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View Full Version : Why do teams base their franchises around international players?



mrblisterdundee
08-18-2009, 02:58 PM
The only international player to ever take his team all the way was the Nigerian Hakeem "The Dream," and he was only a co-leader along with Clyde "The Glide." Tim Duncan doesn't really count as international, being from a U.S. colony.
Phoenix is lead by a very talented Canadian point guard, and they've ended up as one of the only lottery to ever lead the league in offensive efficiency. Dallas is lead by a talented German power forward who has failed under pressure every time. Toronto keeps stacking its roster with international talent, and keeps losing because it relies to much on jump-shooting. Houston isn't included in this group, since their international leader never stays on the court long enough to prove his worth.
It seems that international players just don't have the tenacity or toughness to take a team to the Promised Land. They work well as the second or third most important part of a team (like in San Antonio and Los Angeles), but they can't really carry a team. Why do some NBA teams keep thinking they can be lead to greatness by anybody other than an American player?

Hellcrooner
08-18-2009, 03:05 PM
1 hakeem led rockets to a ring with NO GLYDE in 1994

2 an international will end up leading a team to a ring eventuallay, in fact it shojldhave happened, but we better not talk bout referiing in the mavs, heat finals....

MajorFloridaFan
08-18-2009, 03:07 PM
Im glad my team does not do that...i think euro players are kinda softer...with dirk being the only exception

Rocket_lover
08-18-2009, 03:08 PM
yao ming has proven his worth...he might not have any rings or trophys to show it but ask all the centers that try to stop him and cant.

and internatinal players bring more money to the team, more ratings, more sells, more fans.

MajorFloridaFan
08-18-2009, 03:09 PM
Yao is sooo soft though..but talented soo many injuries...if he had more aggression in him he would be great

Rocket_lover
08-18-2009, 03:14 PM
Yao is sooo soft though..but talented soo many injuries...if he had more aggression in him he would be great

that is true, i cant defend yao on that one...but thats not the point he is still the second best if not the best center in the nba...if u seen the rockets magic games...yao takes it over dwight but i guess with all the accomplishments howard has he deserves the number 1 spot at the center postion....but i disagree with him being umproven....he is a force and an elite force and no one can argue against that....

ZebraCity916
08-18-2009, 03:17 PM
Yao is sooo soft though..but talented soo many injuries...if he had more aggression in him he would be great

I agree but I think if he was more aggressive he might be hurt even more often than he is now. HAHA

MajorFloridaFan
08-18-2009, 03:20 PM
He is proven....he is 7'3 dwight 6'11 thus far has limited offensive game...thats where he struggles..but when it comes to heart hustle rebounds and blocked shots there is no comparison...but yao has a sweet touch that gives howard fits....The ceiling is higher for dwight....and right next to him is yao....but yao and his foot will miss another year while dwight continues to grow in all areas....for basketball's sake i hope yao returns strong as hell....its rare to have a good center on your team..especially 1 who is number like howard and 2 is yao and no one is close to them at all

Rocket_lover
08-18-2009, 03:25 PM
yea i agree but once the foot gets fixed watch out for yao...big Z had the same surgery and hes become very succesful

but this thread isnt about yao v dwight its y r internatinal players franchise players and i think i answered the question right...they bring more rating,money,sells and fans...

Mavrix
08-18-2009, 03:28 PM
What does being international have to do with anything? Just because you're of a different race doesn't mean you can't accomplish anything. The NBA hasn't had many great international athletes until the past 15-20 years. You can't judge 5-10 great international players based on career accomplishments especially from the past 15-20 years; that doesn't make any sense. The vast ratio of American superstars to international superstars is why. Obviously if there were more International players they would accomplish more.

Raps08-09 Champ
08-18-2009, 03:28 PM
Maybe because those international players are good.

Was it Nash, Dirk, Yao and a bouple of other player's fault because they didn't win.

blazerman
08-18-2009, 03:31 PM
He is proven....he is 7'3 dwight 6'11 thus far has limited offensive game...thats where he struggles..but when it comes to heart hustle rebounds and blocked shots there is no comparison...but yao has a sweet touch that gives howard fits....The ceiling is higher for dwight....and right next to him is yao....but yao and his foot will miss another year while dwight continues to grow in all areas....for basketball's sake i hope yao returns strong as hell....its rare to have a good center on your team..especially 1 who is number like howard and 2 is yao and no one is close to them at all

You are seriously disrespecting the Mavs and Dampier if he's not in the conversation with with Yao and Howard!:pity:

MajorFloridaFan
08-18-2009, 03:33 PM
What does being international have to do with anything? Just because you're of a different race doesn't mean you can't accomplish anything. The NBA hasn't had many great international athletes until the past 15-20 years. You can't judge 5-10 great international players based on career accomplishments especially from the past 15-20 years; that doesn't make any sense. The vast ratio of American superstars to international superstars is why. Obviously if there were more International players they would accomplish more.

No man you completely missing the point...if you know basketball....Americans play more aggresive physical style...the euros play finesse....they have different rules...like grabbing you at half court instead of letting you sprint for a fastbreak dunk...and they used to use a trapezoid paint.. at least they just changed that...and there three line is closer...there level of play isnt as good over there as it is here...it takes a euro player years to adjust to the physicality of the game....they rarely do...and they train there 7 footers to shoot instead of power rebounding and dunking..they just plain play a different style of ball

MajorFloridaFan
08-18-2009, 03:34 PM
You are seriously disrespecting the Mavs and Dampier if he's not in the conversation with with Yao and Howard!:pity:

HAHAH your sarcasm always gets me like WTF at first then i realize your playing haha i am used to ya now....ERICKA dampier..ask shaq that question

Hellcrooner
08-18-2009, 03:37 PM
i would love someone to tell how soft is leaving dwight howard in 15 ppg int he finals.....

or how unimpresive is being the scoring leaderd of the spurs over duncan and wining mvp over duncan....

Rocket_lover
08-18-2009, 03:40 PM
two good points hell cooner

MajorFloridaFan
08-18-2009, 03:42 PM
Dwight howard was not soft..exposed.
and i said he needs to work on his offesnive game....if he even shot beter from the line he would average 2-3 more points a game.....and add a jumper...he would be in the mid 20's along with his 13 rebounds and 3 blocks...its ok you can hate on dwight many people do...

BkOriginalOne
08-18-2009, 03:48 PM
Tim Duncan might be the greatest PF of all time.
That should say it all.

MajorFloridaFan
08-18-2009, 03:51 PM
Tim Duncan might be the greatest PF of all time.
That should say it all.

it should since he is a PF not a center

RaptorsFanatic
08-18-2009, 03:56 PM
Wow, another thread targeted at the Raps.

WHAT THE **** IS UP WITH PSD AND ALL THESE THREADS THESE DAYS EITHER DIRECTLY AT THE RAPTORS OR SOMEWHAT AFFILIATED WITH THEM.

GTFO, honestly....

AntiG
08-18-2009, 03:59 PM
there have been plenty of American star players that have constantly failed as well. It isn't just an international trait. this thread is so stupid.

DubiousCustomer
08-18-2009, 04:09 PM
Let the flaming begin.

So, except for Hakeem, you all think that there will never again be a championship winner led by an international player? Based on what, the increasing amount of talent the NBA is harvesting overseas?

This is so absurd all I can say is do you think the talent level of the NBA is decreasing over the last 5 years?

Winning a championship is way more about luck/probability than where your players were born...what an arcane notion. This reminds me of when Larry Bird commented about how he took personal offense when a team put a white guy on him on D. He sounded like a total fool. Why? Because being white or black doesn't have anything to do with your abilities to play D, just like being born in a different country doesn't have anything to do with your abilities to pound inside, shoot threes, or whatever.

Holy gross generalizations Batman.

clutchski
08-18-2009, 04:10 PM
Kobe wouldn't have won it without Pau (and other players). I'm just sayin that it's not like one american star wins the title by himself..it's obviously the best team as a whole.

Gibby23
08-18-2009, 04:12 PM
Im glad my team does not do that...i think euro players are kinda softer...with dirk being the only exception

The big man on your team got outplayed by Gasol in the finals.

theuuord
08-18-2009, 04:24 PM
moneymoneymoneymooooney

ink
08-18-2009, 04:31 PM
I'm not saying the OP's intention was to stir this up, but there is a lot of prejudice and uninformed stereotyping going on in this thread. It's deteriorating fast, so don't be surprised if it doesn't get closed if the discussion doesn't improve.

It's on you guys to improve it if you want the thread to stay open.

ink
08-18-2009, 04:34 PM
What does being international have to do with anything? Just because you're of a different race doesn't mean you can't accomplish anything. The NBA hasn't had many great international athletes until the past 15-20 years. You can't judge 5-10 great international players based on career accomplishments especially from the past 15-20 years; that doesn't make any sense. The vast ratio of American superstars to international superstars is why. Obviously if there were more International players they would accomplish more.

100% agree.

You've given solid points instead of stereotypes.

scully8743
08-18-2009, 04:35 PM
who cares where they're from, if they're the best player on the team then they're the best player on the team because they work harder than everybody else.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2009, 04:46 PM
God i can only imagine waht woudl hapen if COlangelo really did what he wants and hired ettore messina as coach and raps had some succes...

JordansBulls
08-18-2009, 04:48 PM
The only international player to ever take his team all the way was the Nigerian Hakeem "The Dream," and he was only a co-leader along with Clyde "The Glide." Tim Duncan doesn't really count as international, being from a U.S. colony.
Phoenix is lead by a very talented Canadian point guard, and they've ended up as one of the only lottery to ever lead the league in offensive efficiency. Dallas is lead by a talented German power forward who has failed under pressure every time. Toronto keeps stacking its roster with international talent, and keeps losing because it relies to much on jump-shooting. Houston isn't included in this group, since their international leader never stays on the court long enough to prove his worth.
It seems that international players just don't have the tenacity or toughness to take a team to the Promised Land. They work well as the second or third most important part of a team (like in San Antonio and Los Angeles), but they can't really carry a team. Why do some NBA teams keep thinking they can be lead to greatness by anybody other than an American player?


If they can win gold medals against the Americans then why can't they win a title and lead a team?

lakers4sho
08-18-2009, 04:49 PM
umm because they're good?? :confused:

Trouble87
08-18-2009, 04:52 PM
I don't think teams purposely build behind international players, they build behind players with the most ability

you draft a foreign player with amazing ability and potential... run with it

dhalvarez
08-18-2009, 04:56 PM
two good points hell cooner

This just seems to be another poor thread that seems to be discriminating towards the growing number of international players that seem to be entering the NBA each year.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2009, 05:04 PM
mm since i know nothing bout it i never chek psd baseball forums.....do this kind of threads happens about cuba, dominica or venezuelan players???

montazingmvp
08-18-2009, 06:48 PM
No man you completely missing the point...if you know basketball....Americans play more aggresive physical style...the euros play finesse....they have different rules...like grabbing you at half court instead of letting you sprint for a fastbreak dunk...and they used to use a trapezoid paint.. at least they just changed that...and there three line is closer...there level of play isnt as good over there as it is here...it takes a euro player years to adjust to the physicality of the game....they rarely do...and they train there 7 footers to shoot instead of power rebounding and dunking..they just plain play a different style of ball

this is just stupid.

europeans have been playing basketball for about 20 years now...americans have been playing for 60+ years. the sport is still not that popular at all in europe. the top tier athletes in europe play soccer not basketball...

i love this arrogance some americans have about them that other countries simply cannot kep up with american athletes...well, not true.

americans aren't good at soccer for the same reasons the rest of the world isn't good at basketball...

it has nothing to do with one race of people being softer than others...or whatever other odd misconceptions you have couped up in your brain

DetroitRipCity
08-18-2009, 07:50 PM
Im glad my team does not do that...i think euro players are kinda softer...with dirk being the only exception

dirk is pretty soft himself hes a 7'0 jumpshooter

MajorFloridaFan
08-18-2009, 07:55 PM
this is just stupid.

europeans have been playing basketball for about 20 years now...americans have been playing for 60+ years. the sport is still not that popular at all in europe. the top tier athletes in europe play soccer not basketball...

i love this arrogance some americans have about them that other countries simply cannot kep up with american athletes...well, not true.

americans aren't good at soccer for the same reasons the rest of the world isn't good at basketball...

it has nothing to do with one race of people being softer than others...or whatever other odd misconceptions you have couped up in your brain

you still missed the point...i am not talking quality of athletes at all man get with it... you brought that up...i am talking about the way the approach the game...2 different stlyes of basketball....1 league is more physical than the other its a known fact..race lol maybe you are the one worried about that..just two different brands.... and gasol did one hell of a job against howard....

mrblisterdundee
08-18-2009, 08:20 PM
i would love someone to tell how soft is leaving dwight howard in 15 ppg int he finals.....

or how unimpresive is being the scoring leaderd of the spurs over duncan and wining mvp over duncan....

Pau didn't do anything by himself, because he's weak like most other international big men. It was him, Bynum, and Odom combining that kept Dwight Howard at 15 points per game.

Parker only won finals MVP because there was nobody to guard him on the Cavaliers. He was going against guys like Larry Hughes and Eric Snow. The Cavaliers only had the front court to go against Duncan.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2009, 08:25 PM
yeah yeah bynum was so helpfull inlike the 5 minutes per game before he was over and over sent to the bench with foul trouble. :P

get ovr it soft europ OWNED dwightin the finals deffensive and ofensively (somethin he had done in the olympic final too by th way where it was the wings who own the game for usa)


and by the way basket has been layed in europe for 80 years.

mrblisterdundee
08-18-2009, 08:26 PM
If they can win gold medals against the Americans then why can't they win a title and lead a team?

That lone gold medal was simply because the Americans were being pissy. American basketball players are tougher, and that's why they are almost always the leaders on championship teams.

mrblisterdundee
08-18-2009, 08:31 PM
yeah yeah bynum was so helpfull inlike the 5 minutes per game before he was over and over sent to the bench with foul trouble. :P

get ovr it soft europ OWNED dwightin the finals deffensive and ofensively (somethin he had done in the olympic final too by th way where it was the wings who own the game for usa)


and by the way basket has been layed in europe for 80 years.

Europe didn't own anything. The combination of Pau, Bynum, and Odom owned on Howard. Besides, Pau also got to play against a small forward forced into playing power forward.

Basketball was invented by a Canadian, but that doesn't mean that international players aren't soft. Why does it matter if Europeans have been playing basketball for 80 years? That just proves even more that they're too soft to lead teams to a championship. Offense sells tickets and defense wins games, and international players are weak liabilities on defense.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2009, 08:49 PM
man you better stick to NFl in the future or you will be very angry.


Theres no risk at the moment tough that some dirty foreigner corrupts the manly game of Football.

theuuord
08-18-2009, 08:57 PM
Pau didn't do anything by himself, because he's weak like most other international big men. It was him, Bynum, and Odom combining that kept Dwight Howard at 15 points per game.

do your research.

Dwight Howard dealt with single coverage in Game 5 and still couldn't muster any offense. Pau Gasol guarded him on 38 possessions and didn't allow Howard to score from the field.
Defending Dwight Howard - Magic Half-Court Offensive Possessions
Primary Defender Possessions Pct Howard's numbers
Andrew Bynum 31 43.7 10 pts (5-5 FG, 0-1 FT)
Pau Gasol 38 53.5 1 pts 0-4 FG, 1-2 FT)
Lamar Odom 2 2.8 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0 FT)
Total 71 N/A 11 pts (5-9 FG, 1-3 FT)
>Double-teams on 1 of 71 possessions (1.4 pct)

Pau Gasol outperformed Dwight Howard in the paint. Gasol also scored 16 points outside the paint; Howard had 0.
Pau Gasol vs Dwight Howard in paint - NBA Finals
Category FG Pts
Gasol 28-44 56
Howard 21-42 42


Game 4
With 3:44 left in the 1st quarter Pau Gasol picked up his 2nd foul. At this point Gasol and Bynum both had 2 fouls, and Orlando was up 16-13. For the final 7 possessions of the quarter Howard was guarded by DJ Mbenga (6 poss) and Lamar Odom (1 poss), and he managed to score only 1 point. He touched the ball 1 time in the stretch and scored zero points in the 6 possessions he was guarded by Mbenga. The Magic ended the quarter up 4 points, but did not take advantage of a huge opportunity to expand their lead. Howard was rarely double-teamed, yet still did not make a big scoring impact.
Defending Dwight Howard - Magic Half-Court Offensive Possessions
Primary Defender Possessions Pct. Howard's Numbers
Pau Gasol 54 58.1 10 pts (4-9 FG, 2-8 FT)
Andrew Bynum 28 30.1 5 pts (1-3 FG, 3-4 FT)
D.J. Mbenga 6 6.5 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0 FT)
Lamar Odom 3 3.2 1 pts (0-0 FG, 1-2 FT)
Kobe Bryant 1 1.1 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0FT)
Derek Fisher 1 1.1 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0FT)
>Double-teamed on 2 of 93 possessions (2.2%)

Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol were the primary defenders on Howard in Game 3. Howard ended up with 21 points, his highest scoring output of the Finals.
Defending Dwight Howard - Magic Half-Court Offensive Possessions
Primary Defender Possessions Pct. Howard's Numbers
Andrew Bynum 41 51.3 11 pts (4-4 FG, 3-6 FT)
Pau Gasol 37 46.3 5 pts (1-2 FG, 3-4 FT)
Lamar Odom 1 1.2 5 pts (0-0 FG, 5-6 FT)
D.J. Mbenga 1 1.2 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0 FT)

etc. long story short, Gasol was the primary man defender on Howard the entire series and defended him much better than any other Laker defender.

jrice9
08-18-2009, 09:22 PM
Just out of curiosity even if you dont count Hakeem which you should didnt Dirk lead Dallas to the finals and then they lost to a team with two superstars and got a shitload of calls?

mavs_raps90
08-18-2009, 09:24 PM
DIRK IS ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM PF!!!

MVP!!

this is an idiotic thread

montazingmvp
08-18-2009, 09:27 PM
Europe didn't own anything. The combination of Pau, Bynum, and Odom owned on Howard. Besides, Pau also got to play against a small forward forced into playing power forward.

Basketball was invented by a Canadian, but that doesn't mean that international players aren't soft. Why does it matter if Europeans have been playing basketball for 80 years? That just proves even more that they're too soft to lead teams to a championship. Offense sells tickets and defense wins games, and international players are weak liabilities on defense.

you think it doesn't make a difference that americans have been playing the sport for triple the amount of time that europeans have?

well it certainly does make a difference....

whats your excuse for why the US sucks so hard at soccer...

Spurred1
08-18-2009, 09:51 PM
This really seems like a hate thread. Not sure if that is the intention, but that is how it comes off...
Parker is from France and he was amazing in the Finals against Cleveland a couple of years ago.
Pau was a huge reason for LA winning. Bynum spent a lot of time on the bench and Gasol/Odom limited Howard.
The excuses made by the OP for why those two won their rings are ridiculous and take away from what they legitimately accomplished.

DeeJay
08-19-2009, 09:02 AM
Europe didn't own anything. The combination of Pau, Bynum, and Odom owned on Howard. Besides, Pau also got to play against a small forward forced into playing power forward.

Basketball was invented by a Canadian, but that doesn't mean that international players aren't soft. Why does it matter if Europeans have been playing basketball for 80 years? That just proves even more that they're too soft to lead teams to a championship. Offense sells tickets and defense wins games, and international players are weak liabilities on defense.

:facepalm:

Ignorance is a beautiful thing.
And please don't pm me, because I don't agree with you, like the last time.

JayW_1023
08-19-2009, 09:06 AM
Tony Parker is the 2007 Finals MVP. In 2005 Manu arguably was the Spurs Finals MVP...tearing through a defensive powerhouse like Detroit effortlessly. Nice try though.

JayW_1023
08-19-2009, 09:15 AM
do your research.

Dwight Howard dealt with single coverage in Game 5 and still couldn't muster any offense. Pau Gasol guarded him on 38 possessions and didn't allow Howard to score from the field.
Defending Dwight Howard - Magic Half-Court Offensive Possessions
Primary Defender Possessions Pct Howard's numbers
Andrew Bynum 31 43.7 10 pts (5-5 FG, 0-1 FT)
Pau Gasol 38 53.5 1 pts 0-4 FG, 1-2 FT)
Lamar Odom 2 2.8 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0 FT)
Total 71 N/A 11 pts (5-9 FG, 1-3 FT)
>Double-teams on 1 of 71 possessions (1.4 pct)

Pau Gasol outperformed Dwight Howard in the paint. Gasol also scored 16 points outside the paint; Howard had 0.
Pau Gasol vs Dwight Howard in paint - NBA Finals
Category FG Pts
Gasol 28-44 56
Howard 21-42 42


Game 4
With 3:44 left in the 1st quarter Pau Gasol picked up his 2nd foul. At this point Gasol and Bynum both had 2 fouls, and Orlando was up 16-13. For the final 7 possessions of the quarter Howard was guarded by DJ Mbenga (6 poss) and Lamar Odom (1 poss), and he managed to score only 1 point. He touched the ball 1 time in the stretch and scored zero points in the 6 possessions he was guarded by Mbenga. The Magic ended the quarter up 4 points, but did not take advantage of a huge opportunity to expand their lead. Howard was rarely double-teamed, yet still did not make a big scoring impact.
Defending Dwight Howard - Magic Half-Court Offensive Possessions
Primary Defender Possessions Pct. Howard's Numbers
Pau Gasol 54 58.1 10 pts (4-9 FG, 2-8 FT)
Andrew Bynum 28 30.1 5 pts (1-3 FG, 3-4 FT)
D.J. Mbenga 6 6.5 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0 FT)
Lamar Odom 3 3.2 1 pts (0-0 FG, 1-2 FT)
Kobe Bryant 1 1.1 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0FT)
Derek Fisher 1 1.1 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0FT)
>Double-teamed on 2 of 93 possessions (2.2%)

Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol were the primary defenders on Howard in Game 3. Howard ended up with 21 points, his highest scoring output of the Finals.
Defending Dwight Howard - Magic Half-Court Offensive Possessions
Primary Defender Possessions Pct. Howard's Numbers
Andrew Bynum 41 51.3 11 pts (4-4 FG, 3-6 FT)
Pau Gasol 37 46.3 5 pts (1-2 FG, 3-4 FT)
Lamar Odom 1 1.2 5 pts (0-0 FG, 5-6 FT)
D.J. Mbenga 1 1.2 0 pts (0-0 FG, 0-0 FT)

etc. long story short, Gasol was the primary man defender on Howard the entire series and defended him much better than any other Laker defender.

Well said.