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FaceDown91
06-18-2009, 10:50 PM
I was arguing with one of my friends about al jeff and Amare. Basically he was saying Al Jeff is only averging great stats because he's on a crappy team. I thought that was just complete BS and made a counter arguement that "I would avg over 20 points too if i had steve nash passing me the freakin ball".

Then he was just blabbing how Steve Nash is not even close to the same anymore. And i was like "He's still a top 5 PG in the league, would rather have him then any other T-Wolves on the team beside Al-Jeff". Then he laughed and said hell no.

So then i was like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9dZAng99iQ&feature=channel_page

Because he thinks Steve Nash is not better then any other player on the Wolves right now beside Al Jeff. He never said who because i was pretty much done talking.

So it's basically 2 things. One, Who's better now Amare or Al Jeff? I said Al Jeff and he said Amare.

Two, Is Steve Nash still really good and is he better then every other player on the Wolves beside Al Jeff?

dodie53
06-18-2009, 10:58 PM
imo,
al jeff > amare

nash > anyone from the twolves besides al jeff

VCaintdead17
06-18-2009, 11:00 PM
imo,
al jeff > amare

nash > anyone from the twolves besides al jeff

x100000000

JPHX
06-18-2009, 11:00 PM
steve nash and Amare stoudemire are only good if the system and their surrounding personnel and coaching staff complement their style. anything associated with the word Defense and they disappear.

Duncan = Donkey
06-18-2009, 11:06 PM
amare averged 20 a game without nash though.
but nash did make a beast when amare averged 26 a game that one year.

Duncan = Donkey
06-18-2009, 11:07 PM
if amare was the first option on the timberwolved and was allowed to take 25-20 shots a game i reckon he's averge 23 game easily, which is what all jeff is doing

Zefflin
06-18-2009, 11:12 PM
At the most I'd say STAT could avg 30 ppg and Big Al could avg 27 (and throw in 10 rpg for each)...both are still getting better, both are beastley. I'd pick Al though cause I like his defense better.

And yes Nash is still a top 5 PG in the NBA.

Duncan = Donkey
06-18-2009, 11:13 PM
amare is better on offense - amare: 21.5 a game, while only taking 14 shots a game
al jeff: 23 a game, while taking 20 shots a game

both suck on defense - ive seen bith play, amare is probaly worse though

jeff is a better rebounder - 11>8

cwilson21
06-18-2009, 11:14 PM
Disagree. Amare has nothing close to Jefferson's post moves which is why he scored so many points. We played a lot of half-court ball unlike the Suns. Amare needs an uptempo, fast-paced offense to have success.

29$JerZ
06-18-2009, 11:14 PM
Come playoff time i rather have the low post scoring 20 PF than the Athletic/Midrange PF Amar'e.

Sounds weird but I like AL a lot more than Amar'e

Duncan = Donkey
06-18-2009, 11:15 PM
At the most I'd say STAT could avg 30 ppg and Big Al could avg 27 (and throw in 10 rpg for each)...both are still getting better, both are beastley. I'd pick Al though cause I like his defense better.

And yes Nash is still a top 5 PG in the NBA.

agreed, i dont know how anyone can say other wise

Duncan = Donkey
06-18-2009, 11:19 PM
Disagree. Amare has nothing close to Jefferson's post moves which is why he scored so many points. We played a lot of half-court ball unlike the Suns. Amare needs an uptempo, fast-paced offense to have success.

well amare has never been in a half court offense as the first option.
so i dont see how that is true. I agree it helps him alot, but i still think he'd averge 20 a game if he was in the situtation al jeff is.

Hawkeye15
06-18-2009, 11:22 PM
um, give Big Al 5 uncontested layups/dunks a game, he is going for 26 ppg too. Add on top of that his one on one scoring ability in the post and the fact that he avgs 11 rpg, is younger, and makes less money, I think its pretty easy who you would take

Zefflin
06-18-2009, 11:24 PM
agreed, i dont know how anyone can say other wise

Check out that Top PG thread right there, he'll be #5.

joeboow90
06-18-2009, 11:28 PM
i wish i saw AL Jeff play 1 game this past year. i know he put up great numbers but i dint see him play at all. Amare's a dominating offense player and not so good defensively so i'd have 2 say Amare is the better player. if amare is paired with a good defensive big man then that team would be great so AMARE > AL JEFF

Duncan = Donkey
06-18-2009, 11:28 PM
he better be^^

Duncan = Donkey
06-18-2009, 11:30 PM
um, give Big Al 5 uncontested layups/dunks a game, he is going for 26 ppg too. Add on top of that his one on one scoring ability in the post and the fact that he avgs 11 rpg, is younger, and makes less money, I think its pretty easy who you would take

i would take all jeff, i just reckon amare is better offensive player. regardless of who is pg, he will score (see when marbuty and barbosa were playing PG) his points.

Catfish1314
06-18-2009, 11:37 PM
Jefferson is far more refined offensively. Amare has better range and is far more athletic, even after his surgery. But I would take Al's post game, superior rebounding, and will to play in the post, I repeat will to play in the post over Amare any day. Defensively, neither are incredibly noteworthy but from what I saw of Jefferson last season, he continues to improve. Amare is a great pick and roll player but he's been the beneficiary of a great playmaker his whole career. He is a very gifted offensive player (great hands, soft touch, midrange shot, explosivness), but I'd like to see him and Jefferson switch places for half a season.

Duncan = Donkey
06-18-2009, 11:40 PM
so would i, id love too see amare avarge 20+ a game with an avarge PG............oh wait he's already done that!

NYK|NYY
06-18-2009, 11:55 PM
Al Jeff for me.

Joshtd1
06-19-2009, 12:01 AM
Al Jeff is better then Amare, and yes Nash is better then anyone on the Wolves. Nash is still a stud PG

Joshtd1
06-19-2009, 12:03 AM
i wish i saw AL Jeff play 1 game this past year. i know he put up great numbers but i dint see him play at all. Amare's a dominating offense player and not so good defensively so i'd have 2 say Amare is the better player. if amare is paired with a good defensive big man then that team would be great so AMARE > AL JEFF

I dont see the logic there, in which that would make Amare>Al....someone could easily say the same for Al Jeff, that if he was paired with a good defensive big that team would be better..

SeoulBeatz
06-19-2009, 12:05 AM
Amare is a better offensive player than people are giving him credit for. just sayin

Catfish1314
06-19-2009, 12:15 AM
so would i, id love too see amare avarge 20+ a game with an avarge PG............oh wait he's already done that!

When was this? When he played with Marbury, Marbury was still a 20 and 8 player. And then he went from Marbury to Nash. Where does that average point guard come in? I hope you aren't referring to Nash. He isn't what he used to be, but Nash is still a top 10 PG.

nikefreek220
06-19-2009, 12:17 AM
Amare and Al Jeff have two different styles.
STAT is a power guy kinda like D.Howard but not as good.
And Al Jeff has back to the basket moves and has more potential, Al is the better rebounder and better defensive player.

that makes Al Jefferson more valuable and better.

THE MTL
06-19-2009, 12:34 AM
Amare Stoudamaire is BETTER than Al Jefferson. STAT would average 25ppg on the Wolves.

Duncan = Donkey
06-19-2009, 12:35 AM
When was this? When he played with Marbury, Marbury was still a 20 and 8 player. And then he went from Marbury to Nash. Where does that average point guard come in? I hope you aren't referring to Nash. He isn't what he used to be, but Nash is still a top 10 PG.

yes marbury he was never a great playmaker....and then he was traded and it was barbosa playing PG....hardly a good PG.

and believe me i wasnt reffering to nash being an average PG, i still think he is top 3.

king4day
06-19-2009, 12:39 AM
imo,
al jeff > amare

nash > anyone from the twolves besides al jeff

Offensively, Amare is better. Overall, it's AJ. So I agree with Dodie.

IversonIsKrazy
06-19-2009, 12:42 AM
Nash is still a top 5 PG. Big AL has the best post moves rite now in the league.

Tom2634
06-19-2009, 12:51 AM
I'll take Big Al all day. Although he does his best work around the rim, he is developing a better jumpshot around 15-17 ft, and when he's hitting it it's game over for the defense as he does have some ability to put the ball on the floor, he's not going to cross anyone over but he can bring it in. The fact that he doesn't rely on his athletic ability means he doesn't slow down against bigger players on the offensive end, his numbers against Yao and houston are great (34 and 13,36 and 22 in their last two meetings). He tore his ACL (I believe) this season but he doesn't rely on his athletic ability as much so he should have a pretty long prime.

He needs to work on passing out of the double and occasional triple team but if he gets a player he trusts on the perimeter that should come more naturally. If he can work on being a more solid defender who just contains another post scorer and doesn't try to block a ton of shots he'll be in the conversation as one of the best bigs in the game.

Kabowdos
06-19-2009, 01:24 AM
I'd take Amare. Jeff is on a terrible team. Amare has been nasty for years. He can shoot the jumper and play down low. Jeff is great, but Amare is a star. I'm sorry.

Nash is still great. I just don't believe in those point guard oriented teams such as CP3, D Williams, Stockton, Nash, etc... rarely do you see a team win championships when their PG is their best player.

BallersTalk.com
06-19-2009, 01:32 AM
if amare was the first option on the timberwolved and was allowed to take 25-20 shots a game i reckon he's averge 23 game easily, which is what all jeff is doing

He wouldn't grab 11 boards a game though, which is what Al Jeff is doing.

Duncan = Donkey
06-19-2009, 01:57 AM
He wouldn't grab 11 boards a game though, which is what Al Jeff is doing.

i never said he would my man. i already stated earlier al jeff is clearly a better rebounder. the only thing im arguing is amare is a better offensive player.

Master Mind
06-19-2009, 02:02 AM
Amare>AJ

thesparky33
06-19-2009, 02:58 AM
If Amare is so much better than Al Jefferson, then why is Phoenix desperately trying to trade him for the last year or so, and continue to do it, all the while Minnesota has made it very clear that Big Al is untouchable?

I think that says it all.

ggg
06-19-2009, 03:13 AM
I think the twolves got direction in terms of what theyr planning to do for the next 2-3 years. thats al jeff's team, its interesting what they can do next season. I think theyr gonna be competing for the 8th spot. theyr gonna be at 9th or 10th.

Amare tho, im not sure with this dude. So far it has been proven he is not there defensively. if he's gonna go to a mediocre team to be the man, i like to see him in Philly with a great offensive coach Eddie Jordan or at Washington with a defensive and half court type of offense coach in Flip Saunders.

Duncan = Donkey
06-19-2009, 03:42 AM
If Amare is so much better than Al Jefferson, then why is Phoenix desperately trying to trade him for the last year or so, and continue to do it, all the while Minnesota has made it very clear that Big Al is untouchable?

I think that says it all.

cause amare might opt out, and they want something in return. jeez use your brain.

and there not "desperatley" tryin to move amare, they arnt trading him for a bag of chips.

BallersTalk.com
06-19-2009, 04:05 AM
i never said he would my man. i already stated earlier al jeff is clearly a better rebounder. the only thing im arguing is amare is a better offensive player.
Amare is a better face-up offensive player. Al Jeff's post game is light years ahead of Amare's.

Duncan = Donkey
06-19-2009, 04:29 AM
lol, i know ^^

Chronz
06-19-2009, 04:45 AM
Come playoff time i rather have the low post scoring 20 PF than the Athletic/Midrange PF Amar'e.

Sounds weird but I like AL a lot more than Amar'e

Its feels weird to say because Amares has the more successful career but people take it away from him because he played with Nash, as if thats some how his fault.

But still I agree on this one, Jefferson is soft spoken and a great cornerstone for any franchise. His skills dont diminish with age and you know once he understands passing from the post, hes going to hit that same point Dream did in his mid 20's where it all just comes together. With Amare, I know hes been far better than Jefferson, lets not kid ourselves, Nash doesnt make players into superstars.

Duncan = Donkey
06-19-2009, 04:57 AM
Its feels weird to say because Amares has the more successful career but people take it away from him because he played with Nash, as if thats some how his fault.

But still I agree on this one, Jefferson is soft spoken and a great cornerstone for any franchise. His skills dont diminish with age and you know once he understands passing from the post, hes going to hit that same point Dream did in his mid 20's where it all just comes together. With Amare, I know hes been far better than Jefferson, lets not kid ourselves, Nash doesnt make players into superstars.

you sure???

amare without nash in 03/04 - 20pts on 47% shooting
amare with nash in 04/05 - 26pts on 56% shooting

thats an unbelivable increase, espcially on shooting %.
amare was good without nash, but he was a mother****en beast with nash.

JayW_1023
06-19-2009, 05:48 AM
Jefferson is the better overall basketball player. Sure Amare makes SportsCenter more often but that doesn't make him better. For a 6'10 250 pound guy Amare is an atrocious rebounder and defender, two vital parts of being a great big man.

Jefferson needs to work on his defense himself...but at least he is doing that. And his rebounding is terrific on both ends. The answer is easy...Jefferson is the more complete player...and he is already developing a jumper as well. Scary.

S-Dot
06-19-2009, 10:05 AM
imo,
al jeff > amare

nash > anyone from the twolves besides al jeff

Al Jeff is a better all-around player, Amare will give you the highlights...if there was a fantasy draft and it was between those two, i would def take al jeff

Hustla23
06-19-2009, 10:08 AM
I think Amare is better than Jefferson as of now but meh that's just my opinion.

FaceDown91
06-19-2009, 11:04 AM
I think Amare is better than Jefferson as of now but meh that's just my opinion.

a why or explaining would make ur opinion worth wild :)

Chronz
06-19-2009, 11:44 AM
um, give Big Al 5 uncontested layups/dunks a game, he is going for 26 ppg too. Add on top of that his one on one scoring ability in the post and the fact that he avgs 11 rpg, is younger, and makes less money, I think its pretty easy who you would take

Al wouldnt be able to get most of those layups or dunks because he lacks the proper combination of shooting and athletic prowess. And really now, people overestimate the impact Nash has on Amare in fact this was the one year (unless theres more) where his #'s without Nash on the court werent any different from his #'s with Nash, though some of this had to do with the coaching change making them less dependent on Nash.

Chronz
06-19-2009, 11:45 AM
When was this? When he played with Marbury, Marbury was still a 20 and 8 player. And then he went from Marbury to Nash. Where does that average point guard come in? I hope you aren't referring to Nash. He isn't what he used to be, but Nash is still a top 10 PG.
Marbury was a great pick and pop player, he was never a pick and roll find your big type of PG and Amare back then didnt have a midrange jumper. But yes he had a very decent playmaker and not a bad option for a rookie to have, but still its not as if Marbury was setting him up like JKidd, Marbs was a ball hog, Amare's #'s went up when Marbury left the team, he played brilliantly down the stretch (24 and 10 after the A.S.Break). When his PG was an undersized SG who couldnt create for anyone but himself.

icon1914
06-19-2009, 11:53 AM
If Amare is so much better than Al Jefferson, then why is Phoenix desperately trying to trade him for the last year or so, and continue to do it, all the while Minnesota has made it very clear that Big Al is untouchable?

I think that says it all.

I think that says jack$***!!!!

They are two different organizations with different priorities. Al is locked up for like 4 more years, why trade him? He has not shown a disinterest with playing for the Wolves.... he could be a great person to build around, but that is yet to be seen since they have not won many games.

STAT, on the other hand, is about to be a Free Agent next year. The Suns are trying to get something for him just in case he bolts. He has expressed concern over his touches and the direction that the team is headed. The offices would be stupid to declare him "untouchable" if they obviously see he might not be there after this season.

Chronz
06-19-2009, 12:06 PM
you sure???

amare without nash in 03/04 - 20pts on 47% shooting
amare with nash in 04/05 - 26pts on 56% shooting

thats an unbelivable increase, espcially on shooting %.
amare was good without nash, but he was a mother****en beast with nash.

You would have a very solid case if you could show me another player that plateaued at age 21, particularly bigmen. Then you have to factor in the coaching switch and overall change in philosophy and positions.

A more relevant study would be to show his offensive stats in that time frame with Nash alongside him, and then with Nash on the bench.

04/05
W/Nash: 29.5PPG (58FG%), 1.7Ast 2.3T.o.
W/Out : 28.0PPG (53FG%), 2.0Ast, 3.3T.o.

I kind of rushed the math so Im not 100% sure on the #'s but at worst they are only off by 8% or so.

After that I looked over his entire career, yes there is a positive influence, but the most substantial came their first year together, after that as Amare improved the Nash effect minimized, but at the same time the same thing could be said about Amare's effect on Nash, Nash always shoots a higher% when Amare is in the game. They benefit from eachothers presence in their given role, but the fact remains without one another they are still superstars.

icon1914
06-19-2009, 12:10 PM
The whole Al debate can be ended with two words...

VIN BAKER

Now, before you Al supporters go off the handle please understand that I am not saying they are similar on a skill level, but there paths are very similar.

Vin Baker played for the Bucks, a mediocre team at the time, and put up solid numbers (21/10) in his last two years with him. A lot of people thought he was maybe a very underrated player, could have maybe been one of the best PFs in the league on a better team. He ended up getting traded to the Sonics, a much better team and you know what happened? All of his numbers decreased. His stats went down almost every season, and his playoff performance was a joke.

Being on a real team, with goals of winning a title exposed Vin Baker as what he was... a guy that could find ways to fill up his stats, but could not rise to the challenge of the playoffs.

Al Jefferson is putting up soild numbers, but so does Zack Randolph at times. Stats alone prove very little.

Is he talented?.... yes..... Could he be better than Amare?.... Maybe.... But he has yet to be tested in the playoffs. He has yet to help contribute to a team winning more games. Its only a matter of time before the Wolves either get better, or he gets traded to a contender and he has to perform in the post just like he does in the regular season.

Maybe he will do exceptional in the playoffs... but no one really knows... until I know I would take Amare all day long.

Chronz
06-19-2009, 12:38 PM
Ahh the cautionary tale of Vin Baker, well to be frank nothing was wrong with Vin aside from his drinking problem. When Vinny FIRST got to Seattle his stats didnt drop, he had the best year of his career to that point.

The only difference between Baker at age 25 with the Bucks and at 26 was that he replaced quantity with quality like every player should, he got less MPG because he won 61 games but his defensive rebounding inexplicably dropped. I just dont understand it, but he somehow posted up poorer rebounding #'s alongside lesser rebounders, you could argue had Baker done his job on the boards they wouldve won the West as they were the worst rebounding team in the playoffs.


After that it was all down hill destroying what couldve been a very respectable career if not for his personal demons, he made a decent comeback with the C's and I was rooting for him when he joined the Knicks, sad tale

thesparky33
06-19-2009, 01:07 PM
I think that says jack$***!!!!

They are two different organizations with different priorities. Al is locked up for like 4 more years, why trade him? He has not shown a disinterest with playing for the Wolves.... he could be a great person to build around, but that is yet to be seen since they have not won many games.

STAT, on the other hand, is about to be a Free Agent next year. The Suns are trying to get something for him just in case he bolts. He has expressed concern over his touches and the direction that the team is headed. The offices would be stupid to declare him "untouchable" if they obviously see he might not be there after this season.

That's a reason I'd take Al Jeff over Amare.

I'd rather take a player who is soft spoken, and just works his butt off, than a player who b**ches about how many touches he gets.

Its not the sole reason, but its a valid one.

If you want to go into a more "who is a better player" discussion, I would still rather take Al Jeff. Amare has a very limited offensive game, much like Dwight Howard, except Amare has a very good jumper, and does actually have some moves. Amare has relied and still continues to rely on his superior athleticism to score and rebound, yet in 4-5 years, once he isnt more athletic than everyone anymore, unless he has a drastic change of heart and starts working his butt off changing his style of play, he's gonna have a huge dip in his production.

Jefferson, on the other hand, has a style of play that's similar to Duncan, in that he relies on solid footwork, and methodically scores every time down the stretch. Obviously, I'm not comparing him to Duncan as a player, but just his work on the block. He still has a lot of room to grow, and as Chronz pointed out, he lacks being able to pass out of double teams for open teammates.

I just have a hard time seeing how people would rather have Amare than Jefferson, unless you've never seen Jefferson play.

rrude
06-19-2009, 01:27 PM
Maybe no one has seen Al that much. He has real post moves in a time when almost no players do, and he can take over at the end of the game and get cold-blooded. Putting up big stats on a crappy team? Watch out if this guy ever gets on a good team!

Amare just gets over on athleticism, has no work ethic and a big mouth.

But I find this sort of divide all over this board. A lot of fans love flashy athletic players who run the floor and get a lot of dunks. Guys like Jefferson that are more workmanlike don't get the same love. If they saw a guy make a flashy dunk once a lot fans keep saying, 'he's amazing' and ignore the fact that his game's got tons of flaws.

SunsFanIam
06-19-2009, 01:28 PM
Look You guys are trying to compare two PF that have two different styles of play. Al Jeff>then Amar'e in low post. Amar'e>then Al Jeff in athleticism. Amar'e>Al Jeff in midrange shot. Al>Amar'e in Rebounding. As for Defence Its a coin flip to me. I don't think either one of them have great Defencive IQ. I think they both would have great potential at it if they had Big's coaches like D12 has with Patrick Ewing. IMO.

SunsFanIam
06-19-2009, 01:35 PM
as for nash he to me is still top 3 IMO. I think when it comes to passing he is number 1 if not number two. The only person that compares is CP3. Not taking anything away from D.Williams but I just dont think his floor awareness is all that great. Still he is also one of the top three. Overall IMO I would have to rank it

1.)Cp3
2.)D.Williams
3.)Steve Nash
4.)C. Billups

rrude
06-19-2009, 01:36 PM
Look You guys are trying to compare two PF that have two different styles of play. Al Jeff>then Amar'e in low post. Amar'e>then Al Jeff in athleticism. Amar'e>Al Jeff in midrange shot. Al>Amar'e in Rebounding. As for Defence Its a coin flip to me. I don't think either one of them have great Defencive IQ. I think they both would have great potential at it if they had Big's coaches like D12 has with Patrick Ewing. IMO.

Al's range has been stretching out and one of Amare's problems is that he settles for the outside stuff and winds up fading out of games. There's no question which player puts out more consistent effort and does so w/o whining. Hard-working post player with no attitude is hard to find. Athletic guys who slack on D and stop looking for contact, and want star treatment, not that hard to find.

SunsFanIam
06-19-2009, 01:52 PM
Al's range has been stretching out and one of Amare's problems is that he settles for the outside stuff and winds up fading out of games. There's no question which player puts out more consistent effort and does so w/o whining. Hard-working post player with no attitude is hard to find. Athletic guys who slack on D and stop looking for contact, and want star treatment, not that hard to find.

I am not so sure you been watching but I dont think he is settling for outside shots. Those shots that he is taking are 95% of the time wide open. Any player that has a wide open 15 footer and has the range to knock it down but doesnt take it people would say he is to passive. So I believe if your open and you are more then capable of knocking it down then you should do so. As for the attitude yeah he could be doing a better job of keeping his mouth shut but Al Jeff doesnt exactly have to worry about touches does he. He is the 1st option on a bad team. Of course he doesn't have to complain about touches. Also if you are saying you rather have a person that keeps quiet and plays hard but does not complain that would also mean Kobe should have kept his mouth shut about wanting better team mates and he even demanded a trade if it does not happen. By the way his compaints eventually got him Gasol and a Nba championship. Not even saying that compares to what Amar'e is doing but the saying is the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Kakaroach
06-19-2009, 02:04 PM
imo,
al jeff > amare

nash > anyone from the twolves besides al jeff x2

rrude
06-19-2009, 02:14 PM
I am not so sure you been watching but I dont think he is settling for outside shots. Those shots that he is taking are 95% of the time wide open. Any player that has a wide open 15 footer and has the range to knock it down but doesnt take it people would say he is to passive. So I believe if your open and you are more then capable of knocking it down then you should do so. As for the attitude yeah he could be doing a better job of keeping his mouth shut but Al Jeff doesnt exactly have to worry about touches does he. He is the 1st option on a bad team. Of course he doesn't have to complain about touches. Also if you are saying you rather have a person that keeps quiet and plays hard but does not complain that would also mean Kobe should have kept his mouth shut about wanting better team mates and he even demanded a trade if it does not happen. By the way his compaints eventually got him Gasol and a Nba championship. Not even saying that compares to what Amar'e is doing but the saying is the squeaky wheel gets the grease.


I hear some of what you're saying, but Amare tends to get too passive and stops going to to the hole hard and stops playing D hard. And as far as comparing goes, Al has started hitting at 12ft. consistently, so I guess it's how big you rate 3 ft.

I have to call you on the Kobe comparison, though. For one of the top players in the league to call out management and put them on notice that they need to figure it out or you're out of there is an entirely different thing than not being the number one option on your team and complaining about it. A more apt comparison would be Kobe chafing about sharing the spotlight with Shaq, a childish thing that probably cost the two of them a couple more rings. Amare is just not being a good teammate and needs to keep his own house in order--play hard all the time--instead of complaining.

SunsFanIam
06-19-2009, 02:20 PM
I can agree with you on the last part. Amar'e just need to sit at home and work on a few parts of his game. I do believe that I had read an artical recently saying that he could start working out his body soon, so i hope he take that time to add a new level to his game. Kind of what he did with his knee surgery and came back with better free throws and jump shot. I just think Amar'e is better if he would work on his game a little better and less working out his mouth. I see Al jeff not running his mouth and playing a tad better in some areas. So as for potiential They both have it and they are simular in alot of ways and not so at the same time. So I guess I am really saying its just depends on the person and what they are trying to accomplish.

Vee-Rex
06-19-2009, 02:21 PM
LOL

Nash is no longer in the top 5, people. Top 10? Yes. Not top 5. Back in his prime he was top 2 or 3.

In no particular order:

Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Chauncey Billups
Rajon Rondo

All five are better PGs than Nash.

There are also several PGs that are up there with Nash. I guarantee you that Arenas (if he stays healthy) and Devin Harris will put up better numbers than Nash next year.

And just because I know someone will dispute Rondo being better...

Nash is a better shooter and passer than Rondo (not by much on the passing). But Rondo is a better slasher, better rebounder, better hustler, and WAY better defender.

S-Dot
06-19-2009, 02:25 PM
LOL

Nash is no longer in the top 5, people. Top 10? Yes. Not top 5. Back in his prime he was top 2 or 3.

In no particular order:

Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Chauncey Billups
Rajon Rondo

All five are better PGs than Nash.

There are also several PGs that are up there with Nash. I guarantee you that Arenas (if he stays healthy) and Devin Harris will put up better numbers than Nash next year.

And just because I know someone will dispute Rondo being better...

Nash is a better shooter and passer than Rondo (not by much on the passing). But Rondo is a better slasher, better rebounder, better hustler, and WAY better defender.

i think u posted this in the wrong thread

rrude
06-19-2009, 02:29 PM
As a Knicks fan (yeah I know), I keep hearing how we need Amare but every year I watch big Al absolutely tear us up so I guess that's why I have thought a lot about it. Personally I enjoy and miss players with real post moves. Hell I loved broken down Larry Johnson working for buckets under the basket late in his career. So there's no question which player I'd rather watch.

As I said above, I think fans tend to overrate players who do the flashy stuff well--dunks/crossover on O, steals/blocks on D--and tend to underrate players who rely on sound fundamentals.

SunsFanIam
06-19-2009, 02:30 PM
LOL

Nash is no longer in the top 5, people. Top 10? Yes. Not top 5. Back in his prime he was top 2 or 3.

In no particular order:

Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Chauncey Billups
Rajon Rondo

All five are better PGs than Nash.

There are also several PGs that are up there with Nash. I guarantee you that Arenas (if he stays healthy) and Devin Harris will put up better numbers than Nash next year.

And just because I know someone will dispute Rondo being better...

Nash is a better shooter and passer than Rondo (not by much on the passing). But Rondo is a better slasher, better rebounder, better hustler, and WAY better defender.

I do not think Parker is better then nash. I think Parker is a great point gaurd but I think if he lost Duncan and that pick and roll his numbers would drop dramaticly. Same thing goes for Rondo he is not the greatest passer in the world the fact is he is just one hell of a defender. If he was more then the 4th option on the team I think his true colors would show. As of right now I really just see him dribble the ball up and give it to Pierce and he makes the plays from there, Kinda like Turk on the magic. IMO

Vee-Rex
06-19-2009, 02:33 PM
I do not think Parker is better then nash. I think Parker is a great point gaurd but I think if he lost Duncan and that pick and roll his numbers would drop dramaticly. Same thing goes for Rondo he is not the greatest passer in the world the fact is he is just one hell of a defender. If he was more then the 4th option on the team I think his true colors would show. As of right now I really just see him dribble the ball up and give it to Pierce and he makes the plays from there, Kinda like Turk on the magic. IMO

Solid and respectable opinion. I think if Nash was at least decent on defense then he'd definitely be in the top 5.

SunsFanIam
06-19-2009, 02:43 PM
Solid and respectable opinion. I think if Nash was at least decent on defense then he'd definitely be in the top 5.

I can respect that. I also think that is not going to happen. He just is not as fast as he use to be so these younger guys have an edge on him in that department. I think maybe in his early days he could have done something about it but now I think it is just to late.

Brooklyn Mets
06-19-2009, 02:48 PM
Come playoff time i rather have the low post scoring 20 PF than the Athletic/Midrange PF Amar'e.

Sounds weird but I like AL a lot more than Amar'e

i def agree with that..
the pick and roll doesn't always work and without that what would amare's stat line look like?

SunsFanIam
06-19-2009, 02:50 PM
i def agree with that..
the pick and roll doesn't always work and without that what would amare's stat line look like?

I would say about the same. I only say this because this year the pick and roll was not there for them this year becuase Shaq pretty much clogged up the lane and which limited Amar'e ability to get to the basket.

Hawkeye15
06-19-2009, 02:53 PM
Al wouldnt be able to get most of those layups or dunks because he lacks the proper combination of shooting and athletic prowess. And really now, people overestimate the impact Nash has on Amare in fact this was the one year (unless theres more) where his #'s without Nash on the court werent any different from his #'s with Nash, though some of this had to do with the coaching change making them less dependent on Nash.

what he lacks in athletic ability is beyond canceled out in the number of moves around the basket he has, and if Al gets a step at the rim, he dunks the crap out of it. His 15 foot jumper is becoming very good as well.
And I am not overestimating the impact Nash has on Amare. Amare is a good pick and roll player, and Nash is still the best outside Paul at getting where he wants, keeping the dribble alive, and giving easy looks. Jefferson sees 2-3 defenders whenever he touches the ball, but still has the ability to turn quick and get to the rim.
The only thing I will concede, is Jefferson would not be a good fit next to Shaq. Jefferson is a true low post player.
Amare on the Wolves would not get 25 ppg. They don't have enough guys to set him up for easy baskets, and he doesn't have enough offense to create and score on his own night in and night out.

SunsFanIam
06-19-2009, 02:53 PM
I would say about the same. I only say this because this year the pick and roll was not there for them this year becuase Shaq pretty much clogged up the lane and which limited Amar'e ability to get to the basket.

also let me add that why Amar'e took more jumpshot because it was easier to take a 15 foot jump shot then it was to go into the paint where several defender were camped out with Shaq.

boeknows
06-19-2009, 03:17 PM
i wish i saw AL Jeff play 1 game this past year. i know he put up great numbers but i dint see him play at all. Amare's a dominating offense player and not so good defensively so i'd have 2 say Amare is the better player. if amare is paired with a good defensive big man then that team would be great so AMARE > AL JEFF

How can u pick one or the other if u havent even seen Al play?

Chronz
06-19-2009, 08:36 PM
what he lacks in athletic ability is beyond canceled out in the number of moves around the basket he has, and if Al gets a step at the rim, he dunks the crap out of it. His 15 foot jumper is becoming very good as well.
Als a good post player when he has the ball given to him on set plays, but is his IQ so high that he can display those moves on the fly with defenders rotating to him before he even touches the ball? The reason Amare and Nash are so deadly is because they both can shoot and Amare has a brilliant face up game that makes up for his lack of back to the basket moves, and with the defense recovering his athletic ability is usually unmatched. Ive never seen Al in that kind of setting, maybe its the lack of playmakers but then I think back when Mike Miller was deadly at PnR with Gasol a similarly skilled bigman to Amare, and wonder where that went in Minny, maybe it was Millers injury or lack of familiarity or maybe hes just declining but how are you so certain Al would benefit just as much as with Nash in a PnR setting? Nash can get you easy buckets, but Amare can create easy passing lanes, I havent seen Jefferson enough to know if he can.


And I am not overestimating the impact Nash has on Amare. Amare is a good pick and roll player, and Nash is still the best outside Paul at getting where he wants, keeping the dribble alive, and giving easy looks. Jefferson sees 2-3 defenders whenever he touches the ball, but still has the ability to turn quick and get to the rim.
Amare is an elite PnR player. And how do you know your not overestimating his impact? Nash helps Amare's game we know that, but he doesnt transform Amare, no player does, unless they are feeble role players. So your not really putting any context to your estimations.

What I know is that Amare is a better finisher in the paint. That is what helps Nash's game more than having someone he can dump the ball down low to. So if your going to say that Nash makes Amare better then you have to concede that Amare makes Nash better than Jefferson would because his game compliments it perfectly.



The only thing I will concede, is Jefferson would not be a good fit next to Shaq. Jefferson is a true low post player.

And Nash/Hill, thats part of Amare's greatness, he can compliment any player on his team. Though hed probably hed probably help JR's game.


Amare on the Wolves would not get 25 ppg. They don't have enough guys to set him up for easy baskets, and he doesn't have enough offense to create and score on his own night in and night out.
And Jefferson on the Suns wouldnt be able to get off as many shots as Amare. What matters most is how effective they are in their current role. And Im sure if Amare were to switch teams, theyd find the right complimentary players to maximize Amares strengths. Its only logical, the Twolves did that for Jefferson by trading for Mike Miller even if its not a much of mutual relationship thus far.