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View Full Version : Did Orlando Really Get Better?



Lakers4ItAll
08-20-2009, 01:38 PM
Ok we all know ORL has made alot of moves like trading for VC and signing Bass, Barnes, and J Will but nobody knows how they will all play together, so do you think all these moves will make them better?

On the other hand they let Hedo walk and he was one of the major reasons they were so good last season since he caused so many matchup problems and with him and Lewis they played a inside/outside game alot now that will all change.

What do you think?

Hawkeye15
08-20-2009, 01:45 PM
They are deeper, for sure I think. I am not sure exactly what Vince will bring them, but he replaces Turdsofglu at least.
Bass and Barnes toughen them up.
And a deep postseason run, and failing in the finals will make them determined. So yes, Orlando should be better this season. They could easily lead the NBA in wins

lakers4sho
08-20-2009, 01:47 PM
Yes the depth they added at least equalizes whatever they lost in Turkoglu. They've still got the playmaking in Jameer Nelson. Now they've added a legit scorer in Carter, and a bunch of bench players they lacked last season.

MAC10TIZZY
08-20-2009, 02:00 PM
Ok we all know ORL has made alot of moves like trading for VC and signing Bass, Barnes, and J Will but nobody knows how they will all play together, so do you think all these moves will make them better?

On the other hand they let Hedo walk and he was one of the major reasons they were so good last season since he caused so many matchup problems and with him and Lewis they played a inside/outside game alot now that will all change.

What do you think?


blah , blah, blah, im soooo sick of this argument already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NEXT

Raps08-09 Champ
08-20-2009, 02:03 PM
I think they got better overall but they lost some major strenghts.

DLeeicious
08-20-2009, 02:05 PM
I think they took giant steps laterally. Made a lot of movement but not a lot of progress. They may have improved a little, but not substantially.

Chronz
08-20-2009, 02:05 PM
Why do we consider Hedo a mismatch and Vince not? Hes not a height mismatch, but hes a skills/talent/athletic mismatch. So what difference does it make?

Hawkeye15
08-20-2009, 02:12 PM
Why do we consider Hedo a mismatch and Vince not? Hes not a height mismatch, but hes a skills/talent/athletic mismatch. So what difference does it make?

exactly. I am not a VC fan by any means, but Carter is better plain and simple.

dre1990
08-20-2009, 02:17 PM
Yes

Double_R
08-20-2009, 02:17 PM
Bottom line is haters will say they didn't, but they obviously did.

Vince Carter is better than Hedo, I know Hedo ran the pick and roll to perfection, he also had late game turnovers and shot horribly, not to mention that he barely ran the pick and roll before Jameer got hurt, since that is what made him an allstar

Ryan Anderson had better stats than Courtney Lee(not saying that he's better, but by seeing what he did in the summer league he might be) and minus the playoffs who knew who he was that didn't watch the Magic play.

Brandon Bass is better and much younger than Battie

Jayson Will and Rafer is basically a wash- because Jameer is back(which people forget that he was out the entire playoffs and I don't count his finals appearance
They resigned Gortat and got an 8 mil trade exception incase he could be headed else where
Matt Barnes is also a good role player (defense and 3s)

So lets see they got deeper, bigger, dwight got older, Rashard got stronger, and Jameer is back...this is a stupid thread, I glad you cared so much lakers fan to start this

Raph12
08-20-2009, 02:31 PM
They lost Hedo (didn't really lose him, he left for TO because of the Turkish community there, Magic offered him 5 yr 45m which he turned down), Alston (who was just a temp replacement of Nelson, as proven in the Finals) and Courntey Lee (yeah I'll take this loss, I liked this guy alot), Jeremy Richardson (non-factor) and Battie (non-factor), in return they got VC>Hedo, Nelson healthy>Alston, Bass>Battie, Barnes>Lee (as of now, Barnes is more proven), Ryan Anderson>>>Jeremy Richardson and added Jason Williams. On paper they are alot better, on the court, you never know, I'm sure SVG will work something out.

As for the matchup problems, with Bass/Anderson/Gortat at the 4, Shard (6'10") will be at the 3, so hello matchup problems. As for the inside-outside with Dwight; Shard, Nelson, Carter, Pietrus, Barnes, AJ, J-Will and Anderson all shoot the 3 better than Alston, Lee or Turk, while Brandon Bass has a sweet mid-range jumper, so the 4 on the outside and Dwight on the inside is something that they can easily go to with Shard or Anderson at the 4 when necessary, or play more traditional with Bass/Gortat at the 4.

This Orlando team should definately be better than last year, they are deeper, they finally have options on offense and a real go-to player who can create for both himself and others when they need it. Now SVG just has to put the pieces together, something he is more than capable of doing. This is going to be argued all year long whether they are better or worse and Orlando will still be seen as the pushover team of the elite, just like last year. They will play the underdog role and come out on top again, I'm calling it right now, expect a Finals rematch.

JordansBulls
08-20-2009, 02:51 PM
We had a huge thread on this already.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385058&highlight=Orlando


I believe they easily got better, but it doesn't mean they will make the finals because they are better. You gotta remember now they will have to deal with a healthy Boston team and a Cleveland team looking for revenge. Also they will be the hunted in the East as they are the EC champions.

macc
08-20-2009, 02:59 PM
Bottom line is haters will say they didn't, but they obviously did.

Vince Carter is better than Hedo, I know Hedo ran the pick and roll to perfection, he also had late game turnovers and shot horribly, not to mention that he barely ran the pick and roll before Jameer got hurt, since that is what made him an allstar

Ryan Anderson had better stats than Courtney Lee(not saying that he's better, but by seeing what he did in the summer league he might be) and minus the playoffs who knew who he was that didn't watch the Magic play.

Brandon Bass is better and much younger than Battie

Jayson Will and Rafer is basically a wash- because Jameer is back(which people forget that he was out the entire playoffs and I don't count his finals appearance
They resigned Gortat and got an 8 mil trade exception incase he could be headed else where
Matt Barnes is also a good role player (defense and 3s)

So lets see they got deeper, bigger, dwight got older, Rashard got stronger, and Jameer is back...this is a stupid thread, I glad you cared so much lakers fan to start this


Well said

king4day
08-20-2009, 02:59 PM
For once, I'm glad my team isn't in the east.
That's 3 great teams and only one can make the finals.

The same question could be posed for LA with Artest and Cleveland with Shaq.

jetsfan718
08-20-2009, 03:04 PM
no they shouldnt of got rid of vince its gonna mess up chemistry

hockeypro68
08-20-2009, 03:05 PM
OF COURSE they improved. They are favorites to come out of the east if you ask me.

Lakerfrk
08-20-2009, 03:12 PM
They lost Hedo (didn't really lose him, he left for TO because of the Turkish community there, Magic offered him 5 yr 45m which he turned down), Alston (who was just a temp replacement of Nelson, as proven in the Finals) and Courntey Lee (yeah I'll take this loss, I liked this guy alot), Jeremy Richardson (non-factor) and Battie (non-factor), in return they got VC>Hedo, Nelson healthy>Alston, Bass>Battie, Barnes>Lee (as of now, Barnes is more proven), Ryan Anderson>>>Jeremy Richardson and added Jason Williams. On paper they are alot better, on the court, you never know, I'm sure SVG will work something out.

As for the matchup problems, with Bass/Anderson/Gortat at the 4, Shard (6'10") will be at the 3, so hello matchup problems. As for the inside-outside with Dwight; Shard, Nelson, Carter, Pietrus, Barnes, AJ, J-Will and Anderson all shoot the 3 better than Alston, Lee or Turk, while Brandon Bass has a sweet mid-range jumper, so the 4 on the outside and Dwight on the inside is something that they can easily go to with Shard or Anderson at the 4 when necessary, or play more traditional with Bass/Gortat at the 4.

This Orlando team should definately be better than last year, they are deeper, they finally have options on offense and a real go-to player who can create for both himself and others when they need it. Now SVG just has to put the pieces together, something he is more than capable of doing. This is going to be argued all year long whether they are better or worse and Orlando will still be seen as the pushover team of the elite, just like last year. They will play the underdog role and come out on top again, I'm calling it right now, expect a Finals rematch.

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but it was not Hedo that created the mismatch problems... it was Lewis playing the PF, and being an outside threat, drawing the opposing 4s away from the basket.. He was much quicker than they were, so he had a huge advantage...

With Rashard moving to the 3, and Bass playing the 4.. the mismatch goes away. Rashard has an advantage at 6'10 over most small forwards, but that doesn't matter much because Rashard is not a back to the basket type of player.

I still think Orlando is a great team. Second in the conference I think, but did they IMPROVE a lot? I dont know, a little... not a lot.

Callenx5
08-20-2009, 03:15 PM
Ok we all know ORL has made alot of moves like trading for VC and signing Bass, Barnes, and J Will but nobody knows how they will all play together, so do you think all these moves will make them better?

On the other hand they let Hedo walk and he was one of the major reasons they were so good last season since he caused so many matchup problems and with him and Lewis they played a inside/outside game alot now that will all change.

What do you think?

Yes, their better, but lost their edge againist the cavs their height is wut put them over the top, since the magic lost Hedo they won't beat the cavs.

iluvsports2much
08-20-2009, 03:25 PM
no they shouldnt of got rid of vince its gonna mess up chemistry

um orlando aquired vince in a trade,they didnt get rid of him..:confused: they got rid of courtney lee,rafer alston,and hedo turkaglu....

anyway,i think they got worse...i mean hedo turkaglu was one of their best scorers,one of their best passers,and one of their most clutch players when the games on the line..losing hedo is a major blow and i dont think VC makes up for that major hole he left in the lineup...with VC i suspect dwights offensive numbers will go down cuz VC will need the ball more and will take touches away from dwight,this wouldnt be a problem if he was a good passer like hedo but he isnt..i expect them to be a 3rd or fourth team in the east but i dont see them keepin up with boston and cleveland with their current squad..

Chronz
08-20-2009, 03:39 PM
um orlando aquired vince in a trade,they didnt get rid of him..:confused: they got rid of courtney lee,rafer alston,and hedo turkaglu....

anyway,i think they got worse...i mean hedo turkaglu was one of their best scorers,one of their best passers,and one of their most clutch players when the games on the line..losing hedo is a major blow and i dont think VC makes up for that major hole he left in the lineup...with VC i suspect dwights offensive numbers will go down cuz VC will need the ball more and will take touches away from dwight,this wouldnt be a problem if he was a good passer like hedo but he isnt..i expect them to be a 3rd or fourth team in the east but i dont see them keepin up with boston and cleveland with their current squad..
VC is a better scorer, shooter, passer, ball handler, defender and is better in the clutch. What holes cant he fill?

Raps08-09 Champ
08-20-2009, 03:51 PM
Hedo is a better scorer, shooter, passer, ball handler, defender and is better in the clutch. What holes cant he fill?

I think he meant that Hedo's streghts were a major part. I mean I would think West can guard Vince more than Turkoglu.

Raps08-09 Champ
08-20-2009, 03:54 PM
Why do we consider Hedo a mismatch and Vince not? Hes not a height mismatch, but hes a skills/talent/athletic mismatch. So what difference does it make?

Well isn't Magic Johnson's height the reason he was so hard to guard?

It is kinda similar for West to guard Turkoglu. Vince is obviously better but that height differential was a big difference in the Cavs series IMO.

Silent
08-20-2009, 03:54 PM
anyone that says no is a hater how can u say they didn't improve

to all the haters get off your high horse u will be looking at one of the teams that will be in the finals.

MTar786
08-20-2009, 04:09 PM
in my books they're on the same level as boston and LA. theyre bench is the best in the nba and their starting lineup is 4th behind la,boston and san antonio. thats a GREAT mix.

ps. this is coming from a lakers fan

Chronz
08-20-2009, 04:28 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but it was not Hedo that created the mismatch problems... it was Lewis playing the PF, and being an outside threat, drawing the opposing 4s away from the basket.. He was much quicker than they were, so he had a huge advantage...

With Rashard moving to the 3, and Bass playing the 4.. the mismatch goes away. Rashard has an advantage at 6'10 over most small forwards, but that doesn't matter much because Rashard is not a back to the basket type of player.

I still think Orlando is a great team. Second in the conference I think, but did they IMPROVE a lot? I dont know, a little... not a lot.
All true, but the Magic can still deploy a perimeter of VC/Barnes/Shard/Dwight.

The magic have the ability to play small, what they now have is the ability to match up with bigs if need be.

bkmikeyy
08-20-2009, 04:31 PM
Turkuglu has one good playoffs and suddenly hes better than vince??? im confused

Before the playoffs started most people in this chat would agree that turk and vince should not be mentioned in the same sentence. People fail to realize how great vince played in New Jersey the past few years because they didnt make the playoffs. He was a real leader and will be muchhhhh better than hedo with a better squad.

Chronz
08-20-2009, 04:32 PM
I think he meant that Hedo's streghts were a major part. I mean I would think West can guard Vince more than Turkoglu.
Dont know what your getting at, but his words are clear.


Well isn't Magic Johnson's height the reason he was so hard to guard?
It was the fact that he was good that made it hard to guard him. Look at all the tall PG's whove come into the league and sucked.


It is kinda similar for West to guard Turkoglu. Vince is obviously better but that height differential was a big difference in the Cavs series IMO.

It wasnt though, Hedo was relatively quiet that series. It was the mismatches Shard and Dwight provided that did the Cavs in.

bkmikeyy
08-20-2009, 04:38 PM
Hedo is probably the most overrated player in the NBA right now, i think that will change pretty quickly once hes not surrounded by that line up.

Raps08-09 Champ
08-20-2009, 04:41 PM
I dont think so


It was the fact that he was good that made it hard to guard him. Look at all the tall PG's whove come into the league and sucked.


It wasnt though, Hedo was relatively quiet that series. It was the mismatches Shard and Dwight provided that did the Cavs in.

Well if you are 6'4 and you had to defend a 6'10 player and have him defend you, it is pretty hard.

Ya but a 6'3 player guarding a 6'10 player is hard. Turko isn't no slouch either. He is a top 10 international player in the league.

Hedo had 17, 6 and 6. That was his best overall series. Lewis had similar stats. That was also Lewis' worst series(excluding the finals) Howard is Howard every time. Lebron was also guarding Lewis. Turk had West guarding him. I really don't think Lebron had as hard of a time guarding Lewis than West guarding Turkoglu.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/hidayet_turkoglu/
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/rashard_lewis/index.html

Raph12
08-20-2009, 04:46 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but it was not Hedo that created the mismatch problems... it was Lewis playing the PF, and being an outside threat, drawing the opposing 4s away from the basket.. He was much quicker than they were, so he had a huge advantage...

With Rashard moving to the 3, and Bass playing the 4.. the mismatch goes away. Rashard has an advantage at 6'10 over most small forwards, but that doesn't matter much because Rashard is not a back to the basket type of player.

I still think Orlando is a great team. Second in the conference I think, but did they IMPROVE a lot? I dont know, a little... not a lot.

Correct me if I'm wrong but they got Ryan Anderson also, who shoots the 3 (36.5%) better than Turk (35.6%). He can play the 4, while Shard plays the 3 and we can say hello again to those matchup problems.

In Seattle, while playing the 3, Shard would often post guys up down low, which he showed he could still do in the final game of the Magic-Sixers series, posting smaller SFs down easily and scoring points in the post. If anything, like I said before, this just gives them more options on offense, making them an even stronger team.

Chronz
08-20-2009, 05:17 PM
Well if you are 6'4 and you had to defend a 6'10 player and have him defend you, it is pretty hard.
Not harder than defending a 6"7 (superior) athlete with actual low post skills and more game.



Hedo had 17, 6 and 6. That was his best overall series.
What made you think it was his best series?


Lewis had similar stats.
Only to the laymen


That was also Lewis' worst series(excluding the finals) Howard is Howard every time.
Even if I were to believe your theory, dont you find it sad that according to you, the series Hedo was his best and Shard was his worst, they were similar players.


Lebron was also guarding Lewis.
Incorrect, the Cavs made Bron their designated roamer, you can only apply this tactic when you have a non-shooter on the floor. This was Rafer, while with this lineup AV was checking Lewis, and Delonte was checking Hedo. Every so often they would put Bron on Hedo but they didnt stick to it because Hedo wasnt overwhelming Delonte in the post much, and all he did was PnR, which without Bron around to protect to weakside is too efficient. Better to have Bron help in those situations than Mo.

The Cavs never stuck with one defensive gameplan and I actually think it hurt them, had they just let Dwight dominate and stuck to the shooters things couldve been different. Instead they let the Magic pick their spots and get every wide open shot for everyone.Anyways the point is that you cant make vague claims. Bron guarded alot of players.



http://www.nba.com/playerfile/hidayet_turkoglu/
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/rashard_lewis/index.html


What am I looking at? Look man if your serious about this analyzing stuff, youve got to stop going to NBA.com.

Raps08-09 Champ
08-20-2009, 05:30 PM
1.Not harder than defending a 6"7 (superior) athlete with actual low post skills and more game.


2.What made you think it was his best series?


Only to the laymen


3.Even if I were to believe your theory, dont you find it sad that according to you, the series Hedo was his best and Shard was his worst, they were similar players.


4.Incorrect, the Cavs made Bron their designated roamer, you can only apply this tactic when you have a non-shooter on the floor. This was Rafer, while with this lineup AV was checking Lewis, and Delonte was checking Hedo. Every so often they would put Bron on Hedo but they didnt stick to it because Hedo wasnt overwhelming Delonte in the post much, and all he did was PnR, which without Bron around to protect to weakside is too efficient. Better to have Bron help in those situations than Mo.

5.The Cavs never stuck with one defensive gameplan and I actually think it hurt them, had they just let Dwight dominate and stuck to the shooters things couldve been different. Instead they let the Magic pick their spots and get every wide open shot for everyone.Anyways the point is that you cant make vague claims. Bron guarded alot of players.



6.What am I looking at? Look man if your serious about this analyzing stuff, youve got to stop going to NBA.com.

1. It's still probably easier for someone like Moon or Parker to defend Carter than West for Turkoglu.

2. He didn't have as good of a series statistically and that was the series he made the bigger shots.

3. Well Ya but Lewis is better than Turkoglu.

4. In the 4th quarter, Lebron was guarding Rashard the most. Cuz they had to take Z out by they which moved AV on Howard and Lebron on Lewis.

5. Lebron guarded Lewis the most in the 4th quarter more than anyone else.

6. O I was just showing the stats cuz you said that was the series he was most quiet.

Chronz
08-20-2009, 07:23 PM
OK So what are you getting at, what were we talking about again? Our arguments tend to delve into other issues entirely too often. I get that your trying to pump up Hedo's worth but what is it that you think Im saying about him? He wasnt the mismatch either Shard or Dwight were, hes not more of a mismatch than Vince. How exactly do your links, claims about VC matching up with AP/MOON vs Delonte/Hedo tie into this fact? Why not compare the player vs the same defender and how exactly would Hedo have ended up as more of a mismatch at the end of the game?

If all Vince had to do was facilitate and shoot at his hearts content on a PnR set he could easily outperform Hedo. The way I see it, Tmac underwent the same transformation in Houston as a player under JVG. SVG uses much of the same sets his brother did, Tmac was always a more intuitive passer so it suit him well, but Vince has a similar mindset and would rather look to pass than score. But every team hes been on has had remarkable PG's, not that it hindered his game it didnt, it only altered it. Point being, Tmac was better than Hedo not as long as a year ago. Vince last year was better than Tmac in his decline state and could easily offer his teams more, and if what essentially is a poor mans Vince can outperform Hedo in a very similar offensive structure then Vince if healthy, will have no problem doing the same.


In Orlando with a PG like Jameer whos equally adept at shooting and penetrating Vince finally have the chance to display his passing game. Its why I asked the other guy, what holes exactly would Vince not be able to fill?

theuuord
08-20-2009, 07:31 PM
i need to find the link to my hedo/vince comparison.

theuuord
08-20-2009, 07:31 PM
Hedo is a better scorer, shooter, passer, ball handler, defender and is better in the clutch. What holes cant he fill?

i think you mean Vince...

Chronz
08-20-2009, 07:34 PM
i think you mean Vince...
That changes everything but Im sure everyone knew what I meant.

blah-blah
08-20-2009, 07:41 PM
yes except they overpaid gortat

mrblisterdundee
08-20-2009, 07:46 PM
Of course they got better. They replaced Turkoglu's distribution and scoring with Vince, and they added Bass and Barnes. I think the answer's pretty obvious.

mrblisterdundee
08-20-2009, 07:48 PM
yes except they overpaid gortat

Why did you include Jarrett Jack on the elite list for Toronto? He isn't elite in the slightest. You Toronto fans are getting desperate for some reason to feel happy about your pansy basketball team.

JordansBulls
08-20-2009, 07:50 PM
VC is a better scorer, shooter, passer, ball handler, defender and is better in the clutch. What holes cant he fill?

:nod:

nbaguy123
08-20-2009, 07:53 PM
they have become a more traditional and more deeper team, and yes they have become better in a way.

theuuord
08-20-2009, 10:24 PM
That changes everything but Im sure everyone knew what I meant.

on PSD i take nothing for granted.

theuuord
08-20-2009, 10:25 PM
i need to find the link to my hedo/vince comparison.

here we go.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387772

MAC10TIZZY
08-21-2009, 08:48 PM
Hedo is probably the most overrated player in the NBA right now, i think that will change pretty quickly once hes not surrounded by that line up.


this is a very true statement!:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Toenail Clipper
08-21-2009, 08:53 PM
No foo.
The Sacramento Kings can beat them.

Byronicle
08-21-2009, 09:11 PM
in my opinion VC is a lot of Hedo in a way...

VC can play the point, is a playmaker, drains clutch 3s as seen by many Raptor fans and can finish at the rim when motivated to, which brings a good point....the difference between Hedo and VC is the level of motivation but i truly feel that VC will give it his all now that he is with a contending team, backed by scorers and a great Centre...

This move also allowed Lewis to go back to his true position at SF, because really i cant see him playing very well defensively at the PF against players like Bosh, Garnett and Duncan, and they added a scoring PF in Brandon Bass
and Anderson.

Matt Barnes is a good starting SF but now he's a backup and pietrus is another player who could be a good starting SG, these 2 players really strengthen their bench.

So yes they have improved, with the addition of VC the loss of Hedo is minimized and the additions of scoring PF's which they didnt have before and a stronger bench is definitely something that has to be accounted for

dhalvarez
08-21-2009, 09:38 PM
Vince Carter is a good scorer, but inconsistent. He has a habit of getting away from what he's good at which is attacking the basket.

He isn't the player of old and his skills are starting to diminish and his body is already starting to break down.

Orlando was a good run and gun team, and was really good at spreading the floor, one of the strengths of Hedo. Even Van Gundy accredited Hedo as being the x-factor and always wanted the ball in Hedo's hands during the playoffs.

Adding Vince will change Orlando's style of play, and Vince does get in the habit of taking quick rushed shots early in the shot clock.

I don't think Orlando's better.

Just have to see if Vince can do something he never did in his career and become what Hedo was in the playoffs for Orlando, which was run plays and hit shots when it counts during the playoffs!