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Mile High Champ
08-02-2009, 10:50 AM
Well the top 10 at each position is now complete, time to end it with the final poll's. This year we will have a vote to see who are the 10 best players in the NBA are. The format is the exact same so please make your vote for who you feel are the best player in the league. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

NBA Player Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

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Mile High Champ
08-02-2009, 10:54 AM
Poll is now up Guys...

randomness
08-02-2009, 10:55 AM
I gotta go with Lebron..

Macedonian
08-02-2009, 11:00 AM
Lebron James

Jumba
08-02-2009, 11:02 AM
Kobe, I hate him so much... He's a wrecker of dreams.

jim51990
08-02-2009, 11:14 AM
its lebron by a little bit

Uz13
08-02-2009, 11:16 AM
Meh, Kobe. I hate both players but Kobe Bryant is one of the MOST skilled players of all-time . Period.

*Kobe Bryant:

* Long Range Jumper
* Mid Range Jumper
* Jumper in the paint
* Long range fade away
* Mid Range fade away
* Fade away in the paint
* Unstoppable drive to the basket
* Amazing body control
* Amazing hang time and ability to change shot in the air
* Great court vision
* Great rebounding guard
* Pump fake-leaner jumper
* Jumper off of the spin move
* Top three all time in foot work
* Outstanding handles
* Great ability to split double teams
* Ability to shoot over double or triple teams
* And much, much more
* Ability to finish on the fast break


LeBron James:

* Decent long range jumper
* Decent mid range jumper
* Great step back in mid range
* Amazing drive to the basket
* Amazing body control in the air
* Great court vision
* Great rebounding
* Amazing ability to finish the fast break
* Very good handles for a small forward

* From Fwarr03.
Lebron may be more athletic , but skill set wise it's kobe.

Sox Appeal
08-02-2009, 11:19 AM
There isn't another player in the NBA today that's in same stratosphere as LeBron James. The season he pulled down this year was nothing short of sensational, and it should be considered as one of the best seasons of all-time. He's the youngest player since Moses Malone in '79 to win an MVP award, and after the historic post-season he had this year -- granted he didn't win the title, but there isn't another player in the league that could have gotten as much out of that roster as he did -- he's well ahead of the pace Jordan was at the age of 24.

LeBron makes everyone around him better. Unlike Kobe, LeBron has never had the luxury of playing with multiple future Hall of Famers, while Kobe has played with three players that are either in, or will be in the HOF. He's never had the best coach in the history of the game on his sidelines, and LeBron is yet to play with somebody that's been included in an all-star game. (I'm not going to count Mo Williams, because 3 players had to back out for him to get into the AS Game.)

One thing casual fans always seem to say is, "LeBron needs a defensive team around him to win a title." That my friends, is wrong. He could win a title with an offensive minded team, a defensive minded team, whatever team it doesn't matter. If you surround LeBron with a respectable supporting cast, and a coach that won't completely shut down half way through a playoff series, you'll win a title, period.

I'm also sick of hearing that Kobe is light years ahead of LeBron on the defensive side of the floor, because that simply isn't the case anymore. Considering that LeBron defended the other team's best scorer every night, played the free-safety role better than anyone since Scottie Pippen, defended four different positions, allowed his team to play small or big, and always seemed to have one momentum-altering block per game, I don't see how you couldn't give LeBron the nod on the defensive side of the floor.

Some people may say, "Oh, well all of that may be well and true, but LeBron is still a terrible on ball defender," again, that's wrong. Let's take a gander at a few of the players stats that LeBron was defending in the playoffs, shall we?

Tayshaun Prince's first round playoff stats:

PPG: 3.8 APG: 3.3 RPG: 3.5 FG%: .259 OWS(Offensive Win Shares): -0.4 PER: -0.4

Joe Johnson's conference semi-finals stats:

PPG: 15.0 APG: 4.3 REB 4.5 FG%: .419 OWS: -0.3 PER: 12.5

As you can see, Joe Johnson and Tayshaun Prince both exposed LeBron James for what he really is; an average help-side defender, who doesn't have the defensive skills, to hang with the best players of league, on that side of the floor.

I really hope you can sense the sarcasm.

I'll give you this one. Kobe is the better shooter then James, I mean he shoots the better overall percentage from the Field, and from 3. Oh wait.. LeBron is actually better in both those categories. This is another aspect of his game which he's really improved. If you've noticed, every year since coming into the league, he's taken whatever his weakness was the previous year, and turned it into a strength. If LeBron had the luxury of playing with Kobe's supporting cast, I honestly believe he would shoot over 55% from the field. Which would be unheard of for a perimeter player in today's game. With the supporting cast he has now, teams try to do whatever they can to keep LeBron from scoring the basketball, because of his lack for a supporting cast. The same can't be said for Kobe, he has one of the most talented supporting casts in all of the NBA. When Odom is playing well, the Lakers have 4 of the games Top 20 players.

So you know, Kobe actually has a higher career 3PT% then MJ.

Joe Johnson and Tayshaun Prince weren't the only quality players that had their stats drop significantly when they played the Cavs.Let's take those guys out of the discussion, let's use Kobe as an example, since LeBron is such a horrific defender, I'm sure Kobe took LeBrons lunch. He didn't. Kobe had a significant drop off in points, shooting percentage, and 3PT percentage, while also averaging nearly a turnover more per game against LeBron.

But yeah, LeBron is a bad defender.

The same people that continue to say LeBron is a bad defender, are the same people that are saying LeBron isn't clutch, when in reality, he's the best closer in the game. I truly feel sorry for the people that are failing to realize his greatness, and the people who don't see, what LeBron is doing at his age is simply unheard of. He's so far ahead of Kobe, and he's even ahead of Jordan, when those two players where at LeBron's age. There's a reason so many people (including the NBA logo himself, Jerry West) believe LeBron will retire as the greatest player that has ever lived.

For those of you who say Kobe is better then LeBron because he's won a championship, I want you to think about this. Robert Horry has 7 championship rings, does that make him better then Michael Jordan? Adam Morrison has a championship ring, does that make him better then Karl Malone? Of course not. Nobody wins a championship without help, Kobe's had help, time, and time again in his career, when he hasn't, he's failed.

The same can't be said for James. He's been out of the first round in each of the last four seasons, including one trip to the NBA Finals, and a pair of trips to the conference finals. LeBron has done far "more with less" then Kobe ever has. LeBron can single handily put a team on his back, and carry them deep into the playoffs, that simply isn't the case for Kobe. He's yet to get out of the first round playoffs, without another all-star big man playing along side him.

Kobe and LeBron both faced off against the Orlando Magic in this years NBA playoffs. LeBrons Cavs lost to them in the Conference Finals, Kobes Lakers beat them in the NBA Finals. Let's take a look at each of the players stats, from when they played the Magic.

Kobe's playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 32.4 APG: 7.4 REB: 5.6 FG%: .430 WS (Win Shares): 4.8 PER: 26.8

LeBron James playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 38.5 REB: 8.3 APG: 8.0 FG%: .487 WS (Win Shares): 4.7 PER: 37.4

The stats above clearly show, LeBron is the superior player between he and Kobe, the only reason this is even still a debate, is because Kobe is playing with one of the best supporting casts in the league, while having the greatest coach in the history of the game on his sidelines. If Kobe and LeBron switched places, the Cavaliers would be nothing more then a middle of the pack team in the Eastern Conference, whereas the Lakers would be the favorites to not only win next years NBA title, but they would be the favorites to win the next 12.

No disrespect to Kobe Bryant, because after LBJ he's probably my favorite player to watch, but anybody who truly believes he's better then LeBron at this point in his career, is out of their minds.

kswissdaf
08-02-2009, 11:20 AM
LeBron had never won a finals game. Lebron<Dwade<Kobe

bahama0811
08-02-2009, 11:20 AM
As physically ill as it makes me I've gotta say Kobe.

bctgg27
08-02-2009, 11:20 AM
The fact that Lebron takes three steps almost every time he goes for a dunk hurts his case. It's Kobe.

Uz13
08-02-2009, 11:24 AM
LeBron makes everyone around him better.
[QUOTE]

Umm...Most of James passes are to his teammates who are already spotted up, he isn't a motivator Such as Kobe who expands his teammate's games.
[QUOTE=Sox Appeal;10386349]
Kobe's playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 32.4 APG: 7.4 REB: 5.6 FG%: .430 WS (Win Shares): 4.8 PER: 26.8

LeBron James playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 38.5 REB: 8.3 APG: 8.0 FG%: .487 WS (Win Shares): 4.7 PER: 37.4



Pfft. Stop it with the Stats. Stats don't mean everything. Did you see how stagnant the Cavs offense when they faced the Magic?

Sox Appeal
08-02-2009, 11:29 AM
[QUOTE=Sox Appeal;10386349]
LeBron makes everyone around him better.
[/B][QUOTE]

Umm...Most of James passes are to his teammates who are already spotted up, he isn't a motivator Such as Kobe who his teamates's games.


Pfft. Stop it with the Stats. Stats don't mean everything. Did you see how stagnant the Cavs offense was once they faced the Cavs.

English please.

Lakergirl24
08-02-2009, 11:30 AM
Here we go again with another Kobe/Lebron debate

Uz13
08-02-2009, 11:31 AM
[QUOTE=Uz13;10386381][QUOTE=Sox Appeal;10386349]
LeBron makes everyone around him better.
[/B]

English please.

Yes it's edited. My keyboard has like food between the keys.

theBraveRocket
08-02-2009, 11:38 AM
There isn't another player in the NBA today that's in same stratosphere as LeBron James. The season he pulled down this year was nothing short of sensational, and it should be considered as one of the best seasons of all-time. He's the youngest player since Moses Malone in '79 to win an MVP award, and after the historic post-season he had this year -- granted he didn't win the title, but there isn't another player in the league that could have gotten as much out of that roster as he did -- he's well ahead of the pace Jordan was at the age of 24.

LeBron makes everyone around him better. Unlike Kobe, LeBron has never had the luxury of playing with multiple future Hall of Famers, while Kobe has played with three players that are either in, or will be in the HOF. He's never had the best coach in the history of the game on his sidelines, and LeBron is yet to play with somebody that's been included in an all-star game. (I'm not going to count Mo Williams, because 3 players had to back out for him to get into the AS Game.)

One thing casual fans always seem to say is, "LeBron needs a defensive team around him to win a title." That my friends, is wrong. He could win a title with an offensive minded team, a defensive minded team, whatever team it doesn't matter. If you surround LeBron with a respectable supporting cast, and a coach that won't completely shut down half way through a playoff series, you'll win a title, period.

I'm also sick of hearing that Kobe is light years ahead of LeBron on the defensive side of the floor, because that simply isn't the case anymore. Considering that LeBron defended the other team's best scorer every night, played the free-safety role better than anyone since Scottie Pippen, defended four different positions, allowed his team to play small or big, and always seemed to have one momentum-altering block per game, I don't see how you couldn't give LeBron the nod on the defensive side of the floor.

Some people may say, "Oh, well all of that may be well and true, but LeBron is still a terrible on ball defender," again, that's wrong. Let's take a gander at a few of the players stats that LeBron was defending in the playoffs, shall we?

Tayshaun Prince's first round playoff stats:

PPG: 3.8 APG: 3.3 RPG: 3.5 FG%: .259 OWS(Offensive Win Shares): -0.4 PER: -0.4

Joe Johnson's conference semi-finals stats:

PPG: 15.0 APG: 4.3 REB 4.5 FG%: .419 OWS: -0.3 PER: 12.5

As you can see, Joe Johnson and Tayshaun Prince both exposed LeBron James for what he really is; an average help-side defender, who doesn't have the defensive skills, to hang with the best players of league, on that side of the floor.

I really hope you can sense the sarcasm.

I'll give you this one. Kobe is the better shooter then James, I mean he shoots the better overall percentage from the Field, and from 3. Oh wait.. LeBron is actually better in both those categories. This is another aspect of his game which he's really improved. If you've noticed, every year since coming into the league, he's taken whatever his weakness was the previous year, and turned it into a strength. If LeBron had the luxury of playing with Kobe's supporting cast, I honestly believe he would shoot over 55% from the field. Which would be unheard of for a perimeter player in today's game. With the supporting cast he has now, teams try to do whatever they can to keep LeBron from scoring the basketball, because of his lack for a supporting cast. The same can't be said for Kobe, he has one of the most talented supporting casts in all of the NBA. When Odom is playing well, the Lakers have 4 of the games Top 20 players.

So you know, Kobe actually has a higher career 3PT% then MJ.

Joe Johnson and Tayshaun Prince weren't the only quality players that had their stats drop significantly when they played the Cavs.Let's take those guys out of the discussion, let's use Kobe as an example, since LeBron is such a horrific defender, I'm sure Kobe took LeBrons lunch. He didn't. Kobe had a significant drop off in points, shooting percentage, and 3PT percentage, while also averaging nearly a turnover more per game against LeBron.

But yeah, LeBron is a bad defender.

The same people that continue to say LeBron is a bad defender, are the same people that are saying LeBron isn't clutch, when in reality, he's the best closer in the game. I truly feel sorry for the people that are failing to realize his greatness, and the people who don't see, what LeBron is doing at his age is simply unheard of. He's so far ahead of Kobe, and he's even ahead of Jordan, when those two players where at LeBron's age. There's a reason so many people (including the NBA logo himself, Jerry West) believe LeBron will retire as the greatest player that has ever lived.

For those of you who say Kobe is better then LeBron because he's won a championship, I want you to think about this. Robert Horry has 7 championship rings, does that make him better then Michael Jordan? Adam Morrison has a championship ring, does that make him better then Karl Malone? Of course not. Nobody wins a championship without help, Kobe's had help, time, and time again in his career, when he hasn't, he's failed.

The same can't be said for James. He's been out of the first round in each of the last four seasons, including one trip to the NBA Finals, and a pair of trips to the conference finals. LeBron has done far "more with less" then Kobe ever has. LeBron can single handily put a team on his back, and carry them deep into the playoffs, that simply isn't the case for Kobe. He's yet to get out of the first round playoffs, without another all-star big man playing along side him.

Kobe and LeBron both faced off against the Orlando Magic in this years NBA playoffs. LeBrons Cavs lost to them in the Conference Finals, Kobes Lakers beat them in the NBA Finals. Let's take a look at each of the players stats, from when they played the Magic.

Kobe's playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 32.4 APG: 7.4 REB: 5.6 FG%: .430 WS (Win Shares): 4.8 PER: 26.8

LeBron James playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 38.5 REB: 8.3 APG: 8.0 FG%: .487 WS (Win Shares): 4.7 PER: 37.4

The stats above clearly show, LeBron is the superior player between he and Kobe, the only reason this is even still a debate, is because Kobe is playing with one of the best supporting casts in the league, while having the greatest coach in the history of the game on his sidelines. If Kobe and LeBron switched places, the Cavaliers would be nothing more then a middle of the pack team in the Eastern Conference, whereas the Lakers would be the favorites to not only win next years NBA title, but they would be the favorites to win the next 12.

No disrespect to Kobe Bryant, because after LBJ he's probably my favorite player to watch, but anybody who truly believes he's better then LeBron at this point in his career, is out of their minds.

sounds like someone has a man crush

Sox Appeal
08-02-2009, 11:41 AM
LeBron had never won a finals game. Lebron<Dwade<Kobe

Robert Horry has won more finals games than Michael Jordan, so I guess that makes Horry a better player. Adam Morrison has a championship ring, so I guess that makes him better than Karl Malone.

I hate when people use championships to decide who the best player is. Winning a title has more to do with the team as hole, than it does as an individual player. If you honestly think LeBron couldn't have won any of those championship rings, you're simply out of your mind.

Sox Appeal
08-02-2009, 11:41 AM
sounds like someone has a man crush

Not really. Just lookin' at the facts.

Uz13
08-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Not really. Just lookin' at the facts.

Could you quit being an ESPN analysis? Do you watch basketball , it sounds you spend your entire day at the ESPN scoreboards.

Lakergirl24
08-02-2009, 11:47 AM
LeBron had never won a finals game. Lebron<Dwade<Kobe

To add my two cents in, how can one be the greatest in the league (ie Lebron) if he's never won on the biggest stage. He's been to the finals 1 time and couldnt even win 1 game. Saying that he puts up the best stats doesnt make him the best if he cant win the big one. Heck, Mcgrady put up amazing numbers when he was lebrons age. Did that make him the best?

kb24ap28
08-02-2009, 11:57 AM
The fact that Lebron takes three steps almost every time he goes for a dunk hurts his case. It's Kobe.

exactly! yeah lebron is really good but it really confuses me as to why everyone overlooks the fact that he travels a lot

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 11:58 AM
^ Actually it did. Tmac was the best individual player in the game when he was in Orlando. His problem, like LeBron, is the lack of supporting cast that would help him to win.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 11:58 AM
As an individual player, its LeBron. And it won't turn into a LeBron vs Kobe thread after pick 1 is finalized.

Sox Appeal
08-02-2009, 11:59 AM
To add my two cents in, how can one be the greatest in the league (ie Lebron) if he's never won on the biggest stage. He's been to the finals 1 time and couldnt even win 1 game. Saying that he puts up the best stats doesnt make him the best if he cant win the big one. Heck, Mcgrady put up amazing numbers when he was lebrons age. Did that make him the best?

That's such a terrible way to judge who the best player is. Jordan didn't win a title until he was 30 years old, and because of that he wasn't thought of the best player in the game until Bird, Magic, etc all retired. When looking back at in hindsight, it's pretty obvious Jordan was the best player in the league from the second he stepped onto the court. Regardless of whether or not he's won a championship.

Something I should point out is, LeBron has been out of the first round in each of the last four seasons, including one trip to the NBA Finals, and a pair of trips to the conference finals. Kobe on the other hand has never been out of the first round, without another All-Star big man playing along-side him. The proof is in the pudding, LeBron can simply do "more with less" then Kobe can.

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 12:00 PM
To add my two cents in, how can one be the greatest in the league (ie Lebron) if he's never won on the biggest stage. He's been to the finals 1 time and couldnt even win 1 game. Saying that he puts up the best stats doesnt make him the best if he cant win the big one. Heck, Mcgrady put up amazing numbers when he was lebrons age. Did that make him the best?

HE couldn't win one game... Exactly.
No-one on their own can win an entire game, let alone against the best team in the NBA at that time, San Antonio Spurs. Did you even know the trash he had around him??
The next best player on that team was Zydrunas Ilgauskas (no disrespect to Big Z) other than him it was complete garbage.
For the Cavs to even get to the finals that year was a miracle, almost entirely down to LeBron, so your argument is futile.

Overall LeBron is now the better player, and Kobe handed over that title last season.

Sox Appeal
08-02-2009, 12:00 PM
HE couldn't win one game... Exactly.
No-one on their own can win an entire game, let alone against the best team in the NBA at that time, San Antonio Spurs. Did you even know the trash he had around him??
The next best player on that team was Zydrunas Ilgauskas (no disrespect to Big Z) other than him it was complete garbage.
For the Cavs to even get to the finals that year was a miracle, almost entirely down to LeBron, so your argument is futile.

Overall LeBron is now the better player, and Kobe handed over that title last season.

My thoughts exactly.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 12:00 PM
To add my two cents in, how can one be the greatest in the league (ie Lebron) if he's never won on the biggest stage. He's been to the finals 1 time and couldnt even win 1 game. Saying that he puts up the best stats doesnt make him the best if he cant win the big one. Heck, Mcgrady put up amazing numbers when he was lebrons age. Did that make him the best?

Michael Jordan was the best player in the world by 1989, 2 years before he won his first ring. A guy who never won a ring during his career, ala Malone or Stockton, can be judged that way. Not a 24 year old who is entering his prime, and the best individual player. Teams win rings, not individuals.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 12:01 PM
I very honestly dislike Kobe. I don't really like LeBron. I actually like Wade better than either but in today's NBA the top three players are:
LeBron
Kobe
Wade

The poll should have started from there.

On the bright side, at least if a Laker player gets really high in this poll it will be semi-legit, unlike that Bargz is the 5th best center in the league debacle.

Uz13
08-02-2009, 12:02 PM
HE couldn't win one game... Exactly.
No-one on their own can win an entire game, let alone against the best team in the NBA at that time, San Antonio Spurs. Did you even know the trash he had around him??
The next best player on that team was Zydrunas Ilgauskas (no disrespect to Big Z) other than him it was complete garbage.
For the Cavs to even get to the finals that year was a miracle, almost entirely down to LeBron, so your argument is futile.

Overall LeBron is now the better player, and Kobe handed over that title last season.

Tell me why he's better..

dee279
08-02-2009, 12:10 PM
Wade

Freshed
08-02-2009, 12:10 PM
kobe is the best player in the nba, he is the most skilled player with his all around game. you cant compare kobe and lebron. lebron has a better body than kobe which makes him hard to stop, lebron can slash to the basket with his strength. all im saying is that lebron WOULD NOT be as dominant as he would be without his built body. kobe has more skills to create and score.

mikantsass
08-02-2009, 12:17 PM
Even though i hate him it has to be Kobe. Period.

Young and Stupid
08-02-2009, 12:19 PM
kobe is the best player in the nba, he is the most skilled player with his all around game. you cant compare kobe and lebron. lebron has a better body than kobe which makes him hard to stop, lebron can slash to the basket with his strength. all im saying is that lebron WOULD NOT be as dominant as he would be without his built body. kobe has more skills to create and score.

Point being? To me part of skill is an individual's body, people call it "god-given talent" the body is part of that. That's like saying Shaq wouldn't be able to dominate like he did if he wasn't 7'0 - 300lbs, but he is. LeBron is a better all-around player, he is better than Kobe in every facet of the game except shooting, Kobe hits harder shots and has a more consistent jumpshot. LeBron is a better leader, a better passer, and a better rebounder. Kobe is a better scorer, but LeBron is a better player.
Period, point blank - Adam "Pacman" Jones

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 12:23 PM
Tell me why he's better..

Refer to Sox Appeal's first post...


Originally Posted by Sox Appeal
There isn't another player in the NBA today that's in same stratosphere as LeBron James. The season he pulled down this year was nothing short of sensational, and it should be considered as one of the best seasons of all-time. He's the youngest player since Moses Malone in '79 to win an MVP award, and after the historic post-season he had this year -- granted he didn't win the title, but there isn't another player in the league that could have gotten as much out of that roster as he did -- he's well ahead of the pace Jordan was at the age of 24.

LeBron makes everyone around him better. Unlike Kobe, LeBron has never had the luxury of playing with multiple future Hall of Famers, while Kobe has played with three players that are either in, or will be in the HOF. He's never had the best coach in the history of the game on his sidelines, and LeBron is yet to play with somebody that's been included in an all-star game. (I'm not going to count Mo Williams, because 3 players had to back out for him to get into the AS Game.)

One thing casual fans always seem to say is, "LeBron needs a defensive team around him to win a title." That my friends, is wrong. He could win a title with an offensive minded team, a defensive minded team, whatever team it doesn't matter. If you surround LeBron with a respectable supporting cast, and a coach that won't completely shut down half way through a playoff series, you'll win a title, period.

I'm also sick of hearing that Kobe is light years ahead of LeBron on the defensive side of the floor, because that simply isn't the case anymore. Considering that LeBron defended the other team's best scorer every night, played the free-safety role better than anyone since Scottie Pippen, defended four different positions, allowed his team to play small or big, and always seemed to have one momentum-altering block per game, I don't see how you couldn't give LeBron the nod on the defensive side of the floor.

Some people may say, "Oh, well all of that may be well and true, but LeBron is still a terrible on ball defender," again, that's wrong. Let's take a gander at a few of the players stats that LeBron was defending in the playoffs, shall we?

Tayshaun Prince's first round playoff stats:

PPG: 3.8 APG: 3.3 RPG: 3.5 FG%: .259 OWS(Offensive Win Shares): -0.4 PER: -0.4

Joe Johnson's conference semi-finals stats:

PPG: 15.0 APG: 4.3 REB 4.5 FG%: .419 OWS: -0.3 PER: 12.5

As you can see, Joe Johnson and Tayshaun Prince both exposed LeBron James for what he really is; an average help-side defender, who doesn't have the defensive skills, to hang with the best players of league, on that side of the floor.

I really hope you can sense the sarcasm.

I'll give you this one. Kobe is the better shooter then James, I mean he shoots the better overall percentage from the Field, and from 3. Oh wait.. LeBron is actually better in both those categories. This is another aspect of his game which he's really improved. If you've noticed, every year since coming into the league, he's taken whatever his weakness was the previous year, and turned it into a strength. If LeBron had the luxury of playing with Kobe's supporting cast, I honestly believe he would shoot over 55% from the field. Which would be unheard of for a perimeter player in today's game. With the supporting cast he has now, teams try to do whatever they can to keep LeBron from scoring the basketball, because of his lack for a supporting cast. The same can't be said for Kobe, he has one of the most talented supporting casts in all of the NBA. When Odom is playing well, the Lakers have 4 of the games Top 20 players.

So you know, Kobe actually has a higher career 3PT% then MJ.

Joe Johnson and Tayshaun Prince weren't the only quality players that had their stats drop significantly when they played the Cavs.Let's take those guys out of the discussion, let's use Kobe as an example, since LeBron is such a horrific defender, I'm sure Kobe took LeBrons lunch. He didn't. Kobe had a significant drop off in points, shooting percentage, and 3PT percentage, while also averaging nearly a turnover more per game against LeBron.

But yeah, LeBron is a bad defender.

The same people that continue to say LeBron is a bad defender, are the same people that are saying LeBron isn't clutch, when in reality, he's the best closer in the game. I truly feel sorry for the people that are failing to realize his greatness, and the people who don't see, what LeBron is doing at his age is simply unheard of. He's so far ahead of Kobe, and he's even ahead of Jordan, when those two players where at LeBron's age. There's a reason so many people (including the NBA logo himself, Jerry West) believe LeBron will retire as the greatest player that has ever lived.

For those of you who say Kobe is better then LeBron because he's won a championship, I want you to think about this. Robert Horry has 7 championship rings, does that make him better then Michael Jordan? Adam Morrison has a championship ring, does that make him better then Karl Malone? Of course not. Nobody wins a championship without help, Kobe's had help, time, and time again in his career, when he hasn't, he's failed.

The same can't be said for James. He's been out of the first round in each of the last four seasons, including one trip to the NBA Finals, and a pair of trips to the conference finals. LeBron has done far "more with less" then Kobe ever has. LeBron can single handily put a team on his back, and carry them deep into the playoffs, that simply isn't the case for Kobe. He's yet to get out of the first round playoffs, without another all-star big man playing along side him.

Kobe and LeBron both faced off against the Orlando Magic in this years NBA playoffs. LeBrons Cavs lost to them in the Conference Finals, Kobes Lakers beat them in the NBA Finals. Let's take a look at each of the players stats, from when they played the Magic.

Kobe's playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 32.4 APG: 7.4 REB: 5.6 FG%: .430 WS (Win Shares): 4.8 PER: 26.8

LeBron James playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 38.5 REB: 8.3 APG: 8.0 FG%: .487 WS (Win Shares): 4.7 PER: 37.4

The stats above clearly show, LeBron is the superior player between he and Kobe, the only reason this is even still a debate, is because Kobe is playing with one of the best supporting casts in the league, while having the greatest coach in the history of the game on his sidelines. If Kobe and LeBron switched places, the Cavaliers would be nothing more then a middle of the pack team in the Eastern Conference, whereas the Lakers would be the favorites to not only win next years NBA title, but they would be the favorites to win the next 12.

No disrespect to Kobe Bryant, because after LBJ he's probably my favorite player to watch, but anybody who truly believes he's better then LeBron at this point in his career, is out of their minds.

But if your still looking for a reason, look at the numbers:

LeBron James: 28.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 7.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.1 bpg, 48.9 fg%, 34.4 3pt%, 78, ft%

Kobe Bryant: 26.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.4 bpg, 46.7 fg%, 35.1 3pt%, 85.6 ft%

Better in every category except 3pt% and ft%, two areas that LeBron has significantly improved over his career so far, and will continue to improve.

AIsixersFK
08-02-2009, 12:24 PM
Kobe didnt get dunked on at his camp so.................

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Point being? To me part of skill is an individual's body, people call it "god-given talent" the body is part of that. That's like saying Shaq wouldn't be able to dominate like he did if he wasn't 7'0 - 300lbs, but he is. LeBron is a better all-around player, he is better than Kobe in every facet of the game except shooting, Kobe hits harder shots and has a more consistent jumpshot. LeBron is a better leader, a better passer, and a better rebounder. Kobe is a better scorer, but LeBron is a better player.
Period, point blank - Adam "Pacman" Jones

all true. And what I find interesting is, Laker fans used to defend Shaq for the same criticism they give LeBron. They he relies on physical ability and size moreso than skill. It don't matter how you get 29-7-7. You just did.

Lakergirl24
08-02-2009, 12:30 PM
That's such a terrible way to judge who the best player is. Jordan didn't win a title until he was 30 years old, and because of that he wasn't thought of the best player in the game until Bird, Magic, etc all retired. When looking back at in hindsight, it's pretty obvious Jordan was the best player in the league from the second he stepped onto the court. Regardless of whether or not he's won a championship.

Something I should point out is, LeBron has been out of the first round in each of the last four seasons, including one trip to the NBA Finals, and a pair of trips to the conference finals. Kobe on the other hand has never been out of the first round, without another All-Star big man playing along-side him. The proof is in the pudding, LeBron can simply do "more with less" then Kobe can.

All Im saying is, until Lebron wins a championship, he will never be viewed as the best. How can you be the best when you get knocked out of the playoffs every year. He's a great player but not the best. If he wins a championship, then you can make a case

Lakergirl24
08-02-2009, 12:34 PM
HE couldn't win one game... Exactly.
No-one on their own can win an entire game, let alone against the best team in the NBA at that time, San Antonio Spurs. Did you even know the trash he had around him??
The next best player on that team was Zydrunas Ilgauskas (no disrespect to Big Z) other than him it was complete garbage.
For the Cavs to even get to the finals that year was a miracle, almost entirely down to LeBron, so your argument is futile.

Overall LeBron is now the better player, and Kobe handed over that title last season.

Umm, put it this way...can you name one aspect of Kobe';s game that is flawed or that he cant do well? Then looks at lebrons game. He has flaws...Not a very good free throw shooter, not a good perimeter shooter, etc.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 12:34 PM
All Im saying is, until Lebron wins a championship, he will never be viewed as the best. How can you be the best when you get knocked out of the playoffs every year. He's a great player but not the best. If he wins a championship, then you can make a case

I can't agree with that. Not for a player who isn't even halfway into his career. What he, and I later, said, was MJ was the best player in the world by 1989. 2 years before he won his ring. You can not penalize someone for not having a great supporting cast, and the best coach of all time with him, or for not walking in as a 20 year old, and having the most dominant center in history on his team. Individual play is what dictates who is better. And if you really believe that Kobe could do any better, or even the same with what LeBron has, that is hilarious. But, this is all a ridic argument. It is what Kobe fans have, the rings. They have no other argument.
Robert Horry is better than Kobe Bryant. He has more rings. That makes sense, right?

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 12:35 PM
All Im saying is, until Lebron wins a championship, he will never be viewed as the best. How can you be the best when you get knocked out of the playoffs every year. He's a great player but not the best. If he wins a championship, then you can make a case

That is a ******** argument and always has been. Steve Kerr has, what, 4-5 rings. I guess that makes him better than Stockton and in the same category as Magic for best point guards ever.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 12:37 PM
Umm, put it this way...can you name one aspect of Kobe';s game that is flawed or that he cant do well? Then looks at lebrons game. He has flaws...Not a very good free throw shooter, not a good perimeter shooter, etc.

That is nitpicking LeBron's game. He shoots virtually the same from 3 now, and is a far superior rebounder and passer than Kobe is. On top of that, he has now started to dominate on the defensive side.
Here ya go, Kobe can't barrel thru the lane, past 3 guys bodying him, and dunk on the other teams center. LeBron can.

Young and Stupid
08-02-2009, 12:39 PM
Kobe is gonna win this poll because Lakers fans have an inability to see things how they really are. Bynum was voted #4 center last year, #4 come the fu.k on. Swap LeBron and Kobe and wow. I say the Cavs are the 5-8 seed and prob get booted in the first round and I don't even where the Lakers would be.

Young and Stupid
08-02-2009, 12:42 PM
Umm, put it this way...can you name one aspect of Kobe';s game that is flawed or that he cant do well? Then looks at lebrons game. He has flaws...Not a very good free throw shooter, not a good perimeter shooter, etc.

Oooo me me. I got a couple. Effiency, he scores at a high clip, but he takes a lot of shots to do so, taking high scoring chances away from players like Gasol and Bynum that can score more efficiently. He's not the greatest leader in the world, I don't care about Kobe Doin' Work he was acting he isn't a great leader and was considered a cancer until two years ago. And...he got caught raping a girl, LeBron didn't. I win.

J_M_B
08-02-2009, 12:44 PM
Kobe didnt get dunked on at his camp so.................

Well Kobe's camp was for children under the age of 10. Unless their was a 6 foot 9 year old, I wouldn't expect him to get dunked on. :D

Toenail Clipper
08-02-2009, 12:44 PM
It's Kobe you rtards.
Do you see the quality shots that Kobe make?
He spins and does all those pivots moves and makes hard shots.
It's not how many you score, it's HOW you score.
Unlike LeBrick, he dunks 24/7

phillychi009
08-02-2009, 12:46 PM
kobe

zambo4president
08-02-2009, 12:46 PM
Kobe all day.

Catfish1314
08-02-2009, 12:47 PM
LeBron carried a mediocre supporting cast to the Eastern Conference Finals. He was leaps and bound better defensively this season than he has been for the first 5 years of his career.

For the longest time, I've stood by Kobe being the best player in the NBA but based on last season, LeBron has surpassed him. Kobe was the best player on the team that won the championship this year, but he has several luxuries around him LeBron doesn't have. And LeBron almost made it to the Finals anyway.

Young and Stupid
08-02-2009, 12:48 PM
It's Kobe you rtards.
Do you see the quality shots that Kobe make?
He spins and does all those pivots moves and makes hard shots.
It's not how many you score, it's HOW you score.
Unlike LeBrick, he dunks 24/7

You're right. Shaq isn't the greatest center of the past decade because all he does is dunk (its so boring, god). The best center of the past decade is Big Z because he scores with the sky hook. Duh, who didnt know that. Its not how many you score, its how you score.

Uz13
08-02-2009, 12:52 PM
kobe is the best player in the nba, he is the most skilled player with his all around game. you cant compare kobe and lebron. lebron has a better body than kobe which makes him hard to stop, lebron can slash to the basket with his strength. all im saying is that lebron WOULD NOT be as dominant as he would be without his built body. kobe has more skills to create and score.

Exactly.

GAWDtv
08-02-2009, 12:52 PM
There isn't another player in the NBA today that's in same stratosphere as LeBron James. The season he pulled down this year was nothing short of sensational, and it should be considered as one of the best seasons of all-time. He's the youngest player since Moses Malone in '79 to win an MVP award, and after the historic post-season he had this year -- granted he didn't win the title, but there isn't another player in the league that could have gotten as much out of that roster as he did -- he's well ahead of the pace Jordan was at the age of 24.

LeBron makes everyone around him better. Unlike Kobe, LeBron has never had the luxury of playing with multiple future Hall of Famers, while Kobe has played with three players that are either in, or will be in the HOF. He's never had the best coach in the history of the game on his sidelines, and LeBron is yet to play with somebody that's been included in an all-star game. (I'm not going to count Mo Williams, because 3 players had to back out for him to get into the AS Game.)

One thing casual fans always seem to say is, "LeBron needs a defensive team around him to win a title." That my friends, is wrong. He could win a title with an offensive minded team, a defensive minded team, whatever team it doesn't matter. If you surround LeBron with a respectable supporting cast, and a coach that won't completely shut down half way through a playoff series, you'll win a title, period.

I'm also sick of hearing that Kobe is light years ahead of LeBron on the defensive side of the floor, because that simply isn't the case anymore. Considering that LeBron defended the other team's best scorer every night, played the free-safety role better than anyone since Scottie Pippen, defended four different positions, allowed his team to play small or big, and always seemed to have one momentum-altering block per game, I don't see how you couldn't give LeBron the nod on the defensive side of the floor.

Some people may say, "Oh, well all of that may be well and true, but LeBron is still a terrible on ball defender," again, that's wrong. Let's take a gander at a few of the players stats that LeBron was defending in the playoffs, shall we?

Tayshaun Prince's first round playoff stats:

PPG: 3.8 APG: 3.3 RPG: 3.5 FG%: .259 OWS(Offensive Win Shares): -0.4 PER: -0.4

Joe Johnson's conference semi-finals stats:

PPG: 15.0 APG: 4.3 REB 4.5 FG%: .419 OWS: -0.3 PER: 12.5

As you can see, Joe Johnson and Tayshaun Prince both exposed LeBron James for what he really is; an average help-side defender, who doesn't have the defensive skills, to hang with the best players of league, on that side of the floor.

I really hope you can sense the sarcasm.

I'll give you this one. Kobe is the better shooter then James, I mean he shoots the better overall percentage from the Field, and from 3. Oh wait.. LeBron is actually better in both those categories. This is another aspect of his game which he's really improved. If you've noticed, every year since coming into the league, he's taken whatever his weakness was the previous year, and turned it into a strength. If LeBron had the luxury of playing with Kobe's supporting cast, I honestly believe he would shoot over 55% from the field. Which would be unheard of for a perimeter player in today's game. With the supporting cast he has now, teams try to do whatever they can to keep LeBron from scoring the basketball, because of his lack for a supporting cast. The same can't be said for Kobe, he has one of the most talented supporting casts in all of the NBA. When Odom is playing well, the Lakers have 4 of the games Top 20 players.

So you know, Kobe actually has a higher career 3PT% then MJ.

Joe Johnson and Tayshaun Prince weren't the only quality players that had their stats drop significantly when they played the Cavs.Let's take those guys out of the discussion, let's use Kobe as an example, since LeBron is such a horrific defender, I'm sure Kobe took LeBrons lunch. He didn't. Kobe had a significant drop off in points, shooting percentage, and 3PT percentage, while also averaging nearly a turnover more per game against LeBron.

But yeah, LeBron is a bad defender.

The same people that continue to say LeBron is a bad defender, are the same people that are saying LeBron isn't clutch, when in reality, he's the best closer in the game. I truly feel sorry for the people that are failing to realize his greatness, and the people who don't see, what LeBron is doing at his age is simply unheard of. He's so far ahead of Kobe, and he's even ahead of Jordan, when those two players where at LeBron's age. There's a reason so many people (including the NBA logo himself, Jerry West) believe LeBron will retire as the greatest player that has ever lived.

For those of you who say Kobe is better then LeBron because he's won a championship, I want you to think about this. Robert Horry has 7 championship rings, does that make him better then Michael Jordan? Adam Morrison has a championship ring, does that make him better then Karl Malone? Of course not. Nobody wins a championship without help, Kobe's had help, time, and time again in his career, when he hasn't, he's failed.

The same can't be said for James. He's been out of the first round in each of the last four seasons, including one trip to the NBA Finals, and a pair of trips to the conference finals. LeBron has done far "more with less" then Kobe ever has. LeBron can single handily put a team on his back, and carry them deep into the playoffs, that simply isn't the case for Kobe. He's yet to get out of the first round playoffs, without another all-star big man playing along side him.

Kobe and LeBron both faced off against the Orlando Magic in this years NBA playoffs. LeBrons Cavs lost to them in the Conference Finals, Kobes Lakers beat them in the NBA Finals. Let's take a look at each of the players stats, from when they played the Magic.

Kobe's playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 32.4 APG: 7.4 REB: 5.6 FG%: .430 WS (Win Shares): 4.8 PER: 26.8

LeBron James playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 38.5 REB: 8.3 APG: 8.0 FG%: .487 WS (Win Shares): 4.7 PER: 37.4

The stats above clearly show, LeBron is the superior player between he and Kobe, the only reason this is even still a debate, is because Kobe is playing with one of the best supporting casts in the league, while having the greatest coach in the history of the game on his sidelines. If Kobe and LeBron switched places, the Cavaliers would be nothing more then a middle of the pack team in the Eastern Conference, whereas the Lakers would be the favorites to not only win next years NBA title, but they would be the favorites to win the next 12.

No disrespect to Kobe Bryant, because after LBJ he's probably my favorite player to watch, but anybody who truly believes he's better then LeBron at this point in his career, is out of their minds.

:clap::D;):cool::hi5::up::rock::dance::cheers::jum py::box:

Toenail Clipper
08-02-2009, 12:52 PM
BTW, Kobe scored 81, which has one of the best performances in NBA History :)

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 12:53 PM
That is nitpicking LeBron's game. He shoots virtually the same from 3 now, and is a far superior rebounder and passer than Kobe is. On top of that, he has now started to dominate on the defensive side.
Here ya go, Kobe can't barrel thru the lane, past 3 guys bodying him, and dunk on the other teams center. LeBron can. I think you are going a bit over board now. Lebron is not a far superior rebounder and passer than kobe. Kobe rebounds and passes at a high level too. The only thing lebron is superior to kobe is jumping and kobe can do that too. The great debate. I love it. About championships, sometimes superstars are measured by the championships they win. You guys can't deny that. Though, it's too early to judge Lebron on that aspect. He still has ten plus years in the league left to go. Right now, I give the edge to kobe because he's more skilled than Lebron. Although, Lebron might change my mind in the future. Lebron still has a lot to learn, but that is scary considering how good he is now.

Storch
08-02-2009, 12:58 PM
For people that say Kobe cant go in the lane and dunk on people, you guys are insane. Kobe dunked on virtually every Center in this league. Even Yao, Dwight Howard, and ben wallace.

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 01:02 PM
Umm, put it this way...can you name one aspect of Kobe';s game that is flawed or that he cant do well? Then looks at lebrons game. He has flaws...Not a very good free throw shooter, not a good perimeter shooter, etc.

No I can't name one aspect of Kobe's game that is flawed but I can name alot of aspects that LeBron is better at: Scoring, Rebounding, Passing, Stealing, Blocking, field goal %, making his teammates better.

As for your argument that LeBron is not a good free throw shooter or perimeter shooter, the average free throw percentage in the NBA is 75-76%. LeBron shot 78%, therefore he is above average. The average three point % is roughly 34-35%, LeBron shot 34.4% bang on the average, Kobe shot 35.1%, only 0.7% more than LeBron, so your argument is not valid.

LeBron's game is closely becoming the best all-round game in the NBA, Kobe still holds this title but LeBron is better at so many other things now.

Uz13
08-02-2009, 01:04 PM
I don't know why people choose Lebron as the best player in the leauge today. Kobe beats him all aspects, leadership, shooting, handling etc. Kobe Bryant has hit MORE Difficult shots than anyone else ALL TIME, He has hit tougher shots then Jordan , tougher shots than Bird, tougher shots than Magic name it. But I am not saying that he's the GOAT which he isn't. Can lebron hit a fade way with 2 guys on him ? Can lebron split the double team off the backboard then dunk it in( like Kobe did against Utah) , Dude Lebron CHOKES at the charity stripe. Clearly it's kobe. Lebron depends on his athleticism and Refs, by the time he turns kobe's age, he won't be as dominant as he is now.

Now for the passing , Kobe's a better player. Kobe motivates his teammates to win , unlike lebron where he racks his assists from spot up shooters. Infact Kobe has a much better basketball IQ, makes smarter passes, turnovers the rock much less then lebron, a better 1 on 1 defender , where Lebron's defense is overrated by blocking shots on fast breaks. Lets see him do that when he is 30.

Lebron is not even skilled in the post. Kobe has amazing footwork. If there was no zone defense Kobe would be ripping the smaller SG's in the low block. He can fade away, spin, hook shot, turn around you name it.

Uz13
08-02-2009, 01:06 PM
Kobe shot 35.1%, only 0.7% more than LeBron, so your argument is not valid.



Do you see the degree of difficult shots kobe has made ?
:)

danidin
08-02-2009, 01:06 PM
Lebron.

NOBODY can carry the Cavs like him. period.

Storch
08-02-2009, 01:15 PM
Lebron.

NOBODY can carry the Cavs like him. period.

Kobe and Wade can do it, and win a ring.

GSW fan
08-02-2009, 01:16 PM
LeBron James by a little

daleja424
08-02-2009, 01:18 PM
love the wade hate guys... still cant see passed ESPNs bullcrap favoritism... Thats okay...

the correct answer is
Kobe
Wade
Lebron
Howard
Paul

Toenail Clipper
08-02-2009, 01:19 PM
Before voting, please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FpzQiERt8I

cmellofan15
08-02-2009, 01:25 PM
I just read Sox Appeal's post on the 1st page, :speechless:!

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 01:29 PM
We should watch a 10 minute video of Kobe highlights before voting? To be fair shouldn't we watch a video of both. Highlights don't tell you who is the better player. Jamal Crawford has some amazing highlights but doesn't belong anywhere near this conversation.

Mikeleafs
08-02-2009, 01:30 PM
Its very simple really:

Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Dwight

Everyone else

ryanj12344
08-02-2009, 01:33 PM
kobe for sure, its not even a debate.

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 01:38 PM
Do you see the degree of difficult shots kobe has made ?
:)

He chooses to shot those shots...
If he's being double teamed and there's a free player but still shoots the shot he isn't making the right decision, LeBron almost always make's the right decision. Have you seen some of the deep three's LeBron makes?
No, I suppose you don't because you've got your Kobe googles on.

As for your argument that all of LeBron's assists come from spot up shooters:
A) You are wrong, a large majority of his assists come from smart, clever passes to Varejao, pick & pop situations with Ilgauskas and general great court vision.
B) If he's getting assists from spot up shooters he's obviously drawing double teams and making the right decision by kicking it to the open man.
C) What is wrong with getting assists from spot up shooters? An assist is an assist. Your team gets points from that. Whether your kicking it to a spot up shooter or a behind the back pass to a streaking PF, your still helping your team. LeBron averages more assists therefore he helps his team more.

Your arguments are awful. You name three categories that Kobe is better than LeBron at. Yes Kobe is a better shooter, but he could not have led the Cavaliers team of 06-07 to the finals, so his leadership is not better, oh and by the way LeBron was 21. Their ballhandling skills are similar, but I would give the edge to Kobe. Then you say etc. What is etc? What else is Kobe better at? Nothing.

LeBron is the better player, period.

rapswin98
08-02-2009, 01:39 PM
kobe

Chronz
08-02-2009, 01:39 PM
Bargnani

pf289
08-02-2009, 01:43 PM
How can you not say Kobe? Its not a diss to Lebron because he still is #2 an will be #1 when Kobe is done. They both have lots of talent around them so that argument that Lebron has to do it all himself is BS. Lebron has a bigger better body to do what he does. Kobe doesnt have the luxury to physcially be able to dribble through everyone. He takes the tough shots an makes them. Lebron can make some nice shots too but Kobe is better RIGHT NOW. In a few years I am sure that will change.

Uz13
08-02-2009, 01:49 PM
He chooses to shot those shots...
If he's being double teamed and there's a free player but still shoots the shot he isn't making the right decision, LeBron almost always make's the right decision. Have you seen some of the deep three's LeBron makes?
No, I suppose you don't because you've got your Kobe googles on.

As for your argument that all of LeBron's assists come from spot up shooters:
A) You are wrong, a large majority of his assists come from smart, clever passes to Varejao, pick & pop situations with Ilgauskas and general great court vision.
B) If he's getting assists from spot up shooters he's obviously drawing double teams and making the right decision by kicking it to the open man.
C) What is wrong with getting assists from spot up shooters? An assist is an assist. Your team gets points from that. Whether your kicking it to a spot up shooter or a behind the back pass to a streaking PF, your still helping your team. LeBron averages more assists therefore he helps his team more.

Your arguments are awful. You name three categories that Kobe is better than LeBron at. Yes Kobe is a better shooter, but he could not have led the Cavaliers team of 06-07 to the finals, so his leadership is not better, oh and by the way LeBron was 21. Their ballhandling skills are similar, but I would give the edge to Kobe. Then you say etc. What is etc? What else is Kobe better at? Nothing.

LeBron is the better player, period.

Sounds like You didn't watch the Magic Series. The offense was so stagnant, Lebron was shooting some deep 3's which he made if he was streaky, there ball movement was gone. It was all ISO's at the top with Lebron with a magic zone D, with Camping Big Z, Mo , and Delonte, with Varajo setting the screens.


What is Etc?
Okay.
* Long Range Jumper
* Mid Range Jumper
* Jumper in the paint
* Long range fade away
* Mid Range fade away
* Fade away in the paint
* Unstoppable drive to the basket
* Amazing body control
* Amazing hang time and ability to change shot in the air
* Great court vision
* Great rebounding guard
* Pump fake-leaner jumper
* Jumper off of the spin move
* Top three all time in foot work
* Outstanding handles
* Great ability to split double teams
* Ability to shoot over double or triple teams
* And much, much more
* Ability to finish on the fast break
*Ability to back down guards/smallfowards in the post
* Consistent post up fade away
* Impeccable footwork

Now just Shutup .

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 02:03 PM
Sounds like You didn't watch the Magic Series. The offense was so stagnant, Lebron was shooting some deep 3's which he made if he was streaky, there ball movement was gone. It was all ISO's at the top with Lebron with a magic zone D, with Camping Big Z, Mo , and Delonte, with Varajo setting the screens.


What is Etc?
Okay.
* Long Range Jumper
* Mid Range Jumper
* Jumper in the paint
* Long range fade away
* Mid Range fade away
* Fade away in the paint
* Unstoppable drive to the basket
* Amazing body control
* Amazing hang time and ability to change shot in the air
* Great court vision
* Great rebounding guard
* Pump fake-leaner jumper
* Jumper off of the spin move
* Top three all time in foot work
* Outstanding handles
* Great ability to split double teams
* Ability to shoot over double or triple teams
* And much, much more
* Ability to finish on the fast break
*Ability to back down guards/smallfowards in the post
* Consistent post up fade away
* Impeccable footwork

Now just Shutup .

Everything I highlighted comes under shooting so stop trying to pad the amount of things he is better than LeBron at. Kobe has incredible footwork but not top three all time, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kevin McHale all have superior footwork to name but a few.

As for the other things you said Kobe was better at, do you really think that or are you just so lazy you just copied and pasted a previous post that had nothing to do with my statement?

LeBron is a better driver to the basket, has better body control, better hang time, better court vision, better rebounding ability, is as good at handling the rock, shooting over double/triple teams, splitting double/triple teams. LeBron is a better finisher on the fast break, is better at posting up players, bigger or smaller and also has a consistent post up fadeaway.

So I think it is you, my friend who needs to shut up.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 02:06 PM
I think you are going a bit over board now. Lebron is not a far superior rebounder and passer than kobe. Kobe rebounds and passes at a high level too. The only thing lebron is superior to kobe is jumping and kobe can do that too. The great debate. I love it. About championships, sometimes superstars are measured by the championships they win. You guys can't deny that. Though, it's too early to judge Lebron on that aspect. He still has ten plus years in the league left to go. Right now, I give the edge to kobe because he's more skilled than Lebron. Although, Lebron might change my mind in the future. Lebron still has a lot to learn, but that is scary considering how good he is now.

LeBron is a far superior rebounder, and averages more assists, on a team with less weapons. He is better at both imo. Rebounding, its obvious.
And skills are fine. Again, this is the argument people made to take Hakeem over Shaq. to each his own.
And the one thing I agree on, is measuring a career in championships can not be determined until a career is over. If LeBron gets on a team with great players, in his 30's, and even if he is option #2, and rips of 5 rings, does that mean his career is better than Kobe's?? Rings don't define. At all.

lakers4sho
08-02-2009, 02:14 PM
This is going to be fun...

Kobe Bryant.

Lakersfan2483
08-02-2009, 02:30 PM
Kobe is still the no. 1 guy in the NBA.

dre1990
08-02-2009, 02:36 PM
Kobe

dre1990
08-02-2009, 02:36 PM
whoever voted for deron williams is the biggest homer ever

jimbobjarree
08-02-2009, 02:37 PM
woooooooooo

Deron needed my vote more than LBJ

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 02:37 PM
LeBron averages more assists therefore he helps his team more.

Your arguments are awful.

He averages slightly over 1 assist more per game when he has the ball in his hands double the amount of time. An offense purely called Go Lebron GO! Yay for him.


LeBron has better body control, is as good at handling the rock, shooting over double/triple teams, splitting double/triple teams, is better at posting up players, bigger or smaller and also has a consistent post up fadeaway.

No to that. Just no.

First off, Lebron is a 6'9 260 SF.
Kobe is a 6'6 205 SG.

They play different positions, they have completly different "roles" on their teams. Unlike Lebron, Kobe actually plays his role while playing for the Lakers. The TPO is perfect for the ultimate assassion to disect his prey year after year. However the give the ball to Lebron offense can only take you so far (see: lebrons career)...although he's an athletic freak of nature, he is still only human. Lebron tries too hard to do everything himself and actually hurts his team by his love for his boxscore.

Kobe has mastered every aspect of the game while Lebron can barely handle a day at the beach. (check my $tat$)

JWO35
08-02-2009, 02:39 PM
After this, you should skip right to 4....

danidin
08-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Kobe and Wade can do it, and win a ring.

HAHAHAAHAH

Lebron with Pau, Bynum, Odom, and Phill will win a ring every year untill he die, and win all the series 4-0.

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 02:41 PM
Maybe, you'll never know.

Squad13
08-02-2009, 02:45 PM
I don't know why people choose Lebron as the best player in the leauge today. Kobe beats him all aspects, leadership, shooting, handling etc. Kobe Bryant has hit MORE Difficult shots than anyone else ALL TIME, He has hit tougher shots then Jordan , tougher shots than Bird, tougher shots than Magic name it. But I am not saying that he's the GOAT which he isn't. Can lebron hit a fade way with 2 guys on him ? Can lebron split the double team off the backboard then dunk it in( like Kobe did against Utah) , Dude Lebron CHOKES at the charity stripe. Clearly it's kobe. Lebron depends on his athleticism and Refs, by the time he turns kobe's age, he won't be as dominant as he is now.

Now for the passing , Kobe's a better player. Kobe motivates his teammates to win , unlike lebron where he racks his assists from spot up shooters. Infact Kobe has a much better basketball IQ, makes smarter passes, turnovers the rock much less then lebron, a better 1 on 1 defender , where Lebron's defense is overrated by blocking shots on fast breaks. Lets see him do that when he is 30.

Lebron is not even skilled in the post. Kobe has amazing footwork. If there was no zone defense Kobe would be ripping the smaller SG's in the low block. He can fade away, spin, hook shot, turn around you name it.

Yep, Lebron has better stats but he is essentialy the PG on the Cavs, Kobe Bryant is more talented all around, Lebron is the BEST ATHLETE to ever play in the nba. Ask experts who knows and don't just look at stats, they say Kobe. **** ask the greatest of all time, Lebron gets by on his freakish athletic ability, he is almost a man amongst boys out there, which is a scary thought.

JordansBulls
08-02-2009, 02:48 PM
Kobe's playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 32.4 APG: 7.4 REB: 5.6 FG%: .430 WS (Win Shares): 4.8 PER: 26.8

LeBron James playoff stats vs Magic:

PPG: 38.5 REB: 8.3 APG: 8.0 FG%: .487 WS (Win Shares): 4.7 PER: 37.4




His PER against Orlando wasn't 37.4. His first 2 series was 44.5, so that means it was around 29-31 PER in the Orlando series, which is still damn good.

still1ballin
08-02-2009, 02:49 PM
kobe :D

JordansBulls
08-02-2009, 02:50 PM
Why are Bosh or Billups and Deron and Durant on this list? Gasol could be said to be better than either of them at this point. He actually led his team in win shares in the season with a MVP candidate on the team and was a top 5 in Win Shares in the playoffs.

still1ballin
08-02-2009, 02:53 PM
bargnani

rofl!!!!!!!!!

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 03:03 PM
With all the Laker fans on this site you know that Kobe is going to get #1. Only chance that LeBron has is if all the Knicks fans vote for him in an attempt to sway his decision to sign with NY next year.

Young and Stupid
08-02-2009, 03:07 PM
With all the Laker fans on this site you know that Kobe is going to get #1. Only chance that LeBron has is if all the Knicks fans vote for him in an attempt to sway his decision to sign with NY next year.

Unfuknbelievable that Kobe is gonna win, but w/e can never tell Lakers fans anything.

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 03:11 PM
Unfuknbelievable that Kobe is gonna win.

Yeah, I mean who thinks Kobe is still the best player in the game today? People still think that? Lebron passed him two years ago if you ask me...

krest213
08-02-2009, 03:13 PM
im not a lakers fan
but truth be told. his the closest player to MJ
kobe= all around player
wade =very tough some what all around
lebron<== need to mature and focus on winning a chiampionship= some what all around
i never tought kobe was a ballhug, put it like this when he pass the ball his players couldnt score and losing hurt so if i can do it myself ill go for it its not call ball huggin its call mental toughness and a go getter. thats who jordan was early in his time before scottie.

and im a heat and a spurs fan by the way

lakers4sho
08-02-2009, 03:14 PM
With all the Laker fans on this site you know that Kobe is going to get #1. Only chance that LeBron has is if all the Knicks fans vote for him in an attempt to sway his decision to sign with NY next year.

You sound like voting for Kobe is totally absurd, like it is way off the mark.

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 03:14 PM
LeBron is a far superior rebounder, and averages more assists, on a team with less weapons. He is better at both imo. Rebounding, its obvious.
And skills are fine. Again, this is the argument people made to take Hakeem over Shaq. to each his own.
And the one thing I agree on, is measuring a career in championships can not be determined until a career is over. If LeBron gets on a team with great players, in his 30's, and even if he is option #2, and rips of 5 rings, does that mean his career is better than Kobe's?? Rings don't define. At all. I'll say Lebron is a slightly better passer and rebounder than kobe but not far superior. About the rings, Championships do play a part in greatness. If Lebron does not win a ring in his career, then he will be known as the best player to never to win a ring. Look at Kobe, people including yourself was criticizing him for not winning a ring without Shaq while being the number 1 option. Imagine if Kobe did not win a ring this year. If the Magic won instead of the Lakers, people would be doubting Kobe's greatness regardless of how many numbers he put up. Kobe had to prove to everyone that he could win a ring as the number one option. Lebron has to prove he can win a ring period. Championships do define superstars to some degree. It's the ultimate goal in sports if you want to be great.

AFlagRules
08-02-2009, 03:15 PM
LeBron will definitely be the best soon...Right now it's Kobe..

D-Will4Prez
08-02-2009, 03:29 PM
what happened to #10 Center?

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 03:34 PM
You sound like voting for Kobe is totally absurd, like it is way off the mark.

No, no. As I said in my earlier post at least if Kobe wins based off Laker bias on this site that it will be far more valid than the Bargz #5 center in the league debacle. Kobe and LeBron are definitely the top two with Wade just a little behind. Actually LeBron and Kobe are probably as close to a 1a, 1b situation as you could possibly have. However, given how close they actually are the abundance of Laker fans that will vote for Kobe will push him to the win in this vote. Maybe these threads should read that voters can't vote for the guy on their team to make the results more valid. Either way, Kobe or LeBron, the winner will be disputed heavily. I personally voted for LeBron because I do feel that in his career he has been able to do more on teams that weren't as stacked as Kobe has been able to do when his teams weren't inclusive of a whole lot of top-tier talent.

MajorFloridaFan
08-02-2009, 03:38 PM
at this moment it is Kobe but Lebron will pass him

MajorFloridaFan
08-02-2009, 03:39 PM
I mean to say kobe is also more finesse and technical lebron has soo much power and explosiveness

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 03:41 PM
No, no. As I said in my earlier post at least if Kobe wins based off Laker bias on this site that it will be far more valid than the Bargz #5 center in the league debacle. Kobe and LeBron are definitely the top two with Wade just a little behind. Actually LeBron and Kobe are probably as close to a 1a, 1b situation as you could possibly have. However, given how close they actually are the abundance of Laker fans that will vote for Kobe will push him to the win in this vote. Maybe these threads should read that voters can't vote for the guy on their team to make the results more valid. Either way, Kobe or LeBron, the winner will be disputed heavily. I personally voted for LeBron because I do feel that in his career he has been able to do more on teams that weren't as stacked as Kobe has been able to do when his teams weren't inclusive of a whole lot of top-tier talent.

I disagree. I feel Kobe has had more "talent," but not necessarily talent that COMPLIMENTED his game. A fantastic recipe for success is surrounding your star talent with outside shooters to space the floor whether it be a perimeter or interior player. Kobe has never had that in his career. IMO, he has always worked with congested lanes and, in his prime, he had to share the rock with Shaq. Even during 2001, Shaq would say Kobe is the best player in the game, but they had the best 1-2 punch going so they shared the rock of course. Can you imagine Kobe on a team with outside shooters where he can be the one and only playmaker in his athletic prime? It would be very similar to Lebron except with a better scoring output. IMHO, Lebron has been surrounded by a great supporting cast that "complimented" his skills. They may not be the most talented bunch, but he is surrounded by players who space the floor for him and do dirty work. Kobe has never in his career had that. As a Laker fan, I could care less though. I would much rather have a more talented team where our superstar has to sacrifice to win instead of a less talented squad where the superstar's stats hits its highest potential. Like I said, this is just my opinion and what I have gathered by studying the games intricacies and statistics.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 03:48 PM
I'll say Lebron is a slightly better passer and rebounder than kobe but not far superior. About the rings, Championships do play a part in greatness. If Lebron does not win a ring in his career, then he will be known as the best player to never to win a ring. Look at Kobe, people including yourself was criticizing him for not winning a ring without Shaq while being the number 1 option. Imagine if Kobe did not win a ring this year. If the Magic won instead of the Lakers, people would be doubting Kobe's greatness regardless of how many numbers he put up. Kobe had to prove to everyone that he could win a ring as the number one option. Lebron has to prove he can win a ring period. Championships do define superstars to some degree. It's the ultimate goal in sports if you want to be great.

oh no doubt that winning a ring is an absolute necessity to be considered a top 10-15 player of all time. I guess what I am trying to say is, MJ didn't win one until his 7th season. LeBron is 24, he has plenty of time. Measuring him against Kobe, who walked into the league with Shaq in his prime, and having a great surrounding cast and coach, on rings, is unfair at this time.
Now, when LeBron is done, if he has not won a ring, then no, I will 100% agree he shouldn't be mentioned with Kobe. But I really can't forsee him not winning one.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 03:48 PM
LeBron, and frankly, it's not close.


oh well.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 03:50 PM
lol, what the hell are people talking about "if LeBron never wins a ring?"
He's 24 years old for chrissakes.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 03:51 PM
No, no. As I said in my earlier post at least if Kobe wins based off Laker bias on this site that it will be far more valid than the Bargz #5 center in the league debacle. Kobe and LeBron are definitely the top two with Wade just a little behind. Actually LeBron and Kobe are probably as close to a 1a, 1b situation as you could possibly have. However, given how close they actually are the abundance of Laker fans that will vote for Kobe will push him to the win in this vote. Maybe these threads should read that voters can't vote for the guy on their team to make the results more valid. Either way, Kobe or LeBron, the winner will be disputed heavily. I personally voted for LeBron because I do feel that in his career he has been able to do more on teams that weren't as stacked as Kobe has been able to do when his teams weren't inclusive of a whole lot of top-tier talent.


when the Lakers were barely making the playoffs, and Kobe was going for 35/5/5, I would say that Kobe is better than LeBron today. But this poll is about who is the best player right now. Kobe is not the same INDIVIDUAL player he was 4-5 years ago. He just isn't. And he doesn't need to be.
Today, LeBron is the best player. IMO. Has Kobe had a monster advantage with the talent he has had over his career? Sure. But so has Duncan, or Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson, etc.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 03:52 PM
btw, Chronz has the best post in this thread.




I don't even think Kobe is in the top 3. lol. Sorry Lakers fans.

theimortalone
08-02-2009, 03:52 PM
I picked Lebron James.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 03:52 PM
LeBron, and frankly, it's not close.


oh well.

I don't understand it either. Now, if the thread was, who is better, Kobe from 2005-6, or LeBron from 2008-9, then there is an argument. But there just isn't one anymore. And that isn't a slap to Kobe. Everyone gets older.

MJ-BULLS
08-02-2009, 03:53 PM
even thought lebron won the MVP, i have to go with Kobe

theuuord
08-02-2009, 03:55 PM
I don't understand it either. Now, if the thread was, who is better, Kobe from 2005-6, or LeBron from 2008-9, then there is an argument. But there just isn't one anymore. And that isn't a slap to Kobe. Everyone gets older.

I love watching Kobe Bryant play. He's the most fundamentally sound player since Jordan, and because of that, when he turns his game on to the max, he's simply amazing. He can go 7-24 in a game and all I'd remember is how pretty those seven shots looked. Everyone knows Kobe can make unbelievable shots, since he keeps taking unbelievable shots.

This roundtable imo is one of the better articles on the Kobe vs. LeBron debate:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-40-80/The-State-of-the-Great-Debate--Kobe-vs--LeBron-2009.html

theuuord
08-02-2009, 04:08 PM
my favorite part of that roundtable - which is excellent, and in my opinion, very well-debated on both sides - comes from John Krolik, here:


Krolik: Pretending that LeBron predicating his game on driving to the basket while Kobe prefers to go with midrange shots is some sort of stylistic difference is just wrong. Going to the basket is, universally, the way to get efficient baskets, followed by shooting 3s. Midrange jumpers are the easiest shots to get, but the trade-off is that they're a victory for the defense over time -- not one player in the league shot better than 50 percent on midrange jumpers this season. Kobe's percentage on midrange jumpers was 44 percent this season, one of the better marks in the league. Keep in mind that midrange shots rarely produce free throws or offensive rebounds. The worst offensive team in the league, the Clippers, had a TS% of 52 percent. So if your offense were to be entirely Kobe Bryant shooting midrange jump shots, you would have the worst offense in the league by a very wide margin.

The midrange game is definitely the weakest part of LeBron's game, something he should definitely work on (especially his footwork in the post), and a great Plan B late in the clock if you can't get the corner for a drive or open 3. But to say that LeBron's lack of development and devotion to the least efficient shots in basketball is what keeps him from being as good as Kobe is just fallacious. Not only are midrange shots inefficient in the long run, but they keep the team from getting involved; instead of getting into the paint, scattering the defense, and opening up teammates, the possession ends with little ball movement and few other players getting involved. On a micro, individual level, a perfectly executed midrange move is pretty and a solid way for one player to score against a defense, but over time the only way to consistently attain offensive success is to get to the basket, which LeBron James does better than any player in the league, not only getting dunks and layups but involving his teammates and opening up the floor. LeBron has consistently controlled the rebounding game, made passes, and worked amazingly hard on defense in playoff series against elite teams, and because of this the Cavs have consistently won in the playoffs in the past even when LeBron didn't have his offensive game going. There's more to being a complete player than being a scorer.

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 04:09 PM
LeBron, and frankly, it's not close.


oh well.

It's not close?


btw, Chronz has the best post in this thread.




I don't even think Kobe is in the top 3. lol. Sorry Lakers fans.

Why is that? And which 3 players are better than Kobe?

theuuord
08-02-2009, 04:11 PM
It's not close?

Not to me.




Why is that? And which 3 players are better than Kobe?

I'd personally take LeBron, Wade, or Paul over Kobe. I don't really have the urge to explain the position (and I have before), because I know Lakers fans are waiting with pitchforks and mace clubs, and frankly I don't have the energy to explain my picks to 50 of you.

jakesmail123
08-02-2009, 04:13 PM
The fact that Lebron takes three steps almost every time he goes for a dunk hurts his case. It's Kobe.

its called a crap dribble. lol

and half the league including kobe constantly travels as well

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 04:19 PM
I agree theuurod, a case can be made for Wade vs Kobe I think, but not against LeBron anymore. But, explaining opinions is useless, especially if it deals with irrational beings.
I however don't think Paul is better than Kobe, nor Dwight. I think Wade and Kobe are about equal, I can live with either, but LJ is tops at this point.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 04:21 PM
I agree theuurod, a case can be made for Wade vs Kobe I think, but not against LeBron anymore. But, explaining opinions is useless, especially if it deals with irrational beings.
I however don't think Paul is better than Kobe, nor Dwight. I think Wade and Kobe are about equal, I can live with either, but LJ is tops at this point.

Another day I might argue why Paul is #3 in the league, but not today...

My top 7:
1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Chris Paul
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwight Howard
6. Tim Duncan
7. Brandon Roy

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 04:21 PM
I think Wade and Kobe are about equal, I can live with either, but LJ is tops at this point.

I think Lebron and Wade are about equal, I can live with either, but KB is and has been tops at this point.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 04:24 PM
I think Lebron and Wade are about equal, I can live with either, but KB is and has been tops at this point.

and that is you're opinion. I think Kobe was the best player from 2005-07, but has been passed up.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 04:25 PM
seriously, its like some Laker fans take it personal, like THEY are being criticized, if their mesiah dares to be questioned. It is beyond confusing, haha. And kinda sad really

theuuord
08-02-2009, 04:27 PM
seriously, its like some Laker fans take it personal, like THEY are being criticized, if their mesiah dares to be questioned. It is beyond confusing, haha. And kinda sad really

I understand why they do it, but it does get ridiculous sometimes with LA fans. I remember during the Cavs/Magic series it was like that. Almost every time LeBron made a turnover, or missed a shot it was like "see, this is why Kobe is better!"

It caused a lot of headaches in those game threads, that's for sure...

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 04:34 PM
I understand why they do it, but it does get ridiculous sometimes with LA fans. I remember during the Cavs/Magic series it was like that. Almost every time LeBron made a turnover, or missed a shot it was like "see, this is why Kobe is better!"

It caused a lot of headaches in those game threads, that's for sure...

just the fact that they have that much hatred/jealousy/whatever, of LeBron, and call out every little mistake reminds me of a ex wife who hates her husbands new, younger, hotter, cooler girlfriend, hahaha
I mean, honestly, I never was a big Duncan fan, cause I was diehard KG, and thought that KG was better. Eventually I realized I was wrong, and the scenarios at which they had come in had nothing to do with it. But it is hilarious how personal some of them get on these boards.

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 04:35 PM
Not to me.





I'd personally take LeBron, Wade, or Paul over Kobe. I don't really have the urge to explain the position (and I have before), because I know Lakers fans are waiting with pitchforks and mace clubs, and frankly I don't have the energy to explain my picks to 50 of you.

I'm going to a car dealership to check out some cars, but I'll be back to discuss this.

BTW--Are you just using hyperbole? I have a hard time believing that it is "not close." When I think of that term, I am thinking Lebron and the likes of John Salmons. Everybody exaggerates so I am wondering if you are doing that. Personally, my "not close" is comparing the likes of Lebron and Salmons or Kobe and Reddick.

Vinny642
08-02-2009, 04:36 PM
Lebron

theuuord
08-02-2009, 04:37 PM
I'm going to a car dealership to check out some cars, but I'll be back to discuss this.

BTW--Are you just using hyperbole? I have a hard time believing that it is "not close." When I think of that term, I am thinking Lebron and the likes of John Salmons. Everybody exaggerates so I am wondering if you are doing that. Personally, my "not close" is comparing the likes of Lebron and Salmons or Kobe and Reddick.

As far as discussing value in terms of the entire spectrum of players, yes, it would be hyperbole. As far as discussing superstars, I'm not.

LeBron and Kobe are closer in value than Kobe and Salmons, but if we're discussing the value of, say, only the top 5-10 players in the NBA, LeBron has a significant value advantage over everyone else.

Vinny642
08-02-2009, 04:40 PM
1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Cp
5. Dwight

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 04:42 PM
seriously, its like some Laker fans take it personal, like THEY are being criticized, if their mesiah dares to be questioned. It is beyond confusing, haha. And kinda sad really

Here it is Hateeye and you should already know this, Lebron fans hate Kobe because Kobe fans like to make it seem that he's the best player ever in the history of the nba. Kobe fans hate Lebron because Lebron fans make it seem that Lebron has already passed Kobe and is already the best of alltime.

While the intelligent basketball fans sit back and laugh at the rest. Is Kobe the best since Jordan? Yes. Is he better than Jordan? No. Can he ever exceed Jordan? Yes.

Is Lebron the best since Kobe? Yes. Is he better than Kobe? No. Can he ever exceed both MJ and Kobe? Yes.

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 04:46 PM
oh no doubt that winning a ring is an absolute necessity to be considered a top 10-15 player of all time. I guess what I am trying to say is, MJ didn't win one until his 7th season. LeBron is 24, he has plenty of time. Measuring him against Kobe, who walked into the league with Shaq in his prime, and having a great surrounding cast and coach, on rings, is unfair at this time.
Now, when LeBron is done, if he has not won a ring, then no, I will 100% agree he shouldn't be mentioned with Kobe. But I really can't forsee him not winning one. Agreed, but What about Wade though? He has won a ring carrying his team to a championship when he was 24. He had shaq too, but Wade was the number 1 option on that heat team. It's not completely irrational to win young all because Jordan did not do it. I'm going to say this. How is Lebron better than kobe when Kobe is considered top 10-15 in the nba all time right now when Lebron is no where near that list? Kobe is still in his prime and he has not slowed down yet. Although, it's scary how Lebron is compared to kobe right now when he is not even at his best yet. That's why kobe is the best right now and Lebron will pass him once kobe starts slowing down. Lebron is not better than kobe because of one good season. He needs to do more like winning a championship. If kobe starts slowing down or Lebron does something crazy, then I will give Lebron the edge. I think people are looking more at Lebron's potential than looking at him right now. He is still a young player trying to define his game. He will be the best, but not right now.

Penetra8r
08-02-2009, 04:46 PM
Kobe all the way.

pf289
08-02-2009, 04:47 PM
So relating this to the NFL...Dan Marino has goose egg championships but hes not in the top 15 of quarterbacks all time? ok...

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 04:50 PM
1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Cp
5. Dwight

Completely agree

NeutralFan
08-02-2009, 04:50 PM
Refer to Sox Appeal's first post...



But if your still looking for a reason, look at the numbers:

LeBron James: 28.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 7.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.1 bpg, 48.9 fg%, 34.4 3pt%, 78, ft%

Kobe Bryant: 26.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.4 bpg, 46.7 fg%, 35.1 3pt%, 85.6 ft%

Better in every category except 3pt% and ft%, two areas that LeBron has significantly improved over his career so far, and will continue to improve.

numbers dont tell the story. lebron plays with average players so he has to put the team on his back. Kobe no longer has to so he wont have the numbers.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 04:53 PM
Here it is Hateeye and you should already know this, Lebron fans hate Kobe because Kobe fans like to make it seem that he's the best player ever in the history of the nba. Kobe fans hate Lebron because Lebron fans make it seem that Lebron has already passed Kobe and is already the best of alltime.

While the intelligent basketball fans sit back and laugh at the rest. Is Kobe the best since Jordan? Yes. Is he better than Jordan? No. Can he ever exceed Jordan? Yes.

Is Lebron the best since Kobe? Yes. Is he better than Kobe? No. Can he ever exceed both MJ and Kobe? Yes.

No, there are not that many irrational LeBron fans out there. Not even in the same hemisphere of the number of Kobe fans that live in absolutes. Not even close dude.
Is Kobe the best player since MJ? No. Shaq and Duncan are both better. But this is what I am talking about. I am niether an LA fan, or Cleveland fan. I am that intelligent, rational fan out there.
Can Kobe exceed Jordan? No.
Is Lebron the best since Kobe? Yes. And now he is better. that simple.

Again, I will say it. Kobe fans, at least the extremists, of which there are many of this board, take it as a personal insult when someone disagrees with them. It is ridiculous, and like a 3 year old whose candy was just taken away.

xReTro Star 9
08-02-2009, 04:55 PM
If Lebron won the title last season, then he'll be number 1...but Kobe did so that's why hes going to win this poll

Vinny642
08-02-2009, 04:57 PM
As long as Cp3 is on the top 5 IDC where Lebron ad Kobe are, as far as they are concerned they are interchangible at 1.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 04:57 PM
I'd like to reiterate that it's not being a hater when someone says Kobe is a top 5 player in the game. For chrissakes, he's a top 5 player in the NBA. He's one of the best shooting guards ever. He's a delight to watch play basketball. He's a gem. He does things that few other basketball players can do on a nightly basis. He's a wonderful player to watch.

It's not a slight to rank him as one of the greatest players in the NBA right now, but somehow it gets twisted into haterism to think he's not the very best.

I wonder how Lakers fans would feel if they had, say, Brandon Roy or Chris Paul and not Kobe Bryant...

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 04:59 PM
Agreed, but What about Wade though? He has won a ring carrying his team to a championship when he was 24. He had shaq too, but Wade was the number 1 option on that heat team. It's not completely irrational to win young all because Jordan did not do it. I'm going to say this. How is Lebron better than kobe when Kobe is considered top 10-15 in the nba all time right now when Lebron is no where near that list? Kobe is still in his prime and he has not slowed down yet. Although, it's scary how Lebron is compared to kobe right now when he is not even at his best yet. That's why kobe is the best right now and Lebron will pass him once kobe starts slowing down. Lebron is not better than kobe because of one good season. He needs to do more like winning a championship. If kobe starts slowing down or Lebron does something crazy, then I will give Lebron the edge. I think people are looking more at Lebron's potential than looking at him right now. He is still a young player trying to define his game. He will be the best, but not right now.

Kobe already has what, 13 season, and a total body of work at this point. He has moved into the top 20 of all time I would say, and may continue to climb. LeBron doesn't have the games played, to be mentioned in the top 30 yet. That doesn't change the fact that, today, LeBron is better. Kobe has slowed down some. He doesn't take entire games over anymore. He will take a 9 minute stretch over, but the Kobe who scored 81, or had back to back to back games of 50 points, is gone. That isn't a slam. At his age, he has the wear and tear of a 34 year old back in the day.
LeBron has had one good season? hahahaha. Cmon man. His career numbers are stronger than Kobe's, and he is just getting into his prime.

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 05:01 PM
So relating this to the NFL...Dan Marino has goose egg championships but hes not in the top 15 of quarterbacks all time? ok... Is he better than Johnny Unitas, Elway, Brady, Peyton Manning, and Joe Montana? No. The knock on Marino is not winning a superbowl. If he won one, he would arguably be the best quarterback of all time. That just the way things are. Superstars are measured on how they win championships. You see how much it hurts Marino. He is one of best quarterbacks of all time, but his legacy is tarnish a little because he never won a superbowl.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 05:01 PM
I'd like to reiterate that it's not being a hater when someone says Kobe is a top 5 player in the game. For chrissakes, he's a top 5 player in the NBA. He's one of the best shooting guards ever. He's a delight to watch play basketball. He's a gem. He does things that few other basketball players can do on a nightly basis. He's a wonderful player to watch.

It's not a slight to rank him as one of the greatest players in the NBA right now, but somehow it gets twisted into haterism to think he's not the very best.

I wonder how Lakers fans would feel if they had, say, Brandon Roy or Chris Paul and not Kobe Bryant...


there is no reason to apologize for it. In many Laker fans eyes, the nanosecond you question Kobe, or Phil, or Jack Nicholson, you are a hater. So what??
I have stuck up for Kobe numerous times on these threads. All over the place. Yet I get called a hater left and right.

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 05:01 PM
No, there are not that many irrational LeBron fans out there. Not even in the same hemisphere of the number of Kobe fans that live in absolutes. Not even close dude.
Is Kobe the best player since MJ? No. Shaq and Duncan are both better. But this is what I am talking about. I am niether an LA fan, or Cleveland fan. I am that intelligent, rational fan out there.
Can Kobe exceed Jordan? No.
Is Lebron the best since Kobe? Yes. And now he is better. that simple.

Again, I will say it. Kobe fans, at least the extremists, of which there are many of this board, take it as a personal insult when someone disagrees with them. It is ridiculous, and like a 3 year old whose candy was just taken away.

Ok and talking to you is like talking to a close-minded ex girlfriend that wants her man back...you're talking about the Kobe and Lebron fans as if you know all of them. Get real "dude." Is kobe the best since MJ? Well since Shaq, Timmy, and Kobe all have 4 rings and all are in the top 15 all-time list I'd say it's too close to tell. But with me being a smart non biased bball fan I'll take MJ's word himself since he said Kobe is the best since him.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 05:05 PM
Ok and talking to you is like talking to a close-minded ex girlfriend that wants her man back...you're talking about the Kobe and Lebron fans as if you know all of them. Get real "dude." Is kobe the best since MJ? Well since Shaq, Timmy, and Kobe all have 4 rings and all are in the top 15 all-time list I'd say it's too close to tell. But with me being a smart non biased bball fan I'll take MJ's word himself since he said Kobe is the best since him.

I don't know any of you. This is a board. I read you're opinions, as you read mine. And I guess Robert Horry is the best player since Bill Russell.
You're non biased? hahahaha. Awesome
MJ forced the Wiz to pick Kwame Brown, and then the Cats to take Adam Morrison. Need I continue?? Being the best at something doesn't mean you can recognize talent. Look at McHale, Ainge, Thomas, this list could go on till I am cut off for too many words.
Kobe is not top 15 yet btw. He was lead dog for 1 ring. Tim and Shaq, for 3 each, if you are basing things on rings that is. Cause John Stockton is a top 15 player for me as well

Sox Appeal
08-02-2009, 05:05 PM
Figured I should add one more thing...

Look at it this way: for all of its flaws, PER is a good tool for a comparison because it puts everybody on the same plain for comparison. It adjusts for pace and ultimately compares how far above his peers a player is because it sets the League average to 15 every season. Here is a list of every player that has posted a PER greater than 29 in NBA history:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=azeRR

There are 6 people on that list more than once: Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal and Lebron James.

In the last two seasons, Lebron has put up at least 28 ppg, 7 rpg and 7 apg with a true shooting percentage of at least 56%. Here is a list of other players who have done that in NBA history:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=OujmI

Lebron and Oscar Robertson are the only players to have done that multiple times. Bird did it once, Jordan did it once. That's it.

See what I'm getting at? Lebron is doing some things that very few people in NBA history have been able to accomplish, stuff that is much more convincing and meaningful than Kobe's one game scoring binges or the occasional week where he goes off. Lebron's doing it consistently, night in and night out for two entire seasons. Tell yourself that Lebron won't be able to keep it up if it makes you sleep better at night, but it doesn't change the fact that Lebron is a better player right now, is doing things that Kobe could never do and as of now all signs are pointing to Lebron having the better career.

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 05:11 PM
Kobe already has what, 13 season, and a total body of work at this point. He has moved into the top 20 of all time I would say, and may continue to climb. LeBron doesn't have the games played, to be mentioned in the top 30 yet. That doesn't change the fact that, today, LeBron is better. Kobe has slowed down some. He doesn't take entire games over anymore. He will take a 9 minute stretch over, but the Kobe who scored 81, or had back to back to back games of 50 points, is gone. That isn't a slam. At his age, he has the wear and tear of a 34 year old back in the day.
LeBron has had one good season? hahahaha. Cmon man. His career numbers are stronger than Kobe's, and he is just getting into his prime.I meant one good season better than kobe :rolleyes: and that is arguable. Like I said, has Lebron won a championship? No. Lebron played way more minutes than kobe did at the beginning of his career. It's only natural that his career numbers are slightly better playing only 6 seasons. How you know Lebron will be better than kobe at 30. Last time I checked, Lebron relies more on his athleticism than skill. That athleticism will not be there forever. Another reason why I give the edge to kobe right now, but Lebron might change my mind in the future. We will have to wait and see.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 05:11 PM
Lebron and Oscar Robertson are the only players to have done that multiple times. Bird did it once, Jordan did it once. That's it.


The thing about this comparison is that Oscar made those numbers in a league that had a much faster pace - like 40 more possessions per game or something. If you adjust for the pace of the game, and put LeBron in Oscar's context, he'd average like 40/10/10.

Read more here:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1423

Catfish1314
08-02-2009, 05:14 PM
Another day I might argue why Paul is #3 in the league, but not today...

My top 7:
1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Chris Paul
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwight Howard
6. Tim Duncan
7. Brandon Roy

I'll try not to turn this into an off-topic debate, but how do you figure Dwight Howard over Tim Duncan? Would Duncan have let his team fall in the Finals because he let Pau Gasol and a swarm of Laker guards severely limit him on the NBA's biggest stage and strip him of the ball in dozens of possessions over the course of a 5 game series? I seriously doubt it.

epizo1
08-02-2009, 05:14 PM
As someone stated earlier it is Bryant's skill set that separates him from the rest. The debate is there for Lebron as well but I consider Bryant the more complete basketball player at this time. The question is who is the best TODAY and that is Bryant. However, there is no question that Lebron is headed in that direction and when it is all set and done he'll go down as one of the greatest all time.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 05:16 PM
I'll try not to turn this into an off-topic debate, but how do you figure Dwight Howard over Tim Duncan? Would Duncan have let his team fall in the Finals because he let Pau Gasol and a swarm of Laker guards severely limit him on the NBA's biggest stage and strip him of the ball in dozens of possessions over the course of a 5 game series? I seriously doubt it.

Probably not, because it would be impossible for Duncan to face the Lakers in the Finals.

But let's also consider that Duncan couldn't even get to face the Lakers this year. And yes, a lot of that had to do with Manu being injured, but Dwight had an all-star injured on his team as well (Jameer) and otherwise a similar team.

Duncan has a much stronger pedigree, but Howard is the more productive player today.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 05:17 PM
I meant one good season better than kobe :rolleyes: and that is arguable. Like I said, has Lebron won a championship? No. Lebron played way more minutes than kobe did at the beginning of his career. It's only natural that his career numbers are slightly better playing only 6 seasons. How you know Lebron will be better than kobe at 30. Last time I checked, Lebron relies more on his athleticism than skilled. That athleticism will not be there forever. Another reason why I give the edge to kobe right now, but Lebron might change my mind in the future. We will have to wait and see.

actaully, LeBrons last 2 seasons have been better than Kobe. His PER is far higher, which is a better measure of efficiancy.
And of course I don't know if LeBron will get better, or have great seasons over the next 5 years.
Did you watch MJ? He relied purely on athletic ability as well in his young career. LeBron is becoming a better three point shooter, and will develop his mid range game I would expect. That is what superstars do, they adapt and evolve.
And you prefer Kobe, I prefer LeBron. No big deal man. Neither one of us is going to convince the other.
I would also say this, I would honestly think about taking Wade over Kobe as well. But that is another argument.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 05:19 PM
by the way, if Kobe were drafted into a roster that LeBron has had, does anyone here really think he would have a ring at 24? haha. cmon. Rings should not define active players, especially one of which has been able to buy a beer for 3 years.

RaiderLakersA's
08-02-2009, 05:20 PM
I'm lost here. What criteria are we using for best player? Are we including leadership skills and knowledge of the game, or just stats and physical potential/prowess?

Or are we talking purely mano a mano, i.e., "if it were possible to have a one on one match between Wade and LeBron, who would win?"

In my mind the best player is the one who dominates on both ends, who brings mental and physical excellence to the court, whose, well, unstoppableness is unstoppable, who commands the respect of all of his peers, not just the lowly rookie, but the multiple championship title winners and their coaches.

I've watched this game a long, long time, and I've seen some man-gods dominate this sport on pure physical gifts alone. But the great ones, the truly great ones, mastered the game in every aspect. Further, they have a deep abiding respect for the game and the men who play it. That is what makes them praiseworthy.

lakerssssssss
08-02-2009, 05:20 PM
there is no reason to apologize for it. In many Laker fans eyes, the nanosecond you question Kobe, or Phil, or Jack Nicholson, you are a hater. So what??
I have stuck up for Kobe numerous times on these threads. All over the place. Yet I get called a hater left and right.

oh please u r the biggest kobe and laker hater ever.i have never read one post in which u dont bash kobe, lakers, or laker fans.this post is just another example where u bash laker fans. i get it if u hate lakers(a lot of ppl do) what i dont get is why u constantly pretend not to dislike the lakers. u were the one that said that lakers wouldn't win it this past year b/c kobe is the man. now that lakers won it, u dont even give them any credit. i would love to read of one post where u stuck up for kobe. if u r not lying and u really did, i apologize. if not, just admit that you dont like him, the lakers, and the laker fans.

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 05:23 PM
I don't know any of you. This is a board. I read you're opinions, as you read mine. And I guess Robert Horry is the best player since Bill Russell.
You're non biased? hahahaha. Awesome
MJ forced the Wiz to pick Kwame Brown, and then the Cats to take Adam Morrison. Need I continue?? Being the best at something doesn't mean you can recognize talent. Look at McHale, Ainge, Thomas, this list could go on till I am cut off for too many words.
Kobe is not top 15 yet btw. He was lead dog for 1 ring. Tim and Shaq, for 3 each, if you are basing things on rings that is. Cause John Stockton is a top 15 player for me as well

So you start with 3 ridiculously obvious statements and then type words for me assuming that I'm thinking a certain way? No I don't think Robert Horry is the best since Russell, but thanks for assuming I do. What the hell does Jordan drafting college players have anything to do with himself thinking Kobe is the best since him? Kobe isn't top 15? Ok fine, that's your opinion since that's all you seem to say. (you sure love giving your opinion but seem too lazy to back it up)

kobe24>lebron23
08-02-2009, 05:23 PM
I agree theuurod, a case can be made for Wade vs Kobe I think, but not against LeBron anymore. But, explaining opinions is useless, especially if it deals with irrational beings.
I however don't think Paul is better than Kobe, nor Dwight. I think Wade and Kobe are about equal, I can live with either, but LJ is tops at this point.

the uuord is pretty stupid hahaha saying kobe isn't even in the top three

and ive always hated your punk *** hawk eye you have always underestimated kobe's ability! to say that a kobe and wade debate is better because lebron is way ahead of them to me is pretty stupid to say! to me (yeah i'm laker fan so what) kobe is way better then lebron who i think is over rated yes i said it so let the hate begin! dude seriously. kobe is better then lebron at jumpshots,freethrows,skills,moves,handles,and back then kobe would murder lebron at dunking. what does lebron have on kobe oh yeah kobe=4 lebron=0. the only thing lebron has on kobe are stats so just like lebron says "check the states" and then you will know who is better oh and i believe the black mamba came up right yeah i knew it ! nuff said kobe#1 viva mexico!!!!!!!!!!

azkarraga
08-02-2009, 05:24 PM
lebron

Young and Stupid
08-02-2009, 05:24 PM
by the way, if Kobe were drafted into a roster that LeBron has had, does anyone here really think he would have a ring at 24? haha. cmon. Rings should not define active players, especially one of which has been able to buy a beer for 3 years.

I don't think these Kobe fans understand LeBron has been the league for 6 years, and has had a BAD team up until last year which could be considered an average team. The argument they give is "he doesn't have a ring" you could make that argument if his career was over, but its not, he hasn't even reached his prime so thats not a valid criticism.

kobe24>lebron23
08-02-2009, 05:27 PM
Here it is Hateeye and you should already know this, Lebron fans hate Kobe because Kobe fans like to make it seem that he's the best player ever in the history of the nba. Kobe fans hate Lebron because Lebron fans make it seem that Lebron has already passed Kobe and is already the best of alltime.

While the intelligent basketball fans sit back and laugh at the rest. Is Kobe the best since Jordan? Yes. Is he better than Jordan? No. Can he ever exceed Jordan? Yes.

Is Lebron the best since Kobe? Yes. Is he better than Kobe? No. Can he ever exceed both MJ and Kobe? Yes.

you have somereally good points dude ilike your post beside the part where it says that lebron can be better then jordan only reason i say that is because lebron will never win 6 chips

bigsams50
08-02-2009, 05:28 PM
the uuord is pretty stupid hahaha saying kobe isn't even in the top three

and ive always hated your punk *** hawk eye you have always underestimated kobe's ability! to say that a kobe and wade debate is better because lebron is way ahead of them to me is pretty stupid to say! to me (yeah i'm laker fan so what) kobe is way better then lebron who i think is over rated yes i said it so let the hate begin! dude seriously. kobe is better then lebron at jumpshots,freethrows,skills,moves,handles,and back then kobe would murder lebron at dunking. what does lebron have on kobe oh yeah kobe=4 lebron=0. the only thing lebron has on kobe are stats so just like lebron says "check the states" and then you will know who is better oh and i believe the black mamba came up right yeah i knew it ! nuff said kobe#1 viva mexico!!!!!!!!!!

WOw, kobe cant even dream of dunking like lebron, lebron is 24, kobe is 31, and were comparring them, nuff said about lebrons skills,

Reyes6
08-02-2009, 05:30 PM
I say LeBron starting game 1 of next year... Kobe is still the better shooter, but LeBron is the better all around player. And Wade may even pass Kobe soon too... But those will be the top 3 for a while. Unless Paul/Williams gets a nasty jump shot or Howard can hit FT's and 10 foot jumpers.

Catfish1314
08-02-2009, 05:30 PM
Probably not, because it would be impossible for Duncan to face the Lakers in the Finals.

You know what I meant. But for possibility's sake I'll change that to any other above average post defender in the Eastern Conference and a swarm of different guards.


But let's also consider that Duncan couldn't even get to face the Lakers this year. And yes, a lot of that had to do with Manu being injured, but Dwight had an all-star injured on his team as well (Jameer) and otherwise a similar team.

Duncan was also coming off an injury shortly before the playoffs. He wasn't himself and without Manu and an exhausted Tony Parker, the Spurs, for once, were vastly outclassed in this year's playoffs.

And that also doesn't change the fact that Duncan is at his best when the stakes are highest. He's a 3 time Finals MVP for a reason.


Duncan has a much stronger pedigree, but Howard is the more productive player today.

Obviously he's more productive. But not in the playoffs. Production doesn't always make you the better player. In terms of Duncan vs. Dwight, I'm referring to impact on the game, which in regards to an individual player is really the most important thing to winning in basketball. And in that regard (other than rebounding), Duncan is superior. Just a year earlier, PJ utilized that same swarming strategy on Duncan (not as much because Duncan doesn't always play as close to the rim) and it got him virtually nowhere.

Howard is a very good player and in the next year or so, he'll clearly be better than Duncan. But seriously, try to picture a healthy TD in the WCF against the Lakers this year. Can you picture LA doing the same thing they did to TD they did to Howard?

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 05:31 PM
WOw, kobe cant even dream of dunking like lebron, lebron is 24, kobe is 31, and were comparring them, nuff said about lebrons skills,

He said, "back then", talking about the ol' # 8 Kobe days. Which would easily go either way in a dunk contest.

bigsams50
08-02-2009, 05:32 PM
in a dunk contest, not in game dunks

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 05:33 PM
because lebron will never win 6 chips

You don't know that. After Kobe and the Lakers finish their 4-peat ;) Lebron will have plenty of time...

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 05:34 PM
you know what i hate. People that show numbers and stats to support there argument. When it comes to kobe vs lebron, numbers should be invaild. Why? Because both of their stats are void.

Lebron carries the ball more times then pistol pete when he held the ball his entire life including his child hood. Kobe on the other hand, does not even close hold the ball as much as lebron does. Because not only he does not have too, but kobe actually has a decent coach who actually runs plays unlike lebron's coach who's basically like "GIVE LEBRON THE BALL!!!" every single offensive play.

We already saw what happens when kobe holds the ball a lot, and he's done better.

When i look at kobe, i see no weakness, nothing at all. There is nothing in his game at all that down grades him. However, when i look at lebron, i see flaws. I see what hes not good at, and i see players who can do certain things better then he could. I never see it that way with kobe, ever.

People that say lebron is a better passer, if wade, kobe, or even chris paul held the ball as much as lebron did, i think they would be known for their great passing as well. Chris paul would avg 13 or 14 ast for crying out load.

Defense? Kobe is always great on defense. Every year he has always been, and i've not seen his defense decline 1 bit yet. Lebron has 1 great season out of 6 seasons where he finally plays really good defense and all of a sudden he's better then kobe at that? get out of here lol.

Footwork? Lebron has a great crab dribble lol.

Anyway, i vote for kobe. I'm not even a lakers or a kobe fan. I just know a better player when i see one. Yes lebron is only 24, but he has played 6 seasons already and going into his 7th season. MJ won a tittle in his 6th season, go figure.

kobe24>lebron23
08-02-2009, 05:37 PM
You don't know that. After Kobe and the Lakers finish their 4-peat ;) Lebron will have plenty of time...

oh you should actually make it a 5-peat lol:clap: oh and i know lebron won't win six chips in a row trust me just to much talent now a days

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 05:38 PM
WOw, kobe cant even dream of dunking like lebron, lebron is 24, kobe is 31, and were comparring them, nuff said about lebrons skills,

excuse me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Py1-tlMgrk

sorry but i even think kobe is a better dunker then lebron. All lebron does when he ducks his just 1 hand slam. Kobe can do 360s, 1 handers as well, etc. etc.

Lebron is not even that good of a dunker at all, its just 1 freaking move lol.

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 05:39 PM
in a dunk contest, not in game dunks

Hard to say really, depends on who you are. I've seen Kobe and Lebron win HS dunk contests, I've seen Kobe win the NBA dunk contest...Lebron if he doesn't go back on his word may win next year but we'll see. Kobe and Lebron have different types of in game dunks. Kobe can but doesn't show off like he used to with dunking anymore. He also can't jump as high as the good ol' 8 days but duh, he's getting older. Lebron can jump from farther and throws it down as hard as he can on almost every little play.

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 05:40 PM
actaully, LeBrons last 2 seasons have been better than Kobe. His PER is far higher, which is a better measure of efficiancy.
And of course I don't know if LeBron will get better, or have great seasons over the next 5 years.
Did you watch MJ? He relied purely on athletic ability as well in his young career. LeBron is becoming a better three point shooter, and will develop his mid range game I would expect. That is what superstars do, they adapt and evolve.
And you prefer Kobe, I prefer LeBron. No big deal man. Neither one of us is going to convince the other.
I would also say this, I would honestly think about taking Wade over Kobe as well. But that is another argument. Why do keep bringing Jordan into this. Kobe and Lebron won't come close. I think Wade is just as good as Lebron, but that is also another argument for another poll. This Kobe/Lebron stuff is a good debate. Neither of us is wrong. I respect your opinion.


by the way, if Kobe were drafted into a roster that LeBron has had, does anyone here really think he would have a ring at 24? haha. cmon. Rings should not define active players, especially one of which has been able to buy a beer for 3 years. Good question, but we will never know. Kobe won this year so that argument won't work. Why do people think the cavs had such a bad roster? They only won 66 games. Lebron had the talent, but they choked. The true test is next season when he will have a great roster to help him. Shaq is old, but he is still a top 3 center in this league.

kArSoN RyDaH
08-02-2009, 05:41 PM
you know what i hate. People that show numbers and stats to support there argument. When it comes to kobe vs lebron, numbers should be invaild. Why? Because both of their stats are void.

Lebron carries the ball more times then pistol pete when he held the ball his entire life including his child hood. Kobe on the other hand, does not even close hold the ball as much as lebron does. Because not only he does not have too, but kobe actually has a decent coach who actually runs plays unlike lebron's coach who's basically like "GIVE LEBRON THE BALL!!!" every single offensive play.

We already saw what happens when kobe holds the ball a lot, and he's done better.

When i look at kobe, i see no weakness, nothing at all. There is nothing in his game at all that down grades him. However, when i look at lebron, i see flaws. I see what hes not good at, and i see players who can do certain things better then he could. I never see it that way with kobe, ever.

People that say lebron is a better passer, if wade, kobe, or even chris paul held the ball as much as lebron did, i think they would be known for their great passing as well. Chris paul would avg 13 or 14 ast for crying out load.

Defense? Kobe is always great on defense. Every year he has always been, and i've not seen his defense decline 1 bit yet. Lebron has 1 great season out of 6 seasons where he finally plays really good defense and all of a sudden he's better then kobe at that? get out of here lol.

Footwork? Lebron has a great crab dribble lol.

Anyway, i vote for kobe. I'm not even a lakers or a kobe fan. I just know a better player when i see one. Yes lebron is only 24, but he has played 6 seasons already and going into his 7th season. MJ won a tittle in his 6th season, go figure.

thank you! finally someone makes sense around this thread. i hate how people keep bashing kobe for him having a good team around him and for not having the statistics as lebron. lebron is the only player on his team and he still isnt puttting up tremendous numbers. kobe in 2005-06 season had no team and he averaged 35 points a game. if lebron has no one around him why isnt lebron putting up those kind of numbers? kobe now can do less and accomplish more than lebron. people neeed to stop hating on kobe man.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 05:42 PM
Figured I should add one more thing...

Look at it this way: for all of its flaws, PER is a good tool for a comparison because it puts everybody on the same plain for comparison. It adjusts for pace and ultimately compares how far above his peers a player is because it sets the League average to 15 every season. Here is a list of every player that has posted a PER greater than 29 in NBA history:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=azeRR

There are 6 people on that list more than once: Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal and Lebron James.

In the last two seasons, Lebron has put up at least 28 ppg, 7 rpg and 7 apg with a true shooting percentage of at least 56%. Here is a list of other players who have done that in NBA history:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=OujmI

Lebron and Oscar Robertson are the only players to have done that multiple times. Bird did it once, Jordan did it once. That's it.

See what I'm getting at? Lebron is doing some things that very few people in NBA history have been able to accomplish, stuff that is much more convincing and meaningful than Kobe's one game scoring binges or the occasional week where he goes off. Lebron's doing it consistently, night in and night out for two entire seasons. Tell yourself that Lebron won't be able to keep it up if it makes you sleep better at night, but it doesn't change the fact that Lebron is a better player right now, is doing things that Kobe could never do and as of now all signs are pointing to Lebron having the better career.

Oooh that boy Sox Appeal good. SEXUAL CHOCLATE!

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 05:44 PM
Why do keep bringing Jordan into this. Kobe and Lebron won't come close. I think Wade is just as good as Lebron, but that is also another argument for another poll. This Kobe/Lebron stuff is a good debate. Neither of us is wrong. I respect your opinion.

Good question, but we will never know. Kobe won this year so that argument won't work. Why do people think the cavs had such a bad roster? They only won 66 games. Lebron had the talent, but they choked. The true test is next season when he will have a great roster to help him. Shaq is old, but he is still a top 3 center in this league.

the Cavs roster might be slightly improved, but they are a bunch of average players and castoffs. cmon
And you are right, I am not gonna bring up MJ again. I simply put it in there, that he was the best player in the league before he won a ring, so that shouldn't dicate anything for current players. And while Kobe will never be MJ, LeBron has time on his side, but needs a monster career. Time isn't on Kobe's side anymore to catch the big man

And I respect youre opinion as well dude. Trust me. I don't dig the fanatics, but reasonable Laker fans are fun to debate with.

Sox Appeal
08-02-2009, 05:47 PM
Oooh that boy Sox Appeal good. SEXUAL CHOCLATE!

:nod:

Red Hot Rolllin
08-02-2009, 05:48 PM
B Roy!!!!!

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 05:49 PM
excuse me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Py1-tlMgrk

sorry but i even think kobe is a better dunker then lebron. All lebron does when he ducks his just 1 hand slam. Kobe can do 360s, 1 handers as well, etc. etc.

Lebron is not even that good of a dunker at all, its just 1 freaking move lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZY75UC8m0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udf79-H7Dks&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1ppwCKt8P4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sptlS89b9cc&feature=fvsr

Yeah, just one freakin' move... LOL

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 05:53 PM
And while Kobe will never be MJ, LeBron has time on his side, but needs a monster career. Time isn't on Kobe's side anymore to catch the big man

time is not on kobe's side? Kobe has 4 rings and has a chance to go for a 3 peat sadly :(. But not only that, why does he need to catch up to the bigman? You mean shaq? So wait a min, Kobe's 3 rings with shaq don't count? So Wade's ring should not count either right? But WAIT, WADE WAS THE BEST PLAYER ALL OF A SUDDEN!?

BS, People should really shut up when they don't count kobe's 3 rings before this year. Because it does count, and even if he was not the number 1 option, he was probably the best 2nd option ever.

Kobe has time, esspically with his team. Lebron has time as well, if he chooses to leave the cavs next year and signs with the hawks :D.

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 05:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZY75UC8m0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udf79-H7Dks&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1ppwCKt8P4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sptlS89b9cc&feature=fvsr

Yeah, just one freakin' move... LOL

ummm dude, did u watch the videos urself? The first 2 videos u showed me are basically THE SAME FREAKING DUNKS!

same with the last 2 dunks.

So excuse me he can do 1.5 different dunks.

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 05:56 PM
I'm glad to see Tim Duncan getting some votes. That guy doesn't get enough credit he deserves.

tland22
08-02-2009, 05:58 PM
Right now It LeBron

tland22
08-02-2009, 05:58 PM
Id take Wade and Chris Paul over Kobe at this point....

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 06:03 PM
I'm glad to see Tim Duncan getting some votes. That guy doesn't get enough credit he deserves.

yea. But he's also not the same player anymore. Still great, but if it were 3 years ago, i would definitely give him a vote.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 06:03 PM
time is not on kobe's side? Kobe has 4 rings and has a chance to go for a 3 peat sadly :(. But not only that, why does he need to catch up to the bigman? You mean shaq? So wait a min, Kobe's 3 rings with shaq don't count? So Wade's ring should not count either right? But WAIT, WADE WAS THE BEST PLAYER ALL OF A SUDDEN!?

BS, People should really shut up when they don't count kobe's 3 rings before this year. Because it does count, and even if he was not the number 1 option, he was probably the best 2nd option ever.

Kobe has time, esspically with his team. Lebron has time as well, if he chooses to leave the cavs next year and signs with the hawks :D.

Kobe does have 4 rings. But his individual game will never catch MJ's. Ever. He is now looking at the downside of his career, individually speaking. That is what I was referring to. Kobe's stats will continue to drop slowly, and he was never able to match MJ in that category. He doesnt' have the impact, the game, nor the results Michael did. And most likely never will
My point was, LeBron does have time on his side. He is 24. Does time guarantee anything? hell no. It is simply a matter of age difference, and years left. Nothing more, don't read into it.

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 06:04 PM
ummm dude, did u watch the videos urself? The first 2 videos u showed me are basically THE SAME FREAKING DUNKS!

same with the last 2 dunks.

So excuse me he can do 1.5 different dunks.

Yeah DUDE, I did watch the videos and unless i'm mistaken, the first video is a reverse jam in the lane after blowing by Solomon Jones, the second video is a HUGE reverse windmill, the third is a two handed windmill, and the fourth is a one handed windmill from nearly the free throw line...

Let me count... that's four different dunks for you right there and that took me 2 minutes on YouTube, and with a bit more looking I think even you'll find he doesn't do just 1 handed slams (that happen to be the best in the league)

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 06:04 PM
I'm glad to see Tim Duncan getting some votes. That guy doesn't get enough credit he deserves.

by actual basketball fans, yes he does. He is widely considered the greatest PF of all time. I believe that is enough credit.

Basketballguy87
08-02-2009, 06:06 PM
-Kobe is the best player in the NBA because he can win a championship without another superstar.
-Duncan is the 2nd best because he can also win championships without another superstar on his team.
-Wade is 3rd because he is a great scorer and has won one championship.
-LeBron is 4th because his skill in general are amazing but he has not won a single championship.

Pornstar86
08-02-2009, 06:08 PM
Meh, Kobe. I hate both players but Kobe Bryant is one of the MOST skilled players of all-time . Period.

*Kobe Bryant:

* Long Range Jumper
* Mid Range Jumper
* Jumper in the paint
* Long range fade away
* Mid Range fade away
* Fade away in the paint
* Unstoppable drive to the basket
* Amazing body control
* Amazing hang time and ability to change shot in the air
* Great court vision
* Great rebounding guard
* Pump fake-leaner jumper
* Jumper off of the spin move
* Top three all time in foot work
* Outstanding handles
* Great ability to split double teams
* Ability to shoot over double or triple teams
* And much, much more
* Ability to finish on the fast break


LeBron James:

* Decent long range jumper
* Decent mid range jumper
* Great step back in mid range
* Amazing drive to the basket
* Amazing body control in the air
* Great court vision
* Great rebounding
* Amazing ability to finish the fast break
* Very good handles for a small forward

* From Fwarr03.
Lebron may be more athletic , but skill set wise it's kobe.

D. Wade has all of these also, i don't understand how he only has 16 votes....wade's skillset is better than lebron, lebron just happens to be 4 inches taller and a lil stronger, but based on actual skill, wade is better then lebron

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 06:10 PM
-Kobe is the best player in the NBA because he can win a championship without another superstar.
-Duncan is the 2nd best because he can also win championships without another superstar on his team.
-Wade is 3rd because he is a great scorer and has won one championship.
-LeBron is 4th because his skill in general are amazing but he has not won a single championship.

hahahahaha, this post is ridiculous.

kobe24>lebron23
08-02-2009, 06:11 PM
excuse me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Py1-tlMgrk

sorry but i even think kobe is a better dunker then lebron. All lebron does when he ducks his just 1 hand slam. Kobe can do 360s, 1 handers as well, etc. etc.

Lebron is not even that good of a dunker at all, its just 1 freaking move lol.

hahaha nice one have yo ever seen lebron do a 360 i know i haven't what about a baseline windmill of course not
just compare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ye2BmqyP0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-9TAoPPgKQ

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 06:12 PM
hahaha nice one have yo ever seen lebron do a 360 i know i haven't what about a baseline windmill of course not
just compare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ye2BmqyP0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-9TAoPPgKQ

if fancy dunks make the best player ever, than its Vince Carter, no argument. Get real

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 06:13 PM
if fancy dunks make the best player ever, than its Vince Carter, no argument. Get real

Well obviously, Kobe even said that himself.

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 06:14 PM
hahahahaha, this post is ridiculous.

And this post is funny too.


And you are right, I am not gonna bring up MJ again.Time isn't on Kobe's side anymore to catch the big man.

5 minutes later...


Kobe does have 4 rings. But his individual game will never catch MJ's. Ever. He is now looking at the downside of his career, individually speaking. That is what I was referring to. Kobe's stats will continue to drop slowly, and he was never able to match MJ in that category. He doesnt' have the impact, the game, nor the results Michael did. And most likely never will

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 06:15 PM
if fancy dunks make the best player ever, than its Vince Carter, no argument. Get real

didn't you get the memo? :p

kobe24>lebron23
08-02-2009, 06:15 PM
D. Wade has all of these also, i don't understand how he only has 16 votes....wade's skillset is better than lebron, lebron just happens to be 4 inches taller and a lil stronger, but based on actual skill, wade is better then lebron

i agree but kobe is still the best

yanksknicksgmen
08-02-2009, 06:18 PM
lebron

showtym24
08-02-2009, 06:20 PM
Nice kobe's dominating now.

Pornstar86
08-02-2009, 06:20 PM
yes i agree with kobe24...

kobe
wade
lebron

i just can't believe that wade has only 8% of the votes, he should at least have 25....kobe, wade, and lebron should be fairly even in votes

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 06:26 PM
And this post is funny too.



5 minutes later...

no, that post was funny. THere is no team with 2 superstars right now, so its a stupid point.
And it was brought up again. And I was speaking about with that individual. Nobody else. If MJ and Kobe are brought up in the same sentence, I look at it as my duty to crap on that.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 06:26 PM
thank you! finally someone makes sense around this thread. i hate how people keep bashing kobe for him having a good team around him and for not having the statistics as lebron. lebron is the only player on his team and he still isnt puttting up tremendous numbers. kobe in 2005-06 season had no team and he averaged 35 points a game. if lebron has no one around him why isnt lebron putting up those kind of numbers? kobe now can do less and accomplish more than lebron. people neeed to stop hating on kobe man.

I love how Kobe/Laker fans either say how great LeBron's team is if they want to discredit him for not winning and at the same time they will discredit his astounding statistical achievements by saying what a great supporting cast he has.

The fact that Kobe scored 35 a game when his team was hot garbage(if you can call a team that includes Lamar Odom and Caron Butler such) is really not that impressive. They were barely over .500 that year. LeBron lead his team to 66 wins while carrying a roster of bums. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Also, LeBron plays a much more complete game than Kobe did at that time- evidenced by his rebounding, assists, steals, blocks, and shooting percentage being better. Lastly, look at how much Kobe shot the ball that year and how much LeBron shot it this year. Kobe averaged 7 more points/game on 7 more shots/game. If LeBron had shot as much as Kobe did that year he would have averaged damn near 40/game this year.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 06:28 PM
in his prime, kobe would beat lebron, but now, lebron is too athletic and too much of a beast in the air...he dunked from the free throw line in a game, who does that? and he did it easily..i wouldnt be surprised if he tried a two handed free throw line dunk in the contest next year

no doubt Kobe was a prettier dunker than LeBron. But LJ punishes the rim, and gets higher than Kobe ever has. But whatever. No matter how awesome it is, its 2 points.

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 06:32 PM
I love how Kobe/Laker fans either say how great LeBron's team is if they want to discredit him for not winning and at the same time they will discredit his astounding statistical achievements by saying what a great supporting cast he has.

And I love how Lebron/Cav fans either say how great Kobe's team is as if they want to discredit him for winning and at the same time they will mention Lebron's team choking but none of that is Lebron's fault I mean look at his stats...

tland22
08-02-2009, 06:35 PM
2 ppl voted for D-Will LOLOLOL of course!

and then need I even say that BOSH has a few votes as well...

and of course the 1 million lakers fans on here vote for Kobe.

ahhhhhhhhhh its refreshing to have an unbiased poll....a poll with minial HOMER action... LOLOL (sarcasm )

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 06:36 PM
It makes me laugh knowing Lebron and the Cavs had the best record in the league plus "best" coach in Mike Brown. Then seeing that genious coach **** the bed in the playoffs and Lebron pissing on his team by walking out on them. He'll take all the glory and credit when he's winning but he vanishes like he does in clutch time when they lose.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 06:37 PM
And I love how Lebron/Cav fans either say how great Kobe's team is as if they want to discredit him for winning and at the same time they will mention Lebron's team choking but none of that is Lebron's fault I mean look at his stats...

I don't think that you got what I was going for there. I presented contradictory points of view put forth by the same people. You just made a statement about two different teams that have little to nothing to do with one another.

tland22
08-02-2009, 06:39 PM
^^^^ dude if LeBron was on the Lakers last year, they would have had a better reg season record than they posted AND they still would have won the title easily. But the year before if they had LeBron the Lakers would have beaten the Celtics instead of getting beat down by them. I Kobe was on the Cavs I know for a FACT Kobe couldnt have taken them to the NBA Finals lke LeBron did. And I know for a fact the Cavs would NOT have won 66 games with Kobe on their instead of LeBron.

LeBron is better and he makes his team better

BkOriginalOne
08-02-2009, 06:40 PM
Kobe is the most complete basketball player of all time.

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 06:43 PM
ahhahaha ^^^^ perfect timing

showtym24
08-02-2009, 06:44 PM
Kobe haters gettin mad hahahaha

Zefflin
08-02-2009, 06:44 PM
Alright well that was fun, I'm going to go play actual basketball now. Goodbye fellas.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 06:49 PM
Kobe is the most complete basketball player of all time.

WHAT?

How do you just roll in and say some outlandish mess like that?

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 06:52 PM
WHAT?

How do you just roll in and say some outlandish mess like that?

c'mon man, you know when a typical Lakers fan rolls in, rationality is what you are going to get.

IversonIsKrazy
08-02-2009, 07:03 PM
Kobe is the best in the game right now. Im not even going to explain y Kobe is better than LeBron, its obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

There u go, LeBron isnt even up for debate after that statement.

Kobe>Dwade>LeBron

Toenail Clipper
08-02-2009, 07:03 PM
Allen Iverson is not on the list huh?
WHY?
Just because last year he sucked, now they consider him as a joke.
WTF

mfb_lt1birdman
08-02-2009, 07:08 PM
Definitely some passionate and good arguments here. Its only between Kobe and Lebron for me. Wade is close but still has a bit to go.

Here is my thing. Kobe's offensive skill-set is just so superior to Lebron and anybody else to ever play not named MJ. Anyone who argues that is just in denial.

On the flipside Lebron's natural gift of size, speed, and strength coupled with an uncanny finesse is just beyond words. This year he started showing the capacity to make the jumpers and play great D. If he continues at this pace to increase his skills while maintaining his athleticism he will truly be the most talented player ever. Whether he truly becomes great by winning a couple titles unfortunately depends on the teammates his managements puts around him.

I still picked Kobe by a hair because I tend to favor skills a bit more since Kobe has just worked so hard to hone his game as he ages. Not trying to discredit Lebron but I feel its kind of like Shaq in a way. Shaq was/is a skilled player but his natural physique is what game him such an edge. Lebron is the same way to me. I hope he works to refine his game like Kobe has and just becomes the complete package. That would be a joy to watch.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 07:09 PM
Kobe is the best in the game right now. Im not even going to explain y Kobe is better than LeBron, its obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

There u go, LeBron isnt even up for debate after that statement.

Kobe>Dwade>LeBron

What they say about themselves is irrelevant. What happens on the court is all that matters. Would you rather he be completely cocky and say how he is definitely better? Nobody in the league with any humility would say that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5gnjt3D6pM&feature=related

Kobe is a douche.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 07:11 PM
there's so much irrationality in this thread i can't even respond to all of it.

one man can only do so much.

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 07:24 PM
What they say about themselves is irrelevant. What happens on the court is all that matters. Would you rather he be completely cocky and say how he is definitely better? Nobody in the league with any humility would say that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5gnjt3D6pM&feature=related

Kobe is a douche.

What video are you watching? I just watched a video of Kobe having a few laughs with a reporter...That makes him a douche though according to you. :eyebrow:

BTW--Lebron, as a human being, is probably the biggest "douche" of them all. I'm not even kidding. The dude has a horrible rep for treating fans badly. Kobe is on the opposite spectrum as he has a better rep of being very approachable. Heck, you can go to Disneyland on any given day and probably see Kobe and his family and go say Hi.

Niro
08-02-2009, 07:26 PM
its close between kobe and lebron, i gotta go with lebron tho

theuuord
08-02-2009, 07:28 PM
What video are you watching? I just watched a video of Kobe having a few laughs with a reporter...That makes him a douche though according to you. :eyebrow:

BTW--Lebron, as a human being, is probably the biggest "douche" of them all. I'm not even kidding. The dude has a horrible rep for treating fans badly. Kobe is on the opposite spectrum as he has a better rep of being very approachable. Heck, you can go to Disneyland on any given day and probably see Kobe and his family and go say Hi.

I don't know if you've ever met LeBron, but from my experience it's the exact opposite.... He had a few laughs with all of us, stopped for pictures to be taken, signed basketballs, cards, even tried to play volleyball with the local high school girl's team... he was in complete control of the crowd. everyone loved him.

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 07:29 PM
What they say about themselves is irrelevant. What happens on the court is all that matters. Would you rather he be completely cocky and say how he is definitely better? Nobody in the league with any humility would say that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5gnjt3D6pM&feature=related

Kobe is a douche.

And Lakers fans wonder why he is the most hated player in the NBA... says it all really.

ronaldsmith_86
08-02-2009, 07:29 PM
Definitely some passionate and good arguments here. Its only between Kobe and Lebron for me. Wade is close but still has a bit to go.

Here is my thing. Kobe's offensive skill-set is just so superior to Lebron and anybody else to ever play not named MJ. Anyone who argues that is just in denial.

On the flipside Lebron's natural gift of size, speed, and strength coupled with an uncanny finesse is just beyond words. This year he started showing the capacity to make the jumpers and play great D. If he continues at this pace to increase his skills while maintaining his athleticism he will truly be the most talented player ever. Whether he truly becomes great by winning a couple titles unfortunately depends on the teammates his managements puts around him.

I still picked Kobe by a hair because I tend to favor skills a bit more since Kobe has just worked so hard to hone his game as he ages. Not trying to discredit Lebron but I feel its kind of like Shaq in a way. Shaq was/is a skilled player but his natural physique is what game him such an edge. Lebron is the same way to me. I hope he works to refine his game like Kobe has and just becomes the complete package. That would be a joy to watch.

1 of the smartest statements on this thread :clap:

JordansBulls
08-02-2009, 07:34 PM
-Kobe is the best player in the NBA because he can win a championship without another superstar.
-Duncan is the 2nd best because he can also win championships without another superstar on his team.
-Wade is 3rd because he is a great scorer and has won one championship.
-LeBron is 4th because his skill in general are amazing but he has not won a single championship.

Gasol was an allstar this year and led an elite team with a top MVP candidate in win shares.

It's like saying Billups is the best in the league in 2004 because he won the title without a superstar.

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 07:36 PM
And Lakers fans wonder why he is the most hated player in the NBA... says it all really.

In a world, where joking and having a few laughs is frowned upon...


:rolleyes:

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 07:38 PM
I don't know if you've ever met LeBron, but from my experience it's the exact opposite.... He had a few laughs with all of us, stopped for pictures to be taken, signed basketballs, cards, even tried to play volleyball with the local high school girl's team... he was in complete control of the crowd. everyone loved him.

I have literally heard the EXACT opposite. As in, he made sure people didn't have cameras and he wouldn't sign anything. He wasn't friendly at all.

theuuord
08-02-2009, 07:39 PM
I have literally heard the EXACT opposite. As in, he made sure people didn't have cameras and he wouldn't sign anything. He wasn't friendly at all.

Well I have a signed basketball and a picture that prove the opposite.
It may have been the venue he went to or the situation - I'm sure if it was in the LA area, for instance, he might not have been so friendly.

_KB24_
08-02-2009, 07:42 PM
Here we go with the Lebron and Kobe Debate. The real debate should be with Wade and Kobe. Wade is a better shooter, finisher, defender, more clutch, and faster than Lebron. Lebron will not be the best until he has a jumper. He still does not, whether you like it or not.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 07:42 PM
In a world, where joking and having a few laughs is frowned upon...


:rolleyes:

Yeah, obviously he was cuttin up a little at an all-star event but a lot of truth is said in jest. LeBron could easily have done the same thing in his interview, for which he would have most likely been barbecued by Laker fans, but he took the high road and showed some humility. My point was, for that to be used as a reason that he should not be included in this conversation is ludicrous. You have to agree with me.

soundjunkies2
08-02-2009, 07:51 PM
Kobe Bryant.

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 07:51 PM
Yeah, obviously he was cuttin up a little at an all-star event but a lot of truth is said in jest. LeBron could easily have done the same thing in his interview, for which he would have most likely been barbecued by Laker fans, but he took the high road and showed some humility. My point was, for that to be used as a reason that he should not be included in this conversation is ludicrous. You have to agree with me.

I agree with that, but I have never met anybody who has said Kobe is a douche that is all. My friend's sister works for KCAL9 as a reporter and she gets invited to Laker parties all the time (mostly Farmar's--she says Farmar thinks he is better than the other Jordan :laugh2:). Anyways, she says that the nicest Laker players are Kobe, Sasha, and Pau. She said Kobe is always really nice to everybody. She says Sasha is cute (:laugh2:) and she says Pau is very smart and articulate.

DetroitRipCity
08-02-2009, 07:51 PM
1) Kobe Bryant (4 Rings)
2) Tim Duncan (4 Rings)
3) Kevin Garnett (1 Ring)
4) Dwayne Wade (1 Ring)
5) Chauncey Billups (1 Ring)
6) Lebron James (0 Rings)
7) Dwight Howard (0 Rings)
8) Carmelo Anthony (0 Rings)
9) Dirk Nowitzki (0 Rings)
10) Chris Paul (0 Rings)

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 07:52 PM
1) Kobe Bryant (4 Rings)
2) Tim Duncan (4 Rings)
3) Kevin Garnett (1 Ring)
4) Dwayne Wade (1 Ring)
5) Chauncey Billups (1 Ring)
6) Lebron James (0 Rings)
7) Dwight Howard (0 Rings)
8) Carmelo Anthony (0 Rings)
9) Dirk Nowitzki (0 Rings)
10) Chris Paul (0 Rings)

:laugh:

ink
08-02-2009, 07:54 PM
I don't know if you've ever met LeBron, but from my experience it's the exact opposite.... He had a few laughs with all of us, stopped for pictures to be taken, signed basketballs, cards, even tried to play volleyball with the local high school girl's team... he was in complete control of the crowd. everyone loved him.

That doesn't surprise me at all. Seems like a good guy to me, maybe a big ego, but if we don't want our stars to have big egos, we should stop licking their shoes all the time. Same goes for any star. We're the fools that build up their egos ... then we complain when they seem "full of themselves". lol. From what I've seen, Lebron seems to enjoy playing basketball. I like that. That's what I like about DWade, Nash and CP3 too, to name a few others.

---

Back to the thread ... whoever said we should start at #4 had it right as far as I'm concerned.

Wade. Lebron. Kobe. Top 3 in no particular order. Could care less about which one is the best. To be honest this subject is so beaten to death I'd rather hear about what movie is Nicholas Cage's worst. At least I might hear something I haven't heard 100,000 times before.

Bruno
08-02-2009, 07:55 PM
No one in the NBA touches Kobe's skill set, nobody. His midrange game is untouchable, arguably the greatest of all time. It has been his bread and butter since about 2005.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 07:55 PM
1) Kobe Bryant (4 Rings)
2) Tim Duncan (4 Rings)
3) Kevin Garnett (1 Ring)
4) Dwayne Wade (1 Ring)
5) Chauncey Billups (1 Ring)
6) Lebron James (0 Rings)
7) Dwight Howard (0 Rings)
8) Carmelo Anthony (0 Rings)
9) Dirk Nowitzki (0 Rings)
10) Chris Paul (0 Rings)

RINGS DON'T MAKE PLAYERS GREAT!!!

How many times do we have to go through this? If all that determined a player's greatness was the number of championship TEAMS on which he played then this would be the comprehensive list of best players ever...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_players_wi th_most_championship_rings

but it's not. Stop with this moronic over-generalization. Great players get rings, rings do not make players great.

RaptorsFanatic
08-02-2009, 07:56 PM
I thought this thread would be homerized and full of blasphemy but its not as bad as I though it would turn out to be.

DetroitRipCity
08-02-2009, 07:58 PM
Robert Horry has won more finals games than Michael Jordan, so I guess that makes Horry a better player. Adam Morrison has a championship ring, so I guess that makes him better than Karl Malone.

I hate when people use championships to decide who the best player is. Winning a title has more to do with the team as hole, than it does as an individual player. If you honestly think LeBron couldn't have won any of those championship rings, you're simply out of your mind.

Then why hasnt he i mean dude is 0-4 in the finals

and he has had some Terrible stats http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2006/nba_finals_stats.html

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 08:00 PM
That doesn't surprise me at all. Seems like a good guy to me, maybe a big ego, but if we don't want our stars to have big egos, we should stop licking their shoes all the time. Same goes for any star. We're the fools that build up their egos ... then we complain when they seem "full of themselves". lol. From what I've seen, Lebron seems to enjoy playing basketball. I like that. That's what I like about DWade, Nash and CP3 too, to name a few others.

---

Back to the thread ... whoever said we should start at #4 had it right as far as I'm concerned.

Wade. Lebron. Kobe. Top 3 in no particular order. Could care less about which one is the best. To be honest this subject is so beaten to death I'd rather hear about what movie is Nicholas Cage's worst. At least I might hear something I haven't heard 100,000 times before.

1. Awesome backhanded swipe at Kobe.

2. Ghost Rider or The Wicker Man are the two that come off the top of my head.

TheKing23
08-02-2009, 08:01 PM
In a world, where joking and having a few laughs is frowned upon...


:rolleyes:

Joking or not the tone and manner in which he says it just reeks of arrogance...
And come on, Kobe isn't exactly known for his sense of humor, so many people can interpreted this as him being egotistical.
That's why players like Shaq get away with some of the things they say, people usually know he's joking.

ink
08-02-2009, 08:02 PM
1. Awesome backhanded swipe at Kobe.

Relax Oh Kobe defender.

I was just complimenting players I like. Not everything revolves around Kobe in everyone's world.

DetroitRipCity
08-02-2009, 08:04 PM
RINGS DON'T MAKE PLAYERS GREAT!!!

How many times do we have to go through this? If all that determined a player's greatness was the number of championship TEAMS on which he played then this would be the comprehensive list of best players ever...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_players_wi th_most_championship_rings

but it's not. Stop with this moronic over-generalization. Great players get rings, rings do not make players great.


yea in YOUR opinion rings dont mean **** but IMO they do if you are supposed to be the best player in the league then that means
1.) you play at a higher level then everyone else
2.) you make everyone around you better
3.) Win Rings

im tired of hearing the excuse that Lebron would have won a ring with a better team i say ******** make your teamates better and play your game

ARMIN12NBA
08-02-2009, 08:06 PM
Joking or not the tone and manner in which he says it just reeks of arrogance...
And come on, Kobe isn't exactly known for his sense of humor, so many people can interpreted this as him being egotistical.
That's why players like Shaq get away with some of the things they say, people usually know he's joking.

Not really. Carmelo, LBJ, Wade, and even D. Howard have talked about Kobe being one of the most hilarious guys on the team.

ink
08-02-2009, 08:07 PM
yea in YOUR opinion rings dont mean **** but IMO they do if you are supposed to be the best player in the league then that means
1.) you play at a higher level then everyone else
2.) you make everyone around you better

im tired of hearing the excuse that Lebron would have won a ring with a better team i say ******** make your teamates better and play your game

great example 2004 Pistons Name 1 person that that was considered a "superstar" before they won and name 1 person who thought they were going to win the title that year against shaq and kobe. I bet you cant no one gave them a shot in hell.

By using the Pistons as an example haven't you just made his point for him? No one would say those individual players are among the best ever, yet they all have rings. :shrug: Does that make them better than Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, and Malone?

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 08:08 PM
yea in YOUR opinion rings dont mean **** but IMO they do if you are supposed to be the best player in the league then that means
1.) you play at a higher level then everyone else
2.) you make everyone around you better

im tired of hearing the excuse that Lebron would have won a ring with a better team i say ******** make your teamates better and play your game

great example 2004 Pistons Name 1 person that that was considered a "superstar" before they won and name 1 person who thought they were going to win the title that year against shaq and kobe. I bet you cant no one gave them a shot in hell. I agree with you, but you brought up such a bad memory :cry:.

Bruno
08-02-2009, 08:08 PM
The fact that Kobe scored 35 a game when his team was hot garbage(if you can call a team that includes Lamar Odom and Caron Butler such) is really not that impressive. They were barely over .500 that year. LeBron lead his team to 66 wins while carrying a roster of bums. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Also, LeBron plays a much more complete game than Kobe did at that time- evidenced by his rebounding, assists, steals, blocks, and shooting percentage being better. Lastly, look at how much Kobe shot the ball that year and how much LeBron shot it this year. Kobe averaged 7 more points/game on 7 more shots/game. If LeBron had shot as much as Kobe did that year he would have averaged damn near 40/game this year.

Kobe averaged 35 a game the year after Caron Butler was traded for Kwame Brown. The Lakers starting line up was Smush Parker, Kobe, Walton, Lamar, Kwame Brown. They went 45-37 in 05-06.

And sorry, you don't win 66 games with a roster of bums. The 09' Cavs were a great squad, who allowed 91.4 ppg, defensively, the BEST in the NBA. They also had the highest win differential in the NBA, at 8.9 + per game.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byteam?cat1=Total&cat2=opponent&conference=NBA&year=season_2008

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 08:08 PM
imo i think wade and lebron is much more comparable, and i might even vote for wade as number 2 over lebron in the next one.

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 08:11 PM
By using the Pistons as an example haven't you just made his point for him? No one would say those individual players are among the best ever, yet they all have rings. :shrug: Does that make them better than Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, and Malone? Among Superstars, rings are a measuring stick. You can't deny that. Read my earlier posts in this thread. I don't feel like proving this point again.

ink
08-02-2009, 08:15 PM
Among Superstars, rings are a measuring stick. You can't deny that. Read my earlier posts in this thread. I don't feel like proving this point again.

I didn't see it, but since you often make good points, I'll hunt it down. I was just pointing out the fact that the rings the Pistons players have don't make them into the "best". I just don't buy into any of this comparison bull**** to be totally honest. People with rings vs. people without rings. I really don't care about either one. I'd rather just spend my time watching the game and enjoying ALL OF THE GREATS compete.

Bruno
08-02-2009, 08:16 PM
I don't know any of you. This is a board. I read you're opinions, as you read mine. And I guess Robert Horry is the best player since Bill Russell.
You're non biased? hahahaha. Awesome
MJ forced the Wiz to pick Kwame Brown, and then the Cats to take Adam Morrison. Need I continue?? Being the best at something doesn't mean you can recognize talent. Look at McHale, Ainge, Thomas, this list could go on till I am cut off for too many words.
Kobe is not top 15 yet btw. He was lead dog for 1 ring. Tim and Shaq, for 3 each, if you are basing things on rings that is. Cause John Stockton is a top 15 player for me as well

I really don't get how you can say Stockton is top 15 ad Kobe isn't Hawkeye.

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 08:16 PM
wait a min why isen't josh smith an option?

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 08:17 PM
I really don't get how you can say Stockton is top 15 ad Kobe isn't Hawkeye.

Stockton is a top 40 for me lol.

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 08:18 PM
yea in YOUR opinion rings dont mean **** but IMO they do if you are supposed to be the best player in the league then that means
1.) you play at a higher level then everyone else
2.) you make everyone around you better

im tired of hearing the excuse that Lebron would have won a ring with a better team i say ******** make your teamates better and play your game

great example 2004 Pistons Name 1 person that that was considered a "superstar" before they won and name 1 person who thought they were going to win the title that year against shaq and kobe. I bet you cant no one gave them a shot in hell.

So you're saying that Steve Nash is the best player in the league. He definitely meets that criteria.

LeBron does both of those things. You think that Mo Williams had a shot at an all-star team in Milwaukee? Lebron made him better, at least in the eyes of people who know basketball best- the NBA coaches. Play at a higher level thAn everyone else? Are you saying that Chauncey Billups plays at a higher level than everyone else? That dude is a top 5 PG at best and yet you have him in the top 5 in the league- total homer pick. Homerism weakens your argument.

Imagine that, you turn to a Piston reference to prove your point, even though they belong nowhere near this discussion having never had anywhere near the best player in the league on their team at any time. You start that paragraph with "great example" but it actually doesn't make a point that has anything to do with this debate. What were you going for there?

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 08:19 PM
I really don't get how you can say Stockton is top 15 ad Kobe isn't Hawkeye.

tops is assists and steals, by a lot, as a PG. Pretty much sums it up. He played in the Jordan era, where many great players careers will always be undervalued, because nobody could compete with him. That is why Stockton is a top 15 player ever. And don't get me wrong, Kobe will most likely move into my top 15, he isn't done yet. I am measuring Stockton's full body of work vs a guy who is in the last 2/3 of his career.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2009, 08:20 PM
Stockton is a top 40 for me lol.

that tells a lot about you.

FaceDown91
08-02-2009, 08:23 PM
that tells a lot about you.

and puting stockton in top 15 definitely tells a alot about u as well.

Teeboy1487
08-02-2009, 08:24 PM
I didn't see it, but since you often make good points, I'll hunt it down. I was just pointing out the fact that the rings the Pistons players have don't make them into the "best". I just don't buy into any of this comparison bull**** to be totally honest. People with rings vs. people without rings. I really don't care about either one. I'd rather just spend my time watching the game and enjoying ALL OF THE GREATS compete. Too bad the season is ages away. I miss the nba already. :(

MPScribbles
08-02-2009, 08:25 PM
Kobe averaged 35 a game the year after Caron Butler was traded for Kwame Brown. The Lakers starting line up was Smush Parker, Kobe, Walton, Lamar, Kwame Brown. They went 45-37 in 05-06.

And sorry, you don't win 66 games with a roster of bums. The 09' Cavs were a great squad, who allowed 91.4 ppg, defensively, the BEST in the NBA. They also had the highest win differential in the NBA, at 8.9 + per game.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byteam?cat1=Total&cat2=opponent&conference=NBA&year=season_2008

I guess by using "you" that you are assuming that I am a Cavs fan. I am not. You may be assuming that I am a LeBron fan. I am not.

No matter when Kobe scored 35 per it doesn't change the point that I was making. Either LeBron is an stat monster on a bad team or he is a choke artist on a good team. Lakers fans always try to live on both sides of that fence and it gets really annoying.