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View Full Version : #8 PF In the NBA Today: Volume 2 Vote OFF (Jamison or West)



Mile High Champ
07-20-2009, 01:42 PM
He guys, in the last poll, Jamison and West tied. This happened once last year as well and we had a vote off between the two to see who would get the seed up for grabs. Please vote in the poll and we can carry on with the 9th spot tomorrow.

Cheers

MHC

bogdanrom
07-20-2009, 01:44 PM
Antawn Jamison>David West

S-Dot
07-20-2009, 01:46 PM
my fellow tarheel antawn jamison

black1605
07-20-2009, 01:48 PM
Jamison...I forgot to vote in the last one, could have broken the tie

dolfan720
07-20-2009, 01:50 PM
jamison all the way!

North Yorker
07-20-2009, 01:55 PM
West.

ManRam
07-20-2009, 01:58 PM
Jamison. I think both put up numbers that make them seem better than they are...but Jamison is better than West.

B.JenningsMVP
07-20-2009, 02:02 PM
Gotta go w/ the former Dub.

JordansBulls
07-20-2009, 02:07 PM
How is this close? David West by a mile. Has Jamison even made an alsltar team or done something in the playoffs?

still1ballin
07-20-2009, 02:11 PM
How is this close? David West by a mile. Has Jamison even made an alsltar team or done something in the playoffs?

Jamison has made an all star, and if it wasn't for his team being injured all the time, they would of made a lot of the noise in the playoffs in the previous years. Jamison is a solid 20 and 9 guy, and keep in mind, Jamison doesn't have a Chris Paul

Unruly Fan
07-20-2009, 02:14 PM
Jamison. Slightly better than west & can hit the 3 pnt shot.

bogdanrom
07-20-2009, 02:14 PM
How is this close? David West by a mile. Has Jamison even made an alsltar team or done something in the playoffs?

You're right. How is this close? You know why it's because of people like you, who don't know anything about basketball. Antawn Jamison is way better than David West.
Scoring-Antawn Jamison
Defense- Equally bad
Rebounding-Jamison

Jamison does everything better.

Has Jamison even made an allstar team?
YES Twice

Has he done something in the playoffs?
Oh you mean apart from averaging 32 PPG, 9.8 RPG one year, and 16.8 PPG, and 12 RPG another year.

Jamison>West

EastCoastBaller
07-20-2009, 02:15 PM
jamsion

B.JenningsMVP
07-20-2009, 02:16 PM
Jamison has made an all star, and if it wasn't for his team being injured all the time, they would of made a lot of the noise in the playoffs in the previous years. Jamison is a solid 20 and 9 guy, and keep in mind, Jamison doesn't have a Chris Paul

:clap:

EastCoastBaller
07-20-2009, 02:16 PM
How is this close? David West by a mile. Has Jamison even made an alsltar team or done something in the playoffs?

Dude obviously you never watched a Wizard game.

Jamison>>>West

B.JenningsMVP
07-20-2009, 02:17 PM
OH AND HAS WEST PUT UP 50 PTS. IN TWO STRAIGHT GAMES???
I think not :D

CELTICS4LYFE
07-20-2009, 02:29 PM
Jamison, west was not a name till paul got drafted

Chronz
07-20-2009, 02:46 PM
Can we just eliminate the votes of those mentioning CP3. It only exposes their lack of understanding for the game.

Antawn could very well be the better player, but it has nothing to do with CP3.

Also those defending Antawn can someone tell me what makes him better, when hes quite possibly the worst "star" defender at his position, of all time? The teams hes been on wouldve been so much better if not for him being such a pansy defensively. Defense was the only thing holding his teams back for so long.

Kakaroach
07-20-2009, 02:53 PM
Jamison. West should be #9 IMO.

slaker619
07-20-2009, 02:54 PM
D-West

1WorthyLakerFan
07-20-2009, 02:56 PM
As a Laker Fan, I would rather see Jamison any day of the week over West. With Jamison, I know my team doesn't need to worry about him, plus I know my guy will go off on his subpar defense. With West, I need to worry about foul trouble (on my guy), and I know that he can bring it defensively. If you have watched these guys play for years (as I have), you know it isn't even close. West>>>>Jamison.

azkarraga
07-20-2009, 02:57 PM
jamison.

what54!?
07-20-2009, 02:59 PM
west

IversonIsKrazy
07-20-2009, 03:05 PM
Jamison is a lot better than West.

Jamison can score a bit more than West, even though Jamison is like the 3rd option after Gilbert & Butler, while West is right after CP3. Jamison is a lot a lot better rebounder than West. And their defense is equally as bad.

1WorthyLakerFan
07-20-2009, 03:06 PM
It is not only offense that makes one better IMO. West is 10 times the defender Jamison is...As another person said, Jamison is probably the worst "Star" defender (let's not talk about Amare) in the league. West is an above par defender. Again, if you look at the whole package (not just scoring and 3 pt shooting), West wins (not by a landslide, but he wins nonetheless).

dre1990
07-20-2009, 03:06 PM
Antawn Jamison

jimbobjarree
07-20-2009, 03:10 PM
david west sucks, he's so over rated

Vidball
07-20-2009, 03:11 PM
Jamison for sure.

1WorthyLakerFan
07-20-2009, 03:14 PM
Jamison is a lot better than West.

Jamison can score a bit more than West, even though Jamison is like the 3rd option after Gilbert & Butler, while West is right after CP3. Jamison is a lot a lot better rebounder than West. And their defense is equally as bad.


Jamison is Not "a lot better rebounder". Jamison avg 8.9 rpg last year, while West avg 8.5rpg.

blujaysrock
07-20-2009, 03:17 PM
Jamison all the way

knickerbockerny
07-20-2009, 03:18 PM
david west over jamison.

Chronz
07-20-2009, 03:35 PM
Jamison is a lot better than West.

Jamison can score a bit more than West, even though Jamison is like the 3rd option after Gilbert & Butler, while West is right after CP3. Jamison is a lot a lot better rebounder than West. And their defense is equally as bad.
This whole option on offense thing is so annoying. It doesnt tell you squat, you can be a 4th option player who gets more touches than a 1st option player, it all depends on your game type. And no their defense are most definitely not equal, and hes not a way better rebounder, in fact Id argue West is the better boardman, but its close so who cares.

Chronz
07-20-2009, 03:38 PM
Antawns Team Defensive Efficiency

99 10th (His Rookie Year)
00 27th
01 28th
02 28th
03 29th
04 26th
(Mavs year, GSW got better defensively immediately following his departure, whereas the Mavs were better before, and after his arrival.

05 19th (Wiz Era)
06 22nd
07 28th
08 24th
09 29th


Team Defensive Differential W/Out Antawn
09: -2.2
08: +3.3
07: -3.9
06: -2.6
05: +0.5
04: -0.4
03: -4.8

Throughout his entire career, his teams have tended to fair better without him on the floor, defensively. This isnt to say hes a bad player, or that its all his fault, some of those - years, he had a halfway decent adjusted differential, but for the most part hes been a horrible defender. Does it make him a bad player? In my eyes it doesnt make him an All-Star, and neither is West IMO, but when a comparison is so close like West and Antawn, you cant go with the guy who doesnt offer much outside the stat sheet ahead of a guy like West.


It is not only offense that makes one better IMO. West is 10 times the defender Jamison is...As another person said, Jamison is probably the worst "Star" defender (let's not talk about Amare) in the league. West is an above par defender. Again, if you look at the whole package (not just scoring and 3 pt shooting), West wins (not by a landslide, but he wins nonetheless).
Amare has the size to adequately defend the post and get away as a Center, the reason they talk down his defense is because he has the ability to do so much more. Not because hes the worst defender in the league, that is reserved for Antawn.

bogdanrom
07-20-2009, 05:56 PM
Can we just eliminate the votes of those mentioning CP3. It only exposes their lack of understanding for the game.

Antawn could very well be the better player, but it has nothing to do with CP3.

Also those defending Antawn can someone tell me what makes him better, when hes quite possibly the worst "star" defender at his position, of all time? The teams hes been on wouldve been so much better if not for him being such a pansy defensively. Defense was the only thing holding his teams back for so long.

You talk about Jamison being bad at defense like West is an First Team All-Defense selection. Let's face it both are bad at defense, you could say West is a tiny bit better, but that's it.

Why should we eliminated the fact the West plays with arguably the best PG in the game right now, but not only that a guy that has averaged at least 11 APG the last two seasons. CP3 is a guy who makes people around him better. CP3 is a guy who made David West better. So let's take out CP3 like you said and Jamison is a way better scorer than West ever would be. Rebounding wise Jamison is better. West has never averaged over 9 RPG, while Jamison done that twice.

And when it comes to tougher competition,the playoffs, Jamison averages 19.2 PPG, 7.8 RPG while David West averages 16.0 PPG, and 7.0 RPG.

Also stop with the scoring is everything. Okay it's not everything but it's the most important thing in basketball. The team that has the most points wins every time, the team that has the most rebounds, or steals, doesn't.

Jamison is better than West, not by a lot, but better. West is definitely #9 though.

alexander_37
07-20-2009, 06:05 PM
One thing that sticks out to me is West's freethrow shooting, for a big man ... hell for anyone he is a great freethrow shooter, it may not be a huge deal but those extra 2-3 points can make or break a game.

MSU Spartans313
07-20-2009, 06:17 PM
Jamison is much better than West.

MSU Spartans313
07-20-2009, 06:24 PM
It is not only offense that makes one better IMO. West is 10 times the defender Jamison is...As another person said, Jamison is probably the worst "Star" defender (let's not talk about Amare) in the league. West is an above par defender. Again, if you look at the whole package (not just scoring and 3 pt shooting), West wins (not by a landslide, but he wins nonetheless).

OK Jamison doesnt have D I think we all know that, but West is just as much of a bum on D as Jamison is. If you look at the whole package scoring rebounding steals 3 point shooting and lets not forget leadership, then i think it is fair to say that Jamison is the superior player.

GCOOKIE7
07-20-2009, 06:33 PM
How is this close? David West by a mile. Has Jamison even made an alsltar team or done something in the playoffs?

This isn't the JordansBulls that I know

zambo4president
07-20-2009, 07:23 PM
You're right. How is this close? You know why it's because of people like you, who don't know anything about basketball. Antawn Jamison is way better than David West.
Scoring-Antawn Jamison
Defense- Equally bad
Rebounding-Jamison

Jamison does everything better.

Has Jamison even made an allstar team?
YES Twice

Has he done something in the playoffs?
Oh you mean apart from averaging 32 PPG, 9.8 RPG one year, and 16.8 PPG, and 12 RPG another year.

Jamison>West

:clap:

cowboyz180
07-20-2009, 07:42 PM
jamison

mikantsass
07-20-2009, 07:51 PM
Its clearly Jamison

GSW fan
07-20-2009, 10:03 PM
jamison

TheKing23
07-20-2009, 11:33 PM
Jamison has a better overall game, can stretch the defense and is an excellent rebounder.

Chronz
07-20-2009, 11:56 PM
You talk about Jamison being bad at defense like West is an First Team All-Defense selection. Let's face it both are bad at defense, you could say West is a tiny bit better, but that's it.
No Im talking about Jamison because he is the absolute worst star defender at his position. West is strong enough to guard the post, mobile enough not to get burned by PnR, and has some sense of how to help his teammates. Watch the WCSF, he and Chandler took turns on Duncan and did adequate, Antawn has never had success guarding anyone, and his help defense is even worse.


Why should we eliminated the fact the West plays with arguably the best PG in the game right now, but not only that a guy that has averaged at least 11 APG the last two seasons. CP3 is a guy who makes people around him better. CP3 is a guy who made David West better.
This argument is played out, Ill find you the link to my old posts, but in short, people who usually point it out, have no idea exactly how they impact each others game, refuse to acknowledge the symbiotic relationship and exaggerate the influence they have on one another.


So let's take out CP3 like you said and Jamison is a way better scorer than West ever would be.
Really, WAY BETTER? I dont deal with non-descriptive claims. Tell me, how much and how efficiently would he score without CP3?



Rebounding wise Jamison is better. West has never averaged over 9 RPG, while Jamison done that twice.

Rebounding% is a more precise measurement of rebounding prowess, and they arent that far apart, the difference is that West plays on a good rebounding team, while Antawn plays on a ****** one.


And when it comes to tougher competition,the playoffs, Jamison averages 19.2 PPG, 7.8 RPG while David West averages 16.0 PPG, and 7.0 RPG.

If thats the extent of your statistical analysis then you got alot of work to do.


Also stop with the scoring is everything. Okay it's not everything but it's the most important thing in basketball. The team that has the most points wins every time, the team that has the most rebounds, or steals, doesn't.

Jamison is better than West, not by a lot, but better. West is definitely #9 though.

The team who scores more efficiently and prevents the opposing team from doing the same wins. West can play D, Antawn doesnt even know how.

bogdanrom
07-21-2009, 12:50 AM
Chronz

No Im talking about Jamison because he is the absolute worst star defender at his position. West is strong enough to guard the post, mobile enough not to get burned by PnR, and has some sense of how to help his teammates. Watch the WCSF, he and Chandler took turns on Duncan and did adequate, Antawn has never had success guarding anyone, and his help defense is even worse.

Absolute worst star defender at his position? First I don't even know what you're talking about. Star defender?!? Secondly the difference in both of their difference is not a big as you think. West is a little better at defense but not by a lot.


This argument is played out, Ill find you the link to my old posts, but in short, people who usually point it out, have no idea exactly how they impact each others game, refuse to acknowledge the symbiotic relationship and exaggerate the influence they have on one another.


How exactly is this argument played out? The year CP3 got drafted to the Hornets, West's numbers went up from 6.2 PPG to 17.1 PPG, from 4.3 PPG to 7.4 RPG. Some has to do with more playing time, but a lot of has to do with the addition of point guard who is excellent at distributing the ball at the right time. Why do Lebron, and Kobe want to play with players like Kidd, and CP3 that are talented PG with extremely good dribbling and passing skills? Because it makes the game easier. It easier when the PG delivers the ball to you under the basket for a lay-up, another is when the PG gives you the ball at the top of the key and you have to either shoot or drive. Having CP3 is a strong argument. Deal with it.


Really, WAY BETTER? I dont deal with non-descriptive claims. Tell me, how much and how efficiently would he score without CP3?

Yes way better. And if you don't see that, you need to check your eyes. Jamison can extend it all the way to the 3 point line. West cannot. In the post both are pretty good, Jamison has a way more unorthodox post game but it is unstoppable at times. Jamison is a guy who can also take other PF including West off the drible and take it all the way to the basket.


Rebounding% is a more precise measurement of rebounding prowess, and they arent that far apart, the difference is that West plays on a good rebounding team, while Antawn plays on a ****** one.


Good rebounding team? With Chandler or without him, West had the same rebounding numbers. and if you have a bad rebounding team then wouldn't the other team get more rebounds than not a player from you're own team. You're argument if flawed.


If thats the extent of your statistical analysis then you got alot of work to do.

What are you trying to say? That stats aren't everything. I'm tired of inane people saying that. Stats are the most important part of comparing two players or two teams. A 20 PPG, 8 RPG, 2 APG is always going to be better than a 15 PPG, 7 RPG, 2 APG guy. Stat are the most essential tool when we contrast two players because it's the most basic element of the comparison. Both players start with 0 points, 0 rebounds, etc. Both players have 48 minutes to play. Both players will face the same number of players, and also the same players.


The team who scores more efficiently and prevents the opposing team from doing the same wins. West can play D, Antawn doesnt even know how.

No the team that scores the most points wins. There no way in hell you can disprove me on that. I have no idea why you can even challenge that. West can barely play defense. He is not a whole lot better than Jamison.

Defense is basically you're only argument in why West is better than Jamison. And that's why, sir, you're wrong.

For the last time.
Jamison>West

obrpunk
07-21-2009, 02:09 AM
jamison, hands down

Chronz
07-21-2009, 03:06 AM
Chronz
Absolute worst star defender at his position? First I don't even know what you're talking about. Star defender?!? Secondly the difference in both of their difference is not a big as you think. West is a little better at defense but not by a lot.
Im talking about players who are either perceived to be stars or are good enough to warrant the status, aside from the defensive end. Among guys who are primary offensive threats, hes the worst defender.



How exactly is this argument played out?
Because it has no validity to it.


The year CP3 got drafted to the Hornets, West's numbers went up from 6.2 PPG to 17.1 PPG, from 4.3 PPG to 7.4 RPG. Some has to do with more playing time, but a lot of has to do with the addition of point guard who is excellent at distributing the ball at the right time.

That tends to happen as players develop. 05-06 season woudve happened whether CP3 was there or not. A more analytical take would be to take every possession played out on that very same season, W and W/Out CP3 on the floor with him. His usage and efficiency was very much the same regardless of who was running the point with him, be it CP3, Claxton. There is a slight uptick in West's FG% and FT/a rate, with CP3 next to him, but thats exactly what Im saying. West would still be West with or without CP3.

If you look break down CP3's numbers with West on the floor his rookie year, you'll find an uptick in his assists and a decrease in his turnovers, having another weapon makes CP3 more deadly. Yet should we take that away from him because he wouldnt be as good without West? Again its symbiosis, thats why its played out.


Why do Lebron, and Kobe want to play with players like Kidd, and CP3 that are talented PG with extremely good dribbling and passing skills? Because it makes the game easier. It easier when the PG delivers the ball to you under the basket for a lay-up, another is when the PG gives you the ball at the top of the key and you have to either shoot or drive. Having CP3 is a strong argument. Deal with it.

I have dealt with it for awhile, Ive yet to see anyone make a strong argument for it.


Yes way better. And if you don't see that, you need to check your eyes. Jamison can extend it all the way to the 3 point line. West cannot. In the post both are pretty good, Jamison has a way more unorthodox post game but it is unstoppable at times. Jamison is a guy who can also take other PF including West off the drible and take it all the way to the basket.

Wow check my eyes, thats real original. West does not need to extend his range to be a superior player, and for all your talk about playmaking, Antawn is actually assisted on a higher% of his jumpshots. Jamison can be alot of things offensively but he cant do squat to stop them on the other end. West can, that is the difference.




Good rebounding team? With Chandler or without him, West had the same rebounding numbers.
Yes a good rebounding team. What are you confused about? With Chandler they are better, without him, West #'s are higher so what exactly are you talking about.


and if you have a bad rebounding team then wouldn't the other team get more rebounds than not a player from you're own team. You're argument if flawed.

Its true, the difference rebounders have around you is almost always negligible Ive argued this before, but the trend is that there are more rebounds available to you, particularly on the defensive end, if you are the sole rebounder. For example, pairing Camby and Kaman in the frontcourt, boosts the teams rebounding efficiency because there are less for the opposition, the counter consequence is that the individuals rebounding #'s are more thoroughly spread out, you account for this by acknowledging their teams defensive rebounding efficiency. Its more impressive to be a good rebounder on a good rebounding team, than it is to be a good rebounder on a bad rebounding team, my argument is sound.


What are you trying to say? That stats aren't everything. I'm tired of inane people saying that. Stats are the most important part of comparing two players or two teams. A 20 PPG, 8 RPG, 2 APG is always going to be better than a 15 PPG, 7 RPG, 2 APG guy. Stat are the most essential tool when we contrast two players because it's the most basic element of the comparison. Both players start with 0 points, 0 rebounds, etc. Both players have 48 minutes to play. Both players will face the same number of players, and also the same players.

Im not trying to say that at all, you couldnt be more lost in the matter. Notice the part where I said STATISTICAL analysis, meaning dig deaper in your analysis. No a 208 guy can be a lesser player than the 15-7 guy once you establish the efficiency, and possession usage of said averages. Again your stuck on step 1 and not seeing the full picture. Im not saying dont use stats, Im saying use the best ones available.


No the team that scores the most points wins. There no way in hell you can disprove me on that. I have no idea why you can even challenge that. West can barely play defense. He is not a whole lot better than Jamison.

Ill walk you through it, you accomplish this goal by being more efficient and holding the other teams efficiency down. West plays tough solid defense, Antawn is the worst at his position and has always been a liability.



Defense is basically you're only argument in why West is better than Jamison. And that's why, sir, you're wrong.

For the last time.
Jamison>West

My only argument? Hardly... for the last time.... lol.. Im sure you wish it were true.

bogdanrom
07-21-2009, 02:51 PM
Im talking about players who are either perceived to be stars or are good enough to warrant the status, aside from the defensive end. Among guys who are primary offensive threats, hes the worst defender.



Because it has no validity to it.


That tends to happen as players develop. 05-06 season woudve happened whether CP3 was there or not. A more analytical take would be to take every possession played out on that very same season, W and W/Out CP3 on the floor with him. His usage and efficiency was very much the same regardless of who was running the point with him, be it CP3, Claxton. There is a slight uptick in West's FG% and FT/a rate, with CP3 next to him, but thats exactly what Im saying. West would still be West with or without CP3.

If you look break down CP3's numbers with West on the floor his rookie year, you'll find an uptick in his assists and a decrease in his turnovers, having another weapon makes CP3 more deadly. Yet should we take that away from him because he wouldnt be as good without West? Again its symbiosis, thats why its played out.


I have dealt with it for awhile, Ive yet to see anyone make a strong argument for it.


Wow check my eyes, thats real original. West does not need to extend his range to be a superior player, and for all your talk about playmaking, Antawn is actually assisted on a higher% of his jumpshots. Jamison can be alot of things offensively but he cant do squat to stop them on the other end. West can, that is the difference.




Yes a good rebounding team. What are you confused about? With Chandler they are better, without him, West #'s are higher so what exactly are you talking about.


Its true, the difference rebounders have around you is almost always negligible Ive argued this before, but the trend is that there are more rebounds available to you, particularly on the defensive end, if you are the sole rebounder. For example, pairing Camby and Kaman in the frontcourt, boosts the teams rebounding efficiency because there are less for the opposition, the counter consequence is that the individuals rebounding #'s are more thoroughly spread out, you account for this by acknowledging their teams defensive rebounding efficiency. Its more impressive to be a good rebounder on a good rebounding team, than it is to be a good rebounder on a bad rebounding team, my argument is sound.


Im not trying to say that at all, you couldnt be more lost in the matter. Notice the part where I said STATISTICAL analysis, meaning dig deaper in your analysis. No a 208 guy can be a lesser player than the 15-7 guy once you establish the efficiency, and possession usage of said averages. Again your stuck on step 1 and not seeing the full picture. Im not saying dont use stats, Im saying use the best ones available.


Ill walk you through it, you accomplish this goal by being more efficient and holding the other teams efficiency down. West plays tough solid defense, Antawn is the worst at his position and has always been a liability.



My only argument? Hardly... for the last time.... lol.. Im sure you wish it were true.

Listen I you're never going to change my mind and I'm not going to change your mind. I'm just wasting my time trying to proved something. You mention a bunch of things that are purely opinion based and without any factual backing Every time you mention how Jamison does something you mention his "liability" on defense. That is you're only point. The other stuff is pointless. Counting out CP3 because that argument is played out? The fact that he is on a better rebounding team? (only by 2 rebounds). Assisted on a higher % of his jumpshots? Oh and by the way West rebounding numbers, when Chandler is not there, are higher by .5. Yes a whopping half a rebound.
Again if you're not going to provide real stats and not made up opinion based things you've seen then I 'm not even going to pay attention to it.
The point of this was to prove in the end that one player is better overall than the other. And you have not done that. You always mention Jamison's defense.
BTW you also mention efficiency a bunch of times. Yet you never brought up stats or information that proves all of that. You're just implying things that you've seen. And CP3 did have a lot to do with the improvement of David West. He created shots and the opposing defense focused a lot more on CP3.

Chronz
07-21-2009, 05:21 PM
You mention a bunch of things that are purely opinion based and without any factual backing
Like what?


Every time you mention how Jamison does something you mention his "liability" on defense. That is you're only point. The other stuff is pointless.
Its not my only point though luckily for me its a great one, when 2 players are so close statistically, its the intangibles that separate the 2. As we have seen, Antawn doesnt do much outside the statsheet, in fact hes the worst player outside of contributing things that dont translate so well on the statsheet, things like defense.


Counting out CP3 because that argument is played out?
Yes didnt you read why its played out. The people who mention him tend not to know what theyre talking about.



The fact that he is on a better rebounding team? (only by 2 rebounds).
What are you talking about, are you still using rudimentary stats? The Hornets corralled 75% of all available rebounds good for a top5-7 rating, the Wizards were well below average at 71%, good enough for a bottom5 ranking defensively.


Assisted on a higher % of his jumpshots?
Yes, what dont you understand?


Oh and by the way West rebounding numbers, when Chandler is not there, are higher by .5. Yes a whopping half a rebound.
Who told you that lie? I think your confused with the context of your own question, that was with or without Chandler.



Again if you're not going to provide real stats and not made up opinion based things you've seen then I 'm not even going to pay attention to it.

Then I suggest you re-read all of my posts, Ive used REAL STATS.


The point of this was to prove in the end that one player is better overall than the other. And you have not done that. You always mention Jamison's defense.
BTW you also mention efficiency a bunch of times. Yet you never brought up stats or information that proves all of that. You're just implying things that you've seen.
I usually let people try to disprove me, but if you cant even do that, then tell me what have I said, that you dont believe to be true, and Ill post the stats. People usually take my word when it comes to stats.


And CP3 did have a lot to do with the improvement of David West. He created shots and the opposing defense focused a lot more on CP3.

Again it was symbiosis. And you have no idea how minimal of an impact they have on eachother. The stats dont lie.

zo#33
07-21-2009, 06:50 PM
Chronz ftw

mrblisterdundee
07-21-2009, 06:57 PM
David West is dependent on Chris Paul, whereas Antawn Jamison has done well as the leader of the Wizards (when Caron Butler and Gilbert Arenas were injured).

Nighthawk
07-21-2009, 08:00 PM
David West is dependent on Chris Paul, whereas Antawn Jamison has done well as the leader of the Wizards (when Caron Butler and Gilbert Arenas were injured).

Hes done well?? Leading the Wiz into the playoffs.....


I rather West any day of the week.

Chronz
07-21-2009, 08:27 PM
David West is dependent on Chris Paul, whereas Antawn Jamison has done well as the leader of the Wizards (when Caron Butler and Gilbert Arenas were injured).

West is no more dependent on CP3, than CP3 is of West.

bogdanrom
07-22-2009, 12:51 AM
Like what?


Its not my only point though luckily for me its a great one, when 2 players are so close statistically, its the intangibles that separate the 2. As we have seen, Antawn doesnt do much outside the statsheet, in fact hes the worst player outside of contributing things that dont translate so well on the statsheet, things like defense.


Yes didnt you read why its played out. The people who mention him tend not to know what theyre talking about.



What are you talking about, are you still using rudimentary stats? The Hornets corralled 75% of all available rebounds good for a top5-7 rating, the Wizards were well below average at 71%, good enough for a bottom5 ranking defensively.


Yes, what dont you understand?


Who told you that lie? I think your confused with the context of your own question, that was with or without Chandler.



Then I suggest you re-read all of my posts, Ive used REAL STATS.


I usually let people try to disprove me, but if you cant even do that, then tell me what have I said, that you dont believe to be true, and Ill post the stats. People usually take my word when it comes to stats.


Again it was symbiosis. And you have no idea how minimal of an impact they have on eachother. The stats dont lie.

You're really want to keep this going. Ok that's fine. This is fun for me, until people get personal :cry: (but you haven't done that so it's ok) The matter of fact is that Antawn horrible defense is not enough to give West the lead in this. Antawn is a better offensive player than West. And it's not that close.

Jamison has a higher Efficiency Field Goal Percentage (.507) to West's (.474).

Jamison has a higher True Shooting Percentage (.549) to West's (.540).

Jamison has higher PER (20.6) to West's (18.9).

Jamison has a higher Total Rebound Percentage (13.7) to West's (13.1). Same for defensive and offensive rebounds. Jamison is better.

Jamison also contributed to more wins. 8.1 to West's 7.4.

And now to prove that West is not a lot better than Jamison at defense.
Steal Percentage: West-.9 Jamison-1.6
Block Percentage: West-1.9 Jamison-1.6

It's clear that they are both great players and that it is a tough and close comparison, but Jamison does a little better all the time. And about the CP3 argument. I agree that it is a kind of symbiotic relationship, where he needs a player who can finish, but having a great player and PG will definitely help you establish your game. A PG who can give you the ball where you can do the most damage at, where you feel more comfortable at. That's what a guy like Chris Paul, Steve Nash, and Deron Williams do for you. Plus they take on a lot of the defensive focus, allowing West to more comfortably adjust to his game.

Chronz
07-22-2009, 05:37 AM
You're really want to keep this going. Ok that's fine. This is fun for me, until people get personal :cry: (but you haven't done that so it's ok)
Good thing, I was about to wonder how the hell I made it personal, bu dont cross the line, and neither will I. Of course I want to keep this going, its the only reason I stay on this site, that and the colorful commentary from the mods.



The matter of fact is that Antawn horrible defense is not enough to give West the lead in this. Antawn is a better offensive player than West. And it's not that close.

Jamison has a higher Efficiency Field Goal Percentage (.507) to West's (.474).

Jamison has a higher True Shooting Percentage (.549) to West's (.540).

Jamison has higher PER (20.6) to West's (18.9).

Jamison has a higher Total Rebound Percentage (13.7) to West's (13.1). Same for defensive and offensive rebounds. Jamison is better.

Jamison also contributed to more wins. 8.1 to West's 7.4.
Woah, calm down there cowboy. Your throwing out alot of noise, when a minute ago it seemed as if youve never heard of these stats. Jamison is more efficient from the field, but the fact that theyre TS% are nearly identical (yet you call not close?) tell me both are adept scorers. Still your point is made, Antawn is a better offensive player, the fact that he can hit jumpers keeps his turnover rate down, and despite playing on the perimeter he still rebounds well enough on the offensive glass to not give West any advantage there. This is evident in their respective Offensive RTG. Jamison puts up the better stats, but look at the differences. If you think thats not even close, then you dont know much about these stats. Im not saying Antawn doesnt have better #'s, but there are a few variables you have to account for. Like I mentioned his rebounding is abit misleading given the fact that hes never been a good defensive rebounding team.

WinShares are a nice stat, but not really conclusive until the players career, or atleast a specific stage in his career comes to a close. Even then your still not breaking it down. WinShares are a cumulative stat, on a per minute or even per game basis the gap narrows abit.

You cited a PER difference of like 1.7, well the counterpart PER for both players is 18.6 to 16.6, and West actually guards opposing bigs routinely, and played out of position for much of the year with Chandler hurt. At the 4, there is no question West is better defensively, the offense makes it close.



And now to prove that West is not a lot better than Jamison at defense.
Steal Percentage: West-.9 Jamison-1.6
Block Percentage: West-1.9 Jamison-1.6

You realize your saying that your proving whos better at defense by measuring steals and blocks right. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds, Im a stat guy, but even I know defense requires more insight than that.


It's clear that they are both great players and that it is a tough and close comparison, but Jamison does a little better all the time.
About the only thing we agree on, it could go either way. Im just sick of the BS excuses people make.


And about the CP3 argument. I agree that it is a kind of symbiotic relationship, where he needs a player who can finish, but having a great player and PG will definitely help you establish your game. A PG who can give you the ball where you can do the most damage at, where you feel more comfortable at. That's what a guy like Chris Paul, Steve Nash, and Deron Williams do for you. Plus they take on a lot of the defensive focus, allowing West to more comfortably adjust to his game.

West plays his game regardless of whos around him, he still plays the same way. Players like him and Antawn will do their jobs regardless. And like I said before, Jamison was actually assisted on a higher% of his shot attempts. A guy like CP3 can do things to make your life harder as well. Again unless you know how much of a difference the players make, you shouldnt comment on it. And unless the difference with a given player is substantial, it doesnt need to be mentioned, especially when both players thrive because of it.

bogdanrom
07-30-2009, 07:23 PM
[QUOTE]Good thing, I was about to wonder how the hell I made it personal, bu dont cross the line, and neither will I. Of course I want to keep this going, its the only reason I stay on this site, that and the colorful commentary from the mods.

Haha good then.


Woah, calm down there cowboy. Your throwing out alot of noise, when a minute ago it seemed as if youve never heard of these stats. Jamison is more efficient from the field, but the fact that theyre TS% are nearly identical (yet you call not close?) tell me both are adept scorers. Still your point is made, Antawn is a better offensive player, the fact that he can hit jumpers keeps his turnover rate down, and despite playing on the perimeter he still rebounds well enough on the offensive glass to not give West any advantage there. This is evident in their respective Offensive RTG. Jamison puts up the better stats, but look at the differences. If you think thats not even close, then you dont know much about these stats. Im not saying Antawn doesnt have better #'s, but there are a few variables you have to account for. Like I mentioned his rebounding is abit misleading given the fact that hes never been a good defensive rebounding team.

Well I just wanted to show you that no matter what stats I use Jamison always comes up on top. I'm not saying that Jamison is way better than West. Actually looking at these stats has made me think they're about the same player minus a point or two but Jamison is a little better than West, and that is all that I'm saying


WinShares are a nice stat, but not really conclusive until the players career, or atleast a specific stage in his career comes to a close. Even then your still not breaking it down. WinShares are a cumulative stat, on a per minute or even per game basis the gap narrows abit.

I just wanted to show how important Jamison is to his team and also that means he receives more pressure.


You cited a PER difference of like 1.7, well the counterpart PER for both players is 18.6 to 16.6, and West actually guards opposing bigs routinely, and played out of position for much of the year with Chandler hurt. At the 4, there is no question West is better defensively, the offense makes it close.

Again really close stats but Jamison's are better(even if they're by a little). Yes West is better at playing defense than Jamison, but in my opinion Jamison's offensive advantage overtakes that.



You realize your saying that your proving whos better at defense by measuring steals and blocks right. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds, Im a stat guy, but even I know defense requires more insight than that.


I'm just trying to say that West is not that much better at defense than Jamison.


About the only thing we agree on, it could go either way. Im just sick of the BS excuses people make.

What BS excuses?


West plays his game regardless of whos around him, he still plays the same way. Players like him and Antawn will do their jobs regardless. And like I said before, Jamison was actually assisted on a higher% of his shot attempts. A guy like CP3 can do things to make your life harder as well. Again unless you know how much of a difference the players make, you shouldnt comment on it. And unless the difference with a given player is substantial, it doesnt need to be mentioned, especially when both players thrive because of it.

Well of course both are going to thrive, but the important thing is to remember who is principal person in this equation. And that is CP3. You cannot deny that playing with a PG like Paul, Deron, Nash or Kidd will help your game so much. If you think not then why do see all the top players requesting trades for these players.

Vinny642
07-30-2009, 07:50 PM
West, still underrated :pity:

lorenz00
07-30-2009, 08:52 PM
west because his name is west

BlondeBomber41
07-30-2009, 09:03 PM
Dont bring back old *** threads, its so annoying.

WoodbridgeSkins
07-30-2009, 09:13 PM
You're right. How is this close? You know why it's because of people like you, who don't know anything about basketball. Antawn Jamison is way better than David West.
Scoring-Antawn Jamison
Defense- Equally bad
Rebounding-Jamison

Jamison does everything better.

Has Jamison even made an allstar team?
YES Twice

Has he done something in the playoffs?
Oh you mean apart from averaging 32 PPG, 9.8 RPG one year, and 16.8 PPG, and 12 RPG another year.

Jamison>West

Eat that man alive!

Jamison>>>>>>West

JJ81
07-30-2009, 09:16 PM
this is no question

bogdanrom
07-31-2009, 06:15 PM
Dont bring back old *** threads, its so annoying.

If you don't like them then don't ******* comment then. You are not forced to comment on every thread that is brought back. Douche. Plus this is between me and Chronz.