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View Full Version : Which internationally-trained player is going to lead an NBA championship team first?



mrblisterdundee
08-20-2009, 01:29 PM
Everybody seems to think I'm biased against other nationalities because I think that an internationally-trained franchise player is too weak to take a team all the way in the NBA, where defensive toughness wins championships. Every team has one top dog, even if there are multiple players that are equally productive. Timmy is the top dog in San Antonio, even if Tony Parker produces more (which is debatable).
Now, since so many people think the jump-shooting, defensively lackadaisical international style of play is slowly taking over, I want to know who they think is going to do it first. Who is going to be the first internationally-trained alpha dog on a championship team?

Personally, I think Tony Parker has the best chance of doing it once Tim Duncan is no longer the number one leader.

sens#11fan
08-20-2009, 01:44 PM
hedo

Raps18-19 Champ
08-20-2009, 02:26 PM
Tony Parker already led the Spurs to the ring.

ink
08-20-2009, 02:51 PM
Everybody seems to think I'm biased against other nationalities because I think that an internationally-trained franchise player is too weak to take a team all the way in the NBA, where defensive toughness wins championships. Every team has one top dog, even if there are multiple players that are equally productive. Timmy is the top dog in San Antonio, even if Tony Parker produces more (which is debatable).
Now, since so many people think the jump-shooting, defensively lackadaisical international style of play is slowly taking over, I want to know who they think is going to do it first. Who is going to be the first internationally-trained alpha dog on a championship team?

Personally, I think Tony Parker has the best chance of doing it once Tim Duncan is no longer the number one leader.

Again your premise has huge flaws because it is so heavily biased:

1. you assume that the only way to win is to have a "top dog". Greece, Spain, the former Yugoslavia, the former Soviet Union, Argentina, all of these teams have proven that is false by beating rosters of American stars.

They don't buy into the "top dog" concept - a concept that is more NBA marketing and hype than anything else. The reason I bring up international play is because it's the only time the two systems directly play each other.

The fact that you use the "top dog" argument again shows that you don't get that this is a bias, not a fact.

2. you're portraying the International game as a jump-shooting, defensively lackadaisical style of play. If it was so "defensively lackadaisical" teams like Spain and Greece wouldn't have won major events by shutting down the offensive stars of Team USA.

3. you're incorrectly saying that people think this style is "slowly taking over'. No one is saying that at all.

Your thread topic is based on bias and skewed opinion.

ink
08-20-2009, 03:05 PM
Tony Parker already led the Spurs to the ring.

And that's only "if" we accept the bias that a team sport needs a "top dog".

In terms of leading their team to championships, Hakeem has done it, Pau has done it, and Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have done it. Tim Duncan is listed as an international player in every single publication that ever comes out about international players. The Spurs are actually a perfect example of balanced talent. In fact, TD is often criticized for not being the "alpha" that other superstars are. It's clear that they won and won often with international leaders.

The ship has already sailed. International players have already led their teams to championships.

Since several international players have already led their teams to NBA championships, maybe the question should be:

Who will the NEXT international player be to lead their team to a ring?

The Panch
08-20-2009, 03:13 PM
You mean Manu Ginobili.

Illuminati999
08-20-2009, 03:17 PM
And that's only "if" we accept the bias that a team sport needs a "top dog".

In terms of leading their team to championships, Hakeem has done it, Pau has done it, and Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have done it. Tim Duncan is listed as an international player in every single publication that ever comes out about international players. The Spurs are actually a perfect example of balanced talent. In fact, TD is often criticized for not being the "alpha" that other superstars are. It's clear that they won and won often with international leaders.

The ship has already sailed. International players have already led their teams to championships.

Since several international players have already led their teams to NBA championships, maybe the question should be:

Who will the NEXT international player be to lead their team to a ring?

I think he meant, "led the team" as in, captain/leader. Not to mention how can a natural born US citizen be considered an international player? He played for Team USA for God's sake.

"Persons born in the U.S. Virgin Islands are United States citizens..."

Illuminati999
08-20-2009, 03:18 PM
Well, call me biased and hopeful, I think the greatest international player of all time, Dirk Nowitzki, will do it at least once before he retires. He almost did it in 06'. Almost is not enough, but it would be my safest bet.

ink
08-20-2009, 03:21 PM
I think he meant, "led the team" as in, captain/leader. Not to mention how can a natural born US citizen be considered an international player? He played for Team USA for God's sake.

Well, he didn't say "captain/leader". The OP uses skewed descriptions like "weak" and "lackadaisical", he doesn't talk about captains and leaders. Hakeem, Pau, Manu and Parker are all leaders.

lakers4sho
08-20-2009, 03:23 PM
You mean Manu Ginobili.

your sig is fantastic :cool:

CityofTreez
08-20-2009, 03:24 PM
Omri Casspi, The Israeli Strikeforce, the Real Munich :D

Illuminati999
08-20-2009, 03:28 PM
Well, he didn't say "captain/leader". The OP uses skewed descriptions like "weak" and "lackadaisical", he doesn't talk about captains and leaders. Hakeem, Pau, Manu and Parker are all leaders.


Everybody seems to think I'm biased against other nationalities because I think that an internationally-trained franchise player is too weak to take a team all the way in the NBA, where defensive toughness wins championships. Every team has one top dog, even if there are multiple players that are equally productive. Timmy is the top dog in San Antonio, even if Tony Parker produces more (which is debatable).
Now, since so many people think the jump-shooting, defensively lackadaisical international style of play is slowly taking over, I want to know who they think is going to do it first. Who is going to be the first internationally-trained alpha dog on a championship team?

Personally, I think Tony Parker has the best chance of doing it once Tim Duncan is no longer the number one leader.

Hence why I said "think" and gave my interpretation of what he was asking. He mentioned the "top dog" on the team, Ginobili and Parker are not it. Generally (not all the time), the "top dog" on the team is the C or co-C.

But at least you now agree Tim Duncan is definitely not an international player, despite whatever publications you read state.

The Panch
08-20-2009, 03:30 PM
your sig is fantastic :cool:

It is, and there about the nicest set I have ever seen.

kobe24>lebron23
08-20-2009, 03:38 PM
Pau gasol did already

ink
08-20-2009, 04:04 PM
Hence why I said "think" and gave my interpretation of what he was asking. He mentioned the "top dog" on the team, Ginobili and Parker are not it. Generally (not all the time), the "top dog" on the team is the C or co-C.

But at least you now agree Tim Duncan is definitely not an international player, despite whatever publications you read state.

The whole "top dog" BS is still just bias. That's the problem with the thread. And if major publications are going to call TD an international player it's good enough for me. The point is that it's the balance on that team that makes them win, not any NBA marketed/hyped "top dog". The Spurs are the last team anyone would use to prove that you need a "top dog".

The bias against team play in a team game is just as flawed as the bias against international players.


Pau gasol did already

Exactly.

heatbb
08-20-2009, 04:05 PM
Pau gasol did already

Now Pau wasn't the actual leader of this team, wasn't he? Or did you forget the guy on your dp. :p

rabzouz 96
08-20-2009, 04:17 PM
he said internationally trained players. hakeem was trained in the usa and duncan as well. and no international player has led his team to a ship, parker is the closest thing, and thats because his style of play is rather "american". the first player to do so, will have this american style of play with athleticism and defense, i think a nowitzki or bargnani or gallinari will only be able to do so as a clear team leader in a perfect,perfect,perfect situation and roster and to build this is much harder than to players who are tough and athletic a.k.a american

ink
08-20-2009, 04:22 PM
he said internationally trained players. hakeem was trained in the usa and duncan as well. and no international player has led his team to a ship, parker is the closest thing, and thats because his style of play is rather "american". the first player to do so, will have this american style of play with athleticism and defense, i think a nowitzki or bargnani or gallinari will only be able to do so as a clear team leader in a perfect,perfect,perfect situation and roster and to build this is much harder than to players who are tough and athletic a.k.a american

You can lead without playing an American style of ball. :laugh2: That's just absurd. The thread is ridiculously biased.

Gibby23
08-20-2009, 04:40 PM
This thread is pretty stupid. There have been 3 in the last day.

jrice9
08-20-2009, 04:51 PM
Dirk led the Mavericks to the finals which went to 6 games. This will happen eventually.

mrblisterdundee
08-20-2009, 07:56 PM
Again your premise has huge flaws because it is so heavily biased:

1. you assume that the only way to win is to have a "top dog". Greece, Spain, the former Yugoslavia, the former Soviet Union, Argentina, all of these teams have proven that is false by beating rosters of American stars.

They don't buy into the "top dog" concept - a concept that is more NBA marketing and hype than anything else. The reason I bring up international play is because it's the only time the two systems directly play each other.

The fact that you use the "top dog" argument again shows that you don't get that this is a bias, not a fact.

2. you're portraying the International game as a jump-shooting, defensively lackadaisical style of play. If it was so "defensively lackadaisical" teams like Spain and Greece wouldn't have won major events by shutting down the offensive stars of Team USA.

3. you're incorrectly saying that people think this style is "slowly taking over'. No one is saying that at all.

Your thread topic is based on bias and skewed opinion.

How is it biased to say there has to be a top dog? Tim Duncan is the undisputed leader on the Spurs. Kobe is the undisputed leader on the Lakers. Kevin Garnett is the undisputed leader on the Celtics, even if Paul Pierce produces more. There's nine of the last 11 titles.

Last time I checked, there was one gold medal that the U.S. didn't win in the recent past.

If international-style is so defensively-adept, then why players trained in it tend to be defensively-lacking?

My thread is based on recent history, not a skewed opinion. Besides, I'm asking when it's going to happen, not if.

mrblisterdundee
08-20-2009, 07:58 PM
You can lead without playing an American style of ball. :laugh2: That's just absurd. The thread is ridiculously biased.

I didn't say you couldn't lead without being internationally-trained. This whole thread is about when an international player will lead a team to a title. You should probably stop injecting your biased opinion.

mrblisterdundee
08-20-2009, 08:01 PM
And that's only "if" we accept the bias that a team sport needs a "top dog".

In terms of leading their team to championships, Hakeem has done it, Pau has done it, and Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have done it. Tim Duncan is listed as an international player in every single publication that ever comes out about international players. The Spurs are actually a perfect example of balanced talent. In fact, TD is often criticized for not being the "alpha" that other superstars are. It's clear that they won and won often with international leaders.

The ship has already sailed. International players have already led their teams to championships.

Since several international players have already led their teams to NBA championships, maybe the question should be:

Who will the NEXT international player be to lead their team to a ring?

I said internationally-trained, not international. Tim and Hakeem learned what made them great in the U.S., not the Virgin Islands and Nigeria. Please read the post more closely before responding.

mrblisterdundee
08-20-2009, 08:05 PM
Well, he didn't say "captain/leader". The OP uses skewed descriptions like "weak" and "lackadaisical", he doesn't talk about captains and leaders. Hakeem, Pau, Manu and Parker are all leaders.

Top dog means captain, the number one guy, the big boss-ola. Do I have to spell everything out for you? Pau, Manu, and Parker are not the captain of any of their respective teams.
How long before you realize that your number of posts doesn't automatically make you an expert? It just means you spend more time on Pro Sports Daily.

mrblisterdundee
08-20-2009, 08:09 PM
The whole "top dog" BS is still just bias. That's the problem with the thread. And if major publications are going to call TD an international player it's good enough for me. The point is that it's the balance on that team that makes them win, not any NBA marketed/hyped "top dog". The Spurs are the last team anyone would use to prove that you need a "top dog".

The bias against team play in a team game is just as flawed as the bias against international players.



Exactly.

Once again, I said internationally-trained. Do the Virgin Islands even have a basketball team that Tim Duncan could have trained on? Does Nigeria have the kind of powerhouse big men that could teach Hakeem to stardom? And no, Pau didn't lead his team to anything; Kobe did, smart one.

ink
08-20-2009, 08:12 PM
Once again, I said internationally-trained. Do the Virgin Islands even have a basketball team that Tim Duncan could have trained on? Does Nigeria have the kind of powerhouse big men that could teach Hakeem to stardom? And no, Pau didn't lead his team to anything; Kobe did, smart one.

Pau certainly did lead his team. And so did Manu and Parker. Maybe you just don't understand how team sports work. It's NBA marketing hype that says that there's a top dog. That's all. Teams are led in all different ways: by example, vocally, by their leading scorer, by their glue guys, by their inspirational leaders. Not all "leaders" are leading scorers, and not all leading scorers are leaders. Only on posters up in teenage boys' rooms. lol. The whole concept is little more than a marketing invention. And you could have multi-quoted instead of wasting all that space to tell me what I already knew. You better check your basketball history if you don't know how many World Championships and Olympics non-USA teams have won. They've been able to shut down the US when they do, and that means they play solid D. I'll give you Hakeem, but the others I've mentioned are all leaders and all have rings. So, what international players will be next?

BlondeBomber41
08-20-2009, 08:48 PM
If the refs didnt totally suck on a fat **** then Dirk would of already done it.

ink
08-20-2009, 08:55 PM
If the refs didnt totally suck on a fat **** then Dirk would of already done it.

Totally agree.