PDA

View Full Version : Andre Berto and Paul Williams



drobe86
06-17-2009, 05:55 PM
I know this is going to ruffle a few feathers. But Andre Berto and Paul Williams are the top two fighters in boxing. People hype up Manny, Cotto, Mayweather, Mosley. Those are the fighters that have the top promoters and are all about money and reputation. No one will even fight these guys. Screw the money Paul Williams is slaughtering any of the guys I mentioned before with the 6'3 frame. I would like to know what you guys think about these 2 guys.

ULT WARRIOR408
06-17-2009, 06:20 PM
Both two are good fighters & PAUL WILLIAMS is one of my favorite current fighters.The thing with PAUL WILLIAMS is that no one & I mean no one is willing to get into the ring with him & the the only reason he's not a top 10 pound for pound fighter is b/c of his lack of activity.
Im not that impressed with ANDRE BERTO like I said he's a good fighter but that last fight he didn't look like :censored:.I think he could beat club fighters & the slightly above average fighters but I don't see him hanging with the PACQUIAO'S,MAYWEATHERS,COTTO'S or the SUGAR SEANS of the world for that matter.With that being said I think its possible for him to one day be major world title holder but don't be surprised if he has a career like BEN TACKIE where he'll go down as a famous challenger.:nod::box:

drobe86
06-17-2009, 06:29 PM
Uhhh don't know if you know but Berto is WBC welterweight champion right now. WBC is widely regarded as the top belt to have.

ULT WARRIOR408
06-17-2009, 06:38 PM
Uhhh don't know if you know but Berto is WBC welterweight champion right now. WBC is widely regarded as the top belt to have.

Oh yeah I forgot but anyway I still say he's not in the same league as the elite fighters in the welterweight class.

H.E.R.
06-17-2009, 06:38 PM
Uhhh don't know if you know but Berto is WBC welterweight champion right now. WBC is widely regarded as the top belt to have.

As far as alphabet titles go, WBC sucks along with the rest of the major organizations like the WBA, WBO, and IBF. The biggest problems with alphabet organizations are sanctioning fees and a fighter doesn't have to defend his title. The procedures for coming up with a list of contenders sucks. Not to mention with those horrible lists, they have mandatory challengers. The Ring, not even an official boxing organization, has the most credible list because a fighter doesn't have to pay sanctioning fees. This means a fighter, whether he likes it or not, has to defend that title against whomever he faces.

With Berto's last showing, he looks like he's a good rising fighter. I wouldn't put him on the level of Pacquiao, Mayweather, Mosley, Cotto, or Clottey just yet.

drobe86
06-17-2009, 06:57 PM
How can you not consider Berto elite? He has the speed and agility that we haven't seen since sugar ray leonard. He is a fairly big welterweight as well...
1. Pacquiao is great and I cannot dispute you there, although I think berto would beat him.

2. Mayweather hasn't fought a guy that could beat him since 2002 (JL Castillo)
3. Mosley hasn't really beaten anyone either, and has some really BAD losses. Seriously Vernon Forrest?
4. Cotto has great fanfare and etc. But again who has he beaten? He sure as hell didn't beat Clottey and Margarito beat him senseless
5. Clottey is a great fighter that just doesn't get his due. And out of the 3 fights he has lost 2 of them were BS fights that he did not lose. this guy just has bad luck.

H.E.R.
06-17-2009, 07:14 PM
1. Pacquiao is great and I cannot dispute you there, although I think berto would beat him.

Quite possible since Pacquiao isn't a natural welterweight. I don't think we'd ever see the two fight since Berto isn't a bigger draw than any of the other top welterweights.


2. Mayweather hasn't fought a guy that could beat him since 2002 (JL Castillo)

I completely agree. I bash him all the time for this, but the man is talented. I get on his case so much for not fighting better competition because he is so talented. However, Mayweather's defensive, flurry, check hook style would be too much for Berto right now.


3. Mosley hasn't really beaten anyone either, and has some really BAD losses. Seriously Vernon Forrest?

You're absolutely right that he had some bad losses against Forrest, Wright, and Cotto. He has a history of two different Mosleys with not knowing which one will show up to a fight. However, he beat a very avoided fighter in Margarito, who had one of the strongest chins in the business, handwraps having nothing to do with that, and knocked him out. He too combines speed and strength.


4. Cotto has great fanfare and etc. But again who has he beaten? He sure as hell didn't beat Clottey and Margarito beat him senseless

Look no further than Mosley. Cotto's only loss is also being disputed due to Margarito's handraps. He has victories over Quintana and like Mayweather, Zab Judah (I will digress that it was a horrible Judah).


5. Clottey is a great fighter that just doesn't get his due. And out of the 3 fights he has lost 2 of them were BS fights that he did not lose. this guy just has bad luck.

I agree about that Baldomir fight also. I still stand by words saying that the Cotto fight was a draw.

But when you ask who's Berto fought...who has he fought? He had a lackluster performance against Urango and had a great fight with Collazo, which some of the other welterweights mentioned has beaten also. He's only 25. He'll get his chances. I think he's a level on his own above guys like Judah, Quintana, and Collazo. Just not on those guys' level just yet. It's still incredibly early and it's a very deep division.

drobe86
06-17-2009, 07:22 PM
very well said..... Mayweather is extremely talented but will only take fights he Knows he can win. Margarito isn't any good either. People hype him up because he beat Cotto. But Paul Williams made Margarito look amateur. He's got good reach at 5'11 for a welterweight, and a nice stalking style but nothing more nothing less. Last but not least people sleep on collazo

Mwizards23
06-18-2009, 12:35 AM
I like Berto because one he is a great fighter and he and Gene Pascal give many Haitian fans like me happiness that we have top fighters him and pascal are overlooked but berto is great williams is a feared guy which sucks cause when you dont get offers to fight you arent really going to break in the business and e the top like margarito and cotto.And stop hating on mayweather i mean damn no one likes to give him his props

Mwizards23
06-18-2009, 12:39 AM
very well said..... Mayweather is extremely talented but will only take fights he Knows he can win. Margarito isn't any good either. People hype him up because he beat Cotto. But Paul Williams made Margarito look amateur. He's got good reach at 5'11 for a welterweight, and a nice stalking style but nothing more nothing less. Last but not least people sleep on collazo

ok thats wrong cause pacman has done the same thing and so has Mosley many fighters do that to preseve their place at the top so singling out mayweather is really not true.but what mayweather does is win Shamba mitchell and Chico corrales and Odh and Hatton and jmm you mean to say they aren't top fighters come on.he fights and wins but seems to get no respect

Mwizards23
06-18-2009, 12:42 AM
whats worng with boxing is no one gets their respect.CLottey who i wanted to win hasnt finished the fights like he should thats why he lost.Cotto can fight because someone beats him all od sudden he isnt that good.margarito is overhyped man someone needs to stop the bs if he wins he wins point blank

H.E.R.
06-18-2009, 02:30 AM
ok thats wrong cause pacman has done the same thing and so has Mosley many fighters do that to preseve their place at the top so singling out mayweather is really not true.but what mayweather does is win Shamba mitchell and Chico corrales and Odh and Hatton and jmm you mean to say they aren't top fighters come on.he fights and wins but seems to get no respect

Coralles was 8 years ago, when he was looking for challenges. Sharmba Mitchell was anything, but an elite welterweight. Mayweather only had to move up one weight class to fight DLH and was at welterweight for 2 years. He also had Hatton move up a weight class in which he clearly got hurt and had a questionable decision to Collazo. That was his only previous fight at welterweight. After over a year of retirement and years after several boxers kept calling him out, he answered the challenge of the lightweight champion and had Marquez move up a weight class and a half when he showed several weaknesses against Casamayor and Juan Diaz.

There is no debate that the welterweights he hasn't faced are better than the ones he has faced. And he wants to call himself the greatest of all time?

Pacquiao gets more positive publicity for beating DLH and Hatton because he's not even a natural junior welterweight, but he's looked amazing at both junior welterweight and welterweight. At the very least, Pacquiao's fought at the welterweight class. Marquez hasn't gone passed 135 and somehow he gets to fight Mayweather after getting a draw and a loss. Pacquiao by fighting one of the top welterweights is at least challenging someone Mayweather won't. Mosley's also fought and demolished Margarito. Mosley also has a great point that the guys he's lost to that Mayweather hasn't fought any of them. Mayweather was offered $8 million to fight Margarito when he was under Top Rank back in 2006, but instead bought himself out of his contract. Mayweather said Mosley's always ducked him when the truth is he's been calling him out since 2007 and instead retired. During that retirement, he was offered a huge amount of guaranteed money for a De La Hoya rematch and refused. He also shown no interest in fighting Cotto and Paul Williams.

No one's saying he can't beat those guys. No one's saying he can either until he proves it.

2009mvp
06-18-2009, 02:47 PM
I like Berto because one he is a great fighter and he and Gene Pascal give many Haitian fans like me happiness that we have top fighters him and pascal are overlooked but berto is great williams is a feared guy which sucks cause when you dont get offers to fight you arent really going to break in the business and e the top like margarito and cotto.And stop hating on mayweather i mean damn no one likes to give him his props

Diaconu's gonna knock him out tomorrow night ;) Wish I could have gotten up there I can only imagine the atmosphere in Montreal for that one.

Mwizards23
06-18-2009, 03:54 PM
Coralles was 8 years ago, when he was looking for challenges. Sharmba Mitchell was anything, but an elite welterweight. Mayweather only had to move up one weight class to fight DLH and was at welterweight for 2 years. He also had Hatton move up a weight class in which he clearly got hurt and had a questionable decision to Collazo. That was his only previous fight at welterweight. After over a year of retirement and years after several boxers kept calling him out, he answered the challenge of the lightweight champion and had Marquez move up a weight class and a half when he showed several weaknesses against Casamayor and Juan Diaz.

There is no debate that the welterweights he hasn't faced are better than the ones he has faced. And he wants to call himself the greatest of all time?

Pacquiao gets more positive publicity for beating DLH and Hatton because he's not even a natural junior welterweight, but he's looked amazing at both junior welterweight and welterweight. At the very least, Pacquiao's fought at the welterweight class. Marquez hasn't gone passed 135 and somehow he gets to fight Mayweather after getting a draw and a loss. Pacquiao by fighting one of the top welterweights is at least challenging someone Mayweather won't. Mosley's also fought and demolished Margarito. Mosley also has a great point that the guys he's lost to that Mayweather hasn't fought any of them. Mayweather was offered $8 million to fight Margarito when he was under Top Rank back in 2006, but instead bought himself out of his contract. Mayweather said Mosley's always ducked him when the truth is he's been calling him out since 2007 and instead retired. During that retirement, he was offered a huge amount of guaranteed money for a De La Hoya rematch and refused. He also shown no interest in fighting Cotto and Paul Williams.

No one's saying he can't beat those guys. No one's saying he can either until he proves it.

so whatMany fighters duck fights Mayweather does but he wins point blank if he lost he lost but when he wins thats it jmm is a worthy competitor the days of Roy jones and lewis and ali people who will fight anyone has long gone fighters choose all the time but mayweather is a top fighter he has shown it.when ytou win and win that's all you do then you gotta be good.i got what ya saying but boxing isnt equal like it was peole shifting weights and losing and havin some story like i went to far wasnt natural it has to stop

drobe86
06-18-2009, 03:57 PM
ok thats wrong cause pacman has done the same thing and so has Mosley many fighters do that to preseve their place at the top so singling out mayweather is really not true.but what mayweather does is win Shamba mitchell and Chico corrales and Odh and Hatton and jmm you mean to say they aren't top fighters come on.he fights and wins but seems to get no respect


Ok thats where you are wrong. The Pacman started at 106 ibs. He has fought his way to the top ducking NO ONE. Mayweather on the other hand while extremely talented, hand picks his say all the way to the top. Beating a washed up Zab Judah, way out of his prime Oscar De La Hoya, etc.. Hatton is probably Mayweathers best fight, and did you see what the Pacman did to him? Shane Mosley same thing. But why are we even talking about Shane Mosley he got beat senseless by Vernon Forrest for christ sake. Juan Manuel Marquez is good but he isn't even a natural welterweight when Mayweather is. Instead of Mayweather waiting to after the Pacqiaou fight he decides on a 130 ib, fighter instead of someone his own size. Mayweather will destroy Marquez and he knows it, that's why he hand picked him. Look at pacmans last 5 fights and look at Mayweathers. Mayweather either fought washed up fighters that WERE great, or school teachers, and grey hound bus drivers. Also look at common opponents for Mayweather and Pac. what it took Mayweather all fight to do, it seemingly took Pacman 2 rounds. De La Hoya gave Floyd problems, De la Hoya QUIT vs. Pacman.
As for Margarito yeah he beat Cotto senseless but who doesn't? people hype up Cotto about having so much heart and being this and that. The man got on his KNEES cause he didn't want anymore. Last but not least, if Margarito is so good why did Paul Williams pitch a shutout against him? Margarito got beat to sleep and quit too. You gotta watch the fights before you talk to me cause I've just about seen them all. I can see a fraud coming from a mile away, and if Mayweather ever gets the balls to fight a TRUE welterweight IN HIS PRIME, Money Mayweather will lose and I'll be telling you all I told you so.

Mwizards23
06-18-2009, 04:07 PM
zab judah was never washed up he lost many of his fihgts but not cause he was washed up.and the odh fight i can sit here and say that pacman fought him later on when he was old but im not cause he won no matter what.this what people dont get one one will always be better Paul Williams is a beast and many people knew it was soon time for margarito to lose i have seen them as well but dont sit and say that mayweather cant get a a true respect cause he doesn't do what other do.hatton fought maywether earlier then when he fought pacman does it mean he go old no he lost point blank when someone accepts a fight there is no excuses.why hasn't pacman taken the mosley fight that has been asked for by Mosley.Cotto is a great fighter he knew he lost maybe he just wanted to live and fight another day a great fighter also finished but they also know when to hang em up

Mwizards23
06-18-2009, 04:10 PM
mayn peole said hatton was going to win against both pacman and mayweather they both one pac man works quicker mayweather is more defensive.they both won still.so whats gonna happen IF pacman loses against cotto what they going to say

drobe86
06-18-2009, 04:15 PM
The Pacman- Mosley fight won't happen simply because Mosley fights from 147-154. Pacman fights at 140. He cannot go any higher, seeing that he came up from 106 I don't know if his body will continue to allow him to higher. Thats why the fight won't happen. If Mosley really wanted a shot at the Pac Man then he would come down to 140. You think he was thrilled to hear that? No cause he knows he cannot make weight. As for Cotto people use that Margarito had loaded hands as an excuse. THE GUY GOT BEAT TO SLEEP. Nothing more nothing less. He looked like a wounded dog with his tail between his legs running, until he finally quit. What's great about that?? Cotto may as well retire cause the judges won't give him the Pac man fight like they did Clottey, and seriously when will he stop running? and lol. Zab Judah is awful and has been for a few years now. The welterweight division has taken turns beating him into a pulp. He needs to retire.......

drobe86
06-18-2009, 04:18 PM
mayn peole said hatton was going to win against both pacman and mayweather they both one pac man works quicker mayweather is more defensive.they both won still.so whats gonna happen IF pacman loses against cotto what they going to say


Who said Hatton would beat Pacman and Mayweather? Are you serious? How was he going to beat two boxers with his BS bull dog style with no defense? If you don't have a great defense you must at least be quick and move around with natural reflexes (a la berto). Hatton was a standing target both fights and thats why he ended up on the canvas.

Mwizards23
06-18-2009, 04:18 PM
exactly eeryone beat judah so why circle the fight as mayweather being washed up.Mosley knows he can win mosley has fought big and small he will take it one

H.E.R.
06-19-2009, 10:13 AM
zab judah was never washed up he lost many of his fihgts but not cause he was washed up.

He was a good welterweight, not a great one. That's as far as I'll go.


and the odh fight i can sit here and say that pacman fought him later on when he was old but im not cause he won no matter what.

I addressed this earlier. Pacquiao had to move up two weight classes and defeated him in convincing fashion.


hatton fought maywether earlier then when he fought pacman does it mean he go old no he lost point blank when someone accepts a fight there is no excuses.

I also addressed this earlier. Hatton prior to Mayweather had one fight at 147 and got hurt bad against Collazo. Mayweather, who could've made weight 140 where Hatton was undefeated, wanted Hatton to move up to 147. Pacquiao, not even a true junior welterweight, defeated Hatton in his own weight class.


why hasn't pacman taken the mosley fight that has been asked for by Mosley.Cotto is a great fighter he knew he lost maybe he just wanted to live and fight another day a great fighter also finished but they also know when to hang em up

Mosley has asked for a fight and said he was willing to go down to a catchweight. Pacquiao doesn't make the fights though. Arum does. Cotto is also under Top Rank where Mosley is with Golden Boy so it's much easier to make a fight happen. Mosley, out of the active welterweights, poses the most danger so it's perfectly fine that Arum and Roach don't let Pacquiao, who isn't even a true junior welterweight, fight Mosley right away. Cotto has also defeated Mosley so that didn't get passed their minds. Remember, this isn't to say a Pacquiao-Mosley fight won't happen.

On Mayweather's side, Mosley's been calling Mayweather out since 2007, at the end of the De La Hoya fight. Mayweather went to fight Hatton, which is alright considering the draw Hatton was. After that, why the hell did he retire? So the division beats each other up? Since Mayweather retired, Kermit Cintron and Paul Williams have moved up in weight, Mosley has beaten Margarito, and Cotto has beaten Clottey (on the scorecards). Then when he comes back, he decides to fight a guy that although a great fighter, is a lightweight and makes him fight at welterweight? Not to mention that Marquez lost to Pacquiao (twice if you include the judge's scoring error in the first fight). And Mayweather wants to call himself the greatest of all time and putting himself in a category above Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Muhammad Ali, and Joe Louis?

drobe86
06-19-2009, 03:20 PM
You made some very fine and valid points. Mayweather retires because he supposedly was the greatest and had nothing else to prove, then he comes back to regain what was his. Instead of doing it against a true welterweight (meaning someone his own size) he fights a 130 ib lightweight in JMM. Thats comical and I question Mayweather's heart and desire. It seems to be all about the money. He should and will probably beat Marquez convincingly but really what will that prove?? Nothing.....

Mwizards23
06-19-2009, 11:08 PM
Diaconu's gonna knock him out tomorrow night ;) Wish I could have gotten up there I can only imagine the atmosphere in Montreal for that one.

What happen my boi and fellow Haitian won the fight and scored a knockout so can my boi Pascal get some respect

2009mvp
06-20-2009, 02:59 AM
^^Oh I'm thoroughly impressed. Diaconu's relentless, he really crawled back into the fight after the knockdown in the fifth but Pascal was able to pick his spots and keep him at bay. Excellent fight and an excellent crowd in Montreal. Interesting to see where Pascal goes after this, maybe he fights Froch, maybe he fights Bute, maybe a rematch for Diaconu, but you have to think down the line he's got his eye on Chad Dawson.

Mwizards23
06-20-2009, 04:31 AM
^^Oh I'm thoroughly impressed. Diaconu's relentless, he really crawled back into the fight after the knockdown in the fifth but Pascal was able to pick his spots and keep him at bay. Excellent fight and an excellent crowd in Montreal. Interesting to see where Pascal goes after this, maybe he fights Froch, maybe he fights Bute, maybe a rematch for Diaconu, but you have to think down the line he's got his eye on Chad Dawson.

well come on you got to admit he is good

Mwizards23
06-20-2009, 04:32 AM
and i hope they get a rematch

TheRedMarauder
06-23-2009, 02:25 PM
I know this is going to ruffle a few feathers. But Andre Berto and Paul Williams are the top two fighters in boxing. People hype up Manny, Cotto, Mayweather, Mosley. Those are the fighters that have the top promoters and are all about money and reputation. No one will even fight these guys. Screw the money Paul Williams is slaughtering any of the guys I mentioned before with the 6'3 frame. I would like to know what you guys think about these 2 guys.

Yet you fail to mention that Paul Williams also has one very bad loss against Carlos Quintanas. That's a worse loss than any of those guys you mentioned. That said, I think he's in the top 5 p4p fighters right now, but not above those guys.

And while Berto looks good I still think he's very green to be going in the ring with those guys.

drobe86
06-23-2009, 02:38 PM
Did you see the rematch? Uhhh didn't think so... He beat that guy like he stole sumthin

2009mvp
06-23-2009, 05:19 PM
Yeah, the knock was he was struggling with slick-boxing southpaws. He did completely put that to rest in the rematch and the fight with Winky.

Mwizards23
06-24-2009, 05:08 PM
paul williams match with winky was not tht impressive since wink has been on the decline and he hasnt been the same good win thou