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StealingSigns
08-11-2009, 09:14 PM
Cito, please staple this mans ***** firmly to the bench, please!

Damn he kills us game in, game out.

His defence is horrible. And his bat is non-existent.

If we are going to have this guy hitting .176 (.235 slg) then we might as well put John MacDonald out there for defensive purposes.

Johnny Mac out at SS, Scutaro to third. Our defence improves drastically, and somehow MacDonald improves our offence (?????).

Thoughts?

Zaunnie
08-11-2009, 09:31 PM
yes.

King Carlos
08-11-2009, 09:32 PM
He is atrocious defensively, and while in past years he's shown he can be serviceable in offense, this year he's been pretty atrocious there as well, I want to replace him, but so far all signs point to him being our full time third baseman next year.

StealingSigns
08-11-2009, 09:36 PM
He is atrocious defensively, and while in past years he's shown he can be serviceable in offense, this year he's been pretty atrocious there as well, I want to replace him, but so far all signs point to him being our full time third baseman next year.

Those signs need to be burned to the ground, and the ashes pi##ed on.

Zaunnie
08-11-2009, 09:40 PM
Maybe we should get a guy like Scott Rolen. His defense would be much better than what Encarnacion brings, and apparently he's having a good offensive season.

StealingSigns
08-11-2009, 09:44 PM
^ Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the trade.

I like the pitching we got back.

However, Cito shouldn't feel obligated to play the guy whose contract we got back to balance out the deal. Sit him or release him. Add him to the tab, right there with our former closer. Paying this guy NOT to play helps us, trust me. We may grimace at it, but this potential move helps out our young pitchers in their development.

Bluerapoileagle
08-11-2009, 09:47 PM
Give him time, we gave Rios tons of time too didn't we?

bomber0104
08-11-2009, 09:49 PM
There is no wrong in leaving him there till the end of the year. We are stuck with him for another year so we might as well see what we have.

Its a completely different case with Millar

King Carlos
08-11-2009, 09:51 PM
Those signs need to be burned to the ground, and the ashes pi##ed on.

I could probably think of more vulgar things I would do to them, but I don't wanna get banned for posting them.


Maybe we should get a guy like Scott Rolen. His defense would be much better than what Encarnacion brings, and apparently he's having a good offensive season.

I see what you did there.


^ Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the trade.

I like the pitching we got back.

However, Cito shouldn't feel obligated to play the guy whose contract we got back to balance out the deal. Sit him or release him. Add him to the tab, right there with our former closer. Paying this guy NOT to play helps us, trust me. We may grimace at it, but this potential move helps out our young pitchers in their development.

I love the trade because Roenicke has potential to be a closer, and Stewart can be a stud and be a great addition to our already awesome surplus of pitching, but yeah, Encarnacion, and the fact he's getting any playing time is a very unfortunate result of the trade, at this point I actually would play McDonald at third, just because of the improved defense for our young pitchers, so far Encarnacion has put up McDonald-like offensice numbers as well, so we wont lose too much there.

Bluerapoileagle
08-11-2009, 10:05 PM
Cito, please staple this mans ***** firmly to the bench, please!

Damn he kills us game in, game out.

His defence is horrible. And his bat is non-existent.

If we are going to have this guy hitting .176 (.235 slg) then we might as well put John MacDonald out there for defensive purposes.

Johnny Mac out at SS, Scutaro to third. Our defence improves drastically, and somehow MacDonald improves our offence (?????).

Thoughts?

You were saying????

bomber0104
08-11-2009, 10:06 PM
There is the power... off Rivera none the less

marcre
08-11-2009, 10:09 PM
ha, he must have just read this thread and decided to take Mo deep. Jury's out on his hitting for me. I'll see what he does the rest of the year. Let him get acclimated to the new team/league.

StealingSigns
08-11-2009, 10:10 PM
Still not convinced. Good to see the heroics when the game is out of hand, and no one is on base....

bomber0104
08-11-2009, 10:14 PM
Still not convinced. Good to see the heroics when the game is out of hand, and no one is on base....

Alex Rios anyone?

marcre
08-11-2009, 10:14 PM
Still not convinced. Good to see the heroics when the game is out of hand, and no one is on base....

well, it wasn't out of hand and hitting it off of Rivera is pretty nice. But, I hear you.

King Carlos
08-11-2009, 10:16 PM
Still not convinced. Good to see the heroics when the game is out of hand, and no one is on base....

He can't control who was or wasn't on base, the guys in front of him are responsible for that.

StealingSigns
08-11-2009, 10:20 PM
Alright, home run off New York's closer taken into the equation, would you rather have this guy (who will rarely/occasionally provide a tater) or superior defence?

Rogi10
08-11-2009, 10:29 PM
you're basing him off what, less than 50 ab's?

geez, STFU and wait a damn year before you criticize a player that has just come FROM A DIFFERENT LEAGUE, from injury and is hitting against the A.L east.

Twitchy
08-11-2009, 10:33 PM
Alex Rios anyone?

I'm glad you pointed out that Rios isn't clutch.

Nobody on - 729 OPS
Someone on - 759 OPS
RISP - 792 OPS
RISP 2 out - 997 OPS

What an unclutch guy. Glad we got rid of that loser. He's so unclutch this year.

StealingSigns
08-11-2009, 10:44 PM
you're basing him off what, less than 50 ab's?

geez, STFU and wait a damn year before you criticize a player that has just come FROM A DIFFERENT LEAGUE, from injury and is hitting against the A.L east.

STFU? Nice.

Wait a year? Ha! His pre-injury past suggests he will never be a magician owith the glove.

Wow, he has to hit against the AL East? Just like every other player we have ever drafted or traded for?

He was a throw-in. Deal with it. All I'm saying is Cito shouldn't have to be burdened with penciling this guy in because of the contract. If you are expecting this guy to put up 25+ homers next year, I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

nstojic
08-11-2009, 10:52 PM
Alright, home run off New York's closer taken into the equation, would you rather have this guy (who will rarely/occasionally provide a tater) or superior defence?

if wells/overbay are doing what they're 'paid' to do, superior defence all the way...

Rogi10
08-11-2009, 10:53 PM
STFU? Nice.

Wait a year? Ha! His pre-injury past suggests he will never be a magician owith the glove.

Wow, he has to hit against the AL East? Just like every other player we have ever drafted or traded for?

He was a throw-in. Deal with it. All I'm saying is Cito shouldn't have to be burdened with penciling this guy in because of the contract. If you are expecting this guy to put up 25+ homers next year, I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

oh. but Rolen putting up 9 is better?? sure his defense is the best in the buisness, but isn't hitting our main problem?

and my point on his hitting is he has just transfered from a fastball heavy league to a breaking ball league, give him time to adjust before you start a witch hunt.

Also, yes STFU. You're insulting a player that has just arrived to a new team and you're saying release him? please, you sound like one of those fans who lives day by day, loving a player one day and hating him the next and one of those fans who thought the Blue Jays were going to win the world series after their hot start.

King Carlos
08-11-2009, 11:02 PM
if wells/overbay are doing what they're 'paid' to do, superior defence all the way...

Overbay is having a rea nice season, walks more than he strikes out, high .OPB, very respectable slugging and XBH numbers, and solid defense, he's worth what he's paid for this year, Wells on the other hand....


I'm glad you pointed out that Rios isn't clutch.

Nobody on - 729 OPS
Someone on - 759 OPS
RISP - 792 OPS
RISP 2 out - 997 OPS

What an unclutch guy. Glad we got rid of that loser. He's so unclutch this year.

I knew he was good with RISP, but didn't know he almost had a 1.000 OPS with RISP and 2 out, that's just ridiculous, perhaps if more men got on base in front of him, his numbers as a whole would've been better, lol.

bomber0104
08-11-2009, 11:03 PM
Alright, home run off New York's closer taken into the equation, would you rather have this guy (who will rarely/occasionally provide a tater) or superior defence?

First of all, 26 HRs is not rarely/Occasionally. And yes I would rather have this guy who is about 10 years younger, makes 6 millions less over a guy that has had a good half season with this team. Especially when i'm getting 2 young arms back

nstojic
08-11-2009, 11:05 PM
Overbay is having a rea nice season, walks more than he strikes out, high .OPB, very respectable slugging and XBH numbers, and solid defense, he's worth what he's paid for this year, Wells on the other hand....


i just wanted a few more hits, a few more 2B's...

bomber0104
08-11-2009, 11:06 PM
I'm glad you pointed out that Rios isn't clutch.

Nobody on - 729 OPS
Someone on - 759 OPS
RISP - 792 OPS
RISP 2 out - 997 OPS

What an unclutch guy. Glad we got rid of that loser. He's so unclutch this year.

well 8 of his 14 HRs are with the bases empty. I was aware of his numbers with 2 outs and RISP. I was referring to the HRs and it turns out they aren't that bad

Habs n Jays Fan
08-11-2009, 11:07 PM
I'm willing to give Encarnacion the benefit of the doubt, he had a broken wrist and came back then had to get a bone spur taken out of the same wrist before being traded here.

King Carlos
08-11-2009, 11:09 PM
First of all, 26 HRs is not rarely/Occasionally. And yes I would rather have this guy who is about 10 years younger, makes 6 millions less over a guy that has had a good half season with this team. Especially when i'm getting 2 young arms back

Rolen was solid all through his time here, and has beat Encarnacion is offensive production in that time too, and defensively? it's not even close, Encarnacion does have potential though, as his 2.1 last year shows, he's also only 26, and the two arms in the deal made the deal more than worth it, it's just his atrocious defensive abilities, and equally atrocious offense this year are making people reprehensive about him starting on a regular basis.

nstojic
08-11-2009, 11:09 PM
I'm willing to give Encarnacion the benefit of the doubt, he had a broken wrist and came back then had to get a bone spur taken out of the same wrist before being traded here.

hey, look at overbay... just slowly starting to come around after his wrist injury....

nstojic
08-11-2009, 11:10 PM
Rolen was solid all through his time here, and has beat Encarnacion is offensive production in that time too, and defensively? it's not even close, Encarnacion does have potential though, as his 2.1 last year shows, he's also only 26, and the two arms in the deal made the deal more than worth it, it's just his atrocious defensive abilities, and equally atrocious offense this year are making people reprehensive about him starting on a regular basis.

Stewart's having a great year...

Halladay
08-11-2009, 11:11 PM
Bit pre-mature...

nstojic
08-11-2009, 11:12 PM
Bit pre-mature...

that's what she said!:rimshot:

King Carlos
08-11-2009, 11:14 PM
i just wanted a few more hits, a few more 2B's...

If he was allowed to play full time this year and get the 550-600 at bats or so you get when you play full time, he could very well have 40+ doubles at the end of this year, and 20+ homeruns, by the looks of things he'll end up with 30-35 doubles and 15-20 homeruns, add on his triple and he'll end up with anywhere between 46 to 56 XBH this year in less than 450 at bats, that's more than respectable.

King Carlos
08-11-2009, 11:17 PM
Stewart's having a great year...

I know mane, after I found out Alonso wasn't in the deal knowing that HE was made me much less upset about it, Roencke ain't so bad either, and if Encarnacion hits like he did in '08 maybe I can forgive his horrible defense, just maybe...

StealingSigns
08-11-2009, 11:49 PM
oh. but Rolen putting up 9 is better?? sure his defense is the best in the buisness, but isn't hitting our main problem?

and my point on his hitting is he has just transfered from a fastball heavy league to a breaking ball league, give him time to adjust before you start a witch hunt.

Also, yes STFU. You're insulting a player that has just arrived to a new team and you're saying release him? please, you sound like one of those fans who lives day by day, loving a player one day and hating him the next and one of those fans who thought the Blue Jays were going to win the world series after their hot start.

How did you come to that conclusion from my post?

This guy is Tony Batista, reincarnate. At least Batista entertained us with that unorthodox batting routine.

nstojic
08-11-2009, 11:58 PM
^^i wish, Bautista was a faaaaaar more potent bat....

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3460

StealingSigns
08-12-2009, 12:05 AM
^^i wish, Bautista was a faaaaaar more potent bat....

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3460

I know he was, nstojic. And Batista was released, went to Baltimore, became a journeyman, and ultimately ended up in Japan.

StealingSigns
08-12-2009, 12:09 AM
Batista did have a nice year in Montreal.

nstojic
08-12-2009, 12:10 AM
^^ oh, i know where he ended up but you still can't knock the #'s he put up over the course of his career... and at that point(japan), he was so far down the road from us that there isn't any correlation between his decline and his jays tenure... frankly, while in a jays uniform, he performed... couldn't walk but was a decent enough slugger.. if encarnacion is the reincarnate of '99-'04 bautista, this will go down as one of the biggest robberies in mlb trade history...

StealingSigns
08-12-2009, 12:18 AM
^^ oh, i know where he ended up but you still can't knock the #'s he put up over the course of his career... and at that point(japan), he was so far down the road from us that there isn't any correlation between his decline and his jays tenure... frankly, while in a jays uniform, he performed... couldn't walk but was a decent enough slugger.. if encarnacion is the reincarnate of '99-'04 bautista, this will go down as one of the biggest robberies in mlb trade history...

It would be wonderful if Encarnacion could replicate Batista's numbers. And if that should occur, that would be a huge coup by JP. I don't see it happening.

I was trying to draw the comparison that Batista was putting up those numbers (which I think is Encarnacion's ceiling) and he still was released because of his defence. Yes, he had 3 more productive seasons offensively in the Majors, but he ended up in Japan for a reason (i.e. he had run out of teams).

King Carlos
08-12-2009, 12:38 AM
Batista did have a nice year in Montreal.

More like he had a mediocre year in Montreal.

StealingSigns
08-12-2009, 01:13 AM
More like he had a mediocre year in Montreal.

Maybe.

I would take 32 HR, 110 RBI, .727 OPS over what we have right now.

*sigh*

After that season, Batista only had 279 AB in the Majors....

bomber0104
08-12-2009, 01:26 AM
Rolen was solid all through his time here, and has beat Encarnacion is offensive production in that time too, and defensively? it's not even close, Encarnacion does have potential though, as his 2.1 last year shows, he's also only 26, and the two arms in the deal made the deal more than worth it, it's just his atrocious defensive abilities, and equally atrocious offense this year are making people reprehensive about him starting on a regular basis.

See I don't even know about that... He seems very smooth out there picking up ground balls. He robbed A-Rod tonight. His problem is throwing the ball and I believe that could be fixed. Butterfield is considered one of the best fielding instructors in the majors

StealingSigns
08-12-2009, 02:08 AM
See I don't even know about that... He seems very smooth out there picking up ground balls. He robbed A-Rod tonight. His problem is throwing the ball and I believe that could be fixed. Butterfield is considered one of the best fielding instructors in the majors

Just like they fixed Russ Adams?

I know Butterfield wasn't around for that fiasco, but really, this guy isn't the Jays future at third base.

sheps88
08-12-2009, 06:06 AM
Why do we care about the trade? Rolen wanted out and got his wish. Im excited for the new guys. Last time I checked we aren't coming back from 13.5 or 14 whatever we are. Let it ride out. Edwin still has plenty of time to catch Wells in the HR and RBI race.

HT9Canada
08-12-2009, 08:50 AM
See I don't even know about that... He seems very smooth out there picking up ground balls. He robbed A-Rod tonight. His problem is throwing the ball and I believe that could be fixed. Butterfield is considered one of the best fielding instructors in the majors

Totally agree, Edwin has a reputation to hit, and he will hit and get better with experience. His defense looks good already, amazing plays recently, if he can get better playign defense its here in Toronto, with the people around him. Keep him next year, see what he can do and make the next step from here. He is worth the money forsure.

Big Hurt
08-12-2009, 09:41 AM
As an earlier poster mentioned, give this guy a chance and let management evaluate what this guy can or can not do.
Maybe he is better suited as an emergency fill in at third, platoon first baseman, or just a DH.
He is adjusting to a new team in a new league.
Remember Edwin is still only 26 years old and has had a season with 26 HRs.
Sounds like a servicable major leaguer to me.

miller74
08-12-2009, 11:01 AM
John Macdonald is not an everyday player lets not go back to that again. Encarnacion makes some errors but he did hit 26hr last year, he has potential to be a powerful bat for us. if he cant get 3B down anytime soon, why not try him in LF?

ramz.n
08-12-2009, 11:30 AM
John Macdonald is not an everyday player lets not go back to that again. Encarnacion makes some errors but he did hit 26hr last year, he has potential to be a powerful bat for us. if he cant get 3B down anytime soon, why not try him in LF?

are you serious:speechless:..he can barely cover the base around 3rd base..how is he suppose to cover the entire lf.

King Carlos
08-12-2009, 11:46 AM
See I don't even know about that... He seems very smooth out there picking up ground balls. He robbed A-Rod tonight. His problem is throwing the ball and I believe that could be fixed. Butterfield is considered one of the best fielding instructors in the majors

Well, his UZR's of -9.4, -11.7, -9.8, and -6.0 should tell you different, who knows? maybe Butterfield will make magic happen and turn Encarnacion into a solid enough third baseman, and if he rebounds offensively he will become a steal, I just don't see it happening, at least on the defensive end.

miller74
08-12-2009, 11:47 AM
are you serious:speechless:..he can barely cover the base around 3rd base..how is he suppose to cover the entire lf.

So ur saying its more difficult to play LF then 3B?

jaysfan55
08-12-2009, 12:11 PM
Coming from the NL for one.. and coming into the AL EAST non the less he needs more at bats. The pitching is harder and more complex then what he is used to. He will get back to his normal form and hopefully put up his 2008 numbers. Butterfield will work on the d-fence... it will be good for us I think

bomber0104
08-12-2009, 12:44 PM
Just like they fixed Russ Adams?

I know Butterfield wasn't around for that fiasco, but really, this guy isn't the Jays future at third base.

its not like we have anything else at the moment

bomber0104
08-12-2009, 12:46 PM
Well, his UZR's of -9.4, -11.7, -9.8, and -6.0 should tell you different, who knows? maybe Butterfield will make magic happen and turn Encarnacion into a solid enough third baseman, and if he rebounds offensively he will become a steal, I just don't see it happening, at least on the defensive end.

I dont believe in defensive stats. I think its stupid to put numbers on things like range. From what I've seen, he seems to have no problem picking the ball

donatolla
08-15-2009, 10:48 PM
I dont believe in defensive stats. I think its stupid to put numbers on things like range. From what I've seen, he seems to have no problem picking the ball

So you've observed every inning he's played then?

Twitchy
08-15-2009, 10:52 PM
I dont believe in defensive stats. I think its stupid to put numbers on things like range. From what I've seen, he seems to have no problem picking the ball

He's admitted most of his errors and fielding mistakes comes from his throwing, not his range. From what I've seen so far it's hard to disagree. He's definetly not an above average defender though.

CaptainBolduke
08-15-2009, 11:59 PM
If he can hit 20plus jacks like he did last season he is worth the money he is getting paid.

ChongInc.
08-16-2009, 12:41 AM
maybe we should get a guy like scott rolen. His defense would be much better than what encarnacion brings, and apparently he's having a good offensive season.

lmfao!

bomber0104
08-16-2009, 01:18 AM
He's admitted most of his errors and fielding mistakes comes from his throwing, not his range. From what I've seen so far it's hard to disagree. He's definetly not an above average defender though.

Yeah obviously not... but i'm fine with average if we get the power

dtmagnet
08-16-2009, 01:18 PM
I agree, I would like to see Johnny Mac in the game more often.

JaysFan87
08-16-2009, 01:33 PM
See I don't even know about that... He seems very smooth out there picking up ground balls. He robbed A-Rod tonight. His problem is throwing the ball and I believe that could be fixed. Butterfield is considered one of the best fielding instructors in the majors

No but the thing is he has been this bad his whole career and every year his biggest problem is his range which is not a huge problem so long as u have excellent defense at SS. You can mask the range problem with above average defense from SS. Anything below u risk have gaping holes on the left side of teh infield.

JaysFan87
08-16-2009, 01:39 PM
I dont believe in defensive stats. I think its stupid to put numbers on things like range. From what I've seen, he seems to have no problem picking the ball

It makes sense when every play is evaluated everyday and recorded. Its not just some magic number someone puts in a graph. Defensive metrics have come a long way and are incredible telling if u see the numbers without bias.

1hardcore
08-16-2009, 07:50 PM
dont' worry folks ...
he wont' last long here ..
i can feel it

Halladay
08-16-2009, 09:26 PM
We need a permanent fill at third and Edwin likely isn't the answer and probably never really. I still think he has a place on this team, his bat will keep him in this league. That's his strength. Whether he's in the outfield, first base or at DH I don't really care, he's too young to give up on and he's had injuries. If you do move him from third the problem is, who is his replacement? We have no one in the minors and no real solution with the big club. Johnny Mac? Bautista? No way. These guys aren't everyday players. Here's the list of free agents at third-

Rich Aurilia (38)
Adrian Beltre (31)
Geoff Blum (37)
Aaron Boone (37)
Craig Counsell (39)
Joe Crede (32)
Pedro Feliz (35) - $5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Chone Figgins (32)
Nomar Garciaparra (36)
Troy Glaus (33)
Mike Lamb (34)
Melvin Mora (38) - $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Pablo Ozuna (35)
Robb Quinlan (33)
Juan Uribe (31)

Not really seeing any realistic options here...Glaus won't play on the turf, Figgins likely stays in Anaheim although I'd love to have him, Mora is a locker room cancer, Beltre likely gets another huge payday...Beltre is a great player but he's going to get a ton of money and who knows if Rogers is actually willing to spend like Beeston has stated. Seems like that's alot of BS to me. The only other option would be Miguel Tejada...

bomber0104
08-16-2009, 09:33 PM
We need a permanent fill at third and Edwin likely isn't the answer and probably never really. I still think he has a place on this team, his bat will keep him in this league. That's his strength. Whether he's in the outfield, first base or at DH I don't really care, he's too young to give up on and he's had injuries. If you do move him from third the problem is, who is his replacement? We have no one in the minors and no real solution with the big club. Johnny Mac? Bautista? No way. These guys aren't everyday players. Here's the list of free agents at third-

Rich Aurilia (38)
Adrian Beltre (31)
Geoff Blum (37)
Aaron Boone (37)
Craig Counsell (39)
Joe Crede (32)
Pedro Feliz (35) - $5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Chone Figgins (32)
Nomar Garciaparra (36)
Troy Glaus (33)
Mike Lamb (34)
Melvin Mora (38) - $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Pablo Ozuna (35)
Robb Quinlan (33)
Juan Uribe (31)

Not really seeing any realistic options here...Glaus won't play on the turf, Figgins likely stays in Anaheim although I'd love to have him, Mora is a locker room cancer, Beltre likely gets another huge payday...Beltre is a great player but he's going to get a ton of money and who knows if Rogers is actually willing to spend like Beeston has stated. Seems like that's alot of BS to me. The only other option would be Miguel Tejada...

Dude, there is no way anyone is giving Beltre another big contract... he won't even get 8 mills especially with a bruised testicle

StealingSigns
08-19-2009, 11:58 PM
Another stellar game by EE *sarcastic*.

wamco
08-22-2009, 08:09 AM
several years, Robbie Alomar, in his prime score below league average in the Range Factor statistic that some people love. That is all I need to see for that stat.

Twitchy
08-22-2009, 10:15 AM
I don't think anybody use range factor...

wamco
08-22-2009, 03:43 PM
if it helps their arguement, sure they do.

Twitchy
08-22-2009, 03:53 PM
Maybe I should rephrase that - I don't think anybody who knows a thing or two about defensive statistics would use range factor when they could use UZR or plus minus.