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nithanyo
06-30-2009, 11:08 AM
Our rotation has a huge void after AJ left.

We have a gaping hole in the #2 spot in our rotation. Is there any possible free agents that we have a shot at that we could add for some veteran leadership and earn some genuine respect around the league from. Aj Seemed like the perfect fit being a flamethrowing righty to compliment Halladays pitching style but it wasnt meant to be. Eric Bedard seems like a good fit IMO but is he a FA?

1)Halladay(a true ace)
2)????????????
3)Romero(can be a #2 someday but is a # 3)
4)Marcum(a solid #3 and a good guy for the 4th spot)
5)Richmond/Tallet(an ok #5)


If mcgowan were healthy we could have been ok but i wouldnt put too much stock into him. If this team is to seriously compete for 2010 we need a true #2 pitcher

MaHaRaJaH
06-30-2009, 11:21 AM
Our bandaid staff can survive, we need either rios and wells to pick it up or get a new bad that WILL.

ChongInc.
06-30-2009, 12:52 PM
pedro
1 year 5 mil
but i would rather get bedard 3 years 12 mil maby 13.5
dont think he will accept a discount to play in canada though...

Rogi10
06-30-2009, 01:01 PM
pedro
1 year 5 mil
but i would rather get bedard 3 years 12 mil maby 13.5
dont think he will accept a discount to play in canada though...

whens the last time pedro pitched well? oh right 2006.

You still want him to get 5mill and be your #2? (in the al east btw)

nithanyo
06-30-2009, 02:26 PM
Bedard might work. But it would have to be a backloaded contract.

Rolen-12mill, BJ-10mill, Overbay-7mil, Halladay-15mil(hopefully not), are all coming off the books in 2010. Lets say we give Halladay 25 million, and the Burnett/Thomas savings go towards Rios, Wells and arbitration players we have about 20 million dollars to play with. So a backloaded contract wouldnt be too bad if it was for a top teir starter

JaysFan87
06-30-2009, 03:23 PM
OR how about people let the young pitchers pitch in the majors so that they can be evaluated and progress through the system?

Eagles4Lyfe
06-30-2009, 03:50 PM
Halladay bedard Marcum Romero Richmond in that order would be a nice pitching staff but if mcgowan comes back put him in richmonds spot and make richmond a long reliever that we can really use...Thats a nice pitching staff and our batting just needs to get sewed up

laker18
06-30-2009, 04:09 PM
If we can land bedard in the offseason for a contract around 5yr/65 million i would consider him an official replacement for burnette. But we first need to lock up halladay to a extension that wil keep him here until hes 40 with a 7 yr/161 million extension(23 per year). Maybe he will take a discount to stay in toronto but if he doesnt that type of contract would be hard to pass up from any team. If halladay gets an extension then i think bringing in bedard would be the best move riccardi could make

Jamiecballer
06-30-2009, 04:29 PM
I think you are undervaluing Marcum a lot. He has one of the best changeups in the game, and a tremendous "feel" for pitching. If he comes back healthy I see him playing in an all-star game or two in the next 3 or 4 years.

ChongInc.
06-30-2009, 05:14 PM
I think you are undervaluing Marcum a lot. He has one of the best changeups in the game, and a tremendous "feel" for pitching. If he comes back healthy I see him playing in an all-star game or two in the next 3 or 4 years.

agreed

JaysFan87
06-30-2009, 05:15 PM
If we can land bedard in the offseason for a contract around 5yr/65 million i would consider him an official replacement for burnette. But we first need to lock up halladay to a extension that wil keep him here until hes 40 with a 7 yr/161 million extension(23 per year). Maybe he will take a discount to stay in toronto but if he doesnt that type of contract would be hard to pass up from any team. If halladay gets an extension then i think bringing in bedard would be the best move riccardi could make

NO just no. Why in Gods name would u offer that much money to a guy that has never been healthy in his career. Has had only one year where he made all his starts. That hasn't been healthy in 4 years. And is injured again this year? I think he iwll be lucky if he gets a 1 year deal with an option for a second, let alone a 5 year deal.

nithanyo
07-02-2009, 10:13 AM
NO just no. Why in Gods name would u offer that much money to a guy that has never been healthy in his career. Has had only one year where he made all his starts. That hasn't been healthy in 4 years. And is injured again this year? I think he iwll be lucky if he gets a 1 year deal with an option for a second, let alone a 5 year deal.

Cus he would be a solid starter behind Halladay. 5/65mil for Bedard would be a good deal for Bedard IMO and JP should try for him. We would have 4 pitchers who came from the Organization in Doc, Marcum(if he comes back to form), Romero, and Richmond while one pitcher (hopefully bedard) from outside. Unless your name is the Tampa bay rays and you have 10 straight last place seasons worth of top picks you cant have a rotation with pure internal talent and expect to compete in the AL east. Even the rays have talent in there rotation from elsewhere in Kazmir(Mets) and Garza(Twins)

JaysFan87
07-02-2009, 10:55 AM
WHy in gods name would u give that much money and that much term for a guy who has never pitched 200 innings, whose innings have gone down from 196 to 182 to 82 in the last three seasons and is again on the DL this year. IF you were against the AJ signing because of his health concerns then how could u be on board with a bedard signing, considering his injury history has been worse??

And how does having your own talent from within mean that you can't compete? Is there a rule saying that at least one of your pitchers have to be a FA? TO get a pitcher from FA just for the sake of getting one because in some world, you can not win with your own pitchers is just stupid, IMO.

nithanyo
07-02-2009, 11:43 AM
WHy in gods name would u give that much money and that much term for a guy who has never pitched 200 innings, whose innings have gone down from 196 to 182 to 82 in the last three seasons and is again on the DL this year. IF you were against the AJ signing because of his health concerns then how could u be on board with a bedard signing, considering his injury history has been worse??

And how does having your own talent from within mean that you can't compete? Is there a rule saying that at least one of your pitchers have to be a FA? TO get a pitcher from FA just for the sake of getting one because in some world, you can not win with your own pitchers is just stupid, IMO.

Not once was i against the signing of AJ. As a matter of fact i think he would have helped this team out if he still was here. If you havent noticed Cecil, Mills, and Purcey have been absolutely awful. They may be top prospects and might have raw talent but theres no saying they will turnout the way we want them. If 2010 is what we were building for theres nothing wrong in spending money to get a solid starter and put this team over the hump.

As of right now noone beyond halladay has much major league experience. Romero is a solid starter but he is likely going to have bumps down the road and you cant expect shutouts from him when hitters begin to figure him out. Richmond is a good number 5 but nothing better. Tallet is up and down but nothing more than a replacement and i dont see him as a long term starter. Marcum was a solid pitcher and theres no saying he will come and pitch lieke before injury. Litsch is out for most of 2010, and Mcgowan is pretty much a writeoff.

Right now our rotation looks like

Halladay
Romero
Richmond
Tallet
Mills

That is not a world series rotation
Best case scenario

Halladay
Romero
Marcum
Richmond
Tallet

That my friend is not a world series rotation either

Halladay
Bedard
Marcum
Romero
Richmond/Tallet/Purcey/.......

^^this looks like a rotation that can hoist a championship. Dont you agree?

blujaysrock
07-02-2009, 12:33 PM
Not once was i against the signing of AJ. As a matter of fact i think he would have helped this team out if he still was here. If you havent noticed Cecil, Mills, and Purcey have been absolutely awful. They may be top prospects and might have raw talent but theres no saying they will turnout the way we want them. If 2010 is what we were building for theres nothing wrong in spending money to get a solid starter and put this team over the hump.

As of right now noone beyond halladay has much major league experience. Romero is a solid starter but he is likely going to have bumps down the road and you cant expect shutouts from him when hitters begin to figure him out. Richmond is a good number 5 but nothing better. Tallet is up and down but nothing more than a replacement and i dont see him as a long term starter. Marcum was a solid pitcher and theres no saying he will come and pitch lieke before injury. Litsch is out for most of 2010, and Mcgowan is pretty much a writeoff.

Right now our rotation looks like

Halladay
Romero
Richmond
Tallet
Mills

That is not a world series rotation
Best case scenario

Halladay
Romero
Marcum
Richmond
Tallet

That my friend is not a world series rotation either

Halladay
Bedard
Marcum
Romero
Richmond/Tallet/Purcey/.......

^^this looks like a rotation that can hoist a championship. Dont you agree?

it's good but it will require Bedard to actually be able to see the playoffs, I still think we need to add a legit #4 hitter before pitching our young guys will only improve hopefully.

ramz.n
07-02-2009, 02:03 PM
Our rotation has a huge void after AJ left.

We have a gaping hole in the #2 spot in our rotation. Is there any possible free agents that we have a shot at that we could add for some veteran leadership and earn some genuine respect around the league from. Aj Seemed like the perfect fit being a flamethrowing righty to compliment Halladays pitching style but it wasnt meant to be. Eric Bedard seems like a good fit IMO but is he a FA?

1)Halladay(a true ace)
2)????????????
3)Romero(can be a #2 someday but is a # 3)
4)Marcum(a solid #3 and a good guy for the 4th spot)
5)Richmond/Tallet(an ok #5)

If mcgowan were healthy we could have been ok but i wouldnt put too much stock into him. If this team is to seriously compete for 2010 we need a true #2 pitcher

cecil in the future imo has the stuff to be a #3

JaysFan87
07-02-2009, 11:22 PM
Not once was i against the signing of AJ. As a matter of fact i think he would have helped this team out if he still was here. If you havent noticed Cecil, Mills, and Purcey have been absolutely awful. They may be top prospects and might have raw talent but theres no saying they will turnout the way we want them.If 2010 is what we were building for theres nothing wrong in spending money to get a solid starter and put this team over the hump.

If u havent noticed 2 fo those pitchers were drafted not 2 years ago and have shot up the system. So yea struggling will happen. ALmost every pitcher struggles and other like romero haven't so far. But combined cecil and mills have made 8 starts in the MLB, to criticize them because they have struggled is just stupid. Its expected and the only way to get over that is for them to pitch and pitch often.




As of right now noone beyond halladay has much major league experience. Romero is a solid starter but he is likely going to have bumps down the road and you cant expect shutouts from him when hitters begin to figure him out. Richmond is a good number 5 but nothing better. Tallet is up and down but nothing more than a replacement and i dont see him as a long term starter. Marcum was a solid pitcher and theres no saying he will come and pitch lieke before injury. Litsch is out for most of 2010, and Mcgowan is pretty much a writeoff.

So romero is solid now but will struggle for sure later, but cecil and mills are awful now and wont be good later?





Right now our rotation looks like

Halladay
Romero
Richmond
Tallet
Mills

That is not a world series rotation
Best case scenario

Halladay
Romero
Marcum
Richmond
Tallet

That my friend is not a world series rotation either

Halladay
Bedard
Marcum
Romero
Richmond/Tallet/Purcey/.......

^^this looks like a rotation that can hoist a championship. Dont you agree?


Has bedard ever pitched in the playoffs?? NO
Is there any reason to believe that bedard will be healthy enough to pitch in the playoffs?? NO
Is there any reason for any team to give him more than one year this off-season? Absolutely not. He has yet to show any consistency and is again on the DL this season. Any GM who gives him the money and term you originally said should never be employed by any team in MLB.

And to answer your question, No i would not take the possible (but more likely worse overall production) marginal benefit of bedard over the younger/higher potential/cheaper internal options.

Zaunnie
07-02-2009, 11:28 PM
We could sign Duchscherer, Harden, or Hudson

nithanyo
07-03-2009, 12:17 AM
If u havent noticed 2 fo those pitchers were drafted not 2 years ago and have shot up the system. So yea struggling will happen. ALmost every pitcher struggles and other like romero haven't so far. But combined cecil and mills have made 8 starts in the MLB, to criticize them because they have struggled is just stupid. Its expected and the only way to get over that is for them to pitch and pitch often.





So romero is solid now but will struggle for sure later, but cecil and mills are awful now and wont be good later?







Has bedard ever pitched in the playoffs?? NO
Is there any reason to believe that bedard will be healthy enough to pitch in the playoffs?? NO
Is there any reason for any team to give him more than one year this off-season? Absolutely not. He has yet to show any consistency and is again on the DL this season. Any GM who gives him the money and term you originally said should never be employed by any team in MLB.

And to answer your question, No i would not take the possible (but more likely worse overall production) marginal benefit of bedard over the younger/higher potential/cheaper internal options.

firstly Cecil and Mills have the stuff to be dominant pitchers but you cant rely on them when they are in the prospect stage. They could find there stride next week, or be 4 years down the road like Romero or they could never find it. So to build a team around prospects is bull ****. You build it around talent you have right now.

And i didnt say Romero is definetly going to struggle. I said that it is to be expected, but hey i dont know the future. Maybe he never looks back and becomes the best pitcher for the next 20 years. And i thought this team was built to win next year and chances are mills and Cecil are not going to be ready for next year.

Let me ask you something. has any of the other 5 pitchers pitched in the playoffs? Thats right not even Halladay has playoff experience. So just cus Halladay didnt play october ball does that mean he is going to be an awful pitcher?

And bedard has 6 years major league experience.Bedard is a Toronto born pitcher with respect around the league. Noone other than halladay has the type of respect like Bedard. He is a pitcher with a career ERA of 3.70. Since 2004 he has started less than 24 starts only once in 2008 with 15 and to top it all off he hasnt had an era over 4.00 since 2004. So to call him an inconsistent pitcher is bull ****. think before you make a stupid comment

JaysFan87
07-03-2009, 08:55 AM
firstly Cecil and Mills have the stuff to be dominant pitchers but you cant rely on them when they are in the prospect stage. They could find there stride next week, or be 4 years down the road like Romero or they could never find it. So to build a team around prospects is bull ****. You build it around talent you have right now.

They will never become non-prospects if you dont let them pitch. the more they pitch the more they get a feel for the MLB. If you never let your young pitchers pitch then you are never going to find out what they have.


And i didnt say Romero is definetly going to struggle. I said that it is to be expected, but hey i dont know the future. Maybe he never looks back and becomes the best pitcher for the next 20 years. And i thought this team was built to win next year and chances are mills and Cecil are not going to be ready for next year.

If they don't pitch in the majors this year, consistency then probably not but they will never find out till they pitch up here.


Let me ask you something. has any of the other 5 pitchers pitched in the playoffs? Thats right not even Halladay has playoff experience. So just cus Halladay didnt play october ball does that mean he is going to be an awful pitcher?

Didn't say he would be a great pitcher nor an awful pitcher, but with halladay you know what you have and the money is already committed. Bedard on the other hand would require a heck of a big commitment to find out that maybe his arm can't take it.



And bedard has 6 years major league experience.Bedard is a Toronto born pitcher with respect around the league. Noone other than halladay has the type of respect like Bedard. He is a pitcher with a career ERA of 3.70. Since 2004 he has started less than 24 starts only once in 2008 with 15 and to top it all off he hasnt had an era over 4.00 since 2004. So to call him an inconsistent pitcher is bull ****. think before you make a stupid comment

Great tha he has 6 years in the MLB, but even in his healthy season he didnt even reach 200 innings. What respect does he have??? All the reports and articles i have read are that he is the furthest from a team player and is kinda a *******. I don't know if thats true but me and you have the same sources of information and we are probably never going to find out.

Never said he wasn't a good pitch, i said he si too inconsistent when it comes to health to commit so much money and term. Really dude, you would give him 5/65 for a guy who through 6 seasons of ball has never stayed healthy one of them save for one season where he pitched 196 innings??? He wont get even a sniff at that kind of money this off-season. He would be lucky to get one year plus an option for a second. No team in their right mind would commit that much money to bedard. Did i mention he was on the DL again this year???

blujaysrock
07-03-2009, 08:57 AM
We could sign Duchscherer, Harden, or Hudson

I really like Harden but he's a little injury prone as well, isn't he?

laker18
07-03-2009, 10:35 AM
people are talking about free agent pitchers but are leaving out one of the best available in Jon lackey.If he hits the open market and the jays could convince him to come to Toronto, he would be a great compliment to halladay. I also am a fan of bringing bedard to Toronto but he is injury prone. So i guess riccardi is gonna ahve to earn his money this offseason to get us from a team knocking at the playoff door and a team who can get to the post season and win games

jayfantilldeath
07-03-2009, 10:42 AM
Romero is going to be an ace

H-MYK
07-03-2009, 07:54 PM
^^ If he keeps doing what he's doing, then he will.

wamco
07-04-2009, 10:17 AM
lackey might come cheaper after the year he is having or buy low on Chris Young

McJoe
07-04-2009, 12:53 PM
1. Roy Halladay
2. Brett Cecil
2. Shaun Marcum
2. Ricky Romero
5. Richmond/Purcey/Tallet/....

you have all forgotten our top prospect. Brett Cecil will be the 2 starter. He will get 150-170 innings this season between AAA and the bigs and we will have a shot at giving him 190-210 innings next season if he is successful. The kid is gonna be good.

Habs n Jays Fan
07-04-2009, 01:48 PM
1. Roy Halladay
2. Brett Cecil
2. Shaun Marcum
2. Ricky Romero
5. Richmond/Purcey/Tallet/....

you have all forgotten our top prospect. Brett Cecil will be the 2 starter. He will get 150-170 innings this season between AAA and the bigs and we will have a shot at giving him 190-210 innings next season if he is successful. The kid is gonna be good.

Agreed 100% but just wondering, wouldn't it be smarter to have Romero as the #2 and Mills the #4 since Romero will have a full year at the MLB level? Regardless, it's gonna be awesome to actually have 2 talented lefties in the rotation for once.

nithanyo
07-04-2009, 02:42 PM
You guys are jumping too fast on the Cecil/Mills wagon. Sure they could have the stuff to be great pitchers in the future but they arent there yet and noone knows how long it will take them. For all we know they could be flops and to put all our eggs in one basket by solely relying on them and marcum/mcgowans return is jumping the gun. you guys seem to be putting the cart ahead of the horse and in baseball thats not very smart as we have seen in many sour prospects

JAYZFAN9
07-04-2009, 03:09 PM
Lackey is a stud I would love seeing him in TO

McJoe
07-04-2009, 03:37 PM
Agreed 100% but just wondering, wouldn't it be smarter to have Romero as the #2 and Mills the #4 since Romero will have a full year at the MLB level? Regardless, it's gonna be awesome to actually have 2 talented lefties in the rotation for once.

I dont have Mills in the future plans at all. I dont like his stuff but thats just me.


You guys are jumping too fast on the Cecil/Mills wagon. Sure they could have the stuff to be great pitchers in the future but they arent there yet and noone knows how long it will take them. For all we know they could be flops and to put all our eggs in one basket by solely relying on them and marcum/mcgowans return is jumping the gun. you guys seem to be putting the cart ahead of the horse and in baseball thats not very smart as we have seen in many sour prospects

And you are putting all your eggs in the basket of a starter who has never pitched in a playoff game, has never thrown 200 innings, and has one good season to his credit...

whats your point...

Habs n Jays Fan
07-04-2009, 08:54 PM
I dont have Mills in the future plans at all. I dont like his stuff but thats just me.

Whoops, meant Romero at the 2 and Cecil at the 4. I too am not too hopeful with Mills, not a huge fan of players who solely rely on off-speed/junk pitches.

donatolla
07-04-2009, 08:59 PM
Best case scenario

Halladay
Romero
Marcum
Richmond
Tallet

That my friend is not a world series rotation either

Halladay
Bedard
Marcum
Romero
Richmond/Tallet/Purcey/.......

^^this looks like a rotation that can hoist a championship. Dont you agree?

Quite frankly, I don't see Bedard improving that rotation at all. A rotation of Halladay, Romero, Tallet, Marcum and (anyone else) would be one of the best in the AL.

That said, there is one real point that is really missed here:

If you could extend Halladay OR sign Bedard, which would you do?

Both won't happen.

donatolla
07-04-2009, 09:09 PM
1. Roy Halladay
2. Brett Cecil
2. Shaun Marcum
2. Ricky Romero
5. Richmond/Purcey/Tallet/....

you have all forgotten our top prospect. Brett Cecil will be the 2 starter. He will get 150-170 innings this season between AAA and the bigs and we will have a shot at giving him 190-210 innings next season if he is successful. The kid is gonna be good.

Brett Cecil will be a #2 starter for sure...but he better not get that many innings this year. That would be way too much of a jump for him over his previous high. Realistically, I think he's probably a couple years away from being ready.