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View Full Version : Lee Dealt to Phillies, What Now?



blujaysrock
07-29-2009, 01:52 PM
12:42pm: Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi report that the sides have agreed to a deal that sends Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco to Philly for Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Lou Marson. The teams still have to examine medical records for the deal to go through.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9866498/MLB-trade-deadline-buzz:-Wednesday%27s-edition

That puts the odds of them getting Doc slim to none now, but we still have the Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees and possibly Texas.

MVPedroia
07-29-2009, 01:53 PM
Send him to us :D

Havoc Wreaker
07-29-2009, 01:55 PM
Now you guys watch Halladay's price go down and either deal him within the division or keep him until next year

blujaysrock
07-29-2009, 01:58 PM
Now you guys watch Halladay's price go down and either deal him within the division or keep him until next year

I'd actually prefer we keep him, without Doc I would have no one to watch on the Jays besides Ricky Romero.

Raider24
07-29-2009, 02:02 PM
I rather keep him then get really nothing in return, if a team isn't willing to give up a lot for THE best pitcher in baseball i wouldn't do the deal either

rubeus
07-29-2009, 02:08 PM
I think this acutally helps the jays chances of dealing.
Now that lee is off the market Halladay becomes the only option for teams.
Plus NL teams will have to load up to be competitive with the
Phillies.

Hey if we don't trade him thats fine with me.

Tannertucker
07-29-2009, 02:08 PM
Now you guys watch Halladay's price go down and either deal him within the division or keep him until next year

How does his value go down..
Phillies gave up 4 of their their top 10 prospects for a pitcher nowhere near as good as Halladay

Macedonian
07-29-2009, 02:11 PM
I think this acutally helps the jays chances of dealing.
Now that lee is off the market Halladay becomes the only option for teams.
Plus NL teams will have to load up to be competitive with the
Phillies.

Hey if we don't trade him thats fine with me.
x 2

forum199
07-29-2009, 02:13 PM
How does his value go down..
Phillies gave up 4 of their their top 10 prospects for a pitcher nowhere near as good as Halladay

Umm I think you're wrong about the nowhere near as good. Yeah, Halladay's better, but I'd say its pretty close. The guy won the Cy Young last year, and has thrown 152 IP this year to workhorse Halladay's 140 IP. Everyone just expects him to not be that good, because he doesn't throw 97. Face it, the Jays asked for way too much.

Roy's making 17 mil next year, while Lee is making 7 mil.

Don't tell me that Cliff Lee doesn't deserve almost as equal value as Halladay. 10 mil goes a long way in this economy.

JP overplayed his hand, and now you guys are left with two suitors who you already disregarded earlier (Dodgers and Angels).

Only way this can be salvaged is if JP finds a great trade in the off-season for Roy. Perhaps in the off-season, a window for negotiation talks could be granted to the team getting Roy and accordingly, it would be willing to pay more in prospects.

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 02:15 PM
Guess the Phillies don't want the best pitcher in baseball....

miller74
07-29-2009, 02:18 PM
I'd actually prefer we keep him, without Doc I would have no one to watch on the Jays besides Ricky Romero.

So your a Halladay and Romero fan and not a Jays Fan?

This is garbage the phillies were the best suitor for us and JP ****** it up, the had the best prospect and were willing to deal.

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 02:19 PM
Umm I think you're wrong about the nowhere near as good. Yeah, Halladay's better, but I'd say its pretty close. The guy won the Cy Young last year, and has thrown 152 IP this year to workhorse Halladay's 140 IP. Everyone just expects him to not be that good, because he doesn't throw 97. Face it, the Jays asked for way too much.

Roy's making 17 mil next year, while Lee is making 7 mil.

Don't tell me that Cliff Lee doesn't deserve almost as equal value as Halladay. 10 mil goes a long way in this economy.

JP overplayed his hand, and now you guys are left with two suitors who you already disregarded earlier (Dodgers and Angels).

Only way this can be salvaged is if JP finds a great trade in the off-season for Roy. Perhaps in the off-season, a window for negotiation talks could be granted to the team getting Roy and accordingly, it would be willing to pay more in prospects.


Yeah, Lee was good last year, but that's pretty much the only good year he's had. He's 7-9 this year, and sure he only has a 3.14 ERA and 1.30 WHIP, but to compare those numbers to Halladay's (11-2, 2.62 ERA, 1.05 WHIP), there's not really a competition. The move helps the Phillies a lot, but I wouldn't call them the World Series favourite like I would have if they got Halladay.

And they didn't ask for too much, they have arguably the best pitcher in baseball, the price should be high.

blujaysrock
07-29-2009, 02:21 PM
Umm I think you're wrong about the nowhere near as good. Yeah, Halladay's better, but I'd say its pretty close. The guy won the Cy Young last year, and has thrown 152 IP this year to workhorse Halladay's 140 IP. Everyone just expects him to not be that good, because he doesn't throw 97. Face it, the Jays asked for way too much.

Roy's making 17 mil next year, while Lee is making 7 mil.

Don't tell me that Cliff Lee doesn't deserve almost as equal value as Halladay. 10 mil goes a long way in this economy.

JP overplayed his hand, and now you guys are left with two suitors who you already disregarded earlier (Dodgers and Angels).

Only way this can be salvaged is if JP finds a great trade in the off-season for Roy. Perhaps in the off-season, a window for negotiation talks could be granted to the team getting Roy and accordingly, it would be willing to pay more in prospects.

Let's just get one thing straight there

Doc has started 19 games and averages 7.4ip per start which would put him at roughly 163IP for the season if he started 22 games like Lee has.

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Let's just get one thing straight there

Doc has started 19 games and averages 7.4ip per start which would put him at roughly 163IP for the season if he started 22 games like Lee has.

Yeah Doc went on the DL earlier this year.

miller74
07-29-2009, 02:23 PM
I have defended JP in the past but if he cant max value for Halladay (which is now) then he needs to be fired.

blujaysrock
07-29-2009, 02:26 PM
So your a Halladay and Romero fan and not a Jays Fan?

This is garbage the phillies were the best suitor for us and JP ****** it up, the had the best prospect and were willing to deal.

No, sorry if I worded that wrong I meant to say I look forward to watching Romero and Doc pitch out off all the Jays as they are my favorite Jays. Everyone likes watching their favorite pitcher pitch more than a scrub.

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 02:27 PM
I have defended JP in the past but if he cant max value for Halladay (which is now) then he needs to be fired.

Not really his fault, if teams aren't willing to step up and make an offer good enough to get Halladay, he can't help it. I think it's good that he's putting his foot down and not taking anything else other than what he wanted and not what the other teams want.

Macedonian
07-29-2009, 02:32 PM
Joel Sherman of the New York Post says the Blue Jays wouldn't accept Jason Knapp as the centerpiece of a deal and instead insisted on obtaining Kyle Drabek. Sherman cites an executive who says the Red Sox have the best chance of obtaining Halladay now that the Phillies will acquire Lee.

bomber0104
07-29-2009, 02:32 PM
I'm not a huge JP supporter but I think he is doing his best here. you can't trade Halladay without getting a pitcher with ace potential. The Phillies didn't want to give Drabek so dealing with them would have been stupid. I would rather get buchholz even if the other guys in the deal are less than the guys Philadelphia were offering which i dont think they will

bomber0104
07-29-2009, 02:33 PM
Joel Sherman of the New York Post says the Blue Jays wouldn't accept Jason Knapp as the centerpiece of a deal and instead insisted on obtaining Kyle Drabek. Sherman cites an executive who says the Red Sox have the best chance of obtaining Halladay now that the Phillies will acquire Lee.

good for you JP... who the **** trades the best pitcher in baseball for deal centered around a future closer

Big Hurt
07-29-2009, 02:38 PM
Umm I think you're wrong about the nowhere near as good. Yeah, Halladay's better, but I'd say its pretty close. The guy won the Cy Young last year, and has thrown 152 IP this year to workhorse Halladay's 140 IP. Everyone just expects him to not be that good, because he doesn't throw 97. Face it, the Jays asked for way too much.

Roy's making 17 mil next year, while Lee is making 7 mil.

Don't tell me that Cliff Lee doesn't deserve almost as equal value as Halladay. 10 mil goes a long way in this economy.

JP overplayed his hand, and now you guys are left with two suitors who you already disregarded earlier (Dodgers and Angels).

Only way this can be salvaged is if JP finds a great trade in the off-season for Roy. Perhaps in the off-season, a window for negotiation talks could be granted to the team getting Roy and accordingly, it would be willing to pay more in prospects.

Not only do I disagree with your opinion, your facts are off.
Doc is not due to make $17 million next year.
Cliff Lee is up and down with his consistency.
Doc has the best record in baseball the past 7 years, and that is on a .500 team.
Lee and Halladay may be close in a head-to-head one game playoff, but not even in the same conversation as who is the better pitcher.

Is Lee a top 2 in all of baseball for SPs?
Lee has a career ERA on the wrong side of 4.
Case closed!!!

leafsjays1
07-29-2009, 02:41 PM
It doesn't even matter Cliff Lee is a Tier 2 pitcher he isn't elite like Halladay and few others, (Beckett, Santana, Lincecum) They now have 5 Lefties which is stupid and now this also make Halladay's value that much higher to give up more to compete

miller74
07-29-2009, 02:42 PM
JP didnt only insist on getting Drabek they wanted Happ and Drabek. Why was JP was demanding a 27 year old when this should be a rebuilding trade. of coarse a contending team isnt going to trade a part of their rotation. Why a team that is so obviously not going to contend doesnt trade players that r going to leave anyway is beyond me. Could we have not gotten more for Burnett then the picks? instead we just let him pitch here increase his value then let him walk. JP could have gotten a very acceptable package from the Phillies but was set on ripping someone off stroke his own ego and save his job. That was the best offer they r going to get withouth trading him within the division

DigglinDickers
07-29-2009, 02:44 PM
Will it be a done deal at all if the Dodgers throw in Chad Billingsley?

blujaysrock
07-29-2009, 02:46 PM
JP didnt only insist on getting Drabek they wanted Happ and Drabek. Why was JP was demanding a 27 year old when this should be a rebuilding trade. of coarse a contending team isnt going to trade a part of their rotation. Why a team that is so obviously not going to contend doesnt trade players that r going to leave anyway is beyond me. Could we have not gotten more for Burnett then the picks? instead we just let him pitch here increase his value then let him walk. JP could have gotten a very acceptable package from the Phillies but was set on ripping someone off stroke his own ego and save his job. That was the best offer they r going to get withouth trading him within the division

I'm pretty sure he wanted someone who could step right into the rotation.

blujaysrock
07-29-2009, 02:47 PM
Will it be a done deal at all if the Dodgers throw in Chad Billingsley?

I'd have to think it would, I think that's what JP is looking for maybe Billingsly and a couple mid specs or something.

forum199
07-29-2009, 02:48 PM
Not only do I disagree with your opinion, your facts are off.
Doc is not due to make $17 million next year.
Cliff Lee is up and down with his consistency.
Doc has the best record in baseball the past 7 years, and that is on a .500 team.
Lee and Halladay may be close in a head-to-head one game playoff, but not even in the same conversation as who is the better pitcher.

Is Lee a top 2 in all of baseball for SPs?
Lee has a career ERA on the wrong side of 4.
Case closed!!!

My facts are off? Cliff Lee didn't win the Cy Young last year? He doesn't have more innings thrown than Halladay? Halladay doesn't make 17 mil a year? Oh, wait youre right on that one, he makes 16 mil. :clap:

It's a good thing your career ERA doesn't count when you pitch your next start. It's funny you consider the numbers he put up more than 18 months ago to be more significant than the ones he's put up consistently in the last 18. It's not like he's 29, and in the typical prime of one's career where one is expected to put up his best numbers.

Cliff Lee can hang with Halladay in a one-game playoff, but Roy is better ok? Ok dude, fine. Good thing reputation isn't a factor in determining the results of a playoff series.

Is Cliff Lee a top 2 pitcher in the game? Gee, I don't know maybe not. But what does that Cy Young tell you from last year? He certainly was last year, and is proving it was no fluke. I don't think he has to be a top 2 pitcher, to be considered similar to Halladay. Is there a huge difference between Halladay, Lincecum, Felix Hernandez, Sabathia (who was the best last year), or the other best? Probably not a huge difference, and I think Lee has proven he belongs in the most elite class of pitchers. That's close enough.

JP insisted on both of the Phillies most major league ready pitchers (Drabek and Happ) PLUS their best positional prospect (Brown). Shapiro (the master of getting value in trades) was happy to take neither of those two guys (Carrasco and Knapp) and neither of their two best positional prospects (OF's Brown and Taylor). I don't think its completely reckless to say JP was overvaluing Halladay. And no, that doesn't mean I'm saying he's overrated (so please spare me all the angry comments accusing me of saying that).

The Phillies will have Cliff Lee + 10 mil to spend in FA next summer instead of Roy Halladay. I'd say that makes their trade value pretty similar. Remember what economy we're dealing in. 10 mil is enough to acquire a 40 HR, 120 RBI slugger like Adam Dunn.

Yeah, I'd say I've made my case a little better than you.

CaptainBolduke
07-29-2009, 02:48 PM
I'd actually prefer we keep him, without Doc I would have no one to watch on the Jays besides Ricky Romero.

Well if you like constant 3rd and 4th place finishes for the time being then years of 5th place finishes once Halladay leaves and a very slim minor league system this could be the best thing for you.

I am starting to get worried that we may go with the status-quo.
This is the best shot we have ever had to have a very fast and true re-build. Trading Doc speeds up the rebuilding process to only 3 years instead of 5 or 6.

Doc/Scutaro/Rolen/Downs/Barajas/Camp should all be traded. Flyers should also be be put out on Frasor/Overbay/Wells/League.

We have real opportinuty to do something special here. Let's not f$% this up.

blujaysrock
07-29-2009, 02:52 PM
1:43pm: Ricciardi tells Sherman he expects to keep Halladay through 2010 and try to win next year.

http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archives/2009/07/jays_gm_thinks.html

miller74
07-29-2009, 02:57 PM
I'm pretty sure he wanted someone who could step right into the rotation.

Its a trade thats going to helps us rebuild, who cares about the next 2 months of the year. what is the diffence if we finish 4 or 5 because that might be the only thing it would accomplish

DiPasquale7
07-29-2009, 03:18 PM
I find it interesting that the phils still have all of the prospects the jays wanted for halladay. Maybe they will step up and offer drabek, happ and brown.. think about it for them. In the playoffs for the next two seasons they'd be sending out a 4 man rotation of:

Halladay
Hamels
Lee
Moyer/Blanton/Lopez

They'd be favs to win the WS for the next two seasons...

It obviously wont happen but if I was the phils GM, Id be thinking long and hard about it...

statquo
07-29-2009, 03:22 PM
I don't know if anyone has said it, but this was a lose/lose for JP. If he holds onto him, you get what you are seeing now. People saying he couldn't pull the trigger or trade him when his value was high, JP's an idiot.. blah blah. If he does trade him, people will look for the tiniest detail to criticize the package we get in return. I think it was good not to trade low. I said from the start Drabek or bust. Thinking they could get a deal done by not including him for the best pitcher in ball is almost insulting. Sure he could've traded him when his value is high, but you have to get some high value back. The Phillies weren't offering us anything special outside of Happ. The offer we rejected didn't have Drabek or even Brown in it.

The reason a lot of people hate on JP, IMO, is he has never said what direction we're going. And even with the Halladay rumours, he still hasn't. Everyone speculates and when he does something to the contrary of what you think he's doing, you jump all over him.

I commend JP for not giving into the pressure to make a deal and get less then what we should get back. Who knows what happens in the offseason anyways.

The Analyst
07-29-2009, 03:42 PM
If JP says that they're now going to keep Halladay and compete in 2010, then shouldn't he be making some deals that will make that a reality - because it's pretty obvious that the team can't compete the way it's constructed right now.

Who's going to be the SS or catcher in 2010? What about Wells and Rios - does he just assume that they'll all of a sudden play to their potential? What are the chances that Marcum will come back (it's not like Janssen exactly panned out)? What about McGowan - he's a freakin' enigma!

If JP doesn’t stop grand standing and start actually improving this ball club it going to be a G-D train wreck in 2010.

Rochesta
07-29-2009, 03:52 PM
Good no-trade by JP. The Phillies didn't have poop. The prospects they offered up were not immediate-impact players.

Losing Philly makes no difference to the Halladay trade market. They were never serious if they weren't going to offer Drabek.

bomber0104
07-29-2009, 03:53 PM
while I agree with the Jays not trading halladays for nothing... i want JP to trade every other tradeable piece. His last comment about leaving Halladay through 2010 make me nervous. I hope he doesnt' think we can win with this team especially since the ownership isnt planning to spend money like we were told initially

Dark Donnie
07-29-2009, 03:56 PM
So in the end Amaro offered

Carrasco, Marson, Donald, Knapp and Happ and he said no.

wamco
07-29-2009, 03:56 PM
hmmm tricky situation. while I don't necessarily think he was asking for too much, Lee came much cheaper than I thought. The points about lee making 7m next year and halladay making 16 is very valid. I don't however, think the window to negotiate an extension is a hangup as the team will have 1.5 years to negotiate an extension/sell them on the franchise.

What does this do for his value? Tough to say. On one hand you have a lower package sent over for Lee which would seem to think that Halladay's price should come down. On the other hand as someone pointed out, there is no longer a back up plan with lee off the board. Which pulls the value to a greater degree is the question?

wamco
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
and giving a team in the division roy halladay for a bunch of question marks doesn't seem like a bright idea to me.

Rochesta
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
^^ @ Bomber I think that we should deal Scutaro, Overbay and Rolen this week. Get something for them for next year.

Next year really relies on Snider, Rios and Wells more than anything else. If they can put up the numbers that they should put up, we'll be in good shape. Remember, we'll have Marcum back.

Rochesta
07-29-2009, 03:58 PM
So in the end Amaro offered

Carrasco, Marson, Donald, Knapp and Happ and he said no.

Which is a good thing. That's a poop offer.

Big Hurt
07-29-2009, 04:03 PM
My facts are off? Cliff Lee didn't win the Cy Young last year? He doesn't have more innings thrown than Halladay? Halladay doesn't make 17 mil a year? Oh, wait youre right on that one, he makes 16 mil. :clap:

It's a good thing your career ERA doesn't count when you pitch your next start. It's funny you consider the numbers he put up more than 18 months ago to be more significant than the ones he's put up consistently in the last 18. It's not like he's 29, and in the typical prime of one's career where one is expected to put up his best numbers.

Cliff Lee can hang with Halladay in a one-game playoff, but Roy is better ok? Ok dude, fine. Good thing reputation isn't a factor in determining the results of a playoff series.

Is Cliff Lee a top 2 pitcher in the game? Gee, I don't know maybe not. But what does that Cy Young tell you from last year? He certainly was last year, and is proving it was no fluke. I don't think he has to be a top 2 pitcher, to be considered similar to Halladay. Is there a huge difference between Halladay, Lincecum, Felix Hernandez, Sabathia (who was the best last year), or the other best? Probably not a huge difference, and I think Lee has proven he belongs in the most elite class of pitchers. That's close enough.

JP insisted on both of the Phillies most major league ready pitchers (Drabek and Happ) PLUS their best positional prospect (Brown). Shapiro (the master of getting value in trades) was happy to take neither of those two guys (Carrasco and Knapp) and neither of their two best positional prospects (OF's Brown and Taylor). I don't think its completely reckless to say JP was overvaluing Halladay. And no, that doesn't mean I'm saying he's overrated (so please spare me all the angry comments accusing me of saying that).

The Phillies will have Cliff Lee + 10 mil to spend in FA next summer instead of Roy Halladay. I'd say that makes their trade value pretty similar. Remember what economy we're dealing in. 10 mil is enough to acquire a 40 HR, 120 RBI slugger like Adam Dunn.

Yeah, I'd say I've made my case a little better than you.

Yeah, great case Lee is better than Halladay.
Lee will take his sub-.500 record with him to the National League....and do pretty well too. His wins will increase, and ERA will drop. If the Phils make the World Series they will be WISHING they paid the extra to get Roy.

And why again did Cleveland send Lee to the minors in 2007???
I remember now, it was his 6.29 ERA.

Now lets tuck this away and compare notes after the playoffs this year.
And get a calculator that works a little better when doing the math on their contract values.
$7.75 difference for next year.

See you in September!

madmike77
07-29-2009, 04:03 PM
I'm no fan of Ricciardi, but if this is all the Phillies were offering, plus Happ, then it really wasn't worth dealing Halladay.

Yeah these guys are top-10 organizational prospects, but none of them is in the Phillies current top-3. You don't trade one of the best pitchers in baseball for a bunch of second- and third-tier prospects. Ricciardi was right not to pull the trigger on this deal.

From skimming the Cleveland forums, they're certainly not happy with the trade.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 04:20 PM
My facts are off? Cliff Lee didn't win the Cy Young last year? He doesn't have more innings thrown than Halladay? Halladay doesn't make 17 mil a year? Oh, wait youre right on that one, he makes 16 mil. :clap:

It's a good thing your career ERA doesn't count when you pitch your next start. It's funny you consider the numbers he put up more than 18 months ago to be more significant than the ones he's put up consistently in the last 18. It's not like he's 29, and in the typical prime of one's career where one is expected to put up his best numbers.

Cliff Lee can hang with Halladay in a one-game playoff, but Roy is better ok? Ok dude, fine. Good thing reputation isn't a factor in determining the results of a playoff series.

Is Cliff Lee a top 2 pitcher in the game? Gee, I don't know maybe not. But what does that Cy Young tell you from last year? He certainly was last year, and is proving it was no fluke. I don't think he has to be a top 2 pitcher, to be considered similar to Halladay. Is there a huge difference between Halladay, Lincecum, Felix Hernandez, Sabathia (who was the best last year), or the other best? Probably not a huge difference, and I think Lee has proven he belongs in the most elite class of pitchers. That's close enough.

JP insisted on both of the Phillies most major league ready pitchers (Drabek and Happ) PLUS their best positional prospect (Brown). Shapiro (the master of getting value in trades) was happy to take neither of those two guys (Carrasco and Knapp) and neither of their two best positional prospects (OF's Brown and Taylor). I don't think its completely reckless to say JP was overvaluing Halladay. And no, that doesn't mean I'm saying he's overrated (so please spare me all the angry comments accusing me of saying that).

The Phillies will have Cliff Lee + 10 mil to spend in FA next summer instead of Roy Halladay. I'd say that makes their trade value pretty similar. Remember what economy we're dealing in. 10 mil is enough to acquire a 40 HR, 120 RBI slugger like Adam Dunn.

Yeah, I'd say I've made my case a little better than you.

i disagree.. doc>lee

nstojic
07-29-2009, 04:21 PM
I'm no fan of Ricciardi, but if this is all the Phillies were offering, plus Happ, then it really wasn't worth dealing Halladay.

Yeah these guys are top-10 organizational prospects, but none of them is in the Phillies current top-3. You don't trade one of the best pitchers in baseball for a bunch of second- and third-tier prospects. Ricciardi was right not to pull the trigger on this deal.

From skimming the Cleveland forums, they're certainly not happy with the trade.

it just seems like every deal i've heard is a low-ball... everyone's got these 'untouchables', yet they all want the games best arm... figure that one out?!?!

madmike77
07-29-2009, 04:31 PM
it just seems like every deal i've heard is a low-ball... everyone's got these 'untouchables', yet they all want the games best arm... figure that one out?!?!

As unlikekly as a miracle 2010 is, I'd rather keep Halladay and take a shot than trade him away for a package like that.

At least the Jays would get some kind of compensatory pick if he leaves as a FA after 2010 - that might be better than what the Indians got in this deal.

wamco
07-29-2009, 04:31 PM
I think losing our number 2-5 (then basically 6,7,8) will be a bigger difference maker than trading doc (our number 1) and the pitching stepped up very well this season.

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 04:50 PM
Johan Santana for Carlos Santana, Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey, and Deolis Guerra. And the Mets were granted 3 days to sign him to an extension, and he was 28 at the time of the deal, and I consider him at the same level if not better than halladay because he is a lefty.

Put things in perspective your not going to get 4 top prospects that are mlb ready.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 05:23 PM
As unlikekly as a miracle 2010 is, I'd rather keep Halladay and take a shot than trade him away for a package like that.

At least the Jays would get some kind of compensatory pick if he leaves as a FA after 2010 - that might be better than what the Indians got in this deal.

we'd get two of them...

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 05:39 PM
it just seems like every deal i've heard is a low-ball... everyone's got these 'untouchables', yet they all want the games best arm... figure that one out?!?!


I know, I wasa thinking the same thing. I remember looking on the internet once and saw that the Phillies said that Happ was untouchable. The same day I saw another storys saying Drabek was untouchable. I was like, "Who is touchable?" lol.

madmike77
07-29-2009, 06:00 PM
Johan Santana for Carlos Santana, Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey, and Deolis Guerra. And the Mets were granted 3 days to sign him to an extension, and he was 28 at the time of the deal, and I consider him at the same level if not better than halladay because he is a lefty.

Put things in perspective your not going to get 4 top prospects that are mlb ready.

Then don't trade him at all.

If all you're getting back is mediocre prospects you're better off not doing a deal. I'm fine with Halladay staying in Toronto and generating at least some interest in what will likely be an otherwise brutal season.

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 06:11 PM
im saying all your going to get is mediocre prospects if they keep being greedy

Buchholz and one of anderson/bowden/masterson + something is hardly mediocre players

but your gm wants all 4 of those guys probably. which is completely insane

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 06:14 PM
im saying all your going to get is mediocre prospects if they keep being greedy

Buchholz and one of anderson/bowden/masterson + something is hardly mediocre players

but your gm wants all 4 of those guys probably. which is completely insane

You don't get it. JP isn't trying to give Halladay away. All he simply said was that he'd listen to offers for Halladay. That doesn't mean that he's on the block. All this time he's said that he'd have to be wowed to trade him, which would mean getting the top 3 or 4 prospets from the team they're trading him too. It's completely fair if JP is asking for a lot for him. If he doesn't trade him, well then oh well, they just simply keep the best pitcher in baseball.

madmike77
07-29-2009, 06:21 PM
im saying all your going to get is mediocre prospects if they keep being greedy

Buchholz and one of anderson/bowden/masterson + something is hardly mediocre players

but your gm wants all 4 of those guys probably. which is completely insane

Ah ok I agree - I'd take the Buchholz, Bowden and parts deal. I wouldn't have done the Philly deal though - if it was the same package plus Happ that was offered to the Jays.

homer2680
07-29-2009, 06:22 PM
im saying all your going to get is mediocre prospects if they keep being greedy

Buchholz and one of anderson/bowden/masterson + something is hardly mediocre players

but your gm wants all 4 of those guys probably. which is completely insane

These Toronto guys are idiots. They don't understand how it works. Keep your pitcher, but if you offer him in a trade you are not going to get what a player is worth. You get prospect. According to the preseason rankings the phillies were offering 2-3-4-7-8 in there top 10. Not bad.

homer2680
07-29-2009, 06:24 PM
Ah ok I agree - I'd take the Buchholz, Bowden and parts deal. I wouldn't have done the Philly deal though - if it was the same package plus Happ that was offered to the Jays.

The Phillies offered a different package before. When Toronto called before we made the Lee deal we offered the same deal we were giving Cleveland plus Happ.

I am glad your happy and get to keep your guy. Have fun with him. I am sure he will do you well.

homer2680
07-29-2009, 06:26 PM
You don't get it. JP isn't trying to give Halladay away. All he simply said was that he'd listen to offers for Halladay. That doesn't mean that he's on the block. All this time he's said that he'd have to be wowed to trade him, which would mean getting the top 3 or 4 prospets from the team they're trading him too. It's completely fair if JP is asking for a lot for him. If he doesn't trade him, well then oh well, they just simply keep the best pitcher in baseball.

Keep him, when he walks as a free agent you get 2 comp picks. They will do something for you in 4-5 years. JP could have rebuilt the team in 2 years now you will wait 5. Good move. Stupid.

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 06:32 PM
also i don't understand how some of you fail to understand that keeping Halladay only hurts the Jays.

Sorry to sound ignorant but your sure as hell not winning this year, and you will not either next year.

You will get to a point where Halladay will be on the block and when that happens you wont get as much as you could get now

madmike77
07-29-2009, 06:33 PM
This team isn't being rebuilt in two years, regardless of any trades they make. There isn't much on the farm and they're stuck with a bunch of bad long-term deals. Realistically this team will be stuck in 4th or 5th for the next several years.

madmike77
07-29-2009, 06:37 PM
also i don't understand how some of you fail to understand that keeping Halladay only hurts the Jays.

Sorry to sound ignorant but your sure as hell not winning this year, and you will not either next year.

You will get to a point where Halladay will be on the block and when that happens you wont get as much as you could get now

Baseball here isn't the same as it is in Boston. Fan support is already bad. If they unload Halladay with little coming back in return, the Jays will be looking at sub-20,000 crowds next year.

Attendance is already down around 30% this year - largely because the fan base has no confidence that the team is going anywhere.

A good start would be getting rid of Ricciardi. His arrogance and continued bravado despite a brutal drafting record and poor management really grates on fans.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 06:56 PM
im saying all your going to get is mediocre prospects if they keep being greedy

Buchholz and one of anderson/bowden/masterson + something is hardly mediocre players

but your gm wants all 4 of those guys probably. which is completely insane

look, for the thousandth time!!! roy has not said 'i'm testing free agency.' he's said i like it here, i would prefer to stay here. but i'll let this contract run out and see where we're at... meaning, jays, get me a ****ing better team... just like chris bosh, lebron, wade have all told their teams... simple...

so, there's not this imaginary pressure on us to deal him.. you boston guys are belligerent as hell.. yes, we know your team is amazing.. we get it...we know we're not winning this year, champ. you can't just have roy because you're boston.. and i think that's getting under your skin.. suck it! hahaha


also, we want beckett... we'll give you snider, mills and litsch... take it or leave it.. what's wrong with the offer? you're idiots for not taking it, your gm is ********.... how did that feel?


keep your ****ing buchholz.. what's he done since his no-no? that's right, AAA god......

madmike77
07-29-2009, 07:03 PM
These Toronto guys are idiots. They don't understand how it works. Keep your pitcher, but if you offer him in a trade you are not going to get what a player is worth. You get prospect. According to the preseason rankings the phillies were offering 2-3-4-7-8 in there top 10. Not bad.

The other thing to note is that was according to pre-season.

Carrasco has been brutal this year. He's sporting an ERA of 5+ in AAA.

Donald's a decent bat, but he won't play SS in the majors.

Happ is 26 and came from nowhere. He could be for real, or he could be the next Josh Towers.

Knapp may work out; may not. He's 19 and having a poor season in low A, but it's a bit early to judge him.

Really the only piece the Jays could use in the next 2 years is Happ. They have Hill at 2B so don't really need Donald.

madmike77
07-29-2009, 07:04 PM
Just to reiterate though I would do the Buchholz, Bowden + parts deal. Those 2 alone look better than what the Phils were offering.

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 07:11 PM
look, for the thousandth time!!! roy has not said 'i'm testing free agency.' he's said i like it here, i would prefer to stay here. but i'll let this contract run out and see where we're at... meaning, jays, get me a ****ing better team... just like chris bosh, lebron, wade have all told their teams... simple...

so, there's not this imaginary pressure on us to deal him.. you boston guys are belligerent as hell.. yes, we know your team is amazing.. we get it...we know we're not winning this year, champ. you can't just have roy because you're boston.. and i think that's getting under your skin.. suck it! hahaha


also, we want beckett... we'll give you snider, mills and litsch... take it or leave it.. what's wrong with the offer? you're idiots for not taking it, your gm is ********.... how did that feel?


keep your ****ing buchholz.. what's he done since his no-no? that's right, AAA god......


hmmm how did the Os get better.... oh yeah thats right unloading bedard for prospects, 2 turned out better than expected, sherill has been good, Butler has been disappointing, but you know what the O's are going to be better than the Jays soon

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 07:13 PM
hmmm how did the Os get better.... oh yeah thats right unloading bedard for prospects, 2 turned out better than expected, sherill has been good, Butler has been disappointing, but you know what the O's are going to be better than the Jays soon

Bedard isn't exactly the best pitcher in baseball like Halladay is.

Twitchy
07-29-2009, 07:16 PM
Johan Santana for Carlos Santana, Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey, and Deolis Guerra. And the Mets were granted 3 days to sign him to an extension, and he was 28 at the time of the deal, and I consider him at the same level if not better than halladay because he is a lefty.

Put things in perspective your not going to get 4 top prospects that are mlb ready.

Think you mean Carlos Gomez.

And there's a significant difference between trading Halladay for 9 months, having him in 2 post seasons, vs having Johan for one year + the extensions.

By the way, the extension talk for the Mets vs no time for Halladay is nonsense. He said he wants to play for a winner - he wouldn't waive his no trade clause and then just not sign an extension (if it's a reasonable offer). So it's a poor example on your part.


So in the end Amaro offered

Carrasco, Marson, Donald, Knapp and Happ and he said no.

A good move by JP. Happ, Donald & Marson aren't anything special.


My facts are off? Cliff Lee didn't win the Cy Young last year? He doesn't have more innings thrown than Halladay? Halladay doesn't make 17 mil a year? Oh, wait youre right on that one, he makes 16 mil. :clap:

As pointed out Halladay was injured and I believe someone else pointed out throws more IP/game.


It's a good thing your career ERA doesn't count when you pitch your next start. It's funny you consider the numbers he put up more than 18 months ago to be more significant than the ones he's put up consistently in the last 18. It's not like he's 29, and in the typical prime of one's career where one is expected to put up his best numbers.

Cliff Lee can hang with Halladay in a one-game playoff, but Roy is better ok? Ok dude, fine. Good thing reputation isn't a factor in determining the results of a playoff series.

Cliff Lee's a pretty good pitcher, but I'd rather have Halladay now and in the future. In a one game playoff anything can happen but over a full season I think Halladay has shown to be the better pitcher. He's got a much stronger K/9, nearly twice Lee's K:BB, a better FIP and stronger GB%. All of which show Halladay is significantly better than Halladay.


Is Cliff Lee a top 2 pitcher in the game? Gee, I don't know maybe not. But what does that Cy Young tell you from last year? He certainly was last year, and is proving it was no fluke. I don't think he has to be a top 2 pitcher, to be considered similar to Halladay. Is there a huge difference between Halladay, Lincecum, Felix Hernandez, Sabathia (who was the best last year), or the other best? Probably not a huge difference, and I think Lee has proven he belongs in the most elite class of pitchers. That's close enough.

He had a tremendous year last year, but I think he's still a little behind Doc & Lincecum. After those guys it gets a bit tricky, but there's a big enough difference between Halladay and Lee whether or not you will admit it.


JP insisted on both of the Phillies most major league ready pitchers (Drabek and Happ) PLUS their best positional prospect (Brown). Shapiro (the master of getting value in trades) was happy to take neither of those two guys (Carrasco and Knapp) and neither of their two best positional prospects (OF's Brown and Taylor). I don't think its completely reckless to say JP was overvaluing Halladay. And no, that doesn't mean I'm saying he's overrated (so please spare me all the angry comments accusing me of saying that).

Halladay has more value than Lee and could (and should) have gotten more in return. Shaprio's a good guy and I'd like to say he got decent value but I would have passed on that offer. Too much quantity and not enough quality for my taste.


The Phillies will have Cliff Lee + 10 mil to spend in FA next summer instead of Roy Halladay. I'd say that makes their trade value pretty similar. Remember what economy we're dealing in. 10 mil is enough to acquire a 40 HR, 120 RBI slugger like Adam Dunn.

I thought the Phils had 3 all star OF and an all star 1B. Where's Dunn going to play?

nstojic
07-29-2009, 07:16 PM
hmmm how did the Os get better.... oh yeah thats right unloading bedard for prospects, 2 turned out better than expected, sherill has been good, Butler has been disappointing, but you know what the O's are going to be better than the Jays soon

great point, the O's are so good... man, they're the new rays!!! wait, what the... this can't be.. i thought they were better.. you lied to me papipapsmanny!!! you said they were better... they're ****ing 42-57!!! what's the timeline on them being better than the jays... 1... 2.. decades?

madmike77
07-29-2009, 07:17 PM
hmmm how did the Os get better.... oh yeah thats right unloading bedard for prospects, 2 turned out better than expected, sherill has been good, Butler has been disappointing, but you know what the O's are going to be better than the Jays soon

The Os will be better largely because of their drafting. They're going to have an awesome rotation in 2 years with Tillman, Matusz and company.

Seriously, the Jays are going to stink in the short term no matter what happens. We might as well enjoy one more season of watching Halladay.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 07:20 PM
.

Seriously, the Jays are going to stink in the short term no matter what happens. We might as well enjoy one more season of watching Halladay.

that's what i've been saying.. i wished we got something for delgado.. i prayed we'd get something for AJ... but roy's the one guy i'd rather keep till the very end.. if he can win another CY in a jays uni, i'll be as happy as if we had traded him for some prospects..

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 07:49 PM
Bedard isn't exactly the best pitcher in baseball like Halladay is.

yes but he was a lefty, 4 years younger and coming off an amazing year, especially with his K rates indicating that he would improve.

DiPasquale7
07-29-2009, 07:50 PM
The Os will be better largely because of their drafting. They're going to have an awesome rotation in 2 years with Tillman, Matusz and company.

Seriously, the Jays are going to stink in the short term no matter what happens. We might as well enjoy one more season of watching Halladay.

No you're right.... the Os are going to have a great rotation... only the jays will have a great one too.. probably better.. lets see...
theyve got the best pitcher in the game in halladay...
then theyve got Romero who is a contender for ROY...
then Cecil who just turned 23 and is already winning pretty consistently in the big leagues..
then we've got McGowan who may be returning from a serious injury.. he's mid 20's and has a fastball that tops out at 98... hes got ace stuff..
not to mention Rzepczynski who's 23 and playing really well in the big leagues..
plus theres marcum who in his mid 20's and would be a solid #3 on most teams...
then theres the 3 pitchers the jays drafted this past season who project to be pretty good...

Im not worried about this teams rotation now or any time in the near future... no need to give away the best pitcher in baseball for less then a great package.. we dont need 4 prospects who MAY one day be able to make it to the big leagues. If we are trading halladay we need pieces who can be all stars.. averge every day players or career minor leaguers dont entice me to give the best player in the game away...

nstojic
07-29-2009, 07:52 PM
No you're right.... the Os are going to have a great rotation... only the jays will have a great one too.. probably better.. lets see...
theyve got the best pitcher in the game in halladay...
then theyve got Romero who is a contender for ROY...
then Cecil who just turned 23 and is already winning pretty consistently in the big leagues..
then we've got McGowan who may be returning from a serious injury.. he's mid 20's and has a fastball that tops out at 98... hes got ace stuff..
not to mention Rzepczynski who's 23 and playing really well in the big leagues..
plus theres marcum who in his mid 20's and would be a solid #3 on most teams...
then theres the 3 pitchers the jays drafted this past season who project to be pretty good...

Im not worried about this teams rotation now or any time in the near future... no need to give away the best pitcher in baseball for less then a great package.. we dont need 4 prospects who MAY one day be able to make it to the big leagues. If we are trading halladay we need pieces who can be all stars.. averge every day players or career minor leaguers dont entice me to give the best player in the game away...

good post... and i agree.. the pitching hasn't been the problem for the last 2.5 years... even this year... sure there's been massive injuries but the rooks have kept us in games.... but this impotent offence has been in search of some viagra for the last few years...

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 07:52 PM
twitch santana had more trade value than halladay has now, but the twins got greedy and really ****ed that one up.

As for the Os yes they are going to be better than the Jays probably as soon as next year.

with the phillies out of it I wouldnt even offer buchholz anymore

I would Do Anderson, Masterson, Bowden, Bates, and Hunter Jones/Dustin Richardson. A very Fair Deal, but oh wait its not Fair because your not raping in the deal

T.O. Fan
07-29-2009, 07:53 PM
These Toronto guys are idiots. They don't understand how it works. Keep your pitcher, but if you offer him in a trade you are not going to get what a player is worth. You get prospect. According to the preseason rankings the phillies were offering 2-3-4-7-8 in there top 10. Not bad.

Those are not accurate rankings.

I assume you're using Baseball America's rankings which list none of the players traded to Cleveland in at least the top 3 for the Phillies (Brown, Drabek, Taylor).

H-MYK
07-29-2009, 07:53 PM
That trade surprised me because Lee isn't playing as well as he was last year. I don't think he would play in his Cy Young form anytime soon.

T.O. Fan
07-29-2009, 07:54 PM
twitch santana had more trade value than halladay has now, but the twins got greedy and really ****ed that one up.

As for the Os yes they are going to be better than the Jays probably as soon as next year.

with the phillies out of it I wouldnt even offer buchholz anymore

I would Do Anderson, Masterson, Bowden, Bates, and Hunter Jones/Dustin Richardson. A very Fair Deal, but oh wait its not Fair because your not raping in the deal

I personally don't think it really matters that the Phillies are no longer in it.

1 team was subtracted, but the #1 guy after Halladay was also moved.

Twitchy
07-29-2009, 07:56 PM
twitch santana had more trade value than halladay has now, but the twins got greedy and really ****ed that one up.

As for the Os yes they are going to be better than the Jays probably as soon as next year.

with the phillies out of it I wouldnt even offer buchholz anymore

I would Do Anderson, Masterson, Bowden, Bates, and Hunter Jones/Dustin Richardson. A very Fair Deal, but oh wait its not Fair because your not raping in the deal

He didn't, because he had less time to a team. Simple as that.

Whether the O's will be better than the Jays wasn't an issue I brought up or cared about, and there's too many factors (do the Jays keep/trade Halladay, do they overspend the budget to contend) to even get into that right now.

And I wouldn't do that deal either. I'm a bigger fan of quality prospects over quantity. I'd rather take 2-3 top of the line guys over 1 decent guy and a bunch of filler, which is pretty much the offer you've suggested.

I would have been happy doing Buchholz/Anderson/X, and I've said that several times now.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 07:57 PM
1 team was subtracted, but the #1 guy after Halladay was also moved.

hahah game. set. match. silly redsox, no one wants your lower tier prospects...

donatolla
07-29-2009, 07:57 PM
My facts are off? Cliff Lee didn't win the Cy Young last year? He doesn't have more innings thrown than Halladay? Halladay doesn't make 17 mil a year? Oh, wait youre right on that one, he makes 16 mil. :clap:

It's a good thing your career ERA doesn't count when you pitch your next start. It's funny you consider the numbers he put up more than 18 months ago to be more significant than the ones he's put up consistently in the last 18. It's not like he's 29, and in the typical prime of one's career where one is expected to put up his best numbers.

Cliff Lee can hang with Halladay in a one-game playoff, but Roy is better ok? Ok dude, fine. Good thing reputation isn't a factor in determining the results of a playoff series.

Is Cliff Lee a top 2 pitcher in the game? Gee, I don't know maybe not. But what does that Cy Young tell you from last year? He certainly was last year, and is proving it was no fluke. I don't think he has to be a top 2 pitcher, to be considered similar to Halladay. Is there a huge difference between Halladay, Lincecum, Felix Hernandez, Sabathia (who was the best last year), or the other best? Probably not a huge difference, and I think Lee has proven he belongs in the most elite class of pitchers. That's close enough.

JP insisted on both of the Phillies most major league ready pitchers (Drabek and Happ) PLUS their best positional prospect (Brown). Shapiro (the master of getting value in trades) was happy to take neither of those two guys (Carrasco and Knapp) and neither of their two best positional prospects (OF's Brown and Taylor). I don't think its completely reckless to say JP was overvaluing Halladay. And no, that doesn't mean I'm saying he's overrated (so please spare me all the angry comments accusing me of saying that).

The Phillies will have Cliff Lee + 10 mil to spend in FA next summer instead of Roy Halladay. I'd say that makes their trade value pretty similar. Remember what economy we're dealing in. 10 mil is enough to acquire a 40 HR, 120 RBI slugger like Adam Dunn.

Yeah, I'd say I've made my case a little better than you.

I think we had this discussion last year when Halladay should have won the Cy Young over Lee.

I've posted the link on here already (from fangraphs) that is one of a few that justifies JP's asking price for Halladay. He IS being reasonable. Halladay is a special kind of pitcher that is rarely available in trade.

Is Halladay in the elite level of pitchers? Absolutely.

Is Cliff Lee? Absolutely NOT. He had a good year last year, that's for sure. He does not, however, have anything close to a track record of doing that *every* year.

Lee's WHIP since 2004:
1.503
1.218
1.405
1.521
1.110
1.310

In comparison, Doc's WHIP since 2002:
1,191
1.071
1.346
0.960
1.100
1.243
1.053
1.050

In other words, Lee's *best* year is about on par with what Doc has been doing nearly every year since 2002.

The Phils didn't come to the table with the right amount of value available. If they wanted Roy Halladay, then they needed to return value. This is the first time I am actually proud of JP. He knows the value of his starting pitcher, and knows that he is well within his right to ask for the moon.

In this case, the Phils got what they paid for.

Twitchy
07-29-2009, 08:06 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/cliff-lee-to-philadelphia

So anybody who goes "Jays fans overvalued Halladay look at what Lee got" - the general consensus is that Shaprio made a huge mistake, and sold Lee for pennies on the dollar. Kudos to Amaro, but this isn't an indication of what Halladay's (or Lee's for that matter) value truly is.

madmike77
07-29-2009, 08:07 PM
That trade surprised me because Lee isn't playing as well as he was last year. I don't think he would play in his Cy Young form anytime soon.

He's still playing ok.

None of the prospects the Phillies traded is really a top-tier prospect, so it's not like they gave up the farm. They still have their top-3 prospects.

madmike77
07-29-2009, 08:08 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/cliff-lee-to-philadelphia

So anybody who goes "Jays fans overvalued Halladay look at what Lee got" - the general consensus is that Shaprio made a huge mistake, and sold Lee for pennies on the dollar. Kudos to Amaro, but this isn't an indication of what Halladay's (or Lee's for that matter) value truly is.

It's a great deal for the Phillies I think. Lousy deal for the Indians. They needed to get one of the top 3 guys to make this deal work and they didn't. I think Cleveland may have been a bit more desperate to unload salary than Toronto.

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 08:11 PM
He didn't, because he had less time to a team. Simple as that.
Whether the O's will be better than the Jays wasn't an issue I brought up or cared about, and there's too many factors (do the Jays keep/trade Halladay, do they overspend the budget to contend) to even get into that right now.

And I wouldn't do that deal either. I'm a bigger fan of quality prospects over quantity. I'd rather take 2-3 top of the line guys over 1 decent guy and a bunch of filler, which is pretty much the offer you've suggested.

I would have been happy doing Buchholz/Anderson/X, and I've said that several times now.

hes he did so halladay has 2 months more for a team, well the twins granted an extension time, thats a wash. Santana was a lefty, is better than Halladay and was 28 as opposed to halladay now who is 32.

yes im sure Bowden and Masterson are fillers. Go look up Bowdens numbers in AAA as a 22 year old, MLB ready. Justin Masterson 24, good stuff MLB ready, all saber stats indicate that he has been very unlucky this year, can start ot relieve. Anderson Very good prospect, struggling this year a bit but he is one of the youngest players in AA.

Aaron Bates 25 can play LF or 1B nice Power did good in his very short MLB stint, tore up AA solid platoon player. Jones or Richardson youn can be effective mlb relievers.

but there all scrubs I guess.

donatolla
07-29-2009, 08:12 PM
There are a couple of things that I'm thinking about the deal now:
- Indians did get a little hosed.
- The main competition in available starting pitching is now gone, forcing more teams to turn their attention to Halladay.
- Those teams definitely know that JP isn't caving.

Twitchy
07-29-2009, 08:18 PM
hes he did so halladay has 2 months more for a team, well the twins granted an extension time, thats a wash. Santana was a lefty, is better than Halladay and was 28 as opposed to halladay now who is 32.

The extra 2 months aren't just 10 extra starts. They mean the difference between making and missing the playoffs, which is huge. It means extra revenue for this and next year, it means a shot at the world series, and one where you've got a pretty damn good guy to pitch in game 1, 5, or 7. And that's in addition to having him guaranteed locked up for the next year, something Santana initially wasn't (which again, minor as it may be, cuts into his value).

That fact alone makes him have more valuable, age difference aside. And as I've said multiple times, who cares about a 3 day extensions when you've been granted from August 1st of 2009 to November of 2010 to sign him too one. You're getting more than just some 3 day period to sign him.


yes im sure Bowden and Masterson are fillers. Go look up Bowdens numbers in AAA as a 22 year old, MLB ready. Justin Masterson 24, good stuff MLB ready, all saber stats indicate that he has been very unlucky this year, can start ot relieve. Anderson Very good prospect, struggling this year a bit but he is one of the youngest players in AA.

Aaron Bates 25 can play LF or 1B nice Power did good in his very short MLB stint, tore up AA solid platoon player. Jones or Richardson youn can be effective mlb relievers.

Masterson has severe platoon splits and struggles to get LH hitters out which is why he's better suited in relief. Starting him over the long term is crazy. Yes, he's unlucky, but he's always going to have a weakness vs lefties.

Bowden isn't necessarily filler. but a 4.52 FIP, an increased walk rate and 6K/9 isn't necessarily studly for AAA. Major league ready he is, but I don't see him as a top tier starter. Which is one thing I'd want more than anything in return for Halladay.

Never said Anderson was bad.

Not impressed by a 25 year old in AAA. He's had good numbers, but he's old for his level. Wouldn't consider the guy with a 469 slugging a power bat, but he has great discipline.

They're not all scrubs, but I'd pass on a deal like that because again, I want quality, even if that means less prospects. Quantity deals, like the one made for Lee, are bad in the long run.

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 08:31 PM
that extension window was huge because that made it so the mets traded for 6 years of santana.

Buchholz, reddick/Anderson, and a guy like Bryan Price, and a mid tier reliever guy should get it done imo.

But from what i hear that isnt enough for JP or Jays fans

leafsjays1
07-29-2009, 08:32 PM
I like the offer that was supposedly made with a little more and since watching the Red Sox now they kinda need some pitching, but one question I have is if he went to Boston, then who would be the ace of the staff him or Beckett

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 08:45 PM
i dont think it would matter too much.

I know the Redsox are trying to get him not because of all these sill reports but because theo hasn't said a word, which is exactly how it was with matsuzaka.

When theo is silent something is up, but JP sure likes to talk to the Media a lot

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 08:48 PM
http://soxprospects.com/ redsox prospects obviously a little bias a couple guys have just been promoted so they don't show the good numbers from the level they were just at.

just posting it so you can look at some of the redsox prospects in an easier way

leafsjays1
07-29-2009, 09:00 PM
That would be a sick *** rotation for the Sox though,

1. Roy Halladay, 2. Josh Beckett, 3. John Lester, 4. Tim Wakfield, 5. Dice-K

That is nasty that's 5 possible all stars

T.O. Fan
07-29-2009, 09:10 PM
i dont think it would matter too much.

I know the Redsox are trying to get him not because of all these sill reports but because theo hasn't said a word, which is exactly how it was with matsuzaka.

When theo is silent something is up, but JP sure likes to talk to the Media a lot

That he does.

It's probably going to be his next job (in media)...

madmike77
07-29-2009, 09:21 PM
That he does.

It's probably going to be his next job (in media)...

Not in Toronto... I'm praying he isn't back next year.

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 09:28 PM
that extension window was huge because that made it so the mets traded for 6 years of santana.

Buchholz, reddick/Anderson, and a guy like Bryan Price, and a mid tier reliever guy should get it done imo.

But from what i hear that isnt enough for JP or Jays fans

This is the thing about you, you just expect Halladay to be traded. You don't just give him away for any old players. When you have the best pitcher in baseball, the asking price must be high. If you don't get something that is acceptable for a guy of Halladay's caliber, just keep him. I know that you guys are going to say, "Well at least you get something," but of you want to have any chance next year you have to keep Halladay. If the offers you get you don't think will help you win, just keep him.

And I have hopes for next year. If they get their injured pitchers back and guys like Hill and Lind keep hitting well, this team could contend. And who knows? Did anyone think the Rays were going to contend next year?

Plus, Halladay is a good mentor for young pitchers too.

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 09:32 PM
why even bother obviously you guys think the only fair deal would be anderson, kelly, buchholz, bowden, and reddick for Halladay which is beyon ridiculous

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 09:33 PM
Yeah, we do.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 09:36 PM
why even bother obviously you guys think the only fair deal would be anderson, kelly, buchholz, bowden, and reddick for Halladay which is beyon ridiculous

haha there's your package.. you just answered your own questions...

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 09:56 PM
yea thats the same thing as saying no were not trading halladay he is untouchable, if that is JPS asking price why even bother getting mixed up with Halladay, then saying were not discussing other pieces until the halladay dillema is settled. Seems so stupid

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 09:58 PM
Okay if its so stupid then just leave and go back to the Red Sox forum and start talking about how great they are.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 10:07 PM
Okay if its so stupid then just leave and go back to the Red Sox forum and start talking about how great they are.

:hi5:

bitter sox fan.. isn't it enough that you guys are stacked and have all this money and all these players.. no, you can't deal with the fact that we have doc and we value that well above all your 'precious' prospects... man, if it was reversed you'd guys would be so arrogant about it.. you'd want our top 5 prospects and even then you'd ask, 'what else ya got?'

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 10:08 PM
i don't talk about how great they are I don't understand where you get this perception, im in here posting how stupid JP is ill stop posting in here after the deadline

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 10:09 PM
:hi5:

bitter sox fan.. isn't it enough that you guys are stacked and have all this money and all these players.. no, you can't deal with the fact that we have doc and we value that well above all your 'precious' prospects... man, if it was reversed you'd guys would be so arrogant about it.. you'd want our top 5 prospects and even then you'd ask, 'what else ya got?'

no im basing of things off history. What makes you think you should get so much more for a 32 year old halladay than a 28 year old Santana?

nstojic
07-29-2009, 10:12 PM
i don't talk about how great they are I don't understand where you get this perception, im in here posting how stupid JP is ill stop posting in here after the deadline

he definitely has his shortcomings but he's being smart on this one... he'll be laughed out of town if he does pull the trigger and there's not much coming back... and he knows that this city is also content to keep roy and play it out and go from there... people like you were probably over in the twins forum a couple years back pressuring the twins fans about santana.... and look at their returns so for.... weak..

also.. our president has said that for next year in particular.. there's possibly 120mil there for payroll... we'll see...

nstojic
07-29-2009, 10:16 PM
no im basing of things off history. What makes you think you should get so much more for a 32 year old halladay than a 28 year old Santana?

because roy is arguably better and the twins got raped in that deal.. so you can't look at their returns and put it side by side with what's being offered for roy...


The Johan Santana trade (February 2008)
The deal: Minnesota GM Bill Smith trades Santana to the Mets for outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra.

The backdrop: It's clear the Twins can't afford Santana once he files for free agency, so Smith has three options: (1) trade Santana now, (2) move him at the July deadline or (3) keep him, make a run at the AL Central title and then collect the draft picks.

Boston reportedly makes Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester and Justin Masterson available in various packages, while the Yankees apparently are willing to deal pitcher Phil Hughes. The Twins wait so long that the market dries up, and the deal finally goes down on Groundhog Day. Shortly thereafter, Santana signs a $137.5 million extension with New York.

The initial reaction: "In poker terms, Smith slow-played a big hand and ended up dragging in less than the maximum pot," writes Aaron Gleeman on his Minnesota Twins blog.

Minnesota's grade: D. Yes, we know Smith's leverage decreased as the winter progressed, but in hindsight, the return sure looks light. If Gomez ever figures out the strike zone or Guerra amounts to anything, the deal still has some upside from Minnesota's end. But don't hold your breath.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&page=starting9/090722

the santana package:

gomez - http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=28762
mulvey- http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=453381
humber - http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=458950
guerra- http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=500610


boy, what a missed opportunity.. i'd hate to be those guys(twins)...

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 10:20 PM
im not talking about coming back but he doesnt seem to understand prospects from lower levels you get more up, good prospects near mlb ready not as much.

So in my mind a deal of Buchholz, Anderson/Reddick, stolmy Pimental, and jones and Bates is a fair deal

2 potential stars, a pitcher with a little more risk but a lot of potential and has done good, and a 2 possible solid contributers to the team.

Why do you think that isn't fair?

carson005
07-29-2009, 10:20 PM
i don't talk about how great they are I don't understand where you get this perception, im in here posting how stupid JP is ill stop posting in here after the deadline

I think this is one thing a Yankee fan and a Red Sox fan can agree on, JP is an idiot, and won't get what he wants, which will hurt him down the road

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 10:23 PM
because roy is arguably better and the twins got raped in that deal.. so you can't look at their returns and put it side by side with what's being offered for roy...



http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&page=starting9/090722

the santana package:

gomez - http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=28762
mulvey- http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=453381
humber - http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=458950
guerra- http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=500610


boy, what a missed opportunity.. i'd hate to be those guys(twins)...

why did they get raped got greedy.

Again they could of had Lester, Crisp, Masterson, and kalish, or Buchholz, Ellsbury, Masterson, and Kalish

but they wanted ellsbury and lester they got greedy, they got screwed

nstojic
07-29-2009, 10:24 PM
I think this is one thing a Yankee fan and a Red Sox fan can agree on, JP is an idiot, and won't get what he wants, which will hurt him down the road

down what road?!?!? this guy's gone as soon as the new president is named at the end of the year.. are you guys deaf... JP is not the sole guy making the decisions... not any more... Beeston(world series days) is running the real show now.. it's him, jp, the scouting dept.. assistant gm tony lacava(highly regarded).. it's not one guy.. jp lost those privileges when godfrey stepped down...

wamco
07-29-2009, 10:25 PM
Phils ended up well in this. they got a very good pitcher for 1/2 the value they'd give up to get halladay and got a player in Lee that costs half the payroll as Halladay while under their control this year and next. Can't blame Phils one bit for making this deal over a higher one for halladay.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 10:31 PM
why did they get raped got greedy.

Again they could of had Lester, Crisp, Masterson, and kalish, or Buchholz, Ellsbury, Masterson, and Kalish

but they wanted ellsbury and lester they got greedy, they got screwed

thanks for proving my point... look at those players now... masterson is average... kalish is just another guy at AA... crisp is garbage, i can't believe he got you guys a decent reliever... buchholz throws a no-no, yet, there isn't enough confidence in the kid to start him regularly.. you have to go out and get penny.. and his 5+ era...

so all in all, yeah.. minny asked for the right guys... lester and ellsbury.. did they get them? nope but we only know 10% of what happens behind those closed GM doors..

carson005
07-29-2009, 10:33 PM
down what road?!?!? this guy's gone as soon as the new president is named at the end of the year.. are you guys deaf... JP is not the sole guy making the decisions... not any more... Beeston(world series days) is running the real show now.. it's him, jp, the scouting dept.. assistant gm tony lacava(highly regarded).. it's not one guy.. jp lost those privileges when godfrey stepped down...

What I said applies to anyone in the front office for the Blue Jays. If JP isn't making the decisions and is going to be fired, then they should be rebuilding, and they should have brought in a new GM before the deadline, so he can make this his team going forward.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 10:35 PM
Phils ended up well in this. they got a very good pitcher for 1/2 the value they'd give up to get halladay and got a player in Lee that costs half the payroll as Halladay while under their control this year and next. Can't blame Phils one bit for making this deal over a higher one for halladay.

you're right.. sure they don't get doc but if hamels turns it on(and he's been much better over his last 3 starts), they've got a decent little 1-2 in front of blanton, haap, moyer... lee won't give you the consistency that doc will but with their offence... that's not life or death..

nstojic
07-29-2009, 10:36 PM
What I said applies to anyone in the front office for the Blue Jays. If JP isn't making the decisions and is going to be fired, then they should be rebuilding, and they should have brought in a new GM before the deadline, so he can make this his team going forward.

the president has said that the incoming president will presumably want his own 'guy' in there.. so therefore, jp is left hanging until then.. it's entirely possible that the new guy comes in and keeps jp there but it's unlikely..

T.O. Fan
07-29-2009, 10:41 PM
down what road?!?!? this guy's gone as soon as the new president is named at the end of the year.. are you guys deaf... JP is not the sole guy making the decisions... not any more... Beeston(world series days) is running the real show now.. it's him, jp, the scouting dept.. assistant gm tony lacava(highly regarded).. it's not one guy.. jp lost those privileges when godfrey stepped down...

Don't forget Alex Anthopolous....

RedDevilBigEvil
07-29-2009, 10:44 PM
What apparently steered the Phillies toward other options was not the Jays turning down our counter offer but rather the way Ricciardi went about turning it down, ie, he got sh*tty and cocky with Amaro b/c he thought he had the Phillies in a corner. Obviously we had 6 days to find common ground but since that verbal altercation there had been no contact between the two. Amaro called Ricciardi's bluff and screwed all the Jays fans. Why? Because unless the black plague sweeps through Boston, the Bronx, and Tampa, you will not be making the postseason next year, which is all you have Halladay left for. And without the Phillies to leverage a deal, the chances of the Jays getting the equivalent of what Phillies offered or better is not so good. And if he isn't moved by Friday, his trade value diminishes. And let me reiterate: what the Phils offered on Saturday was not their final offer. They just wanted to work toward a more amicable deal. Ricciardi blew that by being a blowhard.

As for the Lee trade, I know he isn't Halladay. But the Phils got to keep Happ so this deal from the 2009 team's perspective is Lee and Happ instead of Halladay. As far as those prospects go, Donald and Marson were blocked, Carrasco's value has been diminishing since Spring Training, and Knapp is an 18-year-old horse who has major upside. He's jewel of the deal. But I'm okay with losing all of them. We kept Drabek, Happ, Brown, and Taylor. It's a win for the Phils.

For Ricciardi, this week may eclipse the Wells, Ryan, and Burnett contracts as lowlights.

T.O. Fan
07-29-2009, 10:49 PM
What apparently steered the Phillies toward other options was not the Jays turning down our counter offer but rather the way Ricciardi went about turning it down, ie, he got sh*tty and cocky with Amaro b/c he thought he had the Phillies in a corner. Obviously we had 6 days to find common ground but since that verbal altercation there had been no contact between the two. Amaro called Ricciardi's bluff and screwed all the Jays fans. Why? Because unless the black plague sweeps through Boston, the Bronx, and Tampa, you will not be making the postseason next year, which is all you have Halladay left for. And without the Phillies to leverage a deal, the chances of the Jays getting the equivalent of what Phillies offered or better is not so good. And if he isn't moved by Friday, his trade value diminishes. And let me reiterate: what the Phils offered on Saturday was not their final offer. They just wanted to work toward a more amicable deal. Ricciardi blew that by being a blowhard.

As for the Lee trade, I know he isn't Halladay. But the Phils got to keep Happ so this deal from the 2009 team's perspective is Lee and Happ instead of Halladay. As far as those prospects go, Donald and Marson were blocked, Carrasco's value has been diminishing since Spring Training, and Knapp is an 18-year-old horse who has major upside. He's jewel of the deal. But I'm okay with losing all of them. We kept Drabek, Happ, Brown, and Taylor. It's a win for the Phils.

For Ricciardi, this week may eclipse the Wells, Ryan, and Burnett contracts as lowlights.

Do you have a link for that?

Gibbs
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
JP screwed the pootch on this one you should have forgot Drabek took Taylor Brown the two best hitter prospcects on philly with Happ and Carassco or Knapp and if you didnt like those two SP's you should have took the C Marson or SS prospect Donald that is why Torontp isnt competing there are over paid players on your team and you need to dump them all

so you mide as well just trade Doc who ill get more than two 1st rd picks

Take alot of younger kids and get more an revamp yur team for the future

dump Rolen Overbay and Rios off for prospects Wells I dont know what you can do I'd say NYY but I dont see them even taking him with Doc for free too much $$$ for wells without a doubt and its killing your team period

you could have saved Doc's $$ and btw there is no way you compete next year NY and Bosotn are much better and Tamp is decent so good luck JP (IDIOT) you had a shot to have maybe two OFers then you could have cashed in on Rios somewhere along with a SP or two from philly and with Rios traded you could have landed a few infs and Sp's same with Rolen and overbay one decent for lyle two for Rolen you have a half a shot at something there way to waste Toronto again YOU WON THE DEE DEE DEE AWARD

T.O. Fan
07-29-2009, 10:59 PM
JP screwed the pootch on this one you should have forgot Drabek took Taylor Brown the two best hitter prospcects on philly with Happ and Carassco or Knapp and if you didnt like those two SP's you should have took the C Marson or SS prospect Donald that is why Torontp isnt competing there are over paid players on your team and you need to dump them all

so you mide as well just trade Doc who ill get more than two 1st rd picks

Take alot of younger kids and get more an revamp yur team for the future

dump Rolen Overbay and Rios off for prospects Wells I dont know what you can do I'd say NYY but I dont see them even taking him with Doc for free too much $$$ for wells without a doubt and its killing your team period

you could have saved Doc's $$ and btw there is no way you compete next year NY and Bosotn are much better and Tamp is decent so good luck JP (IDIOT) you had a shot to have maybe two OFers then you could have cashed in on Rios somewhere along with a SP or two from philly and with Rios traded you could have landed a few infs and Sp's same with Rolen and overbay one decent for lyle two for Rolen you have a half a shot at something there way to waste Toronto again YOU WON THE DEE DEE DEE AWARD

Wow...

Gibbs
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
Best chance look to the NYY's for Miranda and dump overbay get melky or Jackson Betances Kennedy McCalister three half way decent looking Sp's instead of just one in Hughes or Joba there is no way that makes you any better than now anyway you need numbers take maybe a C or 3 B prospect and turn your franchise around one start isnt going to help you look at Doc and 20 games there means nothing you need a full rotation of the future

nstojic
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
Do you have a link for that?

:eyebrow:yeah..... 10 posts... i'm going to need to see a link on that...

wowzman
07-29-2009, 11:02 PM
What apparently steered the Phillies toward other options was not the Jays turning down our counter offer but rather the way Ricciardi went about turning it down, ie, he got sh*tty and cocky with Amaro b/c he thought he had the Phillies in a corner. Obviously we had 6 days to find common ground but since that verbal altercation there had been no contact between the two. Amaro called Ricciardi's bluff and screwed all the Jays fans. Why? Because unless the black plague sweeps through Boston, the Bronx, and Tampa, you will not be making the postseason next year, which is all you have Halladay left for. And without the Phillies to leverage a deal, the chances of the Jays getting the equivalent of what Phillies offered or better is not so good. And if he isn't moved by Friday, his trade value diminishes. And let me reiterate: what the Phils offered on Saturday was not their final offer. They just wanted to work toward a more amicable deal. Ricciardi blew that by being a blowhard.


Do you have a link for that?

He was probably in the room with Amaro and J.P. :D

nstojic
07-29-2009, 11:02 PM
JP screwed the pootch on this one you should have forgot Drabek took Taylor Brown the two best hitter prospcects on philly with Happ and Carassco or Knapp and if you didnt like those two SP's you should have took the C Marson or SS prospect Donald that is why Torontp isnt competing there are over paid players on your team and you need to dump them all

so you mide as well just trade Doc who ill get more than two 1st rd picks

Take alot of younger kids and get more an revamp yur team for the future

dump Rolen Overbay and Rios off for prospects Wells I dont know what you can do I'd say NYY but I dont see them even taking him with Doc for free too much $$$ for wells without a doubt and its killing your team period

you could have saved Doc's $$ and btw there is no way you compete next year NY and Bosotn are much better and Tamp is decent so good luck JP (IDIOT) you had a shot to have maybe two OFers then you could have cashed in on Rios somewhere along with a SP or two from philly and with Rios traded you could have landed a few infs and Sp's same with Rolen and overbay one decent for lyle two for Rolen you have a half a shot at something there way to waste Toronto again YOU WON THE DEE DEE DEE AWARD

English, señor

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 11:11 PM
thanks for proving my point... look at those players now... masterson is average... kalish is just another guy at AA... crisp is garbage, i can't believe he got you guys a decent reliever... buchholz throws a no-no, yet, there isn't enough confidence in the kid to start him regularly.. you have to go out and get penny.. and his 5+ era...

so all in all, yeah.. minny asked for the right guys... lester and ellsbury.. did they get them? nope but we only know 10% of what happens behind those closed GM doors..

im sorry masterson isnt a star when he is 24. When roy halladay was 23 he had a terrible season it wasnt until he was 24 where he got really good.

Buchholz is really good, know what your talking about before saying he isn't very good.

Kalish is a very good prospect in AA again know what your talking about.

Yeah the twins turned down lester in a deal how did that work out for them. I hardly proved your point at all

Gibbs
07-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Oh one more thing ROTFL about this even more for those who think Bucholz is so great Yes he is a very good SP but not = to Joba or Hughes but above kennedy HOWEVER if you look at what Buch has done overall not that great as for kennedy not good either but kennedy really is NYY top prospect other than Montero or A Jackson

so to get kennedy Betances who is only 20 in doub A and McCalister who should be in Trip A right now with his number(bad things about NY is the baby too much and never get seen they get traded) that would be a great SP trade and add Miranda whos cheap to replace overbay and add say an Austin Jackson or Melky and you have made an impact trade BTW THE LARS ANDERSON LOVERS take a look a Miranda stats in trip A andAnderson in Double A I have seen the socks farm I live in Greenville SC and Anderson is really not all that---I also moved from NJ and saw alot of the NYY kids and I hav to say the NYYs prospects other tahn a few like Bowden or Buch are better

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 11:17 PM
Buchholz was the best pitcher in the minors by far this season in AAA where he absolutely dominated.

93-95 mph fastball with an 80mph change and a really good curve, and doing decently in his 3 starts.

obviously not better than joba right now, but him and hughes are on the same level for sure.

nstojic
07-29-2009, 11:19 PM
im sorry masterson isnt a star when he is 24. When roy halladay was 23 he had a terrible season it wasnt until he was 24 where he got really good.

Buchholz is really good, know what your talking about before saying he isn't very good.

Kalish is a very good prospect in AA again know what your talking about.

Yeah the twins turned down lester in a deal how did that work out for them. I hardly proved your point at all

-how the hell are you going to compare masterson to halladay?

-where is buchholz 'really good'? AAA? sure as hell isn't the MLB level.. 21 starts = 1.61 WHIP, 5.29 ERA... 'really good'... again, why get penny @ 5mil?

-Kalish is still young but AA is not treating him too fondly.. turning into just another guy.. last year wasn't that great either.. according to you, he should be lighting it up...

-the twins turned down lester in a deal because there was other pieces in there that they didn't want.. and lester has exactly 1.5 years of good baseball at the major league level.. don't misunderstand.. he's good.. but the masterson argument works reverse for him as well.. tomorrow he tears a rotator cuff, has surgery, never comes back the same.. then what... but yeah, he's good.. santana was worth him and ellsbury...

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 11:19 PM
gibbs shut up the redsox have much better prospects than the yankees

leafsjays1
07-29-2009, 11:19 PM
That kid is an idiot, who is he a fan of anyway

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 11:25 PM
-how the hell are you going to compare masterson to halladay?

-where is buchholz 'really good'? AAA? sure as hell isn't the MLB level.. 21 starts = 1.61 WHIP, 5.29 ERA... 'really good'... again, why get penny @ 5mil?

-Kalish is still young but AA is not treating him too fondly.. turning into just another guy.. last year wasn't that great either.. according to you, he should be lighting it up...

-the twins turned down lester in a deal because there was other pieces in there that they didn't want.. and lester has exactly 1.5 years of good baseball at the major league level.. don't misunderstand.. he's good.. but the masterson argument works reverse for him as well.. tomorrow he tears a rotator cuff, has surgery, never comes back the same.. then what... but yeah, he's good.. santana was worth him and ellsbury...

you make no sense, i was making a point that pitchers don't just dominate the minors then come right out of the gate dominating the mlb. I was using halladay as an example of this which you obviously failed to realize.

Kalish, again one of the youngest players in AA, and do you not understand that all players have initial struggles when the move up levels. Especially from A to AA

then again from AA/AAA to the MLB

obviously Santana wasn't worth lester and ellsbury because they got considerably less than that from the mets.

as for lester getting injured ...ok? that could happen to halladay what is your point

nstojic
07-29-2009, 11:39 PM
you make no sense, i was making a point that pitchers don't just dominate the minors then come right out of the gate dominating the mlb. I was using halladay as an example of this which you obviously failed to realize.

Kalish, again one of the youngest players in AA, and do you not understand that all players have initial struggles when the move up levels. Especially from A to AA

then again from AA/AAA to the MLB

obviously Santana wasn't worth lester and ellsbury because they got considerably less than that from the mets.

as for lester getting injured ...ok? that could happen to halladay what is your point

sure, kalish is struggling.. but it seems that when he learns a level, he's nothing special... like you'll have me believe... therefore, he's not worthy of being a piece in the deal for my best pitcher... my point in all this is you're making your prospects out to be something special when, really, one or two of them may be something...

and in all of this, what is so wrong with us wanting a certain package for our pitcher(because we feel he's worth it) and if we don't get it, we keep him and continue trying to build around him next season, when some arms come back and hopefully the offence is better.. or maybe we can add to it.. ? why do we have to trade him because you're the redsox and you say your package is good enough?

papipapsmanny
07-29-2009, 11:45 PM
again your only fair deal is raping a team the whole league thinks that, but i guess the whole league like the rays, sox, yanks, rangers, phillies, dodgers, and angels are stupid in thinking the asking price is too high.

Does that not tell you something? all those teams deemed to price to be too high

if You keep him your only hurting your future, sorry i just don't see the jays in the playoffs next season.

Gibbs
07-29-2009, 11:47 PM
ahh Hughes is possibly better than Chamberlain its truly neck and neck Hughes does have to prove himself as a SP 1st though Bucholz is not as good as Hughes but better than Kennedy and btw Kennedy was owning Trip A also

Bluerapoileagle
07-29-2009, 11:48 PM
The thing is is that the Jays don't want to trade Halladay within the division, that's why their asking price from the Red Sox is so high. They'd really have to wow them if they want Halladay, and I don't think they're willing to do that.

Gibbs
07-29-2009, 11:50 PM
Chamberlain is going nowhere just like Lester isnt they are no longer prospects they are Major leaguers Hughes and Bucholz are the ones they may call prospects

Gibbs
07-29-2009, 11:52 PM
The thing is is that the Jays don't want to trade Halladay within the division, that's why their asking price from the Red Sox is so high. They'd really have to wow them if they want Halladay, and I don't think they're willing to do that.
__________________
and this is why they screwed up royally with not going with the phillies that was the best match terrible thing for Toronto in my opinoin and guess what when Doc hits FA he will be in the divison anyway via Bos or NY :D

Twitchy
07-30-2009, 12:05 AM
Buchholz was the best pitcher in the minors by far this season in AAA where he absolutely dominated.

93-95 mph fastball with an 80mph change and a really good curve, and doing decently in his 3 starts.

obviously not better than joba right now, but him and hughes are on the same level for sure.

Buchholz was not the best pitcher in the minors this year. It took me 5 seconds to find out Tillman was better. And that was just off the top of my head. He's a good pitcher but let's not go overboard here.


again your only fair deal is raping a team the whole league thinks that, but i guess the whole league like the rays, sox, yanks, rangers, phillies, dodgers, and angels are stupid in thinking the asking price is too high.

Does that not tell you something? all those teams deemed to price to be too high

if You keep him your only hurting your future, sorry i just don't see the jays in the playoffs next season.

Those teams think the asking price is high, but from the reports I've heard they haven't offered that much to begin with. For example, the reported Phils/Halladay offer from the Phillies side was worse than the actual Lee/Phils deal (Happ, Carrasco, Marson Donald VS Knapp, Carrasco, Donald, Marson). In that case you can't blame the Jays for passing because they clearly were getting a raw deal.

2009mvp
07-30-2009, 12:58 AM
Not to mention Hanson, who was video-game good in AAA this year, albeit in probably 30 innings less than Buchholtz/Tillman because of the early callup.

papipapsmanny
07-30-2009, 01:10 AM
Buchholz was not the best pitcher in the minors this year. It took me 5 seconds to find out Tillman was better. And that was just off the top of my head. He's a good pitcher but let's not go overboard here.



Those teams think the asking price is high, but from the reports I've heard they haven't offered that much to begin with. For example, the reported Phils/Halladay offer from the Phillies side was worse than the actual Lee/Phils deal (Happ, Carrasco, Marson Donald VS Knapp, Carrasco, Donald, Marson). In that case you can't blame the Jays for passing because they clearly were getting a raw deal.

advances statistics would say otherwise
http://statcorner.com/leader.php?type=2&year=2009&leag=INT&limit=100

Twitchy
07-30-2009, 08:02 AM
advances statistics would say otherwise
http://statcorner.com/leader.php?type=2&year=2009&leag=INT&limit=100

One advanced statistic agrees with you. Several others don't. Tillman's FIP was 2.76 while Buchholz was 3.23. Tillman had better K & BB rates, as well as a better HR rate. I don't agree that Buchholz pitched better at all. I can't find minor league ground ball rates but based on the HR rates I'd have to assume Tillman's is better.

The only way Buchholz could have a better tra+ is if the LD or GB #'s were better. Still, Tillman was doing the 3 most important things better than Buchholz - striking out guys, walking less, and keeping the ball on the ground (and avoiding HR's).

And weren't you the guy who kept complaining about tra+? Now all of a sudden you're bringing it up? I know you bugged Seemhead non stop because you kept saying it wasn't accurate. I wonder why that changed now.

speakerboxx
07-30-2009, 08:30 AM
It was a great deal for the phillies...They got the best of both worlds. From a pure pitching standpoint, doc is a better but from a value standpoint this trade is much better for the phills. Sure they gave up 4 prospects but they didn't give up their top prospects plus and lee cost $$$$$ a lot less but still gives you a top of the rotation guy. So they didn't sell the farm which would have been required in the Halladay deal but still made out with one of the best pitchers in baseball. Not to mention, I'll take a guy who's era is just a tad over 3. I can care less about the win/loss record because that's an indication of overall team play not neccessarily the pitcher. I'll say this as well I think people underestimated the phillies pitching before the deal went down. They look at the team ERA and say the pitching is bad but honestly if not for the bad start, their ERA would actually be more in the middle of the pact and not at the bottom. Now with lee their pitching stacks up against almost anyone in the league. Plus they have arguably the best lineup in the leauge and the best defense in the league. Overall they've become somewhat of the complete team. Maybe the Yankees are better but I don't know if I'd put anyone else above them.

maxpower
07-30-2009, 10:31 AM
So in the end Amaro offered

Carrasco, Marson, Donald, Knapp and Happ and he said no.

This was the final offer after JP messed it all up. Originally you guys could've had Michael Taylor in that offer too. So that would've given you a stud, long term propect in Knapp, who is being compared to Halladay, plus Carrasco, Donald, Taylor and Happ, all of which will probably be in the Majors by next season for Cleveland. That's pretty good "value".

blujaysrock
07-30-2009, 10:37 AM
This was the final offer after JP messed it all up. Originally you guys could've had Michael Taylor in that offer too. So that would've given you a stud, long term propect in Knapp, who is being compared to Halladay, plus Carrasco, Donald, Taylor and Happ, all of which will probably be in the Majors by next season for Cleveland. That's pretty good "value".

May I ask where you got that from?

papipapsmanny
07-30-2009, 11:25 AM
One advanced statistic agrees with you. Several others don't. Tillman's FIP was 2.76 while Buchholz was 3.23. Tillman had better K & BB rates, as well as a better HR rate. I don't agree that Buchholz pitched better at all. I can't find minor league ground ball rates but based on the HR rates I'd have to assume Tillman's is better.

The only way Buchholz could have a better tra+ is if the LD or GB #'s were better. Still, Tillman was doing the 3 most important things better than Buchholz - striking out guys, walking less, and keeping the ball on the ground (and avoiding HR's).

And weren't you the guy who kept complaining about tra+? Now all of a sudden you're bringing it up? I know you bugged Seemhead non stop because you kept saying it wasn't accurate. I wonder why that changed now.

i didnt say i agreed with it I like FIP better but i cant find it. I just used this because some guys will take tRA to the grave

maxpower
07-30-2009, 11:26 AM
May I ask where you got that from?

Still looking. It was a scout's quote in one of the 6 million articles about the Lee trade. Found this though, about some of the players in our system you guys could've had.

Don't believe the hype
The notion that the Jays cannot justify trading Halladay to the Phillies without acquiring Brown or the team's other top prospect, Class AA right-hander Kyle Drabek, is absurd.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

One scout who covers the Phillies says he likes Class A right-hander Jason Knapp, who is currently on the disabled list, even better than Drabek.

The same scout says he would be comfortable taking Class A outfielder Anthony Gose or Class AAA outfielder Michael Taylor if he could not acquire Brown.

Another scout says, "Michael Taylor is a beast. 6-foot-6, 250 pounds of athleticism and strength. Smart. Competitive. Throwback. Teammates call him 'The Renaissance Man.'"

Here's that link too, in case you don't believe me.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9833180/Phillies-have-other-options-beside-Halladay

maxpower
07-30-2009, 11:33 AM
May I ask where you got that from?

Here you go my friend.

One scout we surveyed Wednesday compared Knapp to a young Jonathan Papelbon. Another said: "If his medicals check out, they may have gotten a young Roy Halladay."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=4364642

Also, compared to Josh Johnson.

The Jays will take Happ, but the Phillies will have to include a young pitcher at least as talented as Chris Tillman, the pitcher Baltimore got from Seattle in the Erik Bedard trade. (Remember, the Orioles also obtained center fielder Adam Jones and closer George Sherrill in that deal.) That means either Drabek or Jason Knapp would have to be in the deal. "He might turn out to be the best of all of them," the scout said of Knapp. "He's a beast. A lot of people think he could be another Josh Johnson."

http://m.si.com/news/sp/wr_mlb_sports/detail/1765830;jsessionid=6226F02192E0B0AE519AACD327BE2E6 4.cnnsilive9i

Point is, some of the deals you were offered, were better than you guys and JP thought. You guys just don't know enough about our system, which is understandable, I don't know much about any other team's systems either.

The reason we didn't want to trade Drabek, wasn't so much about him being better, it was because the Phillies don't offer contracts to pitchers longer than 3 years, so Halladay was going to walk when he was a free agent, probably, and Drabek will be ready just in time, to replace Halladay. Knapp won't be. This is just part of the plan to stay competitive longer than 2 years.

Wanting to keep Brown was about his skills vs. Taylor though. Actually, Taylor makes more sense for us to keep, because Werth is a free agent after 2010, and Ibanez after 2011, and he's old too. I still think, had JP handled things better, we would've put Brown back in the deal though, but I've got no proof of that.

Bluerapoileagle
07-30-2009, 02:26 PM
One scout we surveyed Wednesday compared Knapp to a young Jonathan Papelbon. Another said: "If his medicals check out, they may have gotten a young Roy Halladay."

Yeah and Ryan Leaf was supposed to be a great quarterback lol.:)

madmike77
07-30-2009, 03:26 PM
Homer Bailey and Matt Anderson were beasts too... once upon a time. No one know how a 19-year-old pitcher is going to turn out. Even Cleveland fans think they got robbed in the Lee deal.

Given what the Phillies offered, the Jays would be just as well off keeping Halladay and getting their 2 comp picks when he leaves after 2010.

StealingSigns
07-30-2009, 04:14 PM
You might have to change your forum name to Papipapsmannyroidy after what is being reported out of New York today.

Sure taints that World Series win, don't it?

Hey Maxpower, how does your link prove what the final offer was from Philadelphia?

wamco
07-30-2009, 04:19 PM
2 mlb draft picks for roy halladay would make me vomit on my keyboard.

Big Hurt
07-31-2009, 09:47 AM
You might have to change your forum name to Papipapsmannyroidy after what is being reported out of New York today.

Sure taints that World Series win, don't it?

Hey Maxpower, how does your link prove what the final offer was from Philadelphia?

And with Sierra, Clements, A-Rod, Giambi, Pettite, Sheffield nailed it could have been the Jays with the Series win!!!

2009mvp
07-31-2009, 12:00 PM
i didnt say i agreed with it I like FIP better but i cant find it. I just used this because some guys will take tRA to the grave

Didn't find it, or didn't like the fact that Buchholtz' 3.23 FIP at AAA doesn't exactly support your argument against Tillman's 2.76 or Hanson's 2.42?

maxpower
07-31-2009, 01:07 PM
You might have to change your forum name to Papipapsmannyroidy after what is being reported out of New York today.

Sure taints that World Series win, don't it?

Hey Maxpower, how does your link prove what the final offer was from Philadelphia?

My link was supposed to prove that Knapp has been compared to Halladay by some scouts, not the final offer.

Supposedly, and this was on the radio here, so no link. Take it for what it's worth, but supposedly our GM called JP after an agreement was made with Cleveland, told him he had a deal with Cleveland, named the guys involved, and said we'll give you the same and throw in Happ, he said no.

Before that, according the MLBTR, our counter offer to your original Drabek, Happ, and Brown offer, was Carrasco, Donald, Happ, and Taylor. At the time, I thought our GM would end up giving you Brown instead of Taylor, just to make JP feel like he "bargained" something in that he wanted, but talks never seemed to go much further after that.