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View Full Version : GAME 4 isnt Jameer's/Magic's Fault.



DJ CHACH
06-16-2009, 01:11 AM
here is the play again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dEQ_xYDBOg&feature=related
(go to the 4:20 mark)


i know lotta ppl are taking hits at jameer and the magic for not fouling but hear this out. The play happened in such a bang bang fashion that it wouldve ended up with fisher shooting a three either way. Let's start from after the two missed freethrows. The inbounds came to kobe, who immediately fired it back to ariza, who hit fisher who brought the ball up, was well behind the 3pt line, 2 dribbles and a contested shot that was all CASH...But let me break it down, After the inbounds came to kobe, the magic all rushed him like they were gonna foul him(really they were NOT gonna foul but they hoped kobe would waste time waiting for them to foul him--this plan failed..but ppl argue that they shouldve fouled kobe but in reality that wouldve only been good for teh lakers to stop the clock and take points off the board adn put hedo who was missing ft's right and left that game, on the line to go up 3 again--doesnt make sense for them to foul kobe in the back court bc why not let them waste time bringing up to the frontcourt and then foul? so good job by magic not fouling kobe back there)..

then kobe gave it back to ariza, who was wide open and eventually found fisher on the opposite side. So, no fouls couldve happened anywhere over there because by the time jameer couldve fouled ariza, the ball was already outta his hands so jameer backtracked to get in front of fisher. NOW THIS IS WHERE PPL GO WRONG.. ppl say that he shouldve fouled fisher and not let him shoot a three...HOWEVER, fisher was waiting for jameer to charge in for the foul and then lift up for potentially a 4 point play or at the very least, 3 ft's. How do i kno fisher was thinking this?loook at the video(4:31 mark), he stared right at jameer nelson waiting for him to come and foul, and when jameer decided to just wait and contest a farther than normal three, fisher rose up and made a still difficult and well contested shot. Jameer knows fisher was gonna hoist the three up regardless bc if he decided to drive, dwight was waiting right underneath(pause it at the 4:28 mark and look where howard is) so in fishers head, shud he go at dwight or shud he shoot over a rusty nelson? He made the right choice...On the other side, jameer is thinkin that even if i try to foul him, he'll get his 3 point shot up and itll be ft's anyways so why not let him take a farther than usual three with a contested defender.

if im jameer, i like my chances of trying to contest a farther three and hope that it doesnt go in, than to charge into fisher who gave himself enuf space to react to a potential foul and have enuf reaction time to hoist up a 3 and maybe get to the line. The way the refs are at teh end, they would probably give the continuation call and it would be 3ft's for a 90% ft shooter...Think about how much more of an idiot ppl would thought of him, if he fouled fisher on a 3 and fisher hit all 3 ft's? even jeff van gundy who said why let him shoot it, would be saying "WHY FOUL..MAKE HIM HIT A CONTESTED LONGER THREE AND LIVE WITH THE ODDS THAT IT WONT GO IN." everyone is quick to blame but jameer wouldve gotten more hate if he fouled fisher on a 3 than making him take a long shot and throw up a contested prayer..ppl wouldve been like "how could u b so stupid? just put a hand up, if he makes it, he makes it BUT DONT FOUL ON THE SHOT!!"

at the point jameer was at, it wouldve been silly to try and foul fisher bc of the space fisher gave himself to react and shoot. ANd to all those who think that he couldve faked like he was gonna foul him (ehem, JAKE), this is the nba, these guys arent gonna go up half *** for a shot bc they think they are gonna get fouled. if fisher had teh chance for a 4 point play rather than just 3 ft's WHAT WOULD U DO(obviously u would try and hit your shot and focus on hitting it regardless of teh "potential" foul.) this is the nba, once these players go up, unless u block the shot, its as if u arent even there. THe most jameer couldve done was contest and he did...

so for all who blame the magic and jameer, let me just say this.
1st u guys think they shoudlve foueld kobe int he backcourt and none of this wouldve happened WHICH IS FALSE BECAUSE THAT STOPS THE CLOCK ADN PLAYS RIGHT INTO WHAT THE LAKERS WANT OF TAKING POINTS OFF THE BOARD AND STOPPING TIME. HEDO MISSED LIKE 6 FT'S ALREADY, AND HE'S THE SUPPOSED GO-TO..

2ND ppl think that he shoudlve fouled fisher and not let him shoot it, but how many times this season did ppl get the continuation, even if it was at half court..fisher was gonna shoot the 3 either way bc he sure as hell wasnt gonna drive at howard...but do u let fisher shoot the far three and contest, or do u go in and try to foul when fisher knows it(he directly stared and waited for the foul to come) and hoists up a 3 and gets the continuation call? ppl wouldve been more mad about a continuation call than a tough shot..

either way ppl just like to blame, but the real basketball fans know that it was just a great shot by fisher, great reaction by the lakers, and good intentions all around by the magic on trying to dupe the lakers into wasting their own time (by pretending to foul in the backcourt and in the front court).. the magic did wat they intended to do, make the lakers earn it wihtout the refs involved and waste more time than just fouling in the backcourt..im sure if fisher wasnt so far away from nelson, that nelson wouldve tried to foul him b4 he shoots, but that wasnt the case, and u gotta tip ur hat to d.fish for being the next robert horry(flopping included)

critics live for these moments but ask yourselves something.
1) do u foul kobe in the backcourt, let him make 2 ft's and then put pressure on urself to hit freethrows when the whole team is collectively just missing ft's....OR make them advance the ball up the court, take a contested shot to stay in it, all within 10 secs and the shot would be contested?..

2) do u attempt to foul fisher KNOWING HE IS GONNA SHOOT THE 3 REGARDLESS? im only assuming fisher doesnt hit the 3 and gets the foul, BUT WHAT IF HE HIT THE 3 with possible 4 point play, IM SURE EVERYONE HERE WOULD BE YELLING AT JAMEER THAT HE SHOULDNT HAVE FOULED CUZ FISHER CAN HIT 3's & FT'S, AND WHY NOT JUST GET A HAND UP AND FORCE HIM TO MAKE A TOUGH SHOT THAT IS A FARTHER THAN NORMAL 3.

in jameers head he is thinking---if i try and foul him this late in the game, he'll for sure rise up and try to make me foul him and who knows maybe he'll hit the 3 and potential 4 point play, maybe ill just contest his shot as best as i could and make him hit it

in fishers head he is thinking--if i wait, im sure he'll try and foul me, so let me stay w enuf distance that if he tries to, i can get off my shot and at least get 3 ft's or maybe a 4 point play...oh wait, he's gonna make me shoot it, oh well here goes nothing..BANG....

the both had the same thing running in their minds and tried to outsmart eachother. they both got what they wanted (fisher got his shot bc he knew jameers plan) and jameer got what he wanted, (he wanted fisher to think he was gonna foul him but really he'd rather make fisher take a contested shot)

great shot by fisher, but the dual was evenly matched..two knowledgeable players, playing the game mentally and having nothing but respect for eachother...this still aint the 90's but there was alot that went on in the last couple of seconds in that game that most fans dont even acknowledge..

madiaz3
06-16-2009, 01:42 AM
This is post is so long I'll just take your word for it.

sixer04fan
06-16-2009, 01:44 AM
Holy crap, is this a message board post or your grad school thesis?


I agree though, you can't blame Jameer as much as it just was a well executed play and great shot by Fisher. The play went by so fast and stretched the defense so much that I think Fisher was getting that shot off whether Jameer decided to foul or not.

RocketsRule
06-16-2009, 01:45 AM
This is post is so long I'll just take your word for it.

:laugh:

I read through most of it and while you may be right, if Hedo or Dwight make a free throw the game is over. Simple as that.

MPScribbles
06-16-2009, 01:48 AM
Bro no one is going to read your thesis paper on that game in order to post in this forum. I read the first two paragraphs and watched most of the video and I must say, you're wrong. Nelson is a dog in this game almost as bad as Howard. Dwight needs to make those free throws and if not then Nelson needs to get up on Fisher and try to make him drive, which obviously wasn't going to happen. Howard & Nelson = Fail.

jiggajay23
06-16-2009, 01:48 AM
it was a total fail on jameers part he shouldve fouled fisher before he went up for the shot instead of just backtracking on defense or played up on him so that he would be forced to take a difficult three or forced to drive to the hoop...even van gundy said the play was a failure that is gonna haunt him forever...bad move

DJ CHACH
06-16-2009, 01:51 AM
Bro no one is going to read your thesis paper on that game in order to post in this forum. I read the first two paragraphs and watched most of the video and I must say, you're wrong. Nelson is a dog in this game almost as bad as Howard. Dwight needs to make those free throws and if not then Nelson needs to get up on Fisher and try to make him drive, which obviously wasn't going to happen. Howard & Nelson = Fail.

so ur telling me that if u were fisher, u would drive on howard rather than shoot over a rusty nelson? did i mention there are 7 secs left for u to either drive or shoot? driving is a lost cause cuz it wastes more time..shud i keep writing?

koreancabbage
06-16-2009, 09:21 AM
so ur telling me that if u were fisher, u would drive on howard rather than shoot over a rusty nelson? did i mention there are 7 secs left for u to either drive or shoot? driving is a lost cause cuz it wastes more time..shud i keep writing?

Fisher would've made/attempted that 3 regardless. Whether it be a straight up shot (with no contest, like what happened), a step back 3, a pump and get the defender in the air, hoping for a foul- 3.

down by three, it didn't matter who guarded him, that 3 point attempt was coming regardless lol. Only fault, Nelson wasn't above the 3 point line- his fault and his mistake alone. What do you think Fisher was going to do? ROFL everyone saw that coming but Nelson.

king4day
06-16-2009, 09:26 AM
I didn't bother read beyond the first few lines.
Yes there is a difference. If nelson is riding fisher up the court, then he likely tries going around and at the least, lays it up, forcing the Lakers to foul with under 4 seconds on the clock.
Otherwise, he has to take a miracle 3 with a hand in his face and probably misses it.

nouveauAG
06-16-2009, 09:47 AM
I don't blame Jameer. I blame the coach, mainly for the defense called. Personally, I would not pressure up court and double team Kobe on the first inbound pass. I would not have two players defending the paint knowing the Lakers needed a three. I would have everyone back guarding the three point line to force a long three or a better contested three. Also I would place C. Lee in the game who is a better defender than Nelson.

Chronz
06-16-2009, 11:16 AM
Its definitely not on Jameer, its all on SVG. Why full court press? Why not halfcourt press that way you can defend the 3 without having to scramble the length of the court after a failed trap. Secondly why is Jameer even in the game, you have to treat this as a last possession situation, meaning you get your specialized players in the game. JVG did this all the time with Yao, I was extremely shocked his brother left him in the game.

I had an eerie feeling, that one mistake would bite them hard, you know that feeling you get when your team is destined to fail, being a Clippers fan I know it all too well, and I know when my team is getting screwed over by the coach. I got that feeling the instant I saw Jameer was still in the game.

DJ CHACH
06-16-2009, 11:30 AM
Fisher would've made/attempted that 3 regardless. Whether it be a straight up shot (with no contest, like what happened), a step back 3, a pump and get the defender in the air, hoping for a foul- 3.

down by three, it didn't matter who guarded him, that 3 point attempt was coming regardless lol. Only fault, Nelson wasn't above the 3 point line- his fault and his mistake alone. What do you think Fisher was going to do? ROFL everyone saw that coming but Nelson.

first off, he did contest the shots as best he could...jameer dared fisher to shoot it from farther than the 3 and fisher, being the high rise jumpshot shooter, was easily able to get a good luck, but jameer still contested it...we are talking about the nba and u know very well the chances of fisher drawing a foul somehow...if u wanna tell me its jameers fault bc he left him wide open, then ill agree...but he wasnt wide open, fisher was just smart enuf to give himself space to react to jameers D or potential foul..I agree with u he was shooting the three, but all ppl keep saying is that "he shouldve fouled him"--i dont agree w that

Chronz
06-16-2009, 11:32 AM
first off, he did contest the shots as best he could...jameer dared fisher to shoot it from farther than the 3 and fisher, being the high rise jumpshot shooter, was easily able to get a good luck, but jameer still contested it...we are talking about the nba and u know very well the chances of fisher drawing a foul somehow...if u wanna tell me its jameers fault bc he left him wide open, then ill agree...but he wasnt wide open, fisher was just smart enuf to give himself space to react to jameers D or potential foul..I agree with u he was shooting the three, but all ppl keep saying is that "he shouldve fouled him"--i dont agree w that

Yea I agree with that, ManRam was saying that Jameer just didnt contest, but really that is Jameer contesting. Thats him protecting the 3, its not like he completely forgot that they couldnt give up a 3, thats just the best he can do with his little short arms and non-pressing ability. Fisher did take the 3 a step further, it was a great counter, but he wouldnt have been able to do that if Lee or Rafer were on him instead.

MPScribbles
06-16-2009, 12:38 PM
so ur telling me that if u were fisher, u would drive on howard rather than shoot over a rusty nelson? did i mention there are 7 secs left for u to either drive or shoot? driving is a lost cause cuz it wastes more time..shud i keep writing?

No, in fact that is the opposite of what I am saying. That is why Jameer should have been in his jersey. When Fisher took that shot Nelson was like 5 ft away! What I said was-Nelson needs to get up on Fisher and try to make him drive, which obviously wasn't going to happen.
Fisher didn't want anything to do with a drive to the paint with Howard down there. That is why Nelson needs to get up on him and try to force the drive. Maybe Fisher still throws up a 3 but it will be a much better defended 3.

ggg
06-16-2009, 12:39 PM
I didnt read th e whole post but i agree that it wasnt the magics fault, it was just a great shot.

Their plan was to deny kobe and the only way to do that is to use full court defense. They feared that once kobe got the ball,a.) its going to be difficult to foul him since he can anticipate those foul attempts and b.) the great closer that he is, he might make a shot. Other than him, who was draining threes with a man infront of his face? none.

It was a great shot by fish who STRUGGLED all playoff long and by the time the ball reached mid court, the plan was designed for fisher to bring it up. Fisher saw an opportunity, he just made it.

The only kinda bad decision is when SVG didnt play raefer whos obviously longer and a better defender than jameer. but you can also argue that svg went to jameer because of his speed to get back.

DJ CHACH
06-16-2009, 12:55 PM
No, in fact that is the opposite of what I am saying. That is why Jameer should have been in his jersey. When Fisher took that shot Nelson was like 5 ft away! What I said was-Nelson needs to get up on Fisher and try to make him drive, which obviously wasn't going to happen.
Fisher didn't want anything to do with a drive to the paint with Howard down there. That is why Nelson needs to get up on him and try to force the drive. Maybe Fisher still throws up a 3 but it will be a much better defended 3.

ait, i feel u..i agree, im just saying that the way fisher was shooting the whole series and playoffs, he wouldve rather entice him into shooting a far 3, then potentially end up having fisher and the refs team up and call a foul on the shot...and u cant blame jameer for having an oompa loompa like build..its not his fault that his arms cant reach higher..

DJ CHACH
06-16-2009, 12:57 PM
I didn't bother read beyond the first few lines.
Yes there is a difference. If nelson is riding fisher up the court, then he likely tries going around and at the least, lays it up, forcing the Lakers to foul with under 4 seconds on the clock.
Otherwise, he has to take a miracle 3 with a hand in his face and probably misses it.

well, everything u are arguing was adressed in the rest of the post, so maybe u should read it...i didnt mean for it to be so long, but every argument anyone has, is all in there...

RapssRULzzz16
06-16-2009, 12:59 PM
This is post is so long I'll just take your word for it.

LOL. same here. I scrolled down and when I saw how big it was, i took his word for it.

DJ CHACH
06-16-2009, 01:02 PM
LOL. same here. I scrolled down and when I saw how big it was, i took his word for it.

or ur just lookin to up the number of posts u have..if u dont care to read, y would u spend time posting? this is for real nba fans who understand the game, and if u want to up ur posts, the baseball section has the most pointless threads, im sure u can get to 100 posts by 2 oclock today

Patriots
06-16-2009, 01:13 PM
Fisher was smart to shoot the 3 IMO...

MPScribbles
06-16-2009, 01:13 PM
or ur just lookin to up the number of posts u have..if u dont care to read, y would u spend time posting? this is for real nba fans who understand the game, and if u want to up ur posts, the baseball section has the most pointless threads, im sure u can get to 100 posts by 2 oclock today

LOL. Seriously, way to bust him on padding his numbers to get his sig on. Honestly I don't understand why guys post in a thread just to say that they don't like the thread. If you don't like the thread, stay the hell out!

In the end, as others have stated, Nelson should have been on the bench. No one under 6'5" should have been on the court at that point. LOL at oompa loompa build. Although, Nelson was on the court so he could have played that better, IMO. It was a stone cold killer of a shot and you gotta respect Fisher for hitting it.

Kyle N.
06-16-2009, 03:45 PM
Yeah, now that I watch it again, it was just a good shot by Fisher. Not much you can do in that situation. Sure you could foul but I would rather have him make that shot than foul.

Chronz
06-16-2009, 04:06 PM
No, in fact that is the opposite of what I am saying. That is why Jameer should have been in his jersey. When Fisher took that shot Nelson was like 5 ft away! What I said was-Nelson needs to get up on Fisher and try to make him drive, which obviously wasn't going to happen.
Fisher didn't want anything to do with a drive to the paint with Howard down there. That is why Nelson needs to get up on him and try to force the drive. Maybe Fisher still throws up a 3 but it will be a much better defended 3.

Your asking for him to recover the length of the court off a trap on Kobe and get up in the guys grill? Do you know what kind of player excels at doing that? A great pressure defender, with smart team-defensive instincts. Someone like Rafer did that with great regularity in Houston. He just needs to get on the floor.

Asked Magic fans if SVG had ever used Jameer in that FullCourt Press role, but Im guessing from the non-response that its either a no or a yes but he wasnt any good at it, so really you cant blame Jameer for doing something hes just not good at doing. Instead fault the coach for not knowing his players limitations and adjusting his lineup accordingly.

Players cant just recover against a player that is dribbling the way you want because the ball handler has all the momentum the odds of you getting too close and making body contact is too high, and at that point the ballhandler has you at his mercy. In retrospect yes it wouldve been better had Jameer just body tackled Fish, but what does it say about your coaching, when the best defensive option of the player you put on the floor is to foul because he cant defend that play without fouling. Rafer or Lee wouldve been better choices, Rafer I imagine wouldve been the best from my experience.