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KingsMadness44
08-06-2009, 10:31 PM
me and my friend got into a bit of a debate on whether or not NBA players currently use or in the past have used steroids? my friend thinks that players such as dwight howard, karl malone, lebron james, and even MICHAEL JORDAN

i was saying hes trippin but i jus wanted to see what u thought!

ManRam
08-06-2009, 10:39 PM
I think he's tripping. It's possible to be a freakish athlete without using steroids. I know the MLB has tarnished a lot of things, but I like to think these are the best athletes in the world, and them being freaks isn't because of unnatural reasons. The best of the best make it to the NBA...so to see guys who's bodies blow your mind shouldn't be terribly surprising.

I don't think there is much of a steroid problem at all in the NBA. It just doesn't help you as much as it would in baseball. Guys like Dwight and LeBron and Oden were man freaks way back in high school. They're just blessed.

No one has ever really been busted for HGH or anabolic steroids before in the NBA either, not that I'm aware of. So there isn't any real evidence. All speculation.

The Prodigy
08-06-2009, 10:40 PM
IF any players took or are taken steroids(to enhance strength) in the NBA it would have to be Lebron James(Way to big when he was in highschool), and can't really name any others right now...don't feel like thinking right now

JordansBulls
08-06-2009, 10:41 PM
me and my friend got into a bit of a debate on whether or not NBA players currently use or in the past have used steroids? my friend thinks that players such as dwight howard, karl malone, lebron james, and even MICHAEL JORDAN

i was saying hes trippin but i jus wanted to see what u thought!

Guys like MJ and Malone got bigger over time from lifting weights.

DCSportsIsPain
08-06-2009, 10:42 PM
Steroids don't make anyone taller or give anyone more "hops" so I am going to say the NBA is the least likely of the major sports to have that issue.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2009, 10:51 PM
in 1991 when David Stern came up with the Dream team idea they dealt with Fiba and the Olympic comitee, they would only send Nba players to the competition if they would NOT pass doping tests, othewise Usa would go on sending Ncaa players.
Fiba and olympic comitee accepted it and signed the contract.

In 1996 Stern brought up the cntract again and forced them to extend that protection to Foreign players that played in Nba too.

So, what do you think about that?

Why would he force such a contract if the league was clean?

Apophis
08-06-2009, 10:53 PM
in 1991 when David Stern came up with the Dream team idea they dealt with Fiba and the Olympic comitee, they would only send Nba players to the competition if they would NOT pass doping tests, othewise Usa would go on sending Ncaa players.
Fiba and olympic comitee accepted it and signed the contract.

In 1996 Stern brought up the cntract again and forced them to extend that protection to Foreign players that played in Nba too.

So, what do you think about that?

Why would he force such a contract if the league was clean?

interesting.. I didnt know that...

ManRam
08-06-2009, 10:53 PM
in 1991 when David Stern came up with the Dream team idea they dealt with Fiba and the Olympic comitee, they would only send Nba players to the competition if they would NOT pass doping tests, othewise Usa would go on sending Ncaa players.
Fiba and olympic comitee accepted it and signed the contract.

In 1996 Stern brought up the cntract again and forced them to extend that protection to Foreign players that played in Nba too.

So, what do you think about that?

Why would he force such a contract if the league was clean?

I highly doubt the Olympic committee would be down with that. Do you have a link???

DCSportsIsPain
08-06-2009, 10:54 PM
in 1991 when David Stern came up with the Dream team idea they dealt with Fiba and the Olympic comitee, they would only send Nba players to the competition if they would NOT pass doping tests, othewise Usa would go on sending Ncaa players.
Fiba and olympic comitee accepted it and signed the contract.

In 1996 Stern brought up the cntract again and forced them to extend that protection to Foreign players that played in Nba too.

So, what do you think about that?

Why would he force such a contract if the league was clean?

Basketball players are far more likely to be on something like ephedrine or meth or something for weight control than to be on steroids. Nobody is saying they aren't on anything. Steroids just does not seem like it would be the most likely drug of choice.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2009, 10:55 PM
i would have to reseach because tis is oldolod news read on newspapers back in the day.


And olympic comitee acepeted because of the TONS of more money that would come from tv by having nba players instead of ncaa players.

ink
08-06-2009, 10:57 PM
me and my friend got into a bit of a debate on whether or not NBA players currently use or in the past have used steroids? my friend thinks that players such as dwight howard, karl malone, lebron james, and even MICHAEL JORDAN

i was saying hes trippin but i jus wanted to see what u thought!

Steroids were very common in other sports during the late 80s and early 90s. From then on it's perfectly reasonable to believe that any athlete could be taking PEDs. It's just a reality in sports. The athletes aren't stupid and there's too much money involved for them not to be tempted. The NBA's drug testing policies are the lamest in professional sport.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2009, 10:58 PM
Basketball players are far more likely to be on something like ephedrine or meth or something for weight control than to be on steroids. Nobody is saying they aren't on anything. Steroids just does not seem like it would be the most likely drug of choice.

in that i agree, but the point is they are not clear.

Anyway i wouldnt be sure about Lebron, Howard, BYnum or Even Gasol (go chek his pitures while he played in spain) not taking steroids.


on the original Dream team anyway there is only 1 player i think could be somhow supsicious.

The Mailman,


Jordan, Magic, Pipp etc had bodies or arms that ocld be get just by training, bt malones....

ink
08-06-2009, 10:59 PM
Basketball players are far more likely to be on something like ephedrine or meth or something for weight control than to be on steroids. Nobody is saying they aren't on anything. Steroids just does not seem like it would be the most likely drug of choice.

HGH would do just fine.

mark1125
08-06-2009, 11:02 PM
Just like MLB and NFL, there are NBA players on PED's. A blind eye is turned to it in the NBA and it's not considered a huge deal in the NFL.

I agree with whomever said earlier however that it is possible to be a freak athlete without roids.

Kyben36
08-06-2009, 11:14 PM
If there is one player to check its Lebron, nothing against him but he is a freak of nature body wise. 280, with that athletism. God Damn.

B.JenningsMVP
08-06-2009, 11:21 PM
wow..

ManRam
08-06-2009, 11:26 PM
Still really curious about hellcrooner's conspiracy theory. If anyone can find anything about it...I'll love you forever. I find that very hard to believe that the NBA bribed the Olympic committee (HUGE on testing) and FIBA to not test our athletes for PEDs.

That would be big time news if it was true...which is why I highly doubt it is. I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

nikefreek220
08-06-2009, 11:27 PM
The only players would be Ben Wallace, and LeBron James.

Wallace- he is a part time body builder, idk if any of you have seen "mens health" the magazine and he was on the cover a couple years ago, and he literally body builds.

LeBron- He played football, and i'm pretty sure he was exposed to steroids, in the weight rooms and stuff. I played High school football myself(i graduated in june) and i know there were atleast 10+ guys on roids.

DODGERS&LAKERS
08-06-2009, 11:30 PM
I think he's tripping. It's possible to be a freakish athlete without using steroids. I know the MLB has tarnished a lot of things, but I like to think these are the best athletes in the world, and them being freaks isn't because of unnatural reasons. The best of the best make it to the NBA...so to see guys who's bodies blow your mind shouldn't be terribly surprising.

I don't think there is much of a steroid problem at all in the NBA. It just doesn't help you as much as it would in baseball. Guys like Dwight and LeBron and Oden were man freaks way back in high school. They're just blessed.

No one has ever really been busted for HGH or anabolic steroids before in the NBA either, not that I'm aware of. So there isn't any real evidence. All speculation.

I'm not saying they were not blessed naturally, but we should not come to the conclusion they dont use steroids because they were big in high school. People on my baseball team were taking the juice in their sophomore year. Everybody knew that it got you big really fast. It helped us play better. And not to mention the girls going gaga over all the muscles. Steroids are every where. And I'm sure, even basketball players want to be stronger and recover quicker from injuries and be able to run and jump all day. My friend Gus, who played hoops in high school, took the juice as soon as he heard there would be college scouts going to one of their games. We should not put basketball players on a pedestal and think that they are above using anything that will make them better. And believe me, using steroids will make you better. I sadly know from experience

ManRam
08-06-2009, 11:34 PM
I'm not saying they were not blessed naturally, but we should not come to the conclusion they dont use steroids because they were big in high school. People on my baseball team were taking the juice in their sophomore year. Everybody knew that it got you big really fast. It helped us play better. And not to mention the girls going gaga over all the muscles. Steroids are every where. And I'm sure, even basketball players want to be stronger and recover quicker from injuries and be able to run and jump all day. My friend Gus, who played hoops in high school, took the juice as soon as he heard their would be college scouts going to one of their games. We should not put basketball players on a pedestal and think that they are above using anything that will make them better. And believe me, using steroids will make you better. I sadly know from experience

So a better option is to assume they are on steroids because they are big?? I beg to differ.

I understand the pessimism when it comes to baseball players...but we still definitely have to give NBA players the benefit of the doubt.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2009, 11:41 PM
http://www.basketconfidencial.com/?articulo/818

just use any translator

Hellcrooner
08-06-2009, 11:44 PM
I widh i could finde the 1991 newspaper where it was told and make a scan,

Anyway this contract between nba fiba and olympic comitee is no secret here in europe and is commented by tv commentators and press every time there is an olympics or world cup.

Im not surprised it has never been aired in Usa.

Kobe2324
08-06-2009, 11:55 PM
maybe big ben and karl malone...but i cant think of too many other athletes, maybe Lebron but even then i dont think

DODGERS&LAKERS
08-06-2009, 11:57 PM
So a better option is to assume they are on steroids because they are big?? I beg to differ.

I understand the pessimism when it comes to baseball players...but we still definitely have to give NBA players the benefit of the doubt.

I agree. I give everyone the benifit of doubt. Nobody is guilty in my eyes until they fail a drug test. Even baseball players. But I will never go as far to say that I doubt they are using steroids

MajorFloridaFan
08-06-2009, 11:57 PM
Just cuz they are big...shouldnt mean guilty...how about the smaller players getting bigger and more ripped instead of the obviously huge ones

Raps18-19 Champ
08-06-2009, 11:58 PM
It's called lifting weights.

asandhu23
08-07-2009, 12:00 AM
i would like to test carlos boozer...along with King James, Dwight Howard, Shaq
and deron williams....oh and david robinson

ManRam
08-07-2009, 12:03 AM
I agree. I give everyone the benifit of doubt. Nobody is guilty in my eyes until they fail a drug test. Even baseball players. But I will never go as far to say that I doubt they are using steroids

Oh...I have my doubts too. I'm not naive. I just don't like all this witch-hunting. "I think so-and-so used", "if anyone uses it's so-and-so"...I hate that. I understand why people are so suspicious (God damn Bud Selig), but it's not fair to just accuse players just because they are phenomenal athletes. It's the NBA. The best athletes in the world play there. It shouldn't be shocking that they are as freakish as they are. I definitely am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt...especially in the NBA where I think steroid use is 1/10000th as impactful as it is in baseball.

Hellcrooner
08-07-2009, 12:05 AM
doping exist in every sport sad but true

ther are somesports worst than others tough, i doubt basket has more than 1 guy from each 20 while in cylcing you have 19 dopsters out of 20 ant the other one is just taking a drug still not on the list.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-07-2009, 12:05 AM
No one major has really tested positive.

The last big drug fail was Chris Anderson.

Stars use their skills and not steroids.

MajorFloridaFan
08-07-2009, 12:08 AM
ID like to get me some steroids and HGH treatment

clutchski
08-07-2009, 12:12 AM
There was a thread a while back (I think it was shut down) that compared Yi Jianlian pictures and questioned steroid use. I thought it was pretty iffy but the pic differences made him looked JACKED.

MoBASS
08-07-2009, 12:15 AM
Steroids don't make anyone taller or give anyone more "hops" so I am going to say the NBA is the least likely of the major sports to have that issue.

Steroids can give you hops.

Hops (force) = mass x velocity. Velocity is hard to work on in the gym, but increased mass comes from heavy lifting -> steroids.

You guys need to get real. With so much money at stake, at LEAST 15% of NBA players are on HGH.

Hellcrooner
08-07-2009, 12:15 AM
yep, im may be the greatest gasol fan here but i have little doubt he has received some treatment just look at a barcelona picture and then a grizzlies two years later pic he i much bigger and then look at last years lakers pic he is even more big.

i wouldnt be shocked if he tested positive.

MajorFloridaFan
08-07-2009, 12:17 AM
Lebron is either a Spartan at heart or a Roider

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 12:21 AM
Still really curious about hellcrooner's conspiracy theory. If anyone can find anything about it...I'll love you forever. I find that very hard to believe that the NBA bribed the Olympic committee (HUGE on testing) and FIBA to not test our athletes for PEDs.

That would be big time news if it was true...which is why I highly doubt it is. I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

Even they turn a blind eye on a lot of things. Last summer Olympics some Chinese players were being flagged (Can't name specific ones, but it was a topic on the Fan590 radio program) but they still competed.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 12:22 AM
And oh yea, is there PEDs around NBA? without a doubt in my mind.

asmarks18
08-07-2009, 12:31 AM
I would not be suprised one bit if Lebron and Dwight were on roids. Especially LeBron. His arm's are as big as John Cena's

pauljames
08-07-2009, 12:37 AM
theres a lot of people in the nba that are on hgh for sure. i bet 20% of them are. You cant get such significant gaigns in one offseason without juicing.

The Prodigy
08-07-2009, 12:38 AM
It's called lifting weights.

It has to be more for certain players. I'm in High school and my close friend basically works out for life and does wrestling and football and is all state in both I think (football he definitely is) and he isn't close to as big as Lebron was when Lebron was a Junior in HS. Also he works out from 2:45 till like 6 something. Everyday, 6 days a week.

ink
08-07-2009, 12:59 AM
Steroids can give you hops.

Hops (force) = mass x velocity. Velocity is hard to work on in the gym, but increased mass comes from heavy lifting -> steroids.

You guys need to get real. With so much money at stake, at LEAST 15% of NBA players are on HGH.

Exactly. A lot of the denials in this thread sound really familiar. About 5 years ago everybody said exactly the same thing about baseball. Face it, every sport has equal access and equal reason to use performance enhancing drugs. The NBA has just had historically pathetic testing ...

Chacarron
08-07-2009, 01:01 AM
LEBRON! steroids.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 01:35 AM
It has to be more for certain players. I'm in High school and my close friend basically works out for life and does wrestling and football and is all state in both I think (football he definitely is) and he isn't close to as big as Lebron was when Lebron was a Junior in HS. Also he works out from 2:45 till like 6 something. Everyday, 6 days a week.

There's more to working out than JUST lifting weights. If you do your homework you can take advantage of just about every human condition possible.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 01:38 AM
Steroids can give you hops.

Hops (force) = mass x velocity. Velocity is hard to work on in the gym, but increased mass comes from heavy lifting -> steroids.

You guys need to get real. With so much money at stake, at LEAST 15% of NBA players are on HGH.

But you do know there's way more to hopping physics/ergonomics than just mass and velocity...

Vidball
08-07-2009, 01:43 AM
Still really curious about hellcrooner's conspiracy theory. If anyone can find anything about it...I'll love you forever. I find that very hard to believe that the NBA bribed the Olympic committee (HUGE on testing) and FIBA to not test our athletes for PEDs.

That would be big time news if it was true...which is why I highly doubt it is. I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

Here you go...it is B.S. We are and always will be drug tested.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-33-182/Team-USA--Yes--We-re-Drug-Tested.html?post=true


Team USA: Yes, We're Drug Tested

August 15, 2008 9:57 AM

A few days ago, the bullets referenced an article on drug testing that wondered aloud what would happen to a player's eligibility to play for their home league if they failed drug test while playing in the Olympics.

A TrueHoop reader responded by e-mailing a link to this wikipedia article, which says:

In 1989, FIBA, international basketball's governing body, allowed professional NBA players to participate in the Olympics for the first time. But in order for this to happen, FIBA agreed not to perform any anti-doping controls, which is still the case.

Really? Could some of the highest profile athletes be exempt from that rigorous testing regimen we have heard so much about? (If that's true, who negotiated for that? That was a major thing to ask for. Why was that important?)

I sent the excerpt above to USA Basketball spokesperson Craig Miller, who is with the team in Beijing.

"This is not true," he writes.

"The only thing I think they mean is that originally NBA players were not subject to out-of-competition testing. I believe, since I got here in 1990, that all of our teams have been tested in competition. I believe since around 1998 we have also been subject to out-of-competition testing. We have been 100 percent fully compliant with USADA and WADA. In fact, last night [after the Greece game] we had a member of our team tested."

The United States Anti-Doping Agency has a website where you can actually look up which athletes they have tested. It shows, for instance, that Kobe Bryant has been tested in 2008. the World Anti-Doping Agency website does not, as far as I can tell, have the same kind of public database.)

I asked Miller about the out-of-competition testing. Does that mean they can show up at Kobe Bryant's house at any old time? "I'm not well versed in this," he explains, "other than knowing we are tested out of season, which means they can and do show up at practices and homes and we have to complete the required paperwork."

Miller also explains the timing of the in-competition tests: "We usually have a player or two tested randomly in the first few games, then more consistently in quarterfinals, semis, and finals. The testing is random, in that the players are determined by pulling numbers from a bag towards the end of each game."

Anyone know how to update that Wikipedia article?

Draco
08-07-2009, 01:45 AM
I don't get the competitive advantage a player might think he's getting using steriods as it applies to the game of basketball.

beans439
08-07-2009, 01:46 AM
Steroids don't make anyone taller or give anyone more "hops" so I am going to say the NBA is the least likely of the major sports to have that issue.

talller...no. but hops...yes. steroids make you stronger and more explosive. they dont necessarily make you bigger, it all depends on what kind of training your doing. if your doing plyo or strength training type workouts, you may not get significantly bigger, but you will get stronger.

The Prodigy
08-07-2009, 01:47 AM
There's more to working out than JUST lifting weights. If you do your homework you can take advantage of just about every human condition possible.

I'm not talking just about lifting weights. He does all that conditioning that football, basketball, and wrestlers do. I was just hypothesizing on both their situations in High school not now and Lebron couldn't have been doin much more or any more at all than my friend is doing now.

Zefflin
08-07-2009, 02:57 AM
talller...no. but hops...yes.

Oh yea, lots of my buddies took "the juice" and the ones that I play bball with...mother ****ers can suddenly do reverse dunks and ****. Almost tempted me to do it. Almost.

*Superman*
08-07-2009, 02:59 AM
^ Don't do it!!

Zefflin
08-07-2009, 03:15 AM
Nah c'mon you know I wouldn't, thanks for looking out for me Superman but I know better then that. No chemical drugs for me, strictly pot and fungus.

Bones10564
08-07-2009, 04:04 AM
MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, & PGA - I wouldn't put it passed ANY sport or player (even the special olympics LOL)...

asandhu23
08-07-2009, 04:06 AM
Oh yea, lots of my buddies took "the juice" and the ones that I play bball with...mother ****ers can suddenly do reverse dunks and ****. Almost tempted me to do it. Almost.

don't do it, man...you dont want to end up with tiny balls

blazerman
08-07-2009, 04:16 AM
in 1991 when David Stern came up with the Dream team idea they dealt with Fiba and the Olympic comitee, they would only send Nba players to the competition if they would NOT pass doping tests, othewise Usa would go on sending Ncaa players.
Fiba and olympic comitee accepted it and signed the contract.

In 1996 Stern brought up the cntract again and forced them to extend that protection to Foreign players that played in Nba too.

So, what do you think about that?

Why would he force such a contract if the league was clean?

Because I think Stern is a drunk, just like you.(just messing with ya)

Everytime I read your threads I feel like Im slurring with your grammer.

blazerman
08-07-2009, 04:18 AM
don't do it, man...you dont want to end up with tiny balls

He probably has tiny balls to begin with!

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 04:22 AM
of course there are roids in the nba, like in every other pro sport as well. its a business where very much money is involved, and people also need to stop thinking that only the top players take it, because its just as common or even more so among the players that fight to even get into the league or need to stay in it.
saying that roids have no benefits for the game of basketball is pure nonsense, and kind of ignorant/naive/wishful thinking. why would sprinters take roids? the mass should make em slowlier. no it doesnt, it makes em faster, the same goes for the nba. also, there are not only anabolic steroids but also androgenic steroids to enhance your performance, you dont need to look like a probodybuilder after being on the juice,the ones who say that have simply no idea of what theyre talking about.
and if u have doctors and a medical team u can minimize the risks of the roids, depending on the roid u hardly will get any problems at all.
the biggest side effect might be the enhanced danger of losing your hairs at an earlier age, now why do so many bball players like vc or marbs or even jordan lose their hairs in their 20s or young 30s?
also those who cry cheaters should stfu it still takes a whole lot of hard work and almost everybodys on it, so it makes no difference.

blazerman
08-07-2009, 04:24 AM
MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, & PGA - I wouldn't put it passed ANY sport or player (even the special olympics LOL)...

I was laughing so hard after reading "even the special Olympics" that I typed in the Ringer in my title space(I was thinking about the movie and Jeffy)haha, I think I'll leave it.

That was the funniest quote ever. Oh god that's hilarious.

asandhu23
08-07-2009, 04:31 AM
He probably has tiny balls to begin with!

:eyebrow:

BaustinSali08
08-07-2009, 04:35 AM
HGH's and Steroids would destroy a NBA player's career. You can't run at all on steroids. Most baseball players can get away with it, physically, because they either play first base or DH's. There isn't a lot of running in the MLB besides on base, but in the NBA, I would think there would be terrible cramping issues and tendons would snap more easily. I don't see it.

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 04:39 AM
I don't get the competitive advantage a player might think he's getting using steriods as it applies to the game of basketball.

how about becoming faster, jumping higher, being able to train more, reacting quicker,becoming stronger, getting heavier for the battles in the paint, becoming more explosive, not losing your weight during an 82 game season with many flights and differing timezones therefore much stress on your body and prolly no regular meals, losing fat in the offseason, etc. i think one or 2 of these things might be interesting for nba players.

Draco
08-07-2009, 05:58 AM
how about becoming faster, jumping higher, being able to train more, reacting quicker,becoming stronger, getting heavier for the battles in the paint, becoming more explosive, not losing your weight during an 82 game season with many flights and differing timezones therefore much stress on your body and prolly no regular meals, losing fat in the offseason, etc. i think one or 2 of these things might be interesting for nba players.

And NBA players can achieve all of that - inasmuch as they're genetically cabable - without steroids. I can understand this position as it applies to weight lifting, baseball, maybe even track.. where the competition is to lift a certain amount of weight, or increase your number of homers, or perhaps make you fast enough to beat the other guy by a second or miliseconds..

But in basketball, I don't see how it matters very much.

I wonder if Joakim Noah actually thinks he's going to get a competitive advantage over Dwight Howard by taking steroids. Maybe it'll make him fast enough or strong enough to handle Howard in the paint. :rolleyes:

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 10:59 AM
talller...no. but hops...yes. steroids make you stronger and more explosive. they dont necessarily make you bigger, it all depends on what kind of training your doing. if your doing plyo or strength training type workouts, you may not get significantly bigger, but you will get stronger.

Very hard to prove.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 11:00 AM
I don't get the competitive advantage a player might think he's getting using steriods as it applies to the game of basketball.

One thing it definitely does is help you stay consistent all year long. Near end of the season where you fatigue out faster, you definitely wont with steroids.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 11:04 AM
how about becoming faster, jumping higher, being able to train more, reacting quicker,becoming stronger, getting heavier for the battles in the paint, becoming more explosive, not losing your weight during an 82 game season with many flights and differing timezones therefore much stress on your body and prolly no regular meals, losing fat in the offseason, etc. i think one or 2 of these things might be interesting for nba players.

Again, Very hard to prove.

arkanian215
08-07-2009, 11:14 AM
http://netsarescorching.com/2009/08/01/yi-looksdifferentin-a-good-way/


Last Year
http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Detroit+Pistons+v+New+Jersey+Nets+2c6QIAq2I9ll.jpg
This summer
http://i29.tinypic.com/29hb9s.jpg

Ironman5219
08-07-2009, 11:32 AM
I'm not nieve (Spelling??) to say that it does go one in the NBA ( Rashard Lewis ) But I will agree that the NBA is the least likely of the major 3 to have PED's just because of the nature of the game. I would chick the big centers and PFs where strength matters.

Mr Wonderful
08-07-2009, 11:33 AM
in 1991 when David Stern came up with the Dream team idea they dealt with Fiba and the Olympic comitee, they would only send Nba players to the competition if they would NOT pass doping tests, othewise Usa would go on sending Ncaa players.
Fiba and olympic comitee accepted it and signed the contract.

In 1996 Stern brought up the cntract again and forced them to extend that protection to Foreign players that played in Nba too.

So, what do you think about that?

Why would he force such a contract if the league was clean?

I think the "contract" back then was more about coke, weed, and other illegal narcotics and not about roids.

arkanian215
08-07-2009, 12:01 PM
it's not just strength and quickness. it's also recovery time and maintaining your physique longer. people assume it's about strength and quickness because of baseball and the olympics. i wouldn't put it past them.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 12:09 PM
I'm not nieve (Spelling??) to say that it does go one in the NBA ( Rashard Lewis ) But I will agree that the NBA is the least likely of the major 3 to have PED's just because of the nature of the game. I would chick the big centers and PFs where strength matters.

the Nature of the Game is to have HIGH endurance; which steroids can provide.

THiiRTYONE
08-07-2009, 12:10 PM
LOL the players that maybe used steriods are probably those that came from third stringer to all of a sudden a star, which is rare :P

DODGERS&LAKERS
08-07-2009, 01:01 PM
Again, Very hard to prove.

Its not very hard to prove. Just look at all the athletes that take them. The best sprinters took them. The body builders took them. The best baseball players over the past 3 decades have taken them. Football players take them. They are not taking the stuff just for fun. They are not risking being fined millions of dollars and being embarrassed just for the heck of it. That stuff really works.

I'm embarrassed to admit this. But I have used them. I'm not telling you guys this so you can go and use them but, that stuff is amazing. I am only 5'9. I was close to 200 pounds. But I was never really into weight lifting. I would do it once in a while but was never really strong. Or not as strong as my weight lifting partner. Plus I have a really bad shoulder that gets muscle fatigue after about 10 minutes of working out. I couldn't even lift 20 pounds above my head. So I heard that steroids some how make you feel no pain. So I tried them. It gives you so much energy its unbelievable. I wanted to work out all day. I lost 30 pounds of fat in one month. I had no pain in my shoulder anymore. I went from benching at the most, 180 pounds, to benching 310 with no problem. All that in a month!. And I did not get big and bulky. I got skinny with lots of muscle tone. When I went to play sports, I felt I could run all day long. I was better at baseball, basketball and football, than I ever had been before. That stuff works miracles.

But their are side affects. I would lose my temper really fast. And I'm one of the easiest going people out there. And one time, about 20 minutes into having sex my with wife who was my gf at the time, I started to go limp. And that has never happened before or since. So at that point I had to cut that stuff out.

Steroids is a performance enhancer. It just enhances my performance in a field that is not important to me. And it hurts you where its most important to perform, in the sack. So I'm telling you, don't take them! Unless you want to be a pro athlete. Cause it seems like thats the only way to get ahead nowadays.

Glenfidish
08-07-2009, 01:40 PM
of course some are on it. Just like some smoke dope and others drink beer. Its always going to be there. If there not getting tested at the nba level then thats a serious problem. Besides its ironic that lebron has so much acne on his face and back. Last time i checked that was one of the symptoms. Im not saying he's doing it, but its a big big possibility. I wouldnt be surprised. Just like mcdyess is huge one day then looks maga or skinny the next. cmon who are you kidding.:cool:

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 02:07 PM
Its not very hard to prove. Just look at all the athletes that take them. The best sprinters took them. The body builders took them. The best baseball players over the past 3 decades have taken them. Football players take them. They are not taking the stuff just for fun. They are not risking being fined millions of dollars and being embarrassed just for the heck of it. That stuff really works.

I'm embarrassed to admit this. But I have used them. I'm not telling you guys this so you can go and use them but, that stuff is amazing. I am only 5'9. I was close to 200 pounds. But I was never really into weight lifting. I would do it once in a while but was never really strong. Or not as strong as my weight lifting partner. Plus I have a really bad shoulder that gets muscle fatigue after about 10 minutes of working out. I couldn't even lift 20 pounds above my head. So I heard that steroids some how make you feel no pain. So I tried them. It gives you so much energy its unbelievable. I wanted to work out all day. I lost 30 pounds of fat in one month. I had no pain in my shoulder anymore. I went from benching at the most, 180 pounds, to benching 310 with no problem. All that in a month!. And I did not get big and bulky. I got skinny with lots of muscle tone. When I went to play sports, I felt I could run all day long. I was better at baseball, basketball and football, than I ever had been before. That stuff works miracles.

But their are side affects. I would lose my temper really fast. And I'm one of the easiest going people out there. And one time, about 20 minutes into having sex my with wife who was my gf at the time, I started to go limp. And that has never happened before or since. So at that point I had to cut that stuff out.

Steroids is a performance enhancer. It just enhances my performance in a field that is not important to me. And it hurts you where its most important to perform, in the sack. So I'm telling you, don't take them! Unless you want to be a pro athlete. Cause it seems like thats the only way to get ahead nowadays.

Correlation does _not_ mean causation. To increase your muscle mass is one thing to say that it does/doesn't improve your game is another.

It's your personal choice.

It recovers fatigue faster.

To the odd person who did not entirely dedicate your life to it, of course it will. It's harder to prove at the elite level where almost everybody is on the same playing field. They have what it takes inside them to be there to improve from that is beyond what PEDs can or cannot do. One thing for certain is, that PEDs will ALLOW you to be consistent the entire year.

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 02:11 PM
Again, Very hard to prove.

well the quicker reaction wont come from steroids but from amphetamines so youre right in that one, but jumping higher can be reached through usage of steroids, also because they will allow you to train more frequently and your body will recover much quicker.

Unruly Fan
08-07-2009, 02:24 PM
IF any players took or are taken steroids(to enhance strength) in the NBA it would have to be Lebron James(Way to big when he was in highschool), and can't really name any others right now...don't feel like thinking right nowThe last few lines made me lol. Thanks.

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 02:27 PM
And NBA players can achieve all of that - inasmuch as they're genetically cabable - without steroids. I can understand this position as it applies to weight lifting, baseball, maybe even track.. where the competition is to lift a certain amount of weight, or increase your number of homers, or perhaps make you fast enough to beat the other guy by a second or miliseconds..

But in basketball, I don't see how it matters very much.

I wonder if Joakim Noah actually thinks he's going to get a competitive advantage over Dwight Howard by taking steroids. Maybe it'll make him fast enough or strong enough to handle Howard in the paint. :rolleyes:

im sorry but youre post doesnt make any sense to me.
of course NBA player can achieve all of that as much as theyre genetically capable,but the same goes for baseball players, bodybuilder, football player and everybody else.
the goal in steroids is going beyond your genetical limitations.

last time i watched the nba, athleticism was a very important asset and players that had an advantage in speed or explosiveness had a big advantage when it comes to creating shots, i could name guys like wade,ai,lebron tony parker and others there.
and your example is not fair because you didnt take 2 players of comparable talent, because you still need that steroids or not.

well taking steroids and being stronger and faster might in fact help noah to prevent 1 or 2 baskets from dwight howard which are 2 or 4 points.

but ill give you another example: take 2 players who both went undrafted. both sfs, comparable skillset. now they compete in summer league in order to get a deal in the nba, but the team has already a pretty fix roster so its very unlikely that they take a chance on both of them. now they would want to get every advantage they can get in order to make it to the league. steroids are the first option.(although i doubt that this would happen at this point because most players you see are on roids or other stuff since hs).

D-Will4Prez
08-07-2009, 02:29 PM
Rashard Lewis didn't take steroids...all the test showed was that his testosterone levels were high...He probably just took some dietary supliment or something without checking to see what was in it >.>

masalex1205
08-07-2009, 02:35 PM
nothing would suprise me at this point. If you don't think that there is a strong possiblity that there are at least a minority of players who could be using steroids (HGH, etc. Steroids is such a general term) then you haven't been watching sports the last 10 years. I laugh when I see people make definitive statements about NBA players not being on steroids

Draco
08-07-2009, 02:38 PM
im sorry but youre post doesnt make any sense to me.
of course NBA player can achieve all of that as much as theyre genetically capable,but the same goes for baseball players, bodybuilder, football player and everybody else.
the goal in steroids is going beyond your genetical limitations.

To what end? Having a smaller pee pee and looking like Ahnold?


well taking steroids and being stronger and faster might in fact help noah to prevent 1 or 2 baskets from dwight howard which are 2 or 4 points.

That looks like an opinion if you ask me.



but ill give you another example: take 2 players who both went undrafted. both sfs, comparable skillset. now they compete in summer league in order to get a deal in the nba, but the team has already a pretty fix roster so its very unlikely that they take a chance on both of them. now they would want to get every advantage they can get in order to make it to the league. steroids are the first option.(although i doubt that this would happen at this point because most players you see are on roids or other stuff since hs).

You've explained why a player might think he's getting an advantage you haven't proven that he actually will get an advantage. There are countless stories of freak athletes who went out of the league as quickly as they came in. While talent might not be as important as technique and sheer strength when it comes to weight lifting. And talent might not be as important as technique and sheer speed when it comes to track.. Talent is definately important when you're talking basketball.

Take a look at Austin Daye.. you think that kid was juicing in summer league?

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 02:46 PM
You've explained why a player might think he's getting an advantage you haven't proven that he actually will get an advantage. There are countless stories of freak athletes who went out of the league as quickly as they came in. While talent might not be as important as technique and sheer strength when it comes to weight lifting. And talent might not be as important as technique and sheer speed when it comes to track.. Talent is definately important when you're talking basketball.

Take a look at Austin Daye.. you think that kid was juicing in summer league?

please reread my posts, i dont have the feeling that you understood one word of the things i said, nor do i think that you know how steroids/hgh/amphetamines work.
i dont have a desire to write the same stuff back and forth time after time.
i never said that sheer athleticism will get you anywhere, maybe on the defensive end a la ben wallace, but i never said that steroids are a filler for talent. they just enhance the talent that is there and take you beyond levels that you could reach naturally. a juicing lebron will have advantages over a natural lebron, a kobe on roids will be more lethal than a natural kobe ...
if there is a certain talent, you will maximize it with steroid use or if your talent is a little less it might give you an advantage over someone with a little more talent who doesnt juice.

and just because hes lanky it doesnt mean that daye never took any steroids, not every steroid is anabolic.

arkanian215
08-07-2009, 02:50 PM
im pretty sure any dietary supplement that can produce those results has been banned by the league.

D-Will4Prez
08-07-2009, 02:55 PM
me and my friend got into a bit of a debate on whether or not NBA players currently use or in the past have used steroids? my friend thinks that players such as dwight howard, karl malone, lebron james, and even MICHAEL JORDAN

i was saying hes trippin but i jus wanted to see what u thought!
If you look at people who are ripped via steroids next to those who are ripped without, you can tell the difference. You can pretty much tell Karl Malone (see sig) did not take steroids...those are all natural baby :)

Draco
08-07-2009, 02:57 PM
please reread my posts, i dont have the feeling that you understood one word of the things i said, nor do i think that you know how steroids/hgh/amphetamines work.
i dont have a desire to write the same stuff back and forth time after time.
i never said that sheer athleticism will get you anywhere, maybe on the defensive end a la ben wallace, but i never said that steroids are a filler for talent. they just enhance the talent that is there and take you beyond levels that you could reach naturally. a juicing lebron will have advantages over a natural lebron, a kobe on roids will be more lethal than a natural kobe ...
if there is a certain talent, you will maximize it with steroid use or if your talent is a little less it might give you an advantage over someone with a little more talent who doesnt juice.

and just because hes lanky it doesnt mean that daye never took any steroids, not every steroid is anabolic.

I did in fact (notice the correct use of the word here) read your posts and I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think you've proved that someone like Noah can look forward to preventing a couple extra baskets if he takes steroids. The fact (again, notice the correct use of the word here) that there are so many players in the league of varying strength and speed indicates that these players are reliant on something else: talent. The same is not so much the case in other sports where I can better understand the argument for using steroids.

So it's a "perforance enhancer" .. and so is good ole fashioned training without the use of steroids. I understand how the nintendo generation might think that moving the little guy into the power up pill makes him win the game but I don't think that's how basketball works.

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 03:00 PM
If you look at people who are ripped via steroids next to those who are ripped without, you can tell the difference. You can pretty much tell Karl Malone (see sig) did not take steroids...those are all natural baby :)

now you have my attention. where or how do you see a difference between steroid usage or "natural muscles".
you can see that if someone took synthol but there is no way to tell if malones muscles are natural or from juice.(considering the 82 game schedule and how he kept his form throughout his active seasons id say they are from juice, but nobody can tell for sure)

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 03:11 PM
I did in fact (notice the correct use of the word here) read your posts and I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think you've proved that someone like Noah can look forward to preventing a couple extra baskets if he takes steroids. The fact (again, notice the correct use of the word here) that there are so many players in the league of varying strength and speed indicates that these players are reliant on something else: talent. The same is not so much the case in other sports where I can better understand the argument for using steroids.

So it's a "perforance enhancer" .. and so is good ole fashioned training without the use of steroids. I understand how the nintendo generation might think that moving the little guy into the power up pill makes him win the game but I don't think that's how basketball works.

did u notice the might in front of the maybe mr grammar nazi?
and im sorry you in fact(notice the correct use of the word here) still failed to adress an answer to anything that i said in my previous posts and argued besides the point.
if u call them performance enhancer or steroids makes no difference and im sorry that youre ignorant and have no idea of how training or steroids affect your body and performance.
maybe you should do a little research on that before arguing on such a topic and take a second look at the nba and how it became more and more athletic in the course of time and ask yourself the question if athleticism might bring new aspects to a players game.
until youve done that i see no sense in arguing with you as you fail to see reality and rather argue about grammar than anything relevant to the topic.

Draco
08-07-2009, 03:30 PM
did u notice the might in front of the maybe mr grammar nazi?
and im sorry you in fact(notice the correct use of the word here) still failed to adress an answer to anything that i said in my previous posts and argued besides the point.
if u call them performance enhancer or steroids makes no difference and im sorry that youre ignorant and have no idea of how training or steroids affect your body and performance.
maybe you should do a little research on that before arguing on such a topic and take a second look at the nba and how it became more and more athletic in the course of time and ask yourself the question if athleticism might bring new aspects to a players game.
until youve done that i see no sense in arguing with you as you fail to see reality and rather argue about grammar than anything relevant to the topic.

:bla:

I'm sorry you're the one making the lame, baseless accusation :rolleyes:

I'm sorry that you can't prove Noah would prevent an extra couple of baskets by taking steroids.

I'm sorry you're passing off your opinion as fact.

ttam68
08-07-2009, 04:13 PM
I did in fact (notice the correct use of the word here) read your posts and I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think you've proved that someone like Noah can look forward to preventing a couple extra baskets if he takes steroids. The fact (again, notice the correct use of the word here) that there are so many players in the league of varying strength and speed indicates that these players are reliant on something else: talent. The same is not so much the case in other sports where I can better understand the argument for using steroids.

So it's a "perforance enhancer" .. and so is good ole fashioned training without the use of steroids. I understand how the nintendo generation might think that moving the little guy into the power up pill makes him win the game but I don't think that's how basketball works.

Calling someone a child isn't an automatic win on the internet.

Yes, to succeed in the NBA you need a lot of talent. But, wouldn't a player who already has marginal talent be improved if he could pair that talent with Malone's strength or AI's speed?

Take Austin Daye for example: He has tons of talent and the potential to be a great player. But, if he doesn't bulk up a little bit he'll not only be a huge injury risk, he'll never reach his potential.

If you can have Austin Daye that can run a little faster and battle for rebounds underneath or Austin Daye with the body of a 12 year old girl, I think you'd probably prefer the stronger version.

And yes, he could improve by simply working out, but steroids enable you to work out far more frequently than a natural body could and they enable you to yield return that you may not have achieved on your own.

Draco
08-07-2009, 04:22 PM
Calling someone a child isn't an automatic win on the internet.

Then assuming you're a child you should win a lot. Whatever that means. :rolleyes:



Yes, to succeed in the NBA you need a lot of talent. But, wouldn't a player who already has marginal talent be improved if he could pair that talent with Malone's strength or AI's speed?

Probably not. As I've already posted there are plenty of examples of players who were freak athletes (read: super strong, super quick, etc) who went out of the league as quickly as they came in.



Take Austin Daye for example: He has tons of talent and the potential to be a great player. But, if he doesn't bulk up a little bit he'll not only be a huge injury risk, he'll never reach his potential.

You don't need steroids to bulk up.



If you can have Austin Daye that can run a little faster and battle for rebounds underneath or Austin Daye with the body of a 12 year old girl, I think you'd probably prefer the stronger version.

Sounds good to me.



And yes, he could improve by simply working out, but steroids enable you to work out far more frequently than a natural body could and they enable you to yield return that you may not have achieved on your own.

An overstated opinion. I've known plenty of people (and am an example myself) who can do strenuous work outs for 8 + hours total/per day at the gym without the use of steroids.

Draco
08-07-2009, 04:26 PM
nothing would suprise me at this point. If you don't think that there is a strong possiblity that there are at least a minority of players who could be using steroids (HGH, etc. Steroids is such a general term) then you haven't been watching sports the last 10 years. I laugh when I see people make definitive statements about NBA players not being on steroids

Was there a person who made a definitive statement about NBA players not being on steroids in this thread? Sure wasn't me. Is it possible? Sure. Is it probable? I don't think so.

magichatnumber9
08-07-2009, 04:28 PM
This is a non issue in the NBA. They test for the crap so I don't care.

ttam68
08-07-2009, 04:30 PM
Probably not. As I've already posted there are plenty of examples of players who were freak athletes (read: super strong, super quick, etc) who went out of the league as quickly as they came in.

You don't need steroids to bulk up.

An overstated opinion. I've known plenty of people (and am an example myself) who can do strenuous work outs for 8 + hours total/per day at the gym without the use of steroids.

You're missing the point. Not everyone can naturally put on muscle and recover quickly, steroids can enable you to do that. And no one's claiming that some random guy can get jacked off roids and enter the NBA. The point is, the guy thats already in the league can get jacked off roids and add another dimension to his game.

A guy that benches 150 isn't going to succeed at center. He has two options:

1. The cocky Draco way that he's so awesome and can naturally put on muscle over a few months and everyone can cheer.

2. He can take a drug that enables him to work out 12 hours a day, everyday and build the body he needs in weeks.

This is all hypothetical, but to deny that stronger and more athletic guys succeed more in the NBA is ridiculous. Obviously a strong guy with no talent is garbage, but look at the bodies of Lebron or Dwight and tell me that strength and endurance doesn't matter in the NBA.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-07-2009, 04:31 PM
It has to be more for certain players. I'm in High school and my close friend basically works out for life and does wrestling and football and is all state in both I think (football he definitely is) and he isn't close to as big as Lebron was when Lebron was a Junior in HS. Also he works out from 2:45 till like 6 something. Everyday, 6 days a week.

People are built different ways.

Like how Deron Wlliams is a tank compared to other PG's because he has big built.

arkanian215
08-07-2009, 04:32 PM
there is no way to tell by the naked eye whether someone has juiced or not.

arkanian215
08-07-2009, 04:33 PM
baseball also tests for it... do you care about steroids in baseball?

*Superman*
08-07-2009, 04:35 PM
This is still going on.

JordansBulls
08-07-2009, 04:38 PM
Steroids helps for baseball and football but not basketball where you have to be quicker and more agile.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-07-2009, 04:41 PM
I swear the only clean guy in baseball is Albert Pujols.

kidfury
08-07-2009, 04:49 PM
The freaks of nature that are born with perfect genes may not take steroids. But it's naive to say steroids are not in the nba. The fringe players that are clamoring for just a spot on the bench for the nba minimum are likely willing to do anything to get that contract. Keep in mind nba minimum is a huge pay day to most normal folks. If it was a matter of taking care of your family, wouldn't you take the juice?

Draco
08-07-2009, 04:53 PM
You're missing the point. Not everyone can naturally put on muscle and recover quickly, steroids can enable you to do that. And no one's claiming that some random guy can get jacked off roids and enter the NBA. The point is, the guy thats already in the league can get jacked off roids and add another dimension to his game.

That's not a very good point. How about defining, "dimension to his game."

In baseball and in terms of home runs made; because the factor steroids affects is only in how much force a player can put behind the bat the result is apparent. Other than that, a player only has control over his teqnique.. and then it's up to the pitcher to throw a sufficiently fast pitch.

In basketball you can rebound by having knowledge of where to be on the court. Rodman was pretty good with this. You can rebound by using finesse rather than strength; Chris Bosh. You can rebound by using force rather than finesse; Shaq. In other words, if you were to use steroids the payoff isn't apparent. And people do what works and what they can see would work.


A guy that benches 150 isn't going to succeed at center. He has two options:

1. The cocky Draco way that he's so awesome and can naturally put on muscle over a few months and everyone can cheer.

2. He can take a drug that enables him to work out 12 hours a day, everyday and build the body he needs in weeks.

Or maybe that guy wasn't meant to be a center in the NBA. :rolleyes:

Not meaning to toot my own horn but if you eat right, sleep right, hydrate and have a disciplined approach to working out, and have plenty of time to do it you should be Ok without the use of steroids. Not everyone takes the easy path in life. It took me 4 months to gain 30 pounds of muscle while I was in Iraq... and 4 months to lose it when I got back to the states and re-entered my normal life.

Edit: I did spend hundreds on protein supplements.



This is all hypothetical, but to deny that stronger and more athletic guys succeed more in the NBA is ridiculous. Obviously a strong guy with no talent is garbage, but look at the bodies of Lebron or Dwight and tell me that strength and endurance doesn't matter in the NBA.

All things being equal the more athletic guys probably do succeed more. Talent isn't equal among the players my friend.

Hellcrooner
08-07-2009, 05:07 PM
dont know wy eople 9s focusing only on roids when there are like 40 drugs to enhnce performance.

Hellcrooner
08-07-2009, 05:08 PM
and nba fines are a jjoke

if a nba player is caught doing pot he gets a some games suspensions, second one some mroe days, third a year .

outof here you test positive in pot and you got a two year ban.

Pornstar86
08-07-2009, 05:14 PM
i understand the skepticism about people who have gotten bigger since highschool or since their rookie year, but you guys have to also realize that the NBA does have some of the most talented athletes in the world, and also has the money to have some of the most sophisticated gyms and grueling workouts in the world.....the difference between a highschool gym and the Cavs gym is probably pretty significant...also, some people just have an easier time gaining muscle than others.....when i started playing baseball in highschool, i had never lifted weights before...i gained almost 25 pounds my first year, and went from benching 155 to 235...no steroids (fear of needles), just a strict workout regime, diet, protein and creatine..i was gaining muscle faster than almost everyone on the team even though we worked out together and just as hard

Pornstar86
08-07-2009, 05:21 PM
Steroids helps for baseball and football but not basketball where you have to be quicker and more agile.

its a misconception the roids make you big and slow....steroids make muscles not only stronger, but heal quicker, give you increased stamina, boost immune system...if you workout to be long and lean, steroids will make you long and lean, but in a shorter period of time...if you take steroids and curl a 20 pound dumbbell 30 times, your not going to look like Arnold....you're going to have increasedendurance in your arms, and be completely ripped, not huge

Sly Guy
08-07-2009, 05:27 PM
I'll say the same thing I said in a thread a while back.

Anyone who believes any league of professional athletes is completely clean has his head in the sand. There is way too much money at stake. Basketball is every bit as dirty as Baseball, or the Olympics.

rjvacad
08-07-2009, 05:30 PM
I swear the only clean guy in baseball is Albert Pujols.

LOL watch him be on the list. How can you tell if he has or hasn't?

Raps18-19 Champ
08-07-2009, 05:51 PM
LOL watch him be on the list. How can you tell if he has or hasn't?

Pujols isn't a *******. He is the nicest guy out there. I don't think he would want to ruin that.

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 05:56 PM
:bla:

I'm sorry you're the one making the lame, baseless accusation :rolleyes:

I'm sorry that you can't prove Noah would prevent an extra couple of baskets by taking steroids.

I'm sorry you're passing off your opinion as fact.

man you missed the point in my posts, im open to discussing anything with you or anybody else but u turned it into some grammar battle with your ridiculous in fact blabla.

right now you pass your opinion off as a fact. im a medicine student and im very interested into sports and training and also did some research on steroids, so i have a vague idea of what someones able to do so,but no one can 100 %ly prove or disprove that noah can prevent baskets from dwight howard with roids,but i can tell you an extra inch added to your jump or 2 tenths of a second in your explosiveness when elevating into the air can get you the block if you have the natural instinct for blocking shots, when you take 2 players with the same skillset, the more athletic one will win.
my problem was not your opinion in that matter, but that you missed the point in our discussion because nobody ever said that you can become anything in the nba without talent, u need it but you will realize it a whole lot faster with the use of roids.

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 06:06 PM
dont know wy eople 9s focusing only on roids when there are like 40 drugs to enhnce performance.

yeah thats true, maybe i shoulda used the word performance enhancers instead of roids or juice but i think most people just stick to roids because its the most (in-)famous.

PJAF
08-07-2009, 06:08 PM
The name of the game is performance. If players want to enhance their performance and play through injuries with PEDs I don't see the problem, in any sport. It's a reality of our culture, right or wrong people need to get over it.

theuuord
08-07-2009, 06:09 PM
lol @ caring about drugs in sports

rabzouz 96
08-07-2009, 06:29 PM
Probably not. As I've already posted there are plenty of examples of players who were freak athletes (read: super strong, super quick, etc) who went out of the league as quickly as they came in.

thats not the point. theres no question that you wont succeed if you have no bball iq, but would these players make it into the league without their athleticism? prolly not. do they know it? prolly yes, so taking roids in order to become more athletic and therefore make millions later on and get the chance to play in the nba is very tempting.



You don't need steroids to bulk up.

totally depends on what kind of conditions were talking about.
of course to generally bulk up you dont need steroids. but to do so in a very short period of time you need them,especially if youre not a newbie when it comes to training. if you dont have the time or money to take care of rest,perfect nutritioning, overtraining and so on steroids can do wonders.
you can reach your genetic level which is varyiing from person to person about 10 kilo more than your height in cms - 100. but to get there you need years of total dedication. but these kids need it as fast as possible to stand out at highschool college etc before they reach their 20s and the bigger focus is on playing bball. they have very good genes but in order to distance em from their competition and for the chance of getting to play in college or even nba every little advantage will help and performance enhancers can bring you athleticism a whole lot faster and with a whole lot more success than natural training.




An overstated opinion. I've known plenty of people (and am an example myself) who can do strenuous work outs for 8 + hours total/per day at the gym without the use of steroids.
that is good for you, and probably those who make it to the nba will have similar genes in that respect. but doing that and having an effect out of it are 2 different things.your cns will need rest at some point, and you have to eat to have a calorie surplus at the end of the day, you have to play bball and to work out, plus school. sounds a bit much to me, why not take steroids so you dont need to work out 8+ hours in the gym. its not about hobby sports its about prosports, its about getting axcellent not just above average.

People are built different ways.

Like how Deron Wlliams is a tank compared to other PG's because he has big built.
yes but this might lead to players who are not build like dwill to take steroids to make up on that ground.

there is no way to tell by the naked eye whether someone has juiced or not.
true

Steroids helps for baseball and football but not basketball where you have to be quicker and more agile.
yeah because you dont have to be quick and agile in football. especially because of that performance enhancers are even more fitting.

Draco
08-07-2009, 06:33 PM
man you missed the point in my posts, im open to discussing anything with you or anybody else but u turned it into some grammar battle with your ridiculous in fact blabla.

right now you pass your opinion off as a fact. im a medicine student and im very interested into sports and training and also did some research on steroids, so i have a vague idea of what someones able to do so,but no one can 100 %ly prove or disprove that noah can prevent baskets from dwight howard with roids,but i can tell you an extra inch added to your jump or 2 tenths of a second in your explosiveness when elevating into the air can get you the block if you have the natural instinct for blocking shots, when you take 2 players with the same skillset, the more athletic one will win.
my problem was not your opinion in that matter, but that you missed the point in our discussion because nobody ever said that you can become anything in the nba without talent, u need it but you will realize it a whole lot faster with the use of roids.

If it were apparent that success in rebounding depended on a 2 tenths of a second increase in explosiveness or anything similar then I can see your point. I don't see that the motivation is there to enhance a particular physical attribute whether its speed or strength because players don't rely on a single physical attribute for success on the court. Not like players do in hitting home runs, or in track or weight lifting.

Hey, I've studied psychology so I'm particularly interested in what motivates people. :p

BradyIsTheMan12
08-07-2009, 06:51 PM
i could definitely see lebron now and shaq when he was younger on roids...these guys epitomize physical dominance in a way we have never seen before i cannot turn a blind eye to it because i am positive it is true lebron is definitely on something and shaq was as well

Draco
08-07-2009, 07:11 PM
thats not the point. theres no question that you wont succeed if you have no bball iq, but would these players make it into the league without their athleticism? prolly not. do they know it? prolly yes, so taking roids in order to become more athletic and therefore make millions later on and get the chance to play in the nba is very tempting.

Already addressed the motivation to take steroids in another post. Discussing college ballers is beyond the point of this thread but perhaps a college player is desperate enough to believe playing up his athleticism will get him a multi million dollar contract. More realistically, the creme rises to the top and juicers should figure to get weeded out long before they have a chance at serious money.



totally depends on what kind of conditions were talking about.
of course to generally bulk up you dont need steroids. but to do so in a very short period of time you need them,especially if youre not a newbie when it comes to training. if you dont have the time or money to take care of rest,perfect nutritioning, overtraining and so on steroids can do wonders.

Pro atheltes should have no excuses for not having the time.



you can reach your genetic level which is varyiing from person to person about 10 kilo more than your height in cms - 100. but to get there you need years of total dedication. but these kids need it as fast as possible to stand out at highschool college etc before they reach their 20s and the bigger focus is on playing bball. they have very good genes but in order to distance em from their competition and for the chance of getting to play in college or even nba every little advantage will help and performance enhancers can bring you athleticism a whole lot faster and with a whole lot more success than natural training.

Again, beyond the point of this thread but I'm willing to believe there are kids who believe steroids are the answer to their dreams. Again, I believe the creme rises to the top and these are the people who don't necessarily need roids to get the ball in the hoop, to show off their handles, or to grab a rebound. The pretenders will fall by the wayside sooner or later in high school, in college and well before a serious money NBA contract.



that is good for you, and probably those who make it to the nba will have similar genes in that respect. but doing that and having an effect out of it are 2 different things.your cns will need rest at some point, and you have to eat to have a calorie surplus at the end of the day, you have to play bball and to work out, plus school. sounds a bit much to me, why not take steroids so you dont need to work out 8+ hours in the gym. its not about hobby sports its about prosports, its about getting axcellent not just above average.

More of the same..

jakesmail123
08-07-2009, 08:40 PM
Steroids don't make anyone taller or give anyone more "hops" so I am going to say the NBA is the least likely of the major sports to have that issue.

HGH makes u taller and steriods can definately give u a bigger vertical.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 08:43 PM
well the quicker reaction wont come from steroids but from amphetamines so youre right in that one, but jumping higher can be reached through usage of steroids, also because they will allow you to train more frequently and your body will recover much quicker.

But the thing is, if using steroids increases your muscle mass, allowing you train harder. Muscle weighs more than fat; so converting weight in 200lbs in muscle is heavier than 200lbs of fat. Which theoretically means your jumping with heavier weight.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 08:55 PM
please reread my posts, i dont have the feeling that you understood one word of the things i said, nor do i think that you know how steroids/hgh/amphetamines work.
i dont have a desire to write the same stuff back and forth time after time.
i never said that sheer athleticism will get you anywhere, maybe on the defensive end a la ben wallace, but i never said that steroids are a filler for talent. they just enhance the talent that is there and take you beyond levels that you could reach naturally. a juicing lebron will have advantages over a natural lebron, a kobe on roids will be more lethal than a natural kobe ...
if there is a certain talent, you will maximize it with steroid use or if your talent is a little less it might give you an advantage over someone with a little more talent who doesnt juice.

and just because hes lanky it doesnt mean that daye never took any steroids, not every steroid is anabolic.
But the drugs you mentioned are not magic pills of talent either.

You either have the talent to compete, or you do not have the talent; like anything else you wont go through life being borderline. All steroids are hormones.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 09:04 PM
You're missing the point. Not everyone can naturally put on muscle and recover quickly, steroids can enable you to do that. And no one's claiming that some random guy can get jacked off roids and enter the NBA. The point is, the guy thats already in the league can get jacked off roids and add another dimension to his game.

This is all hypothetical, but to deny that stronger and more athletic guys succeed more in the NBA is ridiculous. Obviously a strong guy with no talent is garbage, but look at the bodies of Lebron or Dwight and tell me that strength and endurance doesn't matter in the NBA.

But to say I can stack and become NBA caliber is as unlikely too. That seems to be the general argument anyway.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 09:05 PM
Steroids helps for baseball and football but not basketball where you have to be quicker and more agile.
Can't rule that one out. The number 1 thing steroids will help ANY ATHLETE do is stay CONSISTENT all year round.

MaHaRaJaH
08-07-2009, 09:16 PM
HGH makes u taller and steriods can definately give u a bigger vertical.

It makes you taller so long as you still have cartilage between joints; you lose that for most men by the time you're 18.

the 1 and only!
08-08-2009, 01:55 AM
LeBron has definitely done steroids, HGH of some sort.

Just compare...

His Rookie season:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050420/050420_lebron_james_vmed_7p.widec.jpg

To now:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YODg65nll_o/SYDTibc3cVI/AAAAAAABa2o/EAUl3ThY3kg/s400/lebron-james-tattoo-612-arms-both-small.jpg

Lol, it's so obvious...

D-Will4Prez
08-08-2009, 01:56 AM
umm his rookie season was 5-6 years ago, HGH is not the only way to gain muscle you know...

MajorFloridaFan
08-08-2009, 01:57 AM
it could be possible no point in arguing over evidence if there is none

the 1 and only!
08-08-2009, 02:04 AM
Steroids helps for baseball and football but not basketball where you have to be quicker and more agile.

Sure it can, if you are stronger and you dont tire as easy,your legs wont go inthe 4th qtr and your shot will still be there, most guys fadlate in game sbecause they are tired and cant recover from say a bac ot back.

HGH would do wonders for guys on back to back nights

Giantwarrior
08-08-2009, 02:06 AM
who cares.. im sure most of them are on something to get ahead. most of them are pot heads and i bet they cheat on their wives constantly. i bet most of them are a$$holes anyway. at least they can play basketball.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 03:56 AM
LeBron has definitely done steroids, HGH of some sort.

Just compare...

His Rookie season:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050420/050420_lebron_james_vmed_7p.widec.jpg

To now:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YODg65nll_o/SYDTibc3cVI/AAAAAAABa2o/EAUl3ThY3kg/s400/lebron-james-tattoo-612-arms-both-small.jpg

Lol, it's so obvious...

Inconclusive :eyebrow:

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 03:58 AM
Sure it can, if you are stronger and you dont tire as easy,your legs wont go inthe 4th qtr and your shot will still be there, most guys fadlate in game sbecause they are tired and cant recover from say a bac ot back.

HGH would do wonders for guys on back to back nights

And that's the most important advantage PEDs provide, consistency.

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 07:54 AM
If it were apparent that success in rebounding depended on a 2 tenths of a second increase in explosiveness or anything similar then I can see your point. I don't see that the motivation is there to enhance a particular physical attribute whether its speed or strength because players don't rely on a single physical attribute for success on the court. Not like players do in hitting home runs, or in track or weight lifting.

Hey, I've studied psychology so I'm particularly interested in what motivates people. :p
but at that level, being a little faster(steroids or not) can make the difference into getting an open look or making the layup or getting blocked, or on the other end in blocking the shot or him making it.
i dont know how to explain it to you differently but its not about a single physical attribute but overall athleticism paired with talent, which can get you many advantages on the court and can give you the chane to add more options into your offensive or defensive repertoire because you can excell your opponent.

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 08:08 AM
Already addressed the motivation to take steroids in another post. Discussing college ballers is beyond the point of this thread but perhaps a college player is desperate enough to believe playing up his athleticism will get him a multi million dollar contract. More realistically, the creme rises to the top and juicers should figure to get weeded out long before they have a chance at serious money.



Pro atheltes should have no excuses for not having the time.



Again, beyond the point of this thread but I'm willing to believe there are kids who believe steroids are the answer to their dreams. Again, I believe the creme rises to the top and these are the people who don't necessarily need roids to get the ball in the hoop, to show off their handles, or to grab a rebound. The pretenders will fall by the wayside sooner or later in high school, in college and well before a serious money NBA contract.



More of the same..

maybe thats why were arguing, because we have a different understanding of steroids in the nba.
to me steroids in the nba means, players have used it at some point in their life to get there, no necessarily that they started when they were already in(which i find very unlikely). i was talking about players who started with that in hs and are on it since then, i dont think that someone like lebron or lewis or whomever would start it when hes already in the nba. they have done their circles from time to time, before being pro athletes with huge amounts of time.

to the cream of the crop part.
yeah in the end it will be like that, without the talent you wont get anywhere, i never said that even once.
but that doesnt mean that the cream of the cop doesnt do steroids or need steroids.if there are more players with your talent, but theyre on steroids then you need to do something to compete with them or youll be left out in the dust. theres a big difference in getting drafted at first spot or getting drafted at the 10th spot, youll lose millions that way.

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 08:15 AM
But the thing is, if using steroids increases your muscle mass, allowing you train harder. Muscle weighs more than fat; so converting weight in 200lbs in muscle is heavier than 200lbs of fat. Which theoretically means your jumping with heavier weight.
i fail to see what this has to do with anything. yes muscles weigh more than fat, but 200 lbs of muscles are not heavier than 200 lbs of fat, they weigh the same.
and the muscles will also give you the power to jump its not just their weight that pushes on you its no linear equation.
also if you gain muscles through the use of testosterone proprionate as example is a question of your nutrioning. if you dont have a calorie surplus you wont gain muscles. you can use the same testosterone to lose fat faster depending on your diet. steroids wont make hulk out of you wihtout putting work in, but you can put more work into your jumping training or whatever you do.

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 08:22 AM
But the drugs you mentioned are not magic pills of talent either.

You either have the talent to compete, or you do not have the talent; like anything else you wont go through life being borderline. All steroids are hormones.

we have that for the third or fourth time now. nowhere did i say that steroids are a filler for talent. you need the talent. do you think you could play in the mlb with the use of steroids? no you would never be able to do that, not with steroids ,not without. but the athletes there use it despite that.would u ever be a probodybuilder? prolly not because you still need the genes and the knowledge how to train and eat even if you take steroids.
you need talent, but not only one guy has talent, among the guys with the talent it might give you the little extra boost to be the tick better that will net you a higher draft position or the next higher contract or whatever.

seroids are hormones, so what? take halotestine for example. its very popular among powerlifters, because its very androgene but not very anabol. that means you will hardly gain mass from it, but you will gain a lot of strength from its usage. they dont function the same just because theyre roids.

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 08:29 AM
who cares.. im sure most of them are on something to get ahead. most of them are pot heads and i bet they cheat on their wives constantly. i bet most of them are a$$holes anyway. at least they can play basketball.

lulz yeah thats it what it all comes down to in the end. sounds pretty negative but thats what reality imo looks like.

stawka
08-08-2009, 08:31 AM
It's pretty hard to think Malone/LeBron/Dwight/Zo and especially David Robinson didn't use roids or HGH. They have the perfect bodies. Guys like Wade and Bynum you could say they just worked out, but the other guys mentioned above were ridiculously big, something had to have happen.

Maybe the NBA just turned a blind eye because they're superstars?

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 10:02 AM
but at that level, being a little faster(steroids or not) can make the difference into getting an open look or making the layup or getting blocked, or on the other end in blocking the shot or him making it.
i dont know how to explain it to you differently but its not about a single physical attribute but overall athleticism paired with talent, which can get you many advantages on the court and can give you the chane to add more options into your offensive or defensive repertoire because you can excell your opponent.

Keyword "can"

But talent is not inversely related with athleticism either.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 10:04 AM
to the cream of the crop part.
yeah in the end it will be like that, without the talent you wont get anywhere, i never said that even once.
but that doesnt mean that the cream of the cop doesnt do steroids or need steroids.if there are more players with your talent, but theyre on steroids then you need to do something to compete with them or youll be left out in the dust. theres a big difference in getting drafted at first spot or getting drafted at the 10th spot, youll lose millions that way.

Yes that's why your argument for "the slightly lesser" player can't really work.

magichatnumber9
08-08-2009, 10:07 AM
They have testing, who cares

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 10:11 AM
i fail to see what this has to do with anything. yes muscles weigh more than fat, but 200 lbs of muscles are not heavier than 200 lbs of fat, they weigh the same.
and the muscles will also give you the power to jump its not just their weight that pushes on you its no linear equation.
also if you gain muscles through the use of testosterone proprionate as example is a question of your nutrioning. if you dont have a calorie surplus you wont gain muscles. you can use the same testosterone to lose fat faster depending on your diet. steroids wont make hulk out of you wihtout putting work in, but you can put more work into your jumping training or whatever you do.

Had a tough time trying to put that in such a way where it would not mislead, the word converting did not help. The point is your weight (plus gravity, friction, among other factors) is what keeps you down. Steroids make you CONSISTENT player more than it does make you a BETTER player.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 10:15 AM
we have that for the third or fourth time now. nowhere did i say that steroids are a filler for talent. you need the talent. do you think you could play in the mlb with the use of steroids? no you would never be able to do that, not with steroids ,not without. but the athletes there use it despite that.would u ever be a probodybuilder? prolly not because you still need the genes and the knowledge how to train and eat even if you take steroids.
you need talent, but not only one guy has talent, among the guys with the talent it might give you the little extra boost to be the tick better that will net you a higher draft position or the next higher contract or whatever.

seroids are hormones, so what? take halotestine for example. its very popular among powerlifters, because its very androgene but not very anabol. that means you will hardly gain mass from it, but you will gain a lot of strength from its usage. they dont function the same just because theyre roids.

Still comes out that way.

That's what everybody thinks. Hence the word "cheater" being thrown around.

Because you can stay Consistent; without losing energy near the end of
season which can make all the difference.

I'm just sick of people treating it as a "chemical".

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 12:57 PM
Keyword "can"

But talent is not inversely related with athleticism either.
yeah can, i didnt say they definitely would, but if its about millions most people wouldnt leave a stone unturned.


Yes that's why your argument for "the slightly lesser" player can't really work.
what? why not? of course it can. i know people that have a better understanding of the game than i do, but im faster and jump higher than them and i take full advantage of it, and they cant contain me.take a player like jj reddick for example. he has some bball iq but he lacks the athleticism. players with slightly less bball iq but more athleticism are better than him. i think the same will go for stephen curry in the future.


Had a tough time trying to put that in such a way where it would not mislead, the word converting did not help. The point is your weight (plus gravity, friction, among other factors) is what keeps you down. Steroids make you CONSISTENT player more than it does make you a BETTER player.
hmm im lost,sorry.
consistent=better.

Still comes out that way.

That's what everybody thinks. Hence the word "cheater" being thrown around.

Because you can stay Consistent; without losing energy near the end of
season which can make all the difference.

I'm just sick of people treating it as a "chemical".

i dont see taking steroids(or any performance enhancers) as cheating, i never called anyone a cheater in here. its just a thing that is there in prosports, i dont think it takes away anything from it.

ink
08-08-2009, 02:07 PM
i dont see taking steroids(or any performance enhancers) as cheating ...

I understand that a lot of people just accept doping since it's so common, but it is still cheating:


Main Entry: cheat
Pronunciation: \ˈchēt\
Function: verb
Etymology: 2cheat
Date: 1590
transitive verb
1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive verb
1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
2 : to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with on<was cheating on his wife>
3 : to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area <the shortstop was cheating toward second base>

How can any self-respecting sport allow cheating? Why should it allow athletes to cheat? It destroys the meaning of records for one thing if you allow artificially enhanced athletes to break the records of clean superstars.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 02:43 PM
i know people that have a better understanding of the game than i do, but im faster and jump higher than them and i take full advantage of it, and they cant contain me[/B].take a player like jj reddick for example. he has some bball iq but he lacks the athleticism. players with slightly less bball iq but more athleticism are better than him. i think the same will go for stephen curry in the future.

All or nothing principal, you either had all the talent to begin with or you didn`t. Irrelevant to an NBA player.



hmm im lost,sorry.
consistent=better.
You misunderstood, if you`re putting up 25ppg for 3 quarters of the year; come end of the year you wont necessarily have the energy to make yourself do so. PEDs can help that by allowing you to not be tired during the closing month. Doesn`t necessarily have to make you better, you have the energy to remain consistent.



i dont see taking steroids(or any performance enhancers) as cheating, i never called anyone a cheater in here. its just a thing that is there in prosports, i dont think it takes away anything from it.

Since it`s banned, any use of it while using the banned substance is cheating. But if it wasn`t banned, it certainly is not cheating since everybody has an equal opportunity to obtain it. I know you didn`t, but people are calling them cheaters for the wrong reasons. You`re right.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 02:55 PM
How can any self-respecting sport allow cheating?

I believe steroids were banned in 1999, so anything before that it was not cheating at all since _everybody_ had an equal chance to get it. But anything after `99 is cheating it was not allowed at all. So yes, they deserve their punishment.

theuuord
08-08-2009, 03:45 PM
I believe steroids were banned in 1999, so anything before that it was not cheating at all since _everybody_ had an equal chance to get it. But anything after `99 is cheating it was not allowed at all. So yes, they deserve their punishment.

nope, it was actually later that they were actually put on a punishment list in baseball (in 2003).... which means that there's just a suspension. it's not nearly as "banned" as, say, gambling, which is an automatic life ban.

if someone gets caught, they spend 50 games in suspension, after which their punishment is over. the court of public opinion is a madhouse on this subject. It's like saying a pitcher should be banned from baseball if they use a spitball, or are found with tar on their fingers.

theuuord
08-08-2009, 03:46 PM
I understand that a lot of people just accept doping since it's so common, but it is still cheating:



How can any self-respecting sport allow cheating? Why should it allow athletes to cheat? It destroys the meaning of records for one thing if you allow artificially enhanced athletes to break the records of clean superstars.

you'd be surprised at how many so-called "clean" records are as dirty as the ones being set today.... ESPECIALLY in baseball.

pippsux
08-08-2009, 04:05 PM
Sports and drugs have been forever married. There is no way a guy plays 82 games a season plus playoffs and have only 5 months a year to recover and not need some kind of edge to get by. The body gets tired and it will take more than red bull to get it back. I think the NBA, which is player driven, protects it's players well. I find it hard to believe that Rashaad Lewis is the only player all season to use something to get an edge.

ink
08-08-2009, 04:15 PM
I believe steroids were banned in 1999, so anything before that it was not cheating at all since _everybody_ had an equal chance to get it. But anything after `99 is cheating it was not allowed at all. So yes, they deserve their punishment.

Because the NBA only tests during the season, they're essentially allowing cheating.

Example: know any players that are bulking up this off-season?? Thought so.

PED experts like Victor Conte (BALCO) say that any fool could work around the drug testing programs that pro sport has. Think about it. Cheat in the off season, reap the benefits during the season. Get tested during the season, you're pronounced "clean" by the league. Start cheating again in the off-season to build yourself back up.

Repeat cycle. Rinse.

It's so stupidly easy, it's almost as if the league is participating in the cheating.

ink
08-08-2009, 04:28 PM
you'd be surprised at how many so-called "clean" records are as dirty as the ones being set today.... ESPECIALLY in baseball.

You trying to tell me the Babe was on PEDs? lol. Maris?

There's been some evidence of drug use dating back to the beginning of the 1900's when Tour de France cyclists started using strychnine (!!) and wine to give themselves a boost.

Amphetamines started getting used in the 50's, but truly organized strength enhancement really only started in the late 50's between the Russians and Americans in Olympic competition.

Anabolic steroids were banned from competition in the 1976 Olympics.

There's no way that professional athletes weren't aware of and users of PEDs by the 70's. They have more disposable salary than any "amateur" athlete ever had, and stand to gain a lot more too.

So you're right that there have been cheaters for a long time. The point still stands regardless. What credibility does a sport have if it doesn't value and protect its own records?

Whenever the first cheaters started they still stole records away from clean athletes at some point.

In basketball I'd start looking back at the first dunkers. Interesting coincidence that they really started in about the same era as the "Bash Brothers" were going strong in Oakland. Mid to late 80's.

theuuord
08-08-2009, 04:38 PM
You trying to tell me the Babe was on PEDs? lol. Maris?

Babe Ruth used a corked bat (which has ALWAYS been against MLB policy) and was generally known to bend whatever rule he could, which was all of them. He basically ran baseball in the 1920s.


There's been some evidence of drug use dating back to the beginning of the 1900's when Tour de France cyclists started using strychnine (!!) and wine to give themselves a boost.

Amphetamines started getting used in the 50's, but truly organized strength enhancement really only started in the late 50's between the Russians and Americans in Olympic competition.

Anabolic steroids were banned from competition in the 1976 Olympics.

There's no way that professional athletes weren't aware of and users of PEDs by the 70's. They have more disposable salary than any "amateur" athlete ever had, and stand to gain a lot more too.

I'd say read the book Ball Four by Jim Bouton. Although it's not great, it does shine a decent amount of light on drugs in baseball in the 60s.


So you're right that there have been cheaters for a long time. The point still stands regardless. What credibility does a sport have if it doesn't value and protect its own records?

I value records very highly. I just don't care if players cheat to get there. Hell, Gaylord Perry wrote a book on how he cheated his entire career, and everyone knew it, and he's in the Hall with 300 wins anyway.

The sacrilazation of records - especially in baseball - is a fallacy invented by people stuck in a state of "everything was better back then" imagined nostalgia.


Whenever the first cheaters started they still stole records away from clean athletes at some point.

there is a very, very blurry line that separates "cheating" from "not cheating." It's not all black and white like you're making it seem.

ink
08-08-2009, 05:12 PM
The sacrilazation of records - especially in baseball - is a fallacy invented by people stuck in a state of "everything was better back then" imagined nostalgia.

You're missing my point completely if you think this is nostalgia.

I'm very involved in elite amateur sport. I'll give you an example that may or may not mean much to you, but it puts the issue into its proper context.

In the 2002 Winter Games in Utah, Beckie Scott won a bronze medal behind two Russian skiers. Scott was a phenom in skiing and ended up behind two skiers who doped. They were both caught. First the gold medalist was caught, and Scott was awarded the silver. Then a couple of years later, the other Russian's B sample was re-tested with new testing procedures and they caught her too. So that Russian was disqualified too. But meanwhile, the real winner of the race did not have a medal ceremony, wasn't able to enjoy any of the credit she deserved from the public and the media, and most importantly for someone trying to make a living, wasn't offered the lucrative contracts a lot of these athletes fight for.

Three years after her race, Scott was awarded the gold medal. So, she got the gold, but she didn't get any of the other things that were rightfully hers.

The issue isn't nostalgia. It's about declaring the right athlete as the winner or record holder. It's about cheaters stealing from legit athletes.


there is a very, very blurry line that separates "cheating" from "not cheating." It's not all black and white like you're making it seem.

It has zero to do with nostalgia.

Obviously there are grey areas. But that's why rules are written: to try to make what's legal as clear as possible so the legit athletes get the rewards.

theuuord
08-08-2009, 05:21 PM
You're missing my point completely if you think this is nostalgia.

I'm very involved in elite amateur sport. I'll give you an example that may or may not mean much to you, but it puts the issue into its proper context.

In the 2002 Winter Games in Utah, Beckie Scott won a bronze medal behind two Russian skiers. Scott was a phenom in skiing and ended up behind two skiers who doped. They were both caught. First the gold medalist was caught, and Scott was awarded the silver. Then a couple of years later, the other Russian's B sample was re-tested with new testing procedures and they caught her too. So that Russian was disqualified too. But meanwhile, the real winner of the race did not have a medal ceremony, wasn't able to enjoy any of the credit she deserved from the public and the media, and most importantly for someone trying to make a living, wasn't offered the lucrative contracts a lot of these athletes fight for.

Three years after her race, Scott was awarded the gold medal. So, she got the gold, but she didn't get any of the other things that were rightfully hers.

The issue isn't nostalgia. It's about declaring the right athlete as the winner or record holder. It's about cheaters stealing from legit athletes.


The issue here is the word choice of "rightfully." People - not Gods - make rules about what is and isn't allowed in sport, and as a result the rules both a) change rapidly and b) can easily be considered unfair. The old adage goes "it's only illegal if you get caught" - and who's to say that if we re-test Scott's blood, we won't find anything? Or, better yet, who's to say her masking agent wasn't better? Or, even better yet, think of the recent controversy with Michael Phelps and the new-age suits that are now illegal. Should those records he made be reversed?
I know it's speculation but these are important questions we need to ask. Critical analysis of why we consider cheating to be cheating is absolutely necessary - and not enough people do it.

I personally don't put a lot of stock in the IOC or MLB or any major governing body about what they consider legal and illegal in their own sport. I just don't care if athletes are "using" or not, because like I said the line is so blurry on what counts as "using" - a cortisone shot is fine, but DHEA is illegal?

For instance, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until 2003, but the public still villifies anyone caught using - even before that time. I think it's a load of crap. Show me a list of Hall of Famers and I'll show you a list of cheaters and lawbreakers.



Obviously there are grey areas. But that's why rules are written: to try to make what's legal as clear as possible so the legit athletes get the rewards.

And again, what is "legit"? If a guy steals signs, he's technically cheating, right? Again, Gaylord Perry is the furthest thing from a legit athlete ever, but he's universally loved.
Where do we - as both a public and a record-keeper - draw the line? Because it obviously isn't drawn already.

theuuord
08-08-2009, 05:22 PM
Also: when speaking about nostalgia I'm much more referring to the sacrilazation of baseball records than anything else.

Draco
08-08-2009, 05:23 PM
Also: when speaking about nostalgia I'm much more referring to the sacrilazation of baseball records than anything else.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10456375&postcount=110

Draco
08-08-2009, 05:25 PM
How can any self-respecting sport allow cheating? Why should it allow athletes to cheat? It destroys the meaning of records for one thing if you allow artificially enhanced athletes to break the records of clean superstars.

Changing NBA rules changes the meaning behind records..

It's a level playing field if everyone's using PED's which seems to be your opinion.

ManRam
08-08-2009, 05:33 PM
LeBron has definitely done steroids, HGH of some sort.

Just compare...

His Rookie season:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050420/050420_lebron_james_vmed_7p.widec.jpg

To now:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YODg65nll_o/SYDTibc3cVI/AAAAAAABa2o/EAUl3ThY3kg/s400/lebron-james-tattoo-612-arms-both-small.jpg

Lol, it's so obvious...

Fail. It's called an 18 year-old boy, working hard every single day with world class trainers and technology. From 18 to 22, I personally gained 35 pounds of muscle...and I know I didn't use roids.

Is it impossible to get big, or be a world class athlete without taking steroids? This is the NBA. I'd llike to believe the best athletes in the world are playing there. He is a world class athlete.

NBA athletes definitely have taken steroids, probably more likely HGH, but you can't tell by looking at them if they have or haven't. It is possible to be a freakish athlete. These are the top .0001% of athletes in the world we're talking about.

ink
08-08-2009, 05:36 PM
And again, what is "legit"?

Except as a mental exercise to pass the time there's really no reason to equivocate. We know what cheating is.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 05:36 PM
nope, it was actually later that they were actually put on a punishment list in baseball (in 2003).... which means that there's just a suspension. it's not nearly as "banned" as, say, gambling, which is an automatic life ban.

if someone gets caught, they spend 50 games in suspension, after which their punishment is over. the court of public opinion is a madhouse on this subject. It's like saying a pitcher should be banned from baseball if they use a spitball, or are found with tar on their fingers.

The first rules to stop using steroids were in 1999, it was the 2003 they actually made it rigorous. My point was, anything beyond 1999 would be cheating an established rule.

ink
08-08-2009, 05:40 PM
Changing NBA rules changes the meaning behind records..

Obviously they can't be 100% effective as long as there are cheaters inventing ways to work around rules, but there's no reason to convolute an already cloudy issue. Rules attempt to bring clarity to a sport. Drug rules attempt to preserve the level playing field. That's the point of the rules. Are you suggesting that because rules can be broken or distorted there is no purpose for rules?

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 05:43 PM
Obviously they can't be 100% effective as long as there are cheaters inventing ways to work around rules, but there's no reason to convolute an already cloudy issue. Rules attempt to bring clarity to a sport. Drug rules attempt to preserve the level playing field. That's the point of the rules. Are you suggesting that because rules can be broken or distorted there is no purpose for rules?

If it`s a rule, then it should remain a rule and punishable for breaking it. But I`m against what people call `cheaters`or `Tainted`

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 05:43 PM
The issue here is the word choice of "rightfully." People - not Gods - make rules about what is and isn't allowed in sport, and as a result the rules both a) change rapidly and b) can easily be considered unfair. The old adage goes "it's only illegal if you get caught" - and who's to say that if we re-test Scott's blood, we won't find anything? Or, better yet, who's to say her masking agent wasn't better? Or, even better yet, think of the recent controversy with Michael Phelps and the new-age suits that are now illegal. Should those records he made be reversed?
I know it's speculation but these are important questions we need to ask. Critical analysis of why we consider cheating to be cheating is absolutely necessary - and not enough people do it.

I personally don't put a lot of stock in the IOC or MLB or any major governing body about what they consider legal and illegal in their own sport. I just don't care if athletes are "using" or not, because like I said the line is so blurry on what counts as "using" - a cortisone shot is fine, but DHEA is illegal?

For instance, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until 2003, but the public still villifies anyone caught using - even before that time. I think it's a load of crap. Show me a list of Hall of Famers and I'll show you a list of cheaters and lawbreakers.




And again, what is "legit"? If a guy steals signs, he's technically cheating, right? Again, Gaylord Perry is the furthest thing from a legit athlete ever, but he's universally loved.
Where do we - as both a public and a record-keeper - draw the line? Because it obviously isn't drawn already.

Nail-in-Wall.

ink
08-08-2009, 05:48 PM
If it`s a rule, then it should remain a rule and punishable for breaking it. But I`m against what people call `cheaters`or `Tainted`

No offense but that sounds like you want it both ways.

Draco
08-08-2009, 05:53 PM
Obviously they can't be 100% effective as long as there are cheaters inventing ways to work around rules, but there's no reason to convolute an already cloudy issue. Rules attempt to bring clarity to a sport. Drug rules attempt to preserve the level playing field. That's the point of the rules. Are you suggesting that because rules can be broken or distorted there is no purpose for rules?

I meant changing NBA rules such as where the 3-point line is, hand checking, etc. Records have meaning for that period of time when the game was played. I don't think PEDs threaten the integrity of long standing records any more than those things that changed the game.. even league expansion.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 05:54 PM
No offense but that sounds like you want it both ways.

Well, to be honest I really don`t care who took steroids and what they did with it. I see it more from science then `morals`. I`m a firm believer of rules, so if it is a rule now against steroids only then you are the cheater, for cheating a rule. Not the way people like to declare players as cheaters.

ink
08-08-2009, 05:54 PM
And who's to say that if we re-test Scott's blood, we won't find anything? Or, better yet, who's to say her masking agent wasn't better?

As an aside, and not to throw the thread off topic, but you can follow the development arc of an athlete. The suspicious ones are the ones that burst on the scene like Usain Bolt, for example. Scott's career arc was a consistent build with no sudden, surprising results, just steady improvement. The other issue is that Canadian Olympians since Ben Johnson have had to undergo the most intrusive and stringent drug testing of any athletes in the world. Several reasons for that: the Ben Johnson scandal, the Dubin inquiry that followed it, and Dick Pound, the ex-WADA Chief, and Montreal lawyer who set the standards.

ink
08-08-2009, 05:57 PM
Well, to be honest I really don`t care who took steroids and what they did with it. I see it more from science then `morals`. I`m a firm believer of rules, so if it is a rule now against steroids only then you are the cheater, for cheating a rule. Not the way people like to declare players as cheaters.

I'm just trying to understand. Aren't we only talking about people who break rules as being cheaters. I don't call anyone a cheater if they haven't broken a rule. :shrug: Anyway, the word "cheater" doesn't matter to me really. We can call them what we like. I'd just like to see their records taken away. If Ben Johnson's 9.79 time from 1988 can be taken away, so can Barry Bonds' home run record. Fair is fair.

Same would go for any scoring records that are set in the NBA. Unfortunately there has been no testing all during the 80's and 90's when steroid use exploded in pro sport.

ink
08-08-2009, 05:59 PM
I meant changing NBA rules such as where the 3-point line is, hand checking, etc. Records have meaning for that period of time when the game was played. I don't think PEDs threaten the integrity of long standing records any more than those things that changed the game.. even league expansion.

Well you have a good point there. But league sanctioned rule changes like you're talking about are different than records beaten by athletes who are doping. That is not sanctioned -- at least not explicitly. lol.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 06:11 PM
I'm just trying to understand. Aren't we only talking about people who break rules as being cheaters. I don't call anyone a cheater if they haven't broken a rule. :shrug: Anyway, the word "cheater" doesn't matter to me really. We can call them what we like. I'd just like to see their records taken away. If Ben Johnson's 9.79 time from 1988 can be taken away, so can Barry Bonds' home run record. Fair is fair.

Same would go for any scoring records that are set in the NBA. Unfortunately there has been no testing all during the 80's and 90's when steroid use exploded in pro sport.

I certainly hope we are, the world likes to call them cheaters for the wrong reasons. They will strip a Canadian his clothes if they have to, but they will never remove so much as a hair of an American athlete; 1988 proved that even after the fact Carl Lewis tested positive that same year.

ink
08-08-2009, 06:29 PM
I certainly hope we are, the world likes to call them cheaters for the wrong reasons. They will strip a Canadian his clothes if they have to, but they will never remove so much as a hair of an American athlete; 1988 proved that even after the fact Carl Lewis tested positive that same year.

I know exactly what you mean. In fact, something like 6 out of 8 of the 100m finalists in 1988 were later CAUGHT for doping. Yet Johnson is the only one to pay the price and lose his WR and medal. Carl Lewis still has his tainted gold.


Fifteen years on, it has now emerged that the man who came second and ultimately was given the gold medal, the then four-time Olympic gold medallist Lewis - who would go on to collect another five Olympic medals - had also secretly tested positive to banned drugs.

Internal United States Olympic Committee documents released this week by a disgruntled former USOC anti-doping official, Dr Wade Exum, show Lewis tested positive to three banned stimulants at the 1988 US Olympic trials, two months before the Seoul Olympics.

Lewis was initially banned from the Seoul Olympics and from the sport for sixth months but he immediately appealed, claiming inadvertent drug use, and the decision was overturned by the USOC. But the incident was never made public under the USOC's privacy guidelines.

Looking back, that Olympic race has turned out to be even more memorable for the third placegetter, Briton's Linford Christie, who also tested positive to the stimulant pseudoephedrine at the time but was allowed to keep his medal by a one-vote majority of the IOC medical commission.

Later in his career, Christie was banned for taking the steroid nandrolone. And Mitchell? He too has been caught taking testosterone, before infamously claiming the test result was from drinking beer and having sex the night before submitting his urine sample.

Sydney Morning Herald (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/17/1050172709696.html)

Carl Lewis, just like Rashard Lewis, claimed at the time that it was "inadvertant" drug use. Athletes have been making that same claim since the beginning of doping denials. It's nothing original that's for sure.

:rolleyes:

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 07:39 PM
All or nothing principal, you either had all the talent to begin with or you didn`t. Irrelevant to an NBA player.


i disagree there but at the same time i dont. its about being the crop out of the crop. the roids wont give you more talent, but they might give you the athleticism to make use of and exploit that talent or the endurance to work on your skills and use em in later game situations.

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 07:47 PM
You misunderstood, if you`re putting up 25ppg for 3 quarters of the year; come end of the year you wont necessarily have the energy to make yourself do so. PEDs can help that by allowing you to not be tired during the closing month. Doesn`t necessarily have to make you better, you have the energy to remain consistent.

depends on the ped, but yeah thats right. still makes you better imo because you can bring your performance over a longer timeframe, which leads to better stats, which leads to a better contract. but that speaks for ped so i dont see our disagreement!?

rabzouz 96
08-08-2009, 07:57 PM
I understand that a lot of people just accept doping since it's so common, but it is still cheating:



How can any self-respecting sport allow cheating? Why should it allow athletes to cheat? It destroys the meaning of records for one thing if you allow artificially enhanced athletes to break the records of clean superstars.



Since it`s banned, any use of it while using the banned substance is cheating. But if it wasn`t banned, it certainly is not cheating since everybody has an equal opportunity to obtain it. I know you didn`t, but people are calling them cheaters for the wrong reasons. You`re right.
well in a technical sense it is, but to me its not cheating because its an open secret. its like mr olympia, they have to ban steroids because roids are illegal but everybody knows that the competitants are on steroids and cant come to that level without them.
its banned because they have to ban em and if they did it openly many people who dont know how to properly use them would do them and overdo them and the consequences are going to be much more severe than for a pro athlete who does em under control of a doctor.(which doesnt mean that taking peds is a good thing or that proathletes dont have a risk in there, look at andreas munzer or all the nba pros with heart problems like eddy curry,lamarcus aldridge, jason collier,...)
still imo the biggest part of all atheletes in prosports and olympics are on them,and this doesnt just go for the most successful pros.

blazerman
08-08-2009, 08:12 PM
I know why Brandon Bass signed with Orlando. He wanted to be closer to his supplier Rashard Lewis.

Some of the Magic look a little puffy like Bass, Howard and Nelson better check em!

MajorFloridaFan
08-08-2009, 08:14 PM
^nice

*Superman*
08-08-2009, 08:33 PM
I know why Brandon Bass signed with Orlando. He wanted to be closer to his supplier Rashard Lewis.

Some of the Magic look a little puffy like Bass, Howard and Nelson better check em!

I can't wait till the Magic own the crap out of the Blazers.

MajorFloridaFan
08-08-2009, 08:38 PM
I can't wait till the Magic own the crap out of the Blazers.

First name hater last name Homer magic own the Blazers honestly....what can you do but pound them in to the ground every year...o just wait for them to resurface in the off-season and say o what could have been

Raps18-19 Champ
08-08-2009, 08:38 PM
I can't wait till the Magic own the crap out of the Blazers.

You have no sense of humour.

He was obviously joking so why make a big deal out of it?

blazerman
08-08-2009, 09:09 PM
I can't wait till the Magic own the crap out of the Blazers.

Really I was only joking with you guys, man you know how much crap Ive had to take as a Blazer fan over the yrs.

JR Rider smoking weed in the backseast of a VW bug in downtown Portland with a couple of hippies.
Damon Stoudamire and Rasheed Wallace getting pulled over on the way to court in Wash. and getting busted for weed.
Damon Stoudamire trying to pass some weed through a metal detector wrapped in tin foil at the airport.
Qyntel Woods getting pulled over for and trying to give the officer a trading card because he didnt have a license
Damon Stoudamire's home alarm goes off and the police arrive only to find a 1pound of weed on the table.
Darius Miles acting like Wild Bill hickok in a nightclub parking lot shooting a 9mm in the air.

I could probably go on for another hr and do you think everyone of those instances went unnoticed, NO.

Did I defend any of them busters, hell no, but I sure caught a lot of flack because of those retards but I can look back and laugh about it with the rest of you. I know you guys are in your little honeymoon period with the Magic right now but **** happens and if you cant take some playful ribbing then stop reading it. Lewis' debacle is really small potatoes and I really like him but hey I felt like makin a few jokes big deal.

Im sure Letterman,Conan and Leno and all those guys have taken a crack at him too, so maybe you should jump on them also.

And by the way it took a 25 ft prayer off the backboard to beat the Blazers this yr with your team that went to the finals and the other game was a coast to coast cakewalk for the Blazers. Your team doesnt frighten anyone, there good but come on now pound up the Blazers please. I will stop poking fun at the situation because I dont want to upset you and I happen to like reading some of your posts and think you have good insight alot of times. My bad and Im sorry.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 09:46 PM
i disagree there but at the same time i dont. its about being the crop out of the crop. the roids wont give you more talent, but they might give you the athleticism to make use of and exploit that talent or the endurance to work on your skills and use em in later game situations.

Which is what I'm trying to prove, I highly doubt the higher talent will lose out to the lesser talent on steroids.

MaHaRaJaH
08-08-2009, 09:49 PM
depends on the ped, but yeah thats right. still makes you better imo because you can bring your performance over a longer timeframe, which leads to better stats, which leads to a better contract. but that speaks for ped so i dont see our disagreement!?

Because to say it makes you BETTER is a huge stretch; you can only do good as your capable of. You won't suddenly start dropping 30.

theuuord
08-09-2009, 12:01 AM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10456375&postcount=110

not sure what that has to do with anything, but yes, i don't care about drugs in sports.

theuuord
08-09-2009, 12:03 AM
As an aside, and not to throw the thread off topic, but you can follow the development arc of an athlete. The suspicious ones are the ones that burst on the scene like Usain Bolt, for example. Scott's career arc was a consistent build with no sudden, surprising results, just steady improvement. The other issue is that Canadian Olympians since Ben Johnson have had to undergo the most intrusive and stringent drug testing of any athletes in the world. Several reasons for that: the Ben Johnson scandal, the Dubin inquiry that followed it, and Dick Pound, the ex-WADA Chief, and Montreal lawyer who set the standards.

not true at all. the first person to get suspended for steroid use was Alex Sanchez, a light-hitting outfielder. With the notable exceptions, most players who have been suspended are just minor league nobodies or fringe players.

suspicion may be aroused with burst-on-the-scene accomplishments, but that's just public opinion, not reality.

theuuord
08-09-2009, 12:04 AM
Except as a mental exercise to pass the time there's really no reason to equivocate. We know what cheating is.

No, we don't.
And worse yet, we have no idea how to punish it. (Especially in this day and age.)

If we remove all cheaters/lawbreakers from the Hall of Fame, Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Frank Robinson, Ty Cobb, Williams, all gone.

Plus dozens and dozens more.

theuuord
08-09-2009, 12:05 AM
The first rules to stop using steroids were in 1999, it was the 2003 they actually made it rigorous. My point was, anything beyond 1999 would be cheating an established rule.

No.

The first mandate against steroids in baseball was in 2003.

There was a memo sent out in 1991 that mentioned PED's, but it was unenforceable under the CBA at the time and wasn't an actual rule.

It was only in 2003 that steroids became a banned substance under the laws of MLB.

ink
08-09-2009, 02:17 AM
No, we don't.
And worse yet, we have no idea how to punish it. (Especially in this day and age.)

If we remove all cheaters/lawbreakers from the Hall of Fame, Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Frank Robinson, Ty Cobb, Williams, all gone.

Plus dozens and dozens more.

Steroid abuse began in the 80's. Virtually everyone (and I only say virtually because I know you're going to be the one to disagree lol) agrees that the issue at hand is from the onset of steroid abuse and forward. Sure amphetamines and alcohol were used long before that but the main issue in terms of systematic abuse that made athletes stronger and faster is steroids, HGH, etc. The others certainly mattered but we generally know we are talking about strength enhancement.

MaHaRaJaH
08-09-2009, 04:34 AM
No.

The first mandate against steroids in baseball was in 2003.

There was a memo sent out in 1991 that mentioned PED's, but it was unenforceable under the CBA at the time and wasn't an actual rule.

It was only in 2003 that steroids became a banned substance under the laws of MLB.

I`m talking about basketball...


In 1999, the NBA and the Players Association substantially modified and improved the drug program. Among other things, the list of banned substances was expanded to include steroids and performance-enhancing drugs; testing was expanded to cover veterans as well as rookie players; and penalties for violators were increased.


http://www.insidehoops.com/stern-steroids-house-reps-051805.shtml

theuuord
08-09-2009, 12:02 PM
I`m talking about basketball...



http://www.insidehoops.com/stern-steroids-house-reps-051805.shtml

Oh, right. I get so caught up in the steroid argument that I almost assume we're talking about baseball all the time. Mea culpa.

theuuord
08-09-2009, 12:04 PM
Steroid abuse began in the 80's. Virtually everyone (and I only say virtually because I know you're going to be the one to disagree lol) agrees that the issue at hand is from the onset of steroid abuse and forward. Sure amphetamines and alcohol were used long before that but the main issue in terms of systematic abuse that made athletes stronger and faster is steroids, HGH, etc. The others certainly mattered but we generally know we are talking about strength enhancement.

If we're talking about strength enhancement, there's no way you can say it starts with the steroid era. Regardless of whatever drug the media decided to focus on, that doesn't mean that the drug is the biggest performance enhancer. Go into any ballclub and they'll tell you that amphetamines are way more popular, way easier to take, and do way more for you as an athlete than steroids ever do. Amphetamines are basically meth. The stuff is insanely strong. I'd rather fight the guy on steroids than the guy on meth ANY day.

ink
08-09-2009, 01:57 PM
If we're talking about strength enhancement, there's no way you can say it starts with the steroid era. Regardless of whatever drug the media decided to focus on, that doesn't mean that the drug is the biggest performance enhancer. Go into any ballclub and they'll tell you that amphetamines are way more popular, way easier to take, and do way more for you as an athlete than steroids ever do. Amphetamines are basically meth. The stuff is insanely strong. I'd rather fight the guy on steroids than the guy on meth ANY day.

Given you consider amphetamines to be SO strong, and so much more effective than steroids, I'm certain you'd agree that Carl Lewis, a proven amphetamine user, had the biggest advantage of any of the sprinters who lined up in the men's 100m in Seoul in 1988 ... or the long jump, or the 4x100, or any of his gold medals from LA in 1984.

Or maybe you're an advocate for letting drug cheats keep their medals and records. In that case, Ben Johnson, who "only" took steroids, should still have his gold medal and stunning 9.79 record from that race.

theuuord
08-09-2009, 08:45 PM
Given you consider amphetamines to be SO strong, and so much more effective than steroids, I'm certain you'd agree that Carl Lewis, a proven amphetamine user, had the biggest advantage of any of the sprinters who lined up in the men's 100m in Seoul in 1988 ... or the long jump, or the 4x100, or any of his gold medals from LA in 1984.

Yup, he probably did. I don't know the extent of it, but if he used amphetamines prior to the race, he had a huge advantage.


Or maybe you're an advocate for letting drug cheats keep their medals and records.

Drug "cheat" is the type of subjectivity that should be dismissed. Drug user, yes.


In that case, Ben Johnson, who "only" took steroids, should still have his gold medal and stunning 9.79 record from that race.

He should still have his medal, but since Usain Bolt has shattered that 9.79 mark, he probably shouldn't have that called a record.

ink
08-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Drug "cheat" is the type of subjectivity that should be dismissed. Drug user, yes.

Given that users are breaking rules whether they're caught or not, it's completely objective and factual to say they're cheating. The definition of the word I posted above makes that pretty clear.

If you run a red light are you breaking the law? Of course you are. If you embezzle money from your company are you breaking the law? Of course you are whether you're caught or not.

Getting caught is only the beginning of the legal consequences. The cheating, or breaking of the law, happens when you commit the act in the first place.

MoBASS
08-10-2009, 12:09 AM
I love how Ink will never let this thread go away :)

Keep rockin' Ink, I'm on your side..

BTownTeamsRKing
08-10-2009, 12:14 AM
NBA insider Chris Mannix said on the local show that there is no wide spread use of PEDs in the NBA.

still im highly skeptical lebron got his body on vegatables and beans and meat.

ink
08-10-2009, 12:19 AM
I love how Ink will never let this thread go away :)

Keep rockin' Ink, I'm on your side..

Haha. If we're talking about sports, we're also talking about performance enhancing drugs. To me it's just like talking about any other issue in sport, except that this is the one that people like to bury.

theuuord
08-10-2009, 12:22 AM
Given that users are breaking rules whether they're caught or not, it's completely objective and factual to say they're cheating. The definition of the word I posted above makes that pretty clear.

If you run a red light are you breaking the law? Of course you are. If you embezzle money from your company are you breaking the law? Of course you are whether you're caught or not.

Getting caught is only the beginning of the legal consequences. The cheating, or breaking of the law, happens when you commit the act in the first place.

I guess what we're really arguing here is the extent of legal (and athletic, and social) consequences. (Also we're talking about two different sports, which brings a whole new layer to the argument.)
I know I've brought this up a couple of times, but it's a very important example. Gaylord Perry made a Hall of Fame baseball career out of what you call cheating. He was a cheat. He broke the rules his entire career. And nobody cared. He was thrown out of one game for it his entire career - well after the fact that he would be a HoFer was established. It was something to relish in. He wrote a book about it. People love him.
The same goes for pretty much every player in the pre-1998 era. Cheating was a silly part of the game that everyone tried. To quote baseball writer Thomas Boswell, "No other game is so rich in skullduggery, so suited to it or so proud of it."

But all of a sudden, in the last ten years or so, everyone who gets caught breaking rules in baseball - even if they're not actually rules in baseball at the time - is villified and in the court of public opinion should be banished from the Hall of Fame.

The general stance on cheating, at least in baseball (and most other sports), is extremely backwards and hypocritical.

MaHaRaJaH
08-10-2009, 12:32 AM
The general stance on cheating, at least in baseball (and most other sports), is extremely backwards and hypocritical.

YES! Standing ****ing Ovation, these people have this naive arse idea of what athletes are and should be through the most ridiculous expectations. They DEMAND that their athletes preform in such way in every game; yet quick to throw them under the bus if they used a nontraditional mean to do so (i.e. PED pre ban). You're GETTING what you're paying for. Simple.

ink
08-10-2009, 12:41 AM
The general stance on cheating, at least in baseball (and most other sports), is extremely backwards and hypocritical.

Maybe for the ridiculous fan that equates high pay with "perform on demand or else you get booed". But that's not what I'm saying at all. Doesn't even factor into the equation.

Again, there's no need to convolute things. Rules aren't perfect, and they aren't exhaustive, but they are PART OF THE GAME. They have got to be worked within by everyone so that the playing field is level. In sport you have to have fair and accurate measurement to determine a winner. That's a given. And that's why there are rules to try to enforce the standards needed to measure who's the best.

It's not a court of law where the law is debatable. The laws of sports are part of the sport themselves. Cheating ****s up the game, and it doesn't matter what the game is. That is as basic as it comes. If someone cheats, they should expect to get busted. And they are ALL smart enough to control every single substance that goes into their bodies.

By and large it's complete ******** when a busted athlete claims they "didn't knowingly take" any drugs. And far too many get away with things.

As for Gaylord Perry, the guy's a cheat. Sure he's a master and unlike a drug cheat, he has "special skills". That's about the only redeeming feature to his cheating. As for Carl Lewis, it's sickening to see him haul away 4 or 5 golds (or whatever it was) while other athletes have their lives ruined.


YES! Standing ****ing Ovation, these people have this naive arse idea of what athletes are and should be through the most ridiculous expectations. They DEMAND that their athletes preform in such way in every game ...

Hold on there just a second. lol. I don't know how many times I've defended players who, because of injury or any number of other reasons (Jose Calderon comes to mind) can't perform up to their OWN standards. I definitely don't expect players to perform like robots. I think a big part of sport is the game when the best players CAN'T hit their own standard. It makes the storyline far more exciting when they bounce back.

So I have no "naive arse" delusions about this. No hypocrisy at all to what I'm saying.

Spridge 76
08-10-2009, 04:41 AM
The problem, I think, is that whilst these drug rules exist you will always get the morally corrupt who will try and break the rules or defend people for breaking them.

Sadly, the only way around this is to allow everyone to take anything they want. That way those decent people who abide by the rules will have the same chance as those who cheat.

MaHaRaJaH
08-10-2009, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=ink;10483426
Hold on there just a second. lol. I don't know how many times I've defended players who, because of injury or any number of other reasons (Jose Calderon comes to mind) can't perform up to their OWN standards. I definitely don't expect players to perform like robots. I think a big part of sport is the game when the best players CAN'T hit their own standard. It makes the storyline far more exciting when they bounce back.

So I have no "naive arse" delusions about this. No hypocrisy at all to what I'm saying.[/QUOTE]

Oh no, I'm not referring to you in anyway, but it's just the outside world the people, ignorant people. The kind of savages who will praise a player for putting up 25 pts in 3 straight games, but then throw the same player under the bus for having 15 pts in the 4th game. I greatly dislike such people (im not specifically doing this for people in here; but everywhere).

MaHaRaJaH
08-10-2009, 12:31 PM
The problem, I think, is that whilst these drug rules exist you will always get the morally corrupt who will try and break the rules or defend people for breaking them.

Sadly, the only way around this is to allow everyone to take anything they want. That way those decent people who abide by the rules will have the same chance as those who cheat.

No no, keep the rule punish the rule breakers.

SagnastyinTampa
08-14-2009, 01:00 PM
Rudy Gay has come out publicly and announced that he put on 20 pounds of muscle in one summer according to an article by Matt Winkeljohn, for NBA.com. I will not go into how that is medically impossible with out a growth hormone. Fat is one thing but 20 pounds of muscle is to much. With baseball trying to crack down on performance enhancing drugs and football obviously not caring, what should basket ball fans think of it spilling into our sport?

buckeye.in.MI
08-14-2009, 03:18 PM
Steroids aren't a huge issue in the NBA. Being bigger and stronger at the expense of agility, quickness, and conditioning wouldn't appeal to most players.
I don't think the fact that Gay has "added 20 lbs of muscle" this summer damns him of steroid use either... remember both international basketball (like USA basketball) and the NBA test- Rashard Lewis just got busted for an over-the-counter "pre-steroid."

Steroids in the NBA are overblown, not an issue really.

danielleighgill
08-14-2009, 03:38 PM
Rudy Gay has come out publicly and announced that he put on 20 pounds of muscle in one summer according to an article by Matt Winkeljohn, for NBA.com. I will not go into how that is medically impossible with out a growth hormone. Fat is one thing but 20 pounds of muscle is to much. With baseball trying to crack down on performance enhancing drugs and football obviously not caring, what should basket ball fans think of it spilling into our sport?

I have to disagree with adding 20lbs of muscle over a 4 month period being impossible.

I'm 5'9" and I added 15lbs of muscle in just over 3 months last summer by doing yard work, lifting weights 3 days per week, riding my Bicycle, and running intermittenly.

I went from 175lbs and soft down to 145and cut in the first 6 weeks. By the end of the summer I was back up to 160 but more cut than I was at 150.

Rudy Gay is 6'9...stretching 20lbs of muscle over his frame doesnt seem like a smoking gun for steroid use. He's also young, I think 2 years younger than I am. It makes sense he would be filling out at this point.

PBG
08-14-2009, 06:06 PM
matt winkeljohn gets a :down: for his last name

BULLSFAN0810
08-15-2009, 05:03 AM
Nba using roids will be dumb ... Dont you know roids break down bodies , meaning being injured more ? With all the running and jumping youd be a medical hazard .

TheGsw
08-15-2009, 05:39 AM
Lame

rabzouz 96
08-15-2009, 06:57 AM
we had a thread about that a week or so ago, it should be on page 2 or 3.

MaHaRaJaH
08-15-2009, 10:12 AM
Rudy Gay has come out publicly and announced that he put on 20 pounds of muscle in one summer according to an article by Matt Winkeljohn, for NBA.com. I will not go into how that is medically impossible with out a growth hormone. Fat is one thing but 20 pounds of muscle is to much. With baseball trying to crack down on performance enhancing drugs and football obviously not caring, what should basket ball fans think of it spilling into our sport?

Muscle weighs _more_ than fat.

MaHaRaJaH
08-15-2009, 10:14 AM
Steroids aren't a huge issue in the NBA. Being bigger and stronger at the expense of agility, quickness, and conditioning wouldn't appeal to most players.


Not really the "net outcome". But remaining consistent year-round would most definitely do appeal.