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DenButsu
07-27-2009, 09:24 PM
As most of you probably know, there's a bill being pushed (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iM28AEdTs_tNGclSPCFydGH-TcnwD99KDPTO5) that ostensibly "just" requires presidential candidates to supply a birth certificate copy when they run - but is actually a fairly thinly veiled (when veiled at all) attack on Obama's legitimacy as President on the accusation that he was born in Kenya and not the U.S. Now, in a counter move which is pretty much designed to force members of Congress to take sides rather than sticking to a safe middle ground (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25444_Page2.html#ixzz0MSrigmaX), a Democratic representative in the House has put forward a non-binding resolution (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/house-dem-putting-gopers-on-the-spot-by-introducing-measure-describing-hawaii-as-obamas-birthplace/) for recognizing Hawaii as Obama's birthplace. So it looks like the stage is set for this (in my opinion totally bogus, contrived, manufactured) "controversy" to be battled out for some time to come, including the media sideshow of Chris Matthews taking on the Birthers and Lou Dobbs carrying their water.


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Anyways, all of this leads up to me wanting to post these blog entries from Josh Marshall, because I think he's got this one spot on. (And let's just get this out of the way ahead of time: Yes, he's a blogger, and yes it's a liberal blog -- and no, I'm not presenting this as NEWS, I'm presenting it as what it is: opinion pieces which I happen to strongly agree with. So everybody just calm down, stay on topic, and disagree with the opinions themselves rather than the source. Please.)


That Simple
07.27.09 -- 10:49AM
By Josh Marshall

Others have said this. But the best way to understand the 'birther' craze is as a proxy for people who don't want to accept a black man with a Arabic-derived first name as President of the United States. Really as simple as that.

Little wonder that it pulls the Inhofes of Capitol Hill (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/inhofe-the-birthers-have-a-point-and-i-dont-discourage-it.php) out of the caves.TPM (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/07/that_simple.php)



Sorry to State the Obvious, But ...
07.26.09 -- 10:17PM
By Josh Marshall

For all the obvious reasons, I hesitate to even enter this discussion. But (famous last words) I can't help myself.

As you know, high on the list of current right-wing conspiracy theorizing (and sort of a stalking horse for underlying beliefs that President Obama's race and name make him rather less than fully American) is the claim that President Obama wasn't really born in Hawaii but was rather born abroad. And because of this, we're led to believe, he's ineligible to serve as president and therefore actually is not, as we speak, president.

Now, I don't want to get into all the claptrap about the birth certificate. Because the whole story is just unadulterated, raw nonsense. What I do want to figure out, however, is a question that's been rattling around my head for something like a year now. I have never seen any serious argument that the child of an American citizen, even if born abroad, isn't him or herself a natural born American citizen. Yes, it's now and again been raised as a topic with a wrinkle of ambiguity in the law (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html); but the issue has never been that people actually believe such children aren't 'natural born', only that it's a phrase that was never expressly defined and there's never been an opportunity to have a court review it since there's never been a case with the relevant set of facts.

But consider:

If my son Sam had been born while my wife and I were visiting Canada or Egypt, would he be ineligible to serve as president? Would have to apply for him to become a citizen? To have him naturalized? Clearly, not. Everyone agrees he's automatically a citizen. To indulge this nonsense you have to believe there are two categories of citizen -- one that is born a citizen (abroad) but not 'natural born' and another that is born a citizen (in the USA) and is 'natural born.'

How about US military families serving in Europe or South Korea? Are their children ineligible to serve as president? And wouldn't that be a tad rough on military families if it were true? Remember, this question came up during the last election since Sen. McCain was actually born in the Panama Canal Zone.

As far as I can tell, beside being transparently bogus on its face as to the facts (where President Obama was born) it is irrelevant on the law and the constitution since no one seems to question that his mother was an American citizen at the time of his birth.

Like I said, I know I probably shouldn't be feeding the wingnuts, even raising the issue. But can't they at least come up with a conspiracy theory that would have some practical import if it were actually true?

Late Update: Do I think any of this has any practical import? No, not at all. It's just been driving me crazy that in the context of talking about these 'birther' whackjobs, a lot of people are somehow assuming or taking it for granted that a child born to American citizens abroad would not be eligible to serve as president.

Later Update: This appears to be the lacunae the birthers hang their hat on (from the State Department website (http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html) ...)


Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.

Their thinking seems to be that since Obama's mother was just shy of her 19th birthday at the time of his birth, she couldn't meet the "five after the age of fourteen" requirement, thus necessitating rushing home to get the phony certification of stateside birth to make the eventual run for president possible.TPM (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/07/for_all_the_obvious_reasons.php)



Background
07.27.09 -- 10:35AM
By Josh Marshall

As you can imagine, we're getting lots of emails on the 'birther' question this morning. But I thought I would add one point to the issue of what 'natural born' means. Most of the people discussing this are lawyers. And overwhelmingly they seem to come down against the predominantly racist 'birther' contingent. But lawyers aren't the only ones who have some professional claim to the question. As a trained historian whose expertise is in this period of our history (yes, I was trained for something beside being a blogger), the debate strikes me as nonsense. I have seen no evidence that John Jay's phrasing 'natural born' is anything but his way of distinguishing citizens by birth from citizens by naturalization, which fits the logic of the constitutional provision. So the analytical question of the 'meaning' of the phrase is a bunch of over-determined nonsense. It doesn't 'mean' anything but that. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please let me know.TPM (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/07/background_1.php)


The emphasis in that final post is mine.

I'll admit to having a somewhat personal stake in the matter. My wife and I don't have any kids. But let's say we did. And for whatever reason(s), we decided that it would be best for the baby to be born here in Japan, but to soon thereafter head to the States and raise the kid there. I'm a native-born U.S. citizen (born in Colorado Springs, CO.), with a Japanese wife, and we'd be raising our child from, say the age of 3 months all the way through high school in the United States. In every possible meaningful sense imaginable, that kid would be just as American as every single one of her/his classmates and peers, and there's not a damn thing that would make sense about her/his being disqualified from running for president. There would be nothing about my kid's background that would conflict with the official definition: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." My kid would be "natural born": born to me, a citizen.

So I think the point Marshall is making that really resonates with me here is that even if Obama was born in Kenya (which he wasn't), the stance of the birthers would be completely nonsensical and ridiculous. And that leaves little possibility for conclusions other than that the real impetus behind the birther movement is just that they can't cope with the fact that yeah, Barack Hussain Obama is our legitimately elected President.

dbroncos78087
07-27-2009, 10:08 PM
I find it hard to believe based on the guy i saw on Hardball a few weeks ago that there is no real means to enforce the limits on the president (35 y/o, 14 year in the country, and natural born). So as far as i can tell these guys are just appealing to the very powerful fringe of their party.

gcoll
07-27-2009, 10:30 PM
From the blog you posted:


Others have said this. But the best way to understand the 'birther' craze is as a proxy for people who don't want to accept a black man with a Arabic-derived first name as President of the United States. Really as simple as that.
I don't think it's as simple as that at all.

When people oppose someone politically, or dislike them....they perpetuate nonsense because it fits their world view. In 2000 you saw this from the left. People claiming Bush stole the election, that it was fixed, "not my president" all that bull ****. You saw it just recently with the Franken election. People don't have proof of any wrongdoing but they just assert it, because of their dislike of the politician.

You saw it on this very forum with PHX-SOXFAN, when he presented fake Sarah Palin SAT scores (which was an internet hoax) as part of his proof that she was dumb.

It's confirmation bias.

They dislike President Obama, so they are more willing to believe bull **** about him.

I don't deny that there is racism amidst the birther movement. Just as there is anti-semitism amongst many other conspiracy theorist groups.

But I just think it's bad thinking to attribute any attack on Obama, as motivated by race.

SmthBluCitrus
07-27-2009, 11:27 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of just ignoring birthers and allowing them to continue their inane rhetoric. They're typically my political "enemies" (to use a term loosely). So, the more crackpot and oddball they appear, the better it suits me. Yes, yes, yes ... I'm mostly partisan. Get over it.

That's not to say that there aren't birthers that are a part of the Democratic Party, because there are. There are a number of former Hillary supporters (and even some Edwards and Kucinich supporters -- yes, Kucinich still has supporters) that don't believe that Obama is a legitimate POTUS because of his "questionable" citizen status.

I loved Jon Stewart's piece on TDS the other night (the Lou Dobbs rant). I stopped watching his show regularly a couple years ago, but I thought it was spot on the other night.

DenButsu
07-27-2009, 11:33 PM
But I just think it's bad thinking to attribute any attack on Obama, as motivated by race.

I would absolutely agree with that. But at the same time I do think Obama's race and Muslim name are pretty clearly two factors that are among the reasons why some people wish not to recognize his legitimacy. And because those people are out there looking for something to cling to to legitimize their world view (as you put it, correctly, I think), it's pretty damn irresponsible for people like Representatives and Senators and Lou (& other influential media figures) to essentially validate their bigotry by lending credence to and perpetuating the birther myth. Liz Cheney's refusal to acknowledge that Obama was born in the U.S. is a classic example. She doesn't want to get pinned down as "being a birther", but she wants to keep fanning the flames just the same.

DenButsu
07-27-2009, 11:35 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of just ignoring birthers and allowing them to continue their inane rhetoric. They're typically my political "enemies" (to use a term loosely). So, the more crackpot and oddball they appear, the better it suits me. Yes, yes, yes ... I'm mostly partisan. Get over it.

That's not to say that there aren't birthers that are a part of the Democratic Party, because there are. There are a number of former Hillary supporters (and even some Edwards and Kucinich supporters -- yes, Kucinich still has supporters) that don't believe that Obama is a legitimate POTUS because of his "questionable" citizen status.

I loved Jon Stewart's piece on TDS the other night (the Lou Dobbs rant). I stopped watching his show regularly a couple years ago, but I thought it was spot on the other night.

My main problem with promoting and allowing the idea that the President is not legitimately in power among groups that are sometimes cross-pollinated with racially fueled hate is that someone might try to do something about it.

SmthBluCitrus
07-27-2009, 11:44 PM
My main problem with promoting and allowing the idea that the President is not legitimately in power among groups that are sometimes cross-pollinated with racially fueled hate is that someone might try to do something about it.

Sure, that's a distinct possibility. The same as the "pals around with terrorists" movement during the election had the potential to ignite into something more.

I'm not sure if you mean that they'd "try to do something about it" by taking a shot at Obama himself or if you mean by fueling into pre-existing racial angst and do something against the general populace. The latter of which I'd personally be more worried about because, honestly, I absolutely believe that Obama is incredibly well protected.

dbroncos78087
07-27-2009, 11:44 PM
Well i dont know if John McCain would be a legitimate president.

IndyFan
07-27-2009, 11:49 PM
saw this on yahoo. it is an op-ed piece by Daniel Libit, Lisa Lerer. it poses the birther issue as a problem for GOP congressmen & senators if they don't act on it.


When lawmakers return home for recess in August, they can expect to hear tough questions from constituents on the economy, health care and government spending.

But Republicans are preparing for something else: the birthers.

As GOP Rep. Mike Castle learned the hard way back home in Delaware this month, there’s no easy way to deal with the small but vocal crowd of right-wing activists who refuse to believe that President Barack Obama was born in the United States.

At a town hall meeting in Georgetown, a woman demanded to know why Castle and his colleagues were “ignoring” questions about Obama’s birth certificate — questions that have been put to rest repeatedly by state officials in Hawaii, where the birth certificate and all other credible evidence show that Obama was born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961.

When Castle countered that Obama is, in fact, “a citizen of the United States,” the crowd erupted in boos, the woman seized control of the gathering and led a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. The video went viral; by Sunday, it had been viewed on YouTube more than half a million times.

And birthers say members should expect more of the same in the coming weeks.

“Absolutely,” says California resident Orly Taitz, the Russian-born attorney/dentist who has become a kind of ringleader for the movement. “It is a very important issue, one that politicians should have taken up a long time ago.”

Moments after speaking with POLITICO Saturday, Taitz posted a call to arms on her blog:

“I believe it is a serious concern and I hope that each and every decent American comes to town hall meetings with a video camera and demands action,” she wrote.

Having seen his colleague Castle come under attack, Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.) is taking no chances.

“Before I got back to Michigan before the break, we’ll go through it, so that we’re versed in it,” Hoekstra said recently. “Just like anything else, if you see a hot issue ... it’s sort of like, ‘Let me go take a look at this and see what the status is.’”

Hoekstra believes there’s no “compelling case” questioning Obama’s origins. But after talking to Castle about his town hall, he knows that he’d better be ready with an answer.

The trick: What do you say?

Of the various approaches a put-on-the-spot pol can take, each carries its own risk of alienating constituents. Pick up a pitchfork in the cause of this conspiracy theory, and you risk damaging your reputation in the mainstream while aligning yourself with a movement some regard as having racist undertones.

Rep. John Campbell (R-Calif.), co-sponsor of legislation that would force candidates to show their birth certificates, was widely mocked after he told MSNBC’s Chris Matthews that Obama is a U.S. citizen — “as far as I know.”

However, members who decide to challenge the conspiracy theory, as Castle did mildly, risk ticking off a shrill minority who can upend their events and then post the video on the Web.

And those who try to split the difference may find themselves getting doubly burned.

At a Wyoming town hall in April, birthers jumped on freshman Republican Rep. Cynthia Lummis.

“I’m not questioning your concern,” Lummis told the crowd, according to the Wyoming Eagle Tribune. “I am questioning whether there is credible evidence.”

The congresswoman ended up asking for anyone who had “evidence” to send it to her.

At a walk-in meeting in Sen. Tom Coburn’s Washington office, birthers gave the Oklahoma Republican’s chief of staff nine pages of documentation in support of their claims. The group later billed the meeting a success on one of Taitz’s blogs.

But when asked about the meeting, Coburn spokesman Don Tatro said that the office was simply trying to be “polite” and that “it is possible to mistake politeness for agreement.”

According to his office, Colorado Republican Rep. Doug Lamborn has received 33 inquiries about Obama’s origins, with 10 coming in over the past week.

So far, Hoekstra hasn’t faced any such questions.

“When you’re in a state with 15.2 percent unemployment,” he said, “most people have other things on their mind than this.”

But as if to illustrate the touchiness of the subject, Hoekstra quickly added: “Not that this isn’t important.”

Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) has also tried to find the elusive middle ground.

"They have a point," he said of the birthers last week. "I don't discourage it. ... But I'm going to pursue defeating [Obama] on things that I think are very destructive to America."

Inhofe put out a statement Monday clarifying his comment:

"The point that they make is the Constitutional mandate that the U.S. president be a natural born citizen, and the White House has not done a very good job of dispelling the concerns of these citizens," he said. "My focus is on issues where I can make a difference to stop the liberal agenda being pushed by President Obama."

Out-party politicians have long had to deal with conspiracy theorists on their side — the people who think that the Clintons killed Vince Foster or that the Bush administration helped orchestrate the Sept. 11 attacks.

“Twenty-five percent of my people believe the Pentagon and Rumsfeld were responsible for taking the twin towers down,” said Rep. Collin Peterson, a Democrat who represents a conservative Republican district in Minnesota. “That’s why I don’t do town meetings.”

But the birther phenomenon may present a bigger challenge — a potent blend of race and politics, fueled by conservative TV and radio pundits, and played out in a day when all that stands between a town hall meeting and Web omnipresence is a $100 flip cam.

Republican pollster Whit Ayers says that a member confronted with birther questions should immediately pivot the conversation back to big issues.

“You simply indicate that in a country where our fiscal policy is driving us toward bankruptcy, where we are wrestling with major issues of health care reform and fighting two wars for our safety, you don’t have time to deal with wild conspiracy theories,” he says.

That’s the approach House Republican Conference Chairman Mike Pence of Indiana takes.

“On that issue, I’m pretty distinctive that the president is from Hawaii,” he said. “I just don’t know where he’s coming from on health care.”

Such a response might satisfy many, or even most, but Taitz says that until Obama is removed from office, America’s other problems cannot be addressed. The fact that a few members of Congress have taken up her cause, with 10 Republicans signing onto Floria Republican Rep. Bill Posey’s legislation to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971, has only encouraged her to buckle down in the fight.

As Taitz sees it, Campbell, who represents her congressional district in Southern California, was moved to co-sponsor the “Birthers’ bill” for fear of people like her.

Campbell spokesperson Muffy Lewis flatly denied that being the case, saying the issue of Obama’s birth certificate is a low priority in the congressman’s district. Plus, Campbell has stressed that the bill would apply only to future candidates — and is really just about avoiding these kinds of controversies in the future.

“It really wasn’t as much about constituents as it was his own principles,” said Lewis. “He thought it was a common-sense bill. Castle had a major issue [in his district], but it hasn’t been much of an issue in ours.”

But Taitz said that lawmakers everywhere should be prepared to “resign or be removed” if they “do not have the guts to stand for the Constitution and this country.”

Asked whether Republican lawmakers should be “afraid” of the birthers, Taitz said: “I wouldn’t say the word ‘afraid.’ I think they should be willing to resign or be removed. That is what they should do. ... Resign if you do not have the guts to stand for the Constitution of this country.”

Taitz has made nine trips around the country to rally support for her cause. In March, she traveled to Washington to personally hand out packets of documents to senators in the Hart Senate Office Building. Additionally, she says she has sent documents by certified mail to each of the members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, arguing that Obama is “totally illegitimate to be president.”

While the movement could be “politically threatening for particular Republicans,” Taitz says that the GOP as a whole has a chance to gain from it if it takes the right course of action.



link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090727/pl_politico/25444_1)

:)

ari1013
07-28-2009, 12:55 AM
I wonder if they're going to start having "birth parties"

gcoll
07-28-2009, 02:34 AM
I would absolutely agree with that. But at the same time I do think Obama's race and Muslim name are pretty clearly two factors that are among the reasons why some people wish not to recognize his legitimacy. And because those people are out there looking for something to cling to to legitimize their world view (as you put it, correctly, I think), it's pretty damn irresponsible for people like Representatives and Senators and Lou (& other influential media figures) to essentially validate their bigotry by lending credence to and perpetuating the birther myth. Liz Cheney's refusal to acknowledge that Obama was born in the U.S. is a classic example. She doesn't want to get pinned down as "being a birther", but she wants to keep fanning the flames just the same.
I would agree with that sentiment.

Just as an FYI though, there were John Mccain birthers before there were Obama birthers.

ari1013
07-28-2009, 09:46 AM
Yeah I was just thinking about the Ron-Paulians who were questioning McCain's right to run.

These people are all nuts.

SmthBluCitrus
07-28-2009, 10:40 AM
Gibbs: Obama Will Never Satisfy The 'Birthers'

President Obama will never satisfy the conspiracy theorists who don't believe he is a citizen of the United States, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said on Monday, "because for 15 dollars you can get an Internet address and say whatever you want."

In the most impassioned part of his daily press briefing, Gibbs insisted that there was no way to put the so-called "birther" issue to rest.

"The God-honest truth is no," he said. "And I almost hate to indulge in such an august setting as the White House briefing room, and I mean this seriously, discussing the made up, fictional, nonsense of whether or not the president was born in this country. A year and a half ago I asked that the birth certificate be put on the Internet because lord knows if you have a birth certificate and put it on the Internet, what else could be the story?"

"Nothing will assuage them," the press secretary added. "But there are 10,000 more important issues for people in this country to discuss."

"Like violations of the constitution," longtime White House correspondent Helen Thomas interjected. Gibbs ignored her.

HuffPo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/27/gibbs-obama-will-never-sa_n_245632.html)

Helen Thomas is huh-lair-e-us.

SmthBluCitrus
07-28-2009, 11:21 AM
Lead Birther Bill Sponsor Votes To Recognize Hawaii As Obama's Birthplace

The House resolution to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Hawaiian statehood -- which included language recognizing the state as President Obama's birthplace, in a none-too-subtle jab at the Birthers -- passed this evening by a 378-0 vote.

Among the Yes votes: Rep. Bill Posey (R-FL), the lead sponsor of the infamous "Birther Bill" to require presidential candidates to present their birth certificates, and who had previously said he wouldn't "swear on a stack of Bibles" that Obama is a natural-born American citizen. Several other co-sponsors of the Birther Bill also voted yes: Marsha Blackburn (R-TN), Dan Burton (R-IN), John Culberson (R-TX), Bob Goodlatte (R-VA), Randy Neugebauer (R-TX), and Ted Poe (R-TX).

On a side note, some suspicions were raised against Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) for blocking the passage of the resolution by voice vote earlier today, noting the absence of a quorum. However, as Salon reported, Bachmann's move was an entirely normal procedural motion to pave the way for a roll call vote later on -- indeed, she'd made similar motions today on other non-controversial resolutions -- and she in fact voted for the resolution when the vote was held.

I will also say as a long-time Bachmannologist that I've never seen any probable cause to suspect her of Birtherism. She's certainly said a lot of interesting stuff against Obama, but she hasn't trodden on this particular ground.

TPMDC (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/lead-birther-bill-sponsor-votes-to-recognize-hawaii-as-obamas-birthplace.php)

dbroncos78087
07-28-2009, 11:31 AM
Dems should have completely re-written the bill and said "lalalalalalalala" for 5000 pages.

SmthBluCitrus
07-28-2009, 11:33 AM
Dems should have completely re-written the bill and said "lalalalalalalala" for 5000 pages.

Eh - then there would've been accusations that "nobody read the bill" or that a 3,000 page amendment was inserted at the last hour or at five in the morning.

dbroncos78087
07-28-2009, 11:35 AM
Eh - then there would've been accusations that "nobody read the bill" or that a 3,000 page amendment was inserted at the last hour or at five in the morning.

Damn! You caught on to my plan. I would have made being a republican illegal on page 2950.

gcoll
07-29-2009, 12:11 AM
Eh - then there would've been accusations that "nobody read the bill" or that a 3,000 page amendment was inserted at the last hour or at five in the morning.

I read something the other day from a 2004 interview with Obama, where he criticized Bush for rushing through legislation without giving people time to read it.

Kind of funny.

lamar2006
07-29-2009, 04:07 AM
I am ashame these birthers call themselves patriots. what a disgrace these small portions of the population are to america. seriously do they even have a brain???

gcoll
07-29-2009, 08:59 AM
As a side note though. The "natural born citizen" stuff has never made all that much sense to me.

People don't control where they're born. To invalidate someone to serve as president, for reasons completely beyond their control seems a bit absurd to me. For example my father was born in another country, but has been in the US for practically all his life. Grew up here...etc. Why shouldn't he be allowed to be president.

A buddy of mine, who is in the army, was originally born in Mexico. He's done a couple tours in Iraq. He's ineligible to be president. WTF? The guy is willing to put his life on the line for the country, yet he can't be president. Why?

ari1013
07-29-2009, 09:04 AM
As a side note though. The "natural born citizen" stuff has never made all that much sense to me.

People don't control where they're born. To invalidate someone to serve as president, for reasons completely beyond their control seems a bit absurd to me. For example my father was born in another country, but has been in the US for practically all his life. Grew up here...etc. Why shouldn't he be allowed to be president.

A buddy of mine, who is in the army, was originally born in Mexico. He's done a couple tours in Iraq. He's ineligible to be president. WTF? The guy is willing to put his life on the line for the country, yet he can't be president. Why?
Because the founding fathers hated Alexander Hamilton.

DenButsu
07-29-2009, 12:43 PM
As a side note though. The "natural born citizen" stuff has never made all that much sense to me.

People don't control where they're born. To invalidate someone to serve as president, for reasons completely beyond their control seems a bit absurd to me. For example my father was born in another country, but has been in the US for practically all his life. Grew up here...etc. Why shouldn't he be allowed to be president.

A buddy of mine, who is in the army, was originally born in Mexico. He's done a couple tours in Iraq. He's ineligible to be president. WTF? The guy is willing to put his life on the line for the country, yet he can't be president. Why?

This post actually reflects (and actually takes further) the main point I was trying to make in the top post, which was that it should be very possible for people who were born outside U.S. borders to be considered "natural born" citizens under certain circumstances (at least one citizen parent, spent like the last 12-13 years of their growing up in the States, etc.). Which is to say, in Obama's case, that who gives a crap whether he was born in Kenya or Hawaii? How would either scenario make him "more" or "less" American in any meaningful sense?

ari1013
07-29-2009, 01:24 PM
Or me? I was born a US citizen, just not in this country. My mother was a 2nd generation American born in Virginia. I'm a little over a week away from my 27th year in the US. Do I count?

DenButsu
07-29-2009, 01:27 PM
You sure as hell should.

ari1013
07-31-2009, 02:12 PM
Great chart from Andrew Sullivan:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2011571592b38970c-500wi
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/where-the-birthers-are.html
I'd have to agree with his assessment that this proves the GOP is a purely-Southern party right now.

cabernetluver
07-31-2009, 02:40 PM
Great chart from Andrew Sullivan:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2011571592b38970c-500wi
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/where-the-birthers-are.html
I'd have to agree with his assessment that this proves the GOP is a purely-Southern party right now.

I wonder if BMD speaks with a drawl.

QuietWyatt
07-31-2009, 11:56 PM
I'm drinking cab right now, so maybe I'm feeling more anti-right more than usual.

Perhaps the South is more ignorant on political issues (such as Obama's background), therefore there's more Republicans in the south....:shrug:

IndyFan
08-01-2009, 08:45 AM
I'm drinking cab right now, so maybe I'm feeling more anti-right more than usual.

Perhaps the South is more ignorant on political issues (such as Obama's background), therefore there's more Republicans in the south....:shrug:

the south is a wonderful/terrible place. with a culture all its own. difficult to understand unless you lived there. willfully ignorant about many things. and all to eager to cling to the past. fearful of the change the future brings. easy to see why the GOP is so strong there.

:)

Cadarn
08-01-2009, 12:33 PM
This post actually reflects (and actually takes further) the main point I was trying to make in the top post, which was that it should be very possible for people who were born outside U.S. borders to be considered "natural born" citizens under certain circumstances (at least one citizen parent, spent like the last 12-13 years of their growing up in the States, etc.). Which is to say, in Obama's case, that who gives a crap whether he was born in Kenya or Hawaii? How would either scenario make him "more" or "less" American in any meaningful sense?

I actually agree, any citizen should be eligible.

Cadarn
08-01-2009, 12:44 PM
If I have to provide a birth certificate for an endless list of services or occupations, why shouldn't politicians?
If obama were said to be born in mexico rather than kenya, we'd be hearing a lot different from some of you.

With that said, as long as your a citizen you should be able to run for any office. Whether your born in kansas or cambodia.

IndyFan
08-01-2009, 01:12 PM
If I have to provide a birth certificate for an endless list of services or occupations, why shouldn't politicians?
If obama were said to be born in mexico rather than kenya, we'd be hearing a lot different from some of you.

With that said, as long as your a citizen you should be able to run for any office. Whether your born in kansas or cambodia.

or especially austria

:eyebrow:

crzysportsfan33
08-01-2009, 06:26 PM
I don't neccessarily agree with the the natural born citizen law, but that is beside the point. Its the law and if Obama wasn't born in Kenya under the law he shouldn't be president. I personal believed at first this whole thing was just a couple of rumors. However it is very suspicious why Obama has just released his birht certificate. Taht would put everything to rest. He is almost acting like he has somethign to hide which has made the whole controversy much much bigger. Also this isn't the only document he hasn't released. Obama still hasn't released his medical records. All we heard during the election was that we need to see McCain's medical records because he is so old he might have something wrong with him. And to be honest that was a fair arguement, but the same thing should have and still should go for Obama. He hasn't released any of his transcripts from Columbia or Harvard. Why is this politician exempt from something else every other politician is subjected for. Can you say double standard. It seems like Obama is hiding something. If he isn't he should release all of his records like everybody else. It just doesn't make sense for a man who has nothing to hide to not release records and documents everyother politician does.

IndyFan
08-01-2009, 09:53 PM
csf33,

you need to re-read your post. it just doesn't make any sense. you are saying that he has something to hide because he released his birth certificate. then half dozen sentences later you say he has something to hide because he hasn't released his 'records'.

sounds like a 'have you stopped beating your wife arguement'.

:eyebrow:

dbroncos78087
08-01-2009, 10:04 PM
Obama released his medical records, but i believe it was short and concise (like 100 pages total or something) as opposed to McCain's which was a lot longer (1500 pages according to CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/05/22/mccain.records/index.html)).

lamar2006
08-01-2009, 10:15 PM
I don't neccessarily agree with the the natural born citizen law, but that is beside the point. Its the law and if Obama wasn't born in Kenya under the law he shouldn't be president. I personal believed at first this whole thing was just a couple of rumors. However it is very suspicious why Obama has just released his birht certificate. Taht would put everything to rest. He is almost acting like he has somethign to hide which has made the whole controversy much much bigger. Also this isn't the only document he hasn't released. Obama still hasn't released his medical records. All we heard during the election was that we need to see McCain's medical records because he is so old he might have something wrong with him. And to be honest that was a fair arguement, but the same thing should have and still should go for Obama. He hasn't released any of his transcripts from Columbia or Harvard. Why is this politician exempt from something else every other politician is subjected for. Can you say double standard. It seems like Obama is hiding something. If he isn't he should release all of his records like everybody else. It just doesn't make sense for a man who has nothing to hide to not release records and documents everyother politician does.

he did release his birth certificate since last years primaries. maybe if you watched something other than fixed news you would know that. your telling me he was able to fooled the FBI and all our other intelligence agencies since they do complete background checks just to hold a federal office. this is nothing other than some racist bigots from the south who cant accept a black man being president with an arabic middle name. and dont tell this isnt about race. we all know how the SOUTH really feels. so right wing nutjobs stop *****ing because Obama will be president for the next 8 years. we put up with Georgie who has 10% the itellectual capacity of this president I am certain he will be re-elected.

gcoll
08-02-2009, 02:21 AM
and dont tell this isnt about race. we all know how the SOUTH really feels.
Yeah I know. Southerners like to stereotype entire groups of people.

dbroncos78087
08-02-2009, 02:31 AM
Yeah I know. Southerners like to stereotype entire groups of people.

I see what you did there...you are clever.

Seppuku
08-02-2009, 12:23 PM
How fact-free claims about Obama's citizenship gained mainstream currency
By STEVEN THOMMA - McClatchy Newspapers

http://www.idahostatesman.com/nationalpolitics/story/853399.html


Marked by accusations and backstabbing, it's the story of how a small but intense movement called "birthers" rose from a handful of people prone to seeing conspiracies, aided by the Internet, magnified without evidence by eager radio and cable TV hosts, and eventually ratified by a small group of Republican politicians working to keep the story alive on the floors of Congress and the campaign trails of the Midwest.

It's a powerful story about what experts call political paranoia over a new face in a time of anxiety and rapid change - the sort of viral message that can take hold among a sliver of the populace that's ready to believe that their new president is a fraud, and just as ready to angrily dismiss anyone who disagrees with them as part of the conspiracy.


"It's a fascinating phenomenon," said Jerrold Post, director of the political psychology program at George Washington University's Elliott School of International Affairs and author of the recent book "Political Paranoia."

"They are not searching for the truth. They are searching for anything that confirms their fixed idea, their malevolent idea. ... It doesn't soothe people to tell them it's not legitimate. That makes them angry."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To quote Jon Stewart loosely: Get over it Republicans. You lost. It's called democracy. When you lose the other guy is going to do things that you disagree with. It's going to taste like a **** taco.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-april-7-2009/baracknophobia---obey

gcoll
08-02-2009, 06:27 PM
They are not searching for the truth. They are searching for anything that confirms their fixed idea, their malevolent idea

Yup. Exactly what I said.

crzysportsfan33
08-02-2009, 07:21 PM
he did release his birth certificate since last years primaries. maybe if you watched something other than fixed news you would know that. your telling me he was able to fooled the FBI and all our other intelligence agencies since they do complete background checks just to hold a federal office. this is nothing other than some racist bigots from the south who cant accept a black man being president with an arabic middle name. and dont tell this isnt about race. we all know how the SOUTH really feels. so right wing nutjobs stop *****ing because Obama will be president for the next 8 years. we put up with Georgie who has 10% the itellectual capacity of this president I am certain he will be re-elected.

First off the birth certificate he released during the campaign was clearly not his true one. It is missing some the basic things all birth certificates in Hawaii need like the embossed seal and register signature, the color shade is different, there's no crease from being folded and mailed, and there is a date stamp bleeding through the document saying, “June 2007.” Im just saying he should release some more of his records to clear the air.

Also don't go calling me a racist if thats what you were trying to do. You don't know me and to make a statement like that is awful. There are tons of racists in this country you are right about that, but there are also tons of anti-semetics and sexists. Also the chairman of the RNC, Michael Steele is African American as well who most conservatives support have great respect for. I don't like Obama because I think he is bad for the country. I think he is bad for the country because his stimulus bill hasn't worked at all and don't tell me about the market going up. That isn't because of the stimulus. Unemployment was suppossed to go down but the opposite has happened. Bottomline I don't like him because of his policies stop trying to make this a racial thing.

utahjazzno12fan
08-02-2009, 09:53 PM
Here is a story and a picture of what is supposed to be Obama's Kenyan Certificate of Birth. Just saw it on the internet... Not saying it is real, but it goes with the conversation.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764

DenButsu
08-03-2009, 12:42 AM
Not saying it is real, but it goes with the conversation.

Yeah, right. :eyebrow:

Seppuku
08-03-2009, 12:50 AM
Here is a story and a picture of what is supposed to be Obama's Kenyan Certificate of Birth. Just saw it on the internet... Not saying it is real, but it goes with the conversation.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764

Interesting that this article you have linked has misrepresented legal claims as described in the link prior, trying to indicate with false logic that winning a case which was not actually won or even tried proves a point that the original case was not based on.

I also liked that the site was designed to drive sales for the lawyer's conspiracy theory DVD. The link turns out to be a big ad to sell something to birthers, not a real news story or source.

ari1013
08-03-2009, 08:28 AM
If I have to provide a birth certificate for an endless list of services or occupations, why shouldn't politicians?
If obama were said to be born in mexico rather than kenya, we'd be hearing a lot different from some of you.

With that said, as long as your a citizen you should be able to run for any office. Whether your born in kansas or cambodia.
But he did.

He showed it.

It's available to see online.

It's right there for you to look at whenever you want.

A real freaking birth certificate.

ari1013
08-03-2009, 08:29 AM
I don't neccessarily agree with the the natural born citizen law, but that is beside the point. Its the law and if Obama wasn't born in Kenya under the law he shouldn't be president. I personal believed at first this whole thing was just a couple of rumors. However it is very suspicious why Obama has just released his birht certificate. Taht would put everything to rest. He is almost acting like he has somethign to hide which has made the whole controversy much much bigger. Also this isn't the only document he hasn't released. Obama still hasn't released his medical records. All we heard during the election was that we need to see McCain's medical records because he is so old he might have something wrong with him. And to be honest that was a fair arguement, but the same thing should have and still should go for Obama. He hasn't released any of his transcripts from Columbia or Harvard. Why is this politician exempt from something else every other politician is subjected for. Can you say double standard. It seems like Obama is hiding something. If he isn't he should release all of his records like everybody else. It just doesn't make sense for a man who has nothing to hide to not release records and documents everyother politician does.
:laugh:

Good one!

ari1013
08-03-2009, 08:30 AM
First off the birth certificate he released during the campaign was clearly not his true one. It is missing some the basic things all birth certificates in Hawaii need like the embossed seal and register signature, the color shade is different, there's no crease from being folded and mailed, and there is a date stamp bleeding through the document saying, “June 2007.” Im just saying he should release some more of his records to clear the air.

Also don't go calling me a racist if thats what you were trying to do. You don't know me and to make a statement like that is awful. There are tons of racists in this country you are right about that, but there are also tons of anti-semetics and sexists. Also the chairman of the RNC, Michael Steele is African American as well who most conservatives support have great respect for. I don't like Obama because I think he is bad for the country. I think he is bad for the country because his stimulus bill hasn't worked at all and don't tell me about the market going up. That isn't because of the stimulus. Unemployment was suppossed to go down but the opposite has happened. Bottomline I don't like him because of his policies stop trying to make this a racial thing.
Someone's on fire today!

:laugh:

Keep the jokes coming buddy!

ari1013
08-03-2009, 08:33 AM
Here is a story and a picture of what is supposed to be Obama's Kenyan Certificate of Birth. Just saw it on the internet... Not saying it is real, but it goes with the conversation.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764
Not that WND had any credibility to begin with, but they seemed to overlook something...Kenya was a British colony in 1961. So there's no way in hell Obama's birth certificate would match a modern Kenyan birth certificate.

This one, like most of their ground-breaking coverage, gets a big old FAIL.

ari1013
08-03-2009, 08:34 AM
Interesting that this article you have linked has misrepresented legal claims as described in the link prior, trying to indicate with false logic that winning a case which was not actually won or even tried proves a point that the original case was not based on.

I also liked that the site was designed to drive sales for the lawyer's conspiracy theory DVD. The link turns out to be a big ad to sell something to birthers, not a real news story or source.
It is WND you know. It's not a real news site. It's all about selling crap. Check the other articles. They all have that same format.

IndyFan
08-03-2009, 08:41 AM
Here is a story and a picture of what is supposed to be Obama's Kenyan Certificate of Birth. Just saw it on the internet... Not saying it is real, but it goes with the conversation.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764

i clicked on the link and read the article. i can say it is not real. and i wasted 5 min of my life.

:bang:

SmthBluCitrus
08-03-2009, 09:10 AM
Hold on, hold on, hold on ...

Michael Steele is greatly supported and respected by most conservatives?

ari1013
08-03-2009, 09:11 AM
Hold on, hold on, hold on ...

Michael Steele is greatly supported and respected by most conservatives?
Keep reading. It gets better.

SmthBluCitrus
08-03-2009, 09:23 AM
Keep reading. It gets better.

You're right, I missed the first post. It was much much better.

DenButsu
08-03-2009, 11:24 AM
Hold on, hold on, hold on ...

Michael Steele is greatly supported and respected by most conservatives?

Yeah, that's why they just busted a move on him to strip him of a ton of his spending power (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/rnc-looks-inward-after-months-of-negotiation-2009-07-31.html) as head of the RNCC.

SmthBluCitrus
08-03-2009, 12:00 PM
Den, Den, Den ... it's all about the love, buddy. It's all about the love. That's what you're just not understanding. It's all part of the strategy and it's all just part of the bigger plan. He wants to see how his political enemies react, because that's how he knows what's going on.

dbroncos78087
08-03-2009, 12:05 PM
The real question here is wouldnt Obama be cooler if he had a Mexican accent.

SmthBluCitrus
08-03-2009, 12:11 PM
The real question here is wouldnt Obama be cooler if he had a Mexican accent.

And drank Dos Equis while he hung out with the Most Interesting Man in the World.

IndyFan
08-03-2009, 12:11 PM
The real question here is wouldnt Obama be cooler if he had a Mexican accent.

:no: shame on you :no:

:laugh:

dbroncos78087
08-03-2009, 12:16 PM
And drank Dos Equis while he hung out with the Most Interesting Man in the World.

He would be better company then that elitist Gates and that thug Crowley.

SmthBluCitrus
08-03-2009, 12:32 PM
Well, Ari kind of cleared this up earlier, but ...


Sorry, WorldNetDaily: Kenya wasn't a republic until Dec. 1964

WorldNetDaily and the right-wing fringe are very excited about their scoop that Orly Taitz has "released a copy of what purports to be a Kenyan certification of birth" for President Obama. According to WND, "Taitz told WND that the document came from an anonymous source who doesn't want his name known because 'he's afraid for his life.' " So in order to believe Taitz and WND, one would have to assume that this document was requested 45 years ago, preserved that entire time, withheld through the entire election and transition period, and yet somehow ended up in the hands of someone sympathetic to Orly Taitz.

DailyKos' David Waldman has identified what appears to be an even more glaring problem with WND's latest smoking gun. The document posted by WND purports to have been produced by the "Republic of Kenya" on February 17, 1964. But Kenya didn't even become a republic until December 12, 1964. An article from that day's Washington Post, for example, reported that "Kenya became the newest republic within the British Commonwealth at midnight."

http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/20090803kenya.jpg

Media Matters (aka another branch of the Liberal Media) (http://mediamatters.org/blog/200908030001)

behindmydesk
08-03-2009, 12:49 PM
It is WND you know. It's not a real news site. It's all about selling crap. Check the other articles. They all have that same format.

I was going to ask, do they speak english and write in english in Kenya?



Hold on, hold on, hold on ...

Michael Steele is greatly supported and respected by most conservatives?

I'm sure there is atleast 1 or 2 conservatives that like Steele, I mean i haven't found one but i'm sure there is 1 or 2.

DenButsu
08-03-2009, 01:30 PM
The real question here is wouldnt Obama be cooler if he had a Mexican accent.

Obama's version of that is the 3-point shot.

Nothing but net.

SmthBluCitrus
08-03-2009, 08:53 PM
What If Obama Really Was Born in Kenya?

An Explainer thought experiment.

Despite a congressional resolution affirming President Obama's U.S. birth and a reaffirmation of his birth certificate's authenticity from Hawaiian officials, media outlets continue to air frivolous allegations that the president was born in Kenya, rendering him ineligible for the presidency. Let's pretend, for just a moment, that the birthers had credible evidence that Obama was foreign-born. Then what would happen?

Resignation, impeachment, or nothing. If Obama stood his ground, and Congress stood by him, then the only way to legally remove him from office would be for someone to sue. Problem is, no one would have standing to bring such a lawsuit. To establish standing, a plaintiff must show that he has suffered an injury personal to him, that the defendant caused the injury, and that the court could provide a remedy. That turns out to be an impossible task.

Average citizens could not show a personalized injury because Obama's allegedly illegitimate presidency would impact everyone in roughly the same way. Courts invariably dismiss such claims, like the 1937 case alleging that Justice Hugo Black was ineligible to serve because as a member of Congress he had voted to increase the justices' salaries. Even membership in much smaller aggrieved groups generally doesn't work. The Supreme Court rejected a suit brought by parents of African-American children challenging the IRS's lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws and another by legislators who claimed their voting rights were diluted by the line-item veto. In both cases, the communal nature of the injury precluded standing. Thus the lawsuit of Army Maj. Stefan Cook, who argued that his pending deployment to Afghanistan by an illegitimate president constituted a particularized injury, was doomed to failure. (The case was mooted when the Pentagon canceled his deployment.)

Obama's opponents in the 2008 presidential election can show injury, since their personal presidential ambitions were thwarted. Indeed, Alan Keyes has filed a lawsuit making just that claim. In order to get Obama out of the White House, however, Keyes would have to show that his injury could be redressed by the court. But the most a judge could do would be to remove Obama from office, making Joseph Biden the president. Keyes would be in the same boat he's in now.

Even if someone could establish standing for such a case, the courts might refuse to hear it under a prudential limitation called the political question doctrine. This states that courts will not settle questions that the Constitution clearly assigns to other branches. Because Congress can challenge the president's credentials during the vote-counting process and impeach him at any time, presidential eligibility is a classic political question. (Before the Inauguration, some argued that state courts, which operate under different rules from federal courts, might hear cases challenging the candidates' eligibility to appear on state ballots. This is highly unlikely now that Congress has ratified the election results.)

Of course, Congress could always vote to impeach Obama. In the words of then-Rep. Gerald Ford, R-Mich., during his attempt to impeach Justice William Douglas for questionable financial dealings, "an impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers [it] to be at a given moment in history." Just as the political question doctrine would prevent Orly Taitz from removing Obama from office, it would stop him from challenging his impeachment in court. (Impeachment would not invalidate the actions Obama took while in office.)

Obama is not the first to face these allegations. President Chester Arthur endured years of unsubstantiated rumors that he was born on the wrong side of the Vermont-Canada border. Some opponents questioned Herbert Hoover's eligibility as well. Hoover met the Constitutional requirement of having been a resident within the United States for 14 years, but those years were not consecutive, and the Founding Fathers weren't clear on whether the distinction matters. Neither case made it to court.

Slate (http://www.slate.com/id/2224167/?from=rss)

ari1013
08-03-2009, 09:06 PM
Kenya's a former Brit colony so they speak English. But everything official is in Swahili.

utahjazzno12fan
08-03-2009, 11:16 PM
I have heard that a rumor is moving throughout Washington that says that the reason Obama is not releasing his long form birth certificate and records is because they label him as Caucasian. There is also the thought that he is not even wanting to acknowledge 'crazy talk.'

There is also the thought that this can provide a type of smokescreen so that he could divert attention from other more unpopular issues that he is pushing through. If that is all it is, that would be somewhat smart politically. I mean, if there was a big non-issue that would divert attention from something unpopular you wanted to push through, it might make you unpopular in the short term, but then you could spin it to appear to be a victim of ulterior motives.

There is also the thought that Obama is just ignoring it so as to not give any credibility to the birther movement.

Who knows...?

DenButsu
08-04-2009, 01:42 AM
There is also the thought that he is not even wanting to acknowledge 'crazy talk.'

Yes, there's that.


There is also the thought that Obama is just ignoring it so as to not give any credibility to the birther movement.

Yes, there's that, too.


Who knows...?

Anybody and everybody who actually wants to know the truth. The only people who don't (ahem) "know" Obama was born in Hawaii are those who don't want to believe it and are deliberately turning a blind eye to the blatant ****ing facts that are staring them right in the face if they bother to look with any objectivity whatsoever.

utahjazzno12fan
08-04-2009, 07:00 AM
Anybody and everybody who actually wants to know the truth. The only people who don't (ahem) "know" Obama was born in Hawaii are those who don't want to believe it and are deliberately turning a blind eye to the blatant ****ing facts that are staring them right in the face if they bother to look with any objectivity whatsoever.

Since you obviously are someone who wants to know the truth, since you come back with the veiled f-bomb, you must know exactly why the records are not released, could you tell me if the last two reasons are the only reasons, or is the first reason also part? Or is it just the second? Or is it just the third reason? It seems you are trying to turn my, "Who knows?" into something more than me questioning which reason (none of which have anything to do with a Kenyan birth) is the actual reason, or if there is a combination of the three I gave.

ari1013
08-04-2009, 08:31 AM
what record hasn't been released?

his birth certificate is widely available. his med records are widely available. there are no secrets with any records.

this is worse than those lefty morons calling for bush's military records.

DenButsu
08-04-2009, 11:39 AM
you come back with the veiled f-bomb

Oh, it wasn't veiled. It was right out there in the open. This birther **** is totally ****ing ridiculous. And I will expose it for the fraud it is at every chance I'm given.

Zep
08-04-2009, 12:19 PM
what record hasn't been released?

his birth certificate is widely available. his med records are widely available. there are no secrets with any records.

this is worse than those lefty morons calling for bush's military records.

A friend of mine the other day mentioned via FB status something to the effect of "Lou Dobbs is right", to which I replied with a link to Obama's birth cert. (short form).

His response was "oh yeah, well try and get a passport using that!"

I let it drop, as I feel that anything short of him being present at the birth, holding a camcorder, while a supreme court justice presided over the procedure itself would be deemed insufficient by him.

I understand that there are people who genuinely just disagree with his policies and feel that he is not the best choice for America (I really do), but this birther stuff can get ridiculous. At first it was a demand for a birth certificate, and then when that was released it was "well that's not the right version. If the long form did eventually come out, would anyone expect anything but "it's a fake, photoshop, photoshop, etc." from some people?

PHX-SOXFAN
08-04-2009, 01:49 PM
A friend of mine the other day mentioned via FB status something to the effect of "Lou Dobbs is right", to which I replied with a link to Obama's birth cert. (short form).

His response was "oh yeah, well try and get a passport using that!"

I let it drop, as I feel that anything short of him being present at the birth, holding a camcorder, while a supreme court justice presided over the procedure itself would be deemed insufficient by him.

I understand that there are people who genuinely just disagree with his policies and feel that he is not the best choice for America (I really do), but this birther stuff can get ridiculous. At first it was a demand for a birth certificate, and then when that was released it was "well that's not the right version. If the long form did eventually come out, would anyone expect anything but "it's a fake, photoshop, photoshop, etc." from some people?

all I have is the "short form" birth certificate that works for everything like a passport or driver's license. I've never had to produce it for anything other than those two reasons.

utahjazzno12fan
08-04-2009, 03:48 PM
what record hasn't been released?

his birth certificate is widely available. his med records are widely available. there are no secrets with any records.

this is worse than those lefty morons calling for bush's military records.

The long form certificate... What the birthers are complaining about. I don't know much of a difference, but a real bc has a dr.'s sig. I am not saying that the short one is irrelevant. I mean, it is a state document. It should be legal for showing American birth. Also, I am referring to college records. Those haven't been released. I just wonder what the motives are. I am cynical like House, I guess. Every thing someone does is for a reason... Why wouldn't he release them? Politically, it could be a brilliant move to allow the opposition to set up a straw man for them to beat up while you pursue other agenda items... Then you can show it for what it is (with the long form bc and any other records) and make them really look like idiots. There is some motivation... What is it? I would say it is a political motivation. It is really a gift that the birthers are giving him without knowing it...

PHX-SOXFAN
08-04-2009, 04:56 PM
The long form certificate... What the birthers are complaining about. I don't know much of a difference, but a real bc has a dr.'s sig. I am not saying that the short one is irrelevant. I mean, it is a state document. It should be legal for showing American birth. Also, I am referring to college records. Those haven't been released. I just wonder what the motives are. I am cynical like House, I guess. Every thing someone does is for a reason... Why wouldn't he release them? Politically, it could be a brilliant move to allow the opposition to set up a straw man for them to beat up while you pursue other agenda items... Then you can show it for what it is (with the long form bc and any other records) and make them really look like idiots. There is some motivation... What is it? I would say it is a political motivation. It is really a gift that the birthers are giving him without knowing it...

he graduated in the top 10% of his class at harvard law. you can interpolate a gpa.

I'm all for high school and college transcripts being released in order to run for office. IT would eliminate people like palin being taken seriously by anyone

dbroncos78087
08-04-2009, 05:13 PM
The long form certificate... What the birthers are complaining about. I don't know much of a difference, but a real bc has a dr.'s sig. I am not saying that the short one is irrelevant. I mean, it is a state document. It should be legal for showing American birth. Also, I am referring to college records. Those haven't been released. I just wonder what the motives are. I am cynical like House, I guess. Every thing someone does is for a reason... Why wouldn't he release them? Politically, it could be a brilliant move to allow the opposition to set up a straw man for them to beat up while you pursue other agenda items... Then you can show it for what it is (with the long form bc and any other records) and make them really look like idiots. There is some motivation... What is it? I would say it is a political motivation. It is really a gift that the birthers are giving him without knowing it...

House respected the black guy that ran for president.

Seppuku
08-04-2009, 05:17 PM
The long form certificate... What the birthers are complaining about. I don't know much of a difference, but a real bc has a dr.'s sig. I am not saying that the short one is irrelevant. I mean, it is a state document. It should be legal for showing American birth. Also, I am referring to college records. Those haven't been released. I just wonder what the motives are. I am cynical like House, I guess. Every thing someone does is for a reason... Why wouldn't he release them? Politically, it could be a brilliant move to allow the opposition to set up a straw man for them to beat up while you pursue other agenda items... Then you can show it for what it is (with the long form bc and any other records) and make them really look like idiots. There is some motivation... What is it? I would say it is a political motivation. It is really a gift that the birthers are giving him without knowing it...

This is odd to me. What are your motives? Are you wanting to dispute that he went to Harvard Law School? Are you wanting to say that he was not actually the President of the Harvard Law Review or graduated Magna Cum Laude? Maybe you don't believe that he was a professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago? Where are you trying to go?

DenButsu
08-04-2009, 06:45 PM
This is odd to me. What are your motives? Are you wanting to dispute that he went to Harvard Law School? Are you wanting to say that he was not actually the President of the Harvard Law Review or graduated Magna Cum Laude? Maybe you don't believe that he was a professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago? Where are you trying to go?

His only motive is to disparage Obama using baseless smears rather than solid, factual political arguments.

Seppuku
08-04-2009, 06:55 PM
His only motive is to disparage Obama using baseless smears rather than solid, factual political arguments.

I suspect you are correct as this is what the entire birther movement is about, but wanting personal college records when his performance, studies and teaching credentials are so widely known, it is an odd topic to be questioning or wanting documentation on. I'm wondering what anyone is looking for in that content. I was thinking perhaps we could answer a question by supplying information that is easily obtained and common knowledge for googlers.

DenButsu
08-04-2009, 07:26 PM
Well, as Bill Maher said, we'll show you Obama's birth certificate when you show us Palin's high school transcript.

cabernetluver
08-04-2009, 07:28 PM
Well, as Bill Maher said, we'll show you Obama's birth certificate when you show us Palin's high school transcript.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

SmthBluCitrus
08-04-2009, 07:32 PM
Did I miss something? I don't understand what Palin's transcripts has to do with anything ...

I think the best thing is to just ignore her now regardless. No need to give her "attention" because she's done a good enough job making herself irrelevant.

behindmydesk
08-04-2009, 07:43 PM
Well, as Bill Maher said, we'll show you Obama's birth certificate when you show us Palin's high school transcript.

I don't think a high school transcript is required to be Governor, or heck President.

But hey might as well always interject a baseless bash on Palin when ever possible.

utahjazzno12fan
08-04-2009, 08:40 PM
I am referring to what the birthers want released concerning his records that he entered under... They claim he entered college as a foreign student... Once again, I doubt it but it seems to be smart on his part to draw this out so opponents focus on a non issue rather than other issues.

utahjazzno12fan
08-04-2009, 08:46 PM
LOL... and it gets crazier...

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/08/04/australia_certificate/index.html

Hawkize31
08-04-2009, 08:50 PM
I don't think a high school transcript is required to be Governor, or heck President.

But hey might as well always interject a baseless bash on Palin when ever possible.

Well, I don't condone that action, but its not like this whole movement isn't a baseless bash on Obama. Or the Muslim rumors. Sometimes people fight fire with fire, I'm not saying its right, but when the right side is throwing stones, the left will throw 'em back.

cabernetluver
08-04-2009, 08:58 PM
LOL... and it gets crazier...

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/08/04/australia_certificate/index.html

And that is exactly the point. No matter what the President does, the birthers will continue to come up with malarkey. President Obama is handling this exactly right. He put up his birth certificate. There are birth announcements in the local paper. That should be enough for anyone who does not have another agenda all together.

The whole subject is actually going away. The only reason to continue this would be to find the actual motivation for creating this garbage. I am far more interested in what the real reason behind this screaming is. I think I know. I think all thinking people know.

crzysportsfan33
08-04-2009, 09:39 PM
Well, as Bill Maher said, we'll show you Obama's birth certificate when you show us Palin's high school transcript.

What does Palin remotely have to do with this. She isn't even a Governor anymore. IM sure if you asked she would release all of her transcripts and medical records. How come no medical records from Obama. All I hear about how healthy he is, well that isn't entirely true. He is a smoker which everybody nows isn't good for you. It is a fair request that every other candidate has t odeal with. What makes him different than everybody else that he doesn't have to release his records. Why do you liberals always comeback with Palin. She is irrelevant right now. Do you feel a necessity to continue to go after her because you feel she is a threat. It is just dumb, people will start to turn against you because it is unwarranted. Im not a big Palin supporter and don't want her to get the nomination, but everytime I hear someone go after her for no reason it makes me want to defend her and like her more.

Why want Obama just show the birth certificate so we can move on? How many skeletons have we already seen come out of his closet? Should the possibility of another skeleton be that outrageous especially when his grandmother says she was in the delivery room in Kenya?

cabernetluver
08-04-2009, 09:42 PM
^Example of reason why the President is handling this just right. Nothing on earth will ever satisfy this group.

crzysportsfan33
08-04-2009, 09:48 PM
^Example of reason why the President is handling this just right. Nothing on earth will ever satisfy this group.

President's should be held to an extremely high standard. I don't want an satisfactory or pedestrian presidnet I want a great President. More should be demanded of him not less. All I heard about throughout the campaign is how special and different he is and he is just another politician. I think it should just be put to rest by the presidnet with his birth certificate or a reasonable explanation.

SmthBluCitrus
08-04-2009, 09:55 PM
How come no medical records from Obama.

He did. (http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/05/obama_releases_health_informat.html)

A simple Google search reveals that ... next.


Why do you liberals always comeback with Palin.

You say "you liberals" like it's a bad thing. Den is a liberal and I'm a liberal -- and we each take different positions and use different tactics. So, instead of saying "you liberals" on a board where multiple liberals post, instead cite a specific poster and not the political philosophy.


She is irrelevant right now. Do you feel a necessity to continue to go after her because you feel she is a threat. It is just dumb, people will start to turn against you because it is unwarranted. Im not a big Palin supporter and don't want her to get the nomination, but everytime I hear someone go after her for no reason it makes me want to defend her and like her more.

Good. You should. "Us liberals" would love it if "you conservatives" did that.


Why want Obama just show the birth certificate so we can move on?

He did. "You birthers" just won't accept it -- so, instead, you make up your own phony Kenyan Republic one.


How many skeletons have we already seen come out of his closet? Should the possibility of another skeleton be that outrageous especially when his grandmother says she was in the delivery room in Kenya?

Such as? What "skeletons" are you speaking of that have already come out of said closet?

In the end, it's just a bunch of baseless and hollow accusations. Keep 'em coming -- the more you do it, the crazier you sound.

IndyFan
08-04-2009, 10:02 PM
President's should be held to an extremely high standard. I don't want an satisfactory or pedestrian presidnet I want a great President. More should be demanded of him not less. All I heard about throughout the campaign is how special and different he is and he is just another politician. I think it should just be put to rest by the presidnet with his birth certificate or a reasonable explanation.

there is a reasonable explanation, but pretty sure you don't like it.

:)

dbroncos78087
08-04-2009, 10:05 PM
Has anyone else made their own Kenyan birth certificate?

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/img/09/bc_template.jpg?CLICK

SmthBluCitrus
08-04-2009, 10:08 PM
Has anyone else made their own Kenyan birth certificate?

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/img/09/bc_template.jpg?CLICK

Won't load friend-o.

cabernetluver
08-04-2009, 10:19 PM
another link about this silliness factcheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html)


Born in the U.S.A.
August 21, 2008
Updated: November 1, 2008
The truth about Obama's birth certificate.
Summary
In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate to quell speculative charges that he might not be a natural-born citizen. But the image prompted more blog-based skepticism about the document's authenticity. And recently, author Jerome Corsi, whose book attacks Obama, said in a TV interview that the birth certificate the campaign has is "fake."

We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

Update, Nov. 1: The director of Hawaii’s Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu.

One would think that alone would be enough, but if one has another agenda, not the stated agenda, it is never enough.

dbroncos78087
08-04-2009, 10:21 PM
Won't load friend-o.

Conspiracy!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Make+your+own+fake+Kenyan+birth+certificate

cabernetluver
08-04-2009, 10:23 PM
Conspiracy!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Make+your+own+fake+Kenyan+birth+certificate

That was great.

behindmydesk
08-04-2009, 10:51 PM
Well, I don't condone that action, but its not like this whole movement isn't a baseless bash on Obama. Or the Muslim rumors. Sometimes people fight fire with fire, I'm not saying its right, but when the right side is throwing stones, the left will throw 'em back.

It's def not right, and is a worthless response. I think birthers are about as assanine as truthers. It'd be one thing if Palin came out as a birther but until then she has no basis in this discussion.

DenButsu
08-04-2009, 11:06 PM
I don't think a high school transcript is required to be Governor, or heck President.

But hey might as well always interject a baseless bash on Palin when ever possible.

I don't think it's pointless at all to make a joke that points out the glaring irony of people who proudly (and loudly) supported someone as unqualified for the presidency as Palin to be so vociferously questioning the (legitimate) qualifications of Obama.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-04-2009, 11:22 PM
I don't think it's pointless at all to make a joke that points out the glaring irony of people who proudly (and loudly) supported someone as unqualified for the presidency as Palin to be so vociferously questioning the (legitimate) qualifications of Obama.

my thoughts exactly, although I'd add proven and documented to be incompetent to that description.

behindmydesk
08-04-2009, 11:28 PM
I don't think it's pointless at all to make a joke that points out the glaring irony of people who proudly (and loudly) supported someone as unqualified for the presidency as Palin to be so vociferously questioning the (legitimate) qualifications of Obama.

So you support when there is a discussion on Palin, people just randomly point out that Obama is a coke head. AWESOME!!!!!



OUR PRESIDENT THE COKE HEAD! I"M PROUD!

behindmydesk
08-04-2009, 11:30 PM
And atleast when I say Obama the cokehead is a fact. Unlike PHX's claim that Palin fails classes with a bs website and was proven nonfactual by Gcoll

DenButsu
08-04-2009, 11:39 PM
bmd, you do understand the difference between a "joke" and a "serious claim" or "serious accusation", don't you?

You're acting as if I'm actually trying to legitimately make some kind of case against Palin, when what I did in fact do was quote a Bill Maher one liner JOKE. Jeez, overreact much?

behindmydesk
08-04-2009, 11:43 PM
No i'm just defending Palin with half as much vigor as Obama is defended. Again Palin has nothing to do with this, but yet gets brought in.

DenButsu
08-04-2009, 11:46 PM
But you're still missing my point which is that there was nothing to defend, because it was so obviously a joke.

But here, let me just say it plainly and clearly:

I was not suggesting that Palin literally did not finish high school. I was quoting a joke that was not intended to make a serious claim about her.

Okay?

gcoll
08-05-2009, 12:30 AM
But you're still missing my point which is that there was nothing to defend, because it was so obviously a joke.
But the joke is just a shot at Palin.

There's no ironic observation there that is humorous. It's a "Sarah Palin is dumb" joke. Hacky. Lame.


my thoughts exactly, although I'd add proven and documented to be incompetent to that description.
You believed an internet hoax.

You are no better than the birthers.

ETA: Also, your sig. What the **** is wrong with community college?

DenButsu
08-05-2009, 01:36 AM
There's no ironic observation there

There is. You just don't get it, I guess.

dbroncos78087
08-05-2009, 01:48 AM
You believed an internet hoax.

You are no better than the birthers.

ETA: Also, your sig. What the **** is wrong with community college?

The Ignore list is a beautiful thing.

gcoll
08-05-2009, 01:57 AM
There is. You just don't get it, I guess.
I guess not.

Your explanation was this:

I don't think it's pointless at all to make a joke that points out the glaring irony of people who proudly (and loudly) supported someone as unqualified for the presidency as Palin to be so vociferously questioning the (legitimate) qualifications of Obama.

A few things about this. Sarah Palin didn't run for president. And high school transcripts are not a qualification to become president. Being born in the United States is.

And just to add onto it....Barack Obama wasn't qualified to be president.

dbroncos78087
08-05-2009, 02:17 AM
So is the issue that he hasnt released his "real" birth certificate? Am i understanding it correctly? Because i am under the understanding that his real birth certificate had been released and certified by the HHS director of Hawaii. Please tell me what i am missing that is fueling this fire to the point where i believe a resolution was passed stating that Barack Obama was recognized as being born in Hawaii and the "birther bill" is necessary?

gcoll
08-05-2009, 02:26 AM
So is the issue that he hasnt released his "real" birth certificate?

Yeah. They don't think the "Certification of Live Birth" that he released is adequate.

Because i am under the understanding that his real birth certificate had been released and certified by the HHS director of Hawaii.
The "real" one hasn't been released. But the HHS director has verified that it exists. But they can't release it to just anyone. And the "Certification of Live Birth" is adequate in proving where he was born.

The lack of a release is what fuels conspiracy theorists. And there have been a few fake Kenyan birth certificates released, and some hearsay from supposed relatives of his father.

At least that's my understanding. But this isn't a conspiracy theory that has interested me. I've been more interested in the "Swine flu vaccine is an attempt to exterminate/control the populace" one. That one is juicier.

DenButsu
08-05-2009, 02:27 AM
A few things about this. Sarah Palin didn't run for president.

Anybody who's second on the ticket to a person as old as John McCain needs to have the ability to take office in the worst case scenario. No, technically she wasn't running "for president". But in practical terms, McCain needed a running mate who was legitimate presidential material, which she most definitely is not.


And high school transcripts are not a qualification to become president. Being born in the United States is.

Wrong. Being uneducated may not be a constitutional disqualifier, but I think any reasonable person would agree that the depth and complexities of the issues and problems the president has to deal with in this day and age necessitate that a highly educated person do the job if it's to be done competently.

And in fact, I would argue (as I have before) that the very notion that someone must be born within the borders of the United States to be a "natural born" citizen is subject to debate. If my wife (who is Japanese) and I had a baby here in Japan, and we moved to America a couple months later, and raised the kid there for his/her entire life, in every meaningful sense of the term, that child would be a "natural born" citizen - born to a citizen, raised from infancy in the culture as an American, educated in the American system, etc. Where the water broke really wouldn't have a damn thing to do with the child's "American-ness" in any significant way.


And just to add onto it....Barack Obama wasn't qualified to be president.

I won't even ask what the hell you mean by that ludicrous statement.

gcoll
08-05-2009, 02:34 AM
But in practical terms, McCain needed a running mate who was legitimate presidential material, which she most definitely is not.
I agree.

But I also think that Obama was unqualified.

the president has to deal with in this day and age necessitate that a highly educated person do the job if it's to be done competently.
Highly educated in what field? Just highly educated?


And in fact, I would argue (as I have before) that the very notion that someone must be born within the borders of the United States to be a "natural born" citizen is subject to debate
I agree with you there.


I won't even ask what the hell you mean by that ludicrous statement.
Well I'll answer anyway.

Lack of relevant experience/relevant knowledge. Same reason I think Palin is unqualified.

Plus. HE'S A KENYAN!!!

Seppuku
08-05-2009, 02:53 AM
What does Palin remotely have to do with this. She isn't even a Governor anymore. IM sure if you asked she would release all of her transcripts and medical records. How come no medical records from Obama. All I hear about how healthy he is, well that isn't entirely true. He is a smoker which everybody nows isn't good for you. It is a fair request that every other candidate has t odeal with. What makes him different than everybody else that he doesn't have to release his records. Why do you liberals always comeback with Palin. She is irrelevant right now. Do you feel a necessity to continue to go after her because you feel she is a threat. It is just dumb, people will start to turn against you because it is unwarranted. Im not a big Palin supporter and don't want her to get the nomination, but everytime I hear someone go after her for no reason it makes me want to defend her and like her more.

Why want Obama just show the birth certificate so we can move on? How many skeletons have we already seen come out of his closet? Should the possibility of another skeleton be that outrageous especially when his grandmother says she was in the delivery room in Kenya?

This was a deliberate misquote of a translator. Go check the previous link that debunked this. This was a popular one to use since you can cut off the recording before the translator makes the correction. It is an easy mistake to make if you let someone else manipulate what you hear. This leaves you grasping at the straws that the birther pot-stirrers are handing you. They are forgetting them once they are debunked. Please keep up with the data already presented in the thread.

Seppuku
08-05-2009, 03:09 AM
I agree.

But I also think that Obama was unqualified.

Lack of relevant experience/relevant knowledge. Same reason I think Palin is unqualified.

I agree. There is only one position that qualifies you and gives you the experience to be the PotUS. Ok, two... Either you are the POTUS or you are related to the POTUS. It's either on the job training, because nothing is like being the president, or it is genetic closeness to someone who has done it. Obama was a mistake. It really could only have been Hillary or Jeb, and Jeb didn't run. Maybe Hillary can throw a coup?

QuietWyatt
08-05-2009, 03:32 AM
But I also think that Obama was unqualified.

That's what political campaigns are for. Before everything starts, everybody is unqualified until their campaign proves you otherwise. Obama won pretty handedly.

gcoll
08-05-2009, 03:54 AM
I agree. There is only one position that qualifies you and gives you the experience to be the PotUS.

I'd like at least some foreign policy background in a presidential candidate. And I'd like to see some accomplishments in government.

But in a sense you are right that there really isn't a hard and fast rule about what qualifies people to be president. Though I get the sense that you are mocking me, which is fine.

That's what political campaigns are for. Before everything starts, everybody is unqualified until their campaign proves you otherwise. Obama won pretty handedly.
So no unqualified person has ever won a political campaign?

QuietWyatt
08-05-2009, 04:06 AM
After a campaign proves successful the previous inquiery becomes irrelevant.

behindmydesk
08-05-2009, 08:51 AM
But you're still missing my point which is that there was nothing to defend, because it was so obviously a joke.

But here, let me just say it plainly and clearly:

I was not suggesting that Palin literally did not finish high school. I was quoting a joke that was not intended to make a serious claim about her.

Okay?

You just don't get it Den. SARAH PALIN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ASSANINE CONVO. You simply want to take a swipe at her. She isn't even a birther. Not to mentino, you say well it's laughable that a party that threw her up and defend her support this birther argument. Really you are just going to generalize republicans, because Smth got pissed just 2 pages ago, (rightfully so! about generalizing parties). You sure that all us evil conservatives believe in this crockpot bs that Obama is born in some foreign country.

ari1013
08-05-2009, 09:07 AM
LOL... and it gets crazier...

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/08/04/australia_certificate/index.html
Guess that confirms Joseph Farah really is an attention-whore.

ari1013
08-05-2009, 09:09 AM
Yeah. They don't think the "Certification of Live Birth" that he released is adequate.

The "real" one hasn't been released. But the HHS director has verified that it exists. But they can't release it to just anyone. And the "Certification of Live Birth" is adequate in proving where he was born.

The lack of a release is what fuels conspiracy theorists. And there have been a few fake Kenyan birth certificates released, and some hearsay from supposed relatives of his father.

At least that's my understanding. But this isn't a conspiracy theory that has interested me. I've been more interested in the "Swine flu vaccine is an attempt to exterminate/control the populace" one. That one is juicier.
gcoll do you have a link to the swine flu one? That one sounds hilarious.

ari1013
08-05-2009, 09:11 AM
The Ignore list is a beautiful thing.



It gets bigger everyday. Pretty soon I'll be able to field a full basketball team. Next up is baseball.

DenButsu
08-05-2009, 09:38 AM
You just don't get it Den. SARAH PALIN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ASSANINE CONVO. You simply want to take a swipe at her. She isn't even a birther. Not to mentino, you say well it's laughable that a party that threw her up and defend her support this birther argument. Really you are just going to generalize republicans, because Smth got pissed just 2 pages ago, (rightfully so! about generalizing parties). You sure that all us evil conservatives believe in this crockpot bs that Obama is born in some foreign country.

First of all, once again, it was a gdmf JOKE. So please stop acting like I was actually trying to introduce her into the conversation in a real way. You're totally making a mountain out of a molehill here.

But secondly, I'm not generalizing about Republicans. I'm generalizing about the crazies. And if you think the same crazies who were going to Palin rallies and screaming racist crap against Obama don't have a bigtime crossover with the same crazies who are on a racist trip about Obama being illegitimate, then you're really fooling yourself.

behindmydesk
08-05-2009, 12:44 PM
First of all, once again, it was a gdmf JOKE. So please stop acting like I was actually trying to introduce her into the conversation in a real way. You're totally making a mountain out of a molehill here.

But secondly, I'm not generalizing about Republicans. I'm generalizing about the crazies. And if you think the same crazies who were going to Palin rallies and screaming racist crap against Obama don't have a bigtime crossover with the same crazies who are on a racist trip about Obama being illegitimate, then you're really fooling yourself.

********. Palin does not equal racist, and does not equal birther.

And that's fine if it's a joke, just odn't get your high horse when ever someone says anything bad about a Republican, and I respond Cokehead Obama is doing this. Because after all it's a joke, and will thus lead to great discussion.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-05-2009, 12:47 PM
But the joke is just a shot at Palin.

There's no ironic observation there that is humorous. It's a "Sarah Palin is dumb" joke. Hacky. Lame.


You believed an internet hoax.

You are no better than the birthers.

ETA: Also, your sig. What the **** is wrong with community college?

nothing is wrong with community college. Our national leaders should not be community college educated and have this to show as their examples of higher learning.

I was tricked by the website, fine. There is still nothing to disprove the fact that she is an incompetent, ignorant blowhard with no real experience or ability to comprehend policy. I stand by the fact that she is ignorant.

gcoll
08-05-2009, 05:51 PM
gcoll do you have a link to the swine flu one? That one sounds hilarious.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/swine-flu-attack-likely-a-beta-test.html
http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/25191

It's Alex Jones and David Icke.....as per usual.

nothing is wrong with community college.
Damn right.

dbroncos78087
08-05-2009, 06:53 PM
So if a politician goes to community college they are somehow unfit?

crzysportsfan33
08-05-2009, 10:16 PM
nothing is wrong with community college. Our national leaders should not be community college educated and have this to show as their examples of higher learning.

I was tricked by the website, fine. There is still nothing to disprove the fact that she is an incompetent, ignorant blowhard with no real experience or ability to comprehend policy. I stand by the fact that she is ignorant.

She has more experience than Obama did prior to being President. What executive experience did he have before he was president, absolutely zero. President is an executive position. You need to know how lead, run, and manage things and Obama had none of that. His major accomplishment on his resume was being a US Senator for four years in which two of them he was busy running for president. More importantly he did nothing as a US Senator, we can all look through his career as a Senator and find he was a pedestrian Senator at best. Before 2004 he hadn't doen anything significant that would prove valuable to be President of the United States of America.

Honestly for me it is more important that my president can relate to some of the things im goin through as an average joe. My President doesn't have to be the editor of the Harvard Law Journal. I don't want someone who is uneducated, but community college or Idaho University is a far cry from being uneducated. I want a politician who for once is down to earth. I know for sure that Obama doesn't fit that mold just by his comments to a bunch of elitiests in San Francisco about Pennsylvanians.

Also with Palin she has said stupid things, but so has Obama. He once said there were 57 states. Politicians all make theri mistakes. Palin is certaintly not dumb. There are also two types of smarts, book smart and "street" smart. When your president you don't neccessarily need to be that smart today bc you have all your staffers who research for you and write you speeches, but you do need to be able a great quick decision maker. If Palin was so dumb how came she beat Bidne in their VP debate?

SmthBluCitrus
08-05-2009, 10:24 PM
Is it fall 2008 again?

gcoll
08-05-2009, 10:26 PM
If Palin was so dumb how came she beat Bidne in their VP debate?
Biden is dumb too???

PHX-SOXFAN
08-05-2009, 10:43 PM
She has more experience than Obama did prior to being President. What executive experience did he have before he was president, absolutely zero. President is an executive position. You need to know how lead, run, and manage things and Obama had none of that. His major accomplishment on his resume was being a US Senator for four years in which two of them he was busy running for president. More importantly he did nothing as a US Senator, we can all look through his career as a Senator and find he was a pedestrian Senator at best. Before 2004 he hadn't doen anything significant that would prove valuable to be President of the United States of America.

Honestly for me it is more important that my president can relate to some of the things im goin through as an average joe. My President doesn't have to be the editor of the Harvard Law Journal. I don't want someone who is uneducated, but community college or Idaho University is a far cry from being uneducated. I want a politician who for once is down to earth. I know for sure that Obama doesn't fit that mold just by his comments to a bunch of elitiests in San Francisco about Pennsylvanians.

Also with Palin she has said stupid things, but so has Obama. He once said there were 57 states. Politicians all make theri mistakes. Palin is certaintly not dumb. There are also two types of smarts, book smart and "street" smart. When your president you don't neccessarily need to be that smart today bc you have all your staffers who research for you and write you speeches, but you do need to be able a great quick decision maker. If Palin was so dumb how came she beat Bidne in their VP debate?

wow, just wow

1. palin now has 2.5 years as governor, and she left as the state has budget problems. nice leadership and experience. I'm glad this talking point is dead, find something else for next election.

2. can you really relate to palin? someone who can't even answer simple questions and speaks in vague talking points?

3. Palin's five schools in five years to get a poli sci and communications degree is a joke compared to every other politician. It makes average americans feel smarter than her. She has the same degree NCAA jocks have. nice accomplishment.

4. obama was referring to voters feeling disenfranchised and clinging to "guns and religion" politically to analyze their choices since they feel nothing ever changes no matter who wins. listen or read the entire statement in it's context, not regurgitated from sean hannity. you'll feel smarter having all the information.

5. palin is neither book smart nor street smart, see her education and any of her interviews for proof regarding both.

6. Palin did not "win" the debate. the only People who think so are the people in W's approval rating and those who think she is smart. IT wasn't even close:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/03/debate.poll/index.html
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/whats_a_win_vp_debate_edition.php
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/02/politics/horserace/entry4497035.shtml

I love how that one keeps getting spin on am radio that Palin won. Not even rasmussen can put together a poll that thinks so. hilarious.

7. "you don't have to be that smart to be president". thanks for that one in bold.

flea
08-05-2009, 10:48 PM
She has more experience than Obama did prior to being President. What executive experience did he have before he was president, absolutely zero. President is an executive position. You need to know how lead, run, and manage things and Obama had none of that. His major accomplishment on his resume was being a US Senator for four years in which two of them he was busy running for president. More importantly he did nothing as a US Senator, we can all look through his career as a Senator and find he was a pedestrian Senator at best. Before 2004 he hadn't doen anything significant that would prove valuable to be President of the United States of America.

Honestly for me it is more important that my president can relate to some of the things im goin through as an average joe. My President doesn't have to be the editor of the Harvard Law Journal. I don't want someone who is uneducated, but community college or Idaho University is a far cry from being uneducated. I want a politician who for once is down to earth. I know for sure that Obama doesn't fit that mold just by his comments to a bunch of elitiests in San Francisco about Pennsylvanians.

Also with Palin she has said stupid things, but so has Obama. He once said there were 57 states. Politicians all make theri mistakes. Palin is certaintly not dumb. There are also two types of smarts, book smart and "street" smart. When your president you don't neccessarily need to be that smart today bc you have all your staffers who research for you and write you speeches, but you do need to be able a great quick decision maker. If Palin was so dumb how came she beat Bidne in their VP debate?
This is a downright hilarious jokepost. You, sir, are one of the elite trolls.

DenButsu
08-05-2009, 10:49 PM
********. Palin does not equal racist, and does not equal birther.

:laugh2: Did I ever say she did? (Here's a hint: No, I didn't. And the joke is really about the hypocrisy of the birthers much more than it is about Palin herself).

You are reading so much more into this than was ever there. Let. It. Go.



And yeah, every time anyone around here brings up anything like a Teddy's an alcoholic joke, or a Clinton blow job joke, or a Gore invented the internet joke, I get in full-on defensive mode and and take it way too seriously and drag it out for 3 forum pages. :rolleyes:

ari1013
08-05-2009, 10:54 PM
http://www.prisonplanet.com/swine-flu-attack-likely-a-beta-test.html
http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/25191

It's Alex Jones and David Icke.....as per usual.

Damn right.
They should start writing movies. Some of this stuff is better than what gets put out of Hollywood these days.

Seppuku
08-06-2009, 03:41 AM
I'd like at least some foreign policy background in a presidential candidate. And I'd like to see some accomplishments in government.

But in a sense you are right that there really isn't a hard and fast rule about what qualifies people to be president. Though I get the sense that you are mocking me, which is fine.


I think he has done an amazing job so far with foreign diplomacy. I'll agree that he was personally thin before the election. He put together a good team of vetted personel to help him with that.

It is hard to say what best qualifies someone to be president. We learned what didn't work and I believe people were rebelling against that genre. We got a near polar opposite. We no longer have a chumy vocablulary bumbler who gets misunderestimated. We went to the far other end with a elitist education professor who specialized in Constitutional Law. The neighborly jester type was no longer funny. America apparently wanted to go intellectual hard core. There will be a day when the people swing back to more personality and less stick up the bum politicians for POTUS. That said, Obama isn't doing that badly in the personality department, but it sure is different.

As far a mocking you, don't take it that way. I was mocking the system that seems to think that leadership based in familial nepotism is ok, even if the 2nd family member is barely a shadow of the first. Imagine if Jeb had run? Another Bush vs Clinton election. Oh what a crapfest that would have been.

lamar2006
08-06-2009, 03:54 AM
nothing is wrong with community college. Our national leaders should not be community college educated and have this to show as their examples of higher learning.

I was tricked by the website, fine. There is still nothing to disprove the fact that she is an incompetent, ignorant blowhard with no real experience or ability to comprehend policy. I stand by the fact that she is ignorant.

man, what are you talking about she is a foreign expert. she can handle N. Korea like nothing. Clinton would like like a fool next to her. After all she can see Russia from her house. NO seriously Sarah is a joke. She cant handle Alaska so she should join that party that Tod was in that wanted to leave the union. maybe just maybe she can become president of this new nation

IndyFan
08-06-2009, 08:12 AM
I think he has done an amazing job so far with foreign diplomacy. I'll agree that he was personally thin before the election. He put together a good team of vetted personel to help him with that.


i agree. :nod: obama was thin in the qualifications column before the election. and that he seems to be doing a pretty good job so far. he and his people have acted quickly to deal with the economy. what they are doing seems to work. the health care thing is messy, but has to be dealt with. foreign policy seems to be going ok. he is off to a decent start. but, bush jr got off to a decent start, and he was terrible.


It is hard to say what best qualifies someone to be president. . . . America apparently wanted to go intellectual hard core. There will be a day when the people swing back to more personality and less stick up the bum politicians for POTUS.

being president is a very hard job, imo. clinton showed that govt can be made to work. but it is not easy. bush jr showed what happens when you are not smart enough to do the job. let's hope both sides get that and pick guys [or gals :D] that are smart. nothing is scarier than a guy over his head with his finger on the button.


I was mocking the system that seems to think that leadership based in familial nepotism is ok, even if the 2nd family member is barely a shadow of the first. Imagine if Jeb had run? Another Bush vs Clinton election. Oh what a crapfest that would have been.

i get your point, and agree. but, i wish HRC had run. she would have made a great president, IMO. she is both smart and knowledgable enough to do a good job. but obama won, and he is the guy for now. everyone should get down on their knees at night and :pray: he does a good job.

:)

utahjazzno12fan
08-06-2009, 08:45 AM
http://kenyanbirthcertificategenerator.com/