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Brave4life
06-14-2009, 04:32 PM
the team needs to go in a rebuilding mode. lets face it we are not a playoff team. lets get some energy in this club. bobby cox cant handle this team anymore. TP is a horrible hitting coach frenchy doesn't even go to him for help he goes to the rangers hitting coach. thoughts and comments

rtgthree
06-14-2009, 04:40 PM
This post screams: "I'm emotional after a tough loss and I'm just so frustrated that I want to take it out by making sweeping and totally irrational personnel changes."

First, the team needs no rebuilding. Even in the event that the front office concedes the season, there's more than enough talent for an even better team in 2010...we don't have to wait two to three years for a full rebuilding process.

Second, it's far too early to know if the Braves are a playoff team. They are still at .500 right now, and there are still six full weeks until the trade deadline. Plenty of time to get hot (or cold). The playoff picture will be far clearer in a month.

Third, Bobby Cox is still the best clubhouse manager in MLB history. He keeps his players happy and feeling respected, and that's important. He should be kept around ESPECIALLY if the team is rebuilding, since in a rebuilding phase wins don't matter and we might as well avoid the bad PR by letting Bobby go out on his own terms. Either way, he's not going to be fired. Period, end of matter.

Fourth, you have no evidence that Pendleton is a horrible hitting coach. So Frenchy goes to Rudy Jaramillo for help...what a load of good THAT did. Frenchy is just beyond help.

There should be a rule forbidding thread creation during a game or within three hours of the end.

CrippledRam
06-14-2009, 05:02 PM
If there's any reason BC should go it should be his abysmal bullpen management. But that's been the same for years.

GoBraves
06-14-2009, 05:07 PM
I hate Frenchy so much that I'm at the point where I'm hoping he would have a freaky accident to the point where he doesn't waste a spot in our roster. I Hate this idiot so much, I cant even tell you how much. he doesn't even try to walk or do anything different. So predictable. Swing at the first pitch, swing at the second pitch, swing at the slider down and away for the strike out. Why isn't anyone taking this idiot of our team:mad:

rtgthree
06-14-2009, 05:17 PM
I hate Frenchy so much that I'm at the point where I'm hoping he would have a freaky accident to the point where he doesn't waste a spot in our roster.

It's one thing to hate a player. It's another thing entirely to wish harm upon him. I can't stand Francoeur either, but I can't stand for hoping he has a "freak accident," especially after freak accidents have claimed the careers of players like Juan Encarnacion and even the lives of guys like Nick Adenhart. That isn't something you hope for.


I Hate this idiot so much, I cant even tell you how much. he doesn't even try to walk or do anything different. So predictable. Swing at the first pitch, swing at the second pitch, swing at the slider down and away for the strike out. Why isn't anyone taking this idiot of our team:mad:

Dude, you answered your own question. No one's going to take him because he SUCKS. And it's FAR preferable to wait it out and try to find a trade partner who will take his salary off our hands than it is to just release him and still have to write him checks.

Braves_Fan_RSD
06-14-2009, 05:23 PM
Absolutely RIDICULOUS thread, probably the worst I have seen since joining this forum, I honestly don't think I can take any of your posts seriously anymore, sorry dude. And to the guy wishing harm on players because they are not preforming up to your level odf expectations you had better knock on some wood because karma can be a *****.

iesportsfan
06-14-2009, 05:29 PM
It may not be the right decision but the braves need a shakeup in the hitting department.It may be time for a new hitting coach,something needs to wake these bats up.You can blame Francouer, Johnson or injuries but this team as a whole is stinking it up at the plate.I with you on the firing of Pendleton but not Bobby Cox.

uncblue2332
06-14-2009, 05:39 PM
I agree with you Brave4Life I do believe its time to move on. Listen Bobby has been a great manager in the two stints he has had with the braves. His contract is up at the end of the year and his old-school managerial style is going out of the window. At this point in the bigs there must be stolen bases. Why has atlanta been a .500 or below club for the last 3 years?? No aggression on the basepaths. No one thought teams like the Rays or Phillies would get to the world series. They both used speed and had aggressive management. Also Bobby kills bullpen arms. His terrible overuse of players is ridiculous. He either uses his top guys too much and then they have elbow problems (moylan, sori) or they suck but he uses them anyway (boyer). At some point you have to say Bobby, we love what youve done for us but how about retirement or working somewhere else in the organization.

TP is one of the worst hitting coaches in the MLB and I have been asking for his firing for over a month now. Its no wonder braves players dont go to him for help when guys like Chipper and B-Mac say screw TP, Hey dad can you help me. Even Frenchy left TP to work with Jaramillo and after frenchy quit working with Jaramillo and more with TP his decent start turned to sh^t. That being said I think it is time to move in a different direction. I would even consider hiring Mr. Jones or Mr. McCann to be our hitting coach so they can show other players on the braves besides their sons how to hit.

wolfman2
06-14-2009, 05:50 PM
This post screams: "I'm emotional after a tough loss and I'm just so frustrated that I want to take it out by making sweeping and totally irrational personnel changes."

It may be looked as that, but for me at least I am looking at the year as a whole which isn't looking great so far. The team is 2 games under 500 right now, but our record against teams who right now are below 500 is 17-16. If you are not winning the give me games, then you are doing something wrong. It is a Hitting Coach to get someone to start hitting if they are in a slump. With the exception of April 7-11 and May 23-31, Kelly Johnson has been groing through a season long slump. This is the pros. That is unacceptable. What has TP been having him change in his approach to get back to hitting?

Second, it's far too early to know if the Braves are a playoff team. They are still at .500 right now, and there are still six full weeks until the trade deadline. Plenty of time to get hot (or cold). The playoff picture will be far clearer in a month.

The team is right around 500 now, but the schedule is about to make a turn for the worst, when we have to play the Yankees and Red Sox. Unless the team can get hot by then, we will most likely be under 500 in the double digits.

Third, Bobby Cox is still the best clubhouse manager in MLB history. He keeps his players happy and feeling respected, and that's important. He should be kept around ESPECIALLY if the team is rebuilding, since in a rebuilding phase wins don't matter and we might as well avoid the bad PR by letting Bobby go out on his own terms. Either way, he's not going to be fired. Period, end of matter.

This topic is like in tv or movies, the Dad that tries to be liked by his son and his son's friends by buying them beer. Being liked by your players is always a good thing. But, I'd much rather have a group of players that can win than a group of BFFs. The team's PR is bad as is, with the Glavine and Smoltz situations. And also with the way the slew of free agents treated the team in the off season.

There should be a rule forbidding thread creation during a game or within three hours of the end.

I say continue with threads like this. I don't want to wish harm on anyone like some. That is just wrong.

Coach100
06-14-2009, 05:52 PM
Here's the problem: Firing Bobby and TP pretty much garuantees a player mutiny in the ATL clubhouse. If BC gets rung by the front office (which won't happen) in a less than honorable way, the players will go nuts. For the Frenchy's and KJ's that have strugged under TP, there are the McCann's, Chipper's, and Esco's that have been great. Say what you want, Chipper's best hitting years have been with TP and young guys like Esco and BMac have become some of the best young hitters at their positions. Players who don't change (KJ, Frenchy, Schafer) are the ones who have been at fault.

If you want "serious" changes in terms of rebuilding how about you look at trading Javy, who could probably land a real good 3B prospect, or SP prospect, or 2B prospect plus some other pieces. He could even land a big bat for the middle of the line-up for the next few years to hold ATL over till their young guys are ready to take over. That would do more for rebuilding than ditching BC and TP. Plus the Braves have proven arms to take over the rotation spot.

I have never been a huge fan of Bobby's bullpen decisions. At times, I don't care for his man-crushes on players like Greg Norton. But players love Bobby because he is loyal. So it is a give-and-take. Bobby is what he is. He wins games, manages the vlub house, and is great with young players. McDowell and Tp both have more success stroeis than failures. So the coaching staff may have some weaknesses, but whose doesn't? It is still one of the best in the business.

Coach100
06-14-2009, 05:55 PM
And UNC, Chipper and BMac have always worke with the father's. But TP hasn't hindered them one bit. The only thing that hinders Frenchy is is thick skull.

I am a coach. And believe me, some people don't/won't/can't change. Frenchy fits that bill. TP could tell him the smartest thing ever, but if Frenchy can't apply it, it won't help. You line up all the hitting "failures" under TP and I will counter all of them with a success. Nature of the beast.

uncblue2332
06-14-2009, 06:01 PM
Here's the problem: Firing Bobby and TP pretty much garuantees a player mutiny in the ATL clubhouse. If BC gets rung by the front office (which won't happen) in a less than honorable way, the players will go nuts. For the Frenchy's and KJ's that have strugged under TP, there are the McCann's, Chipper's, and Esco's that have been great. Say what you want, Chipper's best hitting years have been with TP and young guys like Esco and BMac have become some of the best young hitters at their positions. Players who don't change (KJ, Frenchy, Schafer) are the ones who have been at fault.

If you want "serious" changes in terms of rebuilding how about you look at trading Javy, who could probably land a real good 3B prospect, or SP prospect, or 2B prospect plus some other pieces. He could even land a big bat for the middle of the line-up for the next few years to hold ATL over till their young guys are ready to take over. That would do more for rebuilding than ditching BC and TP. Plus the Braves have proven arms to take over the rotation spot.

I have never been a huge fan of Bobby's bullpen decisions. At times, I don't care for his man-crushes on players like Greg Norton. But players love Bobby because he is loyal. So it is a give-and-take. Bobby is what he is. He wins games, manages the vlub house, and is great with young players. McDowell and Tp both have more success stroeis than failures. So the coaching staff may have some weaknesses, but whose doesn't? It is still one of the best in the business.

Like I said B-Mac and Chipp dont work with TP they go to their dads for help and all TP does is watch them hit batting practice. As far as Yunel he was a career .295 hitter in the minors with a .368 OBP as well so TP didnt really even have to work with Yunel and Yunel has had the same swing since coming up and still swings at alot of stuff. He consistently sees the least amount of pitches every game. The difference between Yunel and Frenchy is that French swings for the fences and Yunel just gets contact to get on. TP obviously has to go. Also with Bobby having no contract by years end we can just let him go. We dont have to fire him we just lwt him go into retirement or say work somewhere else in the organization and we hire another manager. Of course players might be a little upset but the man has been putting off reirement for 2 years now and I think the players will understand if we let/make him retire and move in a different direction

rtgthree
06-14-2009, 06:17 PM
Its no wonder braves players dont go to him for help when guys like Chipper and B-Mac say screw TP, Hey dad can you help me.

Let's say we had the greatest hitting coach on the planet...who do you think Chipper and McCann would go to for help? They would STILL go to their fathers, because their dads know their hitting style better than anyone else and their dads know how to help them fix problems. So hiring a new hitting coach wouldn't stop Mac and Chip from going to their fathers. As I said in another thread, Tim Lincecum still goes to his dad for help, and no one uses that as evidence that Dave Righetti is a bad pitching coach.


Even Frenchy left TP to work with Jaramillo and after frenchy quit working with Jaramillo and more with TP his decent start turned to sh^t.

What "decent start" are you talking about? He got hit-lucky for a couple weeks at the start of the season...there was no change in his underlying skills. Still no patience, and all his power came from one game where he hit two triples. Jaramillo's "help" didn't do anything.


As far as Yunel he was a career .295 hitter in the minors with a .368 OBP as well so TP didnt really even have to work with Yunel

That is BS. There is a huge difference between a .295 minor-league hitter and a .295 major-league hitter. You have to get better to make that leap...it's not just like you can hit the same without improving. Look, I've got no special love for Pendleton, but what I can't stand is your ridiculous habit of attributing all the success to someone other than Pendleton and all the failure to Pendleton. That's not fair, and it's not logically sound. Your conclusion may not be bogus, but your evidence definitely is.


Also with Bobby having no contract by years end we can just let him go. We dont have to fire him we just lwt him go into retirement or say work somewhere else in the organization and we hire another manager. Of course players might be a little upset but the man has been putting off reirement for 2 years now and I think the players will understand if we let/make him retire and move in a different direction

Yeah, nice try. Bobby's gonna have to retire on his own, with no pressure from the team. If the players get wind that the Braves forced Cox out, they will go berserk. They love him, and they'll stand up for him. You won't want to get anywhere near that clubhouse if the Braves do to Cox what they've done to Smoltz and Glavine. Not saying it was wrong what was done to Smoltzie and Glav, but if that's done to Cox, the gloves come off (from the players' perspective anyway).

uncblue2332
06-14-2009, 06:28 PM
Let's say we had the greatest hitting coach on the planet...who do you think Chipper and McCann would go to for help? They would STILL go to their fathers, because their dads know their hitting style better than anyone else and their dads know how to help them fix problems. So hiring a new hitting coach wouldn't stop Mac and Chip from going to their fathers. As I said in another thread, Tim Lincecum still goes to his dad for help, and no one uses that as evidence that Dave Righetti is a bad pitching coach.



What "decent start" are you talking about? He got hit-lucky for a couple weeks at the start of the season...there was no change in his underlying skills. Still no patience, and all his power came from one game where he hit two triples. Jaramillo's "help" didn't do anything.



That is BS. There is a huge difference between a .295 minor-league hitter and a .295 major-league hitter. You have to get better to make that leap...it's not just like you can hit the same without improving. Look, I've got no special love for Pendleton, but what I can't stand is your ridiculous habit of attributing all the success to someone other than Pendleton and all the failure to Pendleton. That's not fair, and it's not logically sound. Your conclusion may not be bogus, but your evidence definitely is.



Yeah, nice try. Bobby's gonna have to retire on his own, with no pressure from the team. If the players get wind that the Braves forced Cox out, they will go berserk. They love him, and they'll stand up for him. You won't want to get anywhere near that clubhouse if the Braves do to Cox what they've done to Smoltz and Glavine. Not saying it was wrong what was done to Smoltzie and Glav, but if that's done to Cox, the gloves come off (from the players' perspective anyway).

1. Yes they would go to there fathers but I really think other players dont think TP is a great hitting coach when you see your team leaders not even trusting him. If we had a different coach they might work with him a little more and the players might trust him better.

2. So when Frenchy changes his swing and starts off well he is LUCKY, but when he goes back to his old swing working with TP he just sucks. That argument is ridiculous, French obviously changed some things and if we had Jaramillo I guarantee frenchy wouldnt be anywhere near what he is hitting now.

3. What I'm saying is TP hasnt changed Yunels approach at all and he has stayed a good contact hitter moving up. If we could get a good hitting coach to get Yunel to see more pitches he might become a great hitter, a guy like Jeter who can get 180-210 hits every year. He could evolve but with TP he cant.

4. You just did the same with Jaramillo who actually is a good coach saying frenchy got lucky. While you think my evidence is maybe a little off point it really isnt and TP has to go. While you disputed my points you still never said we should keep TP and I implied from your post you want him gone as well.

5. Like I said I dont want us to force a retirement but he isnt under contract after the season and he has put retirement off for 2 years now. Even if he didnt want to retire we have to hire a new manager, if he stil wants to work he can go to the FO. But we have no contractual binding and I really think Bobby will retire at seasons end.

AustinTheGreat
06-14-2009, 06:43 PM
To even say fire Cox is just screaming your stupidity. Even if you dont agree with Cox's managing as of late, there is no way the Braves would fire a Hall of Fame manager. Hes gonna leave on good terms and retire.

jmtapia
06-14-2009, 06:50 PM
I believe we need a change in direction aswell but Cox will leave when he wishes....when ever that is

autigers5777
06-14-2009, 07:34 PM
I would like to jump on the andruw jones band wagon

Iceman_24_05
06-14-2009, 08:39 PM
Sorry guys I agree with the origonal poster about Cox and TP needing to go. However I would NEVER wis an injury upon anyone!!!!!!! Cox has always been a questionable manager in my opinion. Before you say anything lets think about this throughout their run in the 90's and 2000's it is easy to win anywhere from 80-90 ever 100 and something games a year when your running out 3 cy young caliber starters as well as 2 quality back of the rotation starters. Pus having Teds bill fold to back what ever need you desire helped a lot we started declining when Ted sold his shares and was no longer the owner of the Braves. I think it becomes painfully obvious that he consistyently gets out managed in the post season. Now I know that you have to catch breaks as well as play well to win series but I think Cox's record is related more to the players he had then the quality of manager he is or was.

As for T.P. i think toilet descirbes it best. A great player who is having troubles coaching. I don't think he is able to relate to the younger players. Thus the reason they struggle. It is painfully obvious that he is not a good coach. When it takes 15 innings to score a third run because players are not approaching at bats the way they should you have to look at the hitting coach. When players arn't moving over runners. They are not approaching at bats the correct way. Now I know that is not all his fault and some blame has to be levied onto the players that arn't producing; However instead of sitting in your corner chewing on seeds why wouldn't you be talking to the players when they are in the hole giving them instruction helping them figure out what to look for and have more productive at bats. If i felt like players wern't respecting me ala Francoure I would rectify that by displaying leadership tring to help other players out and when they see that maybe they would take what you have to say a little more serious. I think T.P. was a great player just a piss poor hitting coach. Please think about everything I said before you attempt to rip me appart.

Coach100
06-14-2009, 09:05 PM
So let me get this straight:

Because players like Chipper and McCann go to their father's for hitting advise (which they have always done) other players do not respect and/or listen to TP.

Frenchy sucks because he listens to TP instead of someone else.

Aren't those 2 points completely contradicatory? IF players don't listen to TP, then he can't be the cause of Jeff's hitting woes. And if people do listen to him that has to include hitter's like McCann, Chipper, and Esco on some level.

And just because you don't see TP coaching dudes up doesn't mean he isn't. I don't see scoutig reports on pitchers, but I know they exist. People are acting like they are in the dugout and clubhouse and cages with these players/coaches.

And a hitting coach doesn't not execute. And it takes 2 teams to not score a 3rd run till the 15th to get to the 15th inning. Good pitching happens. So does bad execution. The Braves have 2 of the best hitters with RISP (Esco and Chip) in the NL. So how can you say they don't have productive ABs? And Braves pitchers (inculding under TP) have always been great at sacrifices. Yet another example of productive AB's.

These arguments are crazy. UNC, you are arguing counterpoints with yourself. Failures and successes should both be attributed to TP. If you have a conclusion (TP sucks) and then look for evidence, of course you will find it. Look at the whole picture, then make an assestment. Don't spout of some idea, then just throw something out to back it up. You discount numerous examples that counter your idea.

Iceman_24_05
06-14-2009, 09:29 PM
hey there guy don't blow up now whats to say Mac and Chip are listening to him. I personaly think no one really listens to him. We have hitters who can't hit and that reflects soly on them and the hitting coach look at Andruw when he got somewhere with a decent hitting coach it turned him around. Also I refuse to belive good pitching happens to often on teams such as the Pirates, D-backs, O's and other teams like that. There is a reason they are under 500 and normally it has to do with bad pitching. No I know anyone can get lucky once in a while but we consistantly make these teams and rookie pitchers look like the 2nd coming of Cy Young. Our hitters have gotten worse and worse each yerar weith him as hitting coach and I think players being overly aggressive can also be attributed to him. But like I said he doesn't coach durring the games!!!!!!!!! Apparently what you think is it is okay to only coach during practice and b4 games. No by name a coach should coach at all times. If a player is having problems he should be talking with them before at bats hlping them to figure out what might be pitched and what to possibly look for to have a productive at bat. Then after regardless of success or failure he should be going over things that were good and can use improvment. Especially with players struggling i.e Francour and Johnson. He doesn't do that he sitsa around and expects them to figure out how to do it on their own. Thats not a coach that is someone collecting a pay check!!!!

autigers5777
06-14-2009, 09:42 PM
Bobby has the earned the right to hang it up when he feels the time is right. Although I do feel we need to go a different direction. Truth be told we don't have alot of team speed outside of Mclouth and Shaefer when he was up so the stolen bases can't be completely blamed on him. He CAN NOT manage a bullpen for **** . TP shouldn't be a major league hitting coach period. I have no facts to support what I am saying. I have just not seen shots of him talking to any Brave hitter during a game about hitting

Iceman_24_05
06-14-2009, 09:49 PM
I think they can still hit and run a lot more and try to tag up and be aggressive. Thats what tis team needs is aggressive players. Not a whole bunch of guys looking around waiting for someone else to step up and make a play. Cox does deserve the right to hang them up when he chooses he has been a great manager but like i said it isn't hard when you have what he did to manage for so long with. However he can have his playersw play more aggressive. You don't need to be super fast. Just decent speed as long as you are playing smart and aggressive not carelessly.

hawksd911
06-14-2009, 09:52 PM
I also think it is time for him too go but get this in your head, WE ARENT GOING TO FIRE HIM, the only time that he leaves is when he retires.

autigers5777
06-14-2009, 09:54 PM
I agree with your comment about the hit and run. I can't recall the last time I have seen the Braves execute a hit and run. It seems like they just get happy when they get a hit and wait for someone to hit the 2 run homer. We don't have a line up that will see a 30 hr guy so that isn't going to work. We need to try something new.

Iceman_24_05
06-14-2009, 09:55 PM
I never said he should be fired!!!!!!!!!!I never said that. I think he has to think outside of his little box and find other mays to win until he does especially with this team.

hawksd911
06-14-2009, 10:14 PM
^^^
I wasnt talking to you I was talking to whoever said that he should get fired.

Iceman_24_05
06-14-2009, 10:23 PM
sorry thats my bad just where the comment came in I guess

hawksd911
06-14-2009, 10:30 PM
yeah no problem

BobbyCox4Life
06-14-2009, 10:31 PM
Bobby Cox isn't the problem. It's the shitest *** players... End of Story.

rtgthree
06-14-2009, 10:56 PM
1. Yes they would go to there fathers but I really think other players dont think TP is a great hitting coach when you see your team leaders not even trusting him. If we had a different coach they might work with him a little more and the players might trust him better.

What basis do you have to believe that "other players don't think TP is a great hitting coach"? What basis do you have to believe that ANY player doesn't think TP is a great hitting coach? You could cite Jeff Francoeur if you like, but if he thinks Pendleton is the cause of his struggles, he's just trying to blame somebody else for his suckitude.


2. So when Frenchy changes his swing and starts off well he is LUCKY, but when he goes back to his old swing working with TP he just sucks.

Wrong. He sucked the whole time, just early in the season he got lucky. That is a statistical fact...his BABIP was high, and none of his underlying skills changed: his isoOBP was as low as ever, and were it not for a pair of triples in one game, his isolated power would have been just as bad as always also. I'm not just making up an argument out of convenience; the reason he was successful early in the season had far more to do with luck than any substantial change in performance, since none of his stats changed except those influenced by luck.


That argument is ridiculous, French obviously changed some things and if we had Jaramillo I guarantee frenchy wouldnt be anywhere near what he is hitting now.

Frenchy "obviously changed some things." First, what exactly did he change? Second, it doesn't matter what he changed, since the results didn't change (only his luck did). Once again, you have no factual basis to "guarantee" that "if we had Jaramillo...frenchy wouldnt be anywhere near what he is hitting now."


3. What I'm saying is TP hasnt changed Yunels approach at all and he has stayed a good contact hitter moving up. If we could get a good hitting coach to get Yunel to see more pitches he might become a great hitter, a guy like Jeter who can get 180-210 hits every year. He could evolve but with TP he cant.

For the third time now, you don't know any of that, and you have no basis to say it. First, you don't know that Pendleton hasn't helped Escobar. Perhaps not by overhauling him, but only a bad coach would overhaul a guy like Yunel who's doing fine as is. Second, not everybody can be Derek Jeter. Players have ceilings; no matter how well they are coached, they only possess so much natural ability. And yes, if Yunel saw more pitches, maybe he could become a great hitter. But hitting is a delicate balance, and if he tried to see more pitches, it might throw off some other part of his game and he'd be useless. It's why it's so tough to fix guys like Francoeur; if they don't learn plate discipline right the first time, you can throw off their whole rhythm trying to get them to be patient. It's not a magic recipe where you get better the more pitches you see.


4. You just did the same with Jaramillo who actually is a good coach saying frenchy got lucky.

But, as I mentioned, Francoeur DID get lucky. That is an irrefutable statistical fact. I didn't just decide that so my argument would work.


While you think my evidence is maybe a little off point it really isnt and TP has to go.

Loving the logic here. In a nutshell, this says "I am right because I am right." I say that your evidence is "off point," and the best response you can muster is that "it really isnt and TP has to go." That doesn't logically justify anything.


While you disputed my points you still never said we should keep TP and I implied from your post you want him gone as well.

I am agnostic; I don't really know whether Pendleton is a good hitting coach or not. However, I think Frank Wren has done a fine job as general manager, and as a result, I trust him. And if Terry Pendleton is really as bad at his job as you say, then Frank Wren would have to be deaf or dumb to not know it. And I don't think Wren is deaf or dumb, and since I don't have any way to evaluate the situation independently (i.e., I have no real evidence either way), then I default to trusting Wren.

Either way I debate your points, because getting the right answer for the wrong reasons is just as bad as getting the wrong answer. And even if you've got the right answer, your reasoning is awful.


5. Like I said I dont want us to force a retirement but he isnt under contract after the season and he has put retirement off for 2 years now. Even if he didnt want to retire we have to hire a new manager, if he stil wants to work he can go to the FO. But we have no contractual binding and I really think Bobby will retire at seasons end.

We have to hope that he retires. If he doesn't, I see no alternative but to suffer through another year of his bullpen mismanagement. The FO simply has no choice in the matter; they cannot force him out.

rtgthree
06-14-2009, 11:06 PM
Now I know that you have to catch breaks as well as play well to win series but I think Cox's record is related more to the players he had then the quality of manager he is or was.

Cox's greatness as a manager doesn't come from what he does in the dugout. He's not that special in terms of on-field management. His brilliance is in the clubhouse, where his guys trust him and love to play for him. And that is really, really, really important.


As for T.P. i think toilet descirbes it best.

Now THAT is descriptive brilliance. Wow. Just...wow.


I don't think he is able to relate to the younger players. Thus the reason they struggle. It is painfully obvious that he is not a good coach.

First, what evidence do you have that he doesn't relate to younger players? Second, what young players are struggling besides Jeff Francoeur? Third, how is it "painfully obvious" that he isn't a good coach? Specifics, please.


However instead of sitting in your corner chewing on seeds why wouldn't you be talking to the players when they are in the hole giving them instruction helping them figure out what to look for and have more productive at bats.

First, these guys are professional baseball players. To some extent you expect them to know how to execute. They shouldn't have to be reminded that a grounder to the right side moves the runner over. Second, don't try to make it sound like he's lazy and just doesn't care and sits over in the corner chewing sunflower seeds all day. A lot of athletes don't take well to instruction right before they perform. If you watch on TV, the camera isn't on him the whole game, so you really don't even know what he is and isn't doing. Some coaches will do a lot of coaching in-game. Some like to do the coaching before the game, and let the players do their thing in games. Both styles work for certain coaches, and you are hardly expert enough to know which one works for the Braves.


If i felt like players wern't respecting me ala Francoure I would rectify that by displaying leadership tring to help other players out and when they see that maybe they would take what you have to say a little more serious.

What does this even mean? He does try to help players out...after all, that's his JOB.


look at Andruw when he got somewhere with a decent hitting coach it turned him around.

Wait, who was Andruw's hitting coach when he was hitting 40-50 homers a year? Oh, no that can't be right...it was Terry Pendleton!


But like I said he doesn't coach durring the games!!!!!!!!! Apparently what you think is it is okay to only coach during practice and b4 games. No by name a coach should coach at all times. If a player is having problems he should be talking with them before at bats hlping them to figure out what might be pitched and what to possibly look for to have a productive at bat. Then after regardless of success or failure he should be going over things that were good and can use improvment. Especially with players struggling i.e Francour and Johnson. He doesn't do that he sitsa around and expects them to figure out how to do it on their own. Thats not a coach that is someone collecting a pay check!!!!

That is flat out BS. There are a million different coaching styles out there: some guys are loud, some quiet, some always talking, some barely ever talking. And all of them can work, depending on the coach. To sit here and pretend like there is only the Iceman style of coaching is ridiculous. You didn't see Leo Mazzone in his pitcher's ear every half-inning...there is no one way to do it, and to think you know Pendleton is bad because you see him for 30 seconds on Peachtree TV every night is patently absurd.

nps6724
06-15-2009, 02:00 AM
A few ignorant folks in this thread. I'd still like to know how TWO PLAYERS STRUGGLING means the HC is bad. And one of those struggling players is a baseball moron who swings at garbage. But why blame him for being stupid when you can blame the HC (who I might add is not the one in the box with the bat)?

Brave Pack
06-15-2009, 02:48 AM
Wow, this is beyond ********. While we are at it, should we just go ahead and release Chipper Jones?

hawksd911
06-15-2009, 09:16 AM
^^^
yeah hell if we release chipper then why not trade Mac and Mclouth back to the Pirates.

jimmyrudolph76
06-15-2009, 10:37 AM
Very similar to last year. Heading into interleague we were about .500. Unfortunately, I think 2 weeks from now we'll be out of it. Never seen a team that just can't hit. I take that back, see last years team. At what point will somebody from the coaching staff be held accountable? Have you ever seen any of the coached in the dugout talking to one another with the exception of McDowell and Cox? It's strange. Every other team I watch, their staff talks to each other durring the game. That leads me to believe that it's Cox making every decision. Hitting, pitching, defensive allignments, running, etc. His ego appears to be a detriment to this team all around. Thoughts?

nps6724
06-15-2009, 10:42 AM
The problem is you can't overcome talent that much. Besides Brian, Chipper, Esco, and McLouth, we severely lack in power, speed, and average. And none of the aforementioned four are Pujols-like or Howard-esque. We just don't have the talent on offense.

jimmyrudolph76
06-15-2009, 11:27 AM
Chris Dimino brought up an interesting point this morning on Mayhem In The AM. He said basically thatb Esco's arrogance has gotten him hit several times this year, and our veteran pitching staff is sick and tired of having to defend their knuckleheaded teammate when the best thing might be for him to get left out to dry out there. Maybe completely losing his pitchers support in retaliation situations, would make him accountible to where he'd have to start playing the game the right way. Word is, that they are done sticking up for this guy. These guys are all veterans and play the game the right way. They have relationships with a lot of these guys that they shouldn't have to throw at because of Esco's additude.

nps6724
06-15-2009, 12:03 PM
Are these statements coming from actual sources with the team because I've never heard of any of it. Esco never came off as an arrogant player to me.

jimmyrudolph76
06-15-2009, 12:06 PM
Are these statements coming from actual sources with the team because I've never heard of any of it. Esco never came off as an arrogant player to me.

Without a doubt. He and Bowman are the only 2 you can trust in Atlanta.

nps6724
06-15-2009, 12:09 PM
Esco must be sneaky arrogant or something. You can usually tell who the arrogant people are and I never got that from Esco. I still think our team could use a few more players who are outside of the "business-like, zero emotion" mold the Braves love so much. When we were so good in the early-90s, those guys had a ton of emotion (Smoltz catching Greg Olsen in his arms, Justice jumping on Bream, the WS dogpile in '95). Since the late-90s, it seems our team lost their fire. At least to me.

MrJones
06-15-2009, 12:12 PM
Look, I don't want to be "Mr. Pessimistic" , but I think this years team is on it's way to 3rd place at best in the NL East this year... but I'm honestly OK with it. IF we see a trade for a BIG bat, and I mean a BLOCKBUSTER deal, then we've got a shot... but I still think it's slim. Honestly, as I've said in the past, I'm more excited about 2010-2011 when our future team will be in full force (hopefully). I consider anything more than us finishing around .500 to be a bonus this year.

nps6724
06-15-2009, 12:19 PM
I feel we should try to make the 2011 and after teams as good as we can so if we can trade a Vazquez for a good prospect who will be in the position to significantly help the team in '11/'12, I'd do it. I haven't seen anything from this team that makes me think they can make a run. The only time we perform on offense is when 7 or 8 guys are on. When 3 or 4 guys are on, we score 4. That's not going to get it done. I wouldn't go into "sell" mode, but I would entertain any and all offers that would help us in the coming years when Schafer, Heyward, and Freeman are ready.

jimmyrudolph76
06-15-2009, 12:24 PM
Look, I don't want to be "Mr. Pessimistic" , but I think this years team is on it's way to 3rd place at best in the NL East this year... but I'm honestly OK with it. IF we see a trade for a BIG bat, and I mean a BLOCKBUSTER deal, then we've got a shot... but I still think it's slim. Honestly, as I've said in the past, I'm more excited about 2010-2011 when our future team will be in full force (hopefully). I consider anything more than us finishing around .500 to be a bonus this year.

By that time Chipper will be 39, Lowe 39, Vazquez and Hoddy gone. So then you'll have 0 pitching. That's why it's importanat that we find a way to start hitting and win this year.

nps6724
06-15-2009, 12:26 PM
But we'll have JJ, Hanson, Medlen, and KK with Lowe. I'll take that 5 into battle.

AustinTheGreat
06-15-2009, 12:33 PM
escobar cant even perform little league plays. WHen i was in my prime days of little league hhaha i would NEVER EVER let a runner score from 3rd in a run down or PICKLE ha. Thats 2 times that has happened in a year. Escobar has **** for brains at SS in my opinon. GOod arm and range, but isnt aware at all. I dont even think any of its bobby's fault b/c he doesnt need to teach that. Thats little league play right there and he cant handle it.

rtgthree
06-15-2009, 12:41 PM
Have you ever seen any of the coached in the dugout talking to one another with the exception of McDowell and Cox? It's strange. Every other team I watch, their staff talks to each other durring the game. That leads me to believe that it's Cox making every decision. Hitting, pitching, defensive allignments, running, etc. His ego appears to be a detriment to this team all around. Thoughts?

I think that's pretty inaccurate. Again, you see the coaches in the dugout...what, a minute out of every hour on TV? Plus, they do a lot of their strategy and planning beforehand. I think you're drawing a pretty substantial conclusion from pretty insubstantial evidence.


Esco must be sneaky arrogant or something. You can usually tell who the arrogant people are and I never got that from Esco.

I've always read that Escobar was pretty distant from his teammates in the clubhouse. Bill Shanks especially brings this up a lot over at scout.com. He's definitely a flashy kind of player: how he throws his bat when he hits the ball, how he plays defense. And generally the flashier guys also tend to be more confident. It doesn't surprise me all that much to hear that Escobar can be a little cocky.


I still think our team could use a few more players who are outside of the "business-like, zero emotion" mold the Braves love so much. When we were so good in the early-90s, those guys had a ton of emotion (Smoltz catching Greg Olsen in his arms, Justice jumping on Bream, the WS dogpile in '95). Since the late-90s, it seems our team lost their fire. At least to me.

That emotion you're talking about came from winning, not from the fact that the players were themselves "emotional" players. When a franchise has been missing the playoffs for several years in a row, there just isn't as much to be excited about. Look, if we recognize that the team is falling out of the race, you can bet the players do too. And they can't really help but be bummed about that. It's tough to go out and play when you don't feel 100% about your chances every day. We need to bring in the talent to build a winning team, and the emotion you want to see will follow.


I feel we should try to make the 2011 and after teams as good as we can so if we can trade a Vazquez for a good prospect who will be in the position to significantly help the team in '11/'12, I'd do it. I haven't seen anything from this team that makes me think they can make a run.

It would have to be a helluva prospect IMO to trade Vazquez. He is SO undervalued because he's always been one of those guys that never quite pitched up to his peripherals, for various reasons. People still think of him as a mid-rotation innings eater when in fact he's far more than that. I'm just afraid we couldn't get equal value for him.

nps6724
06-15-2009, 12:43 PM
That emotion you're talking about came from winning, not from the fact that the players were themselves "emotional" players. When a franchise has been missing the playoffs for several years in a row, there just isn't as much to be excited about. Look, if we recognize that the team is falling out of the race, you can bet the players do too. And they can't really help but be bummed about that. It's tough to go out and play when you don't feel 100% about your chances every day. We need to bring in the talent to build a winning team, and the emotion you want to see will follow.

I'm talking since the late-90s. I think we got complacent with all the playoff appearances (almost like we "deserved" them before we earned them) and it's carried over from there.



It would have to be a helluva prospect IMO to trade Vazquez. He is SO undervalued because he's always been one of those guys that never quite pitched up to his peripherals, for various reasons. People still think of him as a mid-rotation innings eater when in fact he's far more than that. I'm just afraid we couldn't get equal value for him.

I was just using Javy as an example. I don't want to trade him, really. But replace Vazquez with Kotchman or whoever.

nps6724
06-15-2009, 12:46 PM
escobar cant even perform little league plays. WHen i was in my prime days of little league hhaha i would NEVER EVER let a runner score from 3rd in a run down or PICKLE ha. Thats 2 times that has happened in a year. Escobar has **** for brains at SS in my opinon. GOod arm and range, but isnt aware at all. I dont even think any of its bobby's fault b/c he doesnt need to teach that. Thats little league play right there and he cant handle it.

..What? Barbaro never even looked at the runner. It's his responsibility to look the runner back. The runner just kpet creeping down the line and as soon as it was thrown to Esco, he ran. Even if Esco threw immediately, he's most likely safe at home.

rtgthree
06-15-2009, 12:49 PM
I'm talking since the late-90s. I think we got complacent with all the playoff appearances (almost like we "deserved" them before we earned them) and it's carried over from there.

I think this Braves team is a different sort of non-emotional than those teams in the late-90s and early 2000s. Those guys were always just described as "professional" during the winning years. The Glavines and Madduxes and Chippers just went out and did their job, and they were damned good at it.

This team seems more downtrodden than "professional." That's just my personal observation though.


I was just using Javy as an example. I don't want to trade him, really. But replace Vazquez with Kotchman or whoever.

Ah, understood. Kotchman could be an interesting trade chip if Canizares shows up for an extended period of time. I mean I don't have a problem trading Javy, just we need to be sure to get a franchise prospect in return.

AustinTheGreat
06-15-2009, 12:51 PM
..What? Barbaro never even looked at the runner. It's his responsibility to look the runner back. The runner just kpet creeping down the line and as soon as it was thrown to Esco, he ran. Even if Esco threw immediately, he's most likely safe at home.
WHy did the announcers say immediately that it was escobars fault?? Once when he got the ball from barbaro he should of looked the runner back. He didnt look there right away. And this is his 2nd time doing that, it was his fault earlier in the season. ANd he fell asleep and let that runner score the other game. His awareness is poor. Thats why he was benched. http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090614&content_id=5323020&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

nps6724
06-15-2009, 12:56 PM
...Are you blind? Watch the play again in the video. Lowe throws to Barbaro who throws to Esco. He never has the ball twice.

I don't think I saw the first time he did it. Do you remember who it was against or anything? I'd like to see what happened.

When the runner scored the other day in Atlanta, no one told Esco he was going home (and Bobby said as much in the recap). The entire infield is to blame, Esco for not looking and the others for not letting him know. That's like expecting the pitcher to field a bunt and throw to 2nd for an out with no one telling him.

AustinTheGreat
06-15-2009, 01:05 PM
...Are you blind? Watch the play again in the video. Lowe throws to Barbaro who throws to Esco. He never has the ball twice.

I don't think I saw the first time he did it. Do you remember who it was against or anything? I'd like to see what happened.

When the runner scored the other day in Atlanta, no one told Esco he was going home (and Bobby said as much in the recap). The entire infield is to blame, Esco for not looking and the others for not letting him know. That's like expecting the pitcher to field a bunt and throw to 2nd for an out with no one telling him.

After watching the video again i see escobar only had it twice but...when he caught it he barely glanced at the runner and his body was all the way turned towards 1st. He could of been catching it and reachin to get the ball ready to throw home. I forget what game he did it , the other time.

nps6724
06-15-2009, 01:07 PM
Where are you seeing him with the ball twice?? It goes Lowe-to-Barbaro-to-Esco-to-McCann. And Barbaro didn't look either and he's the one who should be looking. Even if Esco throws home immediately, he's safe.

BobbyCox4Life
06-15-2009, 02:25 PM
I think this Braves team is a different sort of non-emotional than those teams in the late-90s and early 2000s. Those guys were always just described as "professional" during the winning years. The Glavines and Madduxes and Chippers just went out and did their job, and they were damned good at it.

This team seems more downtrodden than "professional." That's just my personal observation though.



Ah, understood. Kotchman could be an interesting trade chip if Canizares shows up for an extended period of time. I mean I don't have a problem trading Javy, just we need to be sure to get a franchise prospect in return.

I was thinking the same thing. Package Kotch with some prospects for a good hitting outfielder. I hear the nats need money to sign strasburg so they might unload Dunn. I know Dunn is playing first, but he will be fine in the outfield. He cant be much worse than diaz or GA.

jimmyrudolph76
06-15-2009, 02:36 PM
I don't want to give up on this team just yet. We are really underachieving this year and management and coaching has to be blamed. Reason being for not wanting to give up is, look at who we're chasing. The Mets, Phills, and Fish (at this point) are not much better if any than we are. I'm affraid that Bobby's loyalty is hurting us way more than it's helping us. Canizares should have been up here a month ago. Norton is awful! Diaz needs to be right every night. Sure Frenchy's got a great glove, but he's killing us at the plate. KJ doesn't need to be out there either. Just play Prado until Infante comes back. Meanwhile, Perez and Gomez ( a lefty and a righty) are unhittable at Gwinnett. Give them a shot. Why does Bennett and Moylan have to pitch everyday? Change this now please. All in house moves that give us a better chance to win!

MrJones
06-15-2009, 04:39 PM
By that time Chipper will be 39, Lowe 39, Vazquez and Hoddy gone. So then you'll have 0 pitching. That's why it's importanat that we find a way to start hitting and win this year.

Hanson, Medlen, Rohrbough, Jurrjens and who knows, maybe one of the college arms we drafted this year... plus who says Huddy will be gone ???? How do you figure we have no future pitching ????:eyebrow:

NBA_Starter
06-15-2009, 05:10 PM
The most frustrating thing is that we look so good in Game 1 and 2 of a series and then lose the last 2! UGH!:confused:

CrippledRam
06-15-2009, 05:29 PM
Ah, understood. Kotchman could be an interesting trade chip if Canizares shows up for an extended period of time. I mean I don't have a problem trading Javy, just we need to be sure to get a franchise prospect in return.

Kotchman and Javy together could get us a huge haul.

herbert91
06-15-2009, 05:38 PM
It is quite obvious that the offense needs something to create a sense of meaning at this point. I am convinced that when a team bogs down this way and continues over a long period of time, something needs to be changed. In my business, we go by the slogan that "if you keep doing what you're doing, you're gonna keep getting what you're getting". I definitely think the first change to make would be the batting coach. TP don't have to be fired, if he is liked that much by the organization, simply move him to another slot but by all means, get in a new batting coach. One that knows how to coach and more importantly, one that knows how to build confidence in the batter, the right way.... by teaching him how to be aggresive while teaching him to put the bat on the ball. It is astounding to me that a player can reach the major league level and suddenly forget how to hit the ball. For a player to get to the majors, he had to be the outstanding hitter in the area and then out of all of those, only the best reach the big show. Yes.... I do think it is coaching and the batting coach is the first change to make. If we don't do it soon, we are destined to another less than average season which is a shame because I think the talent is there to bust out and actually lead the division.

rtgthree
06-15-2009, 06:11 PM
This belongs in the "venting palooza" thread (love that title, BTW). We can at least contain all the venting paloozas in one place.

rtgthree
06-15-2009, 06:26 PM
The Mets, Phills, and Fish (at this point) are not much better if any than we are.

Um, I'm not too sure about that. The Braves' playoff odds are down to about 8.5% right now...


KJ doesn't need to be out there either. Just play Prado until Infante comes back.

His luck will never turn around if he doesn't play.


Meanwhile, Perez and Gomez ( a lefty and a righty) are unhittable at Gwinnett. Give them a shot. Why does Bennett and Moylan have to pitch everyday?

Well, I mean it would be nice if Bennett and Moylan didn't have to pitch every day, but if you look at the appearances by all our bullpen guys, it's pretty much even. Nobody's getting used much more frequently than anybody else. And it's not like you can call up Perez and Gomez (who are actually both left-handed, please do your homework) without getting rid of people...what exactly do you propose to do with Moylan and Bennett? Release them? Trade them?

Either way, there's a reason why the Braves pulled Perez and Gomez off the minor-league free-agent pile this winter: they just aren't that good. You're right that they are "unhittable" but that's just because they're getting lucky. Not even Greg Maddux could sustain hit rates of five per nine innings. And if you look at peripherals, things get ugly fast: Perez is walking nearly five men per nine innings, and that will only rise if he gets called up. And Gomez has a K/BB ratio of 20/19 in his 40 2/3 innings, which means that not only is he walking too many, he's also not missing bats...at least Perez is striking people out.


Kotchman and Javy together could get us a huge haul.

You think so? I sort of doubt it. Kotchman is one of those guys who's just sort of a placeholder...solid but unspectacular. And Vazquez is vastly undervalued. I'm not so sure we could get such a monster take for those two.

redwhiteandblue
06-15-2009, 08:17 PM
You think so? I sort of doubt it. Kotchman is one of those guys who's just sort of a placeholder...solid but unspectacular. And Vazquez is vastly undervalued. I'm not so sure we could get such a monster take for those two.

Do you think if by chance we did move these two in one trade, which I would have to assume means we're out of contention down the road and moving them to a contender, we could at least pull a prospect of the Matt LaPorta type? I use that comparison because it was the most recent I remember a teams top prospect, a real deal, got dealt. Given that was for a crack at CC Sabathia early before the deadline, but I wonder if Javy/Kotch could pull us a prospect that touted. What do you think?

CrippledRam
06-15-2009, 08:42 PM
You think so? I sort of doubt it. Kotchman is one of those guys who's just sort of a placeholder...solid but unspectacular. And Vazquez is vastly undervalued. I'm not so sure we could get such a monster take for those two.


Could Tex take Vasquez and Frenchy for Cruz and a badish contract? Does Rudy think he really fixed him?

jbizzie10
06-15-2009, 09:47 PM
off topic but would appreciate if someone could help! im going to the braves game tuesday the 23rd when the yanks come to town im trying to figure who is scheduled to start i think it would be hanson! which would be awesome if anyone has any ideas please respond! sorry to be off topic just need help lol

leftie5
06-15-2009, 11:14 PM
off topic but would appreciate if someone could help! im going to the braves game tuesday the 23rd when the yanks come to town im trying to figure who is scheduled to start i think it would be hanson! which would be awesome if anyone has any ideas please respond! sorry to be off topic just need help lol

You would be correct if the rotation continues as it currently stands. There is a rescheduled game with the Cubs on Monday, so Tommy is scheduled to pitch the first game of the Yankee series.

BRAVE KID
06-16-2009, 12:01 AM
This belongs in the "venting palooza" thread (love that title, BTW). We can at least contain all the venting paloozas in one place.lol thanks, it was the first thing that came to my mind.

rtgthree
06-16-2009, 12:33 AM
Do you think if by chance we did move these two in one trade, which I would have to assume means we're out of contention down the road and moving them to a contender, we could at least pull a prospect of the Matt LaPorta type? I use that comparison because it was the most recent I remember a teams top prospect, a real deal, got dealt. Given that was for a crack at CC Sabathia early before the deadline, but I wonder if Javy/Kotch could pull us a prospect that touted. What do you think?

First, I think it's highly unlikely the Braves package those two. I don't think Kotchman will hit the trade block until the winter because the team will need time to gain enough confidence in Canizares before they move Kotch. Second, I don't know. I would think we could get a LaPorta-type prospect, but remember that's really all the Indians got. I would want a more Teixeira-esque package, with a franchise centerpiece plus significant other prospects. Vazquez is an ace in my view, and he's controllable for another year. If I am conceding 2009, I don't move Vazquez at the deadline unless I get blown away with an offer of multiple good prospects.

If we don't get blown away, we can always use the second half of the season to fully evaluate all our options: Hudson, Hanson, Medlen, and any other rotation candidate. Then, armed with the most possible knowledge, we look to wheel and deal this winter.


Could Tex take Vasquez and Frenchy for Cruz and a badish contract? Does Rudy think he really fixed him?

You are obsessed with Nelson Cruz. The Rangers aren't going to trade him.

CrippledRam
06-16-2009, 01:17 AM
Yup =]

herbert91
06-17-2009, 02:27 PM
Joel Barker had an article in Bleacher Report discussing the need to shake up the Braves with a few trades and he talked about the need to replace Terry Pendleton as batting coach in order to get a change in mentality. I totally agree that the right person in the coaching slot could wake them up and shake them up and get the offense going. Again I say that We're gonna keep getting what we're getting if we keep doing what we're doing. TP is a nice guy and there are places for him but we need new mentality in the offense. Mr. Wren, bring in Hermida or any other bat you feel would improve us but also bring in a new batting coach.

nps6724
06-17-2009, 03:29 PM
We need new talent on offense. We have a black hole in RF that won't improve, a 1B with zero power, and a LF platoon involving a has-been and a backup. Last night they showed all the division leaders in MLB and all of them had high SLG. All of them have at least 1 big bopper in the middle of their lineup. We have 2 guys (Chip and Mac) who hit 20-25. That big bat makes a huge difference.

bravesfan22193
06-17-2009, 05:25 PM
I don't think we need to move for a major bat like some/most of you feel we do at times. Yes this year has been extremely frustrating but as rtg has pointed out numerous times, 2010/2011 and beyond is the focus of this organization. We've compiled some decent pieces at the major league level to go with an excellent starting pitching staff. Lowe, Vazquez, Jurrjens, Hudson, and Hanson is what I'm hoping for in the starting staff next year with Kawakami on the move. Many think this is a move we can't make because it would damage our influence on the Japanese market and I disagree, the fact that we took a chance on him and gave him his first ML opportunity is only going to help us. If we put the money out, they will come to Atlanta to play. To fix the LF problem we can go out and get a FA without sacrificing any more of our trade pieces and prospects, we can pursue options such as Holliday, Ankiel, Cameron, etc. With a top 15 pick (yes that's the way it is looking right now) and a little more money available hopefully we can return to our ways of picking high ceiling HS pitchers and we can acquire another pick with one of Soriano/Gonzalez likely on his way out. This year is looking more and more hopeless but I like the direction of this organization (other than the Mike Minor pick) and think we'll be ready next year with some good baseball decisions

wolfman2
06-17-2009, 06:46 PM
for the free agents in LF, none of them seem like great options, Holliday has not been doing great since he left Colorado, Ankiel will always be a steroided pitcher in my mind, and Cameron is getting up there in age. He will be 37 net January. He has decent power, but probably will be another Garrett Anderson

redwhiteandblue
06-17-2009, 06:58 PM
First, I think it's highly unlikely the Braves package those two. I don't think Kotchman will hit the trade block until the winter because the team will need time to gain enough confidence in Canizares before they move Kotch. Second, I don't know. I would think we could get a LaPorta-type prospect, but remember that's really all the Indians got. I would want a more Teixeira-esque package, with a franchise centerpiece plus significant other prospects. Vazquez is an ace in my view, and he's controllable for another year. If I am conceding 2009, I don't move Vazquez at the deadline unless I get blown away with an offer of multiple good prospects.

If we don't get blown away, we can always use the second half of the season to fully evaluate all our options: Hudson, Hanson, Medlen, and any other rotation candidate. Then, armed with the most possible knowledge, we look to wheel and deal this winter.I couldn't agree more. I wasn't saying we would exactly be looking to move these two this year or calling for it, but someone mentioned about moving them two. I was more so wondering what we could get. Good point about LaPorta though, I remember him being the mainstay of a next to nothing package, but didn't realize Cleveland was so thin, prospect-depth wise.

I personally don't see us moving Kotchman or JV even at this years deadline. Vazques arguably, as you love to say, has ace stuff. He's great for our staff, I think every night he takes the mound we have a chance to win more then anyone else. That in part though is because JJ never gets run support, and Lowe always has something to him that makes me uneasy.

And as far as Kotchman goes, he strikes me as a perfect fit right now with no real reason to move him in the near future. I'm guessing Freeman is at earliest a 2011 ETA, and Kotchman although not one of the more spectacular, is one of the more solid and consistent 1B in the game. He's a great 5 or 6 hitter I think. He's young at age 26, is a steady player with a little more room to improve his average, and he's a pretty good gap to gap hitter, again with room to improve. To me he has a bunch of seasoning and 3 real full seasons under his belt. In those three seasons I see a good middle of the lineup hitter. He hit 37 doubles in his first full season, a small drop off to 28 last season, and is on pace for a career number of around 45 doubles this year. Last year you could probably attribute the drop off to his bad start in Atlanta adjusting to new surroundings and a new league. To me he's a keeper for now, as next year his trade value will either stay the same or maybe he has a real career year in his 4th full season and bolsters his value.


We need new talent on offense. We have a black hole in RF that won't improve, a 1B with zero power, and a LF platoon involving a has-been and a backup. Last night they showed all the division leaders in MLB and all of them had high SLG. All of them have at least 1 big bopper in the middle of their lineup. We have 2 guys (Chip and Mac) who hit 20-25. That big bat makes a huge difference.

I agree with your assesment of our corner OF positions, but to me 1B is some of the least of our problems. I get 1B is a big position to have a power bat, but we have a good guy there now doing no harm and we have, as you said, two abysmal corner OF positions where we could look to acquire those power bats.

nps6724
06-17-2009, 07:04 PM
Kotchman isn't part of the problem, but when you lack power at a traditionally power-oriented spot, you have to make up for it elsewhere. He's not part of the problem, but he creates a new one.

redwhiteandblue
06-17-2009, 08:08 PM
^^Have to disagree. To me, the problem is not doing anything about it, as opposed to not having the power there. Sure, it hurts us right now but that's because there's no real worthwhile fixes to find a good power bat in the corner OF, or I would have to assume we'd move on one, no? I just don't see it as another problem as opposed to our lack of power in places we're getting very poor lack of production, and in turn making no real changes in those positions.

bravesrule
06-17-2009, 11:59 PM
**** power. I'm tired of seeing guys stranded all over the bases. I've seen us leave men on 3'rd base with less than two outs a lot this year. Is it too hard to ask for a base hit or a sacrifice fly every once in a while? I mean a home run is great but I would be perfectly satisfied with just getting a run in every now and then.

And Kotchman is definitely not the problem. Frenchy and Kelly are. Its like all Frenchy can do is chop the ball in the dirt for a double play and all Kelly can do is pop-up. But at least Kelly has hope, he can take walks and has been a good 2'nd half hitter in the past.

jmtapia
06-18-2009, 01:25 AM
IMO Kotchman would be a great leadoff hitter...but he isnt a slugger and everyone knows that...to bad for kotchman he is stuck in a 1B body... he plays great defense too...

runningcircles
06-18-2009, 02:15 AM
Hey, Bobby, you wanna know why we can't buy a freaking run? THIS IS WHY!!!

GA: OBP .294
KJ: OBP .291
JFK: OBP .281

Do you guys realize how pathetic it is to not be able to get on base at a .300 clip?!?! It's astounding, really, that not only do we have 3 guys doing it, but that one of them is our #5 hitter in our everyday lineup! That spot is supposed to be reserved for one of our better hitters, not a guy who pitchers try to get to, because they know he's an "automatic out"!

We've gotta do something about our lineup. As miserable as we've been, we're still only 6.5 games out of 1st place (yes, I realize we're in 4th place, but 6.5 games is not exactly insurmountable) and there are still 3.5 months left in the season. But we can't risk going to get a bat with a lineup this terrible. What is one guy going to do, unless that guy is Albert Pujols? I've got a lineup I'm about to post, that I think would be a major upgrade, only using pieces we currently have on the roster. Since Bobby thinks he's still dealing with the players we had in the mid 90's, and we'll turn it around sometime soon, there's no way he'll do anything, much less something as drastic as this, but, hey, an optimistic fan can still dream can't he?

Blanco LF
Escobar
McLouth
Chipper
McCann
Kotch
Diaz RF
Prado 2B

As much as Blanco is not an everyday ML player, he's still a major upgrade from what we have in 3 of our spots right now. In 234 AB's as our leadoff hitter last year he got on base at a .371 clip and stole 8 bags (more than 20 when calculated over an entire season of AB's). He did only hit in the low .250's but a leadoff hitter's value is getting on base. With a 2 - 5 of Escobar, McLouth, Chipper, and McCann, it'd be awfully nice to have a guy getting on base as much as Blanco did last year. That brings me to McLouth. If we do NOTHING else with the lineup, as I'm sure we won't, we have to at least get him out of the leadoff spot and into a spot lower in the order. He's a leadoff hitter in any decent lineup, which ours obviously isn't. If Bobby still wants to sit back and wait for the 3 run homer, or 2 run double, let's at least have one of more capable power hitters hitting somewhere in the lineup where there might be a runner or two on base in front of him. That is, unless, our offense is so inept that we are now sitting back and waiting for the ONE run homer!

bravesrule
06-18-2009, 02:25 AM
^Yeah but McLouth will get better and Kotchman is just too slow.

jmtapia
06-18-2009, 02:33 AM
i meant in general

nps6724
06-18-2009, 07:58 AM
Stop thinking so logically. It makes too much sense for us to do.

littleknighty
06-18-2009, 08:38 AM
After last night we dropped below the Pirates in the standings. Guys Im an optimist almost to a fault but were only a couple of games from being next to last in the NL. The next 10 games are going to dictate our season and there against the top two american league teams. I hate to admit defeat but I think its time to make some moves for next year. My biggest fear is that Liberty cuts payroll after this year bad attendance in a bad economy and a losing team. Just needed to Vent this year is frustrating me. I do also beleive if we would do something with Frenchy we would play better. I think the whole Frenchy thing has become a distraction that needs resolved quickly.

nps6724
06-18-2009, 09:06 AM
I have a feeling the next couple weeks will effectively end our season.

MrJones
06-18-2009, 09:15 AM
Is it just me, or does it look like half the guys in the line-up look just plain defeated on every ground ball they hit. It's like no one wants to try to hustle to first (Diaz, Esco, and McLouth aside) and outfield hits that could be stretched to a double are never persude as such. Somethings got to change w/ our mentality of having to hit 4 singles in an inning to get a run.

I wish we could get D. Ross some more @bats as well. Maybe get rid of GA & Norton, let Diaz pinch hit, move D. Ross to left field, call up Clint Sammons to back up McCann/ give him a day off, and bring Barton back up for another RH bat. If McCann has to go to the DL again for some reason than put Ross back at catcher and stick Diaz in LF.

D. Ross has a good arm and his range can't possibly be worse than GA.

nps6724
06-18-2009, 09:17 AM
And I guarantee Ross would try harder than GA.

cheerio
06-18-2009, 09:44 AM
I can see you frustration especially when walks are involved in the OBP.

uncblue2332
06-18-2009, 09:50 AM
We wont win when are lineup is crap it needs to be

1. Yunel
2. Kotch
3. Chipp
4. Nate
5. B-Mac
6. GA/Diaz
7. French
8. KJ
9. Pitcher

mgcslugger33
06-18-2009, 09:51 AM
I like that line up... with our pitching staff thats all we need. Wish it would happen.

BravoFan3736
06-18-2009, 09:54 AM
After last night we dropped below the Pirates in the standings. Guys Im an optimist almost to a fault but were only a couple of games from being next to last in the NL. The next 10 games are going to dictate our season and there against the top two american league teams. I hate to admit defeat but I think its time to make some moves for next year. My biggest fear is that Liberty cuts payroll after this year bad attendance in a bad economy and a losing team. Just needed to Vent this year is frustrating me. I do also beleive if we would do something with Frenchy we would play better. I think the whole Frenchy thing has become a distraction that needs resolved quickly.

Well if we did tank the rest of the year with the Nats pulling acouple hot streaks it would be a great position to get that #1 pick with VERY Deep Draft pool of talent next year. Imagine getting Bryce Harper in next years draft!! The chances that happening right now are slim to none but this team is still on track for another top 10 pick in next years draft. If that is where this team is at around the AS break/TD 10+ games back in the division standing/WC than front office needs to do a complete fire sale of a few guys of Soriano/Gonzo/Frenchy/KJ/GA/Lowe/JV/KK to retool this team for the future. Not saying all those guys will go but with the current market VERY thin in avaliable SP we could get premium talent in return which would serve this team the best in the future that could be paired up with Heyward/Freeman/Hanson/Cjohnson. I am tired of seeing below .500 baseball and hoping this team will turn it around. But let's face it, this team are atleast two or more moves away from contending at least two corner OFers that will produce at replacement levels. Though these needs can't be address this year via trade unless FW is thinking in another Tex part II type trade of a Holliday in which we would again be in the hope that a hitter will take us to the promise land. Didn't happen with Tex and it won't happen with Holliday which is the reason why we should seriously consider moving all the parts that the Braves have to get some high cieling talent in return that can help us with the next 1-2 yrs when Heyward/Freeman should be ready to go.

Future will be determine what FW will do now this season and how to make this team compete for championships. Than again if we do keep Sorian/Gonzo and trade for Holliday and they are given ARB and walk than we could have 8 picks in the first three rounds of a VERY DEEPLY TALENTED Draft next year which only increased the odds of the Braves hitting the Jackpot in drafting a Chipper type of talent. FW and Co. will have acouple choices to make on how to do this by either being sellers this year or trading prospects now to get a holliday and letting our Type A FA (Soriano/Gonzo/Holliday) go to FA and getting multiple top end draft picks to retool the Farm. Or in the hopes that the economy is still in the tank and Holliday/Bora$$ feel that they can't get more than 16M per year on a new contract(Doubtfull with the Yanks need for powerhitting OFer) and accept ARB which he would probably get 14-16M in ARB. Which than we have our RF for 1 yr and not rush Heyward up till he would be properly ready by 11' and still we get the picks when he leaves for FA. Though this are all senarios and gambles that the braves will have to consider and choose which direction is best for the team to compete now and have the future ready to step in. Alot IFs but a thought process that need to be looked out and developed in order to have to type of strategy in putting together a complete ball club with pitching and hitting at the same time.

Interesting choices that will determine if we will be able to compete in the next few years....

ATLKoos16
06-18-2009, 09:56 AM
When will Bobby put Prado at second. He's been on fire at the plate and can play anywhere in the infield so i think he can handle second and its not like Kelly is a gold glover anyway

Saltyfan
06-18-2009, 09:57 AM
Hate to say it. But thats not all we need. We need a offensive threat. Someone who can pick up the slack when the Chip or McCann is having a bad day.

nps6724
06-18-2009, 10:00 AM
There are 55 major-league hitters (with enough ABs to qualify) with a BATTING AVERAGE equal to or higher than GA's OBP, 59 equal or higher than KJ's, and 75 equal to or higher than Jeff's. Let me remind you this is comparing other player's BAs to their OBP.

mgcslugger33
06-18-2009, 10:05 AM
^^^^
or
1B-Kotch
SS-Yunel
3rd-Chipper
C-McCann
Cf-McCLouth
Lf-Ross
RF-BJones/Diaz
2b-Prado

I dont like Kotch's lack of speed at the top, but Id rather have guy's that can hit xbh's behind him.

nps6724
06-18-2009, 10:10 AM
Kotch, to me, would be a terrific leadoff guy. He leads the team in doubles so he will be at 2nd a lot. He's also 3rd on the team (of qualified players) in OBP behind Chip and Esco (he's also behind Mac). He won't hit a lot of HRs so you're not losing power in the order. He doesn't walk much but he doesn't strike out either (lowest of the regulars and tied with Mac with only 19). For his career, he averages 3.6 pitches/PA and is at a career-best 3.77 this year. It will also be hard for him to hit into a lot of DPs leading off. I think it's worth a shot to get Nate's 25-30 HRs with some runners on. Do we really want an Alfonso Soriano who hits 30 HRs with 20 solo shots?

BravoFan3736
06-18-2009, 11:00 AM
Kotch, to me, would be a terrific leadoff guy. He leads the team in doubles so he will be at 2nd a lot. He's also 3rd on the team (of qualified players) in OBP behind Chip and Esco (he's also behind Mac). He won't hit a lot of HRs so you're not losing power in the order. He doesn't walk much but he doesn't strike out either (lowest of the regulars and tied with Mac with only 19). For his career, he averages 3.6 pitches/PA and is at a career-best 3.77 this year. It will also be hard for him to hit into a lot of DPs leading off. I think it's worth a shot to get Nate's 25-30 HRs with some runners on. Do we really want an Alfonso Soriano who hits 30 HRs with 20 solo shots?

ROFL :speechless: HE will NEVER be hitting leadoff!! IMHO he would be a great #2 hole hitter with him being a Doubles machine. He would be on base to give guys like NM/Chip/Mac more RBI opportunities to drive him in.

nps6724
06-18-2009, 11:02 AM
I didn't say he WOULD hit leadoff, just that he'd be good at it.

uncblue2332
06-18-2009, 11:09 AM
I didn't say he WOULD hit leadoff, just that he'd be good at it.

Guys like kotch who hit doubles alot are perfect #2 hitters. Its ideal for a #2 hitter to do just that. Yunel has proven his worth as a top of the order hitter and has proven in his career he can handle to lead off.

nps6724
06-18-2009, 11:10 AM
I'd rather Kotch leadoff. Esco just isn't patient enough. He attacks the first pitch too much. Plus, he has more HR power than Kotch so if he bats 2nd, he can knock in more runs.

I'd agree with Kotch batting 2nd if we had a true leadoff hitter.

mgcslugger33
06-18-2009, 11:28 AM
ROFL :speechless: HE will NEVER be hitting leadoff!! IMHO he would be a great #2 hole hitter with him being a Doubles machine. He would be on base to give guys like NM/Chip/Mac more RBI opportunities to drive him in.

Isn't that what good lead off hitters do? Id rather have a lead off double than a 1 out double.

Dont get me wrong. Ive said all year kotch is a perfect 2 hole guy, but in our situation(whether it will ever happen or not) him leading off makes a lot of sense.

wolfman2
06-18-2009, 11:31 AM
if somehow, the guys can get their act together and we can somehow start winning again even against the tough competition we have coming up, we can gain serious ground on the Phillies who will be sans Ibanez for the next 15 days: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmBCRilYfcULQeZTTF9C9aURvLYF?slug=ap-phillies-ibanez&prov=ap&type=lgns

rtgthree
06-18-2009, 11:37 AM
It's not that I disagree with runningcircles, but it's worth noting that Anderson and Johnson should trend upwards. That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to shake up the lineup; I like Blanco and Prado both. But neither GA nor KJ projects to keep up the worthlessness.

ATLKoos16
06-18-2009, 11:51 AM
^^^^
or
1B-Kotch
SS-Yunel
3rd-Chipper
C-McCann
Cf-McCLouth
Lf-Ross
RF-BJones/Diaz
2b-Prado

I dont like Kotch's lack of speed at the top, but Id rather have guy's that can hit xbh's behind him.

JUst to clarify, Ross is Cody Ross from the Marlins right? Not our backup catcher David Ross

nps6724
06-18-2009, 11:57 AM
They may not project it, but how long do you stick with black holes?

BravoFan3736
06-18-2009, 12:05 PM
if somehow, the guys can get their act together and we can somehow start winning again even against the tough competition we have coming up, we can gain serious ground on the Phillies who will be sans Ibanez for the next 15 days: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmBCRilYfcULQeZTTF9C9aURvLYF?slug=ap-phillies-ibanez&prov=ap&type=lgns

It would take 60 day DL for Ibanez to be on the shelf in order to help the braves but it really doesn't matter because the braves would be luck to go .500 baseball in the next 11 games against Boston/Cubs/Yanks before they start the series against the phillies.

These next 2 weeks will cement this team to become sellers....

beldugo
06-18-2009, 12:11 PM
some stuff...
braves with infante 20-19
braves without infante 10-15

with infante we were a mediocre team
without infante we just suck!!

mgcslugger33
06-18-2009, 12:31 PM
JUst to clarify, Ross is Cody Ross from the Marlins right? Not our backup catcher David Ross

No david.... we were talking about him earlier in the thread. Atleast he would bust his ***. Just need someone to hit. Think Ryan Klesko... ha

MrJones
06-18-2009, 03:13 PM
No david.... we were talking about him earlier in the thread. Atleast he would bust his ***. Just need someone to hit. Think Ryan Klesko... ha

LOL, Bingo :clap:

NBA_Starter
06-18-2009, 03:15 PM
Nothing surprising here..:confused:

uncblue2332
06-18-2009, 03:34 PM
It's not that I disagree with runningcircles, but it's worth noting that Anderson and Johnson should trend upwards. That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to shake up the lineup; I like Blanco and Prado both. But neither GA nor KJ projects to keep up the worthlessness.

Dont trust projections. Garret Atkins was suppossed to have 90-100 rbi this year look at him now. Players have down years and in some cases careers go down the toilet....Jeff Francouer or they go down for a while and then rise up somewhat...Andruw Jones. Just go by how the player is playing and expect nothing else but what they're doing until it changes. Thats why we have no one to replace frenchy...we thought he would come back and projected him as better but uh oh what happened???

CrippledRam
06-18-2009, 04:35 PM
Dont trust projections. Garret Atkins was suppossed to have 90-100 rbi this year look at him now. Players have down years and in some cases careers go down the toilet....Jeff Francouer or they go down for a while and then rise up somewhat...Andruw Jones. Just go by how the player is playing and expect nothing else but what they're doing until it changes. Thats why we have no one to replace frenchy...we thought he would come back and projected him as better but uh oh what happened???

That's not projection, that BABIP. Kelly's is a career .318 and this year is sitting at .254 and GA is slightly below his. KJ should get luckier.

rtgthree
06-18-2009, 04:35 PM
Dont trust projections. Garret Atkins was suppossed to have 90-100 rbi this year look at him now.

Every year there are a handful of players who just lose it. In Atkins' case, his line drive percentage fell from 22.1% to 14.4% basically overnight. That only happens to a few players every year. For the vast majority, you can reasonably anticipate what they are going to produce. Keep in mind I'm not just talking about "crappy sabermetric" projection systems like PECOTA and CHONE. I'm just talking about general projections about what kind of performance to expect from a player. Evaluating players is always a mesh of what they are doing plus what you thought they would do. If you lose the projection piece, then you'll be easily fooled by flukes.


Just go by how the player is playing and expect nothing else but what they're doing until it changes.

On a short-term level, yeah, this is OK, like for deciding who to put in the lineup day-to-day because if a guy gets a hot streak you can always bench him when he goes cold again. But when you're talking long-term like whether to trade or keep players, that's a patently horrible approach to player evaluation. The whole point of getting value in baseball is to figure out who is underperforming and overperforming. If you just assume that players will keep doing what they're doing until it changes, then there is no such thing as over- or underperforming...everybody's just at exactly the right level until they change.


Thats why we have no one to replace frenchy...we thought he would come back and projected him as better but uh oh what happened???

Who projected him as better? I sure didn't.

uncblue2332
06-18-2009, 04:47 PM
Every year there are a handful of players who just lose it. In Atkins' case, his line drive percentage fell from 22.1% to 14.4% basically overnight. That only happens to a few players every year. For the vast majority, you can reasonably anticipate what they are going to produce. Keep in mind I'm not just talking about "crappy sabermetric" projection systems like PECOTA and CHONE. I'm just talking about general projections about what kind of performance to expect from a player. Evaluating players is always a mesh of what they are doing plus what you thought they would do. If you lose the projection piece, then you'll be easily fooled by flukes.



On a short-term level, yeah, this is OK, like for deciding who to put in the lineup day-to-day because if a guy gets a hot streak you can always bench him when he goes cold again. But when you're talking long-term like whether to trade or keep players, that's a patently horrible approach to player evaluation. The whole point of getting value in baseball is to figure out who is underperforming and overperforming. If you just assume that players will keep doing what they're doing until it changes, then there is no such thing as over- or underperforming...everybody's just at exactly the right level until they change.



Who projected him as better? I sure didn't.

All I heard in the off-season/pre-season was frenchy is going to bounce back and i was sitting here saying no he wont just wait...i dont know if you were one but a lot of members in the forum said he would

lavell12
06-18-2009, 09:32 PM
I think the Braves need to add either two outfielders or a rightfielder and a secondbasemen. I'm pefectly fine with either Prado or our LF platoon batting eighth.

bravesrule
06-19-2009, 12:02 AM
I think the Braves need to add either two outfielders or a rightfielder and a secondbasemen. I'm pefectly fine with either Prado or our LF platoon batting eighth.

I wouldn't give up on Kelly too easily. he had a very good May and has picked up his struggles in the past, unlike Frenchy.

NBA_Starter
06-19-2009, 12:26 AM
An have a midseason hitting coach change. They brought up there Hitting instructor from AAA and scored 6 runs in his first game.

ATLKoos16
06-19-2009, 01:09 AM
Maybe we should just pay Chipper coaches salary

HCo HERO
06-19-2009, 01:47 AM
Did this really need it's own thread.....again! This could of easily been put under the same thread as the previous saying get rid of TP. Are we going to have the same argument that French went to Jaramillo and the rest go to there Dads. Exactly what you said, it was one game and they scored 6 runs.... I guess since we scored 7 this one day by your theory we already have the best coach.

rtgthree
06-19-2009, 10:01 AM
Venting palooza?

cheerio
06-19-2009, 10:04 AM
lol

AustinTheGreat
06-19-2009, 10:20 AM
chipper would be too busy and couldnt work on his own game.

NBA_Starter
06-20-2009, 01:03 AM
Did this really need it's own thread.....again! This could of easily been put under the same thread as the previous saying get rid of TP. Are we going to have the same argument that French went to Jaramillo and the rest go to there Dads. Exactly what you said, it was one game and they scored 6 runs.... I guess since we scored 7 this one day by your theory we already have the best coach..

I don't think you understand, The Cubs scored 8 runs today so that's 6 runs and 8 runs in two games since the coaching change, before that their offense had been anemic recently.

Also why was my post moved here? It's not venting at all just asking a simple question to the masses.

rtgthree
06-20-2009, 11:39 AM
I don't think you understand, The Cubs scored 8 runs today so that's 6 runs and 8 runs in two games since the coaching change, before that their offense had been anemic recently.

It was not the coaching change in Chicago that caused the offensive outburst. Coaches don't turn teams around overnight; what you're seeing with the Cubbies is just natural variance.


Also why was my post moved here? It's not venting at all just asking a simple question to the masses.

Because we've already had this discussion about Terry Pendleton at extensive length, and frankly we've pretty much exhausted it.

If interested, see here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365584), here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=367828), and here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372586).

If you've got something new to add, feel free to do it, but do it in one of those existing threads.

banditwolf
06-26-2009, 01:16 AM
Why not trade Lowe and KJ or Escobar to Texas for Andrus and Cruz . It would save us money to maybe make another deal for pitcher who would love to come to Atlanta Roy Oswalt .

Jon93405
06-26-2009, 02:41 AM
We'd never sign another free agent without a no trade clause if we moved Lowe in the first year of his new contract.

Saltyfan
06-26-2009, 08:32 AM
A stuggling Lowe and KJ is not going to net us Andrus and Cruz. Not in a million years. Lowe is not preforming like we had hoped. Also, I think with his recent struggles tradeing JV sounds even more ludicrous. I believe the Braves will stay pat for awhile.


P.S. I am down trading Lowe. I never liked the pick-up anyways.

MrJones
06-26-2009, 08:51 AM
We'd never sign another free agent without a no trade clause if we moved Lowe in the first year of his new contract.

Bingo.

wolfman2
06-26-2009, 09:38 AM
yeah Lowe should give the team back some of the money, so we would have the payroll to get a decent hitter. A 4.53 ERA doesn't deserve the cash he is getting

atl_braves_fan
06-26-2009, 10:32 AM
First of all, the Braves can not trade Lowe for a myriad of reasons ... not the least of which is that they would never be able to sign another free agent.

Second, think before you post. Why would a team currently in first place trade two starters that are young, cheap, and outperforming expectations for two starters that are older, expensive, and disappointing on a fourth place team?

Third, why would you want Oswalt? He is not nearly the pitcher he used to be. Why not just keep Lowe - he has not been pitching that poorly until 2 of the last 3 starts. He's had less than 5 bad games out of 16 starts. That is better than Oswalt this year.

ATLKoos16
06-26-2009, 10:53 AM
wow three starts ago anybody who even brought up trading Lowe would have been ridiculed, but he has a tough stretch against AL teams and everyone jumps on him. Its interleague play, once we get back into the regular play, he'll pitch well again.

Saltyfan
06-26-2009, 11:52 AM
wow three starts ago anybody who even brought up trading Lowe would have been ridiculed, but he has a tough stretch against AL teams and everyone jumps on him. Its interleague play, once we get back into the regular play, he'll pitch well again.

I will be honest. I never liked the pick-up. Anytime you pay that kind of money you expect the player to preform at a high level. Lets face the obvious. Out of our starters he has the worst ERA. Is that what you really want out of our "ACE". I know many of you guys throw out ERA but it is still an important stat. He is giving up hits. The sinker just ain't sinking as much as it needs too. Here's to hopeing he turns around his recent misfortunes though b/c he is going to be on this team for awhile and we NEED him to succedd.

nps6724
06-26-2009, 12:20 PM
Lowe has had 2 very poor starts that have really inflated his numbers. He had an ERA of 3.50 if you remove those 2 games. He's allowed 48 earned runs this year and 13 came in those 2 games so he's been very good overall. Both those starts came against AL teams so hopefully he has that out of his system.

maddiesbraves
06-26-2009, 12:48 PM
Lowe has had 2 very poor starts that have really inflated his numbers. He had an ERA of 3.50 if you remove those 2 games. He's allowed 48 earned runs this year and 13 came in those 2 games so he's been very good overall. Both those starts came against AL teams so hopefully he has that out of his system.

Thank you! Damn, two bad starts and folks are ready to throw him under the bus. This THREAD IS STUPID and screams I wear my emotions on my sleeves!

P.S. Who in the hell wants KJ right now? If no one wants Jeff. Why do you think anyone would take KJ?

MrJones
06-26-2009, 01:23 PM
Well, the offense has been showing up, but I think it confused our pitching so badly that they forgot how to pitch !!!!

Maybe JJ, JV, and Tommy H. can steer us back in the right direction. After all, the offense shows up for Tommy.

bravesfan22193
06-26-2009, 08:16 PM
wow take away the new york and orioles game and lowe has been fine this year, besides he generally gets better as the season progresses and the games take on extra meaning. Maybe he's not worth 15 million a season but you gotta spend money to get good pitching, it was either lowe or oliver perez so i ask who would you rather have again?

GoBraves
07-05-2009, 09:17 PM
Its all over or me folks for this season, I have been a braves fan for a long time. This team is so inconsistance its not even funny. You sweep the phillies and drop a series to the Nationals, To the freaking Nationals, the worst team, not only in the US, but in the world(anywhere they play baseball) We are the only team in MLB to not have a hitter with 10 homeruns or more in this season and we are halfway through the season. McLouth had 10 when he joined us. When they said pitching wins championships, the fact that you have to score runs to win was implied in that sentence, but apparently Frank Wren and Co. did not understand that part. We came into the season with an outfield of FailedFouer(Arguably the worst right fielder in the world, once again, not only in US but anywhere they play baseball. Jordan Schaffer, an unproven rookie who was a strikeout machine in the minors and an aging Garrett Anderson. This after getting Zero production from our outfield last year. I think we over corrected our pitching staff, we didn't need KK. that 7 million could've been used to sign dunn and Medlen would do as good or even better than him right now. for two years in a row, lack of power from the outfield has destroyed this season for us. DONT BE SO PROUD TO ONLY BE OUT 3 GAMES THUS FAR, BECAUSE OF ALL THE INJURIES TO THE METS AND WE CANT EVEN SURPASS THEM IN THE STANDING. once they get Reyes, Beltran, Delgado back, we will be nowhere near.

2010 Braves here we come baby, GET RID OF FAILEDCOUER, GET RID OF FAILEDCOUER, PLEASE.... I cannot watch this guy make an out on the first pitch again.

BRAVE KID
07-05-2009, 09:27 PM
and to the venting thread where it belongs.

jbizzie10
07-05-2009, 09:59 PM
im sick of hearing everyone state that they are a braves fan and then jump ship when things arent going the way they want! yeah we shouldnt have lost two out of three to the nationals. but we did sweep the phillies!! we are only 4 back now and wren has said that if we were still in it at the end of july he would look to deal to get us a bat. i personally think wren has done a good job. im not ready to give up on the this team yet! i really like what prado is adding to our lineup now. yeah francour has sucked. but we knew that last year. maybe you should root for the yankees. they always have enough money to buy there way into contention. as for me im not giving up! get us a bat wren! to me it seems that our pitching is set we are just missing one piece.

Bravefan29
07-06-2009, 07:16 AM
I agree I hate fair weathered fans I am a Braves fan till I die!

wcg
07-06-2009, 10:10 AM
its time for Bobby Cox to realize he needs to call it a career and hang it up. I think this might be bobby last season. If that is the case it is time to clean house and start fresh. I would even do the unthinkable and trade chipper if a team out there offers me something worth trading him.

nps6724
07-06-2009, 10:11 AM
Chipper can't be traded without his approval.

wcg
07-06-2009, 10:16 AM
I know chipper can not be traded without his approval but if he knew Bobby Cox would not be back. If the braves could trade him to texas where he lives or to a playoff contender i think he would agree to the trade.

vtgriff09
07-06-2009, 10:32 AM
first off, Rudy Jaramillo is one of the best hitting coaches in the business, if not the best, that's why Frenchy went to him over TP. 2nd, the quote from chipper about Francouer's hitting problem is this, "Frenchy has gone to 100 hitting coaches, and the problem is that he listens to all of them." Pretty much saying that he's always changing his approach. Not only does Francouer have technical flaws in his swing, his biggest problem may be in his approach to hitting. He hits hitters pitches because he doesn't have the patience to take pitches. Pitchers are confident against him because they know they feel like they are pitching ahead on 0-0 counts, they know he'll chase pitches. Swing wise, Frenchy has an uneven swing that doesn't match the angle of bat to the angle of his shoulders. Additionally, he flies his front side open instead of letting the ball get deep, he tries to get everything out front (even the outside pitches). The problem with baseball is that this guy has talent (u don't hit roughly 30 hrs a season w/out talent), but baseball is so mental that one tiny flaw in your swing and mental approach can kill you for weeks, months, or in frenchy's case years....it ends some guys careers....at least he's working to get better....just might be too late

vtgriff09
07-06-2009, 10:33 AM
oopss...i meant to say he hits pitcher's pitches....not hitter's pitches

wcg
07-06-2009, 10:46 AM
take a look around and can you honestly point to one player TP has helped? Mccann when he is struggling goes to his dad and Chipper goes to his dad. I think it is about time to fire TP. If you say a hitting coach does not matter then lets go hire joe blow off the street and pay him minimum wage and use the money we save on a hitter to put in the lineup.

jwn0303
07-06-2009, 10:56 AM
i really wish everyone would just get the bobby cox leaving idea out of their head... no matter how much you want it to happen.. it's not going to.. period

he just recently said in an interview something along the lines of him wanting to stick around for a few more years at least.. so unless something drastically changes in his thinking.. he'll be here for a while

uncblue2332
07-06-2009, 11:03 AM
i really wish everyone would just get the bobby cox leaving idea out of their head... no matter how much you want it to happen.. it's not going to.. period

he just recently said in an interview something along the lines of him wanting to stick around for a few more years at least.. so unless something drastically changes in his thinking.. he'll be here for a while

I would love to see a link to that quote because he said he was going to retire in 2008 and then signed a 1 year extension. I really truly believe since his contract is up this year he wont be back. Like Ive been saying for 2-3 months now Bobby has 2 options at season's end. He either retires or the braves dont extend him, force him into retirement quitely or let him go to another team. Unless we make the playoffs (doubtful) and make a nice run to the NLCS or WS then Bobby is gone

wcg
07-06-2009, 01:59 PM
I turlly belvie Bobby Cox did say he would manage for many more years. Bobby is just not the type of person that would annouce that he is retiring at season end. Bobby is just not that type of person that would want a farewell tour for himself. However it should be remembered every year late in the season Bobby always says he will have to talk to his wife and see what his family wants to do as far as career goes.

uncblue2332
07-06-2009, 02:09 PM
I turlly belvie Bobby Cox did say he would manage for many more years. Bobby is just not the type of person that would annouce that he is retiring at season end. Bobby is just not that type of person that would want a farewell tour for himself. However it should be remembered every year late in the season Bobby always says he will have to talk to his wife and see what his family wants to do as far as career goes.

wow unlike your sheer "I truly believe" philosophy I have a link that is straight from Bobby's mouth about retirement http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/sportscolumns/entries/2007/03/03/cox_says_hell_r.html

In March of 2007 he said he would reire after next season then he signed a 1 year deal at the end. I believe he signed that 1 year for a reason he didnt want to do it anymore. He wanted 1 more crack at the playoffs but it isnt going to happen so he will retire and the braves will have a new manager next year.

KingsFiend
07-06-2009, 10:57 PM
Its all over or me folks for this season, I have been a braves fan for a long time. This team is so inconsistance its not even funny. You sweep the phillies and drop a series to the Nationals, To the freaking Nationals, the worst team, not only in the US, but in the world(anywhere they play baseball) We are the only team in MLB to not have a hitter with 10 homeruns or more in this season and we are halfway through the season. McLouth had 10 when he joined us. When they said pitching wins championships, the fact that you have to score runs to win was implied in that sentence, but apparently Frank Wren and Co. did not understand that part. We came into the season with an outfield of FailedFouer(Arguably the worst right fielder in the world, once again, not only in US but anywhere they play baseball. Jordan Schaffer, an unproven rookie who was a strikeout machine in the minors and an aging Garrett Anderson. This after getting Zero production from our outfield last year. I think we over corrected our pitching staff, we didn't need KK. that 7 million could've been used to sign dunn and Medlen would do as good or even better than him right now. for two years in a row, lack of power from the outfield has destroyed this season for us. DONT BE SO PROUD TO ONLY BE OUT 3 GAMES THUS FAR, BECAUSE OF ALL THE INJURIES TO THE METS AND WE CANT EVEN SURPASS THEM IN THE STANDING. once they get Reyes, Beltran, Delgado back, we will be nowhere near.

2010 Braves here we come baby, GET RID OF FAILEDCOUER, GET RID OF FAILEDCOUER, PLEASE.... I cannot watch this guy make an out on the first pitch again.

Dude, seriously. That quote right there just proves your an idiot who doesn't know a thing about baseball. His defensive skills alone make him a great outfielder, he is just struggeling mighitly at the plate right now, and it may very well be time we explored other options in right, but I hope he can right the ship.
And I got an idea for you that will hopefully make you happy. Do like most of america not living in Boston that doesn't know much about baseball and just be a Red Sox fan. That way you can be happy most of the time and not really worry about players because Boston has the money to pay them. So please do that for us because doing that will help us weed out the "fair weather" Braves fans like you.:crazy:

uncblue2332
07-07-2009, 10:13 AM
Dude, seriously. That quote right there just proves your an idiot who doesn't know a thing about baseball. His defensive skills alone make him a great outfielder, he is just struggeling mighitly at the plate right now, and it may very well be time we explored other options in right, but I hope he can right the ship.
And I got an idea for you that will hopefully make you happy. Do like most of america not living in Boston that doesn't know much about baseball and just be a Red Sox fan. That way you can be happy most of the time and not really worry about players because Boston has the money to pay them. So please do that for us because doing that will help us weed out the "fair weather" Braves fans like you.:crazy:

I hate when people start to get real and show the reasons how the braves arent going to make the playoffs and they do have a crappy offense and when we say it all the sudden we arent true fans?? True fans acknowledge that the offense sucks that we wont make the playoffs and tell the "Real Fans" whats wrong. Blindly cheering for a team is not a real fan. If you want to call me a fair weather fan because I see reality and not blindly say the braves are in the playoffs for sure then do it but just know you make no sense. I am not saying our offseason moves were bad. I like the GA/Diaz platoon it is really working right now. I really like we got KK and JV. We had no idea medlen was going to be this good and Hanson wasnt ready at the start of the year. I would rather have pitching depth than the lack their of we have had in the recent past but the offense is struggling too much to make us contenders.

Letrinoso
07-07-2009, 01:51 PM
I see the Frenchy's Course comming...

Trade Lowe and KJ

Saltyfan
07-07-2009, 02:12 PM
How horrible would it be if Frenchy was a necessary evil for us to win!!!!

KingsFiend
07-07-2009, 04:08 PM
I hate when people start to get real and show the reasons how the braves arent going to make the playoffs and they do have a crappy offense and when we say it all the sudden we arent true fans?? True fans acknowledge that the offense sucks that we wont make the playoffs and tell the "Real Fans" whats wrong. Blindly cheering for a team is not a real fan. If you want to call me a fair weather fan because I see reality and not blindly say the braves are in the playoffs for sure then do it but just know you make no sense. I am not saying our offseason moves were bad. I like the GA/Diaz platoon it is really working right now. I really like we got KK and JV. We had no idea medlen was going to be this good and Hanson wasnt ready at the start of the year. I would rather have pitching depth than the lack their of we have had in the recent past but the offense is struggling too much to make us contenders.

Dude, I wasn't refering to you. That's what forums are for is to talk about our struggels, and what we should do to fix them. If you go back and look at who I quoted and what they said, you will see the difference. No one is blindly following the Braves over here. I know we have things that need to be fixed, and I don't have a problem with the people that say so.
What I do have a problem with are the people, like the guy I quoted, who want to jump ship, throw their hands up and say "I quit", but if we were to win a few games in a row would be right back in the discussion.
In other words, if your a Braves fan and you have a problem with the team, say it, I'm cool with that. If you want to give up on the team and quit, then go find another team to cheer for, don't be back here.

Thibs34
07-10-2009, 02:00 AM
I just watched the highlights to the phillies game and saw both Utley and Werth hit their 20th hrs. With that they now have 4 guys with at least 20 hrs:Utley, Werth, Howard, and Ibanez. We have only one guy with more than 10 and that is McClouth who we had to trade for. This bugged me a bit so I thought I would share.

HCo HERO
07-10-2009, 11:16 AM
Is anyonelse frustrated with Chipper as I am. I know it's not his fault that he "tweeked" whatever muscle they're saying it is this month. But having Frank Wren let it be known he is monitoring the club to decide wether to be buyers or sellers. In a time where every win or loss brings Wren closer to make a decision. Javier Vazquez, Yunel, and others careers could be changed forever in the coming weeks but our "best player" has some tightness. Just venting, I know it's not all his fault but if you do the whole runs over replacment Im sure It is significant enough to validate my point.

Brave4life
07-10-2009, 11:36 AM
Is anyonelse frustrated with Chipper as I am. I know it's not his fault that he "tweeked" whatever muscle they're saying it is this month. But having Frank Wren let it be known he is monitoring the club to decide wether to be buyers or sellers. In a time where every win or loss brings Wren closer to make a decision. Javier Vazquez, Yunel, and others careers could be changed forever in the coming weeks but our "best player" has some tightness. Just venting, I know it's not all his fault but if you do the whole runs over replacment Im sure It is significant enough to validate my point.

If we were to be sellers this is the players we would not part with

untouchables
Yunel Escobar
Tommy Hanson
Brian McCann
Jair Jurrjens
Chipper Jones(he is finishing his career as a brave)
Jason Heyward
Freddie Freeman
Cody Johnson
Kris Medlen(he has the stuff was just brought up too fast)
Nate Mclouth

wolfman2
07-10-2009, 11:38 AM
I just watched the highlights to the phillies game and saw both Utley and Werth hit their 20th hrs. With that they now have 4 guys with at least 20 hrs:Utley, Werth, Howard, and Ibanez. We have only one guy with more than 10 and that is McClouth who we had to trade for. This bugged me a bit so I thought I would share.

True they do have 4 guys with 20 homers, but Werth has hit like 12 or 13 in that ballpark. If he were playing in Atlanta, he would probably have 8. Utley has 11 in that park, I know last night's was an insider, but I think that their homerun numbers are bloated because of where they play.

nps6724
07-10-2009, 11:44 AM
If we were to be sellers this is the players we would not part with

untouchables
Yunel Escobar
Tommy Hanson
Brian McCann
Jair Jurrjens
Chipper Jones(he is finishing his career as a brave)
Jason Heyward
Freddie Freeman
Cody Johnson
Kris Medlen(he has the stuff was just brought up too fast)
Nate Mclouth

I'd remove Cody and replace him with Schafer. Cody's going to have to improve that SO rate before I'd call him untouchable.

Thibs34
07-10-2009, 12:05 PM
True they do have 4 guys with 20 homers, but Werth has hit like 12 or 13 in that ballpark. If he were playing in Atlanta, he would probably have 8. Utley has 11 in that park, I know last night's was an insider, but I think that their homerun numbers are bloated because of where they play.


so your saying that if werth was playing here, he would have hit none at home in our ballpark? He has 8 on the road so your saying that none of his HRs in philly would have went out had he been hitting in our park. Little biased don't ya think?

wolfman2
07-10-2009, 01:03 PM
so your saying that if werth was playing here, he would have hit none at home in our ballpark? He has 8 on the road so your saying that none of his HRs in philly would have went out had he been hitting in our park. Little biased don't ya think?

I mean what I mean. I see a lot of Phillies game on tv, I see the distance of Werth homeruns. 14 of his 20 home runs were at Philly, Toronto and the Yankees' stadiums. According to http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?sort=HRFactor&season=2009
they ranks 1st, 8th and 9th in homeruns. Atlanta has played in Philly twice, but I don't believe he would be in double digits for homeruns if he were playing here.

ANGRY MAN
07-14-2009, 04:38 AM
OK, :pity:

God I was hoping we'd get to .500 Sunday, and just keep pace with the rest of our stinking division. But noooooo, I got to see the Braves lose 2 of 4 at Coors field this past weekend. I got to see Cox, bloody awful as ever, giving the Rockies game 4 by playing unknowns in the late innings out of the bullpen, and keeping weak lineups on the field the entire series. It doesn't ever seem like he can put all our best players on the field on one day. I'm tired of this equal opportunity horsesh**. Whatever happened to, you have to earn your spot to play?

It's time for a Marlins like firesale.

This team is going nowhere, especially with a manager as senile and close to death's doorstep as Bobby Cox. Pendleton isn't the light at the end of this hellhole either. We need young, firey management that want to be given a chance to help a team succeed. We need to auction off our veteran's for young, proven, MLB talent (like Dunn, Willingham, Fielder, Philips, Figgins) while we can, while other teams are looking for that essential piece to go far in the playoffs.

PR nightmare or not, it's time to get rid of Lowe and believe it or not,Chipper Jones, Kawakami and Vasquez, Anderson and Diaz, Church and KJ, Kotchman Gonzo, and Hudson.

The core we should keep: Jair, Hanson, Medlen, McCann, Prado, McLouth, Soriano.

We need to strike while the iron is hot. All the great pitchers of yester-year are gone (Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux), and what did we get to show for their departures? Chipper is coming to the end of his career, much like Helton here in CO, and I think it's time the Braves look to start anew like in 1990, and bring in some young talent to build our future. Give up on this season. It is a lost cause and not worth fighting for, especially with Bobby at the helm. I know this is a bleak picture/scenario, but at this point, it is really our best option.

T. Woods
07-14-2009, 08:02 AM
OK, :pity:

God I was hoping we'd get to .500 Sunday, and just keep pace with the rest of our stinking division. But noooooo, I got to see the Braves lose 2 of 4 at Coors field this past weekend. I got to see Cox, bloody awful as ever, giving the Rockies game 4 by playing unknowns in the late innings out of the bullpen, and keeping weak lineups on the field the entire series. It doesn't ever seem like he can put all our best players on the field on one day. I'm tired of this equal opportunity horsesh**. Whatever happened to, you have to earn your spot to play?

It's time for a Marlins like firesale.

This team is going nowhere, especially with a manager as senile and close to death's doorstep as Bobby Cox. Pendleton isn't the light at the end of this hellhole either. We need young, firey management that want to be given a chance to help a team succeed. We need to auction off our veteran's for young, proven, MLB talent (like Dunn, Willingham, Fielder, Philips, Figgins) while we can, while other teams are looking for that essential piece to go far in the playoffs.

PR nightmare or not, it's time to get rid of Lowe and believe it or not,Chipper Jones, Kawakami and Vasquez, Anderson and Diaz, Church and KJ, Kotchman Gonzo, and Hudson.

The core we should keep: Jair, Hanson, Medlen, McCann, Prado, McLouth, Soriano.

We need to strike while the iron is hot. All the great pitchers of yester-year are gone (Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux), and what did we get to show for their departures? Chipper is coming to the end of his career, much like Helton here in CO, and I think it's time the Braves look to start anew like in 1990, and bring in some young talent to build our future. Give up on this season. It is a lost cause and not worth fighting for, especially with Bobby at the helm. I know this is a bleak picture/scenario, but at this point, it is really our best option.

I disagree. Wasn't it 1991 when we were 10 or so games back at the break and came back and beat the dodgers by 1 game. Why can't this team come back from 6 back? I'm not saying we don't need to make some moves but please not a firesale. Right now we have 1 of the best pitching staffs in the league, and hopefully it's about to get better with Hudson coming back. That means we will have 6 or 7 starters and maybe little fuel to get a trade started for some hitting or Bullpen help.
So I again I disagree with wanting to quit half way through and get rid of everybody

jwn0303
07-14-2009, 08:22 AM
OK, :pity:

God I was hoping we'd get to .500 Sunday, and just keep pace with the rest of our stinking division. But noooooo, I got to see the Braves lose 2 of 4 at Coors field this past weekend. I got to see Cox, bloody awful as ever, giving the Rockies game 4 by playing unknowns in the late innings out of the bullpen, and keeping weak lineups on the field the entire series. It doesn't ever seem like he can put all our best players on the field on one day. I'm tired of this equal opportunity horsesh**. Whatever happened to, you have to earn your spot to play?

It's time for a Marlins like firesale.

This team is going nowhere, especially with a manager as senile and close to death's doorstep as Bobby Cox. Pendleton isn't the light at the end of this hellhole either. We need young, firey management that want to be given a chance to help a team succeed. We need to auction off our veteran's for young, proven, MLB talent (like Dunn, Willingham, Fielder, Philips, Figgins) while we can, while other teams are looking for that essential piece to go far in the playoffs.

PR nightmare or not, it's time to get rid of Lowe and believe it or not,Chipper Jones, Kawakami and Vasquez, Anderson and Diaz, Church and KJ, Kotchman Gonzo, and Hudson.

The core we should keep: Jair, Hanson, Medlen, McCann, Prado, McLouth, Soriano.

We need to strike while the iron is hot. All the great pitchers of yester-year are gone (Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux), and what did we get to show for their departures? Chipper is coming to the end of his career, much like Helton here in CO, and I think it's time the Braves look to start anew like in 1990, and bring in some young talent to build our future. Give up on this season. It is a lost cause and not worth fighting for, especially with Bobby at the helm. I know this is a bleak picture/scenario, but at this point, it is really our best option.

one question.. had we won the game on sunday.. you would not have felt this way?

that's the way you made it seem

people like you make me laugh.. one lost game.. and you want to have a "firesale"

this is just an ignorant vent.. and in no way should happen.. nor will it happen

AutoMaddux
07-14-2009, 08:40 AM
PR nightmare or not, it's time to get rid of Lowe and believe it or not,Chipper Jones, Kawakami and Vasquez, Anderson and Diaz, Church and KJ, Kotchman Gonzo, and Hudson.

So you think by trading these veterans, we will get players like Prince Fielder, Brandon Philips, and Chone Figgins. Those players are in penant races right now. Why would their teams trade their best players for some washed up veterans?! Our veterans also would not be enough to lure guys like Dunn and Willingham away from their teams. Those teams are not good and they would be looking for a long term investment of young players. We would have to give away a number of the guys that you said we needed to keep to get any of these players. The only players that would bring a substantial return would be Vasquez and Chipper, and maybe Hudson. But they would not get us any of the guys you mentioned. This isn't MLB on XBOX.

AutoMaddux
07-14-2009, 08:45 AM
I actually agree with you that I do not believe we will again with Bobby at the helm. Our players were good enough in the 90s to win even with Bobby's mistakes as a game manager, but we don't have the players to overcome his mental gaffes. Bobby's managing is why we always sucked in the playoffs. We were playing teams who had players just as good as ours. So when you're playing teams that have equal talent, it comes down to managing the game, which is something Bobby is terrible at.

So, I agree with your assessment of Bobby. You're just not being realistic with the return you think we can get for the players we don't want. If we don't want them, why would anyone else? And why would they send us their best players for players we no longer want?

atl_braves_fan
07-14-2009, 10:04 AM
OK, :pity:

God I was hoping we'd get to .500 Sunday, and just keep pace with the rest of our stinking division. But noooooo, I got to see the Braves lose 2 of 4 at Coors field this past weekend. I got to see Cox, bloody awful as ever, giving the Rockies game 4 by playing unknowns in the late innings out of the bullpen, and keeping weak lineups on the field the entire series. It doesn't ever seem like he can put all our best players on the field on one day. I'm tired of this equal opportunity horsesh**. Whatever happened to, you have to earn your spot to play?

It's time for a Marlins like firesale.

This team is going nowhere, especially with a manager as senile and close to death's doorstep as Bobby Cox. Pendleton isn't the light at the end of this hellhole either. We need young, firey management that want to be given a chance to help a team succeed. We need to auction off our veteran's for young, proven, MLB talent (like Dunn, Willingham, Fielder, Philips, Figgins) while we can, while other teams are looking for that essential piece to go far in the playoffs.

PR nightmare or not, it's time to get rid of Lowe and believe it or not,Chipper Jones, Kawakami and Vasquez, Anderson and Diaz, Church and KJ, Kotchman Gonzo, and Hudson.

The core we should keep: Jair, Hanson, Medlen, McCann, Prado, McLouth, Soriano.

We need to strike while the iron is hot. All the great pitchers of yester-year are gone (Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux), and what did we get to show for their departures? Chipper is coming to the end of his career, much like Helton here in CO, and I think it's time the Braves look to start anew like in 1990, and bring in some young talent to build our future. Give up on this season. It is a lost cause and not worth fighting for, especially with Bobby at the helm. I know this is a bleak picture/scenario, but at this point, it is really our best option.


As has been said, the Nationals and Reds wouldn't want our veterans -- they would do them no good. Chone Figgins is in a penant race and Prince Fielder is more valuable than any player we have on our roster.

If you ever want to sell a ticket again, you can't trade Chipper Jones and if you ever sign a free agent again, you can't trade Derek Lowe or Kenshin Kawakami. Do you realize what would happen to a team that was known as the place that trades recently signed free agents and the face of the franchise? No one would ever play here without the Braves overpaying and giving them a full no-trade clause. For a team that already has budget concerns, that is actually probably your worst idea (and you have some pretty bad ones in your rant).

As for your young core to keep, Soriano is a free agent and one of the most valuable trade options we would have. I am in no way advocating such a trade, but if we were to have a "firesale," why on earth would we keep a closer that is going to be a free agent in a couple months and will likely demand more money than we are willing to pay?

By the way, splitting with the Rockies on the road (a team 4 games ahead of us in the standings) is pretty good. Yes, the Braves could have won all 4, but teams that are around .500 struggle in close games - that is why they are around .500. You can't blame Bobby Cox for that. This isn't a video game, he can't pitch the best three bullpen guys in every game - and when he tries to do that (see the last National's series), people ***** that he is overworking them. What is good enough for you people?

utahjazzno12fan
07-14-2009, 11:44 AM
The only one who didn't pitch in the entire game out of the pen was Soriano. We would have used him had we gotten a lead, I am sure. Okay... If Soriano keeps the game knotted up and we get a run in the top of the tenth, we have Valdez in a save situation... We got beat because the bullpen lost it. With a big lead, if a pitcher gives something up, you should take him out to get a favorable matchup. When that does not work, as it did not, you are screwed.

utahjazzno12fan
07-14-2009, 11:45 AM
Plus, the bullpen had been eaten up the past few games. You were not going to see multiple innings from Moylan, especially coming off surgery.

styxlover
07-14-2009, 12:44 PM
This "Fire Sale" idea is the most ludicrous thing that I ever heard. Why would you want to trade your face of the team plus all of your veteran talent for nothing because that is what you would end up with.

ANGRY MAN
07-14-2009, 09:22 PM
I'm just saying, the Marlins did it, twice, and won the WS, twice. Maybe we can learn a thing or two from that. If we freed up the Salary from Lowe, Hudson, Chipper and Vasquez, (50-55 million on 4 guys) we could conceivably gain enough young, affordable talent to make an impact over the next 4-5 years. Thinking long term, I think this makes the most sense. Is it realistic to say we are really one bat away from winning the division, when the moron running the show in the dugout probably wouldn't even play him even close to every night (Equal Opportunist Bobby)? The decision making skills of Cox are pathetic these days. We can't be expected to win without new management, so I think a giant shakeup is in order. Also, maybe then we could put Bobby out to pasture, or he'll just wander off there himself, and we can then bring in new management. Maybe it was a bit far fetched to shoot for Fielder and Figgins as yes, they are in pennant races I'll give you that, but I don't think Dunn and/or Willingham would be too far fetched. I'm sure we could go through teams and find other possibilities too.

bravesfan22193
07-15-2009, 12:28 AM
The Marlins did it because they had to, we don't have to. Also I believe Loria is responsible for the firesales and he wasn't owner for the first championship and im not sure about the second. Just because it worked for the Marlins doesn't mean we should do it, i mean the yankees spend 400 million in an offseason but we're not following that plan. Also as far as young players, Figgins is 32 hardly a young player. You trade Chipper and you lose most of the fan base and try extending mccann, jurrjens, hanson, etc after that. Try signing a big name FA after trading Lowe in Year 1 of a big deal. You can get away with dealing Vazquez but the other guys are ridiculous proposals

Jon93405
07-15-2009, 12:45 AM
If we're more than 6 or 7 games back at the deadline, dealing Vazquez, Soriano and Gonzo for prospects or young MLB talent would put us in a spot to have a great future.

bravesfan22193
07-15-2009, 01:13 AM
I don't get why everybody wants to eagerly trade Soriano and Gonzalez. I don't see anybody offering a package equivalent to two draft picks (they are type A locks) and I don't think either will accept arbitration considering the RP market is pretty bare in FA for the off-season

bravesrule
07-15-2009, 06:28 PM
If we're more than 6 or 7 games back at the deadline, dealing Vazquez, Soriano and Gonzo for prospects or young MLB talent would put us in a spot to have a great future.

Agreed. Though I would like to keep Sori and sign him long term if possible.

AtlantaBraves#1
07-16-2009, 07:32 AM
This makes me regret why we kept Francoeur and not trade for Zack Greinke. :(

IF that deal was completed.............we wouldn't go for Lowe and could've had another GOOD bat also.

the OF would've been McLouth, Schafer, and Anderson on Opening Day

The Rotation WOULD'VE been Greinke, Jurrjens, Vazquez, Kawakami, and Jo Jo Reyes on Opening Day

Gosh, it makes me made so bad................but what can you do now? :cry:

nps6724
07-16-2009, 07:54 AM
This was never a possibility, just a baseless rumor. How many more times will this need to be said?

jwn0303
07-16-2009, 07:56 AM
This was never a possibility, just a baseless rumor. How many more times will this need to be said?

this

littleknighty
07-17-2009, 07:32 AM
Time to vent, if the Phillies keep winning and go get Doc Halladay no matter what we do it may not be enough. With Ibanez back and Rollins playing better the Phils are a better team. I just hate winning last night and not gaining any ground. We just need to get back to 500 tonight.

wolfman2
07-17-2009, 09:44 AM
Time to vent, if the Phillies keep winning and go get Doc Halladay no matter what we do it may not be enough. With Ibanez back and Rollins playing better the Phils are a better team. I just hate winning last night and not gaining any ground. We just need to get back to 500 tonight.
Hopefully the Blue Jays insist on Vernon Wells for any Halladay package, that would mean the Phillies would not trade for him. I really think that Halladay won't get traded this year.

eaglesalltheway
07-23-2009, 06:15 PM
because soriano is really the only good pitcher in the bullpen. the back of our lineup doesnt do anything and our bench is not good at all

Lesson
07-23-2009, 06:39 PM
Wait, are you even a Braves fan? Gonzo has done good, EOF has done wonders, Moylan is finally coming together and his ERA even shows it, Medlen eats innings. So whats so bad about it?

autigers5777
07-23-2009, 06:44 PM
Fair weather fan

Zaunnie
07-23-2009, 06:45 PM
his name is "eaglesalltheway" :eyebrow:

flea
07-23-2009, 06:47 PM
The bench is among the best in the majors, who knows why this guy decided to post his "insight" here.

jwn0303
07-23-2009, 06:56 PM
because soriano is really the only good pitcher in the bullpen. the back of our lineup doesnt do anything and our bench is not good at all

lmao.. one bad game and we suck again.. go back to phily

eaglesalltheway
07-23-2009, 08:01 PM
lmao.. one bad game and we suck again.. go back to phily

actually im a braves fan and eagles fan and its just not one game its all season

jwn0303
07-23-2009, 08:09 PM
actually im a braves fan and eagles fan and its just not one game its all season

is it all season? are you sure.. i believe you're just an irrational person.. keep your ignorant rants to yourself

ATLKoos16
07-23-2009, 08:29 PM
actually im a braves fan and eagles fan and its just not one game its all season

Haha all season, thats pretty funny. Gonzo has been a little shaky lately but has been pretty good all season. Moylan started off a little rusty but has been lights out most of the time. EOF has been very good. Medlen has come in and ate innings very effectively. They have one game in which they give up a couple and you claim they're the reason the Braves arent gonna make the playoffs

NBA_Starter
07-23-2009, 08:31 PM
Wow!:rolleyes:

bchevron
08-14-2009, 02:03 PM
I have noticed over the last couple of years the braves are not really targeting any big name players to get us back to the playoffs where we belong. It seems the FO is set on bringing in average players and trying to compete with them, while the Phillies only get stronger every year.:smoking:

jwn0303
08-14-2009, 02:07 PM
I have noticed over the last couple of years the braves are not really targeting any big name players to get us back to the playoffs where we belong. It seems the FO is set on bringing in average players and trying to compete with them, while the Phillies only get stronger every year.:smoking:

There needs to be a post limit before you can make a thread....

bchevron
08-14-2009, 02:25 PM
hey im new to the site how do you make a post limit?

redwhiteandblue
08-14-2009, 03:15 PM
You just need to contribute by posting in threads such as the one above this. Once your posts total gets up to a certain amount you can make a sig, start threads etc... Not sure what the number for starting a thread is, making a sig is 100 so it might be that.

bchevron
08-14-2009, 04:25 PM
Rebuilding mode is not an option. I think we have the make up to be a playoff team this year. We have the pitching, the pen is alittle above average, our defense is solid and our hitting and run production is greatly improving. We just need to add that big bat to our line up. We have been lacking the power bat for a long time now.

jwn0303
08-14-2009, 04:31 PM
Rebuilding mode is not an option. I think we have the make up to be a playoff team this year. We have the pitching, the pen is alittle above average, our defense is solid and our hitting and run production is greatly improving. We just need to add that big bat to our line up. We have been lacking the power bat for a long time now.

where do you suggest we find this big bat you speak of? walmart?

bchevron
08-18-2009, 07:22 PM
I'm tired of the mediocre players we sign, in hopes they actually do something good for this team. Open the purse strings alittle and get a star player in here to help our boys out. Chipper can't carry this team anymore by himself, he needs some help. We have some pieces in place, but we need real legitimate players

AutoMaddux
08-18-2009, 07:43 PM
I guess we can just print our own money to sign these players. Or maybe they would accept Monopoly money. You can't just sign anyone you want unless you are loaded with money like the Yankees and Red Sox, which we aren't. Its not that we don't want to spend money, its that we don't have the money to spend.

hawksd911
08-18-2009, 07:47 PM
we have been doing great lately.... we shud be fine with just getting ok players.

Jon93405
08-18-2009, 08:32 PM
Should be called, "The official waste of time thread."

devildogdco
08-18-2009, 10:01 PM
Waste....:offtopic::sleep::violin: Please lets just take what we got and lets go win one game at a time.

lavell12
08-18-2009, 10:24 PM
I think the Braves should place Derek Lowe on the waiver wire and see if anyone claims him. If anyone does claim him I'd ask for a mild prospect and allow them to take him off our hands. Its not b/c he is bad its b/c his contract is insane and he will only get and less worth his salary every season. There really is no harm in doing it, I think his two former teams the Red Sox and Dodgers might bit b/c neither of them spent much this offseason and could use starting pitching. We can plug in Hudson and not lose much if any and save a lot of $$.

hawksd911
08-18-2009, 10:58 PM
Stop with these damn threads!!!!! First they wouldnt do this unless we were clearly that we wont make the playoffs because if we put him on waiver its not like hes not going to be unhappy, it could kill the chemistry.... Also we wouldnt do this until the offseason anyway because like you said, the contract...

Thibs34
08-18-2009, 11:10 PM
This is rediculous! You are NOT going to win over any players(current or future Braves) if you treat them as you suggest. We would never sign a big name free agent again. Get real!

Vinny642
08-18-2009, 11:25 PM
Im mad as **** but they brought their bats. Gotta win tomorrow.

Bustersballs
08-19-2009, 01:48 AM
i think players sign with any team whom ever pays most. they dont care what the team does with other players. but i dont think we should waiver wire lowe

atl_braves_fan
08-19-2009, 10:30 AM
^^ No way. A player is not going to sign with Atlanta for a lot of money if they think that they could end up in Pittsburgh or KC before even one season is up. If the Braves did that to Lowe, they could sign big name players, but only if they gave them a full no trade clause.

By the way, if players don't care where they play, why did the union bargain for the 10 & 5 rule for trading veterans? Why would anyone have a no trade clause? It is clear that players want to have some control over where they play - if the Braves take that away, they would have a very difficult time signing players.

wolfman2
08-19-2009, 11:41 AM
^^ No way. A player is not going to sign with Atlanta for a lot of money if they think that they could end up in Pittsburgh or KC before even one season is up. If the Braves did that to Lowe, they could sign big name players, but only if they gave them a full no trade clause.

By the way, if players don't care where they play, why did the union bargain for the 10 & 5 rule for trading veterans? Why would anyone have a no trade clause? It is clear that players want to have some control over where they play - if the Braves take that away, they would have a very difficult time signing players.

The union did bargain, but take A-Roid for example. He only signed with the Rangers back then because of how much they were offering him. He didn't care for the team.

bchevron
08-19-2009, 12:11 PM
Here is an idea, BRING IN A STAR PLAYER TO HELP OUT THE TEAM. I'm tired of these average at best players we bring in, in hopes of them having a fluke good season for us. We need some big bats in here that are going to scare opposing pitchers. F.O. open up the purse strings and spend some money here, lock up some quality players for three to four year deals. Yes i'm all for promoting from within, but so far we are 50/50 are our young talent being mlb ready. We should be bringing these young guys up and at best being a platoon player. Not throwing them to the wolves and watching the fail only to have their confidence shot to sh--. And if the big bats aren't available lets get some speed in the lineup.

nps6724
08-19-2009, 12:13 PM
Gotta have money for the big bats, which means fans have to go support the team.

Bustersballs
08-19-2009, 01:59 PM
^^ No way. A player is not going to sign with Atlanta for a lot of money if they think that they could end up in Pittsburgh or KC before even one season is up. If the Braves did that to Lowe, they could sign big name players, but only if they gave them a full no trade clause.

By the way, if players don't care where they play, why did the union bargain for the 10 & 5 rule for trading veterans? Why would anyone have a no trade clause? It is clear that players want to have some control over where they play - if the Braves take that away, they would have a very difficult time signing players.

dunn, arod with rangers, lowe with the braves (cmon he sign with us cause we over paid not cause he wanted to come here so bad) pretty much anyone (a good player not the ones noone wants) who signs with washington, pirates, seattle. goes for all sports. obviously there are players who want to win and will sign with teams that offer good amount of money and also is a winning fran, but most players want the money 1st then the ring.
.

i do think it would be harder to sign players but if u throw enough money at them they will take it.
other teams have traded players after just one season and they seem to have no after effect. and washinton was shopping dunn and its his 1st year there. if a team was to trade players away after 1 season often then it would be an issue but once in a 100 years its no big deal. if u suck u gotta go.
i dont want to trade lowe by the way

atl_braves_fan
08-19-2009, 02:33 PM
i do think it would be harder to sign players but if u throw enough money at them they will take it.
other teams have traded players after just one season and they seem to have no after effect. and washinton was shopping dunn and its his 1st year there. if a team was to trade players away after 1 season often then it would be an issue but once in a 100 years its no big deal. if u suck u gotta go.
i dont want to trade lowe by the way

Even if I concede that players don't care where they play (which I don't), how is being forced to overpay players any better of a result than being forced to give full no-trade clauses? Also, are you really using Washington as the franchise that the Braves should take pointers from? They are going on their third GM this year and are universally accepted as the worst run franchise in baseball. Arod is kind of a bad example too, because his contract with the Rangers had a no-trade clause - he evidently thought that controlling where he played was an issue as well.

I know that you are not the one who advocated this, but the idea to waive or trade Lowe is a stupid idea for a number of reasons. This is only one.

atl_braves_fan
08-19-2009, 02:35 PM
The union did bargain, but take A-Roid for example. He only signed with the Rangers back then because of how much they were offering him. He didn't care for the team.

1. How do you know that?

2. That contract had a no-trade clause, so apparently he thought that was an issue worth negotiating for.

CrippledRam
08-19-2009, 04:16 PM
Lowe was 5-0 in his last 5 decisions before last night. You guys are nuts.

Bustersballs
08-19-2009, 05:33 PM
Even if I concede that players don't care where they play (which I don't), how is being forced to overpay players any better of a result than being forced to give full no-trade clauses? Also, are you really using Washington as the franchise that the Braves should take pointers from? They are going on their third GM this year and are universally accepted as the worst run franchise in baseball. Arod is kind of a bad example too, because his contract with the Rangers had a no-trade clause - he evidently thought that controlling where he played was an issue as well.

I know that you are not the one who advocated this, but the idea to waive or trade Lowe is a stupid idea for a number of reasons. This is only one.

ur are taking my comment way out of purportion. what im saying is simple
there are alot of players who go to teams for more money than for a chance to win. you can sign alot of them just by throwing as much money as possible even if they might not like some of the things the fran. has done before. I DONT want the braves to place players on waiver just cause he is having a bad stretch or game. But i dont think it is that big of a deal if it happens once. and why would you say im using wshinton as a pointer for braves? i said dunn signed there as an example of players going somewhere that sucks for money. i barely disagree with u about this topic so dont take my comment out of context and trying argue about it

atl_braves_fan
08-19-2009, 06:57 PM
ur are taking my comment way out of purportion. what im saying is simple
there are alot of players who go to teams for more money than for a chance to win. you can sign alot of them just by throwing as much money as possible even if they might not like some of the things the fran. has done before. I DONT want the braves to place players on waiver just cause he is having a bad stretch or game. But i dont think it is that big of a deal if it happens once. and why would you say im using wshinton as a pointer for braves? i said dunn signed there as an example of players going somewhere that sucks for money. i barely disagree with u about this topic so dont take my comment out of context and trying argue about it

I am not trying to argue about soemthing here, I just disagree with you. The knee-jerk proposal to waive or trade Lowe in the first year of a 4 year deal would be mistreating a player. If you mistreat players (even just once), you are going to have a hard time signing new ones (even if you throw a lot of money at them - which the Braves don't have anyway).

By the way, this wouldn't just be once - remember the unwarranted negative press the Braves got about the Tom Glavine debacle?

Finally, I am not trying to argue semantics here, but you did cite Washington and Dunn as an example of a team that signed someone and shopped him in the first year of a multi-year contract (i.e. front office activity not player activity). Go back and re-read the second paragraph of your own post ... I didn't take that out of context; you used a poor example.

Bustersballs
08-20-2009, 01:40 AM
yes that was an example of something not a pointer for the braves to follow. you added the whole "pointer" part. why in the world would i want anyone to follow washington? my main point in bringing up the washington dunn was that everyone knows what a ****** horribly run club that is and yet dunn, a good player wanted by other teams, chose them cause they offered him the most money like many other player past and present.
ur titled to ur opinion that u cant get away with doing **** like what we are discussing about and i say that it happens sometimes but i dont want the braves to. i guess i didnt mention that i only would be ok with it if they were having the worst year ever.

but yeah i get ur point and im sure u get mine by now, just dont add more than what i write but it seems to have been more of a misunderstanding

uncblue15
08-20-2009, 11:43 AM
yes that was an example of something not a pointer for the braves to follow. you added the whole "pointer" part. why in the world would i want anyone to follow washington? my main point in bringing up the washington dunn was that everyone knows what a ****** horribly run club that is and yet dunn, a good player wanted by other teams, chose them cause they offered him the most money like many other player past and present.
ur titled to ur opinion that u cant get away with doing **** like what we are discussing about and i say that it happens sometimes but i dont want the braves to. i guess i didnt mention that i only would be ok with it if they were having the worst year ever.

but yeah i get ur point and im sure u get mine by now, just dont add more than what i write but it seems to have been more of a misunderstanding

Derek really hasnt been as bad as you might think....he has a huge amount of quality starts...just as much as JJ and Javy i think....and his numbers arent terrible. Derek has a 3.75 FIP. FIP is just like ERA if defense didnt take a role. Its ERA that the pitcher controls. Compare that to other pitchers

JJ has a 3.68
Javy- 2.76 3rd best overall
Derek is tied with Johan
better than pitchers like Lackey, Zamrano, MATT CAIN, Roy Oswalt, Yovani Gallardo, Jarrod Washburn, JA Happ, COle Hamels.

He is 24th overall. The 24th best SP in FIP. If our defense was as good as other teams like SF giving matt cain a sub 3 ERA when his FIP is 3.89 YOU WOULDNT BE COMPLAINING! He has had a few bad starts but nothing to warrant getting rid of him....infact he has been worth his money. He is worth 12.6 mill so far and will almost assurdely reach that 15 mill so we really arent overpaying either.

TomahawkChopper
08-20-2009, 11:47 AM
This is the venting thread right? Ok....


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :mad:


alright thats how I felt this past week just had to get that out there.

Bustersballs
08-20-2009, 02:31 PM
Derek really hasnt been as bad as you might think....he has a huge amount of quality starts...just as much as JJ and Javy i think....and his numbers arent terrible. Derek has a 3.75 FIP. FIP is just like ERA if defense didnt take a role. Its ERA that the pitcher controls. Compare that to other pitchers

JJ has a 3.68
Javy- 2.76 3rd best overall
Derek is tied with Johan
better than pitchers like Lackey, Zamrano, MATT CAIN, Roy Oswalt, Yovani Gallardo, Jarrod Washburn, JA Happ, COle Hamels.


jesus christ you dont even know what im talking about no wonder u got banned after 10 posts idiot.