PDA

View Full Version : Defense + Mark Teixeira



Driven
07-03-2009, 11:59 PM
I honestly do not know much about defensive sabermetrics. A crash course on some stats would be nice, but I'd also like to know how Mark Teixeira's defense is rated at a value of -2.0 on Fan Graphs.

Gigantes4Life
07-04-2009, 05:43 AM
Well Tex has generally been an average defender throughout his career, although his seasons have been very inconsistent.

I can't explain UZR very well, as the primer for it is extremely long, but what the hell.

UZR measures how well a player plays at his position in relation to everyone else, and it measures range and errors, and then also arm for outfielders, and double play runs for infielders.

Teixeira's range last year was a career high, and that's something I can't explain. But basically, he gets to fewer balls than the average 1B.

NYK Lebron NYK
07-04-2009, 12:09 PM
There is no good defensive saber stat. They are all flawed. UZR is the king of the trailer park

Jilly Bohnson
07-04-2009, 12:23 PM
There is no good defensive saber stat. They are all flawed. UZR is the king of the trailer park

Agreed. UZR is probably the best but it's still pretty flawed, it's like the prettiest girl at an Inner Beauty Pageant.

Driven
07-04-2009, 12:56 PM
I just have a hard time believing that Tex is a below average defensive first baseman. I understand his range isn't that great, but I just feel he's saved Jeter and company so many errors.

C1Bman88
07-04-2009, 01:35 PM
I just have a hard time believing that Tex is a below average defensive first baseman. I understand his range isn't that great, but I just feel he's saved Jeter and company so many errors.

UZR and other defensive metrics do NOT take into account the first baseman's ability to handle throws, because the data for that is not readily available. That being said, some first basemen will be underrated by these systems, and others will be overrated.

Here's a nice article (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/first-basemen-scoops) written by Mitchel Lichtman (the creator of UZR) about a potential way to rate first basemen on "scoops."

ritz
07-04-2009, 11:07 PM
This isn't Tex related, but it's UZR related.

There was an article on Beltran on Frangraphs about a month ago talking about his - UZR and how CitiField was to blame. They also mentioned something about how they didn't know enough about Citi to compensate for it and were still using stats from Shea, so how long does that usually take to figure out?

Sorry, I'm really not trying to steer away from the Tex talk, but since you guys were talking about UZR and how it can be flawed I wanted to ask. I know Beltran is getting older, but he's still a great defensive CFer. It's just odd seeing his UZR so high over the years and now so low. I do know that he likes to play deep, so he has let some shallow balls drop in front of him, but honestly as a fan I'd rather him let singles drop in front of him rather than potential doubles or triples go past him in the gaps or over his head.

He also did the same thing in Shea, but his UZR was still a lot higher.

misterd
07-04-2009, 11:18 PM
I just have a hard time believing that Tex is a below average defensive first baseman. I understand his range isn't that great, but I just feel he's saved Jeter and company so many errors.

We're also used to seeing Giambi play first. Stephen Hawkings could field it better.

bravesfan22193
07-04-2009, 11:23 PM
Texeira from what I saw with him on the Braves has extremely poor range but makes up for it in his play around the bag on throws. He's one player underrated by UZR but to the people that always say he is one of the best defensive 1b in the game, i question that due to his total lack of mobility around the bag

C1Bman88
07-05-2009, 12:26 AM
This isn't Tex related, but it's UZR related.

There was an article on Beltran on Frangraphs about a month ago talking about his - UZR and how CitiField was to blame. They also mentioned something about how they didn't know enough about Citi to compensate for it and were still using stats from Shea, so how long does that usually take to figure out?

At least three years of data for it to be truly accurate. Five years is better.

Rylinkus
07-05-2009, 10:17 AM
We're also used to seeing Giambi play first. Stephen Hawkings could field it better.

Giambi takes way too much flak. At the very least he was adept at scooping low throw balls, or which he saw many.

cwilson21
07-06-2009, 01:44 AM
UZR and other defensive metrics do NOT take into account the first baseman's ability to handle throws, because the data for that is not readily available. That being said, some first basemen will be underrated by these systems, and others will be overrated.

Here's a nice article (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/first-basemen-scoops) written by Mitchel Lichtman (the creator of UZR) about a potential way to rate first basemen on "scoops."

Justin Morneau = Underrated Defensively

C1Bman88
07-06-2009, 02:10 AM
Justin Morneau = Underrated Defensively

Sean Smith did a study on "scoops" made by first basemen- the usual suspects were at the top of the list (Todd Helton, Travis Lee, Keith Hernandez, John Olerud, J.T. Snow, etc.) and the ones you would expect to be at the bottom of the list (Mo Vaughn, Frank Thomas, Carlos Delgado, etc.). Morneau was a -4 runs per 1000 throws. The only player near the bottom of this list that I'd disagree with is Don Mattingly.

This study was done up until 2007, so I guess this begs the question as to whether or not Morneau has improved substantially over the course of 1.5 seasons or if there's some sort of error in the data processing. Or, if there's bias on your behalf.

cwilson21
07-06-2009, 01:11 PM
Sean Smith did a study on "scoops" made by first basemen- the usual suspects were at the top of the list (Todd Helton, Travis Lee, Keith Hernandez, John Olerud, J.T. Snow, etc.) and the ones you would expect to be at the bottom of the list (Mo Vaughn, Frank Thomas, Carlos Delgado, etc.). Morneau was a -4 runs per 1000 throws. The only player near the bottom of this list that I'd disagree with is Don Mattingly.

This study was done up until 2007, so I guess this begs the question as to whether or not Morneau has improved substantially over the course of 1.5 seasons or if there's some sort of error in the data processing. Or, if there's bias on your behalf.

Probably is some bias but ask any fan who watches the Twins on a consistent basis and Morneau has gotten better and better at "scoops". He has been tremendous at saving errors for the rest of the infield. Plus like other SABR stats, this one has flaws and I think it's much harder to gauge how well a player is at "scoops" than any other defensive stat.

Seamhead
07-06-2009, 01:29 PM
How can you say that when you haven't even read Sean Smith's study on scoops (unless I misread your post, and you were referring to UZR at the beginning of your sentence)?

ritz
07-06-2009, 02:01 PM
At least three years of data for it to be truly accurate. Five years is better.

Cool, thank you. It's just a shame that some people might only take into account a stat like that and this that Beltran had a horrible year defensively.

C1Bman88
07-06-2009, 02:25 PM
Probably is some bias but ask any fan who watches the Twins on a consistent basis and Morneau has gotten better and better at "scoops". He has been tremendous at saving errors for the rest of the infield. Plus like other SABR stats, this one has flaws and I think it's much harder to gauge how well a player is at "scoops" than any other defensive stat.

Then you're definitely looking at major bias. Remember, this is comparing Morneau to other first basemen at handling throws. That's how a WOWY method works. So while he might be "good," there's better.

JDIsMyGod23
07-06-2009, 02:51 PM
Sean Smith did a study on "scoops" made by first basemen- the usual suspects were at the top of the list (Todd Helton, Travis Lee, Keith Hernandez, John Olerud, J.T. Snow, etc.) and the ones you would expect to be at the bottom of the list (Mo Vaughn, Frank Thomas, Carlos Delgado, etc.). Morneau was a -4 runs per 1000 throws. The only player near the bottom of this list that I'd disagree with is Don Mattingly.

This study was done up until 2007, so I guess this begs the question as to whether or not Morneau has improved substantially over the course of 1.5 seasons or if there's some sort of error in the data processing. Or, if there's bias on your behalf.

Where is Paul Konerko on this list?

cwilson21
07-06-2009, 03:05 PM
Then you're definitely looking at major bias. Remember, this is comparing Morneau to other first basemen at handling throws. That's how a WOWY method works. So while he might be "good," there's better.

Yeah but you said the study was done up until 2007 so I'm figuring his numbers wouldn't be as bad as they were then compared to other first basemen (hence the improvement). Over the past couple years he has seemed to improve at "scoops" but what I took from what you said is that the "scoop" data has not been updated since 2007 so I'm guessing that his numbers would be better now than they were 2 years ago.

C1Bman88
07-06-2009, 03:07 PM
Where is Paul Konerko on this list?

Exactly a 0.

JDIsMyGod23
07-06-2009, 03:09 PM
Exactly a 0.

Is 0 like 100 for OPS+?

Gigantes4Life
07-06-2009, 03:41 PM
It just means he's average, he saves no more or less than the average 1B.

Seamhead
07-06-2009, 04:04 PM
Yeah but you said the study was done up until 2007 so I'm figuring his numbers wouldn't be as bad as they were then compared to other first basemen (hence the improvement). Over the past couple years he has seemed to improve at "scoops" but what I took from what you said is that the "scoop" data has not been updated since 2007 so I'm guessing that his numbers would be better now than they were 2 years ago.

Right....

C1Bman88
07-06-2009, 05:31 PM
Yeah but you said the study was done up until 2007 so I'm figuring his numbers wouldn't be as bad as they were then compared to other first basemen (hence the improvement). Over the past couple years he has seemed to improve at "scoops" but what I took from what you said is that the "scoop" data has not been updated since 2007 so I'm guessing that his numbers would be better now than they were 2 years ago.

Morneau was, on average, -2.2 runs saved over that span of time. You mean to tell me that over the course of one and a half seasons he's become a plus defender?

iam brett favre
07-06-2009, 05:57 PM
Because, like most sabermetrics, its flawed.

C1Bman88
07-06-2009, 06:05 PM
Because, like most sabermetrics, its flawed.

Thanks for your input. I think if you understood the methodology you'd see things differently.

Seamhead
07-06-2009, 06:07 PM
Because, like most sabermetrics, its flawed.

:laugh:

cwilson21
07-06-2009, 06:55 PM
Morneau was, on average, -2.2 runs saved over that span of time. You mean to tell me that over the course of one and a half seasons he's become a plus defender?

For "scoops" or just total defense?

-Lavigne43-
07-06-2009, 07:13 PM
Because, like most sabermetrics, its flawed.

Yet you can't explain why it is flawed

Gigantes4Life
07-06-2009, 07:56 PM
Because, like most sabermetrics, its flawed.

Not as flawed as your logic.

C1Bman88
07-06-2009, 10:33 PM
For "scoops" or just total defense?

"Scoops" only.

iam brett favre
07-07-2009, 12:46 AM
The reason I think its flawed is because, Im just simply biased.
And, I dont get it.

cwilson21
07-07-2009, 02:33 AM
"Scoops" only.

IMO he has been one of the best 1B at scooping the ball and saving errors the last couple of years but if you come upon a more recent "scoop" test that shows how he has fared against other 1B since the last one was done, that'd be great. Just my opinion that he can't be worse than the numbers you posted earlier.

MelkyNYY
07-07-2009, 02:51 AM
UZR should not ever be used at 1b.

weebs
07-07-2009, 01:29 PM
The reason I think its flawed is because, Im just simply biased.
And, I dont get it.

hey guyz i like mark texiera so im biased n uzr sux

MelkyNYY
07-07-2009, 01:31 PM
When does range really become a factor at 1B? The plays some first baseman save with their reaction and their ability to scoop or save throws is > the range they cover.

Gigantes4Life
07-08-2009, 03:19 AM
It depends, are there more scoops than groundballs out of range? It's different with different teams obviously, when you compare having a poor arm in Jeter or an absolute cannon in Tulowitzki.

misterd
07-09-2009, 10:32 AM
I've yet to come across some statistical model that isn't flawed in some way or another. The question really is whether it is less flawed (or closer to perfect) than other models - ie is it generally more reliable.