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Mile High Champ
08-12-2009, 12:58 PM
Well the top 10 at each position is now complete, time to end it with the final poll's. This year we will have a vote to see who are the 10 best players in the NBA are. The format is the exact same so please make your vote for who you feel are the best player in the league. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

NBA Player Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

MPScribbles
08-12-2009, 01:00 PM
It's Deron Williams, people!

DCSportsIsPain
08-12-2009, 01:00 PM
It has to be Roy. Why even bother with the poll?

Mile High Champ
08-12-2009, 01:00 PM
Poll is now up, removed a lot of guys since they were not getting any votes. Better to have the votes going somewhere this time.

jimbobjarree
08-12-2009, 01:01 PM
D Will

ManRam
08-12-2009, 01:04 PM
Yao-easily when healthy.

I'd go Roy, then Durant, then Williams then Bosh after that.

MPScribbles
08-12-2009, 01:04 PM
Quick, close the poll now so Deron wins in a landslide. 2-1 over Roy. Do it now before people get in here and taint the results.

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 01:06 PM
I had to vote Roy. In a year from now, Durant may very well be a top 5 player though, looking back at this upcoming season

Chronz
08-12-2009, 01:07 PM
Deron has got nothin on Roy

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 01:08 PM
Yao-easily when healthy.

I'd go Roy, then Durant, then Williams then Bosh after that.

at what point can we remove the, "if healthy" tag from Yao? He hasn't been. He isn't going to be. You can't be top anything if you don't play. I mean, he finally has a healthy regular season, then breaks down in the playoffs anyways. Until he proves he can stay on his feet for 75 games and playoffs, Yao should not be considered a top player, period.

DCSportsIsPain
08-12-2009, 01:10 PM
at what point can we remove the, "if healthy" tag from Yao? He hasn't been. He isn't going to be. You can't be top anything if you don't play. I mean, he finally has a healthy regular season, then breaks down in the playoffs anyways. Until he proves he can stay on his feet for 75 games and playoffs, Yao should not be considered a top player, period.

I agree with this. If healthy, Gilbert Arenas belongs ahead of most of these players. He isn't and he doesn't. Ditto for Yao.

JordansBulls
08-12-2009, 01:10 PM
I understand what you want to do with the poll, but this is off IMO.

Yao Ming
Chris Bosh
Deron Williams
Brandon Roy
Kevin Durant


Some of those guys even with talent have just lost in the 1st round with HCA. Others have not even made the playoffs or ever passed the 1st round.


Where is Gasol at? Where is Pierce at? Where are the guys who have actually showed up to play in the conference finals and/or nba finals?

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 01:15 PM
I understand what you want to do with the poll, but this is off IMO.

Yao Ming
Chris Bosh
Deron Williams
Brandon Roy
Kevin Durant


Some of those guys even with talent have just lost in the 1st round with HCA. Others have not even made the playoffs or ever passed the 1st round.


Where is Gasol at? Where is Pierce at? Where are the guys who have actually showed up to play in the conference finals and/or nba finals?

Gasol is not a top 10 player, no way. Pierce was, 3 years ago. Getting support from your front office finally, or being traded in a gift doesn't just make them better. There is no way Gasol or Pierce are better individually than Roy, Durant, or Williams. And as I said, Yao doesn't belong on any of these lists. He is out AT LEAST this next year entirely. He will be the best dressed chinese dude on the bench, bout it.

MPScribbles
08-12-2009, 01:24 PM
Deron has got nothin on Roy

Nothing, Chronz?
Advantage Deron
Passing
Ball Handling
FT Shooting
FG Shooting

Push
Defense

Advantage Roy
3pt Shooting, barely
Rebounding, may have something to do with being taller
Scoring, although he is their primary threat while Deron has to distribute

Roy is a very good player but to say that Deron has nothing on him is a stretch.

op12
08-12-2009, 01:24 PM
ill buy roy but if yao was healthy he is ahead of melo and roy

AIsixersFK
08-12-2009, 01:38 PM
Bradon Roy is a beast. He will be bigger than he is now come next season. Minny is prolly like :bang:

Chronz
08-12-2009, 01:44 PM
Nothing, Chronz?
Advantage Deron
Passing
Ball Handling
FT Shooting
FG Shooting

Push
Defense

Advantage Roy
3pt Shooting, barely
Rebounding, may have something to do with being taller
Scoring, although he is their primary threat while Deron has to distribute

Roy is a very good player but to say that Deron has nothing on him is a stretch.
Offense: Roy
Defense : Push
Intangibles: Roy

Hes got nothing on Roy. Sure if you breakdown their individual games you'll find something anyone in the league is better at vs another, but when I say nothing, I mean Im looking at the totality of their offensive games, Roy is far and away one of the most efficient basketball players in the league. And he does this without getting to the line, its truly disgusting how skilled he is, if he ever develops truly elusive handles (or maybe hes just not quick enough), and finds a way to get to the line more hes going to be unstoppable.

AntiG
08-12-2009, 01:46 PM
I'd say Chauncey Billups or Paul Pierce here but they aren't options.

Diggy_2
08-12-2009, 01:51 PM
Roy!!!!!!!

ManRam
08-12-2009, 01:59 PM
at what point can we remove the, "if healthy" tag from Yao? He hasn't been. He isn't going to be. You can't be top anything if you don't play. I mean, he finally has a healthy regular season, then breaks down in the playoffs anyways. Until he proves he can stay on his feet for 75 games and playoffs, Yao should not be considered a top player, period.

It doesn't take away any of his skill or talent. Whether healthy or not, he's a top 10 player. We are ranking the best players...Yao is better than all of those players. End of story.


I agree with this. If healthy, Gilbert Arenas belongs ahead of most of these players. He isn't and he doesn't. Ditto for Yao.

Gil is not better than those players, healthy or not. I don't need a 40% shot chucker on my team.

clutchski
08-12-2009, 02:12 PM
I'm disappointed..I think it should be DWill.

Kakaroach
08-12-2009, 02:15 PM
Deron Williams.

tland22
08-12-2009, 02:17 PM
still guna say Yao Ming then D Will and Roy are up for grabs. id take D Will over Roy though

tland22
08-12-2009, 02:18 PM
It doesn't take away any of his skill or talent. Whether healthy or not, he's a top 10 player. We are ranking the best players...Yao is better than all of those players. End of story.



Gil is not better than those players, healthy or not. I don't need a 40% shot chucker on my team.


I soooooooo agree with your point on YAO MING...

IversonIsKrazy
08-12-2009, 02:25 PM
c'mon pplz, its Deron. Roy nor Durrant nor Bosh have made the 2nd round. THere still too young, Deron around their age, went to the WCF in 2007 to lose to the champion Spurs. C'mon, its d-will.

jimbobjarree
08-12-2009, 02:31 PM
if you were starting a franchise, out of these guys I think the majority would take Deron 1st, Roy's great and all, but I'd take the star PG first. This is the last year D Will is an all star virgin, so I suppose use that excuse while its still there

Chronz
08-12-2009, 02:49 PM
c'mon pplz, its Deron. Roy nor Durrant nor Bosh have made the 2nd round. THere still too young, Deron around their age, went to the WCF in 2007 to lose to the champion Spurs. C'mon, its d-will.
Making the WCF doesnt make you a better player, it makes your teams situation better.

How can AI go from making the Finals in his youth, to missing the playoffs in his prime? His TEAMMATES.

Chronz
08-12-2009, 02:49 PM
if you were starting a franchise, out of these guys I think the majority would take Deron 1st, Roy's great and all, but I'd take the star PG first. This is the last year D Will is an all star virgin, so I suppose use that excuse while its still there

The majority of what?

Corey
08-12-2009, 02:56 PM
I love that the reasoning behind not putting Gasol and Pierce (among others) on this poll is that they have a good team around them.

Their just as efficient as many of the players already chosen, but don't get the hype because they have complete teams around them and don't need to drop 25+ each game. It amazes me that being on a good team, with more than one option on the offensive end automatically decreases the value of a player.

:sigh:

bigsams50
08-12-2009, 02:57 PM
i voted deron

Mile High Champ
08-12-2009, 02:57 PM
I understand what you want to do with the poll, but this is off IMO.

Yao Ming
Chris Bosh
Deron Williams
Brandon Roy
Kevin Durant


Some of those guys even with talent have just lost in the 1st round with HCA. Others have not even made the playoffs or ever passed the 1st round.


Where is Gasol at? Where is Pierce at? Where are the guys who have actually showed up to play in the conference finals and/or nba finals?


Look through the past polls, the players you mentioned were not getting any votes. I removed them in order to provide for a tighter race with the players that were actually getting votes...

Chronz
08-12-2009, 03:01 PM
I love that the reasoning behind not putting Gasol and Pierce (among others) on this poll is that they have a good team around them.

Their just as efficient as many of the players already chosen, but don't get the hype because they have complete teams around them and don't need to drop 25+ each game. It amazes me that being on a good team, with more than one option on the offensive end automatically decreases the value of a player.

:sigh:

So true, but Pierce is declining on both ends. He needs to get his thickness back

B.JenningsMVP
08-12-2009, 03:03 PM
Roy owns D-Will's assssssssss :D

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-12-2009, 03:07 PM
LOL... if DWill doesn't get (which he shouldn't) Jazz fan's will give us an earfull...


BRING ON THA HATE!!!


and now maybe they can all see.. THE PSD WORLD HAS SPOKEN!... CP>>>>>>>>>WILLIE.

Chronz
08-12-2009, 03:11 PM
Can we delete all the votes from members who have less than 1 post on their accounts, there are like 5 celtic accounts and a euro fan who have never posted on this site yet are voting for Deron.

Seems to me someone is trying awfully hard to sway the votes in his favor. Hes either a Celtic fan from Europe, or the exact opposite meaning a Laker fan in Cali.

AllDay28
08-12-2009, 03:14 PM
roy...

jim51990
08-12-2009, 03:24 PM
its d will for sure though kg should be off for roy or durrant but williams is clearly better then them

RaptorsFanatic
08-12-2009, 03:26 PM
I still don't know, but Deron doesn't seem to prove to me that he is a top 10 player in this league.

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 03:30 PM
It doesn't take away any of his skill or talent. Whether healthy or not, he's a top 10 player. We are ranking the best players...Yao is better than all of those players. End of story.



Gil is not better than those players, healthy or not. I don't need a 40% shot chucker on my team.

not if he isn't playing. End of story.

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 03:33 PM
I love that the reasoning behind not putting Gasol and Pierce (among others) on this poll is that they have a good team around them.

Their just as efficient as many of the players already chosen, but don't get the hype because they have complete teams around them and don't need to drop 25+ each game. It amazes me that being on a good team, with more than one option on the offensive end automatically decreases the value of a player.

:sigh:

I was the only one who responded. I said, Pierce WAS, 3 years ago. You can't tell me he is individually as good as he was in 2005 for example.
And Gasol was never a top 10 player. Kobe has a GREAT team around him. He is still a top 2 player in the NBA, so I am not sure where you get that reasoning from.
Pierce was maybe the most unstoppable scorer in the NBA in the early 2000's. But his game has declined, so in no way is this a shot at him.

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 03:36 PM
I seriously don't get the when healthy Yao crap. People, he is gone for the entire next season. He crapped out yet again in the playoffs this year. I will concede, WHEN HEALTHY, yes, he is maybe the top C, and a top 10 player. But he isn't. ANd he won't be. The days of healthy Yao Ming are gone. He needs to be recognized for what he is now, not being rated on his past. I can not be convinced otherwise, and the if healthy stuff has to stop with this guy. Houston, and everyone knew what they were getting when they drafted him. A 320 lb guy, whose country would force him to play 12 months a year. It was only a matter of time before he broke down.
IF HEALTHY, Arvynas Sabonis would have been a top 6-7 center of all time in the NBA. But he wasnt. Get it yet?

Unruly Fan
08-12-2009, 03:37 PM
Roy owns D-Will's assssssssss :DNegative.

I chose Yao. But DWill is still ahead of Roy. One of the best PGs in the League.

slaker619
08-12-2009, 03:41 PM
Roy

daleja424
08-12-2009, 03:45 PM
IM going roy, durant, then deron, then other, then bosh, then about 32,000 other people that might actually play basketball next year, then yao

Chronz
08-12-2009, 04:47 PM
I seriously don't get the when healthy Yao crap. People, he is gone for the entire next season. He crapped out yet again in the playoffs this year. I will concede, WHEN HEALTHY, yes, he is maybe the top C, and a top 10 player. But he isn't. ANd he won't be. The days of healthy Yao Ming are gone. He needs to be recognized for what he is now, not being rated on his past. I can not be convinced otherwise, and the if healthy stuff has to stop with this guy. Houston, and everyone knew what they were getting when they drafted him. A 320 lb guy, whose country would force him to play 12 months a year. It was only a matter of time before he broke down.
IF HEALTHY, Arvynas Sabonis would have been a top 6-7 center of all time in the NBA. But he wasnt. Get it yet?

It wasnt health that prevented Sabonis from realizing his potential, atleast not in his prime.

But the thing is, how far do you let Yao drop? Hes obviously better than most of these guys, how much do you punish him? Its the only reason I didnt vote for him.

B.JenningsMVP
08-12-2009, 04:48 PM
Durant will be a top 10 player in 2-3 years imo

still1ballin
08-12-2009, 04:52 PM
Give me Dwill any day

Raps18-19 Champ
08-12-2009, 04:55 PM
I think you should continue until the 20. It is better that way because the top 10 is practically predictable and the 11-20 would be a little more interesting.

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 05:08 PM
It wasnt health that prevented Sabonis from realizing his potential, atleast not in his prime.

But the thing is, how far do you let Yao drop? Hes obviously better than most of these guys, how much do you punish him? Its the only reason I didnt vote for him.

well, Sabonis didn't come until he was much older. I guess my point is, he is another what if.
I just can't let a guy slide for being hurt. Sorry. You either are, or you are not. And Ming can't play, which means every single player in the NBA that suits up is better, right now, today.
IF he ever gets healthy again, then he can enter a discussion, based on his play. But we all know he won't play a minute next season. He needs to be cast aside as far as player ranking go, until he is back

Chronz
08-12-2009, 05:19 PM
I suppose I can agree with that, it just feels wrong to put Deron or Roy ahead of Yao, but then again so does not seeing Pau ahead of Deron, or Melo being on there already so its nothing new.

What I was trying to get at with Sabonis was that political obstacles prevented him from proving himself in the NBA during his prime. Yea by the time he showed up, injuries robbed him somewhat, but he was still very impressive.

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 05:50 PM
I suppose I can agree with that, it just feels wrong to put Deron or Roy ahead of Yao, but then again so does not seeing Pau ahead of Deron, or Melo being on there already so its nothing new.

What I was trying to get at with Sabonis was that political obstacles prevented him from proving himself in the NBA during his prime. Yea by the time he showed up, injuries robbed him somewhat, but he was still very impressive.

I just look at it as this- Yao can't play. So he is irrelavant. Totally and completely. Mark Madsen is better for the upcoming season.
And yeah, Sabonis still had a good short lived career. Arguably the best passing big along with Bill Walton.

Hawkeye15
08-12-2009, 05:52 PM
and Pau is not a top 10 player. Never has been, can't see how he gets in now. 19/9 when you are #1 option, and then riding Kobe and the best roster in the NBA don't make him a top 10 player. Its funny. Either you get criticized for saying a player like Pau isn't great, because he has help, and then you get criticized for pointing out that even as the man, he didn't have great numbers. EIther way, Pau is nothing more than a 2nd tier PF. I would take a couple or three PFs ahead of him anyday of the week

Bruno
08-12-2009, 08:37 PM
Roy.

TO Rapz
08-12-2009, 09:02 PM
its Deron Williams..i went with the homer pick of CB4:)

BoltLakerPadre
08-12-2009, 09:15 PM
Yao-easily when healthy.

I'd go Roy, then Durant, then Williams then Bosh after that.

10. Williams
11. Bosh
12. Yao
13. Roy
14. Durant

As of now, I think Durant's going to be the best of these 5, by far.

balla4life22
08-12-2009, 09:21 PM
paul pierceee

prs
08-12-2009, 09:50 PM
durant is the best of the non injured players in the poll, ppl wont vote for him because his team is garbage so he must not be as good as omg!! ppl that made the 1st round man!

anyways I voted for Dwill since the poll is close and hes definitely better than Roy. Roy is barely better than Joe Johnson, stop overrating him imo.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-12-2009, 10:28 PM
Lol who thought Gasol is better than Carmelo or Williams?

jimbobjarree
08-12-2009, 10:36 PM
derons pretty close in production to CP3, even with his stats being heavily skewed by his injury last year, he shouldnt slide any further away from Paul.

Jumba
08-12-2009, 10:41 PM
Deron, not homering, but Deron's ability to carry a team as its "Star" is much much higher than Roy's. His skill sets are much better than roy. Just my opinion of course.

tland22
08-13-2009, 01:56 AM
IM going roy, durant, then deron, then other, then bosh, then about 32,000 other people that might actually play basketball next year, then yao

Wake up.


Dude, this isnt a poll that says: "vote on who the top 10 players are going to be in the NBA next season." It shouldnt matter if they are gunna play next year. So people need to quit using that as a way to judge YAO. YAO is a motherFUHKING top 10 player in the NBA. I voted D will in spite because I knew YAO wouldnt win. People fear YAO, and not so much Roy or D Will...

Vinny642
08-13-2009, 02:06 AM
Deron Williams

Lakersfan2483
08-13-2009, 02:56 AM
Deron Williams

lakerboy
08-13-2009, 03:17 AM
I'm going with Yao Ming. If playing, he owns Deron or any player on those lists.

But since he isn't playing next year, I think he doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 NBA player list.

I'm voting for Deron

cmellofan15
08-13-2009, 03:24 AM
Roy I think Chauncey should've been in this poll if Yao was considered

Mile High Champ
08-13-2009, 10:45 AM
I seriously don't get the when healthy Yao crap. People, he is gone for the entire next season. He crapped out yet again in the playoffs this year. I will concede, WHEN HEALTHY, yes, he is maybe the top C, and a top 10 player. But he isn't. ANd he won't be. The days of healthy Yao Ming are gone. He needs to be recognized for what he is now, not being rated on his past. I can not be convinced otherwise, and the if healthy stuff has to stop with this guy. Houston, and everyone knew what they were getting when they drafted him. A 320 lb guy, whose country would force him to play 12 months a year. It was only a matter of time before he broke down.
IF HEALTHY, Arvynas Sabonis would have been a top 6-7 center of all time in the NBA. But he wasnt. Get it yet?

Umm Yao is having the same surgery that Big Z had on his foot. The procedure should correct and help graft new bone for Yao to avoid future injury. It has certainly help Big Z recover very nicely. Yao will be back and never miss a beat.

UofA
08-13-2009, 10:51 AM
Roy just barely over DWill

phillychi009
08-13-2009, 11:03 AM
Deron has got nothin on Roy

How about USA gold!!!!!

masalex1205
08-13-2009, 11:25 AM
A lot of yall are making absolutist statements but I think it really is almost too close to call. I went w/ Williams but I could see the argument for Roy.

Yao is hurt, what if McGrady or Arenas were healthy? THere not so it doesn't matter. Bosh is at the bottom of this list IMO.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2009, 11:28 AM
Umm Yao is having the same surgery that Big Z had on his foot. The procedure should correct and help graft new bone for Yao to avoid future injury. It has certainly help Big Z recover very nicely. Yao will be back and never miss a beat.

until proven otherwise, sorry, I will not believe it. When you play 12 months a year, forever, on 325 lbs, those feet are problematic.
UNtil he proves he is back, he is not on my book for best anything.

tland22
08-13-2009, 11:29 AM
Yea if McGradys healthy he'd be in the top 10...certainly more so than arenas

S-Dot
08-13-2009, 11:38 AM
Deron Williams

DCSportsIsPain
08-13-2009, 12:03 PM
Yea if McGradys healthy he'd be in the top 10...certainly more so than arenas

McGrady last averaged 28 Points Per Game back in 02-03-04.
Both have the same career average of 22 points per game.
McGrady is 6'9" and averages 6 RPG and 4 APG.
Arenas is 6'3" and averages 5 RPG and 4 APG.

How could anyone possibly argue a healthy McGrady is a better player than a healthy Arenas? If people did any research, they couldn't.

tland22
08-13-2009, 12:41 PM
^^^^ thats a joke right? Nobody in their right mind, who isnt a Wiz fan wouldnt take TMAC over Arenas. Lets take their prime's....OMG TMAC is so much better than Arenas its not even funny.

you are severely understating things. In 06-2007 TMAC av 24.5 ppg 6.5 rebs 5.4 assist
year before, the same, year before that 25.7ppg 6.2 rebs 5.7 assist per game. That wasnt that long ago, at all.

and you PPG theory is WAY WAY WAY misguided. heres why:

Arenas became a starter of all 82 games in his second year. Avging 18ppg which is great. TMAC didnt become a starter until his 4th year in the NBA! So he was averaging 7ppg and 9 ppg and 15 ppg etc on the bench. Which DRASTICALLY lowers his career PPG.
And TMAC has done it for 4 more technical years than Arenas...No way Arenas continues to avg 22ppg over the next 4 years. AND one more thing, TMAC actually has done it 5 and a half more years bcuz Arenas played 15 games the past two years and tmac only played half the season last year...so thats how that math works out.

MPScribbles
08-13-2009, 01:46 PM
^^^^ thats a joke right? Nobody in their right mind, who isnt a Wiz fan wouldnt take TMAC over Arenas. Lets take their prime's....OMG TMAC is so much better than Arenas its not even funny.

you are severely understating things. In 06-2007 TMAC av 24.5 ppg 6.5 rebs 5.4 assist
year before, the same, year before that 25.7ppg 6.2 rebs 5.7 assist per game. That wasnt that long ago, at all.

and you PPG theory is WAY WAY WAY misguided. heres why:

Arenas became a starter of all 82 games in his second year. Avging 18ppg which is great. TMAC didnt become a starter until his 4th year in the NBA! So he was averaging 7ppg and 9 ppg and 15 ppg etc on the bench. Which DRASTICALLY lowers his career PPG.
And TMAC has done it for 4 more technical years than Arenas...No way Arenas continues to avg 22ppg over the next 4 years. AND one more thing, TMAC actually has done it 5 and a half more years bcuz Arenas played 15 games the past two years and tmac only played half the season last year...so thats how that math works out.

Have to agree. That was a pretty homeristic spin he tried to put on ppg numbers. Prime TMAC > Prime Arenas in every way.

DCSportsIsPain
08-13-2009, 02:14 PM
^^^^ thats a joke right? Nobody in their right mind, who isnt a Wiz fan wouldnt take TMAC over Arenas. Lets take their prime's....OMG TMAC is so much better than Arenas its not even funny.

you are severely understating things. In 06-2007 TMAC av 24.5 ppg 6.5 rebs 5.4 assist
year before, the same, year before that 25.7ppg 6.2 rebs 5.7 assist per game. That wasnt that long ago, at all.

and you PPG theory is WAY WAY WAY misguided. heres why:

Arenas became a starter of all 82 games in his second year. Avging 18ppg which is great. TMAC didnt become a starter until his 4th year in the NBA! So he was averaging 7ppg and 9 ppg and 15 ppg etc on the bench. Which DRASTICALLY lowers his career PPG.
And TMAC has done it for 4 more technical years than Arenas...No way Arenas continues to avg 22ppg over the next 4 years. AND one more thing, TMAC actually has done it 5 and a half more years bcuz Arenas played 15 games the past two years and tmac only played half the season last year...so thats how that math works out.

McGrady is 6'9" so his numbers should be better than Arenas numbers.
If Arenas were 6'9", what would his numbers be?
And you started this off by talking about a healthy McGrady so let's take injuries out of the equation.

McGrady averaged 15 PPG last season.
Arenas averaged 13 PPG last season.
Neither did what they are capable of.

I won't say Arenas is better than McGrady but I will say both players were potential MVP candidates so they aren't as far apart as the original post would have led people to believe.

If we take both players at their very best, McGrady edges Arenas.
But we are talking about the past, which is the past.
Let's see what they do this season.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2009, 02:22 PM
McGrady is 6'9" so his numbers should be better than Arenas numbers.
If Arenas were 6'9", what would his numbers be?
And you started this off by talking about a healthy McGrady so let's take injuries out of the equation.

McGrady averaged 15 PPG last season.
Arenas averaged 13 PPG last season.
Neither did what they are capable of.

I won't say Arenas is better than McGrady but I will say both players were potential MVP candidates so they aren't as far apart as the original post would have led people to believe.

If we take both players at their very best, McGrady edges Arenas.
But we are talking about the past, which is the past.
Let's see what they do this season.


If we are talking about the past, how can you say McGrady isn't better than Arenas? Arenas had 2 years of domination, and being a top 5-10 player in the NBA, McGrady was arguably a top 3 player for 5 seasons. McGrady was also a good defender in his young days. McGrady is a better player than Arenas was. Easily. Now, if Gil is healthy this season, he can add to his numbers, but something tells me he isn't going to return to 29/6.

Raph12
08-13-2009, 02:29 PM
D-Will IMO is just as good as Roy, if anything Roy should be 10 and D-Will 10A. D-Will always gets the better of CP3 and it's hard to say which player has a better supporting cast, CP3 probably has the better offensive team and D-Will the better defensive team. CP3's stats are better than D-Will's but if I had to have one on my team in a pickup game, I'd take D-WIll for sure, he could guard CP3 all day, all night.

Raph12
08-13-2009, 02:35 PM
If we are talking about the past, how can you say McGrady isn't better than Arenas? Arenas had 2 years of domination, and being a top 5-10 player in the NBA, McGrady was arguably a top 3 player for 5 seasons. McGrady was also a good defender in his young days. McGrady is a better player than Arenas was. Easily. Now, if Gil is healthy this season, he can add to his numbers, but something tells me he isn't going to return to 29/6.

Wrong he was arguably a top 3 player for two seasons, his seasons in Orlando where he won 2 scoring titles were his only Elite seasons, after he was traded to Houston he was a regular star, if he was really that good, he would have done more with Yao on his team. But still, T-Mac when healthy is head-over-heels better than Arenas, height may play a factor, but AI was still better than T-mac so find a better excuse ppl.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2009, 03:20 PM
Wrong he was arguably a top 3 player for two seasons, his seasons in Orlando where he won 2 scoring titles were his only Elite seasons, after he was traded to Houston he was a regular star, if he was really that good, he would have done more with Yao on his team. But still, T-Mac when healthy is head-over-heels better than Arenas, height may play a factor, but AI was still better than T-mac so find a better excuse ppl.

No, TMac was considered not only a more elite player when playing well, but for longer. Period. And I thought we were comparing him to Gilbert Arenas. Did I read that wrong? Allen Iverson, no, TMac is not as good.

Chronz
08-13-2009, 03:50 PM
McGrady last averaged 28 Points Per Game back in 02-03-04.
Both have the same career average of 22 points per game.
McGrady is 6'9" and averages 6 RPG and 4 APG.
Arenas is 6'3" and averages 5 RPG and 4 APG.

How could anyone possibly argue a healthy McGrady is a better player than a healthy Arenas? If people did any research, they couldn't.
A healthy Tmac now is nowhere near as good as he was in 02-03, a healthy Arenas is definitely better now, but a healthy Arenas was NEVER as good as PRIME Tmac. Research indeed.

Chronz
08-13-2009, 03:56 PM
Wrong he was arguably a top 3 player for two seasons, his seasons in Orlando where he won 2 scoring titles were his only Elite seasons, after he was traded to Houston he was a regular star, if he was really that good, he would have done more with Yao on his team. But still, T-Mac when healthy is head-over-heels better than Arenas, height may play a factor, but AI was still better than T-mac so find a better excuse ppl.

Actually your wrong, his second scoring title was his worst year as a star to that point. AI was never as good as prime Tmac, and Tmac's first year in Houston was when he was still in his Orlando form, he had the best playoffs of his career that year. He got the most out of that team, your not putting much context into the quality of help vs the opposition. Yao was developing and often rendered less effective than an aging Mutombo, the Mavs were stacked and the Rockets were missing their only semi legit PF. They had to start a guy most playoff teams would waive. The mere fact that they pushed the Mavs to the brink speaks volumes about Tmac ability to get the most out of his team. He was the only mismatch they had, while Yao was neutralized with the small ball. He couldnt guard anyone, much like in the Jazz series.

I suggest you forget about scoring titles and arbitrary accolades, and focus on analyzing the totality of their games.

Chronz
08-13-2009, 03:58 PM
No, TMac was considered not only a more elite player when playing well, but for longer. Period. And I thought we were comparing him to Gilbert Arenas. Did I read that wrong? Allen Iverson, no, TMac is not as good.
Please AI has done nothing but be a part of the best defensive team in his weak conference. And earn a wrongful MVP, just like that team won a wrongful 6MOY

DCSportsIsPain
08-13-2009, 03:59 PM
A healthy Tmac now is nowhere near as good as he was in 02-03, a healthy Arenas is definitely better now, but a healthy Arenas was NEVER as good as PRIME Tmac. Research indeed.

That was the initial confusion. I couldn't tell if the context of the original post was past or present. I incorrectly assumed it was present. Truthfully, I'm still confused as to how this thread got on this discussion topic. :)

MagicBucsSox
08-13-2009, 04:03 PM
roy over dwill are u serious?
and you kids need to stop with this durant nonsense

Vinny642
08-13-2009, 04:07 PM
Dam, I voted DWill since before Carmelo won and he still didnt win, Thats dissapointing

Hawkeye15
08-13-2009, 04:43 PM
Please AI has done nothing but be a part of the best defensive team in his weak conference. And earn a wrongful MVP, just like that team won a wrongful 6MOY

disagree on this. AI was an explosive scorer who commanded more attention than even TMac got. You can not penalize AI for having a good defensive team around him. They rode him as much as he did them. He is also more durable, and has a greater effect in the games he played in. He sat big guys with foul trouble. He got to the line at will. He was just as good of a shooter, depsite the misconception that he was a bad shooter. He was a better defender, even though overmatched many nights, he still lived in passing lanes. And he was more of a leader to his team imo.
I think when its all over Iverson is ahead of McGrady on the rankings.

Basketballguy87
08-13-2009, 05:22 PM
B.Roy

Chronz
08-13-2009, 06:20 PM
disagree on this. AI was an explosive scorer who commanded more attention than even TMac got.
Explosive scorer is just another word for inconsistent from my experience. He never commanded more attention than a prime Tmac, AI put constant pressure on the defense with his speed especially in the open court but Tmac was better in the halfcourt game because he gave the added benefit of being an off the ball threat, he was in the Kobe mold of warping the court even when he wasnt involved in the play.

You act as if Tmac wasnt a superior offensive player. We can go back and forth needlessly mentioning the strengths of their offensive games, or we can actually quantify these aspects.



You can not penalize AI for having a good defensive team around him. They rode him as much as he did them.

Its not penalizing him for having one, its penalizing Tmac for not being fortunate enough to be in a similar situation(In his PRIME). Both have proven to be able to carry a teams offensive efficiency to competent levels on their own behalf with minimal support. But thats only 1 aspect of the game, and throughout their careers Tmac has been the better defender, hes never been the liability AI was defensively. So by virtue of being an upgrade on both ends, give me one good reason why I should take AI ahead of Tmac.

There is no other way to quantify a players impact on his teams ultimate success without isolating and gauging his contributions. I understand this is abit new to you, but you really can dissect how much a player won throughout his career and why.

Its not some magical fairy tale where AI heroically carried a floundering franchise on his back to the Finals and miraculously won a game vs the incredible Lakers. Im exaggerating but youve heard these guys right? Both Tmac and AI were better players the years they won less.



He is also more durable,
Throughout his career yeah, I never argued he wasnt, though it you go by % of games played till the age of 28, its not much of a difference.

Also I argued that he was better in his youth, and in that youth he regularly played 75+ games.


and has a greater effect in the games he played in.
Not from what Ive seen, and from what all the traditional or apbr #'s say.


He sat big guys with foul trouble. He got to the line at will. He was just as good of a shooter, depsite the misconception that he was a bad shooter. He was a better defender, even though overmatched many nights, he still lived in passing lanes. And he was more of a leader to his team imo.
I dont fall for exaggerations, when the things you mention can be broken down so easily. If AI could get to the line at will, then explain to me why he would feel the need to hoist up 28+FG/A (Inefficient Attempts mind you) a game, and getting to the line comes at a price, forays to the rim increase the likelihood of a turnover so in some ways if (if your a good enough shooter), relying on the midrange game can be more efficient (And for Tmac his ability to limit turnovers is what made him special). If AI was as good of a shooter why was it Tmac that was annually at the top in PTS generated from long range 2/3's while maintaining a higher eFG%? He was never a better defender, lol really where did you get that from? Living in the passing lanes was what made him a horrible defender, he did that solely to fuel his offensive game and spark the Sixers attack, that was an offensive philosophy more than anything, and one that could only work if AI had the perfect defense behind him (Like with Mutombo or Camby behind him to block shots). With Tmac on the team, they would have never relied on such a gimmicky tactic, and couldve actually ran an offense and not put so much pressure on the rest of the teams defenders.


I think when its all over Iverson is ahead of McGrady on the rankings.
Definitely, his MVP pretty much seals the deal to the average fan. And AI has been an iconic figure of his time so he will sway the minds of even the smartest fans. And to the hardcore buffs, his longevity and overall accolades will make it a comparison that will probably end up in his favor, but there is no question that in his prime Tmac was a notch above him. Im not talking about overall careers.

But even if they are wrong and AI really didnt have the career, it wouldnt be the only wrongful selection. Pierce is another who was better than AI but probably wont be remembered in the same light.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2009, 06:37 PM
Explosive scorer is just another word for inconsistent from my experience. He never commanded more attention than a prime Tmac, AI put constant pressure on the defense with his speed especially in the open court but Tmac was better in the halfcourt game because he gave the added benefit of being an off the ball threat, he was in the Kobe mold of warping the court even when he wasnt involved in the play.

You act as if Tmac wasnt a superior offensive player. We can go back and forth needlessly mentioning the strengths of their offensive games, or we can actually quantify these aspects.



Its not penalizing him for having one, its penalizing Tmac for not being fortunate enough to be in a similar situation(In his PRIME). Both have proven to be able to carry a teams offensive efficiency to competent levels on their own behalf with minimal support. But thats only 1 aspect of the game, and throughout their careers Tmac has been the better defender, hes never been the liability AI was defensively. So by virtue of being an upgrade on both ends, give me one good reason why I should take AI ahead of Tmac.

There is no other way to quantify a players impact on his teams ultimate success without isolating and gauging his contributions. I understand this is abit new to you, but you really can dissect how much a player won throughout his career and why.

Its not some magical fairy tale where AI heroically carried a floundering franchise on his back to the Finals and miraculously won a game vs the incredible Lakers. Im exaggerating but youve heard these guys right? Both Tmac and AI were better players the years they won less.



Throughout his career yeah, I never argued he wasnt, though it you go by % of games played till the age of 28, its not much of a difference.

Also I argued that he was better in his youth, and in that youth he regularly played 75+ games.


Not from what Ive seen, and from what all the traditional or apbr #'s say.


I dont fall for exaggerations, when the things you mention can be broken down so easily. If AI could get to the line at will, then explain to me why he would feel the need to hoist up 28+FG/A (Inefficient Attempts mind you) a game, and getting to the line comes at a price, forays to the rim increase the likelihood of a turnover so in some ways if (if your a good enough shooter), relying on the midrange game can be more efficient (And for Tmac his ability to limit turnovers is what made him special). If AI was as good of a shooter why was it Tmac that was annually at the top in PTS generated from long range 2/3's while maintaining a higher eFG%? He was never a better defender, lol really where did you get that from? Living in the passing lanes was what made him a horrible defender, he did that solely to fuel his offensive game and spark the Sixers attack, that was an offensive philosophy more than anything, and one that could only work if AI had the perfect defense behind him (Like with Mutombo or Camby behind him to block shots). With Tmac on the team, they would have never relied on such a gimmicky tactic, and couldve actually ran an offense and not put so much pressure on the rest of the teams defenders.


Definitely, his MVP pretty much seals the deal to the average fan. And AI has been an iconic figure of his time so he will sway the minds of even the smartest fans. And to the hardcore buffs, his longevity and overall accolades will make it a comparison that will probably end up in his favor, but there is no question that in his prime Tmac was a notch above him. Im not talking about overall careers.

But even if they are wrong and AI really didnt have the career, it wouldnt be the only wrongful selection. Pierce is another who was better than AI but probably wont be remembered in the same light.

you are doing what you have criticized people for in the past, and that is throw stats alone, ala Hollinger. I understand statistics, and how to read them. I don't need a lecture in doing so. A career is defined from beginning to end. So I don't care if McGrady played the same % of games until age 28. Iverson also is one of the hardest playing players out there, which can not be justified in stats, you have to watch them.
Niether was a good shooter. TMac scored many of his points on 20 foot jumpers, but shot way too many 3's. AI percentages almost mirrored TMac, even though he took inefficient shots, which one needs to do when he is 6' when the clock is ticking.
He was able to get to the line when he needed a basket, and took the punishment better than anyone in the league. AI lived in the passing lanes, for 2 reasons. Fuel the fast break and his offense. He also knew that he was not able to match up size wise, and had a better chance at play disruption. McGrady was a decent defender with Toronto, and for a bit with the Magic, until he became option #1, and then became allergic to defense.
And you build your team around your star. SO I would agree the Sixers would have looked different had McGrady been on the team, and same goes for the Magic or Rockets.
I think McGrady was a top 3 player for a couple of seasons, but AI, individually, was a top 5 player for what, 8 years probably?
I take AI, you can have McGrady. Fair enough?

Raps18-19 Champ
08-13-2009, 06:40 PM
I can't believe how much hype Durant is getting. He is so over rated. He hasn't even legitimately acheived anything other than Rookie awards.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-13-2009, 06:40 PM
I swear on every thread, Hawkeye and Chronz always get into some debate that takes over half the entire thread.

dre1990
08-13-2009, 06:55 PM
Chauncey Billups

Hawkeye15
08-13-2009, 07:07 PM
I swear on every thread, Hawkeye and Chronz always get into some debate that takes over half the entire thread.

HEY! haha

dsickich123
08-13-2009, 07:50 PM
Durant should have more votes than Bosh

Chronz
08-13-2009, 09:13 PM
you are doing what you have criticized people for in the past, and that is throw stats alone, ala Hollinger. I understand statistics, and how to read them. I don't need a lecture in doing so. A career is defined from beginning to end. So I don't care if McGrady played the same % of games until age 28. Iverson also is one of the hardest playing players out there, which can not be justified in stats, you have to watch them.
Niether was a good shooter. TMac scored many of his points on 20 foot jumpers, but shot way too many 3's. AI percentages almost mirrored TMac, even though he took inefficient shots, which one needs to do when he is 6' when the clock is ticking.
He was able to get to the line when he needed a basket, and took the punishment better than anyone in the league. AI lived in the passing lanes, for 2 reasons. Fuel the fast break and his offense. He also knew that he was not able to match up size wise, and had a better chance at play disruption.
Im not throwing stats alone, Im using the stats that debunk your theories. Shooting efficiency can be measured, its effect you have on your team can be measured. I criticize people who mindlessly post winshares and per's with no accountability to what they are trying to portray. I welcome you to find one my statistical claims to be misleading in any way.

And your still arguing about things Ive already told you hold no relevance to my argument (It matters because in an argument about a players prime, his durability in his prime is all that matters) Either drop it or lets actually analyze it. Ive already told you their careers are harder to compare but Id still take Tmac. And if by almost mirrored you mean not even close, then yea I agree. You make it sound as if him having to rely on such inefficient attempts is a strength of his game.

If he was able to get to the line whenever he needed a bucket then please tell me when did Iverson stop wanting buckets? Stop feeding me your cliches bro, he was an inefficient chucker that couldnt play defense.

Id rather have a player who made it look easy, than the guy who had to work hard to get lesser results. And you really have no idea if your saying Tmac wasnt a good shooter. He wasnt a great 3pt shooter, but he was a deadly midrange shooter.


McGrady was a decent defender with Toronto, and for a bit with the Magic, until he became option #1, and then became allergic to defense.
He was always the #1 option in Orlando so what do you mean for abit? And no your wrong, I challenge you to prove this in any way. If you ask me to disprove it Ill go right ahead, just know that saying he became "allergic" to defense is easily refutable.


And you build your team around your star. SO I would agree the Sixers would have looked different had McGrady been on the team, and same goes for the Magic or Rockets.
I never said they would look different, but lets explore that possibility. No changes made, the Sixers would automatically be a better rebounding/defensive team, and there is no way Tmacs addition doesnt make that team better offensively, thus they improve. Put AI on the Magic and where do the Magic find the PG who can play alongside AI? When AI joins a team, you have to accommodate him, with Tmac you just plug him in. Thats another aspect in Tmac's favor.


I think McGrady was a top 3 player for a couple of seasons, but AI, individually, was a top 5 player for what, 8 years probably?
I take AI, you can have McGrady. Fair enough?

I never had a problem with that stance, least not today. I was simply talking about their prime before injuries robbed Tmac of it. Seriously why did you make me go through all of that, if you never disagreed with me in the first place. ARG

Chronz
08-13-2009, 09:16 PM
I can't believe how much hype Durant is getting. He is so over rated. He hasn't even legitimately acheived anything other than Rookie awards.
Name a 20 year old who proved as much as Durant had in that time frame and you'll understand the hype.

Chronz
08-13-2009, 09:17 PM
I swear on every thread, Hawkeye and Chronz always get into some debate that takes over half the entire thread.
Its better than arguing against your vague remarks.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2009, 09:27 PM
Im not throwing stats alone, Im using the stats that debunk your theories. Shooting efficiency can be measured, its effect you have on your team can be measured. I criticize people who mindlessly post winshares and per's with no accountability to what they are trying to portray. I welcome you to find one my statistical claims to be misleading in any way.

And your still arguing about things Ive already told you hold no relevance to my argument (It matters because in an argument about a players prime, his durability in his prime is all that matters) Either drop it or lets actually analyze it. Ive already told you their careers are harder to compare but Id still take Tmac. And if by almost mirrored you mean not even close, then yea I agree. You make it sound as if him having to rely on such inefficient attempts is a strength of his game.

If he was able to get to the line whenever he needed a bucket then please tell me when did Iverson stop wanting buckets? Stop feeding me your cliches bro, he was an inefficient chucker that couldnt play defense.

Id rather have a player who made it look easy, than the guy who had to work hard to get lesser results. And you really have no idea if your saying Tmac wasnt a good shooter. He wasnt a great 3pt shooter, but he was a deadly midrange shooter.


He was always the #1 option in Orlando so what do you mean for abit? And no your wrong, I challenge you to prove this in any way. If you ask me to disprove it Ill go right ahead, just know that saying he became "allergic" to defense is easily refutable.


I never said they would look different, but lets explore that possibility. No changes made, the Sixers would automatically be a better rebounding/defensive team, and there is no way Tmacs addition doesnt make that team better offensively, thus they improve. Put AI on the Magic and where do the Magic find the PG who can play alongside AI? When AI joins a team, you have to accommodate him, with Tmac you just plug him in. Thats another aspect in Tmac's favor.


I never had a problem with that stance, least not today. I was simply talking about their prime before injuries robbed Tmac of it. Seriously why did you make me go through all of that, if you never disagreed with me in the first place. ARG

well Bernard King in his prime was better than almost anyone listed above him, but injuries robbed him. That is life. Grant Hill may have very well been a top 10 player ever. But he isn't.
McGrady in his prime was an offensive force. He was also a black hole, who relied on isolations up top with total freedom. So did Iverson.
I understand you are using statistics to refute what I am saying. Stats help an argument, but they don't tell everything. For the physical gifts McGrady had, after Toronto, he was a terrible defender. Please.
There would be changes if they switched teams, don't live in a what if scenario, because those are never correct.
Give me Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Kenny Thomas, Keith Van Horn, Brian Skinner, I am shooting 30 times a game too if I need to.
I am not questioning your statistical analysis. But basketball is played on the floor, not in a boxscore. The numbers tell only what needs to be reashured. They can be used WITH an argument, not BE the argument. I have watched basketball for 25 years. I understand it. You can throw numbers at me all you want, if it makes you feel more accomplished. These are both players I care nothing about, and don't feel like getting into a war over.
Allen Iverson will go down as the better player. Period. It really is that easy. Stop looking at it like a math equation. McGrady was better for a small window, but isn't as tough, and wasn't as effective over the long term, and their careers aren't even over yet, and that is already solved.
Please don't take an attitude stance with me, I have said nothing negative towards you. I don't appreciate it. At all. You have a problem with me, PM me, and we can hash it out there.
Peace

Raps18-19 Champ
08-13-2009, 09:50 PM
Name a 20 year old who proved as much as Durant had in that time frame and you'll understand the hype.

No one but no chance in hell he is a top 10 player.

Don't get me wrong, he is a very talented player but what has he acheived like I asked in my original post?

I mean Bosh and Amare has just as good of stats as him overall and they have been on a winning teams before but they aren't considered to be better than Durant.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-13-2009, 09:51 PM
Its better than arguing against your vague remarks.

I don't argue with you because you always act like you are right. I might as well let you "win" against me so you can shut up after.

juggla53
08-13-2009, 10:07 PM
Yao-easily when healthy.

I'd go Roy, then Durant, then Williams then Bosh after that.


Yao and the word healthy should never be used in the same sentance, unless its "yao is never healthy"

Raps18-19 Champ
08-13-2009, 10:14 PM
Yao and the word healthy should never be used in the same sentance, unless its "yao is never healthy"

Yao is way healthier than T-mac.

Utahjazzfan18
08-13-2009, 11:14 PM
roy over dwill are u serious?
and you kids need to stop with this durant nonsense

This says it all.

Chronz
08-13-2009, 11:56 PM
I don't argue with you because you always act like you are right. I might as well let you "win" against me so you can shut up after.
Then why do you constantly argue with me? And you should know I never shut up.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2009, 12:02 AM
Then why do you constantly argue with me? And you should know I never shut up.

haha, you are awesome, yet annoying in the same breath. :)

bosh_dwill
08-14-2009, 12:42 AM
can some1 explain to me how roy is better then d-will?

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2009, 01:07 AM
Then why do you constantly argue with me? And you should know I never shut up.

You usually come at me first.

Beno7500
08-14-2009, 01:41 AM
Brandon

Raoul Duke_91
08-14-2009, 01:49 AM
I think its Durant, that dude is a stud

ink
08-14-2009, 03:02 AM
You usually come at me first.

"Ignore" works. ;)

Chronz
08-14-2009, 03:35 AM
Yao is way healthier than T-mac.
When?

Vinny642
08-14-2009, 03:47 AM
So Deron should've been in the top 10 somewhere

Chronz
08-14-2009, 04:12 AM
Ill just highlight your main points because I think we're both pretty much saying the same things but there are subtle differences I want to point out.


well Bernard King in his prime was better than almost anyone listed above him, but injuries robbed him. That is life. Grant Hill may have very well been a top 10 player ever. But he isn't.
Even if I agreed if I said that about King, why would you argue with me? He too was better than AI in his prime. In all honesty I dont believe it, injuries prevented him from reaching his potential but Bernard never sustained that level of play at such an early stage, for as long and as dominant as Tmac in his prime was.



McGrady in his prime was an offensive force. He was also a black hole, who relied on isolations up top with total freedom. So did Iverson.
You must not remember Tmac's role in Orlando. He operated primarily on the wings, equally adept at coming off of pindowns, flaring on screens, off the ball cuts, Tmac was very active when his body was willing. AI did alot of the same, but he was way more ball dominant. There is so much more to the game than your leading on.



I understand you are using statistics to refute what I am saying. Stats help an argument, but they don't tell everything.
I never said they tell everything, but usually when people say this, they add in the part the stats arent shedding light on.


For the physical gifts McGrady had, after Toronto, he was a terrible defender.
Thats a fair stance I suppose, though I dont know how you could call him terrible. The evidence doesnt really support these claims, Tmac did it all for his team defensively, especially in his youth. He even played some Center it got so bad. Guarded multiple positions on the regular. It led to him getting credit as one of the most versatile defenders in the league according to the owners and GM's. But if you say he was terrible with the knowledge that he shouldve been much greater, I cant say I can complain, you must have really held his talent in high regard, however this does nothing to refute the fact that he was a far superior defender than AI. AI doesnt get brownie points for being overmatched.



There would be changes if they switched teams, don't live in a what if scenario, because those are never correct.

I dont believe you...... lol no seriously, your basically saying you dont want to think about how the team would play if the switch would be made. And what are you basing this never correct assumption of yours?



I am not questioning your statistical analysis. But basketball is played on the floor, not in a boxscore. The numbers tell only what needs to be reashured. They can be used WITH an argument, not BE the argument. I have watched basketball for 25 years. I understand it. You can throw numbers at me all you want, if it makes you feel more accomplished. These are both players I care nothing about, and don't feel like getting into a war over.
Cmon man your better than this. You have no idea what Im talking about when I discuss stats. People who understand both the game and the #'s can dissect them both and find trends. Thats the whole idea behind APBR.


Allen Iverson will go down as the better player. Period. It really is that easy. Stop looking at it like a math equation.
Thats ridiculous, I refuse to be brainwashed with laughable proclamations when there is mountains of evidence against those ideas.


McGrady was better for a small window, but isn't as tough, and wasn't as effective over the long term, and their careers aren't even over yet, and that is already solved.
Why are you discussing this when I told you a few posts back it has NOTHING to do with my claims. The claims you saw fit to disagree with yet later confess to agree with.


Please don't take an attitude stance with me, I have said nothing negative towards you. I don't appreciate it. At all. You have a problem with me, PM me, and we can hash it out there.
Peace

What attitude? What did I say that made you think I had an attitude, if by attitude you mean questioning your claims then Im sorry I cant help you there. Just answer them if you can, if not move on. Just please stop bringing up irrelevant matters that have nothing to do with my original stance.

Chronz
08-14-2009, 04:13 AM
You usually come at me first.
I dont know why INK erased what I said but Ill change my words and see if it flies this time. You do too??? God that sounds gay but whatever, Ill PM you what I really said. It was so hilarious.....

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2009, 01:25 PM
I dont know why INK erased what I said but Ill change my words and see if it flies this time. You do too??? God that sounds gay but whatever, Ill PM you what I really said. It was so hilarious.....

Where's the PM.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2009, 01:26 PM
"Ignore" works. ;)

I don't have a problem with what he says. He says a lot of legit things. It's just sometimes, it gets sort of annoying letting him come at me almost every thread.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2009, 01:32 PM
When?

Since Yao has been in the league, he has played more games than T-mac in each season with the exception of 2.

02-03:Mcgrady-75 Yao-82
03-04:Mcgrady-67 Yao-82
04-05:Mcgrady-78 Yao-80
05-06:Mcgrady-47 Yao-57
06-07:Mcgrady-71 Yao-48
07-08:Mcgrady-62 Yao-55
08-09:Mcgrady-34 Yao-76

Chronz
08-14-2009, 04:06 PM
Since Yao has been in the league, he has played more games than T-mac in each season with the exception of 2.

02-03:Mcgrady-75 Yao-82
03-04:Mcgrady-67 Yao-82
04-05:Mcgrady-78 Yao-80
05-06:Mcgrady-47 Yao-57
06-07:Mcgrady-71 Yao-48
07-08:Mcgrady-62 Yao-55
08-09:Mcgrady-34 Yao-76

But Yao hasnt been in the league as long as Tmac and is already breaking down physically to the point of missing entire seasons. Both are injury prone so I dont see how you could say WAY healthier.

Hes also only missed the playoffs due to injury once, this year in his 11th season, well twice if you count the year both Tmac and Yao missed most of the year but that would count against both of them so it doesnt matter. Yao on the other hand has done eliminated himself from post season play in each of the past 2 seasons and when he came back during the 3rd he missed half the year while Tmac carried the teamto the playoffs.

Also its worth mentioning Tmac couldve played more in 04 but he didnt want to risk aggravating his back for a team that was done, though Yao has done the same himself so % of GP is probably undervaluing him some as well.

Still take the % of games missed due to injury throughout their careers and Im pretty sure Tmac has actually had the healthier career.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2009, 04:10 PM
But Yao hasnt been in the league as long as Tmac and is already breaking down physically to the point of missing entire seasons. Both are injury prone so I dont see how you could say WAY healthier.

Hes also only missed the playoffs due to injury once, this year in his 11th season, well twice if you count the year both Tmac and Yao missed most of the year but that would count against both of them so it doesnt matter. Yao on the other hand has done eliminated himself from post season play in each of the past 2 seasons and when he came back during the 3rd he missed half the year while Tmac carried the teamto the playoffs.

Also its worth mentioning Tmac couldve played more in 04 but he didnt want to risk aggravating his back for a team that was done, though Yao has done the same himself so % of GP is probably undervaluing him some as well.

Still take the % of games missed due to injury throughout their careers and Im pretty sure Tmac has actually had the healthier career.


You serious, I just said that to pick on INK but since you really wanna know Ill give it to ya. Let me know if it was out of line to you.



Well Yao played starting at 14 or 15 years old when he wasn't as strong(He was pretty much a twig)getting pushed around by grown men so he didn't have a day in the park either.

And Ya I want the PM. I really don't like it when the Mods delete a post because I wanna read it. But rules are rules.

Chronz
08-14-2009, 04:33 PM
I don't have a problem with what he says. He says a lot of legit things. It's just sometimes, it gets sort of annoying letting him come at me almost every thread.

He did it again but you read what I wrote right?If not its basically a thank you, and an ignore the examples set by those like him. But that constitutes as baiting on my end, but when he tells you to ignore me its all in good fun I bet.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2009, 04:50 PM
^Ya I read your other post