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Mile High Champ
07-28-2009, 09:49 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember but I conducted a poll at the start of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round...Enjoy.

Had to start a new poll today because I left out one guy last night and included Bargnani instead, Was very tired last night. Plus there is no reason to send angry PM's to complaining about how I have bias towards not adding Biedrins, hmmm I wonder what that would be....

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

C Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

1) Dwight Howard
2) Yao Ming
3) Al Jefferson
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Andrea Bargnani
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

Last Years C Rankings:

1) Dwight Howard
2) Yao Ming
3) Al Jefferson
4) Andrew Bynum
5) Chris Kaman
6) Tyson Chandler
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Marcus Camby
9) Jermaine O'neal
10) Andrew Bogut

FOBolous
07-28-2009, 09:54 AM
i think everyone should boycott the poll to protest the inclusion of Bargnani at #5

Mile High Champ
07-28-2009, 09:58 AM
i think everyone should boycott the poll to protest the inclusion of Bargnani at #5

Very mature, if you don't want to participate in the poll and thread, you can leave.. no big deal..

blujaysrock
07-28-2009, 10:00 AM
Biedrins does it for me.

Kidddd
07-28-2009, 10:02 AM
i think everyone should boycott the poll to protest the inclusion of Bargnani at #5You should be banned for this post.

FOBolous
07-28-2009, 10:09 AM
You should be banned for this post.

just trying to express my anger at the poll in a constructive way :)

kbaxter34
07-28-2009, 10:11 AM
You should be banned for this post.

Why should he. The fact that Raps08-09 Champ felt the need to start a Vote for Bargs thread in the Raptors forum completely destroys all credibility of this poll


But moving on. I went with Okafor here. He is one of the most consistent centers in the league. You can always depend on him for at least 10 and 10 with a few blocks, plus he plays D. I have no idea what Charlotte was thinking trading him for Chandler

DeeJay
07-28-2009, 10:25 AM
i think everyone should boycott the poll to protest the inclusion of Bargnani at #5

I agree.

VIP1349
07-28-2009, 10:27 AM
It's really close but I went ahead with a homer pick and went with Nene as I prefer him to Okafor.

mitch91
07-28-2009, 10:33 AM
went with biedrins

thanks for starting a new poll it was only fair and those who sent you angry pms are, simply put, idiots!

AntiG
07-28-2009, 10:37 AM
It's really close but I went ahead with a homer pick and went with Nene as I prefer him to Okafor.

Not really much of a homer pick IMO. Nene is the 4th best center in the NBA.

I'm just waiting for all the Laker homers to flood in a vote Bynum despite his mediocrity.

Unruly Fan
07-28-2009, 10:41 AM
Why should he. The fact that Raps08-09 Champ felt the need to start a Vote for Bargs thread in the Raptors forum completely destroys all credibility of this poll


But moving on. I went with Okafor here. He is one of the most consistent centers in the league. You can always depend on him for at least 10 and 10 with a few blocks, plus he plays D. I have no idea what Charlotte was thinking trading him for ChandlerSo your saying the entire value of this poll is affected by on one guy? C'mon, everyone has/should have their own mind.

b_russ
07-28-2009, 10:49 AM
Not really much of a homer pick IMO. Nene is the 4th best center in the NBA.

I'm just waiting for all the Laker homers to flood in a vote Bynum despite his mediocrity.

Haha. It looks like they got the picture after the last thread, only two votes so far for Bynum. They usually drive me nuts but at least this time they didn't stoop to some of the Raptor fans' level. Creating a thread to vote for for their player while it clearly states not to be a homer while voting? :pity:

This vote was tough. Chris Kaman, Emeka Okafor, and Andris Biedrins? And then you can't overlook guys like Mehmet Okur, Brook Lopez, and Al Horford. I went with Okafor though.

ManRam
07-28-2009, 10:57 AM
It was between Nene and Okafor for me. Nene is the best offensive center left...by a mile and a half. No one runs the court like him. His offensive touch is amazing. Not as great of a rebounder or defender though. So I went with Okafor.

cowboyz180
07-28-2009, 11:03 AM
nene

kbaxter34
07-28-2009, 11:12 AM
Whats done is done, not a big deal. Its not that serious. Lets move on to the matter at hand.

ink
07-28-2009, 11:13 AM
Thank you. Let's get this thread and poll back on topic. :clap:

AntiG
07-28-2009, 11:19 AM
Haha. It looks like they got the picture after the last thread, only two votes so far for Bynum. They usually drive me nuts but at least this time they didn't stoop to some of the Raptor fans' level. Creating a thread to vote for for their player while it clearly states not to be a homer while voting? :pity:

They'll be here soon. They are just waking up in California.

Kakaroach
07-28-2009, 11:25 AM
Andris Biedrins. He really should be #5 but whatever.

mikantsass
07-28-2009, 11:38 AM
How the hell is Bargs #5? Are there really that many Toronto fans on this site??

FaceDown91
07-28-2009, 11:52 AM
not voting since bargs at 5 is the most laughable thing i have ever seen.

Macedonian
07-28-2009, 11:52 AM
Andris Biedrins

FOBolous
07-28-2009, 11:55 AM
How the hell is Bargs #5? Are there really that many Toronto fans on this site??

apparently there is

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 11:58 AM
Y is bynum even in discussion for top 5

jimbobjarree
07-28-2009, 12:00 PM
my post wasnt off topic ink :pity:

Biedrins/Meka for this one

but still :pity:

Radio Rakeem
07-28-2009, 12:06 PM
Personally, i voted for Nene for the 5th spot but I'm not suprised that Bargs is there. For being a 7 footer that could take his man of the dribble, shoot the three with high accuracy, and is a decent defender all at the age of 23, his versatility alone pushes him atop the top centres in the game.

Hopefully Nene gets the 6th spot

ink
07-28-2009, 12:06 PM
my post wasnt off topic ink :pity:

Biedrins/Meka for this one

but still :pity:


Thank you. Let's get this thread and poll back on topic. :clap:

We need to move on. If people want to post in the thread, please discuss the centers in the thread. We can't undo what is done and we don't need the thread filled with comments about the process. We've answered PMs about the subject, people have made their thoughts known about this, but in the end, if people want to vote, let's talk about the players up for a vote.

But we really need to move on, and stay on topic. Mile High Champ has spelled out the topic clearly in the first post.

Thanks.

tland22
07-28-2009, 12:35 PM
ANDREA BARGNANI at #5 ?????????????????/ WHAT THE HECKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKK?

15 points 5 rebs per game....... Bargnani is weak and could careless about getting rebounds or playind Defense..... all these Raptor Homers. They have the fourth largest fan-base on this site.... OF COURSE Andrea Bargnani gets the nod..... Better than Okafor and Chandler? Hell No. I would take 10-15 other centers over this guy. That is a joke.

But Id take either Okur, Okafor, Chandler, or Nene because they are clearly the best centers left.

Okafor should be top 5 IMHO.... for reasons already stated here...plays D, blocks shots, hits the boards pretty hard, he hustles, he has touch and some solid post moves. He is extremely consistent, first and foremost

VIP1349
07-28-2009, 12:39 PM
I love how 2 brave soul's voted Joakim Noah, lol.

I really think Nene should have been 5 as I don't see how Bargs is a Center. But it's really close between Biedrens, Okafor, and Nene. But I guess it came at a time when Okafor just got traded, so he'll get the majority I suppose.

B.JenningsMVP
07-28-2009, 12:54 PM
Andris Biedrins!

Niro
07-28-2009, 01:17 PM
yes sir andris biedrins

dre1990
07-28-2009, 01:25 PM
Andris Biedrins

masalex1205
07-28-2009, 01:27 PM
Bargs at 5? Can someone do the puking smiley face for me? not sure how to do it?

JIDsanity
07-28-2009, 01:30 PM
i think everyone should boycott the poll to protest the inclusion of Bargnani at #5

+1. stop the madness

ManRam
07-28-2009, 01:42 PM
i think everyone should boycott the poll to protest the inclusion of Bargnani at #5

Is this 1950? Are you Rosa Parks?? Boycott?????? Seriously. It's an online poll. What does it matter? It doesn't. Who cares if the majority of people would rather have Bargs at center? They are entitled to their opinion. This is crazy. Get over it people. It's an NBA forum, that no one of significance will ever read. No one cares but the 100 people who will vote in this. Get over it.

In related news...It's now 10:42 in LA, and Bynum is still in third.

Unruly Fan
07-28-2009, 01:51 PM
Is this 1950? Are you Rosa Parks?? Boycott?????? Seriously. It's an online poll. What does it matter? It doesn't. Who cares if the majority of people would rather have Bargs at center? They are entitled to their opinion. This is crazy. Get over it people. It's an NBA forum, that no one of significance will ever read. No one cares but the 100 people who will vote in this. Get over it.
:clap:


Okafor vs. Beidrins

It's gonna be a close one!

ChaseMe
07-28-2009, 01:53 PM
There is no such thing as a credibility for a poll such as this when it comes to opinion, after the really good centers are chosen it comes down to fans who think their center is better then most people give them credit. People should stop being ******* and just vote for whomever without having to get critiqued on- that's the immaturity about it.

EastCoastBaller
07-28-2009, 01:56 PM
Emeka Okafor!!!

JLynn943
07-28-2009, 02:11 PM
I voted Biedrins, but I'm good with either him or Okafor at this spot. My concern is over Bynum. There's no way he deserves to be that close to them. Homers...:pity:

IversonIsKrazy
07-28-2009, 03:01 PM
Gotta go with Big Oak. I still cant understand y Bobcats pursuid the trade but w/e, he is a consistent double-double machine who'll play great solid interior D while getting over 2Bpg.

He has great inside post game, and solid D. He is the 6th best Center in the league, better than Biedrins, Kaman, and Bynum.

D-Will4Prez
07-28-2009, 03:03 PM
?? no love for Okur? dude averaged 17 ppg last year which is more than Bargnani and all the other Cs still available...

FOBolous
07-28-2009, 03:30 PM
i think the 5 - 10 spot should be between (in no particular order)...

Chris Kaman (capable of averaging 16/13/3)

Okur (highest scoring center left..capable of spreading the floor and creating mismatches in addition to banging down in the post)

Emeka Okafor (consistent...13/10/2)

Andris Biedrin (12/11/2)

Nene (solid playoff performance)

Marcus Camby (DPOY...(10/11/2)

honorable mentions - Al Horford (11/9), Brook Lopez (13/8/2), Andrew Bogut (12/10), Kendrick Perkins (good defensive player...9/8/2)....

I'm really hesistent to put Bargnani in the list simply because he doesn't have any post game...both offensively and defensively. Who ever heard of a center with no post game? He's pretty much a SF/SG masqurating as a center because he's 7 ft tall.




but yea...I'm not voting to protest Bargnani's inclusion at the #5 spot.

J_M_B
07-28-2009, 03:31 PM
It's between Okafor and Nene for me. I went with Nene though

Jays Claw
07-28-2009, 03:39 PM
Emeka Okafor.

magikmc
07-28-2009, 03:47 PM
I think Okur does deserve more love here... but i have to go with Okafor.

Vidball
07-28-2009, 04:18 PM
I'm guessing 90% of posters have never seen Okafur play and are voting based on stats alone. He's the third best player on a non-playoff team that has regressed since his rookie season and has as much trouble defending length as anyone in the game.

dtmagnet
07-28-2009, 04:20 PM
I like Biedrins here.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 04:20 PM
Top 3 defensive C in the League.
#5 in PER for Centers.
Top 5 for Per-36 stats for Centers.

Andrew Bynum deserves to go in this slot (actually higher).

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 04:23 PM
I'm guessing 90% of posters have never seen Okafur play and are voting based on stats alone. He's the third best player on a non-playoff team that has regressed since his rookie season and has as much trouble defending length as anyone in the game.

Bynum ripped Okafor apart in their matchup against each other.

Bynum had 24 points, 14 rebounds, and 6 blocks while shooting 10 for 14 against Okafor. Okafor had 18, 11, and 1 while shooting 6 for 12.

Again, where is the argument for Okafor? He has a worse PER. He has a worse Per-36 minute stats. He is a much worse defender.

Again, what argument can there be made for Okafor?

b_rad23
07-28-2009, 04:23 PM
Biedrins then Camby then maybe Bynum IMO...

theuuord
07-28-2009, 04:24 PM
Bynum ripped Okafor apart in their matchup against each other.

Bynum had 24 points, 14 rebounds, and 6 blocks while shooting 10 for 14 against Okafor. Okafor had 18, 11, and 1 while shooting 6 for 12.

Again, where is the argument for Okafor? He has a worse PER. He has a worse Per-36 minute stats. He is a much worse defender.

Again, what argument can there be made for Okafor?

I wouldn't make it personally, but durability is up there.

ink
07-28-2009, 04:29 PM
I wouldn't make it personally, but durability is up there.

Especially at that position where players give and take a pounding day in day out.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 04:32 PM
I wouldn't make it personally, but durability is up there.

Two words: Freak accidents. Freak accidents should not hinder Bynum's ranking here. Kobe drove down the lane, fell, and landed on Bynum knee at the worst angle problem. It isn't injury prone. It is bad luck. It was a freak accident. When we talk about injury prone, we are talking about guys like T-Mac or G-Hill who just cannot handle the pressure of the long 82 game season. Bynum's two injuries have both been of the "freak accident" sorts (landed on LO's foot and twisted knee and Kobe's landed on him).

Chronz
07-28-2009, 04:38 PM
I'm guessing 90% of posters have never seen Okafur play and are voting based on stats alone. He's the third best player on a non-playoff team that has regressed since his rookie season and has as much trouble defending length as anyone in the game.

Yeah Im beginning to think maybe Ive overrated him defensively, but he has not regressed.

B.JenningsMVP
07-28-2009, 04:46 PM
Beaaaaaaaans!!

LA_cabals
07-28-2009, 05:05 PM
Bynum ripped Okafor apart in their matchup against each other.

Bynum had 24 points, 14 rebounds, and 6 blocks while shooting 10 for 14 against Okafor. Okafor had 18, 11, and 1 while shooting 6 for 12.

Again, where is the argument for Okafor? He has a worse PER. He has a worse Per-36 minute stats. He is a much worse defender.

Again, what argument can there be made for Okafor?


The best argument that you will NOT hear is that Okafor isn't a Laker....


Armin12NBA--> don't waste your time arguing with actual logic and reason on a Popularity poll. If I wanted to I can come up with compelling reasons for why I could vote for Dampier as a top 10 center. Have you noticed how Bargnani, Okafor, and Biedrins did not even make their top 10 last year... What's even more funny is that those 3 players combined for less than 3 nationally televised games! What exactly are they voting on? (hint: non-Lakers) Bargnani was considered a bust by all until the last 15 games of this past season. Okafor is a great rebounder and solid defender, but that's where the conversation usually ends. Biedrins is also considered as arguably one the biggest busts of recent memory. Google Biedrins and Bust... it's comical.

Honest Truth
07-28-2009, 05:07 PM
i think the 5 - 10 spot should be between (in no particular order)...

Chris Kaman (capable of averaging 16/13/3)

Okur (highest scoring center left..capable of spreading the floor and creating mismatches in addition to banging down in the post)

Emeka Okafor (consistent...13/10/2)

Andris Biedrin (12/11/2)

Nene (solid playoff performance)

Marcus Camby (DPOY...(10/11/2)

honorable mentions - Al Horford (11/9), Brook Lopez (13/8/2), Andrew Bogut (12/10), Kendrick Perkins (good defensive player...9/8/2)....

I'm really hesistent to put Bargnani in the list simply because he doesn't have any post game...both offensively and defensively. Who ever heard of a center with no post game? He's pretty much a SF/SG masqurating as a center because he's 7 ft tall.




but yea...I'm not voting to protest Bargnani's inclusion at the #5 spot.

Good breakdown of the remaining centers. It is a shame you ruined it by harping on your protest that few actually care about. For the record, I voted Okafor for #5 and #6 and hopefully not for #7. One of the most non-sensical trades I have ever seen. If someone figures out why they traded him away for Chandler..really, why, please let me know.

IBleedPurple
07-28-2009, 05:07 PM
Not really much of a homer pick IMO. Nene is the 4th best center in the NBA.

I'm just waiting for all the Laker homers to flood in a vote Bynum despite his mediocrity.

I think Biedrins & Bynum are at best equal to Nene, and Okafor could be very slightly better. But hype would put them all ahead of Nene, of course :mad:

IBleedPurple
07-28-2009, 05:09 PM
Top 3 defensive C in the League.
Andrew Bynum deserves to go in this slot (actually higher).

^ Speaking of hype, here it is

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 05:21 PM
^ Speaking of hype, here it is

How is that hype? Name better centers at DEFENSIVE play.

lakers4sho
07-28-2009, 06:34 PM
I'm guessing 90% of posters have never seen Okafur play and are voting based on stats alone. He's the third best player on a non-playoff team that has regressed since his rookie season and has as much trouble defending length as anyone in the game.

I really think Okafor is overrated.

I mean, until last season he's playing with freakin' Primos Brezec, Nazr Mohammed, or Sean May next to him. At least he should average more than 15 points per game :o

Jays Claw
07-28-2009, 06:45 PM
I should have voted for Al Horford instead of Emeka Okafor.

Vidball
07-28-2009, 07:04 PM
^^Someone change that vote...Bynum tied for the lead! He should have went #5 and Nene should be #6

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 07:16 PM
Bargnani:pity:

Nene
Bynum
Okafor

DUBSfanatic
07-28-2009, 07:17 PM
Andres Biendrinds

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:19 PM
Biedrins has more votes than Bynum?!?! The only knock on Bynum is injury issues and Biedrins missed 20 games last year!

Biedrins is a horrid defensive player and a much worse offensive player. How is he getting more votes than Bynum?

This is truly astonishing.

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 07:20 PM
Kendrick Perkins i beleive is a better defender than andrew bynum

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:23 PM
Kendrick Perkins i beleive is a better defender than andrew bynum

IMO, only Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins have strong cases for being better defensive players than Bynum.

DUBSfanatic
07-28-2009, 07:24 PM
IMO, only Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins have strong cases for being better defensive players than Bynum.

Andris is too

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 07:25 PM
Armin, U are h0mer LOL

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:27 PM
Armin, U are h0mer LOL

:eyebrow:

Riiiiight...

I'm a homer for believing the player with the #5 PER for centers, top 3 in defense, and is among the top 5 in per-36 stats is 6th best?

lakers4sho
07-28-2009, 07:27 PM
Biedrins has more votes than Bynum?!?! The only knock on Bynum is injury issues and Biedrins missed 20 games last year!

Biedrins is a horrid defensive player and a much worse offensive player. How is he getting more votes than Bynum?

This is truly astonishing.

But...but...he's playing in Nellie's system where production is inflated, and the next guy playing with him is half his size!! Don't you get it???

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:28 PM
Andris is too

Ummmm...Not at all. Biedrins is an awful defender. His opponents have over a 23 PER (although this is not the end all, be all stat).

lakers4sho
07-28-2009, 07:28 PM
:eyebrow:

Riiiiight...

I'm a homer for believing the player with the #5 PER for centers, top 3 in defense, and is among the top 5 in per-36 stats is 6th best?

Yes you are buddy

:rolleyes:

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 07:29 PM
Bynum hasnt proven hes a top 5 center in this league, what has he done?

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:29 PM
But...but...he's playing in Nellie's system where production is inflated, and the next guy playing with him is half his size!! Don't you get it???

I know, huh? Lets throw out the window the fact that Bynum destroys Andris Biedrins in every aspect of the game...He's so awesome and not a Laker!

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 07:30 PM
LOL U r homer, but i wasnt calling u a homer in this case. Bynum is alright as a center nothing to go crazy over, but he is better then biendrins

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:31 PM
Bynum hasnt proven hes a top 5 center in this league, what has he done?

#5 PER in the NBA.
Top 3 Defensive play (OPP-PER)
Top 5 in Per-36
21 PPG/12 RPG/3 BPG in 12 games prior to injury
26 PPG/14 RPG/3 BPG in 5 games prior to injury

Yet you say he shouldn't be #6?

What has Biedrins done in this league? :eyebrow:

Y@SM@N
07-28-2009, 07:31 PM
I know, huh? Lets throw out the window the fact that Bynum destroys Andris Biedrins in every aspect of the game...He's so awesome and not a Laker!

haha andris will be a better player than andrew will ever be. thats the truth! & it hurts.
Laker homers.. :pity:

Y@SM@N
07-28-2009, 07:32 PM
#5 PER in the NBA.
Top 3 Defensive play (OPP-PER)
Top 5 in Per-36
21 PPG/12 RPG/3 BPG in 12 games prior to injury
26 PPG/14 RPG/3 BPG in 5 games prior to injury

Yet you say he shouldn't be #6?

What has Biedrins done in this league? :eyebrow:

Why the **** is Bargs at 5?????????????????????????????????????????????
this is ********

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 07:32 PM
i voted okafor, and **** per 36, what does he do per game?

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:33 PM
LOL U r homer, but i wasnt calling u a homer in this case. Bynum is alright as a center nothing to go crazy over, but he is better then beindrins

Lets examine the cases in which you have called me a homer (this happens to be a common occurrence with you):

Me: I predict the Lakers will win the NBA Championship in 09.
You: LOL U r a homer

Me: I think the Lakers are better than the Hornets.
You: Ur just a homer

:eyebrow: It's not being a homer. It is called evaluating and judging. It just so happens the Lakers are on top right now. It doesn't make me a homer...Should I just go against the Lakers in every argument (which would be illogical)? :laugh2:

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:34 PM
i voted okafor, and **** per 36, what does he do per game?

His stats are better than Okafor's per game...and especially better per 36...and his defensive stats are especially better...

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:34 PM
haha andris will be a better player than andrew will ever be. thats the truth! & it hurts.
Laker homers.. :pity:

What is your logic that supports this statement?

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 07:36 PM
Lets examine the cases in which you have called me a homer (this happens to be a common occurrence with you):

Me: I predict the Lakers will win the NBA Championship in 09.
You: LOL U r a homer

Me: I think the Lakers are better than the Hornets.
You: Ur just a homer

:eyebrow: It's not being a homer. It is called evaluating and judging. It just so happens the Lakers are on top right now. It doesn't make me a homer...Should I just go against the Lakers in every argument (which would be illogical)? :laugh2:

Armin, U are a well known homer on this site, dont act like your not. But thats not thw point of this thread.. Im agreeing with u by saying bynum is better then Biedrins and u know how much i hate bynum

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 07:38 PM
Okafor averages 2 more boards, and 1 less point, and he played the WHOLE year, bynum 1.8 blocks, okafor 1.7, Not Better

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:38 PM
Armin, U are a well known homer on this site, dont act like your not. But thats not thw point of this thread.. Im agreeing with u by saying bynum is better then Biedrins and u know how much i hate bynum

A homer is usually someone who favors their home team in arguments against all logic.

Again, point out where I have been illogical...Saying the Lakers are the best or Bynum is the #6 Center doesn't make me a homer as BOTH ideas/theories/ideologies are supported heavily by FACTS and are even widely accepted as truth or close to it.

DUBSfanatic
07-28-2009, 07:39 PM
What is your logic that supports this statement?

Bynum will NEVER be healthy. His finals performance was crap. Andris wouldve done a lot better.
Andris is more versitile, has better hands, more athletic, top 10 in FG%.
Yea, drew's a better scorer, but he has a horrible shot selection.
Mark my words, this year Andris will tear up Bynum in their head to head matchups!

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:40 PM
Okafor averages 2 more boards, and 1 less point, and he played the WHOLE year, bynum 1.8 blocks, okafor 1.7, Not Better

Bynum was injured due to a freak accident...

How about defense buddy? I know you are enamored by those simple stats, but look at the game in more detail as there is more to the game of basketball than points, rebounds, and blocks.

BTW--Bynum has a higher PER, which is a offensive/rebounding statistics that takes into account PACE FACTORS. It is not the end all, be all as there is still defense, but Bynum dominates Okafor in that category.

lakers4sho
07-28-2009, 07:41 PM
What is your logic that supports this statement?

His logic: you're a homer :cool:

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 07:42 PM
A homer is usually someone who favors their home team in arguments against all logic.

Again, point out where I have been illogical...Saying the Lakers are the best or Bynum is the #6 Center doesn't make me a homer as BOTH ideas/theories/ideologies are supported heavily by FACTS and are even widely accepted as truth or close to it.

God man read, I SAID U R RIGHT THAT BYNUM IS BETTER THEN BIEDRINS...
When did I say something about the Lakers here?
I dont think they are the best unless the resign Odom, but what does that have to do with anything.

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 07:43 PM
Well buddy, freak accidents dont happen two years in a row, and bynum never ever ever gets double teamed, he's playing along side kobe and pau, his jobs easier than okafors

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 07:43 PM
Bynum was injured due to a freak accident...

How about defense buddy? I know you are enamored by those simple stats, but look at the game in more detail as there is more to the game of basketball than points, rebounds, and blocks.

BTW--Bynum has a higher PER, which is a offensive/rebounding statistics that takes into account PACE FACTORS. It is not the end all, be all as there is still defense, but Bynum dominates Okafor in that category.

And he will continue to get injured because he is very injury prone.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:45 PM
Bynum will NEVER be healthy.

Nostradamus, is that you? :rolleyes:


His finals performance was crap.

Offensively, but not defensively. It is also not his fault about the outside forces. Plus he was playing at 65%.


Andris wouldve done a lot better.

Nope. Howard would have DEMOLISHED him as he usually does.


Andris is more versitile, has better hands, more athletic, top 10 in FG%.

Bynum doesn't need versatility. He is a FRANCHISE DOMINANT CENTER...You know, the position that has been anchoring all-time franchises for the past 60 year...Bynum has much better hands and the best footwork in the league besides Yao.


Yea, drew's a better scorer, but he has a horrible shot selection.

Not at all. Speak to Dr. Jack Ramsay and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar about Andrew Bynum. Again, I am merely quoting experts. :eyebrow:


Mark my words, this year Andris will tear up Bynum in their head to head matchups

How can you suggest that when history shows that Bynum dominates in all their head to head matchups (see:07-08 GS v. LA matchups)?

lakers4sho
07-28-2009, 07:46 PM
And he will continue to get injured because he is very injury prone.

No he's not.

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 07:47 PM
No he's not.

Well that is to be determined, I would definitely class him as injury prone. One too many shots to the knee is is wear and tear

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:49 PM
Well buddy, freak accidents dont happen two years in a row,

Yes they do.


and bynum never ever ever gets double teamed,

He did (see: 12 games prior to injury when Bynum was Lakers 2nd best player).


he's playing along side kobe and pau, his jobs easier than okafors

Not really. The dude never gets the ball. He never gets touches. His numbers would be huge on the Bobcats especially alongside Felton, DJ, and Wallace.


And he will continue to get injured because he is very injury prone.

Nope. Doctors (Vinny or Doctors?) say he is not injury prone. He has a good frame and a big, physical body. Both injuries were freak accidents and nothing more. If he gets injured next year, then we are talking. Otherwise, both injuries were completely unrelated and different. Injury prone is usually associated with an affliction that resurfaces over and over again (see: Hill and T-Mac). Bynum got unlucky as he landed on LO's foot and twisted his knee and Kobe fell at full speed right on his knee.

Kakaroach
07-28-2009, 07:50 PM
The correct choice, Biedrins, is winning. :clap: Good to see PSD is getting it right, even if it is 1 spot late lol.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:51 PM
Well that is to be determined, I would definitely class him as injury prone. One too many shots to the knee is is wear and tear

One injury was to his left and one injury was to his right. Two totally different injuries. He is not having a repeating affliction to the same body part.

BTW--Doctors or Vinny? I'm going with the doctors who determined freak accident.

DUBSfanatic
07-28-2009, 07:51 PM
No he's not.

Yeah he is. last 2 knee injuries were vs memphis....is it bouta be a 3rd this year vs memphis????

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:51 PM
The correct choice, Biedrins, is winning. :clap: Good to see PSD is getting it right, even if it is 1 spot late lol.

How is Biedrins the correct choice? I guess we don't care about defense anymore...(or offense)

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 07:52 PM
U say unlucky, we say injury prone, and dont talk about 12 games BEFORE HE GOT INJURED. 12 games aint ****, bynum cant play 30 mins a game without hurtin himself

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:53 PM
Yeah he is. last 2 knee injuries were vs memphis....is it bouta be a 3rd this year vs memphis????

:confused: How is the team relevant?

Nope. Doctors (DUBS or Doctors?) say he is not injury prone. He has a good frame and a big, physical body. Both injuries were freak accidents and nothing more. If he gets injured next year, then we are talking. Otherwise, both injuries were completely unrelated and different. Injury prone is usually associated with an affliction that resurfaces over and over again (see: Hill and T-Mac). Bynum got unlucky as he landed on LO's foot and twisted his knee and Kobe fell at full speed right on his knee.

DUBSfanatic
07-28-2009, 07:53 PM
The correct choice, Biedrins, is winning. :clap: Good to see PSD is getting it right, even if it is 1 spot late lol.

Yes! Finally someone that knows about basketball ! :clap:

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:53 PM
U say unlucky, we say injury prone, and dont talk about 12 games BEFORE HE GOT INJURED. 12 games aint ****, bynum cant play 30 mins a game without hurtin himself

Nope. Doctors had A MEDICAL EXPLANATION.

Nevermind. I forgot that this is PSD and hyperbole overrides logic and medical fact. :eyebrow: :cool:

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 07:54 PM
One injury was to his left and one injury was to his right. Two totally different injuries. He is not having a repeating affliction to the same body part.

BTW--Doctors or Vinny? I'm going with the doctors who determined freak accident.

What the hell is a freak accident??
Im saying right now logically* he is injury prone and your homer if you say he isn't

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:54 PM
Yes! Finally someone that knows about basketball ! :clap:

Right...Because statistics from all different sources, Dr. Jack Ramsay, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are damn liars who nothing about basketball...:rolleyes:

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 07:57 PM
Statistically, nene is better than both okafor and bynum

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 07:57 PM
What the hell is a freak accident??
Im saying right now logically* he is injury prone and your homer if you say he isn't

:puke:

Me breaking my wrists in 7th grade was a freak accident...

Me repeatedly breaking my index finger is injury prone...

Bynum dislocating his knee by stepping on Lamar's foot and twisting his knee and over a year later straining his other knee because Kobe ran right into his knee was a freak accident...

T-Mac repeatedly hurting the same knee is injury prone...

Grant Hill having the same ankle problems is injury prone...

Do you see the difference, Dr.? Ima go with the REAL doctors. :eyebrow:

Kakaroach
07-28-2009, 07:59 PM
Yes! Finally someone that knows about basketball ! :clap: Haha apparently there are lots of people who do cuz Biedrins is winning. :clap:

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 08:00 PM
Well since Bynum hasnt been in the league soo long and he had knee injuries two years in a row, I call him Injury Prone. if he can stay healthy for most of the year, then we'll see.

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:00 PM
:puke:

Me breaking my wrists in 7th grade was a freak accident...

Me repeatedly breaking my index finger is injury prone...

Bynum dislocating his knee by stepping on Lamar's foot and twisting his knee and over a year later straining his other knee because Kobe ran right into his knee was a freak accident...

T-Mac repeatedly hurting the same knee is injury prone...

Grant Hill having the same ankle problems is injury prone...

Do you see the difference, Dr.? Ima go with the REAL doctors. :eyebrow:

Or u can say gettin hurt 2 years in a row is injury prone. But i guess u just ignore those kinds of things

Jays Claw
07-28-2009, 08:02 PM
How is Andris Biedrins leading the poll for sixth best center?

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:05 PM
Or u can say gettin hurt 2 years in a row is injury prone. But i guess u just ignore those kinds of things

Nope. Two unrelated injuries do not make someone injury prone...

Read the examples and listen to doctors who are the people who are EXPERTS...

Nevermind. I forgot that BigSam knows everything about the medical field.

Nighthawk
07-28-2009, 08:06 PM
POLLS A JOKE? ANDREA BARGNANI


THATS THE PERSON WE ALL REALLY THINK IS THE 5TH BEST CENTER IN THE LEAGUE?

gimme a break... Hes better than Biedrins? Okafor? Kaman? Camby? Bynum? Bogut? Okur? Nene? come on


refuse to vote for any of these redundant polls

soundjunkies2
07-28-2009, 08:07 PM
Andris Biedrins at 6, really?

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:07 PM
Biedrins was and still is my choice.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:07 PM
Well since Bynum hasnt been in the league soo long and he had knee injuries two years in a row, I call him Injury Prone. if he can stay healthy for most of the year, then we'll see.

He has played 3 years in the league (Lakers didn't play him much at all in his first year). He has played 82 games, 35 games, and 52 games (plus 23 more games in playoffs). He has played in over 66% games possible, which isn't bad. That is about 55 games. Now, remember he is only 21 years old!!! The dude is so young and has barely any mileage on him. He is smart and is already working on his lower body strength with Sean Zarzana. If he gets another knee injury specifically next year, then we can talk about injury prone...Right now, there isn't enough data.

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 08:08 PM
Nope. Two unrelated injuries do not make someone injury prone...

Read the examples and listen to doctors who are the people who are EXPERTS...

Nevermind. I forgot that BigSam knows everything about the medical field.

it starts as too injuries but then it becomes a current problem and his career is down the drain

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:08 PM
Or u can say gettin hurt 2 years in a row is injury prone. But i guess u just ignore those kinds of things

Nope. Two unrelated injuries do not make someone injury prone...

Read the examples and listen to doctors who are the people who are EXPERTS...

Nevermind. I forgot that BigSam knows everything about the medical field. :rolleyes:

Nighthawk
07-28-2009, 08:08 PM
How is Andris Biedrins leading the poll for sixth best center?

LOL


Hes better than bargnani by far.. Biedrins is a bonafide double double every night. Get out of here with this junk post....

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:08 PM
How is Andris Biedrins leading the poll for sixth best center?

The hatred for Andrew Bynum is beyond massive here on PSD...

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:09 PM
so youre telling me doctors knew ghill and tmac were gonna be injury prone? no doctors said the same thing about them, and look what happened

Jays Claw
07-28-2009, 08:11 PM
The hatred for Andrew Bynum is beyond massive here on PSD...

When Andrew Bynum is healthy he can be dominant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZpiCJs6rvI

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:11 PM
it starts as too injuries but then it becomes a current problem and his career is down the drain

Hyperbole once again here on PSD. :rolleyes:

Like I said, examine once it becomes a recurring problem. It's like doing an experiment (if you ever went to HS or University). There are many different variables and you must do experiments repeatedly before making a solid judgement. Two obvious (and declared) freak accidents do not make a recurring problem...Three? Now we can even START to have a discussion. Otherwise, not at all.

Don't argue, "well it starts as too many injuries." That is pure speculation that is not based on any fact or statistical evidence or even what a doctor said!

ink
07-28-2009, 08:12 PM
Nope. Two unrelated injuries do not make someone injury prone...

Not that it's really worth discussing since it's already been :horse:

... but I've never heard of any rule that says "two unrelated injuries do not make someone injury prone" ...

I don't care if Bynum is injury prone or not. IMO he is injury prone since he's had two seasons ruined. But it doesn't change my opinion of him at all. He's a very good player with an excellent coach and he should have a good career. I'm hoping he stays healthy and realizes his potential.

GodsSon
07-28-2009, 08:21 PM
went with Okafor here, but Biedrins could just have easily received my vote...with that said, how can people be upset Bargs got the 5th spot, but give their vote to a guy who's missed a good chunk of the last 2 seasons??? makes no sense to me

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:22 PM
so youre telling me doctors knew ghill and tmac were gonna be injury prone? no doctors said the same thing about them, and look what happened

Nope. Never said that. I am telling you what the doctors are saying now...Everything that BigSam or DUBS or Vinny insist ("Bynum will have his career ruined") are pure speculation and based solely on hatred and bias.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:24 PM
Not that it's really worth discussing since it's already been :horse:

... but I've never heard of any rule that says "two unrelated injuries do not make someone injury prone" ...

I don't care if Bynum is injury prone or not. IMO he is injury prone since he's had two seasons ruined. But it doesn't change my opinion of him at all. He's a very good player with an excellent coach and he should have a good career. I'm hoping he stays healthy and realizes his potential.

It isn't a rule. It was simply an explanation that his doctor was giving. Both injuries were of the freak accident sorts...The WAY they happened.

Now, the fact that they did not happen on the same knee and were completely different injuries (dislocation; strain) usually points and directs to the idea that he is likely not injury prone at this point. His build and strength only adds to the idea that he should not be injury prone. Not only that, but his doctor gave him a regiment which will only add strength to his lower body which should prevent future injuries (although if another 220 pound thing lands on his knee, I doubt he can prevent an injury...).

ink
07-28-2009, 08:30 PM
It doesn't really matter anyway.

He's going to be good if he can stay healthy. At the moment, he's not among the best because his resume is just too short. That's not so hard to accept.

Both Raptors fans and Lakers fans are guilty of thinking that potential (i.e. future potential) is enough to rank their player highly CURRENTLY.

It is not.

We're ranking C's based on where they are at right now, not where they will be, or based on the great play we've seen for somewhat limited stretches of time.

You can keep on flogging this but it's the same as Bulls fans' belief that Rose is a top 3 PG. Not yet he's not. He hasn't put it all together yet, and not for long enough. These polls are about NOW, not the future.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:32 PM
went with Okafor here, but Biedrins could just have easily received my vote...with that said, how can people be upset Bargs got the 5th spot, but give their vote to a guy who's missed a good chunk of the last 2 seasons??? makes no sense to me

Because maybe that guy has the 5th highest PER for centers, is a top 3 defensive center (both statistically and man wise), has "the best footwork for any young center in the league" (Ramsay), and is already becoming a dominating center.

We get it. He has had two injuries...They are MOST LIKELY (according TO EXPERTS!!!!) freak accidents. Now, judge the PLAYER and not speculation/what if scenarios. Bynum is truly the #5 center in the NBA. Sure, people who play doctors on the internet can speculate all they want, but that doesn't mean anything to what his actual doctors/trainers said.

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 08:34 PM
If you dont want to admit Bynum is injury prone thats fine, but others and I think he is.

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:35 PM
It isn't a rule. It was simply an explanation that his doctor was giving. Both injuries were of the freak accident sorts...The WAY they happened.

Now, the fact that they did not happen on the same knee and were completely different injuries (dislocation; strain) usually points and directs to the idea that he is likely not injury prone at this point. His build and strength only adds to the idea that he should not be injury prone. Not only that, but his doctor gave him a regiment which will only add strength to his lower body which should prevent future injuries (although if another 220 pound thing lands on his knee, I doubt he can prevent an injury...).

hill and tmac were also in great shape, they couldnt prevent injurys

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:36 PM
ANd saying he is not injury prone, based on what doctors usually always say,

Doctors usually say? I'm pretty sure doctors tell you the medical fact. When Yao was having his career possibly threatened, they did NOT sugar coat it. When Shawn Merriman was having his career possibly career threatened, they did NOT sugar coat it.

When Bynum comes in looking for med advice, they aren't going to sugar coat it either. Instead they told him regimens, exercises, etc. to improve his body strength.

Fact. Not bias. :eyebrow:


and claiming him a franchise center, is based solely on bias.

Nope. That is what Mitch, KAJ, Magic, Kobe, etc. have said. Bynum was drafted to be the Lakers franchise center. Whether he realizes his potential remains to be seen.

Fact. Not bias. Again, I AM PULLING OUT FACTS (stats, quotes, etc.).

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:38 PM
For what it's worth, I do think Bynum is the 6th best center in the league. I just think that Biedrins is 5th.

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:38 PM
you are the only person claiming bynum to be a top 3 defensive center, and only 1 person said he has great footwork, other analysts call him clumsy, you gettin ur facts from just one source, Bynum is not a top 5 center in this league, neither if bargs,

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:39 PM
hill and tmac were also in great shape, they couldnt prevent injurys

Again, speculation. Not to mention their bodies could not handle the wear and tear. That was fact and a real worry. Bynum's doctor and trainer have said his strength and build is very good for the long NBA season.

Again, YOU ARE SPECULATING. YOU ARE SPECULATING. YOU ARE MAKING NON-FACT BASED OPINIONATED PREDICTIONS.

I am simply bringing up factual statements.

Essentially, this is fact v. opinion. We'll see what wins out. :eyebrow:


If you dont want to admit Bynum is injury prone thats fine,

I don't need to admit what has not not been determined yet. There are more tests to be done. For now, the testing is not enough and the variables loom too large (seriously, retake HS Chem).


but others and I think he is.

Good for you. Can I see your PhD? :eyebrow:

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:40 PM
KObe didnt even want bynum, he was stuck withem so he made due, and u named lakers, of course they wont admit dudes injury prone.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:40 PM
It doesn't really matter anyway.

He's going to be good if he can stay healthy. At the moment, he's not among the best because his resume is just too short. That's not so hard to accept.

Both Raptors fans and Lakers fans are guilty of thinking that potential (i.e. future potential) is enough to rank their player highly CURRENTLY.

It is not.

We're ranking C's based on where they are at right now, not where they will be, or based on the great play we've seen for somewhat limited stretches of time.

You can keep on flogging this but it's the same as Bulls fans' belief that Rose is a top 3 PG. Not yet he's not. He hasn't put it all together yet, and not for long enough. These polls are about NOW, not the future.

He was the #5 in PER for centers this year and a top 3 defensive center. NOW, he is the #6 center at least.

mavwar53
07-28-2009, 08:40 PM
Well I didn't vote for bynum cause of injuries, but the same went for me on yao, the guy is always injured and wont even play next season, anyone saying Bynums injuries are the reason, I hope they didn't vote for yao

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:41 PM
FACTS ARE THAT HE GETS INJURED. wow that was easy

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:41 PM
He was the #5 in PER for centers this year and a top 3 defensive center. NOW, he is the #6 center at least.

Well he would have been #5 had he played enough games to qualify.

I don't think it's a ridiculous assertion to want to see Bynum play a full season before judging his merits as a player.

Slumberking
07-28-2009, 08:42 PM
Easy for me. Biedrins is best of those left. Emeka is next tho. Both board well, but biedrins offensive capabilities are better. Emeka has better D but not by much anymore

jsumadchat
07-28-2009, 08:42 PM
:eyebrow:

Riiiiight...

I'm a homer for believing the player with the #5 PER for centers, top 3 in defense, and is among the top 5 in per-36 stats is 6th best?

you are a homer. everyone voting on bynum is a freaking homer. nene, okafor and biedrins are all better than him. i just find it laughable to take per-36 into serious consideration. look for pops mensah-bonsu's per36 and tell me HE belongs in this conversation as well. and everyone please get over the bargnani hate. i could list reasons why i think he deserves the 5th spot. obviously many readers choose not to see it as well, but he was voted in and thats that. lets move on and see how the rest of this unfolds, its all supposed to be for seeing where everyone lands at the end of next season anyway.

ink
07-28-2009, 08:42 PM
He was the #5 in PER for centers this year and a top 3 defensive center. NOW, he is the #6 center at least.

You do realize this is an internet poll on a fan forum right?

What if he came in 15th? What if Nene came in 30th? What if Shaq came in 1st?

Who really cares? You've made your points. You've voted, other people have voted.

It's just not enough to get so worked up about.

GodsSon
07-28-2009, 08:44 PM
Because maybe that guy has the 5th highest PER for centers, is a top 3 defensive center (both statistically and man wise), has "the best footwork for any young center in the league" (Ramsay), and is already becoming a dominating center.

We get it. He has had two injuries...They are MOST LIKELY (according TO EXPERTS!!!!) freak accidents. Now, judge the PLAYER and not speculation/what if scenarios. Bynum is truly the #5 center in the NBA. Sure, people who play doctors on the internet can speculate all they want, but that doesn't mean anything to what his actual doctors/trainers said.

the guy has played 85 games in 2 seasons, if injuries force you to miss almost a full season in the L, there is no way you can be considered a top 4 and 5 center after enduring 2 injury plagued seasons...call them freak accidents all you want, the guy has sustained 3 knee injuries since highschool, thats what? 3 in 5 years? sounds like his knees are suspect to me...you can keep quoting doctors, PER stats, defensive stats, Ramsay, Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt and whatever else you like, the one thing you arent understanding is they all mean nothing if you cant put them to use on the court, period.

ink
07-28-2009, 08:45 PM
Well he would have been #5 had he played enough games to qualify.

I don't think it's a ridiculous assertion to want to see Bynum play a full season before judging his merits as a player.

Exactly. If we're using stats then the sample size needs to be adequate. Same thing applies to both Bynum and Bargnani, two players with a lot of potential who need to put it together for a whole season (at least) before people start going crazy about getting them voted in among the best in the league.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:46 PM
you are the only person claiming bynum to be a top 3 defensive center

Nope. Many believe he is. Actually, most believe he is top 3 defensively. Not only that, but his OPP-PER is in top 3. Bynum holds opponents at a 15 PER while Dwight holds opponents at a 14 PER. They are the two best at defense at the position IMO.


, and only 1 person said he has great footwork

Nope. Many have said so. Ramsay is the most famous and knowledgeable though.


, other analysts call him clumsy,

Not true.


you gettin ur facts from just one source,

Not true. Scouting Report on Bynum:


Bynum is a huge center with soft hands and a nice touch around the basket, and that combo is a killer in the post. He likes to set up on the left block and shoot a short jump hook with his right hand, and with his size he's able to get deep position easily. What makes it even more devastating is that he's a skilled and willing passer out of double teams who should only get better with more experience against doubles.


As a defender, Bynum is great around the basket because of his size -- he can block shots, controls the defensive glass and is difficult to post up against

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:47 PM
Also, Armin, maybe I missed a part that you wrote about how his knees have fully healed, but don't we also need to see how his knees hold up after these freak accidents? Regardless of how the injuries happen, the fact that they have been injured has certainly weakened his knees to some degree.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:48 PM
Well he would have been #5 had he played enough games to qualify.

I don't think it's a ridiculous assertion to want to see Bynum play a full season before judging his merits as a player.

He played in 52 games...Everybody was drooling over Kaman last year and Kaman played around 50 games as well last year...WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD?!?

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 08:50 PM
Nope. Many believe he is. Actually, most believe he is top 3 defensively. Not only that, but his OPP-PER is in top 3. Bynum holds opponents at a 15 PER while Dwight holds opponents at a 14 PER. They are the two best at defense at the position IMO.



Nope. Many have said so. Ramsay is the most famous and knowledgeable though.



Not true.



Not true. Scouting Report on Bynum:

And many think he is overrated. And many think he is injury prone. There is no evidence that says he isnt. but alot to say he is.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:50 PM
you are a homer. everyone voting on bynum is a freaking homer. nene, okafor and biedrins are all better than him. i just find it laughable to take per-36 into serious consideration. look for pops mensah-bonsu's per36 and tell me HE belongs in this conversation as well.

You do realize that your argument is pure fallacy, right?

Bynum played 30 MPG. Using Per-36 is not only SMART, but totally quantifiable.

Using a player who played 1 MPG as an example is not only awful, but it shows a profound lack of understanding of evaluating variables into equations. I'll leave it at that as you probably don't understand what I am talking about.

BTW--Either way, Bynum dominates in head to head, PER, OPP-PER, opposing stats, and overall fluidity of the game. Not to mention BBIQ.

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:50 PM
He played in 52 games...Everybody was drooling over Kamar last year and Kamar played around 50 games as well last year...WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD?!?

Who's Kamar?

Nets fan 93
07-28-2009, 08:50 PM
Why should he. The fact that Raps08-09 Champ felt the need to start a Vote for Bargs thread in the Raptors forum completely destroys all credibility of this poll


But moving on. I went with Okafor here. He is one of the most consistent centers in the league. You can always depend on him for at least 10 and 10 with a few blocks, plus he plays D. I have no idea what Charlotte was thinking trading him for Chandler
We really do need to start it over then...

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:50 PM
Scouting reports are from his game in high school

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:51 PM
Exactly. If we're using stats then the sample size needs to be adequate. Same thing applies to both Bynum and Bargnani, two players with a lot of potential who need to put it together for a whole season (at least) before people start going crazy about getting them voted in among the best in the league.

Sure...52 games is such a small sample size...There is no way we can evaluate a player from watching them play 52 games! :rolleyes:

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:52 PM
Also, Armin, maybe I missed a part that you wrote about how his knees have fully healed, but don't we also need to see how his knees hold up after these freak accidents? Regardless of how the injuries happen, the fact that they have been injured has certainly weakened his knees to some degree.

Not necessarily. Sometimes body parts are actually strengthened from injury. Sometimes it is simply awareness. For example, Bynum is starting to do special exercises to increase lower body strength to prevent future injuries. The dude is motivated to be the best (example: interview after Lakers championship where Bynum vowed to someday lead the Lakers to the championship as the Finals MVP).

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:52 PM
Sure...52 games is such a small sample size...There is no way we can evaluate a player from watching them play 52 games! :rolleyes:

50, not 52. Plus the 23 below-average playoff games (which is obviously unfair, because he didn't really get much of a chance in the playoffs).

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:53 PM
You do realize that your argument is pure fallacy, right?

Bynum played 30 MPG. Using Per-36 is not only SMART, but totally quantifiable.

Using a player who played 1 MPG as an example is not only awful, but it shows a profound lack of understanding of evaluating variables into equations. I'll leave it at that as you probably don't understand what I am talking about.

BTW--Either way, Bynum dominates in head to head, PER, OPP-PER, opposing stats, and overall fluidity of the game. Not to mention BBIQ.

then why not just judge from his average per game

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:53 PM
And many think he is overrated. And many think he is injury prone. There is no evidence that says he isnt. but alot to say he is.

Nope. Oh wait, duh, I forgot. PSD > Medical Community.

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:54 PM
Not necessarily. Sometimes body parts are actually strengthened from injury. Sometimes it is simply awareness. For example, Bynum is starting to do special exercises to increase lower body strength to prevent future injuries. The dude is motivated to be the best (example: interview after Lakers championship where Bynum vowed to someday lead the Lakers to the championship as the Finals MVP).

I agree that he's certainly motivated. But not necessarily leaves open the possibility that he will have future problems linked to these freak accidents. And I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see a full season out of Bynum at that level of play before confidently assessing his value in comparison to, say, Biedrins.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:54 PM
then why not just judge from his average per game

:laugh: Bynum even leads in that too. :laugh:

Gotta love it. :cool:

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:54 PM
Not necessarily. Sometimes body parts are actually strengthened from injury. Sometimes it is simply awareness. For example, Bynum is starting to do special exercises to increase lower body strength to prevent future injuries. The dude is motivated to be the best (example: interview after Lakers championship where Bynum vowed to someday lead the Lakers to the championship as the Finals MVP).

motivated to go to the playboy mansion during rehab

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:55 PM
50, not 52.

:eyebrow:

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:56 PM
Who's Kamar?

(as he-- ^ -- dodges the question to save face) :eyebrow:

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 08:56 PM
:laugh: Bynum even leads in that too. :laugh:

Gotta love it. :cool:

nene and okafor have better stats per game. laughs laughs

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:56 PM
:eyebrow:

More than anything I was surprised that someone who has obviously researched Bynum diligently could make such an obvious error.

GodsSon
07-28-2009, 08:57 PM
:laugh: Bynum even leads in that too. :laugh:

Gotta love it. :cool:

not compared to Biedrins, he doesnt...even though i personally went with Okafor

theuuord
07-28-2009, 08:57 PM
(as he-- ^ -- dodges the question to save face) :eyebrow:

lol what question? Didn't I just ask you a question? What are you so mad about?

Seriously, who's Kamar?

jsumadchat
07-28-2009, 08:58 PM
You do realize that your argument is pure fallacy, right?

Bynum played 30 MPG. Using Per-36 is not only SMART, but totally quantifiable.

Using a player who played 1 MPG as an example is not only awful, but it shows a profound lack of understanding of evaluating variables into equations. I'll leave it at that as you probably don't understand what I am talking about.

BTW--Either way, Bynum dominates in head to head, PER, OPP-PER, opposing stats, and overall fluidity of the game. Not to mention BBIQ.

USING PER36 IN ITSELF IS AWFUL. how can one evaluate any type of variables using per36? explain that to me. no variables are actually taken into account at all. the point im making is that per36 will automatically inflate someones statistical presence and completely undermine what they are ACTUALLY bringing to the game. how does per36 take into account variables such as drawing fouls, creating turnovers, BBIQ and other things of that nature? it doesnt. if you werent so blind, you'd see that certain intangibles cant be measured, which is WHY per36 is flawed.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:58 PM
I agree that he's certainly motivated. But not necessarily leaves open the possibility that he will have future problems linked to these freak accidents. And I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see a full season out of Bynum at that level of play before confidently assessing his value in comparison to, say, Biedrins.

Biedrens himself missed over 20 games...:laugh: Not only that, but Bynums production/efficiency is a whole lot higher than Biedrens. Not to mention the staggering difference in defensive play.

Biedrens OPP-PER- 23
Bynums OPP-PER- 15

That is not the end all, be all for defensive arguments, but I think we can all certainly agree that Bynum is a very good defender and Biedrens is somewhat a joke on that end.

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 08:59 PM
Nope. Oh wait, duh, I forgot. PSD > Medical Community.

The only official evidence that we will be able to see is if he stays healthy next year.

If he doesnt, he defintely should be considered injury prone.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 08:59 PM
lol what question? Didn't I just ask you a question? What are you so mad about?

Seriously, who's Kamar?

Kaman......

Chris Kaman.....

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:00 PM
USING PER36 IN ITSELF IS AWFUL. how can one evaluate any type of variables using per36? explain that to me. no variables are actually taken into account at all. the point im making is that per36 will automatically inflate someones statistical presence and completely undermine what they are ACTUALLY bringing to the game. how does per36 take into account variables such as drawing fouls, creating turnovers, BBIQ and other things of that nature? it doesnt. if you werent so blind, you'd see that certain intangibles cant be measured, which is WHY per36 is flawed.

You can't compare the difference in statistics in Per-36 by comparing a player who plays 1 MPG and a players who plays 30 MPG.

If you can't see that then I am truly very, very sorry.

theuuord
07-28-2009, 09:00 PM
Biedrens himself missed over 20 games...:laugh: Not only that, but Bynums production/efficiency is a whole lot higher than Biedrens. Not to mention the staggering difference in defensive play.

Biedrens OPP-PER- 23
Bynums OPP-PER- 15

That is not the end all, be all for defensive arguments, but I think we can all certainly agree that Bynum is a very good defender and Biedrens is somewhat a joke on that end.

Opponent PER is an okay metric, I don't really like it that much, but I'd agree that Biedrins isn't as good of a defender as Bynum.

Biedrins has missed 26 games the last three seasons combined. Bynum missed 32 last season and 47 the season before it. It's safe to say that their injury histories aren't exactly comparable.

theuuord
07-28-2009, 09:01 PM
Kaman......

Chris Kaman.....

Who's talking about Kaman? I'm not. Kaman has more of a track record but both he and Bynum have had injury issues the last couple of seasons.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:02 PM
The only official evidence that we will be able to see is if he stays healthy next year.

If he doesnt, he defintely should be considered injury prone.

That is literally what I said about 20 times...:mad:

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 09:03 PM
y are you using Per36, use per game, use the averages he actually gets per game

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:04 PM
Who's talking about Kaman? I'm not. Kaman has more of a track record but both he and Bynum have had injury issues the last couple of seasons.

I'm talking about DOUBLE STANDARDS. Kaman was literally praised to no end last year on PSD yet had horrible efficiency and played in only 55 games...Bynum has fantastic efficiency, is a much better defender, and played in 50 games. Why the hypocrisy?

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 09:05 PM
That is literally what I said about 20 times...:mad:

No you didnt u were talking about some doctor BS and beating around the bush.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:05 PM
Opponent PER is an okay metric, I don't really like it that much, but I'd agree that Biedrins isn't as good of a defender as Bynum.

Me neither. It's something though. Some people are insisting Biedrins isn't as good of a defender as Bynum, but at least this sheds some light (although, as I said, it is not the end all, be all).

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:06 PM
y are you using Per36, use per game, use the averages he actually gets per game

His averages per game are still better though....

jsumadchat
07-28-2009, 09:06 PM
You can't compare the difference in statistics in Per-36 by comparing a player who plays 1 MPG and a players who plays 30 MPG.

If you can't see that then I am truly very, very sorry.

i do understand that, and i KNOW pops isnt in the league of ANY of these players. but my point is that per36 is almost irrelevant and only brought pops up to prove your logic wrong, which i feel i did. if bynum avg 30 mins, he avgs 30 mins. NOT 36. per36 is just another way of padding one's stats to make them SEEM more productive. but again, it does not factor any type of intangibles or variables, so it is not a good measuring stick for a players productivity.

theuuord
07-28-2009, 09:07 PM
I'm talking about DOUBLE STANDARDS. Kaman was literally praised to no end last year on PSD yet had horrible efficiency and played in only 55 games...Bynum has fantastic efficiency, is a much better defender, and played in 50 games. Why the hypocrisy?

Kaman has had a track record of playing three full seasons (75+ games) prior to this. Bynum has played one full season. Those are the two primary reasons, I would guess.

ink
07-28-2009, 09:07 PM
I still think that players need to have an established track record to be considered among the top at their position, but I would like to say that Armin has been pretty resourceful with the stats he's bringing forward. We're at cross-purposes though because some of us already acknowledge those stats but see them as too limited to really qualify him among the best C's.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:08 PM
nene and okafor have better stats per game. laughs laughs

Nene, yes....Not Okafor though...

BTW--Nene's PER is still lower than Bynum's though...

still1ballin
07-28-2009, 09:09 PM
That is literally what I said about 20 times...:mad:

Its like you are talking to a wall :laugh2:

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 09:09 PM
His averages per game are still better though....

But okafor and nene have better stats

theuuord
07-28-2009, 09:10 PM
Also, let's note that the double standard you talk about isn't really applicable, since Bynum had missed 47 games prior to this season and Kaman hadn't missed more than 20 games in a season until 2008. Had Kaman played in only 35 games the season before he played 56, I'm sure there would be a difference in the general perspective of him.

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 09:11 PM
okafor averages 1 less point and 2 more boards, how are bynums better,

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:11 PM
No you didnt u were talking about some doctor BS and beating around the bush.

Nope...


Two obvious (and declared) freak accidents do not make a recurring problem...Three? Now we can even START to have a discussion.


If he gets another knee injury specifically next year, then we can talk about injury prone

SEE! I was insisting on this yet you continuously disagree with me until you agreed with me!

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 09:14 PM
Nope...





SEE! I was insisting on this yet you continuously disagree with me until you agreed with me!

I said that Bynum will most likely have another injury. Right now I consider him injury prone. But if he gets hurt next year then it just solidifies my argument.


You only quoted 2 of yours countless posts, which in the other posts you started mocking PSD posters and talking about some doctor BS.
Injury prone doesnt only mean the recurrence of an injury in one spot. He cna have a whole bunch of injuries and be considered INJURY PRONE. One thing is for certain. He is not considered "Not Injury Prone"

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:14 PM
i do understand that, and i KNOW pops isnt in the league of ANY of these players. but my point is that per36 is almost irrelevant and only brought pops up to prove your logic wrong, which i feel i did. if bynum avg 30 mins, he avgs 30 mins. NOT 36. per36 is just another way of padding one's stats to make them SEEM more productive. but again, it does not factor any type of intangibles or variables, so it is not a good measuring stick for a players productivity.

Nope.

Per 36 is to level the playing field. Some players play more minutes because they may stay in blow-outs for example...Or some players are on good teams so they are on too many blow-out so they sit early.

These guys play similar minutes (30-35). Per-36 is not much of a bump or hindrance.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:15 PM
okafor averages 1 less point and 2 more boards, how are bynums better,

See: Efficiency/Pace Factor.

Young2Kinsler
07-28-2009, 09:16 PM
Where is the Erick Dampier button?

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:17 PM
I said that Bynum will most likely have another injury. Right now I consider him injury prone. But if he gets hurt next year then it just solidifies my argument.


The only official evidence that we will be able to see is if he stays healthy next year.

If he doesnt, he defintely should be considered injury prone.

You finally said this. ^^^ This is very, very reasonable. LETS WAIT AND SEE ON WHETHER OR NOT HE IS INJURY PRONE! We cannot evaluate that now and you finally agreed. Your statement was reasonable...and one I was insisting on for posts on end.

Young2Kinsler
07-28-2009, 09:17 PM
Shaq 4 makes this whole poll pointless.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-28-2009, 09:18 PM
Damn it.

I can't have any fun.

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 09:21 PM
You finally said this. ^^^ This is very, very reasonable. LETS WAIT AND SEE ON WHETHER OR NOT HE IS INJURY PRONE! We cannot evaluate that now and you finally agreed. Your statement was reasonable...and one I was insisting on for posts on end.

But right now u cant say he isnt injury prone either, it is yet to be determined,

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 09:23 PM
or say that a center who has 2 incomplete seasons is a top 5 center in the nba

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 09:24 PM
But right now u cant say he isnt injury prone either, it is yet to be determined,

At this point he is not because we still need more evidence...Innocent until proven guilty concept.

lakerfan 4 life
07-28-2009, 09:25 PM
Pointless poll. Apparently every center in the NBA is better then Bynum. Wtf!!! This poll is a joke especially because you guys have Bynum ranked behind Shaq Bargani and pretty soon this other clown? Waste of time

Vinny642
07-28-2009, 09:26 PM
At this point he is not because we still need more evidence...Innocent until proven guilty concept.

This isnt the court of law.
He has been injured both of the last two seasons. Based on that evidence you cant say he isnt injury prone.

DUBSfanatic
07-28-2009, 09:26 PM
Pointless poll. Apparently every center in the NBA is better then Bynum. Wtf!!! This poll is a joke especially because you guys have Bynum ranked behind Shaq Bargani and pretty soon this other clown? Waste of time

Biedrins isnt a clown, stop hating

sanfranfan1210
07-28-2009, 09:26 PM
Andris Biedrins

bigsams50
07-28-2009, 09:26 PM
shaq is better than bynum

Anthony Flores
07-28-2009, 09:29 PM
Andrea and Andris great 5 and 6.... :mad:

Chronz
07-28-2009, 09:42 PM
Why you so high on Biedrin and not your hometown boy, uuord?

jmastert
07-28-2009, 09:50 PM
how the **** is bargnani number 5. theres at least 5-7 centers still available better than him! This thread is stupid

theuuord
07-28-2009, 10:02 PM
Why you so high on Biedrin and not your hometown boy, uuord?

I'm very high on him (seriously - he's one of my favorite players in the league based on interviews alone), but I want to stay realistic. How he responds to not having Carter to play off in his second season will really solidify his value.

He has the chance to be a top 5-10 center but I don't think he's there yet. Biedrins has a much longer track record.

Chronz
07-28-2009, 10:15 PM
I'm very high on him (seriously - he's one of my favorite players in the league based on interviews alone), but I want to stay realistic. How he responds to not having Carter to play off in his second season will really solidify his value.

He has the chance to be a top 5-10 center but I don't think he's there yet. Biedrins has a much longer track record.

I was talking about Bynum, he was born in the meadowlands wasnt he, well somewhere in NJ. But yes I rank both of them above Biedrins.

theuuord
07-28-2009, 10:17 PM
I was talking about Bynum, he was born in the meadowlands wasnt he, well somewhere in NJ. But yes I rank both of them above Biedrins.

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I like Bynum. I actually played against him once. I disagree with putting him over Biedrins yet though.

Chronz
07-28-2009, 10:19 PM
Why is Bynum unproven? If you use the sample of the last 167 games hes played in the past 3 years they show a trend consistent with the best pivots in the league, certainly much more proven than Bargs.

theuuord
07-28-2009, 10:19 PM
Why is Bynum unproven? If you use the sample of the last 167 games hes played in the past 3 years they show a consistency trend consistent with the best pivots in the league, certainly much more proven than Bargs.

I agree he's better than Bargnani, but Bargs wasn't #5 in this poll because he deserved it.
IMO Biedrins is 5 and Bynum is 6.

Chronz
07-28-2009, 10:24 PM
I agree he's better than Bargnani, but Bargs wasn't #5 in this poll because he deserved it.
IMO Biedrins is 5 and Bynum is 6.
I didnt mean to to direct that question towards you, just read some of the points being made here, and I read something about Bynum being unproven.

But on topic, how good is Biedrins offensive game? Can they dump it to him and ask him to create, does he command any double teams, is he a willing and able passer out of those double teams, how good is his footwork both defensively and offensively, rebounding prowess, head 2 head how do they fair? When it comes to bigmen these are some of my most important questions. Head 2 head matters more with in the paint matchups IMO.

Gibby
07-28-2009, 10:29 PM
i went with okafor but 5-10 is really close among centers.

clutchski
07-28-2009, 10:48 PM
I'm surprised Emeka has received so many votes over Bogut.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 11:47 PM
I didnt mean to to direct that question towards you, just read some of the points being made here, and I read something about Bynum being unproven.

But on topic, how good is Biedrins offensive game?

Not good at all.


Can they dump it to him and ask him to create

Never. In fact, Nellie has even said that they value him as a garbage scorer. He grabs the garbage points. Otherwise he is a pretty bad post player.


, does he command any double teams

Nope.


, is he a willing and able passer out of those double teams

He is a willing passer, but not an able passer. Not to mention he never gets those double teams in the first place.


, how good is his footwork both defensively and offensively

Very stiff. He doesn't have very fluid and good footwork on either end.


, rebounding prowess

Pretty good.


, head 2 head how do they fair?

Biedrins routinely gets dominated by Bynum. Bynum averaged 16/11 on 54% against GS this year and 19/14 on 70% against GS last year. Biedrins did not fare so well.

ARMIN12NBA
07-28-2009, 11:49 PM
Apparently defense is lost and forgotten on the new NBA fans of this generation. Bargnani and Biedrins, two of the worst defensive centers out there, are about to be voted #5 and #6.

LA_Raiders
07-28-2009, 11:58 PM
Andris, lol

still1ballin
07-29-2009, 12:06 AM
I rather have Jermaine O'Neal over Biedrens LOL

IversonIsKrazy
07-29-2009, 01:40 AM
Man, i'd rather have Okafor over Biedrins any day of the week. O well, im still surprised Bynum isnt winning this/

IversonIsKrazy
07-29-2009, 01:42 AM
Man, i would rather have Bynum as well over Biedrins. He is terrible, his 12ppg, come off of garbage baskets. And hes a terrible defender, Biedrins just sux.

GSW fan
07-29-2009, 01:47 AM
Homer: AB

GSW fan
07-29-2009, 01:52 AM
whats w/ all the hating on AB?

He is a great rebounder, solid defender, gets his blocks, great on P&R, and has some move near the basket.

He's not bad

Chronz
07-29-2009, 02:46 AM
Im 100% certain no one here is hating, everyone acknowledges the fact that these are the best players at their positions, but cmon now. What makes Biedrins so special?

lakerfan 4 life
07-29-2009, 02:57 AM
Biedrins isnt a clown, stop hating

Yes he is!! Hes horrible. Bynum has dominated him each of the times they have played against each other.

B.JenningsMVP
07-29-2009, 03:00 AM
Looks like Andris wins

zambo4president
07-29-2009, 03:00 AM
Went with Lopez. Im straight with Biedrins at 6 though. Hes legit.

CELTICS4LYFE
07-29-2009, 10:26 AM
Im 100% certain no one here is hating, everyone acknowledges the fact that these are the best players at their positions, but cmon now. What makes Biedrins so special?

12 an 11...57% thats not bad

AntiG
07-29-2009, 10:30 AM
Yes he is!! Hes horrible. Bynum has dominated him each of the times they have played against each other.

that doesn't mean anything. Kendrick Perkins dominated Dwight Howard when he defended him, but that doesn't mean Perkins is the better player, he just matches up better against him.

CELTICS4LYFE
07-29-2009, 10:34 AM
where's 7???

Kakaroach
07-29-2009, 10:40 AM
Good to see Biedrins won. Even if he was a spot late, I'm glad PSD is getting it right now.

Chronz
07-29-2009, 11:52 AM
12 an 11...57% thats not bad

Its not great either

ManRam
07-29-2009, 01:01 PM
that doesn't mean anything. Kendrick Perkins dominated Dwight Howard when he defended him, but that doesn't mean Perkins is the better player, he just matches up better against him.

Agreed. That's a bad way to look at things. Perk held Dwight in check big time, but he might not even make this list.