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NotVeryOriginal
08-21-2009, 04:38 PM
Source (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Afghanistan-Two-British-Soldiers-Killed-In-Explosion-Ministry-Of-Defence-Announces/Article/200908315366485?lpos=UK_News_News_Your_Way_Region_ 8&lid=NewsYourWay_ARTICLE_15366485_Afghanistan%3A_Tw o_British_Soldiers_Killed_In_Explosion%2C_Ministry _Of_Defence_Announces)


The news comes as the bodies of four other British soldiers killed there last weekend arrived back in the UK.

Fusilier Simon Annis, 22, Fusilier Louis Carter, 18, and Lance Corporal James Fullarton, 24, died in a blast on Sunday.

They had been attempting to rescue their injured commander Fullarton when all three were killed.

Their coffins were flown to RAF Lyneham in Wiltshire, along with that of Sergeant Simon Valentine, 29, who died while on foot patrol near Sangin six days ago.

An Afghan policeman checks a man at the entrance of a polling centre in Kabul

A polling station in Kabul

The two latest fatalities in Aghanistan occured as people went to vote in the country's landmark election on Thursday.

One soldier was from The 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment (Duke of Wellington's), the other from The 2nd Battalion The Rifles.

A statement from the Ministry of Defence said: "The soldiers died as a result of an explosion that happened whilst on a routine foot patrol, near Sangin, north Helmand Province."

It added that the attack was not connected to security surrounding the election.

Lieutenant Colonel Nick Richardson, spokesman for Task Force Helmand, said: "It is with deep regret that we report the death of two soldiers in Helmand Province.

Live Video
Roll Of Honour 2009 red chevron
All the servicemen and women who lost their lives in Afghanistan in 2009.

"Our deepest heartfelt thoughts and sympathies go out to the bereaved family, friends and comrades of these brave soldiers."

The soldiers' next of kin have been informed and have asked for a 24-hour period of grace before further details are released.

One of two soldiers killed was part of reinforcements sent to the country three weeks ago to boost numbers after a wave of casualties.

Their deaths bring to 206 the number of British troops killed in Afghanistan since the invasion in 2001.


When is this crap gonna end? We are we still there?

SmthBluCitrus
08-21-2009, 04:49 PM
Never ... that's when.

Personally, I'm in favor of the mission in Afghanistan; I have been since the outset. And, I'm glad that the attention of the campaign has been re-focused there.

NotVeryOriginal
08-21-2009, 05:13 PM
Never ... that's when.

Personally, I'm in favor of the mission in Afghanistan; I have been since the outset. And, I'm glad that the attention of the campaign has been re-focused there.

So your in favour of having troops in Afghanistan indefinately, even tho both candidates are in wanting troops to leave as soon as possible?

IndyFan
08-21-2009, 05:22 PM
i think you're asking the wrong forum. does the UK have any reason to stay in Afghanistan other than keeping the US company. if not, then the UK should go home if they feel like it. afghanistan [like vietnam] is an impossible place to control. an easy place to fight though. everybody carries an AK-47. it is like the NRA on steroids.

:)

SmthBluCitrus
08-21-2009, 05:26 PM
I'm for leaving troops in Afghanistan until we can repel al Qaeda and Pakistan can move toward security in the northwest ... basically giving al Qaeda no safe haven in the region.

That doesn't necessarily mean forever though. And, I don't want to see permanent American (or coalition) military bases in Afghanistan. But, there is a mission to be done there.

SmthBluCitrus
08-21-2009, 05:27 PM
Good point. I appreciate the support and assistance that the UK has been giving us throughout. But, it is an American military endeavor ... if the UK wants out, they should be allowed to get out.

dbroncos78087
08-21-2009, 05:30 PM
i think you're asking the wrong forum. does the UK have any reason to stay in Afghanistan other than keeping the US company. if not, then the UK should go home if they feel like it. afghanistan [like vietnam] is an impossible place to control. an easy place to fight though. everybody carries an AK-47. it is like the NRA on steroids.

:)

I dont think this is the wrong forum. It doesnt say "United States Politics". I suppose if someone wanted to discuss Canadian or Mexican politics it would be acceptable.

IndyFan
08-21-2009, 05:43 PM
I dont think this is the wrong forum. It doesnt say "United States Politics". I suppose if someone wanted to discuss Canadian or Mexican politics it would be acceptable.

:o

NotVeryOriginal
08-21-2009, 05:49 PM
Good point. I appreciate the support and assistance that the UK has been giving us throughout. But, it is an American military endeavor ... if the UK wants out, they should be allowed to get out.

Youd think so, but being the 52nd state en all, other than a few years during vietnam when we have a commie at No10, if the Whitehouse tells the PM to jump, he asks how high?

BTW, to your point, itll never happen. I cant find the link but a while back I saw a youtube vid where families were making AKs in their garage from metal and used shell casings for bullets, they could make them cheaper than they could make a days worth of meals. Thats why you lost vietnam, whilst the west throughs money at things, they through bodies and grit, and they can make both faster than we can make F22s and Napalm bombs.

You want to spread democracy?

Look at how the Prez is having to modify policy to please the people of this democracy, legally allowing rape?! Just because we give them our legal system doesnt mean they share our cultural norms, they think just like the Taliban, just now with pens rather than swords. I wouldnt be suprised to see capital punishment handed back to women who have been raped once Nato leaves.

You want to stop terrorism?

They cant go there, theyll find somewhere that they can go. Terrorism will never end because poverty will never end. Its like saying "lets end racism" its not gonna happen. You cant (and shouldnt be able to) control what people think, and if you get someone poor enough and stupid enough, they just might happen to be angry enough too.

Before you say education, theyll always be idiots too. Genetics does play a role in intellegance IMO.

You dont want Pakistan falling to extremists?

Then start throwing weight behind India and let them know that we are back a country that has no problem turning Islamabad into a nuclear themepark for 3000 years and reclaiming the rest of the land, with nepalm if necesary, if they step out of line.

SmthBluCitrus
08-21-2009, 05:58 PM
Youd think so, but being the 52nd state en all, other than a few years during vietnam when we have a commie at No10, if the Whitehouse tells the PM to jump, he asks how high?

BTW, to your point, itll never happen. I cant find the link but a while back I saw a youtube vid where families were making AKs in their garage from metal and used shell casings for bullets, they could make them cheaper than they could make a days worth of meals. Thats why you lost vietnam, whilst the west throughs money at things, they through bodies and grit, and they can make both faster than we can make F22s and Napalm bombs.

You want to spread democracy?

Look at how the Prez is having to modify policy to please the people of this democracy, legally allowing rape?! Just because we give them our legal system doesnt mean they share our cultural norms, they think just like the Taliban, just now with pens rather than swords. I wouldnt be suprised to see capital punishment handed back to women who have been raped once Nato leaves.

You want to stop terrorism?

They cant go there, theyll find somewhere that they can go. Terrorism will never end because poverty will never end. Its like saying "lets end racism" its not gonna happen. You cant (and shouldnt be able to) control what people think, and if you get someone poor enough and stupid enough, they just might happen to be angry enough too.

Before you say education, theyll always be idiots too. Genetics does play a role in intellegance IMO.

You dont want Pakistan falling to extremists?

Then start throwing weight behind India and let them know that we are back a country that has no problem turning Islamabad into a nuclear themepark for 3000 years and reclaiming the rest of the land, with nepalm if necesary, if they step out of line.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think you can militarily spread democracy. It takes a correlated effort (military, economic, educational, philosophical, etc ...) -- and one of the main contributing factors is people's ability to make some sort of living doing something. If you don't have that, you just end up back in the same trap.

If Afghanistan doesn't want to democratize ... then they shouldn't have to. It's just not something you can force. And, Afghanistan certainly isn't like the rest of the world. It's a unique place.

I actually read a great book on the area. It's called The Forever War by Dexter Filkins. It really lays out the apathetic war-like mentality of the different groups of Afghani people.

IndyFan
08-22-2009, 04:23 PM
Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think you can militarily spread democracy. It takes a correlated effort (military, economic, educational, philosophical, etc ...) -- and one of the main contributing factors is people's ability to make some sort of living doing something. If you don't have that, you just end up back in the same trap.

nation building. law and order. you can do that militarily. i agree.


If Afghanistan doesn't want to democratize ... then they shouldn't have to. It's just not something you can force. And, Afghanistan certainly isn't like the rest of the world. It's a unique place.

I actually read a great book on the area. It's called The Forever War by Dexter Filkins. It really lays out the apathetic war-like mentality of the different groups of Afghani people.

afghanistan is a unique place. not sure the job of terrorist hunting will ever stop there. the terrain, the tribes,the warrior culture, religion, the lack of jobs, drugs. the was in afghanistan will be the forever war for the US. i just don't see the US military [or anyone else's] succeeding in imposing their will there. certainly not as long as the suni arab community has the money to front the fight against. it would be cheaper, easier and more effective to watch with UAV's and attack, if necessary, with air power. it is possible, imo, to keep the taliban out of power, but not to chase them out of the country or get rid of them.

:)

SmthBluCitrus
08-22-2009, 05:30 PM
afghanistan is a unique place. not sure the job of terrorist hunting will ever stop there. the terrain, the tribes,the warrior culture, religion, the lack of jobs, drugs. the was in afghanistan will be the forever war for the US. i just don't see the US military [or anyone else's] succeeding in imposing their will there. certainly not as long as the suni arab community has the money to front the fight against. it would be cheaper, easier and more effective to watch with UAV's and attack, if necessary, with air power. it is possible, imo, to keep the taliban out of power, but not to chase them out of the country or get rid of them.

:)

No, Afghanistan will likely always be a terror breeding ground. But, if we and our allies -- and hopefully we can get some semblance of an ally out of some central Afghani government -- can make life difficult for those that would wish to do the rest of us harm, then we're hopefully getting the job accomplished. But no, I don't think we'll ever totally eradicate the Taliban or that specific ideology.

But, it really takes a multifaceted effort to "nation build." And, frankly, Afghanistan just doesn't have what it takes to successfully sustain that right now. There's no industry, no real economy outside of opium production (which I think we should buy up for our pharma industry), and no expressed desire by the general population to educate and modernize. It's just a backwards country.