PDA

View Full Version : #9 PG In the NBA Today: Volume 2



Mile High Champ
06-22-2009, 07:40 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember but I conducted a poll at the start of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

PG Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9)
10)

Last Years PG rankings:


1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
06-22-2009, 07:42 PM
Rondo ran away with the last one so I started the number 9 poll a bit early. Make the call guys. I think Its Calderon, best pure PG on the board..

phlp_bj
06-22-2009, 07:43 PM
i say kidd. sure hall of famer and he can still get close to a triple double each night

Kakaroach
06-22-2009, 07:51 PM
Jason Kidd and then Jose Calderon.

JordansBulls
06-22-2009, 07:52 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember but I conducted a poll at the start of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

PG Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9)
10)

Last Years PG rankings:

I refuse to vote. Mo Williams is being despised now. I just got a question on how Nash is that high up right now when the Suns didn't even make the playoffs with 2 other star players?

Oh and how is Calderon soo high or being picked over Mo? Calderon plays with a star player and still didn't make the playoffs.

Jays Claw
06-22-2009, 07:58 PM
Mo Williams played with the "King" and still did not win a championship.

What is your point?

clutchski
06-22-2009, 07:59 PM
I refuse to vote. Mo Williams is being despised now. I just got a question on how Nash is that high up right now when the Suns didn't even make the playoffs with 2 other star players?

Oh and how is Calderon soo high or being picked over Mo? Calderon plays with a star player and still didn't make the playoffs.

I ask the same question about why Rondo is higher than Calderon. Just vote for your playa and deal with the fact that there will be like 70 voters you can't control.

OA SLAY
06-22-2009, 08:08 PM
No love for Nelson :mad:

Kakaroach
06-22-2009, 08:09 PM
Mo Williams played with the "King" and still did not win a championship.

What is your point? x2 Not a good excuse to vote for Mo Williams lol.

Goon.Weezy
06-22-2009, 08:19 PM
9.Calderon/Kidd

10.Kidd/Calderon

Mo does not deserve to be in the top 10

Goon.Weezy
06-22-2009, 08:23 PM
I refuse to vote. Mo Williams is being despised now. I just got a question on how Nash is that high up right now when the Suns didn't even make the playoffs with 2 other star players?

Oh and how is Calderon soo high or being picked over Mo? Calderon plays with a star player and still didn't make the playoffs.

The Suns did not make the playoffs because of Terry Porter, he tried to make the team something that it wasn't.

Jose Calderon was injured most of the season.

The only reason we all know Mo Williams now is because he is playing with Lebron. Last year, I don't think anyone was talking about him, or would consider him a top 10

Chronz
06-22-2009, 08:25 PM
Not that I expect any of you to know the real answer but its Jameer Nelson


I refuse to vote. Mo Williams is being despised now. I just got a question on how Nash is that high up right now when the Suns didn't even make the playoffs with 2 other star players?

Oh and how is Calderon soo high or being picked over Mo? Calderon plays with a star player and still didn't make the playoffs.

Because those are teams your describing, not the actual players themselves.

Kakaroach
06-22-2009, 08:27 PM
Because those are teams your describing, not the actual players themselves. x2 This is the best PG poll. Not the PG on the best team poll.

Murphy_Dee
06-22-2009, 08:32 PM
I think the first box sums up how most people feel about Mo Williams, and I have to say I agree
http://www.slamdumb.com/c25.php

mitch91
06-22-2009, 08:35 PM
i voted jameer, i think nelson took a step forwards, and jose stayed still

ryguy2k7
06-22-2009, 08:52 PM
I said Mo Williams. I'm a wolves fan, so impossible favoritism. It was between him and Nelson for me. They both got their respective teams far in the playoffs (Sort of Nelson) and make their teams better. Mo Williams is overshadowed by LeBron and I think Mo would shine on a different team where it could open up his scoring game a bit.

Kidd would be an easy one, but he's too damn old at this point to be top 10.

haze442200
06-22-2009, 09:12 PM
J-Kidd. Mo Williams is just more of a shooting guard, in order to be a top point guard you best asset should not be your outside shot.

kswissdaf
06-22-2009, 09:13 PM
I voted Stuckey. Im not very sure if he is a true point but he is a monster

JordansBulls
06-22-2009, 09:18 PM
Mo Williams played with the "King" and still did not win a championship.

What is your point?

Nash played with Shaq and didn't make the playoffs.

ink
06-22-2009, 09:34 PM
The Suns did not make the playoffs because of Terry Porter, he tried to make the team something that it wasn't.

Jose Calderon was injured most of the season.

The only reason we all know Mo Williams now is because he is playing with Lebron. Last year, I don't think anyone was talking about him, or would consider him a top 10

Good points.


Because those are teams your describing, not the actual players themselves.

+1

Raps08-09 Champ
06-22-2009, 09:37 PM
Mo Williams sucks. He can't even score a ****ing point during the playoffs when it mattered.

I was excited at first that Lebron was going to get help but Mo Williams sucks like hell.

Get that **** out of my face.

cmellofan15
06-23-2009, 12:47 AM
Mo Williams sucks. He can't even score a ****ing point during the playoffs when it mattered.

I was excited at first that Lebron was going to get help but Mo Williams sucks like hell.

Get that **** out of my face.

Lol who on the raptors scored in the playoffs?

Anyways Jameer should be higher than Rose so no point of actually voting. But Mo and Calderon is a tough choice because the first year Jose gets starters minutes the Raptors ******* up.

danidin
06-23-2009, 07:41 AM
Calderon with 20 and Davis with 3??????
what a shame...

azkarraga
06-23-2009, 07:49 AM
9.Calderon/Kidd

10.Kidd/Calderon

Mo does not deserve to be in the top 10

my vote

azkarraga
06-23-2009, 07:52 AM
now that you mention, nash and shaq was a weird combination... i hope they break them up this season

Mile High Champ
06-23-2009, 08:30 AM
Calderon with 20 and Davis with 3??????
what a shame...

reputation can only carry you so far, Baron Davis had done little over the last season to warrant being a top 10 pg..

pebloemer
06-23-2009, 08:57 AM
I think it is Kidd, Nelson or Williams for this pick.

No clue who to pick out of that group.

I think I'll choose Nelson. He was playing fantastic before his injury and I don't think the injury will slow him next year.

younggunn113
06-23-2009, 09:04 AM
This is a joke, Nelson is the best player left and should be ahead of a few of these other players. Theres a reason he was picked for the all star game, don't let the finals leave a sour taste in your mouth, he hadn't played for months and was only about 75%.

Jason Kidd is getting votes strictly off reputation and calderon was only better in assits and free throw shooting. You have to take into account that although Jameer only averaged 5.4 assists per game, Hedo handled the ball a lot as well and averages 5 himself. Jameer was also playing 3 less minutes a game. After Calderon the next highest was only 3.4 so it shows how much of the ball handling he really does. Jameer also shot above 45% from three while Calderon only shot 40%. Jameer will be an all star again next year. The coaches are the ones who put him in that game, and they are probably more educated about the game than us, whether we want to acknowledge it or not.

Brooklyn Mets
06-23-2009, 09:12 AM
The Suns did not make the playoffs because of Terry Porter, he tried to make the team something that it wasn't.

Jose Calderon was injured most of the season.

The only reason we all know Mo Williams now is because he is playing with Lebron. Last year, I don't think anyone was talking about him, or would consider him a top 10

wasn't a top ten pg last year and didn't play good enough to be in the top ten this year..

pebloemer
06-23-2009, 09:18 AM
This is a joke, Nelson is the best player left and should be ahead of a few of these other players. Theres a reason he was picked for the all star game, don't let the finals leave a sour taste in your mouth, he hadn't played for months and was only about 75%.

Jason Kidd is getting votes strictly off reputation and calderon was only better in assits and free throw shooting. You have to take into account that although Jameer only averaged 5.4 assists per game, Hedo handled the ball a lot as well and averages 5 himself. Jameer was also playing 3 less minutes a game. After Calderon the next highest was only 3.4 so it shows how much of the ball handling he really does. Jameer also shot above 45% from three while Calderon only shot 40%. Jameer will be an all star again next year. The coaches are the ones who put him in that game, and they are probably more educated about the game than us, whether we want to acknowledge it or not.

Good reasoning, validated my vote.

It was a tough choice for me.

azkarraga
06-23-2009, 09:21 AM
but jose staying still, still had better numbers than jameer (and some other pg's that are higher on the top ten)

Raps08-09 Champ
06-23-2009, 09:22 AM
Lol who on the raptors scored in the playoffs?

Anyways Jameer should be higher than Rose so no point of actually voting. But Mo and Calderon is a tough choice because the first year Jose gets starters minutes the Raptors ******* up.

No one.

But If they were in the playoffs, anyone score more than Williams

Unruly Fan
06-23-2009, 09:26 AM
I said Mo Williams. I'm a wolves fan, so impossible favoritism. It was between him and Nelson for me. They both got their respective teams far in the playoffs (Sort of Nelson) and make their teams better. Mo Williams is overshadowed by LeBron and I think Mo would shine on a different team where it could open up his scoring game a bit.

Kidd would be an easy one, but he's too damn old at this point to be top 10.I disagree with pretty much everything you said here.

Orlando had to bring in Alston in order to pick up Nelson's slack. So to say that he had any hand in getting his team "far" into the playoffs is false.

Mo on the otherhand is overshadowed by LeBron, but he also failed to shine on the Bucks as their starting PG before coming to Cleveland.

todu82
06-23-2009, 09:30 AM
Jason Kidd

Unruly Fan
06-23-2009, 09:31 AM
reputation can only carry you so far, Baron Davis had done little over the last season to warrant being a top 10 pg..I was about to say...

what has Baron Davis done this year to help his team out?

Unruly Fan
06-23-2009, 09:54 AM
This is a joke, Nelson is the best player left and should be ahead of a few of these other players. Theres a reason he was picked for the all star game, don't let the finals leave a sour taste in your mouth, he hadn't played for months and was only about 75%.

Jason Kidd is getting votes strictly off reputation and calderon was only better in assits and free throw shooting. You have to take into account that although Jameer only averaged 5.4 assists per game, Hedo handled the ball a lot as well and averages 5 himself. Jameer was also playing 3 less minutes a game. After Calderon the next highest was only 3.4 so it shows how much of the ball handling he really does. Jameer also shot above 45% from three while Calderon only shot 40%. Jameer will be an all star again next year. The coaches are the ones who put him in that game, and they are probably more educated about the game than us, whether we want to acknowledge it or not.A PGs ability to make assists is the most important facet of their game. Without assists they're no different from SGs imo. You argue that Nelson shot better than Jose from beyond the arc, but then again he's only played in 42 games - Calderon playing 68.

Therefore I choose Calderon. Lowest assist to TO ratio. Great FT% this season. Solid assist production.

ManRam
06-23-2009, 10:20 AM
The last three should be between Calderon, Kidd and Nelson. Mo Williams is just a shooter, and that's pretty much it. Bad passer, bad defender, bad rebounder, bad everything but shooter...and even so, guys like Nelson are better shooters than him. If you are voting for Mo Williams, you should be voting for Nelson instead. He's better at everything.

I love Calderon's game. Great passer, efficient scorer, solid shooter. Kidd's best years are way behind him. Not even a double digit scorer, a straight up BAD shooter. Calderon averages more assists anyways.

Gotta be Calderon. I'd go Nelson next, then Kidd, then Davis (not a fan of 37% shooters, not at all).

And also, people who talk about Jameer's lack of assists have to realize that he is the primary ball-handler, but Hedo does handle it a lot...it's probably 60/40. That's where his assists go. If he was the only ball handler, like 95% of PGs, he'd have many more assists. He is a great passer. Hedo is just one of the 2 or 3 best ball handling forwards in the game. It's not a knock on Nelson.

GCOOKIE7
06-23-2009, 10:20 AM
What if I think jose should be 5th on the list? Do I still vote for 9th? lol kidding

Chronz
06-23-2009, 12:42 PM
but jose staying still, still had better numbers than jameer (and some other pg's that are higher on the top ten)

He didnt have better #'s than Jameer

Zefflin
06-23-2009, 12:44 PM
Kidd than Jose.

Chronz
06-23-2009, 12:48 PM
A PGs ability to make assists is the most important facet of their game. Without assists they're no different from SGs imo. You argue that Nelson shot better than Jose from beyond the arc, but then again he's only played in 42 games - Calderon playing 68.

Therefore I choose Calderon. Lowest assist to TO ratio. Great FT% this season. Solid assist production.

The most important facet of any players game is to be efficient with his possessions. Whether it leads to an assist or made shot, the end result is the same. Dont look at any 1 stat, look at them all. Great ft% thats gotta be the sorriest argument for a player Ive ever heard. Does Calderon even average 2 trips to the foul line a night? What good is being a free throw shooter if you never get there?

What good is a low assist to turnover rate if all you do is facilitate and rarely look to attack? Im not saying Calderon isnt in that class, but Jameer was an All-Star for a reason. Calderon had a down year, but much like the Bulls fans, it wont matter how obvious that fact is. The homers will make up the difference. I already know this list is meaningless and flawed, but Ill come and post just for the debates.

Calderon could be the better PG, but he certainly didnt prove it this year.

Tom81
06-23-2009, 12:49 PM
Baron Davis

Chronz
06-23-2009, 12:55 PM
The last three should be between Calderon, Kidd and Nelson. Mo Williams is just a shooter, and that's pretty much it. Bad passer, bad defender, bad rebounder, bad everything but shooter...and even so, guys like Nelson are better shooters than him. If you are voting for Mo Williams, you should be voting for Nelson instead. He's better at everything.

I love Calderon's game. Great passer, efficient scorer, solid shooter. Kidd's best years are way behind him. Not even a double digit scorer, a straight up BAD shooter. Calderon averages more assists anyways.

Gotta be Calderon. I'd go Nelson next, then Kidd, then Davis (not a fan of 37% shooters, not at all).

And also, people who talk about Jameer's lack of assists have to realize that he is the primary ball-handler, but Hedo does handle it a lot...it's probably 60/40. That's where his assists go. If he was the only ball handler, like 95% of PGs, he'd have many more assists. He is a great passer. Hedo is just one of the 2 or 3 best ball handling forwards in the game. It's not a knock on Nelson.
Dont make excuses for a players lack of production. There are advantages to every role, and every players game is suited differently for those advantages. Without Hedo's playmaking and scoring touch, Jameers efficiency drops. Really though I doubt #'s would change all that much.

Dont feel like you need to make excuses just because a Calderon fan is boasting his high per game averages. Statistically they are pretty much equals, if anything Jameer holds the edge. What separates them is that Jameer made the All-Star team, while Calderon has a **** load of fans.

Sadly as we all saw with Devin vs Rose, the fans are all that matter.

chuckdaily85
06-23-2009, 01:04 PM
I voted Jameer alos...Jason Kidd's a future HOF'er and Jose was great last year...but Nelson was an all-star this year before the injury and clearly was having the best season out of the remaining Point Guards on the list

Lakerfrk
06-23-2009, 01:08 PM
I cannot believe Baron Davis is not in the top 10....

azkarraga
06-23-2009, 01:12 PM
He didnt have better #'s than Jameer

he did.
apg, calderon 8,9. jameer 5,4 (calderon is #4 in the league)
double-doubles, calderon 22. jameer 3
ppp, calderon, 12.8. jameer 16.7 (thats the only stat where jameer seems higher tan jose, and still not by much)

next time, do your homework, please.

J_M_B
06-23-2009, 01:13 PM
I voted for Jose Calerdon

J_M_B
06-23-2009, 01:14 PM
followed by Kidd and Jameer

J_M_B
06-23-2009, 01:16 PM
I refuse to vote. Mo Williams is being despised now. I just got a question on how Nash is that high up right now when the Suns didn't even make the playoffs with 2 other star players?

Oh and how is Calderon soo high or being picked over Mo? Calderon plays with a star player and still didn't make the playoffs.

Mo Williams isn't even a top 10 pg.

mavwar53
06-23-2009, 01:20 PM
miller gets no love, I look and see many people want him on the warriors and a few other forums that want him, he took his team to the playoffs, put nash on that team and they wouldn't have made it, he is the leader of the sixers and yet gets no respect. Do people still despise him because he didn't dunk it the rookie sophomore years ago?

danidin
06-23-2009, 01:21 PM
reputation can only carry you so far, Baron Davis had done little over the last season to warrant being a top 10 pg..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6crtc48UP_4

timeout in BARON'S HOUSE.


Calderon have a house?


my top 10:

paul
d-will
billups
parker
rondo
rose
harris
nash
davis
kidd


but if everybody on their best, the top 5:

paul
kidd
nash
davis
williams

DaBUU
06-23-2009, 01:30 PM
No love for Nelson :mad:

He got my vote, tough little PG IMO

AFlagRules
06-23-2009, 01:32 PM
Calderon - 16/10 when healthy (easily)..

Also, I don't consider Harris or Rose point guards...Both look for their own shot before they look to pass.

Chronz
06-23-2009, 01:46 PM
he did.
apg, calderon 8,9. jameer 5,4 (calderon is #4 in the league)
double-doubles, calderon 22. jameer 3
ppp, calderon, 12.8. jameer 16.7 (thats the only stat where jameer seems higher tan jose, and still not by much)

next time, do your homework, please.
He didnt.
--------- Usage% (Offensive RTG) (Team.O)
Jameer-- 23.2 (120) (109.2, 11TH) *Around 5th when he was healthy
Calderon- 16.9 (123) (107.0, 22ND)
Reb.R:
Jameer + 1.3% on a better rebounding team
Lower Turnover Ratio

Calderon is the better passer, and that makes it close. But every advanced metric rates Jameer as the better player this year. So how does he have the better #'s?

Homework huh, next time dont compare your gradeschool math, to my middle school math lol... no seriously though your looking at outdated metrics, its no wonder you dont know what your talking about.

greg_ory_2005
06-23-2009, 01:56 PM
miller gets no love, I look and see many people want him on the warriors and a few other forums that want him, he took his team to the playoffs, put nash on that team and they wouldn't have made it, he is the leader of the sixers and yet gets no respect. Do people still despise him because he didn't dunk it the rookie sophomore years ago?

Miller is a very solid PG. Just not the best left on the poll.

azkarraga
06-23-2009, 03:45 PM
He didnt.
--------- Usage% (Offensive RTG) (Team.O)
Jameer-- 23.2 (120) (109.2, 11TH) *Around 5th when he was healthy
Calderon- 16.9 (123) (107.0, 22ND)
Reb.R:
Jameer + 1.3% on a better rebounding team
Lower Turnover Ratio

Calderon is the better passer, and that makes it close. But every advanced metric rates Jameer as the better player this year. So how does he have the better #'s?

Homework huh, next time dont compare your gradeschool math, to my middle school math lol... no seriously though your looking at outdated metrics, its no wonder you dont know what your talking about.

lets see. basically what your avant garde metrics states is:

1.- Offensive RTG. jameer makes more points every 100 possesions. Well, i guess my outdated system says about the same thing as i've already conceded. but, and you will be with me, the difference is not that much. And its funny how for jameer injuries do count (he was #5 when healthy), when they do not for calderon. or that's just another proof of your higher maths? (just kidding)

2.- Rebound rate. Are you really serious about that? Are we going to choose a PG based on the Rebound rate? To me, that's more physics than maths. lol.

3.- Turnover Ratio. No math here? Just because you say so? My math tells me: calderon-> 5.56; nelson->4.31.

And that just if we discuss your metrics, which i agree are more advanced. but i have to disagree jameer # are better.


EDIT: there's one thing i must admit: jameer helped his team get to the finals. calderon, well, he just didn't.

Chronz
06-23-2009, 05:28 PM
lets see. basically what your avant garde metrics states is:

1.- Offensive RTG. jameer makes more points every 100 possesions. Well, i guess my outdated system says about the same thing as i've already conceded. but, and you will be with me, the difference is not that much. And its funny how for jameer injuries do count (he was #5 when healthy), when they do not for calderon. or that's just another proof of your higher maths? (just kidding)

2.- Rebound rate. Are you really serious about that? Are we going to choose a PG based on the Rebound rate? To me, that's more physics than maths. lol.

3.- Turnover Ratio. No math here? Just because you say so? My math tells me: calderon-> 5.56; nelson->4.31.

And that just if we discuss your metrics, which i agree are more advanced. but i have to disagree jameer # are better.


EDIT: there's one thing i must admit: jameer helped his team get to the finals. calderon, well, he just didn't.
1- Offensive RTG is used in conjunction with Usage%, its like Rushing Yards Per carry, and how many carries he had. Pretty much the same concept, and no its not close. Your right about Calderon's injuries, if I cared all that much Id look into both players and how they impacted their teams offenses but in the end I already know Ill come to the same conclusion I started off with, Jameer had better stats.

2- Reb. Rate is still a stat but I agree not as important for PG's, though it still needs to be examined.

3- Your math is wrong, those arent the #'s for turnover rates, do you even know what Turnover Rates are? Heres a hint, its not Turnovers Per Game.....

If you disagree that Jameer's #'s are better then you dont know much about stats. Again every advanced metric (The ones I didnt name PER, WinShares, T-Rating, Tendex(?), Rolands, WARP/VORP, just about every credible weighted metric) say Jameer has the better #'s even the non-weighted stats (Adj. +/-) support the Jameer bandwagon. So what exactly do you have going for you, other than the compelling argument that is, I disagree......?


And as for your must admit part, Jameer didnt even play in the playoffs so how did he help them get to the finals?

Literally everything you said was wrong, again Im not saying Calderon isnt the better player because quite frankly Im not sold that Jameer is as good as he let on this year. And he has a history of up and down seasons, but the fact remains, he outplayed Calderon this year.

SeoulBeatz
06-23-2009, 05:43 PM
i voted jameer. i like calderon but the more toronto games i watched the less of an IMPACT player he seems to be. He cant takeover games like most of the other PG's in this league. He is EXTREMELY efficient but those numbers were empty because he was on a losing but talented team and he just cant lead a team. he isnt a leader.

dtmagnet
06-23-2009, 05:45 PM
Jameer Nelson and Jose Calderon should round out the 9 and 10 spots, doesn't really make much difference which one is 9 and which one is 10.

Uz13
06-23-2009, 05:50 PM
Jose, Solid PG.

Vinny642
06-23-2009, 05:52 PM
I said Bdiddy but it can be anyone here.

Jays Claw
06-23-2009, 06:02 PM
Jose Calderon.

Jays Claw
06-23-2009, 06:04 PM
I voted jameer. i like calderon but the more toronto games i watched the less of an IMPACT player he seems to be. He cant takeover games like most of the other PG's in this league. He is EXTREMELY efficient but those numbers were empty because he was on a losing but talented team and he just cant lead a team. he isnt a leader.

Since when did point guards start taking over games?

They are supposed to be good ball distributors and floor generals.

I do agree that Jose Calderon needs to become more of a leader.

azkarraga
06-23-2009, 06:08 PM
1- Offensive RTG is used in conjunction with Usage%, its like Rushing Yards Per carry, and how many carries he had. Pretty much the same concept, and no its not close. Your right about Calderon's injuries, if I cared all that much Id look into both players and how they impacted their teams offenses but in the end I already know Ill come to the same conclusion I started off with, Jameer had better stats.

2- Reb. Rate is still a stat but I agree not as important for PG's, though it still needs to be examined.

3- Your math is wrong, those arent the #'s for turnover rates, do you even know what Turnover Rates are? Heres a hint, its not Turnovers Per Game.....

If you disagree that Jameer's #'s are better then you dont know much about stats. Again every advanced metric (The ones I didnt name PER, WinShares, T-Rating, Tendex(?), Rolands, WARP/VORP, just about every credible weighted metric) say Jameer has the better #'s even the non-weighted stats (Adj. +/-) support the Jameer bandwagon. So what exactly do you have going for you, other than the compelling argument that is, I disagree......?


And as for your must admit part, Jameer didnt even play in the playoffs so how did he help them get to the finals?

Literally everything you said was wrong, again Im not saying Calderon isnt the better player because quite frankly Im not sold that Jameer is as good as he let on this year. And he has a history of up and down seasons, but the fact remains, he outplayed Calderon this year.

ok. so we know leave the realms of math and go into the kingdom of logic. I like it, even though yours aint consistent enough. Or, at least, not enough to make me wanna refute you. but let me recapitulate, just for the sake of it. my argument was, calderon has better figures than jarmeer. THIS year, obviously. Or so the ancient stats is what they say. And then came thy, the master of the new math, to tell me that my math are no math anymore. Then, myself, humble, accepted your word and went to the new numbers. What did i found: yes, jameer its a better scorer (dont need new maths for that, in fact i dont need any math for that); and yes, jameer is a better REBOUNDER.

So, if thats what makes a better PG for you and your new systems (lol), im willing to take my vote back and vote for jameer.

Yes, im being an ***hole. but so are you. and that doesnt make us any better posters, no matter what math.

have a good day.

Chronz
06-23-2009, 06:22 PM
ok. so we know leave the realms of math and go into the kingdom of logic. I like it, even though yours aint consistent enough. Or, at least, not enough to make me wanna refute you. but let me recapitulate, just for the sake of it. my argument was, calderon has better figures than jarmeer. THIS year, obviously. Or so the ancient stats is what they say. And then came thy, the master of the new math, to tell me that my math are no math anymore. Then, myself, humble, accepted your word and went to the new numbers. What did i found: yes, jameer its a better scorer (dont need new maths for that, in fact i dont need any math for that); and yes, jameer is a better REBOUNDER.

So, if thats what makes a better PG for you and your new systems (lol), im willing to take my vote back and vote for jameer.

Yes, im being an ***hole. but so are you. and that doesnt make us any better posters, no matter what math.

have a good day.
Ive never left the math aspect
The point isnt in knowing hes a better scorer, its about knowing HOW MUCH of a better scorer he is.

PS Whats your first language, Im just curious

azkarraga
06-23-2009, 06:28 PM
german.
but not by much from spanish. you know, german mother, spanish father.
and to make it harder, living in france.

anyway, you might be right but i still prefer calderon. and i just hope i havent been too... dont know how to say it, rude or idiot. whatever, its been a pleasure, sometimes this forum aint too demanding.

just one thing, you didnt get the irony of jameer taking his team to the finals? its a shame this thing with languages.

Chronz
06-23-2009, 06:32 PM
Thats very impressive, Im still trying to get my spanish back to where it was, I couldnt imagine pulling that off in your environment.

And no your not being rude or an idiot, I just took offense to when you told me to look it up. I didnt look it up but its because I knew the 2 were very comparable statistically. If your gonna separate these 2, it has to be something other than stats. Atleast the raw stats. But really this is a case where any separation (much like the stats) is going to be slight. It totally depends on the type of PG your team needs.

If it makes you feel any better Id rather have Calderon on my team, but Jameer was an All-Star for a reason.

azkarraga
06-24-2009, 03:53 AM
Yeah, you're right. Jameer has been all-star. and that means a lot.

ink
06-24-2009, 05:10 AM
i voted jameer. i like calderon but the more toronto games i watched the less of an IMPACT player he seems to be. He cant takeover games like most of the other PG's in this league. He is EXTREMELY efficient but those numbers were empty because he was on a losing but talented team and he just cant lead a team. he isnt a leader.

No one is ever going to mistake Calderon for CP3. He's a facilitator, which is just fine in a PG. Plus he played most of the season injured, didn't have much in the way of lateral movement, couldn't drive to the rim, and therefore had to rely far more than usual on his excellent jumpshot. Only near the end of the season when he was finally getting healthy again and he had some great options to dish to did we see Calderon's value. Is he 9th, 10th, 4th, 5th, 6th? I don't really care much. He's a good PG and we didn't see him play at full strength. As for being a leader, you have to be more familiar with the team to see the way he leads.

J-Relo
06-24-2009, 06:56 AM
calderon

CELTICS4LYFE
06-24-2009, 08:11 AM
what did bd fall of the face of the earth now???

koreancabbage
06-24-2009, 09:07 AM
what did bd fall of the face of the earth now???

since he became a clipper.
being a clipper in this day and age means nothing. thus BD is nothing. its a place where you get paid and results don't matter, kinda like kindergarten. having the mentality that everyone wins is the key to having a good day in Clipper land ;)

Sly Guy
06-24-2009, 10:47 AM
No one is ever going to mistake Calderon for CP3. He's a facilitator, which is just fine in a PG. Plus he played most of the season injured, didn't have much in the way of lateral movement, couldn't drive to the rim, and therefore had to rely far more than usual on his excellent jumpshot. Only near the end of the season when he was finally getting healthy again and he had some great options to dish to did we see Calderon's value. Is he 9th, 10th, 4th, 5th, 6th? I don't really care much. He's a good PG and we didn't see him play at full strength. As for being a leader, you have to be more familiar with the team to see the way he leads.

+1

Jose is a stellar PG, but he was hurt this year. Does that mean he falls in the rankings? Potentially, but it's hard as a raps fan to sit back and pick his game apart speaking of flaws that were there because of a bum hamstring. If he's gonna slip this year, then so-be-it. He'll change a lot of people's minds next year if he stays healthy.