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KB---24
07-29-2009, 10:50 PM
Who do you think is the most clutch player able to make those buzzer beaters, gamewinners/gametiers?

Mines:
Derek Fisher :clap:

raiderlover510
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
the most clutch player in the nba?

kb24 :D

Hawkeye15
07-29-2009, 10:54 PM
The most clutch game winner? Travis Outlaw. But, Melo is incredible with the game on the line. With 2 minutes to go, 1 posession game, Kobe.

lakers4sho
07-29-2009, 10:58 PM
Brandon Roy or Carmelo Anthony

King P
07-29-2009, 11:04 PM
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points


2008-2009 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 4/16/2009


Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time
Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o
Blk Stl

LAL Bryant 41 142 100 +34 39.1 .457 10.1 .400 18.2 92% 56.7 15% 8.4 5.7 3.0 0.0 1.0
CLE James 31 111 103 +45 31.2 .556 8.2 .421 20.8 85% 55.9 20% 14.3 12.6 4.8 1.7 3.5
DEN Anthony 24 82 16 +9 26.9 .565 7.0 .583 24.0 82% 54.4 57% 7.6 2.9 1.2 0.0 1.2
MIA Wade 45 194 10 +2 32.7 .470 7.9 .281 22.3 73% 49.2 12% 5.4 9.4 4.2 4.9 3.0
NOH Paul 44 146 28 +9 28.7 .494 2.6 .375 17.5 90% 45.1 9% 6.3 10.5 4.6 0.3 4.3
NYK Robinson 36 112 -46 -20 28.7 .433 10.7 .200 18.4 95% 44.6 31% 5.1 3.4 2.1 0.0 0.4
POR Roy 39 170 -5 -1 27.9 .475 4.5 .188 16.1 91% 42.0 10% 7.9 6.2 2.5 0.8 1.7
DAL Nowitzki 43 156 53 +16 31.1 .406 7.1 .304 16.0 84% 40.9 41% 11.4 2.2 1.5 1.5 0.6
BOS Pierce 44 187 51 +13 23.4 .451 3.9 .467 19.0 85% 39.1 26% 5.9 6.2 4.1 0.0 1.3
LAC Randolph 17 93 7 +4 22.3 .605 3.1 .333 11.9

jakesmail123
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
melo

kvrnm
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
paul pierce! makes alot of game winners

rapswin98
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
Kobe Bryant

still1ballin
07-29-2009, 11:10 PM
kobe

t-mac1nukka
07-29-2009, 11:21 PM
hedo does work on buzzer beaters

sargon21
07-29-2009, 11:24 PM
pierce, add a poll

$KnicksAndKobe$
07-29-2009, 11:26 PM
Pierce, Kobe, Fisher, and Hedo are the best clutch players

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-29-2009, 11:30 PM
Pierce, Kobe, Fisher, and Hedo are the best clutch players

Agreed, but Melo is up there too

SwaggaIke
07-29-2009, 11:31 PM
The usual suspects...Kobe, Wade & Melo. Pierce also has a knack for hitting the big one.

FlakeyFool
07-29-2009, 11:33 PM
hedo

Sox Appeal
07-29-2009, 11:41 PM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Bron, not really even close.

cowboyz180
07-29-2009, 11:44 PM
ray allen makes a bunch of clutch shots

chicago lulz
07-29-2009, 11:50 PM
Ray Allen hits those clutch shots

dre1990
07-29-2009, 11:51 PM
Kobe, Ray Allen, Ben Gordan, Melo, Wade, Bron, Nate Robinson, Brandon Roy, CHAUNCEY BILLUPS

J_M_B
07-29-2009, 11:55 PM
Kobe Bryant and it's really not even close

Tmac,lt,berkman
07-29-2009, 11:58 PM
D-fish is garbage until clutch time..

Sox Appeal
07-30-2009, 12:09 AM
Kobe Bryant and it's really not even close

LeBron's clutch stats: PPG: 55.9 REB: 14.3 AST: 12.6 BLK: 1.7 STL: 3.5 FG%: .556 3PT%: .421 FGa (Field Goals attempted): 31.2 FT%: 85

Kobe's clutch stats: PPG: 56.7 REB: 8.4 AST: 5.7 BLK: 0.0 STL: 1.0 FG%: .457 3PT%: .400 FGa (Field Goals attempted): 39.1 FT%: 92

So with the exception of PPG, and FT shooting, LeBron has the edge over Kobe in all other statistical category's. Kobe is also taking 7.9 more shots per clutch situation then is LeBron. If you would give [LeBron] those shot attempts, the scoring numbers wouldn't even be close.

It's almost laughable how much Kobe is overrated in the clutch.

D-Leethal
07-30-2009, 12:20 AM
if I need to get a deep shot off with 2-3 seconds left .......... Ray Allen no question. He had more game tying/winning 3 pointers this post season than most guys get in their careers. Kobe is second. This is based off of one shot needed to tie/win the game

IrespectNumber3
07-30-2009, 01:34 AM
if its the last 5 seconds Ray Allen 10 seconds ill go with Kobe/Wade then Pierce

Lakergirl24
07-30-2009, 01:41 AM
It has to kobe. Thats why all we hear is how hes the best closer in the game. The guy is amazing in the clutch. Others that I would put after him are hedo, fish, and melo

Lakergirl24
07-30-2009, 01:42 AM
Actually ray allen belongs in that group too

Sox Appeal
07-30-2009, 01:43 AM
It has to kobe. Thats why all we hear is how hes the best closer in the game. The guy is amazing in the clutch. Others that I would put after him are hedo, fish, and melo

Popular opinion isn't always correct.

Lakergirl24
07-30-2009, 01:45 AM
Popular opinion isn't always correct.

In this case, it is. The guy has done it time and time again. He wills his team to victories with the game on the line

Sox Appeal
07-30-2009, 01:46 AM
In this case, it is. The guy has done it time and time again. He wills his team to victories with the game on the line

Actually, it's not.

(To quote myself from earlier in the thread)

LeBron's clutch stats: PPG: 55.9 REB: 14.3 AST: 12.6 BLK: 1.7 STL: 3.5 FG%: .556 3PT%: .421 FGa (Field Goals attempted): 31.2 FT%: 85

Kobe's clutch stats: PPG: 56.7 REB: 8.4 AST: 5.7 BLK: 0.0 STL: 1.0 FG%: .457 3PT%: .400 FGa (Field Goals attempted): 39.1 FT%: 92

So with the exception of PPG, and FT shooting, LeBron has the edge over Kobe in all other statistical category's. Kobe is also taking 7.9 more shots per clutch situation then is LeBron. If you would give [LeBron] those shot attempts, the scoring numbers wouldn't even be close.

madiaz3
07-30-2009, 01:48 AM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Bron, not really even close.

thread creator meant shots not free throws.

ps. kobe established his reputation as a clutch player long before the time thats being tracked in that site

Sox Appeal
07-30-2009, 01:50 AM
thread creator meant shots not free throws.

ps. kobe established his reputation as a clutch player long before the time thats being tracked in that site

There's no question about that. But what Kobe has done in the past, has absolutely nothing to do with what he does now.

theBraveRocket
07-30-2009, 01:52 AM
Melo

KobeBeatJeeesus
07-30-2009, 02:05 AM
There's no question about that. But what Kobe has done in the past, has absolutely nothing to do with what he does now.

Actually it does, because those stats you are posting are from the PAST. If I want a rebound, a block, an assist, or a steal in the last 5 seconds of the game, I will call on bron, however, it would be possible to have bron run up the lane with his knee into someones chest and still have it be a blocking foul since he NEVER gets called for fouls.

If I want to win it, I wont have to call Kobe, he will just do it. Case closed.

Er1c
07-30-2009, 02:10 AM
kobe, melo, roy, allen, billups. bron isnt there yet srry

valade16
07-30-2009, 02:15 AM
As a Blazer fan I'd take my boy Brandon Roy to close out any game.

But I also just want to say that if there's like 5 seconds left at the end of the game I'd take Kobe (hate the lakers :mad:) over Bron any day of the week. If you stay in front of Bron (easier said than done I know) then his chances of beating you go down exponentially (the farther from a dunk he has to shoot), where as Kobe could nail any shot on the court.

itsripcity32
07-30-2009, 02:20 AM
The most clutch game winner? Travis Outlaw. But, Melo is incredible with the game on the line. With 2 minutes to go, 1 posession game, Kobe.

travis outlaw... :confused:

dbeastly
07-30-2009, 04:57 AM
To everyone who says Kobe: When has Kobe been in a clutch situation this year? His team wins by default every game. Talk about the players that actually have to fight to win and since Wade has a horrible team and usually finishes by himself anyways the title goes to Wade.
Please guys, stop over rating Kobe and Lebron for what they could do but for what they actually do.
And also Lebron and Kobe sit alot of 4th quarters while Wade is sweating it out doing everything by himself. Game against Knicks, Miami down 15 with 5 minutes left, Wade scores 20 straight points and gets 3 steals to single handedly win. Look it up on youtube. Thats what you call clutch

Beno7500
07-30-2009, 06:55 AM
Dwyane

kbaxter34
07-30-2009, 07:28 AM
Kobe & Wade

skinsfan4life80
07-30-2009, 08:40 AM
One thing is flawed with your dumb stat..Lebron doesnt have close to the Buzzer beaters Kobe or Melo does. And if it isnt a Layup good luck Lebron. With one shot left in the game Kobe Bryant is the feared player in the NBA as any coach or any player you wont find any that say other wise. They no better then your dumb stats

Brooklyn Mets
07-30-2009, 09:21 AM
kb24

jsumadchat
07-30-2009, 09:26 AM
Vince Carter. far overlooked for his game-ending ability.

jsumadchat
07-30-2009, 09:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1sQxpGhMTE

just to further my point. most of these are from the raptor days too.

JDink24
07-30-2009, 09:47 AM
Iggy, because I’m a homer and because of the buzzard beater in the Lakers game and Magic series

mikantsass
07-30-2009, 10:13 AM
Pierce, Kobe, Ray Ray, Wade and Carmello

dgreat5000
07-30-2009, 10:20 AM
Ben Gordon. No doubt about it

PrettyBoyJ
07-30-2009, 10:36 AM
Kobe, Ray Allen

KobeBeatJeeesus
07-30-2009, 11:03 AM
To everyone who says Kobe: When has Kobe been in a clutch situation this year?

Against Denver, Houston, and Orlando just in the playoffs just off of the top of my head. What kind of a question is that?

azkarraga
07-30-2009, 11:22 AM
one thing is being a buzz beater shooter and another being a clutch player.

IMO jordan was both. kobe is clutch. and wade. melo is both, but in a lesser way. fisher is a buzz beater. so is billups.

azkarraga
07-30-2009, 11:23 AM
and pierce is clutch.

ManRam
07-30-2009, 11:25 AM
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points


2008-2009 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 4/16/2009


Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time
Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o
Blk Stl

LAL Bryant 41 142 100 +34 39.1 .457 10.1 .400 18.2 92% 56.7 15% 8.4 5.7 3.0 0.0 1.0
CLE James 31 111 103 +45 31.2 .556 8.2 .421 20.8 85% 55.9 20% 14.3 12.6 4.8 1.7 3.5
DEN Anthony 24 82 16 +9 26.9 .565 7.0 .583 24.0 82% 54.4 57% 7.6 2.9 1.2 0.0 1.2
MIA Wade 45 194 10 +2 32.7 .470 7.9 .281 22.3 73% 49.2 12% 5.4 9.4 4.2 4.9 3.0

From those numbers, it looks like Melo. Shooting 57% from the field during clutch situations is amazing. Kobe's FG% is pretty low...but he doesn't turn the ball over as much. LeBron even shoots a higher % from three than Kobe in clutch sitatutions. Melo shooting 58% from three is ridiculous too. And anyone who says when the game is on the line, LeBron just takes over and doesn't care about his teammates...Kobe takes by far the most shots late in games, and LeBron has an insane amount of assists. Oh, and LeBron's FT% is higher than both Wade and Anthony's.

But...regardless of the stats, I still want Kobe taking the shot. I think LeBron will be able to create the better shot or shot for his teammates, and has proven he can make the shot, but Kobe is the best.

IBleedPurple
07-30-2009, 11:25 AM
kobe, melo, roy, allen, billups. bron isnt there yet srry

I like that list, moving Roy a spot down or two. Melo has better stats overall, but I think Kobe has earned the top spot. Agree Lebron isn't clutch yet, one freakish shot doesn't automatically elevate him to that level. For several years, he was one of the worst clutch stars in the league.

TheGreenMonster
07-30-2009, 11:35 AM
Gilbo used to be the best but now I would have to say KOBE

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-30-2009, 11:37 AM
Kobe, Melo, Arenas, Peirce, Hedo, BG, Chauncey, Wade

cmacmath
07-30-2009, 11:40 AM
First of all there is a huge difference between clutch player and buzzer beater player so please define...

Brandon Roy and Dwyane Wade are the best at taking over 4th quarters, but not necessarily the most clutch with the game on the line

Ray Allen, Derek Fischer, Hedo, BEN GORDON (whos not getting nearly enuff attention in this thread), Paul Pierce, maybe even Dirk, these are the guys I want taking the buzzer beating last shot of the game

Kobe is incredibly overrated as a clutch player. He rarely ever makes buzzer beaters. In fact, he misses game winning shots all the time. He gets the rep as a clutch scorer because, lets face it, he has the smoothest jumper in the game and the sweetest shot so therefore people just assume he would be the best person to have take a last shot, but he never makes game winners. He does all his damage from like 8 minutes left in the 4th (when he usually checks back in the game) to 2 minutes left in the 4th...but not the last 30 seconds...

Lebron James? Why is he even being discussed? Because he is a superstar? Do you want Shaq in his prime taking your last shot? Get Lebron out of this thread unless he can barrel thru the defense, not get called for an offensive foul, and dunk the ball

S-Dot
07-30-2009, 11:42 AM
Kobe, Melo, Arenas, Peirce, Hedo, BG, Chauncey, Wade

Add Jamal Crawford and thats a pretty good list. As much as I love LBJ, I can't put him as one of the best today.

ctitus45
07-30-2009, 11:48 AM
Kobe/ Melo/ Roy

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-30-2009, 11:52 AM
I like that list, moving Roy a spot down or two. Melo has better stats overall, but I think Kobe has earned the top spot. Agree Lebron isn't clutch yet, one freakish shot doesn't automatically elevate him to that level. For several years, he was one of the worst clutch stars in the league.

Amen.

I got in a huge argument with a friend who was trying to say LeBron was soo clutch... LoL... I told him thats one of the knocks on LBJ's game, is he couldn't buy a big bucket in crunch time. He did hit a couple this year tho, the shot against Orl in game 2 and that shot over Turiaf in GS.

philab
07-30-2009, 12:07 PM
It's definitely not Kobe.


From the start of '03 until the present:
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

GAME-WINNING SHOTS:
Leading "Game Winning Shot" Players
Player Fgm Fga Fg% Ftm Fta Ast T/O
League Wide 853 2858 .298 610 815 352 296
LeBron James 17 50 .340 14 20 6 4
Vince Carter 16 51 .314 10 11 3 4
Ray Allen 15 39 .385 4 6 1 2
Kobe Bryant 14 56 .250 12 15 1 5
Carmelo Anthony 13 27 .481 7 11 1 4
Allen Iverson 13 33 .394 6 8 1 2
Ben Gordon 12 34 .353 6 6 1 4
Dirk Nowitzki 12 37 .324 13 18 1 3
Joe Johnson 12 45 .267 2 3 4 2
Paul Pierce 11 32 .344 15 17 9 3
Dwyane Wade 11 40 .275 13 17 3 2

Notice that Kobe's FG% on those shots is the LOWEST -- ahem, LOWEST -- of anyone on that list. It's even lower than the league average by almost 40%.

He's also got the most TOs of anyone and only one assist.

From this, I'd say: Carmelo, Allen, James in that order. That's essentially the FG% rank but LeBron's commanding lead in assists and good FG% with the 2nd highest volume move him up to 3rd.


Again, this is from '03 on. That is LeBron and Carmelo's ENTIRE career. As one said, Kobe was well-established by then. Despite that poster's intentions, this is actually a HUGE, HUGE knock on Kobe as he was a developed player when these stats were first being compiled while Melo and LeBron were 19 and 18 years old.


This has already been posted, but just for good measure:

Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time
Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
LAL Bryant 41 142 100 +34 39.1 .457 10.1 .400 18.2 92% 56.7 15% 8.4 5.7 3.0 0.0 1.0
CLE James 31 111 103 +45 31.2 .556 8.2 .421 20.8 85% 55.9 20% 14.3 12.6 4.8 1.7 3.5
DEN Anthony 24 82 16 +9 26.9 .565 7.0 .583 24.0 82% 54.4 57% 7.6 2.9 1.2 0.0 1.2
MIA Wade 45 194 10 +2 32.7 .470 7.9 .281 22.3 73% 49.2 12% 5.4 9.4 4.2 4.9 3.0
NOH Paul 44 146 28 +9 28.7 .494 2.6 .375 17.5 90% 45.1 9% 6.3 10.5 4.6 0.3 4.3

For 2008-09.

Again, notice Kobe's FG% is the LOWEST of the group. And as has already been pointed out, he loses to LeBron in every category except PPG and FT%, with the difference in the former (0.8 PPG) due entirely to the 7.9 more FGA/game.


And finally, 4th quarter stats:

Production per game (for the quarter)
Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
CLE James 67 580 263 +5 5.1 .472 1.4 .308 3.0 81% 7.7 23% 2.0 1.7 0.8 0.3 0.4
IND Granger 63 639 -17 -1 5.5 .436 2.2 .362 2.3 84% 7.5 54% 1.7 0.5 0.7 0.4 0.2
MIA Wade 75 648 46 +0 5.5 .447 1.2 .303 2.7 78% 7.4 16% 0.9 1.6 0.6 0.4 0.5
LAL Bryant 68 525 140 +3 5.4 .436 1.4 .327 2.5 86% 7.3 25% 1.3 0.9 0.6 0.1 0.3
NOH Paul 72 677 143 +2 4.6 .509 0.8 .345 2.4 92% 7.1 13% 1.3 2.2 0.9 0.0 0.8


For 2008-09.

Again, notice that Kobe is tied for the LOWEST FG% of anyone on the list.



So, can we drop the "Kobe is the most clutch in the NBA" routine?

As these statistics inarguably show, Kobe is not the most clutch in the NBA. In fact, he is signficantly less "clutch" than the league average.

HeatBBall
07-30-2009, 12:10 PM
Shaq!!! naw j/k. Kobe and Wade

JWO35
07-30-2009, 12:11 PM
Ben Gordon
Ray Allen
Kobe Bryant
Carmelo Anthony
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade

philab
07-30-2009, 12:16 PM
Kobe is incredibly overrated as a clutch player. He rarely ever makes buzzer beaters. In fact, he misses game winning shots all the time. He gets the rep as a clutch scorer because, lets face it, he has the smoothest jumper in the game and the sweetest shot so therefore people just assume he would be the best person to have take a last shot, but he never makes game winners.

He gets the rep because he takes more than everyone and because he plays in LA.

The more you take, the more you make. No one remembers the missed shots (which in Kobe's case are numerous) -- they remember the makes. Kobe is 3rd in actual game-winning shots over the past seven years. So there's your reason for him being overrated.

Also, with his high profile and the Lakers in LA, every game-winning shot gets noticed.



Lebron James? Why is he even being discussed? Because he is a superstar? Do you want Shaq in his prime taking your last shot? Get Lebron out of this thread unless he can barrel thru the defense, not get called for an offensive foul, and dunk the ball

He does have the most game-winning makes in the NBA since his career began. That's at least reason enough to be mentioned in this thread.

what54!?
07-30-2009, 12:18 PM
melo

jsumadchat
07-30-2009, 12:46 PM
has ANYONE watched the VC vid i posted. dude is being overlooked HARD

DaBUU
07-30-2009, 12:53 PM
Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!

azkarraga
07-30-2009, 01:05 PM
has ANYONE watched the VC vid i posted. dude is being overlooked HARD

no. post it again please

Vasherpick6
07-30-2009, 01:08 PM
Outlaw

JordansBulls
07-30-2009, 01:40 PM
Derrick Rose, Vince, Kobe, Roy, Lebron, Melo

cmacmath
07-30-2009, 01:46 PM
I like the person who argued me...made good points...

Here is my beef with Kobe...i struggle to name any game winners he has had...

Fisher you can say the .4 second shot and this years 3

Hedo there are a bunch...Celtics last year, Philly this year, couple others

Ben Gordon has a million including a couple at the Garden and him and Ray Allen in the first round this year

Lebron made that one against Orlando this year

Jordan you can point to that Utah shot or the Cleveland shot

With kobe all I got is that Phoenix first round series a couple years ago...thats it????

philab
07-30-2009, 01:48 PM
Derrick Rose, Vince, Kobe, Roy, Lebron, Melo

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way -- this is genuine curiosity.

Did you happen to read my post on page 4?

I say this because you're one of the few people who actually know and respect statistics, but yet your choices don't indicate such.


Is there a reason Kobe and his 40 points below league average game-winner FG% make your cut? Is there something that brings him back into the fold that I'm missing? Rose also seems like an interesting choice when others like Allen and Gordon (especially the former Bull, Gordon) are left off.

If you're just throwing names out there, then no problem here. If you've taken a look at the statistics though, then I'm left very confused.

RiLoc
07-30-2009, 01:49 PM
travis outlaw... :confused:
Game winning shots @ 82games.com (http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm): 5 for 5 in 07-08; 6 for 7 overall.

I think those game winning shot stats seem to lean more toward Lebron than Kobe as well. AI, Melo and Allen look better than Kobe in that too. Pretty sure someone already pointed that out though. I think Kobe is believed to be the best clutch player just because he takes so many shots late in games.

My list would be: James, Melo, Bryant, Billups, Gordon, Allen, Wade, Hedo

ManRam
07-30-2009, 01:58 PM
First of all there is a huge difference between clutch player and buzzer beater player so please define...

Brandon Roy and Dwyane Wade are the best at taking over 4th quarters, but not necessarily the most clutch with the game on the line

Ray Allen, Derek Fischer, Hedo, BEN GORDON (whos not getting nearly enuff attention in this thread), Paul Pierce, maybe even Dirk, these are the guys I want taking the buzzer beating last shot of the game

Kobe is incredibly overrated as a clutch player. He rarely ever makes buzzer beaters. In fact, he misses game winning shots all the time. He gets the rep as a clutch scorer because, lets face it, he has the smoothest jumper in the game and the sweetest shot so therefore people just assume he would be the best person to have take a last shot, but he never makes game winners. He does all his damage from like 8 minutes left in the 4th (when he usually checks back in the game) to 2 minutes left in the 4th...but not the last 30 seconds...

Lebron James? Why is he even being discussed? Because he is a superstar? Do you want Shaq in his prime taking your last shot? Get Lebron out of this thread unless he can barrel thru the defense, not get called for an offensive foul, and dunk the ball

Well, which is it? Is taking the last shot clutch, or is it not.

The stats show that LeBron and Melo, by far are the best when the game is on the line. LeBron shoots a whole 10% better than Kobe in clutch situations. He even shoots better from three. He has like 3X the assists as well. He has a higher +/- in close and late situations. What more do you want from him. He does everything better than Kobe, besides FT shooting (still an 85% clutch FT shooter) and TOs (not a huge margin).

That's why he's being discussed. Because when the game is on the line, no one can take over like he can. Not even Kobe. I'd rather have Kobe for the last shot, but like you kind of said, that isn't all that clutch is.

DaBUU
07-30-2009, 02:03 PM
Is this thread about a clutch player or who has made more game winning shots? I think theres a difference. Clutch players are guys that you can always count on bringing you back from a deficit in the last 5-10 minutes of the game, someone who goes out and score 40 in a game 7, etc. Thats different than looking up the stat of who has the most buzzer beaters.

DaBUU
07-30-2009, 02:03 PM
Well, which is it? Is taking the last shot clutch, or is it not.

The stats show that LeBron and Melo, by far are the best when the game is on the line. LeBron shoots a whole 10% better than Kobe in clutch situations. He even shoots better from three. He has like 3X the assists as well. He has a higher +/- in close and late situations. What more do you want from him. He does everything better than Kobe, besides FT shooting (still an 85% clutch FT shooter) and TOs (not a huge margin).

That's why he's being discussed. Because when the game is on the line, no one can take over like he can. Not even Kobe. I'd rather have Kobe for the last shot, but like you kind of said, that isn't all that clutch is.

Thats what im saying but you beat me to it.

Ju-23
07-30-2009, 02:11 PM
Paul Pierce=The Truth Or Ray-Ray

AK23
07-30-2009, 02:26 PM
Paul Pierce=The Truth Or Ray-Ray

paul pierce definitly, not sure about ray-ray

cmacmath
07-31-2009, 10:41 AM
Well, which is it? Is taking the last shot clutch, or is it not.

The stats show that LeBron and Melo, by far are the best when the game is on the line. LeBron shoots a whole 10% better than Kobe in clutch situations. He even shoots better from three. He has like 3X the assists as well. He has a higher +/- in close and late situations. What more do you want from him. He does everything better than Kobe, besides FT shooting (still an 85% clutch FT shooter) and TOs (not a huge margin).

That's why he's being discussed. Because when the game is on the line, no one can take over like he can. Not even Kobe. I'd rather have Kobe for the last shot, but like you kind of said, that isn't all that clutch is.

Yeah, I think I'm kind of agreeing with you, I just don't know how to say it...I guess clutch and taking the last shot are the same thing, what I'm trying to ask is, is this thread about working under pressure (whole 4th quarter, last 5 minutes, etc) or just straight up taking the last shot of the game...

If I'm down by 8 with 5 minutes left to play I'll take Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Roy, all these superstar guys that can create their own shots

However, if its tied, one possession left, game on the line...i dont want those guys taking my last shot...ill take Pierce, Ben Gordon, Ray Allen, other players over them...even the Derek Fishers, Roger Masons, and Robert Horrys have proved to be better in these situations that Kobe...I guess that is what I'm saying...

Make sense?? Lol...

ManRam
07-31-2009, 10:50 AM
Yeah, I think I'm kind of agreeing with you, I just don't know how to say it...I guess clutch and taking the last shot are the same thing, what I'm trying to ask is, is this thread about working under pressure (whole 4th quarter, last 5 minutes, etc) or just straight up taking the last shot of the game...

If I'm down by 8 with 5 minutes left to play I'll take Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Roy, all these superstar guys that can create their own shots

However, if its tied, one possession left, game on the line...i dont want those guys taking my last shot...ill take Pierce, Ben Gordon, Ray Allen, other players over them...even the Derek Fishers, Roger Masons, and Robert Horrys have proved to be better in these situations that Kobe...I guess that is what I'm saying...

Make sense?? Lol...

It does make sense...the best person at taking buzzer beater shots isn't necessarily the most clutch player IMO. I think clutch is anytime late in a close game. It's just as good to score four straight baskets with 2 minutes left and take a two/three possession lead as it is to hit a buzzer beater sometimes. If you have a player who can take over before the buzzer sounds, that's better than having to rely on a buzzer beater. That's why I think LeBron and Melo are the two closers I'd most have. They take over, and are extrememly efficient scorers late in close games. Kobe, Wade and Roy are close afterwards. LeBron's FG%, and assist rate are insane late in close games. He shoots a full 10% better than Kobe. Sure, Kobe is the better knock-down shooter, but LeBron has more an ability to put the game out of reach before you need the big shot. That's just as clutch IMO.

Moral of the story, I'd much rather have any of those 5 players on the court in a close playoff game than a notoriously amazing buzzer beater shooter like Horry, Fish or Mason etc. Those 5 guys can end the game before you need the buzzer beater.