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countrycasanova
06-30-2009, 09:40 AM
Alot of you all would like for Horford to play his natural position PF. So I pose the question would YOU like Josh at SF? If I remember correctly he came into the league as a SF (for the most part). Being that he rarely post up, I can see him playing the position. The game is moving away from your traditional C's, PF's and SF's. Being that the hawks don't run as nearly as much as they should, a big center could help them in the half court. Josh playing SF would open him up even more for weak side blocks. My prototypical SF is a freakish athlete, slashes, can guard 3 to 4 positions on the court, and if he can hit 3's at a 35% clip that would be extra. Having a true center to go along w/Smith/Horford gives you so many options when your in the playoffs playing in those fourth quarters. To me you can package Marvin for a legit center/draft pick/filler or jus package Chills for a legit center. So, basically the question;DO YALL THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD FIT FOR THE TEAM TO PUT SMITH AT THE THE 3? :)

kiznarl
06-30-2009, 09:53 AM
as long as smith doesnt get traded im happy for him to stay at the 4 but saying that would prefer him at the 3. if we could trade chil and keep marv and get a legit c i would be stoked as unfort theres no real options in fa. havnt been online for a while but can see a clipper fan suggested kaman a while ago which was shot down by every1. i think he would be a good fit as at least 1 big man will be avail with their overload of bigs. would love przybilla but with oden yet to flourish dont think he will be going anywhere soon.

CMO
06-30-2009, 12:05 PM
I like Smith at the three. I've been on the fence about him. But realizing that he is only 23 and is somewhat still raw. If he stays in the gym this summer and develops a jumpshot and works on his coordination ,he would be a great fit at the 3.

falconsfan1678
06-30-2009, 01:10 PM
I just don't think he is willing to establish himself at the 4. His jumper needs to be improved desperately but he has the speed and quickness to cover the 3's in the league. I think he can move to the 4 or 5 in some smaller match up line ups but his natural position is a 3.

SB75
06-30-2009, 02:58 PM
I would love to see him at the 3.

hawks4
06-30-2009, 03:09 PM
I personally think the Hawks should invite David Andersen to training camp and see how he pans out at center. He sounds like what we are looking for. A versatile big man (he's right at 7 feet) who can defend and rebound, but he is also pretty quick for a big man and can shoot from the outside. Just invite him to camp and see what happens. We have nothing to lose by doing that. It's worth a shot!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyPw2G2WPsM

Hawkalicious
06-30-2009, 03:15 PM
I said 4, but its a tricky question. Would I LIKE him to play small forward? Absolutely. Can he play small forward on a consistent basis as of right now? No. I sure hope he develops his game into a SF, but right now, he can't play that position on a consistent basis. He can't handle or shoot the ball NEARLY as well as we need our SF to do in this offense.

So long term, yes.
Short term, no.

SB75
06-30-2009, 04:29 PM
I just don't get where some of you guys get this. I can respect your opinion if you say you don't want him playing the small forward because of his shooting. Or any other reason you don't want him to. But to say he can't is crazy. He has already played the small forward for an entire season. I get most of you would like your small forward to shoot better, but the NBA is full of athletic small forwards with less than average jumpers ( G.Wallace, B.Bowen, R. Artest ECT). If you don't want him to that's cool. But please don't say he can't that would be false.

Hawkalicious
06-30-2009, 06:20 PM
I just don't get where some of you guys get this. I can respect your opinion if you say you don't want him playing the small forward because of his shooting.

Aren't you the one that gets mad at Woody for getting Josh the ball on the wing instead of in the paint?

Or any other reason you don't want him to. But to say he can't is crazy. He has already played the small forward for an entire season. I get most of you would like your small forward to shoot better, but the NBA is full of athletic small forwards with less than average jumpers ( G.Wallace, B.Bowen, R. Artest ECT).

I pray that Josh Smith's jumper can one day be as good as one of those guys you mentioned. Everyone here knows good and well that his jumpshot doesn't even compare to those guys.

If you don't want him to that's cool. But please don't say he can't that would be false.

Of course he can, but that doesn't mean he can do it effectively in this offense.



.

SB75
06-30-2009, 07:00 PM
.

1. I get mad at woody because he never uses the post. Nice try. I have gone on record and said many times I don't mind Josh getting the ball on the wing. I would just rather see him shoot 15 to 18 footers instead of 3's. I can even live with the 3's as log as their in the offense, I just don't like when he forces them. I have faith that he will improve that shot.

2. The guys I named all have horrible jump shots, To say Smith's is worse is just untrue. Bowen can occasionally make a stand still 3, but that's about it. To say everyone know's is once again a one sided view, It's your view that's fine. But I, as you can find just as many guys that say these guys shoot just as bad. I'm really not going to argue which one of these guys jumpers is worse, that is pointless. The point is all have below average jumpers and they play the small forward spot very well.

3. He played the small forward well the year he played it. And yes he was effective. He isn't your prototypical small forward, But saying he wasn't effective simply isn't true no mater how you slice it.

FaceDown91
06-30-2009, 07:29 PM
if he gets his jumper going, he would be a great 3

Hawkalicious
07-01-2009, 12:26 AM
1. I get mad at woody because he never uses the post. Nice try. I have gone on record and said many times I don't mind Josh getting the ball on the wing. I would just rather see him shoot 15 to 18 footers instead of 3's. I can even live with the 3's as log as their in the offense, I just don't like when he forces them. I have faith that he will improve that shot.

2. The guys I named all have horrible jump shots, To say Smith's is worse is just untrue. Bowen can occasionally make a stand still 3, but that's about it. To say everyone know's is once again a one sided view, It's your view that's fine. But I, as you can find just as many guys that say these guys shoot just as bad. I'm really not going to argue which one of these guys jumpers is worse, that is pointless. The point is all have below average jumpers and they play the small forward spot very well.

3. He played the small forward well the year he played it. And yes he was effective. He isn't your prototypical small forward, But saying he wasn't effective simply isn't true no mater how you slice it.

1. You and I and anyone else who was posting here during the playoffs and afterwards knows that you blamed Woodson (someone back me up on this) for putting Smith in bad spots on the floor, AKA the perimeter. In this offense, and most offenses in the NBA, a SF is a shooter/slasher. They make the D respect the long range shot, and use the pump fake to allow them to penetrate. Look at Pierce, Jefferson, Battier, the list goes on and on. I would love for Josh to be able to play this type of game as well, but right now, thats not his game. His game is a finisher at the rim, a rebounder, a nice interior passer, and scrapping inside and using his athleticism against bigger/slower defenders.

2. Artest career 3FG%: 34.2%
Bowen career 3FG%: 39.3%
Smith career 3FG%: 27.0%

And again, this is an important stat because good SFs have to be able to make this shot in the NBA. Bowen doesn't do much well on offense, but he taught himself the jumpshot well enough to at least be a threat.

Also, last years numbers were:

Smith- 29.9%
Artest- 39.9%
Bowen- 42.9%

So are you now going to tell me that thats "just untrue" yet again? I beg you to look at this objectively. And before you say "I said I want him to shoot 15-18 footers, not 3's", well isn't that the role of the PF? PFs get that shot WAY more in the NBA than a SF does. Hedo and Pierce are the only ones that I can think of that can get that shot consistently, and those are All-NBA type players.

3. When you say he played SF for a whole season, you must be talking about 05-06? That was Marvins rookie year where he only started 7 games, so I will assume that is the year you are referring to. Anyways, Josh shot a career low percentage from the field that year, 30% from 3, averaged 11.3 points and 6.6 boards that year, both numbers well under his career avgs. I guess the saving grace is that he shot a career best 71.9% from the line, but thats about it. So, again, I'm saying he wasn't effective (relative, of course, to starting SFs around the NBA)

SB75
07-01-2009, 09:41 AM
1. You and I and anyone else who was posting here during the playoffs and afterwards knows that you blamed Woodson (someone back me up on this) for putting Smith in bad spots on the floor, AKA the perimeter. In this offense, and most offenses in the NBA, a SF is a shooter/slasher. They make the D respect the long range shot, and use the pump fake to allow them to penetrate. Look at Pierce, Jefferson, Battier, the list goes on and on. I would love for Josh to be able to play this type of game as well, but right now, thats not his game. His game is a finisher at the rim, a rebounder, a nice interior passer, and scrapping inside and using his athleticism against bigger/slower defenders.

2. Artest career 3FG%: 34.2%
Bowen career 3FG%: 39.3%
Smith career 3FG%: 27.0%

And again, this is an important stat because good SFs have to be able to make this shot in the NBA. Bowen doesn't do much well on offense, but he taught himself the jumpshot well enough to at least be a threat.

Also, last years numbers were:

Smith- 29.9%
Artest- 39.9%
Bowen- 42.9%

So are you now going to tell me that thats "just untrue" yet again? I beg you to look at this objectively. And before you say "I said I want him to shoot 15-18 footers, not 3's", well isn't that the role of the PF? PFs get that shot WAY more in the NBA than a SF does. Hedo and Pierce are the only ones that I can think of that can get that shot consistently, and those are All-NBA type players.

3. When you say he played SF for a whole season, you must be talking about 05-06? That was Marvins rookie year where he only started 7 games, so I will assume that is the year you are referring to. Anyways, Josh shot a career low percentage from the field that year, 30% from 3, averaged 11.3 points and 6.6 boards that year, both numbers well under his career avgs. I guess the saving grace is that he shot a career best 71.9% from the line, but thats about it. So, again, I'm saying he wasn't effective (relative, of course, to starting SFs around the NBA)


1. Dude.... go back and read my post ( start at the front). Not putting the blame on Woodson for Josh being on the wing. I was defending Josh for the some times bad 3's do to the spot Woodson had him on the floor. Defending the fact that he just isn't out their jacking 3's for no reason. So what are you talking about? I'm no Woody lover, but my criticism of Woody stay's the same. You can take it how you want ( understand it in your own terms). But I never said Josh shouldn't be on the wing. It was a debate between Atl and myself in which we debated Josh's 3pt attempts.

2. Funny how you left Wallace off .298 this year and .303 for the career.
Would you consider Carmelo a god small forward? He has shot .307 for his career from 3pt. range. http://www.nba.com/playerprofile/carmelo_anthony/career_stats.html
As you can see he didn't get that 3pt shot until his fifth season, and he played small forward full time. Would you say he was not effective until 07-08?

To take it a huge step forward, In a spot where you need long distance range (SG) one of the biggest stars in the NBA doesn't have it. D.Wade shoots .285 for his career. He shot .317 this year. Is he not effective?
http//www.nba.com/playerfile/dwyane_wade/career_stats.html

SO YES YOU ARE UN-TRUE, my bag about the players but range isn't as important as you make it. While you may want range out of your small forward, it is not a must have. You are correct in Bowen's percentage, he only made 42 this season so he wasn't burning down the house.

No you cannot define a players position by the spot they play in on the floor. Traditional sf and pf roles went out the window a long time ago. We all do know that. KG, one of the greatest power forwards to ever play this game, plays nothing like the traditional power forward Tim Duncan also one of the greatest to play this game. Neither of them play like Dirk. Webber's game was mostly perimeter. Odem's game is perimeter. While not comparing Josh to any of these, just saying you can't define position by where they play on the floor. And since I did say that's what I want Josh taking 15 to 18 footers their are a lot of sf's that get that shot. Marvin didn't have 3pt range until this year, so yes his points came on those mid-rang jumpers. Carmelo gets them, Gerald Wallace gets them, Deng gets them ( .283 career 3pt%) and Richard Jefferson gets them.

3. Yes that's the year and look at the stats he and Marvin put up their first year starting. As mentioned before out side of the 2pt avg. ( advantage Marvin) they are very similar with the most edges going to Josh. So if Marvin was effective, How was Smith not? You also act as if he wasn't going to improve on those numbers the same way Marvin has.

4. All this is beside the point. You do not have to have a great 3pt shot to be an effective small forward. You don't even have to have a great jump shot. What you do need is to athletic and be able to defend. Josh has parts of his game he needs to work on, but he can be effective at either forward spot.

SB75
07-01-2009, 10:02 AM
Hawkalicious........ I went back and read those post. I can see how you got that impression. But to be clear my argument wasn't Woody putting Josh on the wing and behind the arc. It was if he had a problem with Josh on the wing or behind the arc, he should blame Woody because Josh is in the right spot on the floor. Not saying I blame him, saying he should if he has a problem with it. If you go back and read them again, I think you will see where I'm coming from.


Their was also a second debate in which I stated, Josh has to make these jumpers at some point or it was Woodson's fault for putting him in bad spots. You have to read it in it's entirety though, I also eluded to the fact I think he does make them at some point, maybe practice. I wasn't blaming Woodson, I was speaking hyperthetically that he would be a horrible coach if he put players in poisition where he knew they couldn't make the shot.


I don't know why it's not letting me post links, All my stats are from NBA.com.

Hawkalicious
07-01-2009, 01:14 PM
Well, to be clear, I truly do agree with you on most things concerning the Hawks, I really do. I guess its just this subject that we disagree on (to an extent).

Honestly, the only reason I left Wallace off that list was because I forgot who the third player you named was. As for the Carmelo argument, he is a tremendously skilled player, and can do other things on the wing (drive and shoot off the dribble) that Josh Smith is not nearly as effective at doing. His improvement in his 3 point shooting this year just furthers my point. He had, by far, his best season to date offensively. The fact that he extended his range is a direct factor into the type of season he had. If Josh Smith could do something similar, I would be ecstatic.

Like I said, I think Josh has the tools, and can develop into the Small Forward role that you and I want to see him play. My point is that I think the offense would work better, as of right now, with Marvin at the three. Of course, Josh needs to start as he is a very good player, so he fills the 4 spot. The same reasoning is then applied to why Horford should start, so he plays the 5 (again, as of right now).

IF both Marvin and Josh have been training to play small forward, I think its pretty clear that Marvin has progressed faster at that role. HOWEVER, (and this is my opinion and pure speculation, albeit educated speculation) I DON'T think they have been both training to play that spot. I think Josh has been practicing and working in practice as a PF, thus the lack of progress in the shooting and dribbling skills. Remember, Marvin was extremely raw as a rookie, just as much as Josh IMO, so I don't think Marvin's improvements should be understated. But I digress.

The main point of all of this is that I think our team runs more efficiently with Marvin-3 Josh-4 and Horford-5, than it would with (for argument's sake) Josh-3 Al-4 and Kaman-5. I think Marvin at the three and Josh at the four gives us more PRODUCTION, then forcing Josh to learn to play SF on the fly, and then having the two bigs. Plus, if we want Josh to play the three and be able to slash into the paint, having Al and another center in there would really create some congestion. We shot the 3 ball very well last year, and I would say that our game to spread the floor and dish to the shooters won us several games.

This being said, if Josh improves his shooting (including speeding up his release), I would like to see him worked into that role at different times in games during the season. I just don't think we can afford to have him make that switch so quickly. You can talk about how there are below-average shooting SF's in the league, but I think its pretty hard to deny how much Marvin opened things up for us offensively with his abililty to shoot the three last year.

SB75
07-01-2009, 03:32 PM
Well, to be clear, I truly do agree with you on most things concerning the Hawks, I really do. I guess its just this subject that we disagree on (to an extent).

Honestly, the only reason I left Wallace off that list was because I forgot who the third player you named was. As for the Carmelo argument, he is a tremendously skilled player, and can do other things on the wing (drive and shoot off the dribble) that Josh Smith is not nearly as effective at doing. His improvement in his 3 point shooting this year just furthers my point. He had, by far, his best season to date offensively. The fact that he extended his range is a direct factor into the type of season he had. If Josh Smith could do something similar, I would be ecstatic.

Like I said, I think Josh has the tools, and can develop into the Small Forward role that you and I want to see him play. My point is that I think the offense would work better, as of right now, with Marvin at the three. Of course, Josh needs to start as he is a very good player, so he fills the 4 spot. The same reasoning is then applied to why Horford should start, so he plays the 5 (again, as of right now).

IF both Marvin and Josh have been training to play small forward, I think its pretty clear that Marvin has progressed faster at that role. HOWEVER, (and this is my opinion and pure speculation, albeit educated speculation) I DON'T think they have been both training to play that spot. I think Josh has been practicing and working in practice as a PF, thus the lack of progress in the shooting and dribbling skills. Remember, Marvin was extremely raw as a rookie, just as much as Josh IMO, so I don't think Marvin's improvements should be understated. But I digress.

The main point of all of this is that I think our team runs more efficiently with Marvin-3 Josh-4 and Horford-5, than it would with (for argument's sake) Josh-3 Al-4 and Kaman-5. I think Marvin at the three and Josh at the four gives us more PRODUCTION, then forcing Josh to learn to play SF on the fly, and then having the two bigs. Plus, if we want Josh to play the three and be able to slash into the paint, having Al and another center in there would really create some congestion. We shot the 3 ball very well last year, and I would say that our game to spread the floor and dish to the shooters won us several games.

This being said, if Josh improves his shooting (including speeding up his release), I would like to see him worked into that role at different times in games during the season. I just don't think we can afford to have him make that switch so quickly. You can talk about how there are below-average shooting SF's in the league, but I think its pretty hard to deny how much Marvin opened things up for us offensively with his abililty to shoot the three last year.

We can agree to disagree. I just think Smith brings a rare athleticism to the position that only LBJ can match. So while he won't have some of the skills as a guy like Melo has, he will have an athletic, strength, and size advantage that will drive most coaches crazy matching up with. I never ment to push the idea that he's been working at small forward just as much as Marvin, Just trying to get an understanding that in their first years at the spot their numbers where similar. If Josh had stayed their I believe he would have progressed at the position. I do agree he spends most of his time in practice at the 4.

Not knocking Marvin in anyway. You are correct it does open up the floor and create space. Just trying to get you to understand it isn't a necessity to be effective. Theirs no denying it adds diversity to your game, but their are very good ones that get by with out it. While Josh does need to work on his game the handles and 15 to 18 footer are the must, while the 3pt shot is a nice option.

CMO
07-01-2009, 04:55 PM
Good debate fellas. I will bring this up for debate as well. Out of all of those SF's that you mentioned from other teams around the league J Smoove is more atheletic which is a plus for him. Here's the thing. He is probably the worst dribbler out of all of them. I would love to see Josh at the 3 because he has the potential to dominate that position. 3's have to be able to attack the basket on a consistant basis and Josh's dribbling gets him into trouble sometimes and turns the ball over. Thats why he takes those wide open shots just inside the 3 point line with no one within 10 feet from him instead of taking it to the hole. Seriously he can jump higher than anyone on the court on any given day and he settles for them. I mean at least he can drive and get fouled. I justdont believe that he believes in himself consistantly when it comes to his dribbeling in traffic. Hopefully he can work on that as well this summer along with his jumpers with Mark Price. If he develops a consistantly decent jumper and improves his dribbeling, I personally believe that at the 3, he could be an all star and dominate that position on most nights because no one could guard him with all of those skills combimed with his athletisism.

countrycasanova
07-01-2009, 08:11 PM
You know what fellas, we wouldn't be having this conversation; if da hawks had picked CP3. With that being said, what josh needs to an effective SF (of course improve his weaknesses) is a PG that makes the game easier for the other 4 guys on the court. Bibby has never fit that mold (not even in his prime), he's shoot 1st, shoot 2nd, and sometimes shoot 3rd type point. A guard that breaks down the d-fense and sets the guys up, is what is gonna help. Hopefully my boy teague will fill that void.

Hawkalicious
07-01-2009, 08:27 PM
Good debate fellas. I will bring this up for debate as well. Out of all of those SF's that you mentioned from other teams around the league J Smoove is more atheletic which is a plus for him. Here's the thing. He is probably the worst dribbler out of all of them. I would love to see Josh at the 3 because he has the potential to dominate that position. 3's have to be able to attack the basket on a consistant basis and Josh's dribbling gets him into trouble sometimes and turns the ball over. Thats why he takes those wide open shots just inside the 3 point line with no one within 10 feet from him instead of taking it to the hole. Seriously he can jump higher than anyone on the court on any given day and he settles for them. I mean at least he can drive and get fouled. I justdont believe that he believes in himself consistantly when it comes to his dribbeling in traffic. Hopefully he can work on that as well this summer along with his jumpers with Mark Price. If he develops a consistantly decent jumper and improves his dribbeling, I personally believe that at the 3, he could be an all star and dominate that position on most nights because no one could guard him with all of those skills combimed with his athletisism.

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Not only is Josh athletic, but he is strong. He is quite thick for a player of his size and athleticism. He could dominate at the SF position if he works on his ball handling and shooting, but I am cautious about putting all our chips in that basket right away. Let him ease into that role over the course of a season by allowing him to split time with Marvin at the 3. Then, when we have a better grasp of his skills, the front office can make a better decision regarding a possible roster change. I don't think I'm disagreeing with what is being said all that much, I just think that he needs to be eased into the position.

SB75
07-01-2009, 08:56 PM
You know what fellas, we wouldn't be having this conversation; if da hawks had picked CP3. With that being said, what josh needs to an effective SF (of course improve his weaknesses) is a PG that makes the game easier for the other 4 guys on the court. Bibby has never fit that mold (not even in his prime), he's shoot 1st, shoot 2nd, and sometimes shoot 3rd type point. A guard that breaks down the d-fense and sets the guys up, is what is gonna help. Hopefully my boy teague will fill that void.


CP3 would have made the game easier and so would have D.Williams, but that's crying over spilled milk. Hind sight is always 20/20 and Marvin was the #1 prospect. This is one of the few things I will defend Billy on. While CP3 and Williams are far better players than Marvin, Marvin was the better prospect and was #1 or 2 in everyone's mock draft. It'll be interesting to see the people that come out the wood work and say they knew Rubio should have been #1, if he maximizes his talent and Blake doesn't.

I hope you are right on Jeff. I still think it'll take a season or two for him to develop. If he develops as a rookie I would be shocked and happy. I do agree he is the right pick from a talent aspect.