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View Full Version : Has the Dwight vs Yao Debate officially ended?



JordansBulls
08-21-2009, 04:56 PM
With Dwight leading his team to the finals and upsetting a top 3 player in the league in the process, has Dwight now officially ended the debate he has had with Yao over the past few years as far as the best center in the league?

td0tsfinest
08-21-2009, 05:03 PM
I think so, with Yao's long line of injuries; Dwight is clearly the better choice. People are even questioning Yao's ability to return to his all-star form

Tmac,lt,berkman
08-21-2009, 05:05 PM
yao is better just injury problems..

blah-blah
08-21-2009, 05:07 PM
yao is terrible

Raph12
08-21-2009, 05:10 PM
With Yao's injury, Dwight's age, Dwight's leadership shown in the playoffs and Dwight's work ethic, he has eclipsed Yao to become the best center in the league. Plus, now he is constantly working on his free throws and short/mid range jumper. Check out the video of Dwight working on his jumpshot:
http://img269.yfrog.com/i/h16.mp4/

Yes most are uncontested, but even if he adds the open jumper to his game, he will be lethal, because you won't be able to give him too much space and when you guard him tightly he can drive by or post up. Plus can you name another center with Dwight's combination of leadership, defensive ability, rebounding/shot blocking and athleticism (leaping ability, power, speed, agility, etc...)? If he adds a short/mid range jumper to his game, develops a short hook and shoots over 70% from the charity stripe, then he will be light years ahead of any center in the NBA.

Durant is hype
08-21-2009, 05:15 PM
Yes.

Mavrix
08-21-2009, 05:24 PM
When healthy

Yao > Dwight

NYKnickFanatic
08-21-2009, 05:30 PM
I honestly think a healthy Yao is better than Dwight.
He can do more things than Dwight when healthy.

But, it seems to be Yao is done. Which makes Dwight the clear favorite.

NYKnickFanatic
08-21-2009, 05:31 PM
yao is terrible

Chris "Rupaul" Bosh is terrible.

Raph12
08-21-2009, 05:40 PM
I honestly think a healthy Yao is better than Dwight.
He can do more things than Dwight when healthy.

But, it seems to be Yao is done. Which makes Dwight the clear favorite.

The only thing Yao does better than Dwight is shoot, which Dwight is working on (link posted in an earlier post above) (I know he won't ever shoot like Yao but that's not the point). Dwight is better in every aspect of the game, except shooting. Better at playing the passing lanes, better rebounder, better blocker, better all-around defender, better dunker, quicker, just as strong if not stronger, faster and is all-around much more athletic than Yao. Like I said before all Yao has over Dwight is his shooting, other than that Dwight is better in every way.

NYKnickFanatic
08-21-2009, 05:45 PM
The only thing Yao does better than Dwight is shoot, which Dwight is working on (link posted in an earlier post above) (I know he won't ever shoot like Yao but that's not the point). Dwight is better in every aspect of the game, except shooting. Better at playing the passing lanes, better rebounder, better blocker, better all-around defender, better dunker, quicker, just as strong if not stronger, faster and is all-around much more athletic than Yao. Like I said before all Yao has over Dwight is his shooting, other than that Dwight is better in every way.

Figures, a Magic fan. :rolleyes:

Defensively, Yao is no match for Dwight.
Dwight is 50 times better than him.

On the offensive end, that is a different story.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-21-2009, 05:51 PM
dwight has always been better, yao is soft

Raph12
08-21-2009, 05:53 PM
Figures, a Magic fan. :rolleyes:

Defensively, Yao is no match for Dwight.
Dwight is 50 times better than him.

On the offensive end, that is a different story.

I'm a fan of the Magic, Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, Cavs, Jazz, Nuggets, Blazers, Hornets and Mavs, but 1st and foremost I'm a fan of the game. Offensively, Yao can only shoot, his lack of offensive moves and poor ballhandling skills were exposed by Portland in the playoffs when they took Yao completely out of his game, forcing others to make plays. Dwight is not better on offense than Yao, I know that, but the gap between them isn't as big or even close to the gap on defense. Like I said before, the only thing Yao does better than Dwight is shoot and you have made no case to support any other attributes that Yao has, that Dwight doesn't.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-21-2009, 05:58 PM
Is that why you have Superman and the Magic lineup in your sig?

Raph12
08-21-2009, 06:00 PM
Is that why you have Superman and the Magic lineup in your sig?

Yup, because the teams I listed are my favs in that order, with the Magic on top. My opinion is still objective, what is Yao better than Dwight at besides shooting? you tell me?

Raps18-19 Champ
08-21-2009, 06:01 PM
Yup, because the teams I listed are my favs in that order, with the Magic on top.

They you must be somewhat biased to the Magic compared to other teams.

Raph12
08-21-2009, 06:06 PM
They you must be somewhat biased to the Magic compared to other teams.

I am a fan of the sport of basketball 1st, the Magic is just my fav team. My opinion is still objective, why don't you tell me in what Yao is better than Dwight at besides shooting?

LakePackYank
08-21-2009, 06:09 PM
when your 7'6 and 2 inches away from the basket while a 5'6 player blocks the **** out of you, you know you suck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svsHlH-IvbY

and people call Pau soft :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
08-21-2009, 06:10 PM
as long as people bring up the "if healthy"argument that makes no sense to me. You either are, or you are not.
There ARE 50 better centers in the NBA right now than Yao. And that is a fact. He can't play, therefore he shouldn't be considered anything

Raps18-19 Champ
08-21-2009, 06:10 PM
Hey I agree that Howard is better.

I was just talking about your other statement when you say you view every team evenly.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-21-2009, 06:11 PM
But I think Yao does have better post moves all around.

zachattach
08-21-2009, 06:15 PM
Anyone have there head to head numbers?

AK23
08-21-2009, 06:15 PM
yao is terrible

thats just like saying bosh is to :drool:

zachattach
08-21-2009, 06:28 PM
Head to head in this past season Yao owned Dwight.

Dwight against Yao - 13 ppg 9.5 rebs 2.5 blks

Yao against Dwight- 21 ppg 14.5 rebs 1.5 blks

This is there averages head to head this past season 2008-2009

LakePackYank
08-21-2009, 06:33 PM
Head to head in this past season Yao owned Dwight.

Dwight against Yao - 13 ppg 9.5 rebs 2.5 blks

Yao against Dwight- 21 ppg 14.5 rebs 1.5 blks

This is there averages head to head this past season 2008-2009

so deron williams beating chris paul everytime they face each other makes deron better?

zachattach
08-21-2009, 06:36 PM
Maybe? ^

Are you going to tell me that if Deron Willaims and CP3 met in the playoffs and Deron Williams outplayed Paul that people wouldn't be questing it? (whether or not Deron is better then CP3 or whether in this case Yao is better or just as good as Howard)

If your so much better then another player shouldn't you do well against them? Im not just talking about once either (not just a one time thing) I'm talking over a long period of time.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2009, 06:43 PM
so deron williams beating chris paul everytime they face each other makes deron better?

that is the basis for pretty much all Jazz fan's argument, yes.

D-Will4Prez
08-21-2009, 06:44 PM
as long as people bring up the "if healthy"argument that makes no sense to me. You either are, or you are not.
There ARE 50 better centers in the NBA right now than Yao. And that is a fact. He can't play, therefore he shouldn't be considered anything
So, by this logic, Kareem = suck because he's old and retired now? Just because somebody isn't able to play now it means they're worse than everyone else? Sorry dude, your logic sucks dude.


so deron williams beating chris paul everytime they face each other makes deron better?

Yes, actually. You go head to head with somebody and kick their *** it means you are better than them.

Raph12
08-21-2009, 06:53 PM
But I think Yao does have better post moves all around.

Meh debatable, Yao's only post move is a fade-away jumper, while Dwight has a running hook, drive by dunk/layup and his famous post-and-dunk

zachattach
08-21-2009, 06:56 PM
Or here let me put it this way, if head to head Yao kicks Dwights ***** (and his team wins) and Yao goes around the league posting big numbers on a nightly basis then he is the better player. I don't think just because you do better then someone head to head once makes you better but i think if you proven over time that you have this guys number and you post big numbers just about every other night too then there's no reason to say your not BETTER.

TO ANSWER THE QUESTION OF THIS THREAD, NOOOOO !!!!!

Raph12
08-21-2009, 07:00 PM
D-Will is not a better PG than CP3, just as Yao is not better than Dwight. 1-on-1 doesn't prove crap, Shaq can post and dunk on almost every center in the league to win a 1-on-1 game, doesn't mean he is better. Dwight is a better center than Yao in terms of who is better, no matter what the head-to-head comparison is.

SC1211
08-21-2009, 07:13 PM
Meh debatable, Yao's only post move is a fade-away jumper, while Dwight has a running hook, drive by dunk/layup and his famous post-and-dunk

Are you kidding me? Dwight has a running hook that is VERY questionable, and dunking. That's it. Yao has some great post moves, spin baseline, fadeaway jumper, hook shot, running hook, spin inside. He has some of the best moves in the league, not to mention the touch to can a great percentage of them. By the way to say Yao was exposed offensively against Portland is a joke. Did you watch game 1 of the series, where Yao played a perfect game against them when they tried to play him one on one? Yao was consistently double and triple teamed (basically raped in the post, but that's another story), leaving Scola and Landry open for jumpers. Even while he's in the game, he doesn't have to score to make an imprint, he makes those around him better. Howard doesn't need a double team. Stick one guy on him and try to keep him outside 5 feet. You HAVE to at LEAST double Yao to stand a chance. He is that good offensively.

Defensively, Howard is better because he is quicker (though Yao is deceptively quick for his height). However, a vastly underrated aspect of Yao's game is his shot altering ability, he's an intimidating presence in the middle, and a pretty good shot blocker. Howard is much better, but it's not like we're talking about Steve Nash vs. Rajon Rondo on defense here. Yao is pretty good, above average, but not great.

And for the love of God, please stop saying your opinion is "objective." Philosophy 101 please.

theimortalone
08-21-2009, 07:15 PM
Maybe if Yao didn't get hurt all the time, it would be another story!

Jambox5000
08-21-2009, 07:24 PM
I think so, with Yao's long line of injuries; Dwight is clearly the better choice. People are even questioning Yao's ability to return to his all-star form

One step beyond that...people are questioning Yao's ability to come back and play, period. Frames that big just can't stay healthy while playing a sport as physically demanding as pro basketball. It's a shame, really.

zachattach
08-21-2009, 07:27 PM
D-Will is not a better PG than CP3, just as Yao is not better than Dwight. 1-on-1 doesn't prove crap, Shaq can post and dunk on almost every center in the league to win a 1-on-1 game, doesn't mean he is better. Dwight is a better center than Yao in terms of who is better, no matter what the head-to-head comparison is.

Really thats the best argument you have? Why does Dwight not do well against Yao? Why does Yao do just fine against Dwight? WHY?

The name of the thread is Dwight VS. Yao
The best way to debate this is them going head to head.

The funny thing is your clearly a Howard fan, while I'm a Laker fan I have no heart in this question. Your clearly biased.

Bausman
08-21-2009, 07:36 PM
Chris "Rupaul" Bosh is terrible.

LOL

No, the New York "Haven't had a decent season since Ewing retired and even then couldnt beat the Bulls" Knicks are terrible. Man your only bright spot is that you guys have the best shot at John Wall next year. Oh wait... you gotta give your pick to Utah. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAH

It will be fun watching 'Rupaul' fighting home court advantage while the Knicks are fighting for second last and cant even blame it on tanking. lol

But I actually hope you guys can get Iverson. You guys are so bad you might be the only team he can come into and take 25 shots a game and still help you win more games.

grega1976
08-21-2009, 07:48 PM
head to head in the 9 meetings...
Yao 23.6 points Howard 12.2
Yao 10.4 rebounds Howard 9.8
Yao 2.11 blocked shots Howard 1.97
Yao FG% .581 Howard .451
Rockets 7 wins Magic 2....
Nuff said!!

Tmac,lt,berkman
08-21-2009, 07:55 PM
yao is terrible

this is a hater for you..

Raph12
08-21-2009, 08:06 PM
Are you kidding me? Dwight has a running hook that is VERY questionable, and dunking. That's it. Yao has some great post moves, spin baseline, fadeaway jumper, hook shot, running hook, spin inside. He has some of the best moves in the league, not to mention the touch to can a great percentage of them. By the way to say Yao was exposed offensively against Portland is a joke. Did you watch game 1 of the series, where Yao played a perfect game against them when they tried to play him one on one? Yao was consistently double and triple teamed (basically raped in the post, but that's another story), leaving Scola and Landry open for jumpers. Even while he's in the game, he doesn't have to score to make an imprint, he makes those around him better. Howard doesn't need a double team. Stick one guy on him and try to keep him outside 5 feet. You HAVE to at LEAST double Yao to stand a chance. He is that good offensively.

Defensively, Howard is better because he is quicker (though Yao is deceptively quick for his height). However, a vastly underrated aspect of Yao's game is his shot altering ability, he's an intimidating presence in the middle, and a pretty good shot blocker. Howard is much better, but it's not like we're talking about Steve Nash vs. Rajon Rondo on defense here. Yao is pretty good, above average, but not great.

And for the love of God, please stop saying your opinion is "objective." Philosophy 101 please.

Lmao, 1st off, Yao's post moves are non-existant with a double team on him which is a big reason why he struggled deeply in the Portland series. Dwight manages to score alot in almost any game no matter what the defense throws at him, yes this is due in part to his sheer athleticism (grabbing offensive rebounds to get put-back dunks), but at the end of the day the point stands, he cannot be shut down. Yao is a shooter, so an off-game can be the difference maker in his offensive stats.

Dwight was double and triple teamed by every team he played against and if you think he doesn't then you obviously don't watch his games. Dwight will drive by or post up any center in the NBA, which is why most coaches get their outside players to help double him. If you only keep Dwight outside 5 feet, it may have worked in the past but now he will hit the open jumper on you. Check out this video where he hits 10 of 13 open mid-range shots.
http://img269.yfrog.com/i/h16.mp4/
I know Yao is a way better shooter, but Dwight is 23 and getting better year-in, year-out.


Really thats the best argument you have? Why does Dwight not do well against Yao? Why does Yao do just fine against Dwight? WHY?

The name of the thread is Dwight VS. Yao
The best way to debate this is them going head to head.

The funny thing is your clearly a Howard fan, while I'm a Laker fan I have no heart in this question. Your clearly biased.

Dwight doesn't do well against Yao because Yao has over half a foot on him, which is also why Yao does well, because he can just shoot over Dwight. Not to mention Houston was a better defensive team (Artest, Battier and Yao made their defense extremely hard to overcome) than Orlando last season. Momentum could be a factor, an off game could be a factor, point is there could be alot of reasons for Dwight not faring well in two games against Yao.

The best way to compare players is not head-to-head. Head-to-head Ilgauskus had better stats than Tim Duncan this season, doesn't mean he is a better player, head-to-head Deron Williams fares better against Paul, doesn't mean he is better. That has got to be one of the stupidest methods of saying which player is better.

Your right I'm a Magic fan, I think my opinion is objective, the only thing Yao has on Dwight is shooting, therefore he is not better. Period.

MAC10TIZZY
08-21-2009, 08:16 PM
...i can see clearly now the debate is gone

kswissdaf
08-21-2009, 08:32 PM
Even when Yao is completely healthy(never) it still isnt even close

Toenail Clipper
08-21-2009, 08:37 PM
I'm a fan of the Magic, Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, Cavs, Jazz, Nuggets, Blazers, Hornets and Mavs, but 1st and foremost I'm a fan of the game. Offensively, Yao can only shoot, his lack of offensive moves and poor ballhandling skills were exposed by Portland in the playoffs when they took Yao completely out of his game, forcing others to make plays. Dwight is not better on offense than Yao, I know that, but the gap between them isn't as big or even close to the gap on defense. Like I said before, the only thing Yao does better than Dwight is shoot and you have made no case to support any other attributes that Yao has, that Dwight doesn't.


First off, you're a bandwagon.
Second, you dont have to make 30508748957423 paragraphs to prove that Dwight is better.
Third, the only thing that makes Dwight better is steroids.
Better offensive skills my ***

Raps18-19 Champ
08-21-2009, 08:42 PM
Meh debatable, Yao's only post move is a fade-away jumper, while Dwight has a running hook, drive by dunk/layup and his famous post-and-dunk

Yao actually has a nice hook shot. He also has soft hands so he can lay it up or bounce it off the glass.

I would trust Yao shooting a hook shot over Howard.

zachattach
08-21-2009, 08:45 PM
head to head in the 9 meetings...
Yao 23.6 points Howard 12.2
Yao 10.4 rebounds Howard 9.8
Yao 2.11 blocked shots Howard 1.97
Yao FG% .581 Howard .451
Rockets 7 wins Magic 2....

So it just happens that Dwight had 9 off games. Do you play basketball? If so when you go up against someone that you think your better then, you go out and play against them and play better then them (out of all 9 times you play against him, you get the better statics all nine times) do you leave the court saying ya he's (the other guy) better then me! do you really do that? put it in perspective.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2009, 08:48 PM
So, by this logic, Kareem = suck because he's old and retired now? Just because somebody isn't able to play now it means they're worse than everyone else? Sorry dude, your logic sucks dude.



Yes, actually. You go head to head with somebody and kick their *** it means you are better than them.


You are talking active players here. No, there isn't a center of Kareem's ability right now. BUT, if you are not playing, you can't be compared to someone actively, which is what I thought we were doing. Are you comparing Yao from game 55 with Dwight now? Fine if you are, but the question is, who is better. And the answer is, the one that plays.

And no, there are 80 other games and then some. You judge a player on his season, not 2 games. Head to head is great, but means little in the scheme of things.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2009, 08:50 PM
Is it wrong of me that I can't get passed the "if healthy" crap??? I am asking honestly. Cause I just don't even see the need to bring the comparison up with Yao done for at least next year. This isn't even about Dwight to me. Hell, Ryan Hollins from the Wolves is currently better than Yao. I just don't get why people even care to argue this with those circumstances in play

Trouble87
08-21-2009, 08:53 PM
I didn't know there was a debate

Yao is the all around better player but he's often injured

Howard is a defensive beast and super athletic but he's not that skilled

without a doubt Yao is the better big man

GCOOKIE7
08-21-2009, 09:07 PM
Dwight Howard is better when Yao is wearing a suit.

JordansBulls
08-22-2009, 01:04 AM
When healthy

Yao > Dwight

That's my point. When is the when healthy matter going to stop? He is never healthy.

_KB24_
08-22-2009, 01:36 AM
Yao is more talented, but Dwight is the better player as of now. I feel sorry for Yao because the poor guys career seems to be on thin ice, while Dwight is seemingly entering or in the prime of his career.

Raph12
08-22-2009, 12:48 PM
Yao is more talented, but Dwight is the better player as of now. I feel sorry for Yao because the poor guys career seems to be on thin ice, while Dwight is seemingly entering or in the prime of his career.

Yao has the skills, Dwight has the sheer athleticism, making him a better center overall. A center's primary stats are rebounds and blocks, two categories Dwight excells in. Not to mention the fact that on offense because of being able to get offensive rebounds and easy baskets, Dwight can score 20 on any given night, whereas Yao can have an off shooting night and score 7. Offensively, Yao is more skilled, but Dwight can fill it up better than Yao can, defensively Yao is lightyears behind Dwight. Yao's career is slipping away, while Dwight is still raw and is only getting better and better. As of now Dwight is the better all-around player, Yao is more skilled offensively. With Dwight constantly working on his offensive game, in 2-3 years, he will eclipse every center in every aspect.

jdricks
08-22-2009, 02:41 PM
Yao is the better shooter and more threating on offense but he is soft and can easily be pushed around and made to play outside himself. While as Dwight is developing more post moves though he already has the hooks jump and running hooks. Offenisvely Yao is better but defensively its not even close. Dwight beats Yao in almost every catergory except offense. If I have to start a team and I need a center that doesnt evrything Im taking DWIGHT because his dominance will be felt day in and day out.

JordansBulls
08-22-2009, 05:38 PM
Yao is more talented, but Dwight is the better player as of now. I feel sorry for Yao because the poor guys career seems to be on thin ice, while Dwight is seemingly entering or in the prime of his career.

:confused:

_KB24_
08-23-2009, 12:09 AM
:confused:

Yao is more talented "skills wise". Dwight relys on his athleticism to play the game, while Yao relys on his skillset. That gap is fading away as Howard is learning other facets of the game.

GSPftw
08-23-2009, 12:54 AM
It's pretty clear that the only person here who thinks Dwight is CLEARLY the better center is a die-hard Dwight fan (/ Magic fan).
Otherwise, everyone agrees that Yao is better on offense, Dwight better on defense. Yao has half a foot on Dwight, making him a little more intimidating for guys to get to the basket on, while Dwight is more athletic and faster than Yao, so he gets a few more blocks.
We can probably all agree that A) NO, this debate is obviously NOT over. And B) despite playing the SAME POSITION, they are VERY DIFFERENT PLAYERS.
Not really any use in COMPARING them, per se. Obviously Yao's recent injuries would scare a lot of owners away from building a franchise around him, but other than that, they are the consensus 2 top centers in the NBA and an owner would simply need to decide if he wants to go scoring with Yao or D with Dwight.
"Debate" over. Goodnight.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2009, 01:00 AM
It's pretty clear that the only person here who thinks Dwight is CLEARLY the better center is a die-hard Dwight fan (/ Magic fan).
Otherwise, everyone agrees that Yao is better on offense, Dwight better on defense. Yao has half a foot on Dwight, making him a little more intimidating for guys to get to the basket on, while Dwight is more athletic and faster than Yao, so he gets a few more blocks.
We can probably all agree that A) NO, this debate is obviously NOT over. And B) despite playing the SAME POSITION, they are VERY DIFFERENT PLAYERS.
Not really any use in COMPARING them, per se. Obviously Yao's recent injuries would scare a lot of owners away from building a franchise around him, but other than that, they are the consensus 2 top centers in the NBA and an owner would simply need to decide if he wants to go scoring with Yao or D with Dwight.
"Debate" over. Goodnight.

the thing is, if I were an owner, I will go ahead and take the dude going for 21/14, over the dude in a suit on the bench that I am paying $16 million.
I can not get past the injury part of this guys. Dwight is head and shoulders above Yao, for the simple reason he actually plays.

GSPftw
08-23-2009, 01:23 AM
yes, thank you.
i believe i addressed that.

J-Relo
08-23-2009, 05:13 AM
Because of that playoff run Dwight became overrated, now as they lost against the Lakers he is going back to somewhere near to his normal rates...

If Yao wasn't injured the debate would be still on...

SteveNash
08-23-2009, 09:15 AM
Is it wrong of me that I can't get passed the "if healthy" crap??? I am asking honestly. Cause I just don't even see the need to bring the comparison up with Yao done for at least next year. This isn't even about Dwight to me. Hell, Ryan Hollins from the Wolves is currently better than Yao. I just don't get why people even care to argue this with those circumstances in play

Well if you're not taking into account who's healthy, then this thread would be pointless as everyone would vote for Howard.

The reason people use that is because you don't know the future. Howard could have a career ending injury today, while Yao could get healthy and never miss a game the rest of his career.

As far as I'm concerned, Yao is clearly better at both ends of the floor when healthy.

If you want to ask who's more likely to have the better career, or who would you rather build your team around, then it would be Howard.

Both of them are second tier centers in an era where the only 1st tier center let himself go and became old.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2009, 11:56 AM
Well if you're not taking into account who's healthy, then this thread would be pointless as everyone would vote for Howard.

The reason people use that is because you don't know the future. Howard could have a career ending injury today, while Yao could get healthy and never miss a game the rest of his career.
As far as I'm concerned, Yao is clearly better at both ends of the floor when healthy.

If you want to ask who's more likely to have the better career, or who would you rather build your team around, then it would be Howard.

Both of them are second tier centers in an era where the only 1st tier center let himself go and became old.


then my boy Al Jefferson would be considered best C. Fine with me. My point is, if you are not playing, the only thing you can be is best dresser.

I just don't see the need to bring up the comparison I guess, when one of them isn't going to play anytime soon. And especially coming off the heals of the other winning DPOY, and leading his team into the finals. But whatever

Raph12
08-23-2009, 12:18 PM
Well if you're not taking into account who's healthy, then this thread would be pointless as everyone would vote for Howard.

The reason people use that is because you don't know the future. Howard could have a career ending injury today, while Yao could get healthy and never miss a game the rest of his career.

As far as I'm concerned, Yao is clearly better at both ends of the floor when healthy.

If you want to ask who's more likely to have the better career, or who would you rather build your team around, then it would be Howard.

Both of them are second tier centers in an era where the only 1st tier center let himself go and became old.

You think Yao is a better defender than Dwight? Now that is one lonely thought, Dwight is the Defensive Player of the Year and probably will be for the next 5 seasons or so (barring injuries), Yao can't keep pace with a snail, on defense Yao is a liability and gets dunked on by everyone, no one is intimidated by Yao's interior defense, whereas the whole league is intimidated by Dwight's interior defense. Dwight can almost touch the top of the backboard when going for blocks, Yao can barely get over the rim. I said it before, Yao is more skilled offensively, but Dwight is lightyears ahead of Yao on the defensive end and only getting better. Dwight uses his athleticism to score, rebound and block, which means he is less likely to have an off-night, whereas if Yao for a 7'6" center isn't that great of a rebounder/shot blocker and if Yao's shots aren't falling he could end up with only 7pts all game. Overall, Dwight is a better center, even without considering injuries, he is the clear-cut choice for any owner to take, not to mention that Dwight is 23 and Yao is 29, Dwight is still on the rise while Yao is starting to hit the decline, so the debate should be over.

Btw yes I am a Magic fan, have been for a while now, but I'm a fan of basketball fan first and foremost. I'd even take Al Jefferson before I'd take Yao at this point in his career (without considering injuries).

Raps18-19 Champ
08-23-2009, 12:53 PM
Dwight is better than Yao.

Is that hard it understand? Screw the healthy stuff. He is usually injured so you can' take he word "healthy" into the conversation.

SC1211
08-23-2009, 01:06 PM
You think Yao is a better defender than Dwight? Now that is one lonely thought, Dwight is the Defensive Player of the Year and probably will be for the next 5 seasons or so (barring injuries), Yao can't keep pace with a snail, on defense Yao is a liability and gets dunked on by everyone, no one is intimidated by Yao's interior defense, whereas the whole league is intimidated by Dwight's interior defense. Dwight can almost touch the top of the backboard when going for blocks, Yao can barely get over the rim. I said it before, Yao is more skilled offensively, but Dwight is lightyears ahead of Yao on the defensive end and only getting better. Dwight uses his athleticism to score, rebound and block, which means he is less likely to have an off-night, whereas if Yao for a 7'6" center isn't that great of a rebounder/shot blocker and if Yao's shots aren't falling he could end up with only 7pts all game. Overall, Dwight is a better center, even without considering injuries, he is the clear-cut choice for any owner to take, not to mention that Dwight is 23 and Yao is 29, Dwight is still on the rise while Yao is starting to hit the decline, so the debate should be over.

Btw yes I am a Magic fan, have been for a while now, but I'm a fan of basketball fan first and foremost. I'd even take Al Jefferson before I'd take Yao at this point in his career (without considering injuries).

Hahaha, you're just losing more and more credibility with each post. When comparing the guys, as you obviously can't really say anything good about Yao, besides jumping on the "he's soft" bandwagon. By the way, if you want to see what "soft" is for Yao, watch the Rockets vs. Lakers series, where Yao refused to be taken out of the game after suffering a knee injury, and then proceeded to play an entire half on a broken foot. Furthermore, stop acting like all Yao can do is shoot. Christ, he's not Ilgauskas or Brad Miller, he's a dominant post player with actual post moves (as a Magic fan, probably not something you're used to seeing), and is DEFINITELY an intimidater on the defensive end. You obviously don't watch Yao, and just jump on "zomg he got blocked by Nate Robinson so he must suck!!!1111" bandwagon, without truly appreciating how good of a player he is.

DitchDat
08-23-2009, 01:07 PM
When healthy

Yao > Dwight

Yao is, however, never healthy, so Dwight > Yao

JordansBulls
08-23-2009, 03:20 PM
Well if you're not taking into account who's healthy, then this thread would be pointless as everyone would vote for Howard.

The reason people use that is because you don't know the future. Howard could have a career ending injury today, while Yao could get healthy and never miss a game the rest of his career.

As far as I'm concerned, Yao is clearly better at both ends of the floor when healthy.

If you want to ask who's more likely to have the better career, or who would you rather build your team around, then it would be Howard.

Both of them are second tier centers in an era where the only 1st tier center let himself go and became old.

How so?

kriviant
08-23-2009, 03:49 PM
Dwight is > than Yao in my opinion, and this is why...

DWIGHT HAS WORKING FEET.

SteveNash
08-23-2009, 06:48 PM
You think Yao is a better defender than Dwight? Now that is one lonely thought, Dwight is the Defensive Player of the Year and probably will be for the next 5 seasons or so (barring injuries), Yao can't keep pace with a snail, on defense Yao is a liability and gets dunked on by everyone, no one is intimidated by Yao's interior defense, whereas the whole league is intimidated by Dwight's interior defense. Dwight can almost touch the top of the backboard when going for blocks, Yao can barely get over the rim. I said it before, Yao is more skilled offensively, but Dwight is lightyears ahead of Yao on the defensive end and only getting better. Dwight uses his athleticism to score, rebound and block, which means he is less likely to have an off-night, whereas if Yao for a 7'6" center isn't that great of a rebounder/shot blocker and if Yao's shots aren't falling he could end up with only 7pts all game. Overall, Dwight is a better center, even without considering injuries, he is the clear-cut choice for any owner to take, not to mention that Dwight is 23 and Yao is 29, Dwight is still on the rise while Yao is starting to hit the decline, so the debate should be over.

Btw yes I am a Magic fan, have been for a while now, but I'm a fan of basketball fan first and foremost. I'd even take Al Jefferson before I'd take Yao at this point in his career (without considering injuries).

The DPOY is a joke and this year was probably the worse DPOY race in NBA history with LeBron coming in second. Watch how quickly Camby got recognized and treated like garbage when people really found out what his defense was all about. Dwight Howard is an idiot on defense, just watch him against good offensive teams and he's left flabbergasted. Just watch Howard against the Lakers in the Finals. Or in the Olympics where CHRIS BOSH had to come in for Howard's poor defense.

You're right about Dwight being a lot faster than Yao, it's just too bad Howard can't guard worth beans when he's on the perimeter neutralizing most of his speed advantage. And it's not like Howard hasn't been dunked on before as Kobe's facial on him was far worse than anything Yao has gotten.

Yao isn't a bad rebounder, the only people who say that are people that think the only thing you need to post good rebounding numbers are height. His block numbers are fine and would be higher if he bit on everything like Howard, he often intimidates people who he's able to stop in the lane.

I already talked about who and owner would take between the two.

Just one more question. If Dwight is really so good, why does Yao murder him whenever they face off against one another?

Because he's better offensively and defensively that's why.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2009, 07:21 PM
The DPOY is a joke and this year was probably the worse DPOY race in NBA history with LeBron coming in second. Watch how quickly Camby got recognized and treated like garbage when people really found out what his defense was all about. Dwight Howard is an idiot on defense, just watch him against good offensive teams and he's left flabbergasted. Just watch Howard against the Lakers in the Finals. Or in the Olympics where CHRIS BOSH had to come in for Howard's poor defense.

You're right about Dwight being a lot faster than Yao, it's just too bad Howard can't guard worth beans when he's on the perimeter neutralizing most of his speed advantage. And it's not like Howard hasn't been dunked on before as Kobe's facial on him was far worse than anything Yao has gotten.

Yao isn't a bad rebounder, the only people who say that are people that think the only thing you need to post good rebounding numbers are height. His block numbers are fine and would be higher if he bit on everything like Howard, he often intimidates people who he's able to stop in the lane.

I already talked about who and owner would take between the two.

Just one more question. If Dwight is really so good, why does Yao murder him whenever they face off against one another?

Because he's better offensively and defensively that's why.


most of your points are invalid. Sorry. The only reason I am responding to this is your owner comment. Yes, and owner would prefer Yao anyday. And that is because 2 billion chinese buy his jerseys, and Yao is a cash cow. Hell, from an owner's perspective, it is basically worth signing Yao to a max deal, and letting him sit on the bench in a suit. Won't win games, but puts money in your pocket.
Dwight is a very good defensive player. His rebound rate is tops in the NBA, meaning, he gets more available rebounds than anyone. Part of defense is making sure they don't get a second shot. And he leads in blocks as well. Yao is very slow footed. Dwight struggles against him, because really, Howard doesn't have very good post moves, and uses his athletisicm to kill people, and the one guy he plays 2 out of 82 games, gives him trouble due to being so huge, but you can't measure a players ability on head to head, ie, a ridiculously tiny percentage of the season. Deron fans will disagree I am sure
Al Jefferson absolutely destroys Yao head to head. DOes that make him better? I guess so by your logic.

Raph12
08-23-2009, 09:23 PM
Hahaha, you're just losing more and more credibility with each post. When comparing the guys, as you obviously can't really say anything good about Yao, besides jumping on the "he's soft" bandwagon. By the way, if you want to see what "soft" is for Yao, watch the Rockets vs. Lakers series, where Yao refused to be taken out of the game after suffering a knee injury, and then proceeded to play an entire half on a broken foot. Furthermore, stop acting like all Yao can do is shoot. Christ, he's not Ilgauskas or Brad Miller, he's a dominant post player with actual post moves (as a Magic fan, probably not something you're used to seeing), and is DEFINITELY an intimidater on the defensive end. You obviously don't watch Yao, and just jump on "zomg he got blocked by Nate Robinson so he must suck!!!1111" bandwagon, without truly appreciating how good of a player he is.

I never once said or implied that Yao was a soft player. Yao is a terrific center when healthy, good offensive player and an avg defensive player. He would be a great franchise center for any team besides Orlando, because they already have Dwight. The only guys who are intimidated by Yao are the opposing centers, because I've seen more than enough guards and forwards take Yao head-on and jam all over his grill (Melo, Kobe, Ginobli, Nene, Dahntay Jones, those are only the ones off the top of my head). The only guy who's really dunked on Dwight head-on was Kobe in Dwight's rookie year when Dwight didn't attempt to jump, trying to draw the charge. Ask any player on any team who they are more afraid to go at and I'm sure everyone will agree that Dwight is the more intimidating of the two. Yao is no doubt a great player and center, but still ranks #2 to Dwight even while healthy.


The DPOY is a joke and this year was probably the worse DPOY race in NBA history with LeBron coming in second. Watch how quickly Camby got recognized and treated like garbage when people really found out what his defense was all about. Dwight Howard is an idiot on defense, just watch him against good offensive teams and he's left flabbergasted. Just watch Howard against the Lakers in the Finals. Or in the Olympics where CHRIS BOSH had to come in for Howard's poor defense.

You're right about Dwight being a lot faster than Yao, it's just too bad Howard can't guard worth beans when he's on the perimeter neutralizing most of his speed advantage. And it's not like Howard hasn't been dunked on before as Kobe's facial on him was far worse than anything Yao has gotten.

Yao isn't a bad rebounder, the only people who say that are people that think the only thing you need to post good rebounding numbers are height. His block numbers are fine and would be higher if he bit on everything like Howard, he often intimidates people who he's able to stop in the lane.

I already talked about who and owner would take between the two.

Just one more question. If Dwight is really so good, why does Yao murder him whenever they face off against one another?

Because he's better offensively and defensively that's why.

LMFAO!!! I don't know where to start... the DPOY award is assigned to the best defensive player in the league and that happened to be Dwight not Yao, Dwight led the league in blocks and rebounds and probably will continue that for the next few years and then you can say that this has been the worst 5 years for the DPOY race.

I watched Howard in the Finals and from what I remember correctly he set a record for most blocks in a game and was never seen "flabbergasted" at all. He finished avging 16ppg, 15+rpg and 4+bpg, which in my mind seems like amazing statistics for any center. Dwight has a 40+ inch vertical and can touch about 13+ feet if not higher, whereas Yao can barely dunk a ball, even if Yao bit on every layup in all 82 games of the season, he still wouldn't lead the league in blocks.

The only time Dwight is on the perimeter is when he is coming off a pick-and-roll, at which time he successfully guards both the picker and the roller simultaneously, often blocking one or the other. Dwight is usually critisized for spending too much time in the key so to say "he on the perimeter neutralizing most of his speed advantage" is a very inaccurate and silly comment to make.

Your right Howard has been dunked on by Kobe, but what you failed to mention is that Dwight didn't jump. Whereas Yao has been posterized by a plethora of players (including Kobe), which I won't even bother getting into detail with.

I never said Yao is a bad rebounder, I said for his length and size his numbers are low. No matter how he plays his numbers won't be any higher, because he simply doesn't have the athleticism to reach another level.

Why does Yao beat Dwight head-to-head? well why does D-Will beat CP3 head-to-head? why does Shaq beat Duncan head-to-head? why does Iverson beat Kobe head-to-head? A head-to-head comparison does NOT make you a better player, CP3 is better than D-Will, Duncan's better than Shaq and Kobe is head-over-heals better than Iverson. If this is your reasoning for who is better, than I am done arguing with you.

JordansBulls
08-23-2009, 10:47 PM
The DPOY is a joke and this year was probably the worse DPOY race in NBA history with LeBron coming in second. Watch how quickly Camby got recognized and treated like garbage when people really found out what his defense was all about. Dwight Howard is an idiot on defense, just watch him against good offensive teams and he's left flabbergasted. Just watch Howard against the Lakers in the Finals. Or in the Olympics where CHRIS BOSH had to come in for Howard's poor defense.

You're right about Dwight being a lot faster than Yao, it's just too bad Howard can't guard worth beans when he's on the perimeter neutralizing most of his speed advantage. And it's not like Howard hasn't been dunked on before as Kobe's facial on him was far worse than anything Yao has gotten.

Yao isn't a bad rebounder, the only people who say that are people that think the only thing you need to post good rebounding numbers are height. His block numbers are fine and would be higher if he bit on everything like Howard, he often intimidates people who he's able to stop in the lane.

I already talked about who and owner would take between the two.

Just one more question. If Dwight is really so good, why does Yao murder him whenever they face off against one another?

Because he's better offensively and defensively that's why.


Except Dwight actually led in Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Blocks, BPG and Rebounding.

SteveNash
08-24-2009, 08:59 AM
most of your points are invalid. Sorry. The only reason I am responding to this is your owner comment. Yes, and owner would prefer Yao anyday. And that is because 2 billion chinese buy his jerseys, and Yao is a cash cow. Hell, from an owner's perspective, it is basically worth signing Yao to a max deal, and letting him sit on the bench in a suit. Won't win games, but puts money in your pocket.
Dwight is a very good defensive player. His rebound rate is tops in the NBA, meaning, he gets more available rebounds than anyone. Part of defense is making sure they don't get a second shot. And he leads in blocks as well. Yao is very slow footed. Dwight struggles against him, because really, Howard doesn't have very good post moves, and uses his athletisicm to kill people, and the one guy he plays 2 out of 82 games, gives him trouble due to being so huge, but you can't measure a players ability on head to head, ie, a ridiculously tiny percentage of the season. Deron fans will disagree I am sure
Al Jefferson absolutely destroys Yao head to head. DOes that make him better? I guess so by your logic.

2 billion Chinese don't buy Yao's jersey every year sorry. Yao is a big deal to the NBA who wants to invest in China in the future, not right now. China may have 1.3 billion but they don't have the buy power close to the US so it really doesn't matter.

Dwight is not a good defensive player, period. He's just not, I've said it before but rebounding is the weakest stat as their's little impact overall whether you have a great rebounder or an slightly above average rebounder like Yao. Besides that, Dwight plays in an easier system to get rebounds playing next to Rashard Lewis.

Al Jefferson does not destroy Yao as badly as Yao destroys Howard. Furthermore, I never said Yao was a great defender or deserved the DPOY, I just know that he's a good, not great defender. My point is that if Howard is really such a great defender, he should be able to stop the best center in the game. Yao getting outplayed by Howard goes back to my point about how Howard and Yao are don't belong in top rate centers in NBA history and are only elevated because there is no great centers left.


LMFAO!!! I don't know where to start... the DPOY award is assigned to the best defensive player in the league and that happened to be Dwight not Yao, Dwight led the league in blocks and rebounds and probably will continue that for the next few years and then you can say that this has been the worst 5 years for the DPOY race.

Did you happen to read my post about Camby? Ask Denver fans how great his defense was.

Do you think LeBron is the second best defensive player in the league?

That Wade is third?

That Chris Paul is a better defender than Kobe?


I watched Howard in the Finals and from what I remember correctly he set a record for most blocks in a game and was never seen "flabbergasted" at all. He finished avging 16ppg, 15+rpg and 4+bpg, which in my mind seems like amazing statistics for any center. Dwight has a 40+ inch vertical and can touch about 13+ feet if not higher, whereas Yao can barely dunk a ball, even if Yao bit on every layup in all 82 games of the season, he still wouldn't lead the league in blocks.

Did you miss the part where Pau had his way with Howard in the Finals? The part where Howard turned the ball over 7 times (twice!), The part where Yao was averaging 20/10 before going down.


The only time Dwight is on the perimeter is when he is coming off a pick-and-roll, at which time he successfully guards both the picker and the roller simultaneously, often blocking one or the other. Dwight is usually critisized for spending too much time in the key so to say "he on the perimeter neutralizing most of his speed advantage" is a very inaccurate and silly comment to make.

No, Howard doesn't often block the "picker and the roller" did you know they're the same person, how much do you actually know about basketball. And would you actually quote what I said?

"Howard can't guard worth beans when he's on the perimeter neutralizing most of his speed advantage."

I never said he spent a lot of time on the perimeter, it's just that when he does he's terrible at it. Dwight with his athleticism should be better at it, but he's not somewhat neutralizing his athleticism advantage over Yao.


Your right Howard has been dunked on by Kobe, but what you failed to mention is that Dwight didn't jump. Whereas Yao has been posterized by a plethora of players (including Kobe), which I won't even bother getting into detail with.

So Howard not jumping means what?


I never said Yao is a bad rebounder, I said for his length and size his numbers are low. No matter how he plays his numbers won't be any higher, because he simply doesn't have the athleticism to reach another level.

How many 7' 6" 300 pounders do you see that are fleet of foot? Yao actually has good athleticism for his size, if he didn't, be with Sun Ming Ming.


Why does Yao beat Dwight head-to-head? well why does D-Will beat CP3 head-to-head? why does Shaq beat Duncan head-to-head? why does Iverson beat Kobe head-to-head? A head-to-head comparison does NOT make you a better player, CP3 is better than D-Will, Duncan's better than Shaq and Kobe is head-over-heals better than Iverson. If this is your reasoning for who is better, than I am done arguing with you.

Because D-Will is better than CP3. Because Shaq is better than Duncan. AI isn't better than Kobe head to head.


Except Dwight actually led in Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Blocks, BPG and Rebounding.

Ask any basketball statistician and they'll all tell how poorly Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Blocks, BPG and Rebounding are at rating a players defense.

PJAF
08-24-2009, 09:31 AM
Yup, it's over.

bogdanrom
08-24-2009, 11:30 AM
If Yao Ming was healthy then yes I wold probably take him over Dwight, the problem is that he's never healthy. I'd rather have a player who can contribute the whole seaon, even though it may not be as much as the other player who plays like half of the season then goes out.
And we always have to take into account how healthy a player is. So because of this Dwight Howard is better than Yao Ming.

JordansBulls
08-24-2009, 12:06 PM
Ask any basketball statistician and they'll all tell how poorly Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Blocks, BPG and Rebounding are at rating a players defense.

And what has Yao done to prove he was better?

PrettyBoyJ
08-24-2009, 12:13 PM
Dwight bought his team all the way to the finals.. Knocking off the Celtics and the cavs.. Yao Jus got his team out the first round after like his 7th season.. And with his injury doubt he will return to his allstar form

Raph12
08-24-2009, 01:44 PM
Dwight bought his team all the way to the finals.. Knocking off the Celtics and the cavs.. Yao Jus got his team out the first round after like his 7th season.. And with his injury doubt he will return to his allstar form

Dwight got his team out after his 4th season and the arguement that Dwight's team has more talent is flawed. Yao had Tmac, Battier, Brooks, Scola and even Artest last season, more than enought to get out of the 1st round; but when does Yao or Tmac ever stay healthy? Can't blame Dwight for being a healthy guy, point is still that he got his team further than Yao will ever take his team. The only way Yao can get to the Finals is if Lebron/Wade/Melo takes him there.


2 billion Chinese don't buy Yao's jersey every year sorry. Yao is a big deal to the NBA who wants to invest in China in the future, not right now. China may have 1.3 billion but they don't have the buy power close to the US so it really doesn't matter.

Yao is considered to be China's biggest celebrity so idk what your getting on. A jersey doesn't cost so much that no Chinese person could afford it, if someone was the pride of my country I would want to represent them in every way I could, I'm sure anyone who is Chinese would agree with me.


Dwight is not a good defensive player, period. He's just not, I've said it before but rebounding is the weakest stat as their's little impact overall whether you have a great rebounder or an slightly above average rebounder like Yao. Besides that, Dwight plays in an easier system to get rebounds playing next to Rashard Lewis.

Lol funny that you think the guy who will be likely to get DPOY for the next 4-5 seasons is not a good defensive player. Not that your opinion means jackshit to anyone or anything but your logic is still flawed which is why I'll bite and address this statement. Dwight plays next to Rashard Lewis yes, but if you watch any games you would see that it is not only Dwight going for rebounds, every player goes for the rebound, but with Dwight's leaping ability he easily gets the ball over his competition.


Al Jefferson does not destroy Yao as badly as Yao destroys Howard. Furthermore, I never said Yao was a great defender or deserved the DPOY, I just know that he's a good, not great defender. My point is that if Howard is really such a great defender, he should be able to stop the best center in the game. Yao getting outplayed by Howard goes back to my point about how Howard and Yao are don't belong in top rate centers in NBA history and are only elevated because there is no great centers left.

Have you watched the Dwight vs Yao games? 90+% of Yao's points come from mid-range jumpers, which are near impossible to block when taken by a 7'6" guy. Which is why I said if Yao's shots don't drop he can have a horrible game easy, whereas Dwight usually relies on his athleticism to score, rebound and block so he is usually more consistant.


Did you happen to read my post about Camby? Ask Denver fans how great his defense was.

Do you think LeBron is the second best defensive player in the league?

That Wade is third?

That Chris Paul is a better defender than Kobe?

I understand where you are going with this, and the DPOY award is given to the player with the most votes by NBA executives, IMO Lebron doesn't deserve to be 2nd, or Wade 3rd or CP3 better than Kobe. But the point stands, my opinion and your opinion is irrelevant, we don't get a vote. Chances are Dwight will continue to lead the defensive stats and get DPOY year-in, year-out for years to come. So you can just continue to be bitter about it.


Did you miss the part where Pau had his way with Howard in the Finals? The part where Howard turned the ball over 7 times (twice!), The part where Yao was averaging 20/10 before going down.

Oh yeah I saw the way Pau had his way with RASHARD LEWIS, seeming as how he was Lewis' assignment in the Finals. Dwight guarded him only when Bynum went out, then Powell went out and then when Mbenga went out. When the lineup was Odom at the 4 and Gasol at the 5 is the only time Dwight guarded Gasol. And Dwight did a great job on him, often getting him to pass the ball away or take a bad shot. Yes Yao had 20-11-1-1-3 (pts-rebs-blks-asts-tos) in 3 games where Dwight had 16-15-2-4-4 (pts-rebs-blks-asts-tos) in 5 games. IMO Dwight did the better job on defense and received more attention than Yao also. Bynum guarded Yao one-on-one and Dwight one-on-one and Dwight 9 times out of 10 destroyed Bynum 36.4fg% and 4.2fpg; whereas Yao left him quite unaffected 58.1fg% and 2.7fpg. All of the other stats were similar, but Dwight guarded him better and beat his defense better than Yao as well often fouling him out. Dwight was often doubled and tripled with Bynum out, whereas Yao was guarded one-on-one by Gasol also.


No, Howard doesn't often block the "picker and the roller" did you know they're the same person, how much do you actually know about basketball. And would you actually quote what I said?

"Howard can't guard worth beans when he's on the perimeter neutralizing most of his speed advantage."

I never said he spent a lot of time on the perimeter, it's just that when he does he's terrible at it. Dwight with his athleticism should be better at it, but he's not somewhat neutralizing his athleticism advantage over Yao.

You know what I meant, "the player who called for the pick and the player rolling towards the rim" happy. Dwight is a center, it is not his job to be on the perimeter to begin with and he knows it. His job is to be an interior presence, when on the perimeter he just feels out of place, but guards the pick-and-roll better than any player in the league. Just ask Igoudala.


So Howard not jumping means what?

It means Howard was trying to draw a charge and that in his rookie season, since then when have you seen Dwight get dunked on? Even thought Dwight bites on everything he never got dunked on once last season, no one had the guts to try. Whereas Yao is often dunked on by alot of guys who just see Yao as an inanimate 7'6" object on their way to their dunk.


How many 7' 6" 300 pounders do you see that are fleet of foot? Yao actually has good athleticism for his size, if he didn't, be with Sun Ming Ming.

How many 7'6" 300 pound guys do I see period? How am I supposed to know if they can move or not. I am saying for his size and athleticism his numbers are low, IMO someone with the size and mobility of Yao should get 12+ rebounds easy.


Because D-Will is better than CP3. Because Shaq is better than Duncan. AI isn't better than Kobe head to head.

D-Will is NOT better than CP3, Shaq is NOT better than Duncan and yes AI takes Kobe in a head-to-head comparison, since 1996 AI has taken Kobe in almost every game they have played against one another. And AI is NOT better than KB24. If you really believe what you are saying in your comment above, then I am done arguing with you.


Ask any basketball statistician and they'll all tell how poorly Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Blocks, BPG and Rebounding are at rating a players defense.

Well it seems to be the best way to find out who the best defender is, when you come up with a better way to decide let us know.

Btw why don't you ask any basketball statistician and they'll tell you how stupid it is to compare players and make a decision about who is better off head-to-head statistics.

rapjuicer06
08-24-2009, 02:54 PM
ooook look at the numbers from last year and this should sum it up. yao ming-19.7 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.9 bpg makes 4.9 free throws a game....dwight howard 20.6 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 2.9 bpg makes 6.4 free throws a game. yao mings shooting % is 54.8 while dwights is 57.2.
and to me, the major kicker yao ming career games played and started in 7 years 480 games played 471 games started averaging 33 mpg. dwight howard in 5 years. 407 played 405 stared averaging 36 mpg. if you go by the numbers, dwight is better than yao. the only thing yao has over dwight, is free throw % and 6 inches, and even there dwight can still get up higher than yao for a rebound as well. so all he has is free throw %, but dwight makes more free throws than yao...so he doesn't even have that

Ace33Bone
08-24-2009, 02:57 PM
When healthy

Yao > Dwight

I agree... the only thing is that Yao has not been 100% in a long time

GSPftw
08-24-2009, 03:36 PM
Raph12,
for the love of god, stop saying dwight is going to be DPOY for the next 4-5 years. You can't know that. Stop acting like a fortune-teller. NBA experts don't even try to predict something like that 5 years in advace. You don't even know what players will be in the NBA 4-5 years from now, or if dwight will even be playing. So please, take a break from your homerism.
And really, it's getting tiresome hearing your biased opinions about your favorite player on your favorite team and then at the end of each of your posts you saying dwight is clearly better, as if you've earned the right to say that with each comment. Just the fact that this thread is still getting posts proves that the debate is still going, therefore dwight is not clearly better. Neither is clearly better. They are the two best C's in the NBC. That's all that can be said.
And everyone talking about Yao's injuries is missing the point of this thread. No one is trying to say that Yao is better than dwight when he's on the bench. That's just stupid. The arguement of who is better than who is in regards to situations where each player is HEALTHY AND PLAYING! When people ask if Kobe is better then Jordan, no one comes on here is is like "Kobe is playing and Jordan isn't, so Kobe must be better!?!omg" If we were using the reasoning, i guess Luke Walton is a better NBA player than Bill Walton since obviously Luke is currently playing.

JordansBulls
08-24-2009, 07:42 PM
Raph12,
for the love of god, stop saying dwight is going to be DPOY for the next 4-5 years. You can't know that.

I think he means a DPOY candidate for the next 4-5 years.

bhooks80
08-24-2009, 08:16 PM
Raph12,
for the love of god, stop saying dwight is going to be DPOY for the next 4-5 years. You can't know that. Stop acting like a fortune-teller. NBA experts don't even try to predict something like that 5 years in advace. You don't even know what players will be in the NBA 4-5 years from now, or if dwight will even be playing. So please, take a break from your homerism.
And really, it's getting tiresome hearing your biased opinions about your favorite player on your favorite team and then at the end of each of your posts you saying dwight is clearly better, as if you've earned the right to say that with each comment. Just the fact that this thread is still getting posts proves that the debate is still going, therefore dwight is not clearly better. Neither is clearly better. They are the two best C's in the NBC. That's all that can be said.
And everyone talking about Yao's injuries is missing the point of this thread. No one is trying to say that Yao is better than dwight when he's on the bench. That's just stupid. The arguement of who is better than who is in regards to situations where each player is HEALTHY AND PLAYING! When people ask if Kobe is better then Jordan, no one comes on here is is like "Kobe is playing and Jordan isn't, so Kobe must be better!?!omg" If we were using the reasoning, i guess Luke Walton is a better NBA player than Bill Walton since obviously Luke is currently playing.

This is probably one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.
Forums are filled with Homers, you might want to get use to it...

Who asks that? (in red)
Seriously, Who asked that?

You can't be for real about this... (in blue)


Before you go and make outlandish observations you might want to ask yourself this...
If a GM was going to start a team for 1 year who would he pick first at the 5,
Howard or Yao?

For what its worth, Howard is only getting better,
If anyone has the ability to be DPOY the next 4 years, my moneys on Dwight.

Raph12
08-25-2009, 12:51 AM
Raph12,
for the love of god, stop saying dwight is going to be DPOY for the next 4-5 years. You can't know that. Stop acting like a fortune-teller. NBA experts don't even try to predict something like that 5 years in advace. You don't even know what players will be in the NBA 4-5 years from now, or if dwight will even be playing. So please, take a break from your homerism.
And really, it's getting tiresome hearing your biased opinions about your favorite player on your favorite team and then at the end of each of your posts you saying dwight is clearly better, as if you've earned the right to say that with each comment. Just the fact that this thread is still getting posts proves that the debate is still going, therefore dwight is not clearly better. Neither is clearly better. They are the two best C's in the NBC. That's all that can be said.
And everyone talking about Yao's injuries is missing the point of this thread. No one is trying to say that Yao is better than dwight when he's on the bench. That's just stupid. The arguement of who is better than who is in regards to situations where each player is HEALTHY AND PLAYING! When people ask if Kobe is better then Jordan, no one comes on here is is like "Kobe is playing and Jordan isn't, so Kobe must be better!?!omg" If we were using the reasoning, i guess Luke Walton is a better NBA player than Bill Walton since obviously Luke is currently playing.

I never said "Dwight WILL win the DPOY award for the next 5 years" I said "he MIGHT win..." big difference. Dwight is on everyone's list for the DPOY next season in the "2009-10 Season Awards" thread and the season has yet to even begin. I'm not guaranteeing it will happen, I'm just saying that his name is up there (in the DPOY chat) and it is a possibility if he continues to progress his game that he may win it multiple times.

I'm sure you meant "they are the 2 best centers in the NBA" but let's move on and talk about Al Jefferson. He should be in that conversation IMO, even when not considering Yao's health, Yao's age is still a factor; Jefferson is 24, while Yao is 29. Jefferson is constantly getting better and better while Yao is on the decline, if I were to choose at this point in their careers I may go with Jefferson (not taking Yao's Chinese popularity into consideration). IMO I'd say Jefferson #2 and Yao #3, and I used to like the Rockets alot and have never been a Minni fan so my opinion there is completely unbiased.

Btw I don't remember addressing Yao's health in any of my posts so stop targeting that and saying people think Dwight is better because of that. People think Dwight is better, Houston fans disagree, end of story.


I think he means a DPOY candidate for the next 4-5 years.

That's exactly what I meant, if he continues to improve his game year-in, year-out there is no stopping this kid.


This is probably one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.
Forums are filled with Homers, you might want to get use to it...

Who asks that? (in red)
Seriously, Who asked that?

You can't be for real about this... (in blue)


Before you go and make outlandish observations you might want to ask yourself this...
If a GM was going to start a team for 1 year who would he pick first at the 5,
Howard or Yao?
For what its worth, Howard is only getting better,
If anyone has the ability to be DPOY the next 4 years, my moneys on Dwight.

Exactly my point, Dwight uses sheer athleticism to get the bulk of his stats (scoring, rebounding, shot blocking), so it is less likely for him to have an off game. His stats of 21pts, 14rebs, 2assts, 3blks and 1stl are unaffected by most teams he plays against. Whereas Yao is inconsistant in most facets of his game (besides his freethrow shooting), if someone wants to win instantly, Dwight is the clear-cut choice.

The runner-up for DPOY was Lebron James last season and quite frankly I can't see much competition league-wide. Barring injuries, Dwight may win DPOY multiple times, the only guy on the horizon to challenge his throne is probably Greg Oden or Chris "Birdman" Anderson (provided the right amount of minutes [his window is closing fast at age 31])

SteveNash
08-25-2009, 08:28 AM
And what has Yao done to prove he was better?

Transforming a garbage defensive team into an elite one, better help defense, and being a true center.


]Yao is considered to be China's biggest celebrity so idk what your getting on. A jersey doesn't cost so much that no Chinese person could afford it, if someone was the pride of my country I would want to represent them in every way I could, I'm sure anyone who is Chinese would agree with me.

The average Chinese makes what, $2000 USD a year? They simply don't have the spending power right now to say Yao is automatic. As I said, Yao is an investment for the future, not now.


Lol funny that you think the guy who will be likely to get DPOY for the next 4-5 seasons is not a good defensive player. Not that your opinion means jackshit to anyone or anything but your logic is still flawed which is why I'll bite and address this statement. Dwight plays next to Rashard Lewis yes, but if you watch any games you would see that it is not only Dwight going for rebounds, every player goes for the rebound, but with Dwight's leaping ability he easily gets the ball over his competition.

It's unlikely that Dwight will get DPOY for the next 4-5 seasons. Go look at past voting history if you don't believe me. As for your other point, if YOU actually watched any games, you'd see Dwight grab a number of uncontested rebounds, and you'd see his teammates leave rebounds for him and trying to leak out to fast break (it's just too bad Dwight's not a good outlet passer).


Have you watched the Dwight vs Yao games? 90+% of Yao's points come from mid-range jumpers, which are near impossible to block when taken by a 7'6" guy. Which is why I said if Yao's shots don't drop he can have a horrible game easy, whereas Dwight usually relies on his athleticism to score, rebound and block so he is usually more consistant.

If Dwight is so good defensively he would be able to guard Yao. Sorry but Yao is 7'6" excuse doesn't work. Dwight Howard lacks to size of a true center. He can't stop Yao from backing him down. He can't shove Yao out of his spots. He doesn't know you to front players effectively.


I understand where you are going with this, and the DPOY award is given to the player with the most votes by NBA executives, IMO Lebron doesn't deserve to be 2nd, or Wade 3rd or CP3 better than Kobe. But the point stands, my opinion and your opinion is irrelevant, we don't get a vote. Chances are Dwight will continue to lead the defensive stats and get DPOY year-in, year-out for years to come. So you can just continue to be bitter about it.

Executives don't vote on DPOY awards, journalist do, they've proven that they don't deserve to vote. It's not an opinion, it's fact.


Oh yeah I saw the way Pau had his way with RASHARD LEWIS, seeming as how he was Lewis' assignment in the Finals. Dwight guarded him only when Bynum went out, then Powell went out and then when Mbenga went out. When the lineup was Odom at the 4 and Gasol at the 5 is the only time Dwight guarded Gasol. And Dwight did a great job on him, often getting him to pass the ball away or take a bad shot. Yes Yao had 20-11-1-1-3 (pts-rebs-blks-asts-tos) in 3 games where Dwight had 16-15-2-4-4 (pts-rebs-blks-asts-tos) in 5 games. IMO Dwight did the better job on defense and received more attention than Yao also. Bynum guarded Yao one-on-one and Dwight one-on-one and Dwight 9 times out of 10 destroyed Bynum 36.4fg% and 4.2fpg; whereas Yao left him quite unaffected 58.1fg% and 2.7fpg. All of the other stats were similar, but Dwight guarded him better and beat his defense better than Yao as well often fouling him out. Dwight was often doubled and tripled with Bynum out, whereas Yao was guarded one-on-one by Gasol also.

The sad thing is that Rashard actually did a better job defending Pau than the "DPOY" Howard did. Once Bynum got sent to the bench Pau was licking his lips wanting to go after Howard and his poor ability to stick to his defensive assignments.


You know what I meant, "the player who called for the pick and the player rolling towards the rim" happy. Dwight is a center, it is not his job to be on the perimeter to begin with and he knows it. His job is to be an interior presence, when on the perimeter he just feels out of place, but guards the pick-and-roll better than any player in the league. Just ask Igoudala.

KG won the DPOY last year and actually deserved it as he was a great inside and outside defender (and he didn't get abused by Pau).


It means Howard was trying to draw a charge and that in his rookie season, since then when have you seen Dwight get dunked on? Even thought Dwight bites on everything he never got dunked on once last season, no one had the guts to try. Whereas Yao is often dunked on by alot of guys who just see Yao as an inanimate 7'6" object on their way to their dunk.

Pretty sure Dwight got dunked on last year. Such as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47VLce11WDM

And Dwight gives up plenty of fouls, pretty soft fouls at that, no way that should have been an and 1.


How many 7'6" 300 pound guys do I see period? How am I supposed to know if they can move or not. I am saying for his size and athleticism his numbers are low, IMO someone with the size and mobility of Yao should get 12+ rebounds easy.

Look at all the 7'6" guys in NBA history, did any of them put up league leading rebounding numbers? Nope. For his size athleticism his numbers are good.


D-Will is NOT better than CP3, Shaq is NOT better than Duncan and yes AI takes Kobe in a head-to-head comparison, since 1996 AI has taken Kobe in almost every game they have played against one another. And AI is NOT better than KB24. If you really believe what you are saying in your comment above, then I am done arguing with you.

Are you talking about all time or as of now? Shaq is better all time than Duncan, Duncan is better now and has beaten Shaq in recent head to heads. Kobe is better than AI throughout their entire head to head. AI has more PPG but is a lot more inefficient scoring the ball. AI has more assists but also has more turnovers. He has more steals but we all know Kobe's the better defender and steals are pretty useless.


Well it seems to be the best way to find out who the best defender is, when you come up with a better way to decide let us know.

Btw why don't you ask any basketball statistician and they'll tell you how stupid it is to compare players and make a decision about who is better off head-to-head statistics.

The better way is to watch the game. I already know the shortcomings of head to head play, that's why you have to watch the matchups and see what's actually going on.

JordansBulls
08-25-2009, 08:30 AM
Transforming a garbage defensive team into an elite one, better help defense, and being a true center.



Yes while Dwight turned his team into the #1 defense.

SteveNash
08-25-2009, 08:38 AM
Yes while Dwight turned his team into the #1 defense.

Two problems with this:

1. It took Dwight several years, coaching changes, and entire revamp of the roster to have the number one defense. While Yao's impact was immediate.

2. You're using defensive rating to claim Dwight turned his team into the #1 defense.

Double_R
08-25-2009, 08:52 AM
The bottom line is Dwight is tuff and Yao is a Pu$$y, Dwight doesn't only block 3 shots a game, he changes another 20 in the process.

Yao is a way better shooter, that is it.

Dwight is more athletic, stronger, a way way way better defender, dunker, rebounder, leader, not to mention he led all centers in steals, he led his team to the Finals, in the game 6 against the cavs he absolutely dominated from start to finish(name one of those for Yao in an important game like that), he set a Finals record with 9 blks, should I go on.

FOBolous
08-25-2009, 10:34 AM
judging by the length of this thread...no, the debate is not over.

Yao Ming

Postive - highly skilled, smart, height, impossible to contain with single coverage, impossible to contain period when he's hot, good shot blocker

Negative - slow lateral movement, can by clumsy due to his height, soft hands, injury prone

Dwight Howard

Postive - great shot blocker, amazing rebounder, amazing athletic ability, strong

Negative - limited post move, easy to defend*, rely on offensive rebounds for point, bad FT shooter, liability in late game situations (hack a shaq)


a lot of people will point to the fact than he averages 20 points to counter the fact that he's easy to defend but 1. he gets most of his points from put backs and 2. he's unstoppable when facing subpar centers but can be taken out easily by above average centers (i.e. rasheed wallace and yao ming).

FOBolous
08-25-2009, 10:52 AM
Transforming a garbage defensive team into an elite one, better help defense, and being a true center.



The average Chinese makes what, $2000 USD a year? They simply don't have the spending power right now to say Yao is automatic. As I said, Yao is an investment for the future, not now.



It's unlikely that Dwight will get DPOY for the next 4-5 seasons. Go look at past voting history if you don't believe me. As for your other point, if YOU actually watched any games, you'd see Dwight grab a number of uncontested rebounds, and you'd see his teammates leave rebounds for him and trying to leak out to fast break (it's just too bad Dwight's not a good outlet passer).



If Dwight is so good defensively he would be able to guard Yao. Sorry but Yao is 7'6" excuse doesn't work. Dwight Howard lacks to size of a true center. He can't stop Yao from backing him down. He can't shove Yao out of his spots. He doesn't know you to front players effectively.



Executives don't vote on DPOY awards, journalist do, they've proven that they don't deserve to vote. It's not an opinion, it's fact.



The sad thing is that Rashard actually did a better job defending Pau than the "DPOY" Howard did. Once Bynum got sent to the bench Pau was licking his lips wanting to go after Howard and his poor ability to stick to his defensive assignments.



KG won the DPOY last year and actually deserved it as he was a great inside and outside defender (and he didn't get abused by Pau).



Pretty sure Dwight got dunked on last year. Such as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47VLce11WDM

And Dwight gives up plenty of fouls, pretty soft fouls at that, no way that should have been an and 1.



Look at all the 7'6" guys in NBA history, did any of them put up league leading rebounding numbers? Nope. For his size athleticism his numbers are good.



Are you talking about all time or as of now? Shaq is better all time than Duncan, Duncan is better now and has beaten Shaq in recent head to heads. Kobe is better than AI throughout their entire head to head. AI has more PPG but is a lot more inefficient scoring the ball. AI has more assists but also has more turnovers. He has more steals but we all know Kobe's the better defender and steals are pretty useless.



The better way is to watch the game. I already know the shortcomings of head to head play, that's why you have to watch the matchups and see what's actually going on.

:clap:

JordansBulls
08-25-2009, 11:50 AM
Two problems with this:

1. It took Dwight several years, coaching changes, and entire revamp of the roster to have the number one defense. While Yao's impact was immediate.

2. You're using defensive rating to claim Dwight turned his team into the #1 defense.

1. Yao had a prime Mcgrady a top 5 player in the league, while Dwight had an overrated Lewis.

2. Well Dwight has actually led in Defensive Rating, Rebounding, blocks, etc. What exactly has Yao led in?

IBleedPurple
08-25-2009, 01:14 PM
With Yao's injury, Dwight's age, Dwight's leadership shown in the playoffs and Dwight's work ethic, he has eclipsed Yao to become the best center in the league. Plus, now he is constantly working on his free throws and short/mid range jumper. Check out the video of Dwight working on his jumpshot:
http://img269.yfrog.com/i/h16.mp4/

Yes most are uncontested, but even if he adds the open jumper to his game, he will be lethal, because you won't be able to give him too much space and when you guard him tightly he can drive by or post up. Plus can you name another center with Dwight's combination of leadership, defensive ability, rebounding/shot blocking and athleticism (leaping ability, power, speed, agility, etc...)? If he adds a short/mid range jumper to his game, develops a short hook and shoots over 70% from the charity stripe, then he will be light years ahead of any center in the NBA.

With your avatar/sig....I can't read anything you post

SC1211
08-25-2009, 01:32 PM
The bottom line: Look at how teams defend each player. Most teams play Howard one on one, while Yao gets clobbered, doubled, tripled and fronted just so he doesn't get the ball. It's not a matter of doubling Yao when he gets the ball, teams don't even want him to touch the ball, because he's that lethal once he gets it, from right under the basket all the way out to 20 feet.

Yao is better offensively, period. One thing that no one has brought up: passing. Yao is an EXCELLENT passer out of the post and on the high post, giving the Rockets versatile options on the offense. Yao has the post moves and footwork (rivaled only by Al Jeff) and is uncontested when it comes to converting that into points, whether it be FT shooting or putting it in the bucket.

Defensively, Dwight is better, I will give you that. But it's not a huge gap, Yao alters a lot of shots, and clogs the lane for smaller guards. Yao holds his own against most centers (especially Dwight) and is above average on shot blocking. Remember that Yao has virtually no vertical leap, and can still pull down boards and block shots better than most centers.

As for rebounding numbers: Yao has excellent rebounders around him in Luis Scola, Chuck Hayes and Carl Landry. Dwight has Rashard Lewis, and Hedo Turkoglu (or did, rather), two sub-par rebounders. Obviously, Dwight's share on his own team is going to be much higher.

Raph12
08-25-2009, 01:41 PM
Transforming a garbage defensive team into an elite one, better help defense, and being a true center.

Yao had arguably the best outside stopper in Shane Battier and a prime Tracy McGrady at his disposal, whereas Dwight didn't have smack. Even in the Finals the only good outside defensive player on his team is Pietrus who comes off the bench. Everyone else is under avg or just avg.

The average Chinese makes what, $2000 USD a year? They simply don't have the spending power right now to say Yao is automatic. As I said, Yao is an investment for the future, not now.

There are more than enough Chinese people around the world, we don't have to think of the Chinese man as someone who is making Nikes in China. Go to Canada and there filled with Chinese guys there to. Their population is so big and distributed around the world, more than enough can purchase a jersey or at the very least put in a vote during the All-Star game.

It's unlikely that Dwight will get DPOY for the next 4-5 seasons. Go look at past voting history if you don't believe me. As for your other point, if YOU actually watched any games, you'd see Dwight grab a number of uncontested rebounds, and you'd see his teammates leave rebounds for him and trying to leak out to fast break (it's just too bad Dwight's not a good outlet passer).

Dwight has the best chance of getting the DPOY until A: Greg Oden develops, B: Chris Anderson gets more game time or C: A new defensive big comes into the NBA. Tell me who you think will get the DPOY award over Dwight next season? Btw you obviously don't watch enough games to say Dwight is alone when getting rebounds because he usually isn't unless the opposing team shoots a 3 and there is no one near him to go for the board. Tell me how Dwight leads the league in offensive rebounds per game? I'm sure the other team doesn't just watch while he jumps for the board also.

If Dwight is so good defensively he would be able to guard Yao. Sorry but Yao is 7'6" excuse doesn't work. Dwight Howard lacks to size of a true center. He can't stop Yao from backing him down. He can't shove Yao out of his spots. He doesn't know you to front players effectively.

Yao has never backed him up, he takes the bulk if not all of his shots from the mid-range. Yao is the only guy he can't guard effectively because Yao is 7'6" and pulls up for mid-range jumpers all the time. Which is why Yao spends some games scoring only 6 or7 pts, because when his shot is not falling he can't produce.

Executives don't vote on DPOY awards, journalist do, they've proven that they don't deserve to vote. It's not an opinion, it's fact.

Well then we should give you their vote because obviously your opinion is so much better than theirs. Tell me something oh great one, who should've beaten Dwight for the DPOY award last season?

The sad thing is that Rashard actually did a better job defending Pau than the "DPOY" Howard did. Once Bynum got sent to the bench Pau was licking his lips wanting to go after Howard and his poor ability to stick to his defensive assignments.

Rashard never did a good job, constantly posted down and scored on. When Dwight was guarding him Gasol barely ever scored. Dwight's game, when he had an NBA record 9 blocks, he had 5 of them on Gasol because Bynum was out the majority of time with foul trouble. Bynum and Gasol both thrived when Yao was guarding them, Bynum shot over 58% against Yao, barely shooting over 36% against Dwight, that should mean something to you

KG won the DPOY last year and actually deserved it as he was a great inside and outside defender (and he didn't get abused by Pau).

KG is WAY overrated defensively, he is a great defender yes, but he has guys like Rondo, Allen, Pierce and Perkins on his team, all great defenders as well. The Celtics should never get recognition for individual awards because on their team, every play is a team effort.

Pretty sure Dwight got dunked on last year. Such as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47VLce11WDM

And Dwight gives up plenty of fouls, pretty soft fouls at that, no way that should have been an and 1.

1st of all, I said last season, not last year, 2nd that is barely a dunk-on, I mean when someone gets crowned head-on. Does the name Anthony Randolph ring a bell to your ears? He jammed all over Yao's **** twice in the same game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GAtyNm8vnE

Btw Dwight avged 3.4 fouls last season in 36mpg, while Yao avged 3.3 fouls in 33mpg. So who gives up more fouls? Do some research first buds, don't just spew silly and false facts out hoping they are true.

Look at all the 7'6" guys in NBA history, did any of them put up league leading rebounding numbers? Nope. For his size athleticism his numbers are good.

Yao has never led the league in rebounding, nor will he. Yao is much more athletic than those guys, which is why for his size and mobility he should get more rebounds. Not even 10rpg, cmon anyone can do better than that.

Are you talking about all time or as of now? Shaq is better all time than Duncan, Duncan is better now and has beaten Shaq in recent head to heads. Kobe is better than AI throughout their entire head to head. AI has more PPG but is a lot more inefficient scoring the ball. AI has more assists but also has more turnovers. He has more steals but we all know Kobe's the better defender and steals are pretty useless.

Duncan is better than Shaq all time (if you want you can get a poll/thread started about that, I'm sure everyone agrees with me), CP3 is better than D-Will since they were drafted and Kobe is better than AI since about 2002. AI scores more point, assists and steals yes, but against Kobe he usually shoots alot better percentages in almost every game before the 2008-09 season.

The better way is to watch the game. I already know the shortcomings of head to head play, that's why you have to watch the matchups and see what's actually going on.

No that's not the best way, to watch their games against one another, the best way to compare them is to compare their stats and games against other teams they play. Ie. How Dwight fares against other teams in the league comared to how Yao fares against them. Head-to-head is much too flawed to make a comparison/decision off. Btw after this season, Yao will be forgotten and not near the shape he is in now, seeming as how he'll be in his 30s, coming off a HUGE injury and not playing for a long time. I'd say if it wasn't over before, it sure as hell will be in 2010.

FOBolous
08-25-2009, 01:59 PM
The bottom line: Look at how teams defend each player. Most teams play Howard one on one, while Yao gets clobbered, doubled, tripled and fronted just so he doesn't get the ball. It's not a matter of doubling Yao when he gets the ball, teams don't even want him to touch the ball, because he's that lethal once he gets it, from right under the basket all the way out to 20 feet.

Yao is better offensively, period. One thing that no one has brought up: passing. Yao is an EXCELLENT passer out of the post and on the high post, giving the Rockets versatile options on the offense. Yao has the post moves and footwork (rivaled only by Al Jeff) and is uncontested when it comes to converting that into points, whether it be FT shooting or putting it in the bucket.

Defensively, Dwight is better, I will give you that. But it's not a huge gap, Yao alters a lot of shots, and clogs the lane for smaller guards. Yao holds his own against most centers (especially Dwight) and is above average on shot blocking. Remember that Yao has virtually no vertical leap, and can still pull down boards and block shots better than most centers.

As for rebounding numbers: Yao has excellent rebounders around him in Luis Scola, Chuck Hayes and Carl Landry. Dwight has Rashard Lewis, and Hedo Turkoglu (or did, rather), two sub-par rebounders. Obviously, Dwight's share on his own team is going to be much higher.

:clap:

king4day
08-25-2009, 03:10 PM
If Yao didn't get hurt last playoffs, we might have been talking about the Rockets in the finals too.
Unfortunately we'll probably never know. Yao is a freak of nature who devotes too much into his country. That played a big part into why he's hurt year in year out.
If we have both in their prime and healthy, I take Yao every time. Outside of being slow, he has all the tools to be a hall of famer.
Howards great, but until he learns to shoot, he can't be compared to Yao IMO.

Verbal Christ
08-25-2009, 06:17 PM
No that's not the best way, to watch their games against one another, the best way to compare them is to compare their stats and games against other teams they play. Ie. How Dwight fares against other teams in the league comared to how Yao fares against them. Head-to-head is much too flawed to make a comparison/decision off. Btw after this season, Yao will be forgotten and not near the shape he is in now, seeming as how he'll be in his 30s, coming off a HUGE injury and not playing for a long time. I'd say if it wasn't over before, it sure as hell will be in 2010.

what do you want to bet that not only yao comes back, but he's also able to lure a top flight free agent making the rockets one year hiatus all the more sweet, maybe add a top 5 pick into the mix while we're at it. see you're just another basketball dork, who carries his ball around and reads too much hoopsworld, yao is already in a gym, being asked to tone it down, yao said he would be ready in 6 months, but brass suggested that he sit it out, this surgery is almost identical to what big z had in cleveland, both guys are of relative size, and Z is playing some if his best basketball. please get your ***** together before posting, because some people out there actually know what the **** is going on.


I'd say if it wasn't over before, it sure as hell will be in 2010

this guy is a joke. if it wasnt over before how? by being one of the 4 double/double guys, oooookay. clown.

ManRam
08-25-2009, 06:33 PM
I argued for Yao as recently as a couple months ago.

But I think that Yao getting injured, yet again, ends the debate.

Dwight will never be as talented as Yao....ever. But his athleticism, and Yao's injury-proneness would lead me to take Dwight over Yao any day of the week now.

clutchski
08-25-2009, 07:19 PM
The only thing for me is that Yao is less athletic and is now very inured, but he is so much of a better shooter and that stands out to me.

Raph12
08-25-2009, 08:46 PM
what do you want to bet that not only yao comes back, but he's also able to lure a top flight free agent making the rockets one year hiatus all the more sweet, maybe add a top 5 pick into the mix while we're at it. see you're just another basketball dork, who carries his ball around and reads too much hoopsworld, yao is already in a gym, being asked to tone it down, yao said he would be ready in 6 months, but brass suggested that he sit it out, this surgery is almost identical to what big z had in cleveland, both guys are of relative size, and Z is playing some if his best basketball. please get your ***** together before posting, because some people out there actually know what the **** is going on.



this guy is a joke. if it wasnt over before how? by being one of the 4 double/double guys, oooookay. clown.

Lol good to know we're going into gambling territory now. I'll take your bet, not Lebron (will likely re-sign), Wade (will likely re-sign), Bosh (re-sign with TO or join Wade in Miami seems most likely), nor Amare (NY seems likely) will want to come to Houston. The only shot they got is at Rudy Gay which I don't really care for, you can take him.

I actually have followed the NBA for the last 20+ years (via game tapes my father recorded [he was a HUGE fan of the sport]), seeing great players like: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Malone, Payton, Shaq, Iverson, Kobe and now Lebron play. I know what I'm talking about when I say Dwight is a better overall player than Yao.

It is irrelevant to me whether Yao is in a gym training or not, my point wasn't that Yao won't be as good as he was before (even though he likely won't be), my point was that Dwight will have more training and experience under his belt and with his work ethic he'll eclipse Yao in almost every aspect.

Dwight has been a double-double guy since he's entered the league, missing only 3 games (all last season) in 5 seasons, playing 36mpg and getting better and better each year. Yao has been a double-double guy only twice in his career and he's missed 93 games in 7 seasons, playing only 33mpg and is now going to miss an entire season. No matter what Yao does he can't avoid his injury-prone nature and that is another thing that's going to be a factor in the conversation in 2010.

Btw I was never rude or impolite, so watch your tongue kid. I doubt if we met face-to-face that you could back up your insults, it is very easy to insult someone behind a monitor screen.

Tommyh1331
08-25-2009, 09:07 PM
Give me Dwight freakin Howard any day of the week over Yao can't stay healthy Ming!

Verbal Christ
08-26-2009, 06:02 PM
Lol good to know we're going into gambling territory now. I'll take your bet, not Lebron (will likely re-sign), Wade (will likely re-sign), Bosh (re-sign with TO or join Wade in Miami seems most likely), nor Amare (NY seems likely) will want to come to Houston. The only shot they got is at Rudy Gay which I don't really care for, you can take him.

I actually have followed the NBA for the last 20+ years (via game tapes my father recorded [he was a HUGE fan of the sport]), seeing great players like: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Malone, Payton, Shaq, Iverson, Kobe and now Lebron play. I know what I'm talking about when I say Dwight is a better overall player than Yao.

It is irrelevant to me whether Yao is in a gym training or not, my point wasn't that Yao won't be as good as he was before (even though he likely won't be), my point was that Dwight will have more training and experience under his belt and with his work ethic he'll eclipse Yao in almost every aspect.

Dwight has been a double-double guy since he's entered the league, missing only 3 games (all last season) in 5 seasons, playing 36mpg and getting better and better each year. Yao has been a double-double guy only twice in his career and he's missed 93 games in 7 seasons, playing only 33mpg and is now going to miss an entire season. No matter what Yao does he can't avoid his injury-prone nature and that is another thing that's going to be a factor in the conversation in 2010.

Btw I was never rude or impolite, so watch your tongue kid. I doubt if we met face-to-face that you could back up your insults, it is very easy to insult someone behind a monitor screen.

yea great another eThug cyber gangsta, trust me bro if this convo was face to face it aint nothin' but a thing. shows how much you know when the rockets are well known for making splashes via trade or free agency and you reach into your bag of tricks and give personal opinions on why YOU think certain players wouldnt come here, but trust this 'dog' its all about the benji's, and we are gonna have plenty of them to make it rain, and the current roster isnt quiet chopped liver either. since you're such a learned basketball man, watching tape of the last two decades yada,yada,yada (never mentioning one of the best centers all time who just so happened to be a rocket so yea i think i know good post play when i see it) look at the truly great centers, compare them to today's, who has the most rounded game similar to those guys, no 5 in today's game even comes close to dream,ewing,shaq,duncan,robinson, i could go on and on, but the guy who does come closest IMO is yao, the NBA has been littered with 'freaks' that could jump out of the gym, dunk hard whatever, but its no big secret what dwight is gonna do, and if he had better center competition i doubt he would be close, and its no coincidence that dwight sucks balls against yao, EVERY TIME they play. IMO dwights numbers are reflective of the lack of truly great C play in both conferences, i mean its a guards world right now and i dont think anyone would argue, and no its not dwights fault of course he has to capitolize but judge the talent, the overall skill set, dont go on potential, athleticism etc... dwight could become one of the greatest of all time, when? how about when he can hit an open ten footer, or become a factor late in games and at the line, you know the things truly great players do. so if you want to give dwight the durability award go ahead, yea i cant argue the fact that yao gets hurt alot, and im sure yao plans it out, and plays a whole game on a broken foot because he's soft. he'll be back, the rockets will be back ... faster than most think.

Raph12
08-26-2009, 11:29 PM
yea great another eThug cyber gangsta, trust me bro if this convo was face to face it aint nothin' but a thing. shows how much you know when the rockets are well known for making splashes via trade or free agency and you reach into your bag of tricks and give personal opinions on why YOU think certain players wouldnt come here, but trust this 'dog' its all about the benji's, and we are gonna have plenty of them to make it rain, and the current roster isnt quiet chopped liver either. since you're such a learned basketball man, watching tape of the last two decades yada,yada,yada (never mentioning one of the best centers all time who just so happened to be a rocket so yea i think i know good post play when i see it) look at the truly great centers, compare them to today's, who has the most rounded game similar to those guys, no 5 in today's game even comes close to dream,ewing,shaq,duncan,robinson, i could go on and on, but the guy who does come closest IMO is yao, the NBA has been littered with 'freaks' that could jump out of the gym, dunk hard whatever, but its no big secret what dwight is gonna do, and if he had better center competition i doubt he would be close, and its no coincidence that dwight sucks balls against yao, EVERY TIME they play. IMO dwights numbers are reflective of the lack of truly great C play in both conferences, i mean its a guards world right now and i dont think anyone would argue, and no its not dwights fault of course he has to capitolize but judge the talent, the overall skill set, dont go on potential, athleticism etc... dwight could become one of the greatest of all time, when? how about when he can hit an open ten footer, or become a factor late in games and at the line, you know the things truly great players do. so if you want to give dwight the durability award go ahead, yea i cant argue the fact that yao gets hurt alot, and im sure yao plans it out, and plays a whole game on a broken foot because he's soft. he'll be back, the rockets will be back ... faster than most think.

I'd like to see you back up your big words in person, doubt you'll make me sweat. Alot of talk, Yao WILL be back, the rockets WILL be back, don't know if you can predict the future but if so, why don't you let me in on tomorrows lotto numbers? The "benjis" is something that the Cavs will have to offer Lebron, the Heat will have to offer Wade, the Raptors and Heat will have to offer Bosh and the Suns and Knicks will have to offer Amare, not to forget New Jersey and some other potential suitors (Houston included). Why on earth would any of these guys leave their contender teams to play with a injury-prone, broken-down Yao (injured every other season) who we don't even know can bounce back or not yet? The current Rockets roster is a less-than-average team which is not likely to make the playoffs. Right now you got Aaron Brooks (I like this guy), Shane Battier, Trevor Ariza, Luis Scola and ??? at center, a lineup which won't even be able to fight against a team like Utah or New Orleans, let alone LA, San Antonio, Orlando, Boston or Cleveland. Yes I forgot Hakeem Olajuwan and Tim Duncan I know, I was just naming the 1st guys that came to my mind, btw Duncan was a PF until just recently. Yao is more skilled than Dwight offensively, no doubt, but Dwight is a more consistant player (on offense and defense) because he relies on his athleticism for his stats not his jumper. Dwight will get you 20-15-3 on any night you want it from him, I wouldn't be able to make the same claim about Yao, he will get you 20-10-2 at best give or take 5 points and that inconsistantly (relying on his jumper usually costs him some games), to me Dwight is more consistant, doesn't need alot of touches to score and is a force/presence on defense, which is why I'd take him over Yao. Like I said before Yao is more skilled, but I'll take offensive potential/defensive force at 23, over declining but skilled 29 anyday.

As for open 10 footers, watch this video:
http://img269.yfrog.com/i/h16.mp4/

As for late game free throw shooting, watch the Magic-Cavs series and observe while Dwight out-shoots Lebron at the line in the clutch.

SteveNash
08-27-2009, 07:08 AM
Well time to wind this thread down but I'll respond a bit more.


1. Yao had a prime Mcgrady a top 5 player in the league, while Dwight had an overrated Lewis.

2. Well Dwight has actually led in Defensive Rating, Rebounding, blocks, etc. What exactly has Yao led in?

1. Yao did it before McGrady. When he had Stevie Franchise and Cat Mobley. When they were traded, Orlando's defense was still garbage.

2. I was arguing about Orlando's team defense. We have already been through Dwight's individual numbers.


Yao had arguably the best outside stopper in Shane Battier and a prime Tracy McGrady at his disposal, whereas Dwight didn't have smack. Even in the Finals the only good outside defensive player on his team is Pietrus who comes off the bench. Everyone else is under avg or just avg.

See above with Francis/Mobley.


There are more than enough Chinese people around the world, we don't have to think of the Chinese man as someone who is making Nikes in China. Go to Canada and there filled with Chinese guys there to. Their population is so big and distributed around the world, more than enough can purchase a jersey or at the very least put in a vote during the All-Star game

Small minorities throughout the world yes.


Dwight has the best chance of getting the DPOY until A: Greg Oden develops, B: Chris Anderson gets more game time or C: A new defensive big comes into the NBA. Tell me who you think will get the DPOY award over Dwight next season? Btw you obviously don't watch enough games to say Dwight is alone when getting rebounds because he usually isn't unless the opposing team shoots a 3 and there is no one near him to go for the board. Tell me how Dwight leads the league in offensive rebounds per game? I'm sure the other team doesn't just watch while he jumps for the board also.

D: KG gets healthy again. E: He has a down year. F: Media catches on that he's not a great defender. G: He focuses more on offense.

I'd say over half Dwight's boards went uncontested.


Yao has never backed him up, he takes the bulk if not all of his shots from the mid-range. Yao is the only guy he can't guard effectively because Yao is 7'6" and pulls up for mid-range jumpers all the time. Which is why Yao spends some games scoring only 6 or7 pts, because when his shot is not falling he can't produce.

Never? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFppQfs75Ro


Well then we should give you their vote because obviously your opinion is so much better than theirs. Tell me something oh great one, who should've beaten Dwight for the DPOY award last season?

I would do away with the awards as basketball is a team sport.


Rashard never did a good job, constantly posted down and scored on. When Dwight was guarding him Gasol barely ever scored. Dwight's game, when he had an NBA record 9 blocks, he had 5 of them on Gasol because Bynum was out the majority of time with foul trouble. Bynum and Gasol both thrived when Yao was guarding them, Bynum shot over 58% against Yao, barely shooting over 36% against Dwight, that should mean something to you

Bynum shot 58% against the Rockets. He shot 7-14 against Yao coming off the bench. 14 shots is a very weak sample size to to determine whether or not Yao is a good defender.

As for Dwight guarding Pau, he had one good defensive game in game 4 and even then it's not likely he shut down Pau. Now look at the rest of the series. Or look at the other end where Pau shut down Howard and forced him to give up 7 turnover and 5-12 shooting.


KG is WAY overrated defensively, he is a great defender yes, but he has guys like Rondo, Allen, Pierce and Perkins on his team, all great defenders as well. The Celtics should never get recognition for individual awards because on their team, every play is a team effort.

And they couldn't even stop the Bulls this year. I could almost see you using this argument last year, but this year after Garnett went out, KG proved he means the most to their defense. You're also forgetting that Boston was a hell of a lot better on defense last year than Orlando was this year.


1st of all, I said last season, not last year, 2nd that is barely a dunk-on, I mean when someone gets crowned head-on. Does the name Anthony Randolph ring a bell to your ears? He jammed all over Yao's **** twice in the same game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GAtyNm8vnE

I don't remember every dunk ever made against every player. I'm sure Dwight's been dunked on last year, and to act like Yao is bad defensively because he gets dunked on is ignorant. Name any great defender in NBA history, they've all been dunked on.


Btw Dwight avged 3.4 fouls last season in 36mpg, while Yao avged 3.3 fouls in 33mpg. So who gives up more fouls? Do some research first buds, don't just spew silly and false facts out hoping they are true.

The point I was making was that Dwight isn't some shot blocking god that everyone fears. People have attacked him and the fouls are proof as I'm pretty sure they're not all offensive fouls. If everyone was truly intimidated like you said, then he shouldn't be picking up defensive fouls.


Yao has never led the league in rebounding, nor will he. Yao is much more athletic than those guys, which is why for his size and mobility he should get more rebounds. Not even 10rpg, cmon anyone can do better than that.

Bradley was athletic for his size. Yao rebounding is fine, you just clearly don't know what it takes to be a good rebounder.


Duncan is better than Shaq all time (if you want you can get a poll/thread started about that, I'm sure everyone agrees with me), CP3 is better than D-Will since they were drafted and Kobe is better than AI since about 2002. AI scores more point, assists and steals yes, but against Kobe he usually shoots alot better percentages in almost every game before the 2008-09 season.

If Duncan won that poll it was because people didn't see Shaq in his earlier and are thinking more about the overweight player running his mouth in the twilight of his career.

Iverson shoots 39.1% against Kobe. Though that might be a good percentage for AI, I'm not really sure.

mikantsass
08-27-2009, 08:32 AM
Well Dwight's whole offense is dunk put backs so clearly Yao is better on the offensive end. But I'd still rather have Dwight, you dont see him getting dunked on by players that are half his size. But No, the debate is not over

Raph12
08-27-2009, 02:18 PM
Well time to wind this thread down but I'll respond a bit more.



1. Yao did it before McGrady. When he had Stevie Franchise and Cat Mobley. When they were traded, Orlando's defense was still garbage.

2. I was arguing about Orlando's team defense. We have already been through Dwight's individual numbers.

Like I said before, even today Orlando's oustide defense is lackluster, the only good outside defender on the Magic rost is Mickael Pietrus (now Matt Barnes is added)

See above with Francis/Mobley.

Yao came into the league at the age of 23, having already played 5 years professionally as a member of the Shanghai Sharks. Dwight came into the league when he was 17, if anything we should compare Yao's impact as a rookie in the NBA, to Dwight's current impact seeming as how they were the same age. I'm not saying Dwight's defense as a rookie was better than Yao's as a rookie. I'm saying Dwight's current defense is better than Yao's current defense.

Small minorities throughout the world yes.

Go to Toronto, Canada and then tell me they have a "small minority" they have more Asians in TO than we (USA) do in any city. Btw I'm not just saying this because of one visit, I have a home in TO and constantly travel there and back.

D: KG gets healthy again. E: He has a down year. F: Media catches on that he's not a great defender. G: He focuses more on offense.

I'd say over half Dwight's boards went uncontested.

KG is as good as done, even if he makes a full recovery and plays the same way as he did in 2007-08, if Dwight has a repeat performance then Dwight will still win DPOY. Dwight's stats will only go down if he gets lazy or is injured, his focusing on offense will not make that much of a difference in his stats. Dwight would often carry the load on offense against teams with smaller frontcourts and still put up great defensive stats (rebs, blks, stls). The media thing is just funny to me, Dwight is clearly a great defender in anyone's eyes, besides yours of course. Every Rockets fan who has backed up Yao can still admit Dwight is a better defender than Yao is.

Never? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFppQfs75Ro

Obviously I exaggerate when I say never, but if you play the sport you know that once your in a bad rhythem, it's hard to turn things around, frustration sinks in and you start to play worse. Taking a collection of good plays from the Yao vs Dwight game and making a montage is just silly. Anyone can take a bunch of good plays from a game and make a video out of it and call it domination.

I would do away with the awards as basketball is a team sport.

Your right basketball is a team sport, but recognizing a players efforts and rewarding them with an award is still good in my books. Ie. Danny Granger worked really hard and improved his game drastically last season and was rewarded with the recognition of the MIP award.

Bynum shot 58% against the Rockets. He shot 7-14 against Yao coming off the bench. 14 shots is a very weak sample size to to determine whether or not Yao is a good defender.

As for Dwight guarding Pau, he had one good defensive game in game 4 and even then it's not likely he shut down Pau. Now look at the rest of the series. Or look at the other end where Pau shut down Howard and forced him to give up 7 turnover and 5-12 shooting.

I never said he shut down Pau, I said he played him alot better than Shard did. Pau did not guard Dwight one-on-one, the only guy who did that on the Lakers was Bynum and when Bynum did Dwight schooled him. The Lakers often double and tripled Dwight as soon as he beat Pau/Powell/Mbenga often causing turnovers as Dwight is not a great ball handler yet (although he is pretty good for a center) and that is just good team defense.

And they couldn't even stop the Bulls this year. I could almost see you using this argument last year, but this year after Garnett went out, KG proved he means the most to their defense. You're also forgetting that Boston was a hell of a lot better on defense last year than Orlando was this year.

"they couldn't stop the Bulls this year?" if your saying that because the series went to 7 games, then my friend you need to go back and do some research. The Celtics-Hawks series went to 7 games and the Celtics-Cavs series went to 7 games. The fact that the Bulls-Celtics series went 7 games is pretty standard in Boston's case. 1st of all, they were lacking KG's defense at the 4; 2nd, Chicago is a younger team who outran Celts and played harder than the Celts all series. The fact that the Hawks series went 7 games is sad, seeming as how they were better this season and eliminated by the Cavs in 4. Boston is a better defensive team than Orlando; Rondo is better than Nelson, Allen is better than Lee, Pierce better than Hedo, Garnett better than Lewis but the difference is at the center, Dwight is WAY better than Perkins. Boston is loaded with good defenders, if Dwight was traded for KG, Boston would be favs to win the next 3 titles easy.

I don't remember every dunk ever made against every player. I'm sure Dwight's been dunked on last year, and to act like Yao is bad defensively because he gets dunked on is ignorant. Name any great defender in NBA history, they've all been dunked on.

I never said Yao is bad defensively and I certainly don't think that a "dunk-on" would make anyone any worse a defender. I said guys are not intimidated in the slightest against Yao, they charge at him without a second thought. Being dunked on doesn't make you a worse defender, but having it happen over and over means that guys are not intimidated by you.

The point I was making was that Dwight isn't some shot blocking god that everyone fears. People have attacked him and the fouls are proof as I'm pretty sure they're not all offensive fouls. If everyone was truly intimidated like you said, then he shouldn't be picking up defensive fouls.

I never said he was a god lol, I'm just saying the fact that he can touch 13+ feet tends to intimidate players from driving. I'm not saying no one tries to drive on him, I'm saying that the thought of being blocked stays in the back of their minds. Btw he gets foul calls while guarding other centers regularly also.

Bradley was athletic for his size. Yao rebounding is fine, you just clearly don't know what it takes to be a good rebounder.

Yao is very agile for his size and length moreso than Bradley I'm sure you agree, Yao just needs to get into the right spot at the right time. Keeping that in mind, I'd expect Yao to avg 12 rebounds and 3 blocks.

If Duncan won that poll it was because people didn't see Shaq in his earlier and are thinking more about the overweight player running his mouth in the twilight of his career.

Iverson shoots 39.1% against Kobe. Though that might be a good percentage for AI, I'm not really sure.

I saw Shaq in his earlier days and Duncan still surpasses him in every aspect of the game. Shaq was a more dominant player yes, but only because of the rules, or lack there of, at the time (no 5 secs back-to-the-basket or 3 secs in-the-key). Olajuwan showed Shaq's lack of game in the Finals, when he played him better than I've seen anyone play him before. Duncan is the next guy, who just like the Dream, plays Shaq well on defense and gets his own against him on offense. Duncan is better in any facet of the game and that on both ends. Where did you get the AI shoots 39.1% against Kobe? I've seen games where AI shoots 65+% and scores 50+points. Show me where you got these stats from, you wouldn't happen to be making stats up again would you? ;)

azkarraga
08-27-2009, 02:24 PM
i don't care who's better by what standars; i can only say i enjoy more watching a healthy yao playing than a healthy DH.

jimbobjarree
08-27-2009, 03:02 PM
d12s got this

SteveNash
08-27-2009, 03:28 PM
Like I said before, even today Orlando's oustide defense is lackluster, the only good outside defender on the Magic rost is Mickael Pietrus (now Matt Barnes is added)

Who was the elite shutdown perimeter defender on Houston before McGrady got there? Jim Jackson? Dwight has the luxury of having a good defender at every position unlike Yao.


Go to Toronto, Canada and then tell me they have a "small minority" they have more Asians in TO than we (USA) do in any city. Btw I'm not just saying this because of one visit, I have a home in TO and constantly travel there and back.

Toronto is a very diverse city, doesn't mean the whole makeup of Canada is the same. 4% of Canada is not huge and not enough to support Yao based on fan base alone. If he did, Houston would be generation more than $156 million last year.


KG is as good as done, even if he makes a full recovery and plays the same way as he did in 2007-08, if Dwight has a repeat performance then Dwight will still win DPOY. Dwight's stats will only go down if he gets lazy or is injured, his focusing on offense will not make that much of a difference in his stats. Dwight would often carry the load on offense against teams with smaller frontcourts and still put up great defensive stats (rebs, blks, stls). The media thing is just funny to me, Dwight is clearly a great defender in anyone's eyes, besides yours of course. Every Rockets fan who has backed up Yao can still admit Dwight is a better defender than Yao is.

KG proved to be the better defender and should have the better defensive team. Most good defenders realize there is more to defense than just block shots and as such, their stats go down. People are wrong all the time. Just because you're in the majority doesn't make something true.


Obviously I exaggerate when I say never, but if you play the sport you know that once your in a bad rhythem, it's hard to turn things around, frustration sinks in and you start to play worse. Taking a collection of good plays from the Yao vs Dwight game and making a montage is just silly. Anyone can take a bunch of good plays from a game and make a video out of it and call it domination.

Notice how you completely ignored the rest of my post. If Yao is only going to shoot jump shots, than Howard needs to do a better job shoving Yao out of his spots, instead of letting Yao catch the ball wherever he wants. That's just bad defense and that's why Dwight is not a great defender.


Your right basketball is a team sport, but recognizing a players efforts and rewarding them with an award is still good in my books. Ie. Danny Granger worked really hard and improved his game drastically last season and was rewarded with the recognition of the MIP award.

The reward is making yourself better and in turn making your team better.


I never said he shut down Pau, I said he played him alot better than Shard did. Pau did not guard Dwight one-on-one, the only guy who did that on the Lakers was Bynum and when Bynum did Dwight schooled him. The Lakers often double and tripled Dwight as soon as he beat Pau/Powell/Mbenga often causing turnovers as Dwight is not a great ball handler yet (although he is pretty good for a center) and that is just good team defense.

Saying Pau barely ever scored against Howard seems like you're saying he got shut down. Pau for the most part played Howard straight up, and did a better job defending Dwight 1 on 1 than Dwight did defending Pau 1 on 1.


"they couldn't stop the Bulls this year?" if your saying that because the series went to 7 games, then my friend you need to go back and do some research. The Celtics-Hawks series went to 7 games and the Celtics-Cavs series went to 7 games. The fact that the Bulls-Celtics series went 7 games is pretty standard in Boston's case. 1st of all, they were lacking KG's defense at the 4; 2nd, Chicago is a younger team who outran Celts and played harder than the Celts all series. The fact that the Hawks series went 7 games is sad, seeming as how they were better this season and eliminated by the Cavs in 4. Boston is a better defensive team than Orlando; Rondo is better than Nelson, Allen is better than Lee, Pierce better than Hedo, Garnett better than Lewis but the difference is at the center, Dwight is WAY better than Perkins. Boston is loaded with good defenders, if Dwight was traded for KG, Boston would be favs to win the next 3 titles easy.

Taking overtime out of the equation, Boston held Atlanta to 87 points last year. While giving up 98 points a game in regulation. Going 7 games in both series is irrelevant. The fact is they had trouble stopping Chicago this year, while they didn't have trouble defender Atlanta, Cleveland, Detroit or Boston this year.


I never said Yao is bad defensively and I certainly don't think that a "dunk-on" would make anyone any worse a defender. I said guys are not intimidated in the slightest against Yao, they charge at him without a second thought. Being dunked on doesn't make you a worse defender, but having it happen over and over means that guys are not intimidated by you.

In the Randolph clip you posted, his first dunk, Yao was going to block it, he intimidated Randolph and forced Randolph to change his shot. That was a nice defensive play by Yao. Being an intimidating presence doesn't make you a great defender, and I'd argue that Dwight is not an intimidating player. And hasn't Dwight been criticized for not being tough enough?


I never said he was a god lol, I'm just saying the fact that he can touch 13+ feet tends to intimidate players from driving. I'm not saying no one tries to drive on him, I'm saying that the thought of being blocked stays in the back of their minds. Btw he gets foul calls while guarding other centers regularly also.

So you think that being able to touch 13 feet (really doubt that) is intimidating but Yao with his nearly 10 foot standing reach is just run of the mill and wouldn't intimidate anyone?

BTW are you finally admitting that Dwight's man defense is crap and that he struggles to defend them? Which also leads me to another point I forgot to bring up, Dwight gets away with more hacks and fouls than anyone in the NBA.


Yao is very agile for his size and length moreso than Bradley I'm sure you agree, Yao just needs to get into the right spot at the right time. Keeping that in mind, I'd expect Yao to avg 12 rebounds and 3 blocks.

No, I think you need to see a young Bradley, he was definitely quicker than Yao although Yao weighs more.


I saw Shaq in his earlier days and Duncan still surpasses him in every aspect of the game. Shaq was a more dominant player yes, but only because of the rules, or lack there of, at the time (no 5 secs back-to-the-basket or 3 secs in-the-key). Olajuwan showed Shaq's lack of game in the Finals, when he played him better than I've seen anyone play him before. Duncan is the next guy, who just like the Dream, plays Shaq well on defense and gets his own against him on offense. Duncan is better in any facet of the game and that on both ends. Where did you get the AI shoots 39.1% against Kobe? I've seen games where AI shoots 65+% and scores 50+points. Show me where you got these stats from, you wouldn't happen to be making stats up again would you?

Shaq was at his best after the rule changes.

Hakeem sure showed Shaq's lack of game in the finals when Shaq average 30/15/5 on 60% int he Finals.

And one good game against Kobe doesn't mean AI's outplayed Kobe throughout their careers.

JordansBulls
08-27-2009, 04:04 PM
Give me Dwight freakin Howard any day of the week over Yao can't stay healthy Ming!

Dwight simply has more impact on a team than Yao does.

Chronz
08-27-2009, 04:16 PM
Shaq was better than Duncan, Yao was better than Dwight (Yao is not a great passer, people stop saying this). The same issues arent true anymore. People say Yao will come back well that will be in another year, by then Dwight should be entering his prime.

Chronz
08-27-2009, 04:18 PM
Who was the elite shutdown perimeter defender on Houston before McGrady got there? Jim Jackson? Dwight has the luxury of having a good defender at every position unlike Yao.

Tmac had 1 good defensive season in Houston and in that season Wesley guarded the scorers. But your talking about his rookie season then I recall Kato stepping up and doing alot of the dirty work

Raph12
08-27-2009, 04:45 PM
Who was the elite shutdown perimeter defender on Houston before McGrady got there? Jim Jackson? Dwight has the luxury of having a good defender at every position unlike Yao.

Are you forgetting James Posey? Dwight's only good defender in his rookie season was Grant Hill. No Hedo wasn't/isn't a good defender, neither is Nelson or Francis. And you did not respond to the second part of my post, Yao was 23 and had 5 years of professional experience under his belt when he was drafted, Dwight was a 17 year old kid coming out of high school. I'm not comaring their rookie seasons, I'm comaring their current states.

Toronto is a very diverse city, doesn't mean the whole makeup of Canada is the same. 4% of Canada is not huge and not enough to support Yao based on fan base alone. If he did, Houston would be generation more than $156 million last year.

That is just an example, but IMO 4% of 33+million (1.3+million) people is pretty damn big. Now try to include the rest of the Chinese people around the world in countries like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, etc... These are the countries that are loaded with them, I'm not even going into detail about the countries like the US and countries in Europe, which the Chinese also reside in. I think that there is more than enough Chinese population to make a difference in the popularity of Yao Ming.

KG proved to be the better defender and should have the better defensive team. Most good defenders realize there is more to defense than just block shots and as such, their stats go down. People are wrong all the time. Just because you're in the majority doesn't make something true.

KG has never been a good shot blocker, no one was talking about KG's defense until he was on the Celtics. The Celtics make him look better than he is, ultimately the stats and wins are what matters when talking awards, something Dwight will always beat KG in barring injuries. Again you fail to reply to the second part of my arguement, if Dwight was traded for KG, the Celts would be the favs over any team in the NBA by a long shot and the Magic wouldv'e go down a rank or three.

Notice how you completely ignored the rest of my post. If Yao is only going to shoot jump shots, than Howard needs to do a better job shoving Yao out of his spots, instead of letting Yao catch the ball wherever he wants. That's just bad defense and that's why Dwight is not a great defender.

Your right, but Dwight is 23 and is still getting better in the basketball-intelligence department. Yao and Shaq are guys who give Dwight some trouble because they are as strong or stronger than he is, which is why they usually get to their spots. As Dwight grows and his game progresses he will find ways to make life difficult for the stronger guys also. Btw that hardly makes him a bad defender, if someone is bigger and stronger than you, they will push you around a bit for position.

The reward is making yourself better and in turn making your team better.

Everyone wants individual recognition, no one is in the NBA to make a team better. They are there for themselves, there to make money for themselves and there to make a name for themselves. Your right though, the reward is also making yourself better, but having someone else acknowledge it is a whole new world, especially for the younger guys.

Saying Pau barely ever scored against Howard seems like you're saying he got shut down. Pau for the most part played Howard straight up, and did a better job defending Dwight 1 on 1 than Dwight did defending Pau 1 on 1.

I didn't say he got shut down, when I said he "barely ever scored" I was slightly over-exaggerating but I still stand by my statement. Pau would often pass when Dwight would guard him, showing that Dwight's defense was superior to his offense. Pau guarded Dwight one-on-one until Dwight would beat him with his quickness/power, then Dwight would be doubled/tripled and stripped or forced to miss a well contested hook shot. Whenever Dwight guarded Pau he did a great job, Pau would not be able to post him up like Shard so he would try to shoot over him, either way Dwight guarded him really well.

Taking overtime out of the equation, Boston held Atlanta to 87 points last year. While giving up 98 points a game in regulation. Going 7 games in both series is irrelevant. The fact is they had trouble stopping Chicago this year, while they didn't have trouble defender Atlanta, Cleveland, Detroit or Boston this year.

Again you fail to reply to the second part of my response. Like I said before Boston is an old team, Chicago has the speed and stamina to run all game. Guys like Pierce, Allen and Rondo were getting minutes in the 40s, when they were used to minutes in the low-to-mid-30s. Davis and Perkins were also getting minutes in the 40s, when they were used to minutes in the 20s. Chicago was younger, faster and played harder than Boston did, they should've beat Boston but the officials wouldn't allow it (but that's a whole new arguement).

In the Randolph clip you posted, his first dunk, Yao was going to block it, he intimidated Randolph and forced Randolph to change his shot. That was a nice defensive play by Yao. Being an intimidating presence doesn't make you a great defender, and I'd argue that Dwight is not an intimidating player. And hasn't Dwight been criticized for not being tough enough?

Being an intimidating presence doesn't make you a good defender but it does improve your teams defense. You said you'd argue that Dwight is not an intimidating player but all you did was state it. Ask any player who is the most intimidating player at the rim and then tell me if you ever hear anything besides the name "Dwight Howard". Btw Dwight was never criticized for not being tough enough, he was critisized for smiling too much and that was taken to mean that he wasn't serious about winning. A reputation he easily shed in the playoffs by taking his team to the Finals.

So you think that being able to touch 13 feet (really doubt that) is intimidating but Yao with his nearly 10 foot standing reach is just run of the mill and wouldn't intimidate anyone?

BTW are you finally admitting that Dwight's man defense is crap and that he struggles to defend them? Which also leads me to another point I forgot to bring up, Dwight gets away with more hacks and fouls than anyone in the NBA.

Dwight can touch 13'1" for a fact (I've seen him do it in practise), Yao can't touch 11' any forward/center gets up higher than Yao, which is why everyone takes their shot at dunking on him, because they all know he can jump. Dwight's man defense if fine against anyone beside Yao, Yao is just too tall, with too nice of a shooting touch for Dwight to stop.

No, I think you need to see a young Bradley, he was definitely quicker than Yao although Yao weighs more.

Bradley doesn't have the size Yao does (310lbs to 275lbs) and was not quicker but he was faster than Yao.

Shaq was at his best after the rule changes.

Hakeem sure showed Shaq's lack of game in the finals when Shaq average 30/15/5 on 60% int he Finals.

And one good game against Kobe doesn't mean AI's outplayed Kobe throughout their careers.

1st off in the Finals Shaq avg 28-12-6 and my point was he showed all Shaq could do against him was post-and-dunk. Shaq got 3 titles with his best stats before the rule changes of 2002 (3 in the key/back-to-the-basket). After 2002 Shaq's game and stats were anything but outstanding.

AI scored 40+ and 50+ several times against Kobe throughout his career, not just in one game. Btw you for the forth time have not replied the second part of my statement, where did you get the 39.1% from?

Verbal Christ
08-27-2009, 06:42 PM
I'd like to see you back up your big words in person, doubt you'll make me sweat. Alot of talk, Yao WILL be back, the rockets WILL be back, don't know if you can predict the future but if so, why don't you let me in on tomorrows lotto numbers? The "benjis" is something that the Cavs will have to offer Lebron, the Heat will have to offer Wade, the Raptors and Heat will have to offer Bosh and the Suns and Knicks will have to offer Amare, not to forget New Jersey and some other potential suitors (Houston included). Why on earth would any of these guys leave their contender teams to play with a injury-prone, broken-down Yao (injured every other season) who we don't even know can bounce back or not yet? The current Rockets roster is a less-than-average team which is not likely to make the playoffs. Right now you got Aaron Brooks (I like this guy), Shane Battier, Trevor Ariza, Luis Scola and ??? at center, a lineup which won't even be able to fight against a team like Utah or New Orleans, let alone LA, San Antonio, Orlando, Boston or Cleveland. Yes I forgot Hakeem Olajuwan and Tim Duncan I know, I was just naming the 1st guys that came to my mind, btw Duncan was a PF until just recently. Yao is more skilled than Dwight offensively, no doubt, but Dwight is a more consistant player (on offense and defense) because he relies on his athleticism for his stats not his jumper. Dwight will get you 20-15-3 on any night you want it from him, I wouldn't be able to make the same claim about Yao, he will get you 20-10-2 at best give or take 5 points and that inconsistantly (relying on his jumper usually costs him some games), to me Dwight is more consistant, doesn't need alot of touches to score and is a force/presence on defense, which is why I'd take him over Yao. Like I said before Yao is more skilled, but I'll take offensive potential/defensive force at 23, over declining but skilled 29 anyday.

As for open 10 footers, watch this video:
http://img269.yfrog.com/i/h16.mp4/

As for late game free throw shooting, watch the Magic-Cavs series and observe while Dwight out-shoots Lebron at the line in the clutch.

well my predicting the future is just as good as yours i suppose since you seem to know exactly where all the FA's want/are going next year and insinuate that the rockets would be happy to have some tier 2 player, i know what you're doing. so whatever wierd rocket hate you have, i'd really love to know what's your favorite team, of just another 'basketball lover/arguer' ... i digress. 'why on earth etc... etc... " well probably because said 'broken down. oft injured guy will be good as new,like i said, if ilgauskas can do it, there is no doubt in my mind that not only can yao come back, but be even better than he is currently because of regained mobility as in previous seasons, so we're in somewhat of a conundrum arent we, you can see the future and so can i ... i suppose then we'll have to base opinion on the 'when healthy' argument and WHEN HEALTHY yao owns dwight, dwight is scared of yao, he gets the deer in the headlights look like 'what the F*uck am i gonna do' ... if you cant continually dominate the guy who is supposed to be the #2 contender, at what point do you; in turn become the #2 contender capiche? dwight can beat up on scrub teams all he wants, until he can prove to me that he can outmuscle,outwork and outproduce yao its a wrap! if you wanna open up a new thread on 'most potential' Blah! then i'll come in and state the obvious, but it really isnt that hard for me to just look up some rockets/magic tapes and notice how easy it looks for yao, and nevermind the outcomes, we seem to have a pretty good record against the magic during ALL of dwights tenure there. so it was fun, you make good points, but as much as rocket/yao fan seem to concede certian factors you're still devoid of the easiest tool to assess the matchup which in the end was 'who is the better player out of yao vs dwight' not when healthy, whatever dude take it easy i said my peace, i'll just go argue with my wall now since it has more common sense.

oh yeah PS: if yao was officiated or received anywhere near the star treatment dwight gets we wouldnt even be having this discussion, look at yao's arms, and face in the next interview and think to yourself how he got them, then know cuz im tellin you now that they almost never get called dude, aggravating to the tune of more than a couple universal remotes.peace.

SteveNash
08-27-2009, 06:45 PM
Tmac had 1 good defensive season in Houston and in that season Wesley guarded the scorers. But your talking about his rookie season then I recall Kato stepping up and doing alot of the dirty work

Don't think Cato was a good perimeter defender, may be wrong though.


Are you forgetting James Posey? Dwight's only good defender in his rookie season was Grant Hill. No Hedo wasn't/isn't a good defender, neither is Nelson or Francis. And you did not respond to the second part of my post, Yao was 23 and had 5 years of professional experience under his belt when he was drafted, Dwight was a 17 year old kid coming out of high school. I'm not comaring their rookie seasons, I'm comaring their current states.

James Posey is an overrated defender who got their because he was on two championship teams. No one cares what he did before then, no one cares about him now. Hedo is a good/great defender. Everyone Howard plays with is a good defender, they just all have flaws that stop them from every being elite. Nelson too small, Lee too young, Hedo to tall/slow, Rashard to small for 4. But they were all good defenders that overrated the Magic's defense and lead to people believing that the Magic were good defensively, that has disappeared, and they've been exposed. They're not a good defensive team and watch this year for proof. I'm comparing currently.


That is just an example, but IMO 4% of 33+million (1.3+million) people is pretty damn big. Now try to include the rest of the Chinese people around the world in countries like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, etc... These are the countries that are loaded with them, I'm not even going into detail about the countries like the US and countries in Europe, which the Chinese also reside in. I think that there is more than enough Chinese population to make a difference in the popularity of Yao Ming.

Why did Houston generate 156 million in revenue last year. Compare that to Dallas generating 153 and San Antonio at 138. Not a huge difference, besides the Chinese fans in Houston and the surrounding area probably generate more money for the Rockets than every other Chinese in the world. Move Yao to a small market and it'll prove Yao isn't worth it.


KG has never been a good shot blocker, no one was talking about KG's defense until he was on the Celtics. The Celtics make him look better than he is, ultimately the stats and wins are what matters when talking awards, something Dwight will always beat KG in barring injuries. Again you fail to reply to the second part of my arguement, if Dwight was traded for KG, the Celts would be the favs over any team in the NBA by a long shot and the Magic wouldv'e go down a rank or three.

KG has been a good shot blocker. I really have to wonder how long you've been following the NBA for you to say no one talked about his defense before he joined the Celtics. And I'm pretty sure Celtics with have more wins than Orlando as they have the last two years. And I'm pretty sure Celtics will be by far the better defensive team. As for your last part, I thought it was a joke.


Your right, but Dwight is 23 and is still getting better in the basketball-intelligence department. Yao and Shaq are guys who give Dwight some trouble because they are as strong or stronger than he is, which is why they usually get to their spots. As Dwight grows and his game progresses he will find ways to make life difficult for the stronger guys also. Btw that hardly makes him a bad defender, if someone is bigger and stronger than you, they will push you around a bit for position.

Oh so now you want to talk about the future? I said originally that Dwight would be better in the future. So I don't know what you're trying to argue. Dwight is 23 he's not going to grow anymore, he's too small to be a prototypical center. Blame Brian Hill for forcing him to be a center when he clearly isn't, no sense in making excuses now though.


Everyone wants individual recognition, no one is in the NBA to make a team better. They are there for themselves, there to make money for themselves and there to make a name for themselves. Your right though, the reward is also making yourself better, but having someone else acknowledge it is a whole new world, especially for the younger guys.

They may want it, but promoting individualism doesn't help anything.


I didn't say he got shut down, when I said he "barely ever scored" I was slightly over-exaggerating but I still stand by my statement. Pau would often pass when Dwight would guard him, showing that Dwight's defense was superior to his offense. Pau guarded Dwight one-on-one until Dwight would beat him with his quickness/power, then Dwight would be doubled/tripled and stripped or forced to miss a well contested hook shot. Whenever Dwight guarded Pau he did a great job, Pau would not be able to post him up like Shard so he would try to shoot over him, either way Dwight guarded him really well.

Yes, Pau would pass when Howard bit on a pumpfake and would expertly find the player cutting to the basket. Dwight was rarely able to beat Pau and most of Dwight's shot came when LA's defense hadn't been set, once it had been, Dwight was pretty useless against Pau. Rashard had the ability to guard off the dribble, something Dwight could do and either got killed on Pau's mid range jumpers or his pump fakes and drives. That goes back to Howard's speed advantage being rendered useless by Howard's low bb iq.


Again you fail to reply to the second part of my response. Like I said before Boston is an old team, Chicago has the speed and stamina to run all game. Guys like Pierce, Allen and Rondo were getting minutes in the 40s, when they were used to minutes in the low-to-mid-30s. Davis and Perkins were also getting minutes in the 40s, when they were used to minutes in the 20s. Chicago was younger, faster and played harder than Boston did, they should've beat Boston but the officials wouldn't allow it (but that's a whole new arguement).

They gave up 105 points to the Bulls in their first playoff game when they were fully rested. And it's not like Atlanta was old and worn down as they were one of the youngest teams in the league. And no they shouldn't have beaten Boston as Boston was the better team and it was the officials keeping Chicago in the series.


Being an intimidating presence doesn't make you a good defender but it does improve your teams defense. You said you'd argue that Dwight is not an intimidating player but all you did was state it. Ask any player who is the most intimidating player at the rim and then tell me if you ever hear anything besides the name "Dwight Howard". Btw Dwight was never criticized for not being tough enough, he was critisized for smiling too much and that was taken to mean that he wasn't serious about winning. A reputation he easily shed in the playoffs by taking his team to the Finals.

Not a whole lot I'd say. Shaq was very intimidating as he'd give out blatant flagrants if you tried to dunk on him, still wasn't a good defender or a good team defender. Dwight has been criticized for being soft whether you agree with them or not is a different matter. And I don't think he's really shed that reputation as it was more like Hedo and Rashard lead the Magic to the Finals.


Dwight can touch 13'1" for a fact (I've seen him do it in practise), Yao can't touch 11' any forward/center gets up higher than Yao, which is why everyone takes their shot at dunking on him, because they all know he can jump. Dwight's man defense if fine against anyone beside Yao, Yao is just too tall, with too nice of a shooting touch for Dwight to stop.

I've never seen it, he should have shown that off in the dunk contest.


Bradley doesn't have the size Yao does (310lbs to 275lbs) and was not quicker but he was faster than Yao.

He was definitely quicker than Yao.


1st off in the Finals Shaq avg 28-12-6 and my point was he showed all Shaq could do against him was post-and-dunk. Shaq got 3 titles with his best stats before the rule changes of 2002 (3 in the key/back-to-the-basket). After 2002 Shaq's game and stats were anything but outstanding.

5 seconds back to the basket is hardly ever called and was implemented in 99. Defensive 3 wouldn't really hurt Shaq because he was never that great of a defender to begin with.


AI scored 40+ and 50+ several times against Kobe throughout his career, not just in one game. Btw you for the forth time have not replied the second part of my statement, where did you get the 39.1% from?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=iversal01

Raph12
08-27-2009, 08:46 PM
Don't think Cato was a good perimeter defender, may be wrong though.



James Posey is an overrated defender who got their because he was on two championship teams. No one cares what he did before then, no one cares about him now. Hedo is a good/great defender. Everyone Howard plays with is a good defender, they just all have flaws that stop them from every being elite. Nelson too small, Lee too young, Hedo to tall/slow, Rashard to small for 4. But they were all good defenders that overrated the Magic's defense and lead to people believing that the Magic were good defensively, that has disappeared, and they've been exposed. They're not a good defensive team and watch this year for proof. I'm comparing currently.

Posey is solid and people still talk about him being a great defender on the Hornets. Hedo is a horrible defender and I don't see any reason to think otherwise. Everyone Yao plays with is a good defender, everyone Dwight plays with is avg at best, they are no where close as good defenders as: Brooks>Nelson, Battier>>>Lee, Artest>>>>>Hedo and Scola>Lewis. I find it funny you keep saying the Magic defense has been "exposed" when most so-called experts have already considered Dwight to be their only outstanding defender. The Magic is NOT a good defensive team, but will look like it thanks to Dwight Howard and you can "watch this year for proof" on that.

Why did Houston generate 156 million in revenue last year. Compare that to Dallas generating 153 and San Antonio at 138. Not a huge difference, besides the Chinese fans in Houston and the surrounding area probably generate more money for the Rockets than every other Chinese in the world. Move Yao to a small market and it'll prove Yao isn't worth it.

Yao will do well in any market with the right marketing (especially in TO, CAN), he is the pride of Chinese people everywhere. Put him anywhere in North America (outside of Mexico) and he will sell tickets.

KG has been a good shot blocker. I really have to wonder how long you've been following the NBA for you to say no one talked about his defense before he joined the Celtics. And I'm pretty sure Celtics with have more wins than Orlando as they have the last two years. And I'm pretty sure Celtics will be by far the better defensive team. As for your last part, I thought it was a joke.

I hardly think a career-best avg of 2.2 bpg qualifies as a good shot blocker, for a near 7-footer with his athleticism, he is an avg shot blocker at best. He was 13 in voting in the 2006-07 and 2005-06 season, but then suddenly he is surrounded with good/great defenders on the Celtics and he is the league's best defender? Like I said before the Magic is NOT a good defensive team, Dwight makes them look better than they are.

Oh so now you want to talk about the future? I said originally that Dwight would be better in the future. So I don't know what you're trying to argue. Dwight is 23 he's not going to grow anymore, he's too small to be a prototypical center. Blame Brian Hill for forcing him to be a center when he clearly isn't, no sense in making excuses now though.

That's not what I meant, Dwight is better than Yao overall right now, but in the future he'll learn to guard Yao better with more experience under his belt. And your right he is not supposed to be a center, but has the athleticism and skill set to be the best center, so instead of blaming, I thank Brian Hill.

They may want it, but promoting individualism doesn't help anything.

Again untrue, promoting individualism will have players striving to be better and in return will make the NBA more entertaining for the fans (which ultimately is the reason the league exists). Ie. Kobe Bryant wasn't happy taking a backseat to Shaquille O'Neal, so he got Shaq out of LA. Kobe wanted to be the guy and to do that, he worked on his game day and night and just look at the results. There would be no 81pt game, no streak of 50pt games, etc.. if Kobe had taken that backseat to Shaq all these years. Eventually Kobe got what he wanted INDIVIDUAL glory and a ring the way he wanted it. Kobe could have played the team game and won 5+ championships by now, but he didn't, and I for one am glad, because if he sat back, we would never get to see one of the best players of all-time do what he does best.

Yes, Pau would pass when Howard bit on a pumpfake and would expertly find the player cutting to the basket. Dwight was rarely able to beat Pau and most of Dwight's shot came when LA's defense hadn't been set, once it had been, Dwight was pretty useless against Pau. Rashard had the ability to guard off the dribble, something Dwight could do and either got killed on Pau's mid range jumpers or his pump fakes and drives. That goes back to Howard's speed advantage being rendered useless by Howard's low bb iq.

Howard does not bite on pumpfakes, the only time Dwight even jumps is on layups or hookshots, Dwight just tries to get a hand in the players face. Gasol seldom beat Dwight off-the-dribble, it was the other way around, Dwight was often doubled/tripled in the series, while Gasol was guarded one-on-one. Gasol would score off jumpers when Dwight guarded him, rarely scoring off-the-dribble.

They gave up 105 points to the Bulls in their first playoff game when they were fully rested. And it's not like Atlanta was old and worn down as they were one of the youngest teams in the league. And no they shouldn't have beaten Boston as Boston was the better team and it was the officials keeping Chicago in the series.

The Bulls are a running team, any running team will give the Celts trouble, especially when all their best players are in their 30s. You and Boston fans may be the only people in the world who think that Boston was coming out on the wrong end of the calls.

Not a whole lot I'd say. Shaq was very intimidating as he'd give out blatant flagrants if you tried to dunk on him, still wasn't a good defender or a good team defender. Dwight has been criticized for being soft whether you agree with them or not is a different matter. And I don't think he's really shed that reputation as it was more like Hedo and Rashard lead the Magic to the Finals.

Dwight has not been critisized for being soft, he is critisized for smiling too much and I never put my opinion on it so idk what you're getting at. Lmao Hedo is an inconsistant player who could go 1-12 on one night and 6-7 another; Shard barely touches the ball, he is a catch-and-shoot player and he knows his role on the Magic. Dwight brings the same thing night-in night-out and is not only the leader on the court but the leader off the court as well.

I've never seen it, he should have shown that off in the dunk contest.

He dunked a 12' net easier than Yao dunking 10' how is that not showing it?

He was definitely quicker than Yao.

Debatable, Bradley was not quick in his mid-20s, Yao is 29 and still quicker than when Bradley was 25. Yao has lost a step since he entered the league, but I think he is still more athletic than Bradley, not to forget bigger and stronger.

5 seconds back to the basket is hardly ever called and was implemented in 99. Defensive 3 wouldn't really hurt Shaq because he was never that great of a defender to begin with.

Yes but he spent alot of time in the key on offense and defense before the (3 sec) rule was implemented.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=iversal01

Most of his bad games he's played against LA, he was not guard by Kobe, I thought you meant an actual site that had AI's stats while Kobe was guarding him. Okay if these are stats you want to go by, Wade beats Kobe in head-to-head matchups but Kobe is still better.

michigansports8
08-27-2009, 09:15 PM
I think yao is good but dweight is clearlyu more over powering and a better over all player but neither has a title to theyre credit

vash9
08-27-2009, 10:43 PM
Yao is better than Dwight IF healthy, but till this moment now, Dwight wins by a thousand folds.

Yao has a bit better jumper. Yao also had a better post game..i think.

But since Yao is basically done, Dwight>Yao.

SteveNash
08-28-2009, 05:50 AM
Posey is solid and people still talk about him being a great defender on the Hornets. Hedo is a horrible defender and I don't see any reason to think otherwise. Everyone Yao plays with is a good defender, everyone Dwight plays with is avg at best, they are no where close as good defenders as: Brooks>Nelson, Battier>>>Lee, Artest>>>>>Hedo and Scola>Lewis. I find it funny you keep saying the Magic defense has been "exposed" when most so-called experts have already considered Dwight to be their only outstanding defender. The Magic is NOT a good defensive team, but will look like it thanks to Dwight Howard and you can "watch this year for proof" on that.

Who talks about Posey? Magic are not a good defensive team because Dwight isn't a great defender.


Yao will do well in any market with the right marketing (especially in TO, CAN), he is the pride of Chinese people everywhere. Put him anywhere in North America (outside of Mexico) and he will sell tickets.

Doing well isn't the same as saying any GM would take him even if he's sitting out games due to injury.


I hardly think a career-best avg of 2.2 bpg qualifies as a good shot blocker, for a near 7-footer with his athleticism, he is an avg shot blocker at best. He was 13 in voting in the 2006-07 and 2005-06 season, but then suddenly he is surrounded with good/great defenders on the Celtics and he is the league's best defender? Like I said before the Magic is NOT a good defensive team, Dwight makes them look better than they are.

KG is a versatile defender which makes him elite. 2.2 blocks is a good shot blocker for someone who does more than just try to block shots like Howard.

He was 13th in voting because his team sucked, I'm sure KG finished second at least once when he was in Minnesota but him coming up 13th those years just proves that the DPOY is a joke of an award.

Magic are not a great defensive team because Dwight Howard isn't a good defender.


That's not what I meant, Dwight is better than Yao overall right now, but in the future he'll learn to guard Yao better with more experience under his belt. And your right he is not supposed to be a center, but has the athleticism and skill set to be the best center, so instead of blaming, I thank Brian Hill.

In the future, it may be possible for him to figure out how to guard the best center in the game, right now he hasn't figured that out. As for playing center, what skill does Dwight possess besides his athleticism? As seen in the past those players tend to flame out quicker.


Again untrue, promoting individualism will have players striving to be better and in return will make the NBA more entertaining for the fans (which ultimately is the reason the league exists). Ie. Kobe Bryant wasn't happy taking a backseat to Shaquille O'Neal, so he got Shaq out of LA. Kobe wanted to be the guy and to do that, he worked on his game day and night and just look at the results. There would be no 81pt game, no streak of 50pt games, etc.. if Kobe had taken that backseat to Shaq all these years. Eventually Kobe got what he wanted INDIVIDUAL glory and a ring the way he wanted it. Kobe could have played the team game and won 5+ championships by now, but he didn't, and I for one am glad, because if he sat back, we would never get to see one of the best players of all-time do what he does best.

:facepalm:


Howard does not bite on pumpfakes, the only time Dwight even jumps is on layups or hookshots, Dwight just tries to get a hand in the players face. Gasol seldom beat Dwight off-the-dribble, it was the other way around, Dwight was often doubled/tripled in the series, while Gasol was guarded one-on-one. Gasol would score off jumpers when Dwight guarded him, rarely scoring off-the-dribble.

Watch any Magic game to see Dwight biting on fakes. Watch the Finals again because you clearly weren't paying enough attention.


The Bulls are a running team, any running team will give the Celts trouble, especially when all their best players are in their 30s. You and Boston fans may be the only people in the world who think that Boston was coming out on the wrong end of the calls.

The Bulls may run but they're still not a good offensive team. No, the Bulls would have been shut down completely had KG been healthy.


Dwight has not been critisized for being soft, he is critisized for smiling too much and I never put my opinion on it so idk what you're getting at. Lmao Hedo is an inconsistant player who could go 1-12 on one night and 6-7 another; Shard barely touches the ball, he is a catch-and-shoot player and he knows his role on the Magic. Dwight brings the same thing night-in night-out and is not only the leader on the court but the leader off the court as well.

http://dimemag.com/2009/02/are-the-magic-soft/
http://dimemag.com/2009/01/dwight-howard-not-so-superman/

Again you can disagree with their opinion, but has has been criticized in the past for being soft. Argument over.


He dunked a 12' net easier than Yao dunking 10' how is that not showing it?

That was 11.5' and it wasn't that easy.


Debatable, Bradley was not quick in his mid-20s, Yao is 29 and still quicker than when Bradley was 25. Yao has lost a step since he entered the league, but I think he is still more athletic than Bradley, not to forget bigger and stronger.

Find an old Bradley game and watch it then.


Yes but he spent alot of time in the key on offense and defense before the (3 sec) rule was implemented.

How does defensive 3 hurt Shaq on offense?


Most of his bad games he's played against LA, he was not guard by Kobe, I thought you meant an actual site that had AI's stats while Kobe was guarding him. Okay if these are stats you want to go by, Wade beats Kobe in head-to-head matchups but Kobe is still better.

Wade vs Kobe H2H is close and reflects how Wade has gotten the better of Kobe and Kobe has gotten the better of Wade. The difference between Kobe vs Wade or Kobe vs AI is that it's close.

Where as Howard gets completely dominated by Yao to the point where it's no contest.

Raph12
08-28-2009, 10:04 AM
Who talks about Posey? Magic are not a good defensive team because Dwight isn't a great defender.

Anybody talking about the Hornets and Chris Paul's help on the team, mentions Posey's defense. One player not being a good defender doesn't make a bad defensive team. Even with KG out, Boston is a good defensive team, Chicago and Orlando are just teams that matchup well against them.

Doing well isn't the same as saying any GM would take him even if he's sitting out games due to injury.

I never said he'd do well, I said the GM would take him just based off all of the Chinese fans who'd follow behind him. He'd sell for the team, even while playing only 50 games a season.

KG is a versatile defender which makes him elite. 2.2 blocks is a good shot blocker for someone who does more than just try to block shots like Howard.

He was 13th in voting because his team sucked, I'm sure KG finished second at least once when he was in Minnesota but him coming up 13th those years just proves that the DPOY is a joke of an award.

Magic are not a great defensive team because Dwight Howard isn't a good defender.

Obviously anything that requires voting to be done will be flawed. Ie. Tim Duncan's team has been #1-#3 for a while now and has never won the DPOY award, despite being a better defender than both Howard and Garnett IMO.

The Magic are the #1 Defense in the league and the Celts are #2 with or without KG, now try taking Howard out at center for the Magic, I'd estimate they drop to about the 15th-20th place in defensive rating.

In the future, it may be possible for him to figure out how to guard the best center in the game, right now he hasn't figured that out. As for playing center, what skill does Dwight possess besides his athleticism? As seen in the past those players tend to flame out quicker.

I already said Yao is more skilled, but Dwight is a better player, he will get you stats and his impact on the game and his team is greater than Yao's.

Watch any Magic game to see Dwight biting on fakes. Watch the Finals again because you clearly weren't paying enough attention.

For someone in the Finals for the first time and that at the age of 23, it has to be nerve racking for him. Lebron had an atrocious Finals series against the Spurs, but guaranteed if he went back and did it again things would be different. Watch any game not in the Finals to make a good judgement on Howard's offensive game.

The Bulls may run but they're still not a good offensive team. No, the Bulls would have been shut down completely had KG been healthy.

That's not the point, the point is a running team will do well against an aging team with a hole at the 4. Lol at "the Bulls would have been shut down completely" you obviously don't know much about teams not matching up well against one another. Ie. Dallas vs GS, Dallas was the better team, but GS just played well against them.

I'd predict the series to go at least 6 maybe 7 against the Celts even with KG.

http://dimemag.com/2009/02/are-the-magic-soft/
http://dimemag.com/2009/01/dwight-howard-not-so-superman/

Again you can disagree with their opinion, but has has been criticized in the past for being soft. Argument over.

Again I never gave my opinion on the matter so stop saying I did and critics will critisize anything. Ie. Lebron is now a poor sport for not shaking hands

That was 11.5' and it wasn't that easy.

It was easy, he has done more stylish dunks on 11'6" and he also wanted to go to 12' but was denied (He wasn't supposed to do it to begin with; I've seen him do it in practice easy).
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/allstar2008/news/story?id=3243169
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-29-24/James-White-vs--a-Jumping-Myth.html

Find an old Bradley game and watch it then.

Like I said, Bradley's athleticism is different from Yao's; Yao is bigger and stronger he can push around for better position. He is quick enough, strong enough and definitely long enought to get 12rpg.

How does defensive 3 hurt Shaq on offense?

You misread it, I said Shaq spent alot of time in the key on offense and defense, not the rule affected Shaq's offense. The rule effected Shaq's defense and forced him to move around making him more of a liability on defense.

Wade vs Kobe H2H is close and reflects how Wade has gotten the better of Kobe and Kobe has gotten the better of Wade. The difference between Kobe vs Wade or Kobe vs AI is that it's close.

Where as Howard gets completely dominated by Yao to the point where it's no contest.

HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPARISONS DO NOT PROVE ****!!!! I am done talking about that.

:facepalm: Man there is no point in arguing with you, you just say the stupidest things to back up your arguement and quite frankly I'm tired of this discussion. Come back in 2010 when Yao is avging 12-7-1 (pts-rebs-blks) and Dwight is dropping 23-15-4 we'll have this discussion again.

Chronz
08-28-2009, 03:47 PM
Yao doesnt have the physical capabilities to track long rebounds, he could never average 12REB. Rebounding is more about athletic quickness and smarts than it is about height. Look at some of the games best rebounders ie players that specialized their games strictly on that aspect, you'll find guys like Danny Fortson, Reggie Evans, Ben Wallace. They are totally undersized but they were some of the games very best.

SteveNash
08-28-2009, 04:33 PM
Anybody talking about the Hornets and Chris Paul's help on the team, mentions Posey's defense. One player not being a good defender doesn't make a bad defensive team. Even with KG out, Boston is a good defensive team, Chicago and Orlando are just teams that matchup well against them.

Really, I always heard that Paul has no help. I didn't say Orlando was a bad defensive team, just that they weren't great.


Obviously anything that requires voting to be done will be flawed. Ie. Tim Duncan's team has been #1-#3 for a while now and has never won the DPOY award, despite being a better defender than both Howard and Garnett IMO.

So now you're changing your story? Well that's one thing solved.


The Magic are the #1 Defense in the league and the Celts are #2 with or without KG, now try taking Howard out at center for the Magic, I'd estimate they drop to about the 15th-20th place in defensive rating.

Magic aren't #1 defense in the league. When Dwight's on the court, the Magic give up 102.5 points per 100 possessions. When he's off the court it jumps to 103.6. 1.1 difference, not great numbers for someone that's supposed to be a great defender. Compare that to Yao who gives up 103.1 on the court, 108.5 off, difference of 5.4. Or KG with a 7.3 difference. On/Off has it's flaws, but again it comes up woefully short.


I already said Yao is more skilled, but Dwight is a better player, he will get you stats and his impact on the game and his team is greater than Yao's.

You said he was the better defender, that is a myth.


or someone in the Finals for the first time and that at the age of 23, it has to be nerve racking for him. Lebron had an atrocious Finals series against the Spurs, but guaranteed if he went back and did it again things would be different. Watch any game not in the Finals to make a good judgement on Howard's offensive game.

Or maybe Howard just isn't that good. Stop bringing up his age like it means something, we're talking about what we know, not what can be possible in the Finals. You bring up LeBron, it's funny I guess he was still nervous the year after where he played a miserable series against Boston. No, LeBron just lacks a mature game, same thing with Howard. And that's why they're not winning a championship any time soon.


That's not the point, the point is a running team will do well against an aging team with a hole at the 4. Lol at "the Bulls would have been shut down completely" you obviously don't know much about teams not matching up well against one another. Ie. Dallas vs GS, Dallas was the better team, but GS just played well against them.

I'd predict the series to go at least 6 maybe 7 against the Celts even with KG.

The difference is that Golden State was a lot better than Chicago was.


Again I never gave my opinion on the matter so stop saying I did and critics will critisize anything. Ie. Lebron is now a poor sport for not shaking hands

"Dwight has not been critisized for being soft"


It was easy, he has done more stylish dunks on 11'6" and he also wanted to go to 12' but was denied (He wasn't supposed to do it to begin with; I've seen him do it in practice easy).
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/allsta...ory?id=3243169
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/...ping-Myth.html

All I got from that is that Dwight Howard is a liar and that James White came the closest to touching the top of the backboard (is James White an elite defender?).


Like I said, Bradley's athleticism is different from Yao's; Yao is bigger and stronger he can push around for better position. He is quick enough, strong enough and definitely long enought to get 12rpg.

He might have been able to get 12 RPG for his peak season but not much more, he's fine. To act like he should average 12 for his career is ridiculous.


You misread it, I said Shaq spent alot of time in the key on offense and defense, not the rule affected Shaq's offense. The rule effected Shaq's defense and forced him to move around making him more of a liability on defense.

People don't say he was dominant because of his defense, they talk about his offense. What's wrong with spending a lot of time in the paint on offense? It's not like Dwight doesn't get away with offensive 3 second calls all the time.


HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPARISONS DO NOT PROVE ****!!!! I am done talking about that.

It proves Yao has outplayed Dwight every single time they've played.

Raph12
08-28-2009, 05:01 PM
Really, I always heard that Paul has no help. I didn't say Orlando was a bad defensive team, just that they weren't great.

Paul arguably has no help on offense, on defense, Paul had Posey, Chandler (when healthy), Butler, West and Daniels. Orlando is not a great defensive team, they are a bad defensive team but Dwight makes them look like a good one.

So now you're changing your story? Well that's one thing solved.

No the point was that all the awards are flawed due to biases, but the recognition of effort and skill is not.

Magic aren't #1 defense in the league. When Dwight's on the court, the Magic give up 102.5 points per 100 possessions. When he's off the court it jumps to 103.6. 1.1 difference, not great numbers for someone that's supposed to be a great defender. Compare that to Yao who gives up 103.1 on the court, 108.5 off, difference of 5.4. Or KG with a 7.3 difference. On/Off has it's flaws, but again it comes up woefully short.

Orlando has a secondary inside presence in Gortat, who's defense is similar to Howard's, Gortat is a great shotblocker and a good rebounder. Yao in the past has had a rating of +5.8 (his team got better when he was not on the court), these stats are obviously flawed and to derive the meanings you have from them is not only an inaccurate judgement but completely idiotic.

You said he was the better defender, that is a myth.

No it is a fact, Def Rtgs, Def Win Shares and not to mention just being a presence on the inside helps your team on defense as well.

Or maybe Howard just isn't that good. Stop bringing up his age like it means something, we're talking about what we know, not what can be possible in the Finals. You bring up LeBron, it's funny I guess he was still nervous the year after where he played a miserable series against Boston. No, LeBron just lacks a mature game, same thing with Howard. And that's why they're not winning a championship any time soon.

Miserable? Taking Boston to 7 games with a lackluster roster (this years was much better), hardly qualifies as a miserable series. Btw Yao can mature his game all he wants but he'll never win a championship as the best player, maybe he should take the KG route and join two other future HOFers, only then will he have a chance.

The difference is that Golden State was a lot better than Chicago was.

No they weren't, GS was a team that won games based on sheer offense. They try to shoot their way into victories, where Chicago plays defense alongside their offense.

"Dwight has not been critisized for being soft"

That isn't the point, the point is critics will say whatever sells, Dwight is the model player. He is religious, he is fun, a great guy, athletic and plays hard on the court. So critics will say what they need to in order to sell their writing.

All I got from that is that Dwight Howard is a liar and that James White came the closest to touching the top of the backboard (is James White an elite defender?).

Wow if that is all you got, then you need some professional help bud and I'm glad to tell you, that is not my department.

He might have been able to get 12 RPG for his peak season but not much more, he's fine. To act like he should average 12 for his career is ridiculous.

Not ridiculous, outstanding, that would set him far apart from other guys with his size and athleticism.

People don't say he was dominant because of his defense, they talk about his offense. What's wrong with spending a lot of time in the paint on offense? It's not like Dwight doesn't get away with offensive 3 second calls all the time.

Nothings wrong with it, it just goes to show that those guys (Shaq and Dwight) can deliver on almost any given night, whereas Yao can have another off-shooting night and score 7pts. Those rules are created to limit the players use of their size and athleticism to score and defend, Dwight has never struggled with the rules.

It proves Yao has outplayed Dwight every single time they've played.

Another lame response. Watch the Magic-Rockets game played in December, 2007. There are alot of plays where Dwight gets the better of Yao, now I can take those plays and make a video and call it Dwight rapes Yao, but it still doesn't mean anything.

:facepalm: man you are either a crazy old man or just one stubborn sob, honestly idc about your opinion and no matter how much you talk, you won't convince anyone that Yao's defense is better than Dwight's. Now I'm too tired to argue with you anymore so I'm just gonna be ignorant on this one and say "majority rules"

No matter how much we argue, you won't be changing my opinion and I won't be changing yours, so let's just agree to disagree.

SteveNash
08-28-2009, 05:05 PM
:facepalm: man you are either a crazy old man or just one stubborn sob, honestly idc about your opinion and no matter how much you talk, you won't convince anyone that Yao's defense is better than Dwight's. Now I'm too tired to argue with you anymore so I'm just gonna be ignorant on this one and say "majority rules"

No matter how much we argue, you won't be changing my opinion and I won't be changing yours, so let's just agree to disagree.

I'm not dealing with opinions, I deal with facts.

Though I see you want to get out of the hole you dug for yourself so I'm willing to drop it.

Raph12
08-28-2009, 05:09 PM
I'm not dealing with opinions, I deal with facts.

Though I see you want to get out of the hole you dug for yourself so I'm willing to drop it.

Again with the smart *** comments, you know what think w/e you'd like. Good day.