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View Full Version : Bargs/Biedrins...thoughts?



secterm
08-08-2009, 01:32 AM
I know right away some will say "shouldn't this be in the trade thread", but I'm more interested in peoples general thoughts rather than just throwing out the idea of an imaginary trade. If, each guy marginally improves his numbers next year, Bargs does 17pt/6.5rb and Biedrins does 13.5pt/12rb, wouldn't that be than perfect swap. I mean, don't get me wrong Bargs is a good guy and a decent player, but Biedrins would compliment our other starter perfectly. While I could see Nelli salivating over Bargs and his offensive game. Could really be "win-win".

dhalvarez
08-08-2009, 02:21 AM
I like Biedrins, but I see Bargs with more potential and think that Bargs will learn to be tougher under the basket and improve his rebounding by 5 to 6 rebounds more a night. Biedrins is good and I know that BC likes him, but he wouldn't give up Bargs.

secterm
08-08-2009, 02:39 AM
I like Biedrins, but I see Bargs with more potential and think that Bargs will learn to be tougher under the basket and improve his rebounding by 5 to 6 rebounds more a night. Biedrins is good and I know that BC likes him, but he wouldn't give up Bargs.

Do you really believe Bargs will be a 10.5-11.5 rebound per game type of player?:speechless::confused: I'll give you an opportunity to rethink that before I comment on that.

ChongInc.
08-08-2009, 04:20 AM
i would prefer bargnani and biedrins, than bosh and biedrins.

kantarok
08-08-2009, 06:26 AM
i would prefer bargnani and biedrins, than bosh and biedrins.

Why? Are you preferring one over the other from skill or do you just want an all European team?

If you want an all European team go to Europe because no one in the right mind would want Bargnani(nothing accomplished yet) over Bosh(perennial allstar). So explain, even though I know you will not be able to make a valid argument.

secterm
08-08-2009, 07:11 AM
Why? Are you preferring one over the other from skill or do you just want an all European team?

If you want an all European team go to Europe because no one in the right mind would want Bargnani(nothing accomplished yet) over Bosh(perennial allstar). So explain, even though I know you will not be able to make a valid argument.

I agree. However I believe what he may have been trying to say is that Bargs and Biedrins complement each other nicely and a Bosh for Biedrins+others trade may even be more optimal.

D-Train#35
08-08-2009, 08:18 AM
How is this a "win" situation for the Warriors? Biedrins is their best rebounder and inside defender, if they insert Bargnani into their starting rotation and let Biedrins leave then they will have absolutely no defense/rebounding from their starters unless Randolph can really improve on that facet in his game. And I mean REALLY imprve. There's no chance the Warriors do this.

Honest Truth
08-08-2009, 12:10 PM
I know right away some will say "shouldn't this be in the trade thread", but I'm more interested in peoples general thoughts rather than just throwing out the idea of an imaginary trade. If, each guy marginally improves his numbers next year, Bargs does 17pt/6.5rb and Biedrins does 13.5pt/12rb, wouldn't that be than perfect swap. I mean, don't get me wrong Bargs is a good guy and a decent player, but Biedrins would compliment our other starter perfectly. While I could see Nelli salivating over Bargs and his offensive game. Could really be "win-win".

I really don't think Biedrins will improve at all and while he is a good player, I rather take a chance on Bargnani's upside. Basically that is the difference for me.

THiiRTYONE
08-08-2009, 12:38 PM
i would prefer bargnani and biedrins, than bosh and biedrins.

not even yo.

THiiRTYONE
08-08-2009, 12:39 PM
i still perfer bargnani btw. :)

smith&wesson
08-08-2009, 01:16 PM
no way i trade bargs for biedrins.
bargs CAN learn to rebound, and over years develop in to a 10 rebound per game player. it took nowitski about 6-7 years in the league before he began to rebound properly, and brought his avg up to 10.

but biedrins will never be a 20 plus scorer. NEVER. and biedrins is way over paid. WAAAY over paid.

Bargs = more talented, way more potential.

dhalvarez
08-08-2009, 01:20 PM
Bargs has much more potential to reach, and Biedrins is what he is.

I do believe that Bargs will be mentally stronger and it will help him improve on his rebounding.

On the offensive side, the raptors will be playing more spaced out and that will make it easier on the offensive glass. Why?

Jay isn't going to park Bargs on the outside, and Bargs is working on that. BTW If Bosh can avg 10 boards, Bargs, who's stronger and bigger, can as well. It's just mental and he will get over it.

but we'll see...

SA5195
08-08-2009, 02:13 PM
No more white players please...lol jk, but I would still prefer Bargs...cause I like him more, but Biedrins has more speed than Bargs and can get to the basket more, but I still prefer Bargs.

The Wise 1
08-08-2009, 02:37 PM
The guy is overrated. He has no offensive game whatsoever and his defense is nothing to write home about. All he can do is rebound and run the floor. Even the one thing he does very well is overrated due to the fact hes the only one above 6'8 that plays consistently and due to the fact that all they do is run.

I wouldnt trade Bosh or Andrea for him or anyhting from our core for him.

ChongInc.
08-08-2009, 03:46 PM
i would prefer bargnani and biedrins, than bosh and biedrins.


Why? Are you preferring one over the other from skill or do you just want an all European team?

If you want an all European team go to Europe because no one in the right mind would want Bargnani(nothing accomplished yet) over Bosh(perennial allstar). So explain, even though I know you will not be able to make a valid argument.


I agree. However I believe what he may have been trying to say is that Bargs and Biedrins complement each other nicely and a Bosh for Biedrins+others trade may even be more optimal.


not even yo.

where do i start?!
bargnani will be by far the better player once he hits his potential.i feel like bosh has somewhat plateaued, and the only way he is going to have better numbers is if he takes more jump shots.
Bargnani can hit the 3 point shot. bosh on the other hand... only thinks he can. i cant even believe how many times the raptors started getting a swagger last year and started on a roll in a game, then bosh takes that momentum killing 3... and it just sucks the life out of the team and leaves me face palming.
bargnani can create his own shot! he now has a go to move with his pump fake at the 3, then he drops his shoulder and swings around the defender. bosh on the other hand... has an awkward little step back jumper.
which brings me to my next point! Bargnani goes hard to the basket. i dare you to count the number of dunks or even layups that both players had last year. even with bargs having spotty playing time in the beginning of the year, bosh doesnt even come close in this area.
Bargs is already a solid defender. we trust him on many nights to cover the opposing teams best player (Yao, Howard, Sheed) and he hold his ground quite nicely. bosh on the other hand gets raped in the face by every quality PF he faces. (garnett, nowitzki, Gasol, Antawn Jamison...) he gets blocks, but he gets pushed around like a *****.
Bargs is head over heels the better passer. how many times have you seen bosh make a no-look pass? or even get the ball and swing it to the open man? when the ball gets to bosh, the play stops. then he either goes to his step back j, or gets double teamed and doesnt have the strength to hold his own and turns it over.
Bargnani comes at a much lower price tag. 10 mil next year VS. 24 mil... do i even need to explain?
most of all, Bargnani WANTS TO BE HERE! i can definetly see him being a career raptor.

is that enough reasons for you? i didnt even touch on the fact that he fits into our european style game better.

and the fact that he is already supperior in all these areas... the sky is the limit for him. how much better is bosh going to get? and in what areas?

one last point. if you remember that nice win streak the raps went on around the end of last year. bosh only averaged about 16ppg and almost 13 rpg. wile bargs was averaging 23ppg and 7rpg.
so you dont think this team would be better off with a defensive minded, tough rebounding PF beside Bargs?
think again.

The Wise 1
08-08-2009, 04:31 PM
^


You have to be ****ing kidding me right?

FlakeyFool
08-08-2009, 04:41 PM
where do i start?!
bargnani will be by far the better player once he hits his potential.i feel like bosh has somewhat plateaued, and the only way he is going to have better numbers is if he takes more jump shots.
Bargnani can hit the 3 point shot. bosh on the other hand... only thinks he can. i cant even believe how many times the raptors started getting a swagger last year and started on a roll in a game, then bosh takes that momentum killing 3... and it just sucks the life out of the team and leaves me face palming.
bargnani can create his own shot! he now has a go to move with his pump fake at the 3, then he drops his shoulder and swings around the defender. bosh on the other hand... has an awkward little step back jumper.
which brings me to my next point! Bargnani goes hard to the basket. i dare you to count the number of dunks or even layups that both players had last year. even with bargs having spotty playing time in the beginning of the year, bosh doesnt even come close in this area.
Bargs is already a solid defender. we trust him on many nights to cover the opposing teams best player (Yao, Howard, Sheed) and he hold his ground quite nicely. bosh on the other hand gets raped in the face by every quality PF he faces. (garnett, nowitzki, Gasol, Antawn Jamison...) he gets blocks, but he gets pushed around like a *****.
Bargs is head over heels the better passer. how many times have you seen bosh make a no-look pass? or even get the ball and swing it to the open man? when the ball gets to bosh, the play stops. then he either goes to his step back j, or gets double teamed and doesnt have the strength to hold his own and turns it over.
Bargnani comes at a much lower price tag. 10 mil next year VS. 24 mil... do i even need to explain?
most of all, Bargnani WANTS TO BE HERE! i can definetly see him being a career raptor.

is that enough reasons for you? i didnt even touch on the fact that he fits into our european style game better.

and the fact that he is already supperior in all these areas... the sky is the limit for him. how much better is bosh going to get? and in what areas?

one last point. if you remember that nice win streak the raps went on around the end of last year. bosh only averaged about 16ppg and almost 13 rpg. wile bargs was averaging 23ppg and 7rpg.
so you dont think this team would be better off with a defensive minded, tough rebounding PF beside Bargs?
think again.

coming from the guy that wants to save rios...yikes

The Wise 1
08-08-2009, 04:45 PM
coming from the guy that wants to save rios...yikes

Theres so many things just flat out wrong theres no need to reply.

ChongInc.
08-08-2009, 06:26 PM
dont bother backing up your statements or anything...

ChongInc.
08-08-2009, 06:28 PM
the only thing i think you could argue is the defensive aspect of his game.
but you cant argue that he has shown incredible improvement in that area and is continuing to improve.

secterm
08-08-2009, 07:56 PM
the only thing i think you could argue is the defensive aspect of his game.
but you cant argue that he has shown incredible improvement in that area and is continuing to improve.

Biedrins is a top defensive player in the NBA. He is also quite competent on offense and while he doesn't excel offensively, the guy shoots one of the highest percentages in the league. He doesn't take bad shots and he still manages to score 12 pt a game. He actually scores the most efficient 12 pt a game possible.

Bargs is not a top offensive player in the league or even close. In fact, I wouldn't even consider Bargs totally competent defensively, he's not horrible, but barely competent.

I think it is more likely that Biedrins becomes a good offensive player than for Bargs to become a good defensive player. But even if they both improve the weaker parts of their games, Biedrins will more than likely be one of the top defensive players in the league over the next decade and Bargs is unlikely to be one of the top offensive player during the next decade.

Realistically, we have more scoring than we need and not enough defense and rebounding. An AB for AB swap would definitely bring that defensive/rebounding/toughness aspect to our team, and we would still have a ton of scoring.

Biedrins is available on the market cause Nelli loves offense and run and gun (though is doesn't ever win championships). Their is no better fit in the league for Biedrins than the Raps and he could be the chip that puts us over the top and into being a contender.

Bluemoon
08-08-2009, 08:37 PM
To give up on Bargs now would be the dumbest move we ever made (well....second dumbest).

Bryan knows that, that's why he signed him for 5 more years (at a bargain).

He's a 7 footer who can shoot, drive, and he is definitely getting better.

secterm
08-08-2009, 09:18 PM
To give up on Bargs now would be the dumbest move we ever made (well....second dumbest).

Bryan knows that, that's why he signed him for 5 more years (at a bargain).

He's a 7 footer who can shoot, drive, and he is definitely getting better.

5 yrs 50 mill a Bargain? The consensus among non-raptor prople is that the Raps overpaid but I guess your judgement couldn't possibly be clouded, right. If it was such a bargain than what would you figure he's worth? 15 mill? Maybe 20 mill? Perhaps his real worth is 25 mill a yr, right?

I honestly don't think he's worth more than 7 or 8 mill a yr and that's what we should have paid him. But then BC what have felt stupid, being that his precious 1st overall pick has turned out to be an 7 or 8mill/yr player, which is only marginally over the average league salary. Buy signing him for more, maybe BC can kid himself for a little longer.

And this isn't to say Bargs isn't a decent player...but he's far, far, far, far from great.

Bluemoon
08-08-2009, 09:53 PM
Have any non raptor people even seen Bargs play?

I like Biedrens but Bargnani's going to be an allstar one day. With the questions marks surrounding Bosh's intentions, we need to stick with him and see what he becomes.

harmen_raptors
08-08-2009, 10:16 PM
raptors dont need a scorer they need sum1 tht grabs boards and score in the line and bied does tht. also he never needs the ball(he wont ask for it)

B2B
08-08-2009, 10:33 PM
Moving Bosh insted of Bargnani would be a financial/Flexibility move.

Beidrins 10mil-----Bargnani 10mil
Bargs 10mil-------Bosh 20mil

The question to be answered. Is Bosh a max player?. Bosh as good as he is has his question marks.

- Not showing up in some big games
- He's a decent defender but gets out muscled by stronger PF's
- Hasn't shown he's capable of being a full time leader. (Has shown flashes)

If you answer that he's not a max player, he would be overpaid in a price range that would tie up our cap flexibility.

That said, only way I trade Bosh is if he doesn't want to be here or if it doesn't make sense to pay him the max.

swoop
08-08-2009, 11:04 PM
Biedrins is a top defensive player in the NBA. He is also quite competent on offense and while he doesn't excel offensively, the guy shoots one of the highest percentages in the league. He doesn't take bad shots and he still manages to score 12 pt a game. He actually scores the most efficient 12 pt a game possible.

Bargs is not a top offensive player in the league or even close. In fact, I wouldn't even consider Bargs totally competent defensively, he's not horrible, but barely competent.

I think it is more likely that Biedrins becomes a good offensive player than for Bargs to become a good defensive player. But even if they both improve the weaker parts of their games, Biedrins will more than likely be one of the top defensive players in the league over the next decade and Bargs is unlikely to be one of the top offensive player during the next decade.

Realistically, we have more scoring than we need and not enough defense and rebounding. An AB for AB swap would definitely bring that defensive/rebounding/toughness aspect to our team, and we would still have a ton of scoring.

Biedrins is available on the market cause Nelli loves offense and run and gun (though is doesn't ever win championships). Their is no better fit in the league for Biedrins than the Raps and he could be the chip that puts us over the top and into being a contender.

No. It is easier to improve your D. Biedrins is not one of the top defensive players in the league. Regardless of the style GS plays they are a TERRIBLE team defensively. You made a passionate plea for Pops based on the fact he is a good foul shooter. You argued that fact is a key in the chances of improving his shooting and general offence. Last year Biedrins shot a .551 Ft% !?!?!?.
Bosh is a far superior player. Bargs is obviously improving. Trading either for Biedrins, who is the only rebounder on his team which buoys his stats, would be a mistake. In fact THERE IS ZERO CHANCE THIS WOULD HAPPEN.

swoop
08-08-2009, 11:29 PM
5 yrs 50 mill a Bargain? The consensus among non-raptor prople is that the Raps overpaid but I guess your judgement couldn't possibly be clouded, right. If it was such a bargain than what would you figure he's worth? 15 mill? Maybe 20 mill? Perhaps his real worth is 25 mill a yr, right?

I honestly don't think he's worth more than 7 or 8 mill a yr and that's what we should have paid him. But then BC what have felt stupid, being that his precious 1st overall pick has turned out to be an 7 or 8mill/yr player, which is only marginally over the average league salary. Buy signing him for more, maybe BC can kid himself for a little longer.

And this isn't to say Bargs isn't a decent player...but he's far, far, far, far from great.

No, no ,no. Please take the time to find the salaries of 7 foot starters in the NBA. Is Bargs average salary overpaying him a bit for next season ? Perhaps. Do NBA teams overpay for centers ? Perhaps. How many C's are making more than Bargs but without the production ? What would Bargs get on the open market ? You think someone might pay him $10mil ? Duh. And his salary includes annual raises, the average is 10. Would Bargs take 5 years, $35 mil ? No. And in a couple of years he's be gone. Your expectations seem to be clouding your judgement, he is paid exactly what a starting C in the NBA expects.
On second thought maybe Pops should start at C, he is almost 7' right ?

secterm
08-09-2009, 12:29 AM
No. It is easier to improve your D. Biedrins is not one of the top defensive players in the league. Regardless of the style GS plays they are a TERRIBLE team defensively. You made a passionate plea for Pops based on the fact he is a good foul shooter. You argued that fact is a key in the chances of improving his shooting and general offence. Last year Biedrins shot a .551 Ft% !?!?!?.
Bosh is a far superior player. Bargs is obviously improving. Trading either for Biedrins, who is the only rebounder on his team which buoys his stats, would be a mistake. In fact THERE IS ZERO CHANCE THIS WOULD HAPPEN.

Oh right I forgot about the guy who only reads a couple line of a post and fills in his own blanks. Apparently I "made a passionate plea for Pops based on the fact he is a good foul shooter" when what I said was that Pops COULD POTENTIALLY be a better player than guys like Maxiell or Bass. Are Maxiell or Bass known as good offensive players, no. I said that Pops has the potential to be a DECENT offensive player and his ability to hit free throws reflects that some of that potential. But you're the type of idiot that takes that to mean that I think Pops is like some sort of all-star in my books. It's hilarious how guys like you can't read. In fact the whole "free throw" argument was based on that a guys ability to hit free throws shows SOME reflection of a guys mid-range game. I made a poll to see what people thought about the correlation between FT and mid-range game, and only like 5% of people thought there was absolutely no relationship. I'm guessing you represent the 5%.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391282

And BTW, if it's so easy to get rebounds on a team that doesn't rebound well...than why does Bargs average 5 rebounds a game on a ****** rebounding team?

But you must be right, Biedrins near 11.5 rebound per game is situational and as a Raptor he wouldn't be able to rebound as well and play good defense. Nice post "swoop", I'll leave you to spend an hour or two looking for quotes from posts I made or something like that, so you can make your "grandiose" rebuttal. Enjoy.

secterm
08-09-2009, 12:58 AM
Have any non raptor people even seen Bargs play?


You would think they would see him play against their team(s). I see Biedrins play when we play GS.

The Wise 1
08-09-2009, 02:52 AM
Holy crap, where do I start.


where do i start?!
bargnani will be by far the better player once he hits his potential.

Back this statement up please.


i feel like bosh has somewhat plateaued

Agreed.


and the only way he is going to have better numbers is if he takes more jump shots.

:laugh:


Bargnani can hit the 3 point shot. bosh on the other hand... only thinks he can. i cant even believe how many times the raptors started getting a swagger last year and started on a roll in a game, then bosh takes that momentum killing 3... and it just sucks the life out of the team and leaves me face palming.

He took 49 last year and made 12. Out of the remaining 37, how many sucked the life out of the team? Maybe 10 max. So your mad at that, thats fine. What about the 50+ games he kept us in last year? You dont like that? What about the 200+ blown defensive assignments Andrea had last year. You can live with that?


bargnani can create his own shot! he now has a go to move with his pump fake at the 3, then he drops his shoulder and swings around the defender.

This is laughable at best. Calling a pump fake after someone kicked it out to him for an open shot with a defender running at him and getting him to leave his feet so he can move in 5 feet for a jump shot is not a go to move. If thats his go to move then his go to move relies on someone else to get the defender running at him. Thats not very go to worthy. Andrea is nowhere near Bosh when it comes to creating there own shot.


bosh on the other hand... has an awkward little step back jumper.

Were the guy who said this last week? Again, this is not his go to move. WTF games are you watching? Seriously, we are in a weak era people.


which brings me to my next point! Bargnani goes hard to the basket.

This is the funniest post ever. This almost had me rolling on the floor. All I see him doing is going towards the basket and then when a defender comes out of nowhere, instead of going up strong, he tries a failed reverse layup.


i dare you to count the number of dunks or even layups that both players had last year. even with bargs having spotty playing time in the beginning of the year, bosh doesnt even come close in this area.

Wait, this is the funniest post ever. This keeps getting better and better. I will sig bet you till the allstar game that Bosh had more dunks and layups than Andrea. You cant possibly believe what you are typing. I know theres somewhere where we can find this out but I cant find it.

IF ANDREA HAD MORE DUNKS THAN BOSH LAST YEAR I WILL LEAVE


Bargs is already a solid defender.

False, he just looks good because Bosh is a terrible post defender while he is average at best. He still blows at help D where Bosh is better at.


we trust him on many nights to cover the opposing teams best player (Yao, Howard, Sheed) and he hold his ground quite nicely.

Again, you cant be serious.


bosh on the other hand gets raped in the face by every quality PF he faces. (garnett, nowitzki, Gasol, Antawn Jamison...) he gets blocks, but he gets pushed around like a *****.

false, he doesnt get raped in the face by them.


Bargs is head over heels the better passer. how many times have you seen bosh make a no-look pass?

Because no look passes are used to determine how good a passer is. This is starting to get comical. I think no one else has called you out on this because your post was so dam long.


or even get the ball and swing it to the open man?

He finds the open man. Plus, hes not supposed to swing it. 9 times out of ten hes the only inside player so the ball never gets to him when there swinging it around the perimeter.


then he either goes to his step back j, or gets double teamed and doesnt have the strength to hold his own and turns it over.

Serioulsy, WTF are you watching?


Bargnani comes at a much lower price tag. 10 mil next year VS. 24 mil... do i even need to explain?

False. Bosh's salary will not be at 24 million. It might be in his last year, so if your going to count his last year total, you should count Andrea's last year also. Which will be around 12 or 13 mill, maybe more.


most of all, Bargnani WANTS TO BE HERE! i can definetly see him being a career raptor.

And Bosh has said he doesnt want to be here?


and the fact that he is already supperior in all these areas... the sky is the limit for him.

WTF is he better at? passing and 3 point shooting? GTFO


one last point. if you remember that nice win streak the raps went on around the end of last year. bosh only averaged about 16ppg and almost 13 rpg. wile bargs was averaging 23ppg and 7rpg.
so you dont think this team would be better off with a defensive minded, tough rebounding PF beside Bargs?
think again.

You mean that run at the end when 3 quarters of the teams we played were in the lottery and didnt care?


Biedrins is a top defensive player in the NBA.

No hes not. hes a terrible defender.

ramansingh3
08-09-2009, 03:40 AM
I think Biedrins has hit the ceiling in his development and doesn't have much to his ability to improve on other than a more definitive offensive game which I really don't see happening. He is a 10/10 guy and more utilized for being set up or getting boards. Then there is Bargnani who I believe has the highest potential on the team, maybe other than Derozan. Bargnani is a future 20/10 guy who can create for himself and is a mismatch on the offensive side of the floor.

swoop
08-09-2009, 09:03 AM
Oh right I forgot about the guy who only reads a couple line of a post and fills in his own blanks. Apparently I "made a passionate plea for Pops based on the fact he is a good foul shooter" when what I said was that Pops COULD POTENTIALLY be a better player than guys like Maxiell or Bass. Are Maxiell or Bass known as good offensive players, no. I said that Pops has the potential to be a DECENT offensive player and his ability to hit free throws reflects that some of that potential. But you're the type of idiot that takes that to mean that I think Pops is like some sort of all-star in my books. It's hilarious how guys like you can't read. In fact the whole "free throw" argument was based on that a guys ability to hit free throws shows SOME reflection of a guys mid-range game. I made a poll to see what people thought about the correlation between FT and mid-range game, and only like 5% of people thought there was absolutely no relationship. I'm guessing you represent the 5%.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391282


And BTW, if it's so easy to get rebounds on a team that doesn't rebound well...than why does Bargs average 5 rebounds a game on a ****** rebounding team?

But you must be right, Biedrins near 11.5 rebound per game is situational and as a Raptor he wouldn't be able to rebound as well and play good defense. Nice post "swoop", I'll leave you to spend an hour or two looking for quotes from posts I made or something like that, so you can make your "grandiose" rebuttal. Enjoy.

You need to look up the word 'grandiose'. You don't know what it means.
You said FT shows potential for mid-range. But you haven't bothered to show how Biedrins will do his great improving. The FT/mid-range thing I remebered, didn't have to look it up. Funny then, funny now.
Back up your wild ideas with facts and reasoned argument not insults. That just shows you're out of fresh ideas.
Is Bosh a dominant rebounder ? I think most of us would agree that he isn't. But he did board 10 a game last year. How does HE do that ? (p.s. I never said it's easy on those teams, I said one player does it all - to say it's easy to get rebounds on a poor rebounding team in contradictory).
How is Biedrins a dominant defender ? Other than the rebounds, what evidence is there ? If he is so dominant, why has he never been on an NBA all-defensive team ?
Please remember this is not an attack on you personally. You post threads with opinions. They may be critisized. Especially if they're lacking the basic facts to back them up.

ramz.n
08-09-2009, 09:09 AM
Biedrins is a top defensive player in the NBA. He is also quite competent on offense and while he doesn't excel offensively, the guy shoots one of the highest percentages in the league. He doesn't take bad shots and he still manages to score 12 pt a game. He actually scores the most efficient 12 pt a game possible.

Bargs is not a top offensive player in the league or even close. In fact, I wouldn't even consider Bargs totally competent defensively, he's not horrible, but barely competent.

I think it is more likely that Biedrins becomes a good offensive player than for Bargs to become a good defensive player. But even if they both improve the weaker parts of their games, Biedrins will more than likely be one of the top defensive players in the league over the next decade and Bargs is unlikely to be one of the top offensive player during the next decade.

Realistically, we have more scoring than we need and not enough defense and rebounding. An AB for AB swap would definitely bring that defensive/rebounding/toughness aspect to our team, and we would still have a ton of scoring.

Biedrins is available on the market cause Nelli loves offense and run and gun (though is doesn't ever win championships). Their is no better fit in the league for Biedrins than the Raps and he could be the chip that puts us over the top and into being a contender.

top defender :confused:...thats why every season they are in the top 5 for giving up the most ppg...but hes a good rebounder..but you could also say that he was there only big man who was utilized at his own position.

B2B
08-09-2009, 10:22 AM
top defender :confused:...thats why every season they are in the top 5 for giving up the most ppg...but hes a good rebounder..but you could also say that he was there only big man who was utilized at his own position.

Have not seen enough of Beidrins to argue his defensive abilities but your argument is weak saying they're in top 5 for giving up most ppg. Without checking stats I would say reasons why as apposed to Beidrins not being good defensively.

- Nellie's fast pace small ball, playing SJax at PF
- GS r a high scoring team, increases other teams possessions

With Beidrins being The only Big it would be unfair to judge stats both ways because of GS style of play.

- defensive #'s r skewd
- Rebounding is inflated

swoop
08-09-2009, 10:36 AM
With Beidrins being The only Big it would be unfair to judge stats both ways because of GS style of play.

- defensive #'s r skewd
- Rebounding is inflated


Yes. And if the opinions of the 'non-Raptors world' are important for their opinion on Bargs, then their opinion on Biedrins is also valid. Allstar games ? All-defensive teams ?
Dominant player ?

B2B
08-09-2009, 10:52 AM
With Beidrins being The only Big it would be unfair to judge stats both ways because of GS style of play.

- defensive #'s r skewd
- Rebounding is inflated


Yes. And if the opinions of the 'non-Raptors world' are important for their opinion on Bargs, then their opinion on Biedrins is also valid. Allstar games ? All-defensive teams ?
Dominant player ?

An opinion can never be validated as fact.

Opinion's r personal views. Even so called experts that give their personal views, r wrong at times because opinions r an estimation not an exact account of the situation.

U need fact to back up an opinion to make it valid.

swoop
08-09-2009, 11:42 AM
An opinion can never be validated as fact.

Opinion's r personal views. Even so called experts that give their personal views, r wrong at times because opinions r an estimation not an exact account of the situation.

U need fact to back up an opinion to make it valid.



Exactly the point I was making about the original post.

WaterBoy24
08-09-2009, 11:50 AM
Delete it..........I'm not gonna comment..it would be a waste...:mad:

ramz.n
08-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Have not seen enough of Beidrins to argue his defensive abilities but your argument is weak saying they're in top 5 for giving up most ppg. Without checking stats I would say reasons why as apposed to Beidrins not being good defensively.

- Nellie's fast pace small ball, playing SJax at PF
- GS r a high scoring team, increases other teams possessions

With Beidrins being The only Big it would be unfair to judge stats both ways because of GS style of play.

- defensive #'s r skewd
- Rebounding is inflated

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=pts&league=nba&season=2009&seasontype=2&avg=pg&order=true&split=999

you wanted facts...they actually gave up the most ppg with 112, and i was saying his numbers are inflated because of the pace that they play as well as hes the only person playing his natural position..and you just used stephen jackson at pf as the example.

swoop
08-09-2009, 12:42 PM
/\ Imagine how bad they'd be without their dominant defensive C...

Parker
08-09-2009, 02:24 PM
IF ANDREA HAD MORE DUNKS THAN BOSH LAST YEAR I WILL LEAVE


Its okay... you can stay:

Dunks:

2007-08
Rank.....Player.................Dunks
22.........Chris Bosh..........92
49.........Andris Biedrins....60
89.........Andrea Bargnani..33


2008-09
Rank.....Player.................Dunks
29.........Chris Bosh..........80
41.........Andris Biedrins....66
73.........Andrea Bargnani..40

Bosh played 67 games in 07/08 and had 92 dunks... He played 77 games in 08/09 but only had 80 dunks. 12 less dunks in 10 more games... He really needs to stop shooting threes and just get to the basket.

Bargnani has played 78 games the past two seasons so it is a true increase of 7 dunks over the previous year. Shooting 41% from 3pt range is great, but I like to see him cut to the basket a lot more. He's quicker than most centers.

Biedrins played 76 games in 07/08 and only 62 games in 08/09, so he managed to get 6 more dunks in 14 less games over the previous year.

I don't know enough about him to say absolutely not, but my sense is that he isn't so much better or worse than Bargnani to make a huge difference at the moment. Whether either player continues to improve and by how much remains to be seen. Until Bosh signs a new deal I think you have to keep Bargnani, otherwise you could end up in 2010 without either.

Stats from:
www.rotoevil.com/nba/2008-2009-slam-dunk-stats (http://www.rotoevil.com/nba/2008-2009-slam-dunk-stats)

secterm
08-09-2009, 02:35 PM
To give up on Bargs now would be the dumbest move we ever made (well....second dumbest).

Bryan knows that, that's why he signed him for 5 more years (at a bargain).

He's a 7 footer who can shoot, drive, and he is definitely getting better.

Does anyone else here think Bargnani came at a bargain?

datpif
08-09-2009, 02:47 PM
That would be a good trade for the Raptors at the moment, but Barg's does have the upside and I would personally take offence over defence any day. If Barg's can improve his rebounding to 7-8 a game I'll be very satisfied. Plus if Bosh were to walk next season we would be screwed in the frontcourt.

rolo tomaci
08-09-2009, 02:56 PM
where do i start?!
bargnani will be by far the better player once he hits his potential.i feel like bosh has somewhat plateaued, and the only way he is going to have better numbers is if he takes more jump shots.
Bargnani can hit the 3 point shot. bosh on the other hand... only thinks he can. i cant even believe how many times the raptors started getting a swagger last year and started on a roll in a game, then bosh takes that momentum killing 3... and it just sucks the life out of the team and leaves me face palming.
bargnani can create his own shot! he now has a go to move with his pump fake at the 3, then he drops his shoulder and swings around the defender. bosh on the other hand... has an awkward little step back jumper.
which brings me to my next point! Bargnani goes hard to the basket. i dare you to count the number of dunks or even layups that both players had last year. even with bargs having spotty playing time in the beginning of the year, bosh doesnt even come close in this area.
Bargs is already a solid defender. we trust him on many nights to cover the opposing teams best player (Yao, Howard, Sheed) and he hold his ground quite nicely. bosh on the other hand gets raped in the face by every quality PF he faces. (garnett, nowitzki, Gasol, Antawn Jamison...) he gets blocks, but he gets pushed around like a *****.
Bargs is head over heels the better passer. how many times have you seen bosh make a no-look pass? or even get the ball and swing it to the open man? when the ball gets to bosh, the play stops. then he either goes to his step back j, or gets double teamed and doesnt have the strength to hold his own and turns it over.
Bargnani comes at a much lower price tag. 10 mil next year VS. 24 mil... do i even need to explain?
most of all, Bargnani WANTS TO BE HERE! i can definetly see him being a career raptor.

is that enough reasons for you? i didnt even touch on the fact that he fits into our european style game better.

and the fact that he is already supperior in all these areas... the sky is the limit for him. how much better is bosh going to get? and in what areas?

one last point. if you remember that nice win streak the raps went on around the end of last year. bosh only averaged about 16ppg and almost 13 rpg. wile bargs was averaging 23ppg and 7rpg.
so you dont think this team would be better off with a defensive minded, tough rebounding PF beside Bargs?
think again.

Agree. Bargnani has more up side. Bosh is good but will never win us anything. Bargnani will be the franchise guy soon and then Bosh will want to leave if he signs here at all which is unlikely. I still like Bosh but if we could trade him for Biedrins that would be beautiful. Biedrins addresses our needs with great rebounding and defense. GS won't do it though because Bosh won't sign there either.

rolo tomaci
08-09-2009, 02:58 PM
Does anyone else here think Bargnani came at a bargain?

Yes. In a couple years we would have had to give him 20 mil after he blows up. Nice work.

rolo tomaci
08-09-2009, 03:07 PM
This is laughable at best. Calling a pump fake after someone kicked it out to him for an open shot with a defender running at him and getting him to leave his feet so he can move in 5 feet for a jump shot is not a go to move. If thats his go to move then his go to move relies on someone else to get the defender running at him. Thats not very go to worthy. Andrea is nowhere near Bosh when it comes to creating there own shot.

False, he just looks good because Bosh is a terrible post defender while he is average at best. He still blows at help D where Bosh is better at.



No no no...

Bosh cannot create a shot. Taking a shot at the elbow is not creating a shot. Why do you think Bosh almost never gets the ball on the last possession of the game. The double comes so he can't drive and then he can't make a decent pass either.

It is Bosh who provides no help D. Bargnani gets all his blocks with his help D and modifies plenty of shots. He is a good help defender and Bosh is useless defensively in every way except for boards.

Bargnani really desperately needs to improve his rebounding. He need not avergae 10 boards 8 would be good enough.

secterm
08-09-2009, 03:09 PM
Yes. In a couple years we would have had to give him 20 mil after he blows up. Nice work.

so what will he blow up to in a couple of years? Mehmet Okur?

rolo tomaci
08-09-2009, 03:10 PM
I like Bosh. Bosh is a great player; 20 and 10 speaks for itself. However he cannot win you anything. He can stay in Toronto if he is willing to be number 2 to Bargs in the near future. I don't think Bosh would like that though.

rolo tomaci
08-09-2009, 03:11 PM
so what will he blow up to in a couple of years? Mehmet Okur?

Nowitski but probably better

secterm
08-09-2009, 03:15 PM
I like Bosh. Bosh is a great player; 20 and 10 speaks for itself. However he cannot win you anything. He can stay in Toronto if he is willing to be number 2 to Bargs in the near future. I don't think Bosh would like that though.

Holy **** this guys love Bargs alot. Do you actually think that he will be considered a better NBA player than Bosh in the near future? The guys best yr so far is 15 and 5, and that's out of 3 years. What kind of numbers do you EXPECT out if Bargs next yr and the year after.

secterm
08-09-2009, 03:20 PM
Nowitski but probably better

Bargnani plays more like Okur than Nowitski

ramz.n
08-09-2009, 03:28 PM
Bargnani plays more like Okur than Nowitski

how is that?..they might have similar stats right now..but bargnani is clearly a better defender and shot blocker..and he can actually run the floor unlike okur who is only a jump shooting bigman.

secterm
08-09-2009, 03:50 PM
how is that?..they might have similar stats right now..but bargnani is clearly a better defender and shot blocker..and he can actually run the floor unlike okur who is only a jump shooting bigman.

I bet you Utah fans would disagree with your assessment of Okur.

secterm
08-09-2009, 05:26 PM
Nowitski but probably better

A lot of people compare Nowitzki and Bargs but I don't see it based upon the numbers they put up. Nowitzki is a way better rebounder than Bargs. Barg's rebounding numbers aren't acceptable. And a lot of you talk about Bargs as if he has had the raw end of the stick and as if he just came off his first year in the NBA. The guy has played 3 full seasons in the NBA. A lot of people are willing to right off a guy after a season or two but everyone seems willing to give Bargs an endless development time. The way I see it, if Bargs doesn't average 6.5 rebounds a game this coming season, he will officially be a bust (and way overpaid). When you look at his numbers and compare them to Dirk's first few seasons, from an objective standpoint, you can see that the comparison to Dirk is not yet warranted whatsoever. This upcoming year will be the test. If Bargs doesn't average atleast 17pt and 6.5 rebounds there is no question he is a bust. In Dirk's 4th yr he averaged 23.4 pt and 9.9 rebounds. I hope Bargs turns it around but he has sooooooooo much to prove before Nowitzki type comparisons, never mind some idiots that talk confidently like Bargs will be probably be better than Nowitzki.

RaptorizedKevin
08-09-2009, 05:47 PM
no way i trade bargs for biedrins.
bargs CAN learn to rebound, and over years develop in to a 10 rebound per game player. it took nowitski about 6-7 years in the league before he began to rebound properly, and brought his avg up to 10.

but biedrins will never be a 20 plus scorer. NEVER. and biedrins is way over paid. WAAAY over paid.

Bargs = more talented, way more potential.


why cant he be a 20+ scorer? his stats over the years have increased and hes still young. .everyone thought bargnani would never be a 20+ point scored, but he has for many months this year. so dont presume peoples stats wouldnt letting time tell.

yungballah15
08-09-2009, 05:55 PM
yo this ***** is turning into a debate, with bosh and bargnani. i would want bargnani over biedrins simple, i think bargnani is a better player now, and has a chance to get better, but biedrins is good, but i think he gets a lil overatted because the teams hes on and he has to get the rebounds, but no doubt hes a good player. just ratter have bargnani.

dhalvarez
08-09-2009, 06:42 PM
How is this a "win" situation for the Warriors? Biedrins is their best rebounder and inside defender, if they insert Bargnani into their starting rotation and let Biedrins leave then they will have absolutely no defense/rebounding from their starters unless Randolph can really improve on that facet in his game. And I mean REALLY imprve. There's no chance the Warriors do this.

Not that the trade is worth it, but Bargs has a much higher skill level than Biedrins and in the long term can be a much better player. Bargs has the potential to be a better defender. He improved his shot blocking and along with his toughness, I believe his rebounding will improve as well. Offense is what the Warriors need and will be improving.

...although they did trade an offensive player (Belinilli) for well Devean George. (so who really know what the warriors are doin???)

secterm
08-09-2009, 08:01 PM
Not that the trade is worth it, but Bargs has a much higher skill level than Biedrins and in the long term can be a much better player. Bargs has the potential to be a better defender. He improved his shot blocking and along with his toughness, I believe his rebounding will improve as well. Offense is what the Warriors need and will be improving.

...although they did trade an offensive player (Belinilli) for well Devean George. (so who really know what the warriors are doin???)

Maybe Bargs is better in long term but Biedrins is definitely better NOW. It's the potential versus the sure thing. Remember when Brandon Roy was drafter and everybody said he was the most "NBA ready" right then and there. There is something to be said about "what have you done for me lately" and "what MIGHT you do for me in the future". Which isn't to say I'm not hoping Bargs turns it around.

And BTW, Biedrins has improved a way more rapid pace than Bargs.

swoop
08-09-2009, 10:19 PM
No no no...

Bosh cannot create a shot. Taking a shot at the elbow is not creating a shot. Why do you think Bosh almost never gets the ball on the last possession of the game. The double comes so he can't drive and then he can't make a decent pass either.

It is Bosh who provides no help D. Bargnani gets all his blocks with his help D and modifies plenty of shots. He is a good help defender and Bosh is useless defensively in every way except for boards.

Bargnani really desperately needs to improve his rebounding. He need not avergae 10 boards 8 would be good enough.


Teams in the NBA generally do not rely on their PF's or C's to create their own shots. They might take a pass where they can score but relying on a big man to create when the game is on the line isn't done for reasons that should be painfully obvious. It is up to the ballhandlers to create shots. Hedo is unique in this skill for a 6'10" player.

swoop
08-09-2009, 10:27 PM
And BTW, Biedrins has improved a way more rapid pace than Bargs


Yeah, that's a fact. He's a dominant defensive player. On the worst defensive team in the NBA.

swoop
08-09-2009, 10:57 PM
why cant he be a 20+ scorer? his stats over the years have increased and hes still young. .everyone thought bargnani would never be a 20+ point scored, but he has for many months this year. so dont presume peoples stats wouldnt letting time tell.

Why ? Because he scored less than 12ppg on a team that scores ( his best year ever ). Because he can't shoot FT's. Because he has no range.

argo
08-09-2009, 11:04 PM
i've been saying we should go after biedrens for 2 years now, but i think we need to get more than one player in the deal.. i'd trade bosh because of his commitment issues and questionable knees.

secterm
08-09-2009, 11:22 PM
Regardless of the style GS plays they are a TERRIBLE team defensively



And BTW, Biedrins has improved a way more rapid pace than Bargs

Yeah, that's a fact. He's a dominant defensive player. On the worst defensive team in the NBA.

FG% is the truest indicator or how good or bad a team is defensively. It means a lot more than points against because if a team plays a faster style, both teams score more points. It's not as though teams which have an offensive style of putting the ball up quicker are automatically poor defensively because their opponent will score MORE POINTS over MORE POSSESSIONS.

You're suggesting that Golden State is such a bad defensive team, and so Biedrins apparent great play defensively would not translate to Toronto. Well if he's the best defensive player on Golden State he would most likely be the best defensive player on the Raptors. The Raptors rank 21st in the league with .465% opp FG%, Golden State ranks 23rd in the league with .468% opp FG%.

Worst opposing FG% in the league:
Toronto .465
Phoenix .467%
Golden State .468%
Memphis
Minnesota
Oklahoma City
New York
Washington
Sacramento .483%

Best opposing FG% in the league
Cleveland .431%
Boston
Orlando .433%
Denver
Houston
Lakers

secterm
08-09-2009, 11:51 PM
i've been saying we should go after biedrens for 2 years now, but i think we need to get more than one player in the deal.. i'd trade bosh because of his commitment issues and questionable knees.

Last year it was reported that we were being offered a package that included Biedrins + Randolph + more.

I would be content with:
Bosh + Banks (total salaries around 20 Mill)
FOR
Biedrins + Brandan Wright or Anthony Randolph + Speedy Claxton + first round pick (total salaries around 17 mill)

The raptors could take slightly less (a 2nd rounder instead of a first) and still do okay, but I think Golden State would heavily consider that deal. Nelli really wants a big that can score.

We could also move Speedy Claxton very easily for a player or two that interest us. Claxton has an expiring and is considered much more serviceable for the upcoming season than Marcus Banks. In fact, G State traded Jamal Crawford for him.

phoenix_bladen
08-10-2009, 12:52 AM
i wonder what would it be like if dwight howard and bargnani played together

one dominate player inside with good defence

one player that can shot the lights uot and drive with average defence

wow perfect compliment

maybe we shiould trade bosh and 5 first rounders for dwight!!!

j/ks!

ChongInc.
08-10-2009, 04:18 AM
Biedrins is a top defensive player in the NBA. He is also quite competent on offense and while he doesn't excel offensively, the guy shoots one of the highest percentages in the league. He doesn't take bad shots and he still manages to score 12 pt a game. He actually scores the most efficient 12 pt a game possible.

Bargs is not a top offensive player in the league or even close. In fact, I wouldn't even consider Bargs totally competent defensively, he's not horrible, but barely competent.

I think it is more likely that Biedrins becomes a good offensive player than for Bargs to become a good defensive player. But even if they both improve the weaker parts of their games, Biedrins will more than likely be one of the top defensive players in the league over the next decade and Bargs is unlikely to be one of the top offensive player during the next decade.

Realistically, we have more scoring than we need and not enough defense and rebounding. An AB for AB swap would definitely bring that defensive/rebounding/toughness aspect to our team, and we would still have a ton of scoring.

Biedrins is available on the market cause Nelli loves offense and run and gun (though is doesn't ever win championships). Their is no better fit in the league for Biedrins than the Raps and he could be the chip that puts us over the top and into being a contender.

really? you seriously dont think bargs will be a top offensive player?


5 yrs 50 mill a Bargain? The consensus among non-raptor prople is that the Raps overpaid but I guess your judgement couldn't possibly be clouded, right. If it was such a bargain than what would you figure he's worth? 15 mill? Maybe 20 mill? Perhaps his real worth is 25 mill a yr, right?

I honestly don't think he's worth more than 7 or 8 mill a yr and that's what we should have paid him. But then BC what have felt stupid, being that his precious 1st overall pick has turned out to be an 7 or 8mill/yr player, which is only marginally over the average league salary. Buy signing him for more, maybe BC can kid himself for a little longer.

And this isn't to say Bargs isn't a decent player...but he's far, far, far, far from great.

you will eat those words this season.


i've been saying we should go after biedrens for 2 years now, but i think we need to get more than one player in the deal.. i'd trade bosh because of his commitment issues and questionable knees.

thats an interesting point about the knees.


And BTW, Biedrins has improved a way more rapid pace than Bargs

improved on a one-dimensional game. bargs has been learning a new position and completly new style of play in the best league in the world.
imo i just dont think you can make the argument that biedrins will be a better offensive player than bargs.


Last year it was reported that we were being offered a package that included Biedrins + Randolph + more.

I would be content with:
Bosh + Banks (total salaries around 20 Mill)
FOR
Biedrins + Brandan Wright or Anthony Randolph + Speedy Claxton + first round pick (total salaries around 17 mill)

The raptors could take slightly less (a 2nd rounder instead of a first) and still do okay, but I think Golden State would heavily consider that deal. Nelli really wants a big that can score.

We could also move Speedy Claxton very easily for a player or two that interest us. Claxton has an expiring and is considered much more serviceable for the upcoming season than Marcus Banks. In fact, G State traded Jamal Crawford for him.

they were offering belinelli last year.
and i think we should have taken the deal last year because that first rounder turned into Curry.

but basically what im reading is that you would prefer to keep bargnani over bosh?

secterm
08-10-2009, 04:29 AM
really? you seriously dont think bargs will be a top offensive player?



you will eat those words this season.



thats an interesting point about the knees.



improved on a one-dimensional game. bargs has been learning a new position and completly new style of play in the best league in the world.
imo i just dont think you can make the argument that biedrins will be a better offensive player than bargs.



they were offering belinelli last year.
and i think we should have taken the deal last year because that first rounder turned into Curry.

but basically what im reading is that you would prefer to keep bargnani over bosh?

Bosh is a better player and thus worth more on the open market. The inside out duo of Bargs and Biedrins would look good. So would Bosh and Biedrins. I like Biedrins alot. The guy has improved faster than Bargs over the last couple of years, and he could easily be our defensive big for years to come. Every good team needs a starting big that is tough and bangs in the post. Bosh doesn't really cut it in that department and we don't know where he'll even play next year. I also like the idea of the "Extra" value (players/picks) we could get out of a Bosh trade and the fact that we could likely toss in Marcus "bricks" Banks into a Bosh deal.

ramz.n
08-10-2009, 05:25 AM
if a trade were to happen for biedrins...bosh would be leaving...bargnani is signed long term while bosh has yet to sign anything..and could possibly want to leave if this team does not perform well.

swoop
08-10-2009, 06:48 AM
i wonder what would it be like if dwight howard and bargnani played together

one dominate player inside with good defence

one player that can shot the lights uot and drive with average defence

wow perfect compliment

maybe we shiould trade bosh and 5 first rounders for dwight!!!

j/ks!


Why settle for Howard, when we can get Bieeeeeeedrins ?

swoop
08-10-2009, 07:03 AM
FG% is the truest indicator or how good or bad a team is defensively. It means a lot more than points against because if a team plays a faster style, both teams score more points. It's not as though teams which have an offensive style of putting the ball up quicker are automatically poor defensively because their opponent will score MORE POINTS over MORE POSSESSIONS.

You're suggesting that Golden State is such a bad defensive team, and so Biedrins apparent great play defensively would not translate to Toronto. Well if he's the best defensive player on Golden State he would most likely be the best defensive player on the Raptors. The Raptors rank 21st in the league with .465% opp FG%, Golden State ranks 23rd in the league with .468% opp FG%.

Worst opposing FG% in the league:
Toronto .465
Phoenix .467%
Golden State .468%
Memphis
Minnesota
Oklahoma City
New York
Washington
Sacramento .483%

Best opposing FG% in the league
Cleveland .431%
Boston
Orlando .433%
Denver
Houston
Lakers


So if FG% is important, GS was 23rd, behind the Raptors. Thus it is obvious he would become the best defensive Raptor ? You are still arguing that the team that gives up the most points and has the 23rd best opp. FG% also employs a defensive presence that is so valuable that we would should trade an allstar PF to get him ? Hmmm. Well as long as he can score, oh right, no range means he's not going to improve much offensively. And because he's such a bad FT shooter, he becomes a liability in late game situations. Sorry, case dismissed.

dhalvarez
08-10-2009, 01:38 PM
No more white players please...lol jk, but I would still prefer Bargs...cause I like him more, but Biedrins has more speed than Bargs and can get to the basket more, but I still prefer Bargs.

I was hoping that they would trade Bosh for Lee and Galinari.

just imagine:

C Bargnani
PF Lee
SF Turk
SG Belinilli
PG Calderon

AWESOME!! LOL!

secterm
08-10-2009, 01:42 PM
So if FG% is important, GS was 23rd, behind the Raptors. Thus it is obvious he would become the best defensive Raptor ? You are still arguing that the team that gives up the most points and has the 23rd best opp. FG% also employs a defensive presence that is so valuable that we would should trade an allstar PF to get him ? Hmmm. Well as long as he can score, oh right, no range means he's not going to improve much offensively. And because he's such a bad FT shooter, he becomes a liability in late game situations. Sorry, case dismissed.

You just know I'm right and you're still focused on points which means nothing decisive in the context of a fast paced style. Opponents FG% actually shows how well a team stops another team from scoring. A team could give up the least amount of points in the NBA and still be horrible defensively if the opposing team score half the time (.500%). If you want to ignore reason, go ahead, but Opponents FG% is the best stat to go by to judge Defense, and according to that, Golden State and Toronto and equally not good defensively. So if he is arguably the best defensive player on the Warriors, why wouldn't he be on the Raptors.

As for his FT%, right now that is the biggest drawback in his game, however, over the last 2 years he's averaged close to 60% from the line. And while 60% from the line isn't great, it's good enough not to be a liability. Orlando's seems to be managing with their center that has had a sub 60% FT% over each of the last 4 years. Shaq's dominated for years while being a terrible free throw shooter. The point of this is not that Biedrins is as good as Howard or Shaq in his prime, it's that players can still be dominant in this league without being good FT%. BTW, he's only 23, and it's conceivable that his FT% improves. J.O.'s FT% with Portland was in the 50's% while he played in Portland (for his first 4 years) and once he went over the Indy, he turned into a solid FT shooter, shooting in the mid 70's%. If that is the only EVIDENCE you have a Biedrins not being a solid player, it's not enough to make a decent case. I mean if improves over the next couple of years (like J.O. did in his early yeara) and becomes even just a 65% FT shooter, the guy would be a huge force in the league, as he has already opened alot of peoples eyes. Tim Duncan is a career 68% FT shooter and he is, and has been for some time, one of the best bigs in the league. case dismissed.

pebloemer
08-10-2009, 02:03 PM
:speechless:
Last year it was reported that we were being offered a package that included Biedrins + Randolph + more.

I would be content with:
Bosh + Banks (total salaries around 20 Mill)
FOR
Biedrins + Brandan Wright or Anthony Randolph + Speedy Claxton + first round pick (total salaries around 17 mill)

The raptors could take slightly less (a 2nd rounder instead of a first) and still do okay, but I think Golden State would heavily consider that deal. Nelli really wants a big that can score.

We could also move Speedy Claxton very easily for a player or two that interest us. Claxton has an expiring and is considered much more serviceable for the upcoming season than Marcus Banks. In fact, G State traded Jamal Crawford for him.


Wouldn't that deal have looked great now with the improvement and extra weight on Randolph?

Now it does seemed that a Bosh trade (from Golden State) would yield at best Biedrins or Randolph and another young piece (draft pick or Wright you mentioned).

If that deal was indeed offered for Bosh, I would have welcomed it with open arms. Do we know that it was offered? I just read the idea on ESPN as a "Top 5 Trade that Should Happen." Didn't actually hear that the Raptor's were indeed offered the deal.

secterm
08-10-2009, 03:26 PM
:speechless:


Wouldn't that deal have looked great now with the improvement and extra weight on Randolph?

Now it does seemed that a Bosh trade (from Golden State) would yield at best Biedrins or Randolph and another young piece (draft pick or Wright you mentioned).

If that deal was indeed offered for Bosh, I would have welcomed it with open arms. Do we know that it was offered? I just read the idea on ESPN as a "Top 5 Trade that Should Happen." Didn't actually hear that the Raptor's were indeed offered the deal.

It was being reported in multiple sources last year that Golden State was making comparable offers for Bosh and Amare. At the time, it was thought there preference was Bosh. There was a couple reports that suggested that Golden State made the offer to Toronto but Toronto barely entertained the offer and simple brushed it off with a simple NO. Either way, it's fair to assume that the deal could have been made whether or not there was a concrete offer from Golden State, considering they were pursuing Amare hard (and that we know is a fact).

secterm
08-10-2009, 03:31 PM
Check out this thread http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10486767#post10486767 funniest posts ever

ChongInc.
08-10-2009, 08:50 PM
^ yeah i guess thats kind of funny... ^

swoop
08-11-2009, 07:47 AM
You just know I'm right and you're still focused on points which means nothing decisive in the context of a fast paced style. Opponents FG% actually shows how well a team stops another team from scoring. A team could give up the least amount of points in the NBA and still be horrible defensively if the opposing team score half the time (.500%). If you want to ignore reason, go ahead, but Opponents FG% is the best stat to go by to judge Defense, and according to that, Golden State and Toronto and equally not good defensively. So if he is arguably the best defensive player on the Warriors, why wouldn't he be on the Raptors.

As for his FT%, right now that is the biggest drawback in his game, however, over the last 2 years he's averaged close to 60% from the line. And while 60% from the line isn't great, it's good enough not to be a liability. Orlando's seems to be managing with their center that has had a sub 60% FT% over each of the last 4 years. Shaq's dominated for years while being a terrible free throw shooter. The point of this is not that Biedrins is as good as Howard or Shaq in his prime, it's that players can still be dominant in this league without being good FT%. BTW, he's only 23, and it's conceivable that his FT% improves. J.O.'s FT% with Portland was in the 50's% while he played in Portland (for his first 4 years) and once he went over the Indy, he turned into a solid FT shooter, shooting in the mid 70's%. If that is the only EVIDENCE you have a Biedrins not being a solid player, it's not enough to make a decent case. I mean if improves over the next couple of years (like J.O. did in his early yeara) and becomes even just a 65% FT shooter, the guy would be a huge force in the league, as he has already opened alot of peoples eyes. Tim Duncan is a career 68% FT shooter and he is, and has been for some time, one of the best bigs in the league. case dismissed.

1) You have shown nothing to support the idea that Biedrins will become a dominant player. You like him. We get that. He hasn't yet scored 12ppg. He has no range. He has a poor FT% (55.1% last year,down from 62% the year before). You could make the argument that any NBA'er will improve. If a player is going to score, being on the 2nd highest scoring team in the NBA should allow him to score more. A 'huge force in the league' doesn't score 12ppg unless he is a dominating defensive presence. Saying that he is arguably the best D on a team that is the 23rd worst in oppFG% is faint praise indeed. He has never made an NBA all-defensive team.
2) Funniest thing I've read here ever. " coring. A team could give up the least amount of points in the NBA and still be horrible defensively if the opposing team score half the time (.500%)." Please cite examples from any sports league,anywhere,anytime where the team giving up the least amount of points is 'horrible defensively'. Breaking down stats can be interesting and explain why things happen BUT allowing fewer points by the opposition WINS games.

Unruly Fan
08-11-2009, 09:11 AM
Do you really believe Bargs will be a 10.5-11.5 rebound per game type of player?:speechless::confused: I'll give you an opportunity to rethink that before I comment on that.Let me ask you this... Does Biedrins look like a 10.5-11.5 rebound per game type of player? He didn't start grabbing boards till his 3rd year; mind u he did see more minutes but regardless. I believe that Bargs will develop into something... more...

ramz.n
08-11-2009, 11:01 AM
Let me ask you this... Does Biedrins look like a 10.5-11.5 rebound per game type of player? He didn't start grabbing boards till his 3rd year; mind u he did see more minutes but regardless. I believe that Bargs will develop into something... more...

i agree with you..biedrins stats are shaky because of the style of play and the players hes playing with..but imo i don't think bargnani's numbers will improve this year because of the major signing of turk..bosh in his contract year..a healthy calderon and we actually have a bench now.

Legitimate
08-11-2009, 12:29 PM
i agree with you..biedrins stats are shaky because of the style of play and the players hes playing with..but imo i don't think bargnani's numbers will improve this year because of the major signing of turk..bosh in his contract year..a healthy calderon and we actually have a bench now.

I just hope Bargnani's more efficient this year with better rebounding numbers.

secterm
08-11-2009, 01:23 PM
1) You have shown nothing to support the idea that Biedrins will become a dominant player. You like him. We get that. He hasn't yet scored 12ppg. He has no range. He has a poor FT% (55.1% last year,down from 62% the year before). You could make the argument that any NBA'er will improve. If a player is going to score, being on the 2nd highest scoring team in the NBA should allow him to score more. A 'huge force in the league' doesn't score 12ppg unless he is a dominating defensive presence. Saying that he is arguably the best D on a team that is the 23rd worst in oppFG% is faint praise indeed. He has never made an NBA all-defensive team.
2) Funniest thing I've read here ever. " coring. A team could give up the least amount of points in the NBA and still be horrible defensively if the opposing team score half the time (.500%)." Please cite examples from any sports league,anywhere,anytime where the team giving up the least amount of points is 'horrible defensively'. Breaking down stats can be interesting and explain why things happen BUT allowing fewer points by the opposition WINS games.

A team could give up the fewest points in the NBA because they play a slow half court game and run the 24 second clock down on each of their offensive possessions, this would lead to their opposition having less possessions on thus scoring less overall points in the game. That alone doesn't say whether or not a team plays good defense or not. Points allowed isn't necessarily the indicator of good or bad defense. What is the indicator is opponents FG% because if the Raps (as a hypothetical example) give up .500% FG% shooting from their opponent, there defense stinks. Whether or not the other team scores 90pts, 100pts, 120pts, 140pts. The bottom line is that there opponent is scoring on half their attempts which indicates bad defense. Where as if the Raps give up .333% opponent FG%, their defense is good whatever the opposition scores because it shows that the opposition is only able to convert on 1 out of three of their attempts. The only other factors that can be marginally considered into the defensive statistical importants would be; opponents specific 3 point shooting %, opponents FT's points, blocks, steals and charges taken. The amount of points given up in a game is just a product of the things I've mentioned, most importantly, opponents FG%. Swoop, if you are this "coherently challenged" I would love to have a bet with you that the majority of people agree that the most important statistic regarding defense is opponents FG%.

scotttube
08-11-2009, 01:54 PM
I was hoping that they would trade Bosh for Lee and Galinari.

just imagine:

C Bargnani
PF Lee
SF Turk
SG Belinilli
PG Calderon

AWESOME!! LOL!

You trying to make the all-white team or something?

pebloemer
08-11-2009, 02:14 PM
A team could give up the fewest points in the NBA because they play a slow half court game and run the 24 second clock down on each of their offensive possessions, this would lead to their opposition having less possessions on thus scoring less overall points in the game. That alone doesn't say whether or not a team plays good defense or not. Points allowed isn't necessarily the indicator of good or bad defense. What is the indicator is opponents FG% because if the Raps (as a hypothetical example) give up .500% FG% shooting from their opponent, there defense stinks. Whether or not the other team scores 90pts, 100pts, 120pts, 140pts. The bottom line is that there opponent is scoring on half their attempts which indicates bad defense. Where as if the Raps give up .333% opponent FG%, their defense is good whatever the opposition scores because it shows that the opposition is only able to convert on 1 out of three of their attempts. The only other factors that can be marginally considered into the defensive statistical importants would be; opponents specific 3 point shooting %, opponents FT's points, blocks, steals and charges taken. The amount of points given up in a game is just a product of the things I've mentioned, most importantly, opponents FG%. Swoop, if you are this "coherently challenged" I would love to have a bet with you that the majority of people agree that the most important statistic regarding defense is opponents FG%.


1) You have shown nothing to support the idea that Biedrins will become a dominant player. You like him. We get that. He hasn't yet scored 12ppg. He has no range. He has a poor FT% (55.1% last year,down from 62% the year before). You could make the argument that any NBA'er will improve. If a player is going to score, being on the 2nd highest scoring team in the NBA should allow him to score more. A 'huge force in the league' doesn't score 12ppg unless he is a dominating defensive presence. Saying that he is arguably the best D on a team that is the 23rd worst in oppFG% is faint praise indeed. He has never made an NBA all-defensive team.
2) Funniest thing I've read here ever. " coring. A team could give up the least amount of points in the NBA and still be horrible defensively if the opposing team score half the time (.500%)." Please cite examples from any sports league,anywhere,anytime where the team giving up the least amount of points is 'horrible defensively'. Breaking down stats can be interesting and explain why things happen BUT allowing fewer points by the opposition WINS games.

This reminds me of the story about the blind men discussing an elephant.

All the blind men are asked the same question: "What is an elephant?"

The first blind man runs his hands down the trunk and sees that the elephant is long, loose and moist.
The second blind man feels the tail and states that the elephant is thin, with unpredictable movements.
The third blind man feels the legs and states that the elephant is broad and strong.
In reality, all three men were describing different parts of the same creature to get different definitions.

Is field goal percentage a good indicator of a team playing good defense? Certainly
Is 'ppg allowed' a good indicator of a team playing good defense? Certainly
How about turnovers caused? Does that play an impact? Certainly
How about defensive rebounding? Certainly

Can one indicator be centered out as the best statistic for defining a good defensive team? I certainly don't think so. It depends on the context of the game and the effectiveness of the defensive strategy. The teams who perform their strategies the best usually base it on the strengths of their players.

If a team keeps their opponent to a low field goal percentage, but gets crushed on the glass and can't secure a defensive board, does that make them a good defensive team?

If a team allows 90ppg, but their opponent shoots over 50% does the entail good defense?

If a team allows this opponent to shoot over 50%, but the cause 20 turnovers leading to many of their own points, is that called good defense?

ramz.n
08-11-2009, 02:18 PM
A team could give up the fewest points in the NBA because they play a slow half court game and run the 24 second clock down on each of their offensive possessions, this would lead to their opposition having less possessions on thus scoring less overall points in the game. That alone doesn't say whether or not a team plays good defense or not. Points allowed isn't necessarily the indicator of good or bad defense. What is the indicator is opponents FG% because if the Raps (as a hypothetical example) give up .500% FG% shooting from their opponent, there defense stinks. Whether or not the other team scores 90pts, 100pts, 120pts, 140pts. The bottom line is that there opponent is scoring on half their attempts which indicates bad defense. Where as if the Raps give up .333% opponent FG%, their defense is good whatever the opposition scores because it shows that the opposition is only able to convert on 1 out of three of their attempts. The only other factors that can be marginally considered into the defensive statistical importants would be; opponents specific 3 point shooting %, opponents FT's points, blocks, steals and charges taken. The amount of points given up in a game is just a product of the things I've mentioned, most importantly, opponents FG%. Swoop, if you are this "coherently challenged" I would love to have a bet with you that the majority of people agree that the most important statistic regarding defense is opponents FG%.

bad defense...or just unstoppable offense?...it could also deal with how streaky teams get.

katman
08-11-2009, 02:24 PM
Or a more pragmatic perspective might be . . . is your defense good enough in relation to your offense, so you can win most of your games.

pebloemer
08-11-2009, 02:27 PM
Or a more pragmatic perspective might be . . . is your defense good enough in relation to your offense, so you can win most of your games.

Exactly.

secterm
08-11-2009, 02:41 PM
This reminds me of the story about the blind men discussing an elephant.

All the blind men are asked the same question: "What is an elephant?"

The first blind man runs his hands down the trunk and sees that the elephant is long, loose and moist.
The second blind man feels the tail and states that the elephant is thin, with unpredictable movements.
The third blind man feels the legs and states that the elephant is broad and strong.
In reality, all three men were describing different parts of the same creature to get different definitions.

Is field goal percentage a good indicator of a team playing good defense? Certainly
Is ppg allowed a good indicator of a team play good defense? Certainly
How about turnovers caused? Does that play an impact? Certainly
How about defensive rebounding? Certainly

Can one indicator be centered out as the best statistic for defining a good defensive team? I certainly don't think so. It depends on the context of the game and the effectiveness of the defensive strategy. The teams who perform their strategies the best usually base it on the strengths of their players.

If a team keeps their opponent to a low field goal percentage, but gets crushed on the glass and can't secure a defensive board, does that make them a good defensive team?

If a team allows 90ppg, but their opponent shoots over 50% does the entail good defense?

If a team allows this opponent to shoot over 50%, but the cause 20 turnovers leading to many of their own points, is that called good defense?

Good point Pebloemer.

I would say the more significant factors to good defense are (in relative order):

1) Opponents FG%
2) The amount of offensive rebounds by the opponent
3) Opponents 3-point FG%
4) Steals
5) Blocks
6) Offensive charges taken

If all of these 6 stats look good at the end of a game (let me know if missed one), your team played good defence whether or no they gave up 80pts or 120pts. This can be looked at relative to different opponents offenses. Meaning you can't expect to have as good numbers against the best offensive teams as you would against poor offensive team. A team can gauge themselves based upon what other teams stats have been against that particular opponent (see the 6 categories above).

The rest is simply up to the work on the other side of the court, offense.

pebloemer
08-11-2009, 03:01 PM
Good point Pebloemer.

I would say the more significant factors to good defense are (in relative order):

1) Opponents FG%
2) The amount of offensive rebounds by the opponent
3) Opponents 3-point FG%
4) Steals
5) Blocks
6) Offensive charges taken

If all of these 6 stats look good at the end of a game (let me know if missed one), your team played good defence whether or no they gave up 80pts or 120pts. This can be looked at relative to different opponents offenses. Meaning you can't expect to have as good numbers against the best offensive teams as you would against poor offensive team. A team can gauge themselves based upon what other teams stats have been against that particular opponent (see the 6 categories above).

The rest is simply up to the work on the other side of the court, offense.

I would also say that each of those is related to "PPG allowed," which can be seen in the context of pace (Hollinger's Defensive Efficiency does this - ppg per 100 possessions). But statistics as a whole still don't give the whole story, they are simply tools that helps us understand different parts of the game. For example, I'm not sure how you would quantify the Spurs being able to slow down the Phoenix Suns' running pace in the playoffs for so many years.

All in all, the important part of a defensive scheme is how it helps you win games. If causing more turnovers creates many fast break points and gets your team running (which is a strength of your team), then maybe that is a more important factor for your team than it is for ones who simply rely on forcing outside contested shots (see Boston).

Defense and Offense are not mutually exclusive either. If a team turns the ball over more frequently on offense, it will yield more fast break points and easy baskets against them - thus their mistake on offense yields a better FG% for the opposing team). If a team forces more turnovers, it could yield for better offensive statistics on their own team.

Everything is taken in the context of the game, but the importance of all of it is how it helps your team win - at the end of the day, that is what matters most.

swoop
08-11-2009, 03:14 PM
Coulda,shoulda,woulda....one example based in reality please. Which team played 'horrible defence' and allowed fewest points. In theory anything's possible, even Biedrins being dominant.

secterm
08-11-2009, 03:47 PM
I would also say that each of those is related to "PPG allowed," which can be seen in the context of pace (Hollinger's Defensive Efficiency does this - ppg per 100 possessions). But statistics as a whole still don't give the whole story, they are simply tools that helps us understand different parts of the game. For example, I'm not sure how you would quantify the Spurs being able to slow down the Phoenix Suns' running pace in the playoffs for so many years.

All in all, the important part of a defensive scheme is how it helps you win games. If causing more turnovers creates many fast break points and gets your team running (which is a strength of your team), then maybe that is a more important factor for your team than it is for ones who simply rely on forcing outside contested shots (see Boston).

Defense and Offense are not mutually exclusive either. If a team turns the ball over more frequently on offense, it will yield more fast break points and easy baskets against them - thus their mistake on offense yields a better FG% for the opposing team). If a team forces more turnovers, it could yield for better offensive statistics on their own team.

Everything is taken in the context of the game, but the importance of all of it is how it helps your team win - at the end of the day, that is what matters most.

I would say they (all 6 factors I previously listed) all go into making the final opponents points. These are the MAIN factors, there are always other factors. But even slowing down the Suns wouldn't have helped the Spurs if the Suns shot like .550% or something. I definitly would say that FG% is the biggest of the factors (as I ordered the factors in my previous post). Points allowed isn't a factor, it is more of a result of all the factors, and it is a relative result.

I would say Memphis is a worse defensive team than Golden State even though opponents averaged only 99.34pt a game against Memphis last year and Golden State's opponents averaged 112.34. Sounds crazy?

In fact, if the "opponents PPG translates to a team's defense" theory was true, than the following teams would be worse defensively than Memphis as all of these following teams gave up more points per game than Memphis: Denver, Utah, Toronto, Chicago, Phoenix. This is according to last year opponents ppg. In my opinion, Memphis is without a doubt worse defensively than these teams even though they give up more points per game. And if opponants points per game is so relevant for defensive analysis, than Memphis would be of the same caliber of defense as the LAKERS!

Points per game comparison
-Lakers give up 99.26 ppg
-Memphis gives up 99.34 ppg

Opponents FG% comparison
-Lakers are 6th in the league (.447)
-Memphis is 25th in the league (.473)

So is opponents ppg really that important in judging a teams defense?

pebloemer
08-11-2009, 03:59 PM
I would say they (all 6 factors I previously listed) all go into making the final opponents points. These are the MAIN factors, there are always other factors. But even slowing down the Suns wouldn't have helped the Spurs if the Suns shot like .550% or something. I definitly would say that FG% is the biggest of the factors (as I ordered the factors in my previous post). Points allowed isn't a factor, it is more of a result of all the factors, and it is a relative result.

I would say Memphis is a worse defensive team than Golden State even though opponents averaged only 99.34pt a game against Memphis last year and Golden State's opponents averaged 112.34. Sounds crazy?

In fact, if the "opponents PPG translates to a team's defense" theory was true, than the following teams would be worse defensively than Memphis as all of these following teams gave up more points per game than Memphis: Denver, Utah, Toronto, Chicago, Phoenix. This is according to last year opponents ppg. In my opinion, Memphis is without a doubt worse defensively than these teams even though they give up more points per game. And if opponants points per game is so relevant for defensive analysis, than Memphis would be of the same caliber of defense as the LAKERS!

Points per game comparison
-Lakers give up 99.26 ppg
-Memphis gives up 99.34 ppg

Opponents FG% comparison
-Lakers are 6th in the league (.447)
-Memphis is 25th in the league (.473)

So is opponents ppg really that important in judging a teams defense?


I stated PPG "in the context of pace." So per 100 possessions. I have to head home now, but if you go on ESPN.com and look in statistics, Hollinger's team states has a defensive efficiency rating that measures this.

My whole point is namely that in the context of the game, all the statistics are relevent, and depending on strategies and strength's different stats can be more or less relevant in different situations.

secterm
08-11-2009, 04:50 PM
I stated PPG "in the context of pace." So per 100 possessions. I have to head home now, but if you go on ESPN.com and look in statistics, Hollinger's team states has a defensive efficiency rating that measures this.

My whole point is namely that in the context of the game, all the statistics are relevent, and depending on strategies and strength's different stats can be more or less relevant in different situations.

Sure, I don't disagree, with that. That last post of mine was actually intended for SWOOP who contends golden state is a terrible defensive team as points allowed per game is his indicator that he uses. If that was the case, the Laker and Nuggets would be in the same class defensively as the Grizzlies, and I think we all know that's not true.

swoop
08-11-2009, 07:17 PM
All of this to show that GS is not the worst but 8th worst defensive team in the NBA ?
And somehow all of this shows that Biedrins is a dominant defensive force ?
No all-defensive NBA teams, never scored 12ppg.

secterm
08-11-2009, 09:21 PM
All of this to show that GS is not the worst but 8th worst defensive team in the NBA ?
And somehow all of this shows that Biedrins is a dominant defensive force ?
No all-defensive NBA teams, never scored 12ppg.

Yup. for all intents and purposes, G State is 8th worst Toronto is 10th worst.

You say things like:

And BTW, Biedrins has improved a way more rapid pace than Bargs

Yeah, that's a fact. He's a dominant defensive player. On the worst defensive team in the NBA.
So are we to forgot you calling him a dominant defensive player?
you've argued and mentioned about a half dozen times how Biedrins, a 23 year old up and coming player has never been on an all-nba defensive team? So, I guess you're right swoop. Biedrins has never been on on all-defensive team so he must not be good defensive player.

All you have to say is that he's never been on an all defensive team. You've also said numerous times that he's never score 12ppg, your right, he score 11.9. I could see you arguing about a guy who gets 19.9 and 9.9 as not a 20/10 player. You're a joke.

You say:

Bargs is obviously improving. Trading either for Biedrins, who is the only rebounder on his team which buoys his stats, would be a mistake.
well, where's your evidence? Bargs All-star games? dominant player? Improving? Well we both acknowledged Biedrins has been improving on a faster pace. What makes you so sure that Bargs is worth more than Biedrins? What kind of acclaimations has Bargs received? Was he rookie of the year? Was he on any all NBA team? No.

RaptorizedKevin posted:
why cant he be a 20+ scorer? his stats over the years have increased and hes still young. .everyone thought bargnani would never be a 20+ point scored, but he has for many months this year. so dont presume peoples stats wouldnt letting time tell.

and you responded:
Why ? Because he scored less than 12ppg on a team that scores ( his best year ever ). Because he can't shoot FT's. Because he has no range.

Wow, i never know that guys who aren't good FT shooters and have no range couldn't average over 20ppg. I guess all those dozens of guys that come to mind must have all been an illusion, cause nobody who doesn't have range or can't shoot FT well can't score more than 20ppg, right. Oh and don't forget for the umpteenth time, Biedrins never scored 12ppg he score only 11.9, and that must be a big difference for you to have pointed it out as many times as you have. You're one of those guys that argue to no end. I could see you arguing anything, because you not trying to consider other people points, you just keep writing: never 12ppg, never all defensive, never all-star. I bet if Biedrins became an all-defensive player you would say "well this other guy had a bad year" or "the guy who would've gotten got injured" or something. You just argue. Arguing with people like you just feeds your love of arguing to no end, so I'm finished attempting to talk some sense into you, you can go argue with someone else. Have fun buddy.

harmen_raptors
08-11-2009, 10:22 PM
if the raptors want a championchip they need a centre. barg is not one, and bied is one. so y not make this deal. also remember what shaq did last year to the raptors

clutchski
08-11-2009, 11:32 PM
if the raptors want a championchip they need a centre. barg is not one, and bied is one. so y not make this deal. also remember what shaq did last year to the raptors

I gotta disagree with you man, you don't know if Bargs is a centre or not. He brings a lot to the table that could make him a phenomenal centre, remember..he's really, really young. Big men tend to take time to develop, unless they're a freak of nature, such as Dwight..and even he needs to work on his skills a great deal.

swoop
08-12-2009, 12:59 AM
Yup. for all intents and purposes, G State is 8th worst Toronto is 10th worst.

You say things like:

So are we to forgot you calling him a dominant defensive player?
you've argued and mentioned about a half dozen times how Biedrins, a 23 year old up and coming player has never been on an all-nba defensive team? So, I guess you're right swoop. Biedrins has never been on on all-defensive team so he must not be good defensive player.

All you have to say is that he's never been on an all defensive team. You've also said numerous times that he's never score 12ppg, your right, he score 11.9. I could see you arguing about a guy who gets 19.9 and 9.9 as not a 20/10 player. You're a joke.

You say:

well, where's your evidence? Bargs All-star games? dominant player? Improving? Well we both acknowledged Biedrins has been improving on a faster pace. What makes you so sure that Bargs is worth more than Biedrins? What kind of acclaimations has Bargs received? Was he rookie of the year? Was he on any all NBA team? No.

RaptorizedKevin posted:
why cant he be a 20+ scorer? his stats over the years have increased and hes still young. .everyone thought bargnani would never be a 20+ point scored, but he has for many months this year. so dont presume peoples stats wouldnt letting time tell.

and you responded:
Why ? Because he scored less than 12ppg on a team that scores ( his best year ever ). Because he can't shoot FT's. Because he has no range.

Wow, i never know that guys who aren't good FT shooters and have no range couldn't average over 20ppg. I guess all those dozens of guys that come to mind must have all been an illusion, cause nobody who doesn't have range or can't shoot FT well can't score more than 20ppg, right. Oh and don't forget for the umpteenth time, Biedrins never scored 12ppg he score only 11.9, and that must be a big difference for you to have pointed it out as many times as you have. You're one of those guys that argue to no end. I could see you arguing anything, because you not trying to consider other people points, you just keep writing: never 12ppg, never all defensive, never all-star. I bet if Biedrins became an all-defensive player you would say "well this other guy had a bad year" or "the guy who would've gotten got injured" or something. You just argue. Arguing with people like you just feeds your love of arguing to no end, so I'm finished attempting to talk some sense into you, you can go argue with someone else. Have fun buddy.

1) I was quoting you, please try and keep up, look up a coupla posts.."BTW..."
2) Barg's 15.3ppg and 5.3 rebs are an improvement, no ?
3) Who are these guys that rival the great 11.9ppg Biedrins (19.9 is a big difference) ?
4) All I've asked for is evidence. Some facts. You presented an opinion, I just asked you to back it up. I never said this thread was stupid or nonsensical like some have. I never called you names or attacked you personally like others. I never said that you were evidence of poor posting patterns, though others chose to. Not everyone is going to agree with you because it's your opinion. Sure someone like Biedrins could be better, even really good, but where is the proof ?

p.s I never said any of those superlative things about Bargs. I'm not covinced he will be dominant, that's why I never said it.

khanraymond
08-12-2009, 01:24 AM
So the debate between Bargnani and Biedrins:
Biedrins is a better shot blocker and rebounder at the center position.

lets take a look.

Rebounding: NBA best rebounding team, team with best rebounder and Raptors

Lakers were the best rebounding team at 43.9 RPG.
Lets look at their 3 best rebounders = Gasol 9.6, Odom 8.2 and Bynum 8.0 = 25.8.
Orlando had the best rebounder.
Their 3 best rebounders = Howard 13.8 + Lewis 5.7 + Hedo 5.3 = 24.8

Now the Raptors:
Bosh, Bargnani (starting) and Hedo = 10 + 5.2 + 5.3 = 20.5.

Rebound differential of approx 4-5 rbs per game from the best in the league to the Raptors.

If Bargnani steps up his game to 7 RPG (very likely)
Bosh steps up to the days of Atlantic division champions - 11 RPG (remember he was injuried last year)
And Hedo gives us close to 6RPG (did it the previous season with 5.7 RBG)
Then Bosh, Bargnani, Hedo combination would be comparable to other dominant rebounding trio's - we would only be 1-2 RPG from the best.

The whole point - rarely do you find two +10 rebounders on 1 team. Actually the 2 best rebounding teams had only 1 or 3 above average rebounders, the latter being more likely of the Raptors.

So trading Bargnani for Biedrins to help our rebounding would not make much sense.
While I think it would help a little (maybe 1 or 2 extra RBG)...it wouldn't help as much as we would think.
But factoring in what you lose offensively, it doesn't make sense.


Now shotblocking...

Biedrins 48 min projection = 2.4 blks and 6.1 fouls = meaning 39% shot blocking % (based on the assumption that most fouls come from defending the basket)
Bargnani 48 min projection = 1.9 blks and 4.7 fouls = meaning 40% shot blocking % (based on the assumption that most fouls come from defending the basket)

1/2 BPG with equal blk/foul ratio - slight increase in defense

So is the slight increase in rebounding and defense worth the loss of Bargnani 41% 3P%, 83%FT% and 18PPG?

secterm
08-12-2009, 04:03 AM
1) I was quoting you, please try and keep up, look up a coupla posts.."BTW..."keep up, i don't even know what you're saying "look up coupla posts", are you speaking some sort of english hybrid?
2) Barg's 15.3ppg and 5.3 rebs are an improvement, no ?Sure, it's an improvement, but it looks bigger than it is since it came after a horrible year for him. Improving on crap isn't as good as improving on quality
3) Who are these guys that rival the great 11.9ppg Biedrins (19.9 is a big difference) ?What are you talking about, I commented that you constantly refered to biedrins as not able to score 12ppg when he scored 11.9
4) All I've asked for is evidence. Some facts. You presented an opinion, I just asked you to back it up. I never said this thread was stupid or nonsensical like some have. I never called you names or attacked you personally like others. I never said that you were evidence of poor posting patterns, though others chose to. Not everyone is going to agree with you because it's your opinion. Sure someone like Biedrins could be better, even really good, but where is the proof ? How am I suppose to prove something that is completely subjective...and there have been countless people in this thread that have agreed with me even though this is a Raptors forum which is bias towards Bargnani and I haven't noticed people calling this a "stupid or nonsensical". And BTW, people say that kind of stuff in every thread, big deal.

p.s I never said any of those superlative things about Bargs. I'm not covinced he will be dominant, that's why I never said it.so you're not convince Bargs will be dominant so you are just anti Biedrins?

Nobody can prove anything that hasn't yet happened. People around this league and around PSD, perhaps Toronto and Golden State aside put Biedrins and Bargnani around the same conversation (there is a current poll in which Biedrins is ahead in a head to head comparison vote). The only proof we have are the numbers and when a guy averages over 11 boards per game on the NBA level, that's impressive. I don't believe Bargnani has really put up any impressive numbers. Bargs has put up numbers that make some think he could maybe be something, but nothing impressive on the NBA level. When it comes to numbers, 12 and 11 s alot more impressive than 15 and 5. While Barg's three years in the league have been up and down, 1st yr okay, 2nd yr worse, 3r yr better...Biedrins has continued to show improvement for 5 yrs. Biedrins has put up good numbers for the last three years, and he's 23, while Bargs has put good numbers for just one year at the same age.

Another thing is that very few Center's in the league are depended on for scoring, most are looked at for boards and defence, which Biedrins is clearly better at. I would prefer a Center that can rebound and bang more than a Center that plays around the perimeter, but that's my opinion. I think there are enough other guys to handle the jump shooting game.

The Raps need that extra rebounding and defense in the starting line-up as they are weak in those category. I would much rather have Biedrins on guys like D. Howard, Perkings, Shaq, etc. Bargs is no match for those guys in the post.

Your a JOKE Swoop. You aren't convince of Bargnani and you aren't convince of Biedrins. So what are you? You're just an idiot that posts for no reason but to try and irritate others. Everything you've said gets shot down and dismissed so you've simply resorted to question mark post. You sure add alot to these threads. Why don't you go make some more stuff up in your next post, I'm looking forward to reading it, it's good comedy.

King_melo
08-12-2009, 06:44 AM
Bargnani is rarely on the block on offense if you noticed. AB on offense is usually far from the paint ready to take bigger PF/C off the dribble or ready to spot up. This obviously hurts his offensive rebounding which is only 0.8 per game, while Bosh has 2.8 offensive rebounds and Biedrin has 3.6 rpg. Therefore having Bargnani play more in the paint would easily give him the 8 rpg if not more. Although Bargnani isn't a great rebounder, he isn't as bad as people make him out to be.

swoop
08-12-2009, 07:46 AM
Don't get your panties all twisted there Secterm. You said Bied's was dominant. I disagreed. I guess your man-crush on him allows no quarter. I ask for fact, you give opinion. I think Bargs could be very good. If I made claims that he was dominant (though you now say you mean the future), I'd be prepared to back it up or take the heat. Grow up.

Unruly Fan
08-12-2009, 09:30 AM
if the raptors want a championchip they need a centre. barg is not one, and bied is one. so y not make this deal. also remember what shaq did last year to the raptorsIn this case, I'm almost certain Biedrins wouldn't have been able to help us either.

secterm
08-12-2009, 02:59 PM
Don't get your panties all twisted there Secterm. You said Bied's was dominant. I disagreed. I guess your man-crush on him allows no quarter. I ask for fact, you give opinion. I think Bargs could be very good. If I made claims that he was dominant (though you now say you mean the future), I'd be prepared to back it up or take the heat. Grow up.

SWOOP, you're not worth the time. You don't actually say anything of value. You just comment on what others say and try to be confrontational. Good work SWOOP

yungballah15
08-12-2009, 03:13 PM
biedrens is a good player, but i think bargs is a better fit, he brings more things to the raptors, has a shoot of the dribble, he has passing abilitys, his post defence is gettin better, he puts in the work to get better, i really think his rebounding is going to get better, but it probaly wont be at biedrens level, cuz thats biedrens game, to hit the boards. and i feel that biedrens has to get all the boards, g state dont got a lot of rebounders in the starting lineup so thats his main job, with biedrens and bosh, i think biedrens rebounding numbers will go down because he aint the only bigman. i want to see bargs grow into the player that we all thought he will be which he is taking big steps to in a toronto raptors uniform.

secterm
08-12-2009, 11:52 PM
biedrens is a good player, but i think bargs is a better fit, he brings more things to the raptors, has a shoot of the dribble, he has passing abilitys, his post defence is gettin better, he puts in the work to get better, i really think his rebounding is going to get better, but it probaly wont be at biedrens level, cuz thats biedrens game, to hit the boards. and i feel that biedrens has to get all the boards, g state dont got a lot of rebounders in the starting lineup so thats his main job, with biedrens and bosh, i think biedrens rebounding numbers will go down because he aint the only bigman. i want to see bargs grow into the player that we all thought he will be which he is taking big steps to in a toronto raptors uniform.

Bargs and Biedrins would be a deadly front court combo in a few years, they compliment each other well

The Wise 1
08-13-2009, 11:28 AM
Bargs and Biedrins would be a deadly front court combo in a few years, they compliment each other well

There are plenty of guys out there who all they can do is rebound and do nothing else.

secterm
08-13-2009, 01:49 PM
There are plenty of guys out there who all they can do is rebound and do nothing else.

Biedrins does alot more than rebound. He's a solid center in this league

swoop
08-13-2009, 05:05 PM
" Biedrins does alot more than rebound "

Such as ?

secterm
08-13-2009, 06:04 PM
" Biedrins does alot more than rebound "

Such as ?

Nothing, SWOOP. Biendrins does nothing other than rebounding.:nod:

swoop
08-13-2009, 06:39 PM
That sounded suspiciously like 'uncle'.

secterm
08-13-2009, 06:44 PM
That sounded suspiciously like 'uncle'.

Sure thing, SWOOP, sure thing. You da man big fellow. Keep up the good work :worthy:

ramz.n
08-13-2009, 06:59 PM
There are plenty of guys out there who all they can do is rebound and do nothing else.

and we got one of them already in reggie evans :p

swoop
08-13-2009, 07:02 PM
That's more like it. I'll send you my Warriors jersey with #15 stitched on it. You deserve it.

secterm
08-13-2009, 07:36 PM
That's more like it. I'll send you my Warriors jersey with #15 stitched on it. You deserve it.

:confused: huh?

This guy's a joke. There's a circus coming to town and this guy should try out for clown. It also appears his "uncle" may already be in the profession.

swoop
08-14-2009, 02:21 AM
Earnest, unfunny & easily provoked. I offered an olive branch and you re-edited. You sir, are a classless dolt.

secterm
08-14-2009, 02:38 AM
Earnest, unfunny & easily provoked. I offered an olive branch and you re-edited. You sir, are a classless dolt.

Hahaha. What a joke. Swoop is a "sure thing" for a clown position. :D

Mile High Champ
08-14-2009, 12:53 PM
Thread has run its coruse, posts are off topic.. Closed..