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View Full Version : Yet Another Bargs Thread: Can you be a good defender on a bad defensive team?



Chronz
07-27-2009, 02:57 AM
Ive always been under the assumption that he was a poor defender, I saw the majority of his career when hes been out of position allegedly at the 3, but there have been a numerous amount of Rap supporters that are claiming hes much improved at the 5, tougher than given credit for, and certainly better than average.
To which I have a few questions

If your a good defender, particularly a bigman, shouldnt your team be atleast decent defensively? How good did bigmen play against your team, how good was the defense with Bargs compared to without.

Kyle N.
07-27-2009, 03:05 AM
Well yeah you can be a good defender on a bad defensive team. If anything, if your team is bad at defense, it can make you look like a bad defender because you would have to do a lot of switching and trying to block shots of people getting into the lane, which a lot of times results in fouling.

DaoudS
07-27-2009, 03:20 AM
It's also a matter of schemes. Some coaches rely on help defense, while others want more one on one match ups. In the case of Bargnani, he played decent man up defense against big men last year. He averaged 1.5 blocks per game and most of those weren't against wing players - they were against the guy who was backing him down.

I would argue that Bargnani is more defensively sound than Bosh. He uses his size and hands better than CB.

By no stretch of the imagination is Bargnani is a future defensive player of the year candidate, but at the same time he isn't a slouch that can be over looked.

Beno7500
07-27-2009, 03:28 AM
Why couldnt you?

Artest was in Sac

Chronz
07-27-2009, 03:45 AM
Well then I have one question,

So if Bargs is a good defender, wouldnt that mean Bosh is a historically bad one? Or are you implying that a team with 2 good defensive bigmen could be this bad defensively?

Defensive schemes are built around your best defenders. So not sure how this helps his argument, if hes not effective in that scheme then what difference is he making?

Maybe it would help if you guys gave me examples of players who you think hes comparable with defensively that were on bad defensive teams, yet considered good defenders.

I agree the better defenders you have around you, the better it makes you, but when it comes to bigmen, you should have a bigger influence on your teams defense.

Then when you consider that opposing PF/C shot +53% against them this year, (higher marks with Bargs in the game). And Im not so sure about Bargs blocking out his own man much, opposing centers got 60% of their shot attempts on the inside (a higher rate than just about everyone in the league). Top opposing bigmen tend to force their counterpart into lower shooting marks or lower attempts, the Raps were futile at both, the teams in their league when it comes to defending bigmen were the Kings.

B.JenningsMVP
07-27-2009, 03:47 AM
Marcus Camby on Den..

Chronz
07-27-2009, 03:48 AM
Why couldnt you?

Artest was in Sac

Im speaking specifically about bigmen, but Im glad you mentioned Artest.

When he got to Sacramento he instantly bolstered their defense (Whopping+6pts better with him on the floor), there was an obvious dropoff when he wasnt in the game, in other words there were signs that Artest was still a dominant defender even though the team defense wasnt all that great. Thats basically what Im looking for when people talk about Bargs, what does he have going for him?

Chronz
07-27-2009, 03:49 AM
Marcus Camby on Den..

Denver was perennially an average defensive team, never as bad as the Raps were this year.

Joshtd1
07-27-2009, 03:53 AM
Havent seen much of the Raps so its hard to comment for me..but from what I have seen, I havent ever looked at him thought of him as a good defensive player.

DaoudS
07-27-2009, 04:08 AM
Well then I have one question,

So if Bargs is a good defender, wouldnt that mean Bosh is a historically bad one? Or are you implying that a team with 2 good defensive bigmen could be this bad defensively?

I said in an earlier post that Bargnani arguably a better defender than Bosh. I also said that he isn't a shoe in for defensive player of the year but he isn't a slouch. Bosh IS historically a bad defender; he probably isn't good enough to guard a shooter like Bargnani.


Defensive schemes are built around your best defenders. So not sure how this helps his argument, if hes not effective in that scheme then what difference is he making?

Defensive schemes are also generated to hide weaknesses.


Maybe it would help if you guys gave me examples of players who you think hes comparable with defensively that were on bad defensive teams, yet considered good defenders.

Marcus Camby in Denver is a good example. Again, I or most Raptor fans, aren't saying that Bargnani is a "good" defender that can be mentioned with a guy like Camby, but merely pointing out that he is better than most people give him credit for.


I agree the better defenders you have around you, the better it makes you, but when it comes to bigmen, you should have a bigger influence on your teams defense.

I agree; which is why you say teams understanding a presence that Bargs had down low towards the end of the season.


Then when you consider that opposing PF/C shot +53% against them this year, (higher marks with Bargs in the game). And Im not so sure about Bargs blocking out his own man much, opposing centers got 60% of their shot attempts on the inside (a higher rate than just about everyone in the league). Top opposing bigmen tend to force their counterpart into lower shooting marks or lower attempts, the Raps were futile at both, the teams in their league when it comes to defending bigmen were the Kings.

Could you link me as to where you are getting these numbers? Raptors were god awful in the paint last year - I remember they gave up 90 points in the paint one game. The team was also in transition into a new coach who is the opposite of Sam Mitchell.


Denver was perennially an average defensive team, never as bad as the Raps were this year.

You seem to be a very passive aggressive person with a negative opinion that is cemented in your brain about the Raptors.

secterm
07-27-2009, 04:19 AM
Bargs lacks in a lot of areas; He really doesn't move his feet fluently like good defenders need to, he kind of shuffles...His reactionary timing is not great, hence his rebounding...and he doesn't appear (in my viewpoint) to be much of an athlete. Most really good defenders don't have that much time to be great offensive players because it too much for them to do both (there are exceptions, but this applies generally).

He is, however, a fairly decent shot blocker and did show some signs of improvement to his defensive game last year.

The way I see it, assembling a good team is all about balance and having players compliment one another (eg. guys compensating for each others shortcomings). There are many qualities about Bargs which I like; his offensive game is good and may develop into something really, really great...his great attitude and lack of an ego is second to none...and he's got something which nobody can teach, an enormous and long frame.

I just wish we had pulled the trigger on the Bosh for Biedrins, Randolph, and scraps trade. Imagine the starting two big men being Biedrins and Bargs. One guy dominates the offensive the other the defense. They are both only 23, and have both improved immensely over the last year and they both have long-term reasonable contracts. With Randolph off the bench, they would've had the best core of bigs for a decade. It's a ballsy/risky trade like that which Colangelo couldn't bring himself to make, which would have made us a championship franchise for years to come.

dee279
07-27-2009, 04:37 AM
Marcus Camby on the Nuggets!!! Your answer right there.

dee279
07-27-2009, 04:38 AM
Marcus Camby on Den..

OH you said that already. :clap:

dee279
07-27-2009, 04:39 AM
Denver was perennially an average defensive team, never as bad as the Raps were this year.

Because Marcus Camby made them an average defensive team. No one else played defense.

dee279
07-27-2009, 04:40 AM
Shawn Marion on the suns is another example.

dee279
07-27-2009, 04:41 AM
Also i dont watch the Raps, but for a 7 footer, he doesnt get many blocks or rebounds but idk bout his post game defense.

nearyG
07-27-2009, 04:58 AM
he has good footwork, positioning in the post (he is great at standing straight with his arms up when hes defending the low post...a lot of players lean forward or leave their feet)...he was terrible when he first came into the league but has grown a lot on the defensive end...his stats may not show it but he is a much better defender than bosh and once he adds more bulk to his frame, I think the stats will come...

D-Leethal
07-27-2009, 05:00 AM
I can see him getting a similar rap as a poor defender as David Lee, because when you have a bunch of poor perimeter defenders, the big men get left out to dry and end up taking the heat..........its alot easier to look like a good defender on a good defensive team, and same goes for looking poor defender on a poor defensive team. Look at how Paul Pierces reputation as a defender changed after KG came into town

dee279
07-27-2009, 05:57 AM
Bargs lacks in a lot of areas; He really doesn't move his feet fluently like good defenders need to, he kind of shuffles...His reactionary timing is not great, hence his rebounding...and he doesn't appear (in my viewpoint) to be much of an athlete. Most really good defenders don't have that much time to be great offensive players because it too much for them to do both (there are exceptions, but this applies generally).

He is, however, a fairly decent shot blocker and did show some signs of improvement to his defensive game last year.

The way I see it, assembling a good team is all about balance and having players compliment one another (eg. guys compensating for each others shortcomings). There are many qualities about Bargs which I like; his offensive game is good and may develop into something really, really great...his great attitude and lack of an ego is second to none...and he's got something which nobody can teach, an enormous and long frame.

I just wish we had pulled the trigger on the Bosh for Biedrins, Randolph, and scraps trade. Imagine the starting two big men being Biedrins and Bargs. One guy dominates the offensive the other the defense. They are both only 23, and have both improved immensely over the last year and they both have long-term reasonable contracts. With Randolph off the bench, they would've had the best core of bigs for a decade. It's a ballsy/risky trade like that which Colangelo couldn't bring himself to make, which would have made us a championship franchise for years to come.

Yeah that would have been a great trade for yall.

Ragun
07-27-2009, 06:42 AM
Well then I have one question,

So if Bargs is a good defender, wouldnt that mean Bosh is a historically bad one? Or are you implying that a team with 2 good defensive bigmen could be this bad defensively?

Defensive schemes are built around your best defenders. So not sure how this helps his argument, if hes not effective in that scheme then what difference is he making?

Maybe it would help if you guys gave me examples of players who you think hes comparable with defensively that were on bad defensive teams, yet considered good defenders.

I agree the better defenders you have around you, the better it makes you, but when it comes to bigmen, you should have a bigger influence on your teams defense.

Then when you consider that opposing PF/C shot +53% against them this year, (higher marks with Bargs in the game). And Im not so sure about Bargs blocking out his own man much, opposing centers got 60% of their shot attempts on the inside (a higher rate than just about everyone in the league). Top opposing bigmen tend to force their counterpart into lower shooting marks or lower attempts, the Raps were futile at both, the teams in their league when it comes to defending bigmen were the Kings.

chris bosh sucks on d. bargs cant guard the whole team.

azkarraga
07-27-2009, 07:46 AM
the question:
Bosh is a historically bad one?s.



the answer. yes

Rapthug
07-27-2009, 08:33 AM
I agree with most Raptor fans here. Bargnani is a much better defender than Bosh and I would consider him a pretty good defender. To me, Bargs seems to take much more pride in D than Bosh. Rebounding is only one aspect of defense. Bargs must improve in boards and get stronger but his foot work is excellent and his blocks come in help situations and on his own guy. He's not all world defensive at this point but I think he's above average. Especially, when you consider how bad he was in his first year.

pebloemer
07-27-2009, 09:02 AM
I mostly agree with the Raptor's representation on this thread. Although I wouldn't say he is an above average defender at the point. I think Toronto fans are quick to defend Bargnani's defensive game because he has

a) Worked hard on improving it last summer
b) Shown visible improvement on the court
c) Shown much more interest and purpose on defense

Sometimes I wonder if these factors lead to fans overrating his defense. If he continues to work as hard as he has I do believe he can be an above average defender, but he needs more strength and practice to get there. It is easier to be optimistic when he has shown these signs. Currently, I think he is average at best. He can make shots more difficult for his opponent, stay out of foul trouble and has decent instincts to get the occasional block. Most Centers in the league can do that too, plus they rebound better.

But I also think if Toronto fans overrate Bargs it is largely in response to other fans underrating him. That's where my discussion about (d) comes in.

d) Gets the bad Rap for Toronto's poor interior defense

Bosh has been viewed over the years as a decent defensive player. Last year he did not show that. The interest did not seem there on defense. But on these forums, it is Bargs that frequently gets bashed.

In addition, Calderon's hamstring injury that he had for most of the season restricted his lateral movement and led to many many blow by's from opposing PG's. If Bargnani comes as help defender, he leaves his man open for a dunk unless the rest of the team rotates with him. The Raptor's have had difficulties with their rotations to say the least. It wasn't until Marion arrived that the team started keeping each other accountable on defense.

This problem (IMO) was also made worse by Parker's tendency to double team and try and get steals. He lost his own man too many times because he was trying to do too much. Kapono was also a black hole on defense.

The team as a whole just played very poor defense all season long. Bargnani was the only player who consistently took pride in that part of his game and showed improvements. Bosh appeared more frustrated or at times complacent about it.

With a new season, new optimism and a full training camp to work with the players, we'll see if the team can make more improvements and show more interest on the defensive end.

Chronz
07-27-2009, 04:14 PM
I said in an earlier post that Bargnani arguably a better defender than Bosh. I also said that he isn't a shoe in for defensive player of the year but he isn't a slouch. Bosh IS historically a bad defender; he probably isn't good enough to guard a shooter like Bargnani.

When I say historically I dont mean throughout his career, I mean as in stacked up against every big whos ever played. Worse than Webber in Philly, Walker, you know truly bad defenders.

Ive always thought of Bosh as an average defender, he would have to be ZBO like to be a historically bad defender, I just dont think thats possible.


Defensive schemes are also generated to hide weaknesses.
Your point?



Marcus Camby in Denver is a good example. Again, I or most Raptor fans, aren't saying that Bargnani is a "good" defender that can be mentioned with a guy like Camby, but merely pointing out that he is better than most people give him credit for.

This is where our differences lay, I dont consider Camby of being all that good defensively, if youve followed his career the majority have pegged him as overrated. To me Camby is above average and should be the perfect barometer for how a decent defender should impact the game.

The reason Camby in Denver isnt a good example is because even in Denver, the teams defensive efficiency was still better than average. When healthy hes always fortified a top defense. Though hes always had someone like Nene, KT, or KMart helping him, hes atleast garnered attention for being a good defender. Bargs isnt in the same league when it comes to helping and recovering on the glass as Camby, and help defense is an aspect of Bargs defense that I continue to see lauded.


I agree; which is why you say teams understanding a presence that Bargs had down low towards the end of the season.

Im not following you here, what did teams do?


Could you link me as to where you are getting these numbers? Raptors were god awful in the paint last year - I remember they gave up 90 points in the paint one game. The team was also in transition into a new coach who is the opposite of Sam Mitchell.

http://dougstats.com/08-09.html
You have to compile the #'s and sort out the positions yourself. Which is something I could use alittle help with actually. When it comes to counterpart #'s it adds a great deal of context when you know the matchups. Usually its not a problem, but with Bosh and Bargs, both are listed as PF/C. Which is why I was asking at the top, who usually guarded the KG's and the Duncans. In either event, both the PF and C #'s were terrible, though Bargs individual counterpart #'s were better.


You seem to be a very passive aggressive person with a negative opinion that is cemented in your brain about the Raptors.

The only negative opinion I hold for anything related to the Raptors are its fanbase. No offense but Id rank them up there with Laker fans when it comes to homeristic propaganda. Just trying to make sense of your guys logic is all.

But still, why is it so negative to point out facts? Or are you deriving the negative sentiment because it upsets you?

Chronz
07-27-2009, 04:22 PM
Because Marcus Camby made them an average defensive team. No one else played defense.
Well if we assume what you say is true, then your basically hinting at the point I was making. Camby made enough of an impact to make them a decent enough defensive team, Bargs hasnt.

But Camby had some defensive talent to work with so he wasnt alone, but still, Im looking for any good defensive bigman being on a bad defensive team.

Chronz
07-27-2009, 04:26 PM
chris bosh sucks on d. bargs cant guard the whole team.

My point is that, to be considered good, you have to be able to guard the whole team atleast competently enough that you make a big enough impact to make your team respectable. Maybe a decent defender, or an improving average defender, but too often I hear him labeled good and I just cant help but think they must have low standards.

LanceUpperCut
07-27-2009, 04:57 PM
I think everyone is trying tell you he keeps getting better and improving in huge strides with his D but they way he plays by drawing the bigs out of the key to open lanes for a needed slasher makes his stats look worse than he is.

smith&wesson
07-27-2009, 04:57 PM
Well then I have one question,

So if Bargs is a good defender, wouldnt that mean Bosh is a historically bad one? Or are you implying that a team with 2 good defensive bigmen could be this bad defensively?

Defensive schemes are built around your best defenders. So not sure how this helps his argument, if hes not effective in that scheme then what difference is he making?

Maybe it would help if you guys gave me examples of players who you think hes comparable with defensively that were on bad defensive teams, yet considered good defenders.

I agree the better defenders you have around you, the better it makes you, but when it comes to bigmen, you should have a bigger influence on your teams defense.

Then when you consider that opposing PF/C shot +53% against them this year, (higher marks with Bargs in the game). And Im not so sure about Bargs blocking out his own man much, opposing centers got 60% of their shot attempts on the inside (a higher rate than just about everyone in the league). Top opposing bigmen tend to force their counterpart into lower shooting marks or lower attempts, the Raps were futile at both, the teams in their league when it comes to defending bigmen were the Kings.

ummm bargs just got better at D last year because he worked with J oniel all summer before the season... once the season started you notice a dramatic change in his D and inside pressence.

but still he is just an average defender at this point. not bad. but not great either. at least not yet. But he did vastly improve from a big man that often got in to foul trouble to one that actually can block shots, box out and grab boards. he is a work in progress on the defensive end because he can still improve and probably will this season.

bosh is ok too. he played great D on the USA team last year. i think the he can be above average on D as well.. but neither are great defenders. but i wouldnt call them poor defenders either.

your looking at too big me that are ok on defence. but are killers on offence.

rapswin98
07-27-2009, 05:01 PM
bargs got alot better on defense but I still think he has alot of room for improvement.

dtmagnet
07-27-2009, 05:02 PM
Well he isn't a bonafide defensive stopper but he isn't a liability on D, hope that helps.

td0tsfinest
07-27-2009, 05:08 PM
this thread is pretty stupid imo.

If this whole thing is about Bargnani and his defense; he's good defender. Was probably our best defender all season long, but that isn't saying much.

I don't understand why you can't be a good defender on a bad team? Does that mean every bad team doesn't have any good defenders?

This is pretty stupid.

yungballah15
07-27-2009, 05:12 PM
he plays good post d, can block shots in the post, and takes charges, he isnt the best defender, but does a lot of good things.

Chronz
07-27-2009, 05:22 PM
this thread is pretty stupid imo.

If this whole thing is about Bargnani and his defense; he's good defender. Was probably our best defender all season long, but that isn't saying much.

This is what Im so confused about, you went from saying hes a good defender to probably our best. So now your telling me a team that was this poor defensively has a multitude of defensive ace/good defenders atleast enough for you to think twice about it. I think people toss around the word good way too freely around here.



I don't understand why you can't be a good defender on a bad team? Does that mean every bad team doesn't have any good defenders?

This is pretty stupid.
Personally I have different viewpoints on this and its totally dependent on your position and playing style. When it comes to bigmen however, I keep the leash short.

But if its pretty stupid, then you wont have any problems helping answer the question with examples.

Bigmen defenders on bad defensive teams that were considered good defenders at the time.

Chronz
07-27-2009, 05:26 PM
I think everyone is trying tell you he keeps getting better and improving in huge strides with his D but they way he plays by drawing the bigs out of the key to open lanes for a needed slasher makes his stats look worse than he is.
This is a defensive thread, it has nothing to do with offense.

magikmc
07-27-2009, 05:59 PM
in regards to your question about Bosh being a bad defender... do you think Stoudamire is a bad defender??

If you do, then there's your answer. Bosh and Stat are pretty much the same in relation to defense.

To answer your question in regards to being a good defender on a bad defensive team. Yes you can.

Shaq, Marion, Raja Bell all from the suns.

Nene

Dalembert is known for blocks

Biedrins

Camby

Raph12
07-27-2009, 06:13 PM
yes you could, Orlando last season had no good outside defenders outside of Pietrus, but the Magic had the best defensive rating in the league. Now without Dwight's inside presence, the Magic would be nowhere near top defensive team in the league. So if you are a good defender, you can make your team look better than they actually are. Bargnani idk about just yet, give him another year or two, he's still a bit raw defensively, if anything I'd say Bosh is their defensive presence on the inside rather than Bargnani.

Dwight acceptance speech for DPOY: I'd like to thank my teammates, for without them none of this was possible, if they didn't let their men beat them to the basket I would never have gotten that many blocks

Funny but true

Chronz
07-27-2009, 06:35 PM
in regards to your question about Bosh being a bad defender... do you think Stoudamire is a bad defender??

If you do, then there's your answer. Bosh and Stat are pretty much the same in relation to defense.

To answer your question in regards to being a good defender on a bad defensive team. Yes you can.
I think Amare is better than Bosh because he has the size to actually compete in the paint.


Shaq, Marion, Raja Bell all from the suns.
I was talking specifically about good bigmen defenders, something Shaq isnt really much of nowadays. And Marion has tons going for him defensively, he was the Suns defense and it wasnt so bad with him on the floor.



Nene

Has always headlined a top defense, I agree with you selecting him as a good defender though he does have his weaknesses on the glass that prevent his team from being elite.


Dalembert is known for blocks
Philly was an undersized team with a slow footed PG, considering he had no true partner in the frontcourt alongside him most of the time, the fact that the Sixers finished above average in defensive efficiency is a testament to Iggy and Delmberts defensive talent. Dalembert also posted a ridiculous defensive differential of -5.4, his counterpart #'s were strong if not for him, the Sixers wouldve ranked among the worst right with Toronto when it comes to defensive #'s at the Center spot. The Sixers were a .500 team after all.


Biedrins
I think you may have found one. The warriors were one of the worst defensive team in the league but there are a few factors in Biedrins favor that give him some kind of leeway. He had the teams highest overall defensive RTG, hes a much better rebounder who can alter shots without losing position, he was paired in alot of small ball with Maggette/Cap Jack as his bigmen, when paired with actual bigs the teams defense was somewhat solid, though in a limited sample not very conclusive. The teams defense was both subjectively and quantifiable worse without him, on the glass, and in terms of keeping opponent shooting%'s down and off the line.

But his counterpart #'s are horrible, in part because his help responsibility was so high, but that also made him indispensable defensively. Even taking into account all these strengths and weaknesses, I dont find Biedrins of being a really good defender, hes more like a poor mans Camby to me, and Camby is the guy I see as the barometer for "good", Biedrins is above average, needs to work on his positional defense.


Camby
Explained above

Chronz
07-27-2009, 06:38 PM
yes you could, Orlando last season had no good outside defenders outside of Pietrus, but the Magic had the best defensive rating in the league. Now without Dwight's inside presence, the Magic would be nowhere near top defensive team in the league. So if you are a good defender, you can make your team look better than they actually are. Bargnani idk about just yet, give him another year or two, he's still a bit raw defensively, if anything I'd say Bosh is their defensive presence on the inside rather than Bargnani.

Dwight acceptance speech for DPOY: I'd like to thank my teammates, for without them none of this was possible, if they didn't let their men beat them to the basket I would never have gotten that many blocks

Funny but true

Zo said the same thing when he won it, its why I started this thread actually. When Bill Russel joined the Celtics the teams defensive efficiency shifted dramatically. But these are some great defenders so comparing their impact to Bargs isnt right.

Ive never seen any Rap supporter claim he was a DPOY caliber defender, thats quite obvious that you have to be a great defender to have that kind of pull, but Im trying to define GOODness here. The guy above me gave me great examples, but each one had some kind of strength that justified his selection. Im struggling to find one with Bargs.

I really think hes average borderline below average, and that Bosh is pretty much on par with him.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-27-2009, 06:39 PM
I think most Raptors fans mean he is improving.

He showed improved defence last year and a lot think it is only going to get better.

He put on almost 20 pounds of muscle and held some good players below their average like Yao and Howard

dre1990
07-27-2009, 06:46 PM
Marcus Camby when he played for Denver in 07-08.the rest of the teams poor D cost him his 2nd DPOY IMO

Chronz
07-27-2009, 07:14 PM
I think most Raptors fans mean he is improving.

He showed improved defence last year and a lot think it is only going to get better.

He put on almost 20 pounds of muscle and held some good players below their average like Yao and Howard
Look up the season averages of PF/C and you'll find that the raptors were one of the worst at defending them.

I saw most of the Dwight-Bosh games, and all of Yaos games. I dont recall Bargs being impressive defensively in any of them. Yao was still dominant but it was the low mark for the Rockets, Tmac was really becoming a distraction and a non-factor on the court, the team tanked that game, it was the beginning of the end for Tmac. Once the drama was out of the way and the Rockets came back the entire Raptors team tried to stop Yao. They swarmed him like only the teams with bad defensive bigmen do, I remember either Landry or Scola going beserk against you guys, probably both. I just remember a game where all 3 of them got double-doubles with like 60pts. Thats one of the games I think of when people talk about Bargs defense.

I have the game where Dwight sets career highs on you guys, and in every game he torched you guys, his worst game came when Jermaine was still a Raptor, he was the primary defender and in help situations or isolated matchups, Bargnani got into early foul trouble.


Marcus Camby when he played for Denver in 07-08.the rest of the teams poor D cost him his 2nd DPOY IMO
People please stop with the Camby mentioning, Denver wasnt bad defensively, certainly not like the Raps were.

franey25
07-27-2009, 07:30 PM
um ok wow lol bargnani averaged 1.5 blocks per game last year and i watcehd every single game and let me tell u as 3 year rapor fan he has improved since last year hes not motumbo but hes IMPROVED as in better then dirk defensivly and ya examples ron artest on sacremento,shawn marion on pheonix, and j.o was a good defensive big man on our team and we werent good at perimeter defense bargnani can't control what our perimeter defenders do

Raps18-19 Champ
07-27-2009, 07:32 PM
Look up the season averages of PF/C and you'll find that the raptors were one of the worst at defending them.

I saw most of the Dwight-Bosh games, and all of Yaos games. I dont recall Bargs being impressive defensively in any of them. Yao was still dominant but it was the low mark for the Rockets, Tmac was really becoming a distraction and a non-factor on the court, the team tanked that game, it was the beginning of the end for Tmac. Once the drama was out of the way and the Rockets came back the entire Raptors team tried to stop Yao. They swarmed him like only the teams with bad defensive bigmen do, I remember either Landry or Scola going beserk against you guys, probably both. I just remember a game where all 3 of them got double-doubles with like 60pts. Thats one of the games I think of when people talk about Bargs defense.

I have the game where Dwight sets career highs on you guys, and in every game he torched you guys, his worst game came when Jermaine was still a Raptor, he was the primary defender and in help situations or isolated matchups, Bargnani got into early foul trouble.


Look at Yao's game log on 1/2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=1722

and I don't mean Howard, I meant Shaq

He did good against Shaq on the 18th of January.

I'm nnot saying Bargnani is completely improved but he showed he can keep up with other big men and is strong enough to not get bullied every time.

Bargnani doubled his block stat from last year and hasn't been bullied as much inside.

Chronz
07-27-2009, 07:45 PM
I know what game you were referring to. Hence the post above

And I know hes improved, there wasnt much else for him to go but up, even still I dont think Bargs can keep up, PF/C dominated you guys all year, Shaq totally dominated you guys. Must be nice to totally write that game off though huh.

pebloemer
07-27-2009, 07:48 PM
I really think hes average borderline below average, and that Bosh is pretty much on par with him.

I would agree with this assessment. However I would state that Bosh has not remained mentally focussed on defense the way Bargnani has, nor has he shown recent improvement as Bargnani has. I think it is why most Raptor fans are more optimistic about Bargnani's defense.

Regarding the terms "good defender," "average defender," etc, it think it is just a difference in use of language. I do think it is more technically accurate to use average or below average as the word implies a comparison to other players in the league whereas "good" can be vague with its meaning and with its intent. I could say Bargnani is a "good" defender, but so are pretty much all NBA players depending on perspective.

I think the best understanding people can come away with this thread (this is my opinion), is that Bargnani holds his own on defense and is not the liability he once was, however he still has a long way to go if he wants to be anything more than an average defender. For those who have watched Bargnani throughout his rookie season, I'd hope this justifies his progress, because for a player who used to be unable to stay in games because of foul trouble, to him being able to hold his own is significant progress.

pebloemer
07-27-2009, 07:51 PM
I know what game you were referring to. Hence the post above

And I know hes improved, there wasnt much else for him to go but up, even still I dont think Bargs can keep up, PF/C dominated you guys all year, Shaq totally dominated you guys. Must be nice to totally write that game off though huh.

Shaw definitely did, although for some reason we have had good regular season showing against the Dwight and the Magic.

Rapsjaysleafs
07-27-2009, 07:59 PM
When I say historically I dont mean throughout his career, I mean as in stacked up against every big whos ever played. Worse than Webber in Philly, Walker, you know truly bad defenders.

Ive always thought of Bosh as an average defender, he would have to be ZBO like to be a historically bad defender, I just dont think thats possible.


Your point?



This is where our differences lay, I dont consider Camby of being all that good defensively, if youve followed his career the majority have pegged him as overrated. To me Camby is above average and should be the perfect barometer for how a decent defender should impact the game.

The reason Camby in Denver isnt a good example is because even in Denver, the teams defensive efficiency was still better than average. When healthy hes always fortified a top defense. Though hes always had someone like Nene, KT, or KMart helping him, hes atleast garnered attention for being a good defender. Bargs isnt in the same league when it comes to helping and recovering on the glass as Camby, and help defense is an aspect of Bargs defense that I continue to see lauded.


Im not following you here, what did teams do?


http://dougstats.com/08-09.html
You have to compile the #'s and sort out the positions yourself. Which is something I could use alittle help with actually. When it comes to counterpart #'s it adds a great deal of context when you know the matchups. Usually its not a problem, but with Bosh and Bargs, both are listed as PF/C. Which is why I was asking at the top, who usually guarded the KG's and the Duncans. In either event, both the PF and C #'s were terrible, though Bargs individual counterpart #'s were better.


The only negative opinion I hold for anything related to the Raptors are its fanbase. No offense but Id rank them up there with Laker fans when it comes to homeristic propaganda. Just trying to make sense of your guys logic is all.

But still, why is it so negative to point out facts? Or are you deriving the negative sentiment because it upsets you?

First Toronto fans are nothing like LA fans. Not trying to be rude but there has been no bashing and non of us saying Bargs is the best player in the world. We love our teams but we are realistic. As most people have said he has GREAT potential in all aspects because he is only going to get better. He is a decent defender. Bosh is a bit better. Not very much at all. Bargs has gotten so much better. He bulked up a bit last year and I would think he is going to get bigger again. He does not back down which I love. He is tougher than Bosh and no one gives him credit for that. No homo but he could very well be the most improved player this coming season!

pebloemer
07-27-2009, 08:05 PM
First Toronto fans are nothing like LA fans. Not trying to be rude but there has been no bashing and non of us saying Bargs is the best player in the world. We love our teams but we are realistic. As most people have said he has GREAT potential in all aspects because he is only going to get better. He is a decent defender. Bosh is a bit better. Not very much at all. Bargs has gotten so much better. He bulked up a bit last year and I would think he is going to get bigger again. He does not back down which I love. He is tougher than Bosh and no one gives him credit for that. No homo but he could very well be the most improved player this coming season!

Some Raptor's fans are very much like some Lakers fans in the sense that they overrate their own players based on very little evidence, while casting a blind eye to the rest of the league. There are very large population of both fans on PSD which is why people see a lot of biased fans on both sides.

Rapsjaysleafs
07-27-2009, 08:09 PM
We love our teams, but go into an LA thread and say Bynum does not play good D or that he is average. They will rip you a new hole. No one has done that here. Thats all im saying!

pebloemer
07-27-2009, 08:11 PM
We love our teams, but go into an LA thread and say Bynum does not play good D or that he is average. They will rip you a new hole. No one has done that here. Thats all im saying!

I have not tried that. But I have heard ridiculous claims from both fan bases about their players. The quantity of each fan base that does it is not known to me, but it does happen frequently and it does cause vast generalizations to be made.

Rapsjaysleafs
07-27-2009, 08:15 PM
It does of course but every fan base loves there players more than other fans do. We see how far he has come. He was being called Bustnani and being talked about along the lines of Kwame Brown! Wow! All im saying is we love our players but we are for the most part realistic. No one has said he is a great defender, go to the LA one and Bynum "changes the game with his D"
We dont do that ...... as much lol
I do know where you are coming from though.

Chronz
07-27-2009, 08:32 PM
Ill just be up front about it, this is how I tier the best defensive Bigs in the league. Bold the players you think Bargs is better than Defensively.

ELITE:
Dwight
KG
Duncan
Perkins

GREAT
Yao
Okafor
Nene
Varejao
Rasheed

GOOD
Tyson Chandler
Bynum
Pau
Dalemburt
Josh Smith
Ben Wallace/Chuck Hayes (In limited minutes)

Above Average
Camby
Bogut
Jermaine
Birdman
Horford
Oden
McDyess
Kurt Thomas
K-Mart
Udonis
Odom
Diaw
Brand
Shelden Williams
Kwame

Better than average but look worse because of their Team:
Milsap
Al Jefferson
Darko
Foster

Average:
Shaq
Dampier
Kaman
West
Aldridge

Potentially ready to bust out
JvAlee McGee

Im sure there are a few names Im missing, and a couple Ive misplaced, but overall what players arent as good defensively.

Chronz
07-27-2009, 08:50 PM
I mostly agree with the Raptor's representation on this thread. Although I wouldn't say he is an above average defender at the point. I think Toronto fans are quick to defend Bargnani's defensive game because he has

a) Worked hard on improving it last summer
b) Shown visible improvement on the court
c) Shown much more interest and purpose on defense

Sometimes I wonder if these factors lead to fans overrating his defense. If he continues to work as hard as he has I do believe he can be an above average defender, but he needs more strength and practice to get there. It is easier to be optimistic when he has shown these signs. Currently, I think he is average at best. He can make shots more difficult for his opponent, stay out of foul trouble and has decent instincts to get the occasional block. Most Centers in the league can do that too, plus they rebound better.

But I also think if Toronto fans overrate Bargs it is largely in response to other fans underrating him. That's where my discussion about (d) comes in.

d) Gets the bad Rap for Toronto's poor interior defense

Bosh has been viewed over the years as a decent defensive player. Last year he did not show that. The interest did not seem there on defense. But on these forums, it is Bargs that frequently gets bashed.

In addition, Calderon's hamstring injury that he had for most of the season restricted his lateral movement and led to many many blow by's from opposing PG's. If Bargnani comes as help defender, he leaves his man open for a dunk unless the rest of the team rotates with him. The Raptor's have had difficulties with their rotations to say the least. It wasn't until Marion arrived that the team started keeping each other accountable on defense.

This problem (IMO) was also made worse by Parker's tendency to double team and try and get steals. He lost his own man too many times because he was trying to do too much. Kapono was also a black hole on defense.

The team as a whole just played very poor defense all season long. Bargnani was the only player who consistently took pride in that part of his game and showed improvements. Bosh appeared more frustrated or at times complacent about it.

With a new season, new optimism and a full training camp to work with the players, we'll see if the team can make more improvements and show more interest on the defensive end.

Sorry for not responding, when I scroll through the pages I just assume all the long ones are mine, very good breakdown and solid points all around. I can agree with this assessment, I dont think Bosh is a bad defender but he definitely didnt put forth his all this year. The Raps have been decent defensively before, and he played a role if you agree Bargs used to be awful.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-27-2009, 08:53 PM
Why do people think Perkins is a good defender?

Chronz
07-27-2009, 11:51 PM
Why do people think Perkins is a good defender?

Guys with his size and strength tend not to be as mobile, the fact that hes widebodied with a strong core makes him one of the most talented players players in the league for defensive purposes.

When it comes to bigmen there are 4 key factors

Rebounding, Positional Post defense, Helping and Recovering. They are all linked and effect eachother in some way. The best tend to be good at 3, and their frontcourt mates should be good at the 1 to make a good defensive combo. If your bad at any of them it effects your ability to do the others.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-28-2009, 12:07 AM
Guys with his size and strength tend not to be as mobile, the fact that hes widebodied with a strong core makes him one of the most talented players players in the league for defensive purposes.

When it comes to bigmen there are 4 key factors

Rebounding, Positional Post defense, Helping and Recovering. They are all linked and effect eachother in some way. The best tend to be good at 3, and their frontcourt mates should be good at the 1 to make a good defensive combo. If your bad at any of them it effects your ability to do the others.

Were you saying that before Garnett was there?

Perkins wasn't doing anything before Garnett was there. I bet Eddy Curry can do that if Garnett was at PF.

Sometimes players might look good because their partner is very good. It happens all the time.

I don't think he is that good of a defender but if you think so, I guess I can't change your mind.

magikmc
07-28-2009, 01:38 AM
I think Bargs slots in to your "above average" guys...

Chronz
07-28-2009, 03:11 AM
Were you saying that before Garnett was there?
Before KG he was still coming into his own and struggling with foul trouble, kind of like Oden is now remember these guys were young when they entered the league, but even then he was displaying tons of promise. When Ainge extended him for like 3M annually at age 21 I think, I remember thinking this was going to come back and give them a moneyball type of boost. He was always the C's best defender before KG got there and always been their best post defender. He and Al Jefferson wouldve been a great compliment. When KG got there I knew it was going to be a great defensive team because they had all the pieces in place.



Perkins wasn't doing anything before Garnett was there. I bet Eddy Curry can do that if Garnett was at PF.

KG was never on a great defensive team like the C's have been before either, hes weaknesses are also being masked by the presence of quality defenders and looks better alongside them as well.

Besides Perkins came into the league as teen, he took his bruises and rounded out very nicely.


Sometimes players might look good because their partner is very good. It happens all the time.

I don't think he is that good of a defender but if you think so, I guess I can't change your mind.

Maybe ELITE is stretching it abit, but hes very close. Certainly far better than Bargs.

The C's were more than just a good defensive team my friend, they were quite possibly the 3rd or 4th greatest defensive team of all time, you dont accomplish that without a multitude of good defenders. I have some theories towards the kind of players that are influenced the most from certain defensive players, like wings relying on their frontcourt, but 2 frontcourt players like Perk and KG were a match made in heaven. Perkins did the dirty work that KG has never been capable of doing. Even in Minnesota they relied on Ervin Johnson, Olowakandi, or Rasho to guard the quality bigs. KG was the teams most important defender, but Perkins helped his game just as much as KG helped his.

HoopsMachine
07-28-2009, 03:51 AM
Ive always been under the assumption that he was a poor defender, I saw the majority of his career when hes been out of position allegedly at the 3, but there have been a numerous amount of Rap supporters that are claiming hes much improved at the 5, tougher than given credit for, and certainly better than average.
To which I have a few questions

If your a good defender, particularly a bigman, shouldnt your team be atleast decent defensively? How good did bigmen play against your team, how good was the defense with Bargs compared to without.

Bargnani's a solid defender. He improved this past season by getting stronger in the off-season and putting on more muscle. He improved his shot-blocking and holds his own against most opposing big men in the league. Definitely not an anchor for the team defensively yet but Im optimistic about him improving as he did this past season.

cowboyz180
07-28-2009, 12:35 PM
yea, you can be a good defender on a bad defensive team

Raph12
07-28-2009, 04:08 PM
Zo said the same thing when he won it, its why I started this thread actually. When Bill Russel joined the Celtics the teams defensive efficiency shifted dramatically. But these are some great defenders so comparing their impact to Bargs isnt right.

Ive never seen any Rap supporter claim he was a DPOY caliber defender, thats quite obvious that you have to be a great defender to have that kind of pull, but Im trying to define GOODness here. The guy above me gave me great examples, but each one had some kind of strength that justified his selection. Im struggling to find one with Bargs.

I really think hes average borderline below average, and that Bosh is pretty much on par with him.

You hit the nail on the head IMO, I've never considered any Raptors big, good defenders and I live in Toronto and watch the games. If Bosh played good defense, then the comparison to Kevin Garnett would be right on the money, but KG is on a completely different planet compared to Bosh's earthly (avg) defense. And Bargnani I'd consider an avg defender at best if not below avg for a center. If he and Bosh were really as good as Raps fans think they are, Toronto's defensive efficiency wouldn't be in the lower half of the NBA team list.

Raph12
07-28-2009, 04:22 PM
ELITE:
Dwight
Duncan
KG

GREAT
Yao
Okafor
Nene
Perkins
Rasheed

GOOD
Tyson Chandler
Bynum
Pau
Dalemburt
Josh Smith
Birdman

Above Average
Camby
Bogut
Jermaine
Horford
Oden
McDyess
Kurt Thomas
K-Mart
Udonis
Odom
Diaw
Brand
Varejao

Better than average but look worse because of their Team:
Milsap
Al Jefferson
Shelden Williams

Average:
Dampier
Kaman
West
Aldridge
Ben Wallace/Chuck Hayes (In limited minutes)
Bosh
Bargs
Kwame
Darko
Foster
Shaq

IMO this is more like it, those are 4 guys I wouldn't choose over Bosh/Bargs on defense