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View Full Version : How difficult is it to build a championship team around a guard?



Lakersfan2483
06-12-2009, 06:44 PM
Simple Question PSD: How hard is it to build a championship team around a guard, especially a shooting guard? We all know Jordan won 6 titles as the focale point of the triple post triangle offense, and now Kobe is on the verge of leading his team to a title, so I just wanted to hear all of your opinions on how difficult it is to build a championship team without a dominant big man?


*Isaiah Thomas led his Detroit Pistons team to 2 NBA titles also, but his team was comprised of some of the best defensive big men in the game and he had one of the greatest defensive teams ever.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-12-2009, 06:47 PM
Did Kobe give you the idea of making this thead?

Raps18-19 Champ
06-12-2009, 06:49 PM
Well by what you are saying, Kobe is only going to win his first title because you said without a dominant big man.

Technically, by your standards, Kobe hasn't won a ring yet so I guess it's pretty hard.

Lakersfan2483
06-12-2009, 06:49 PM
Did Kobe give you the idea of making this thead?

No, its a legit question.

JordansBulls
06-12-2009, 06:50 PM
Simple Question PSD: How hard is it to build a championship team around a guard, especially a shooting guard? We all know Jordan won 6 titles as the focale point of the triple post triangle offense, and now Kobe is on the verge of leading his team to a title, so I just wanted to hear all of your opinions on how difficult it is to build a championship team without a dominant big man?


*Isaiah Thomas led his Detroit Pistons team to 2 NBA titles also, but his team was comprised of some of the best defensive big men in the game and he had one of the greatest defensive teams ever.

Isiah won 2 titles, however Dumars won Finals MVP for their first title. In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well. While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever.

It is quite difficult to win titles with a SG as your leader, it doesn't happen often. However at any position you can win titles with a certain player your best player. However, you aren't going to have dynasties for the most part unless your best player is a Center.

Here is a graphic I did a while ago.

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/nbachampionshipstatspf4.jpg

So really only MJ and Magic were guys to win multiple titles as the best players on their teams and as the focal point.

dtmagnet
06-12-2009, 07:27 PM
I'm not sure you can look at it the same way as you used to, Magic Johnson played multiple positions so its hard to say if you call him a point guard or even a center. You could say Lebron is a point guard as well as a small forward because he runs the offense.

heyman321
06-12-2009, 08:10 PM
Guys, I think Jordan's Bulls is acutally a computer.

Lizard King
06-12-2009, 08:11 PM
Isiah won 2 titles, however Dumars won Finals MVP for their first title. In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well. While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever.

It is quite difficult to win titles with a SG as your leader, it doesn't happen often. However at any position you can win titles with a certain player your best player. However, you aren't going to have dynasties for the most part unless your best player is a Center.

Here is a graphic I did a while ago.

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/nbachampionshipstatspf4.jpg

So really only MJ and Magic were guys to win multiple titles as the best players on their teams and as the focal point.

That's a pretty neat graph. Would KG or Pierce be the focal point of Boston's championship last season?

JordansBulls
06-12-2009, 08:20 PM
That's a pretty neat graph. Would KG or Pierce be the focal point of Boston's championship last season?

KG. He led the team in PER, Win Shares in the season and playoffs and finished higher in MVP voting. Pierce just happened to win finals mvp.

Lizard King
06-12-2009, 08:23 PM
KG. He led the team in PER, Win Shares in the season and playoffs and finished higher in MVP voting. Pierce just happened to win finals mvp.

So, including San Antonio's championship in 07, and Boston's in 08, there would be a total of 7 championships won, with a PF as the focal point. Which also means, that 39 NBA championships have been won with a big man as the main piece of the group. Shows how important a strong front court is.

Rapt0rs
06-13-2009, 12:37 AM
Did Kobe give you the idea of making this thead?

Lol :clap:

Vinny642
06-13-2009, 01:23 AM
we got cp3 and its been hard as hell

sp1derm00
06-13-2009, 03:47 AM
Isiah won 2 titles, however Dumars won Finals MVP for their first title. In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well. While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever.

It is quite difficult to win titles with a SG as your leader, it doesn't happen often. However at any position you can win titles with a certain player your best player. However, you aren't going to have dynasties for the most part unless your best player is a Center.

Here is a graphic I did a while ago.

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/nbachampionshipstatspf4.jpg

So really only MJ and Magic were guys to win multiple titles as the best players on their teams and as the focal point.


Wait.... Ben Wallace was the focal point of the Pistons?

_KB24_
06-13-2009, 04:06 AM
Every team needs a dominant big man or atleast two AMAZING WING PLAYERS (Jordan and Pippen)

SJSHARKIES
06-13-2009, 04:53 AM
Very difficult, a Big provides a team with presence inside both offensively and defensively. A dominant Big can provide a team with stability. Blocking, rebounding, providing a presence defensively and offensively it is a great feeling when you know you can get easy buckets when you have a dominant BIG. If you don't have a 1-2 combo of a BIG and guard, than you better have a great guard (Jordan, Kobe). Jordan did it, and so is Kobe this year. I don't consider Gasol a dominant Big, he is very good don't get me wrong, but he's no Garnett, Duncan, Shaq ect...

SJSHARKIES
06-13-2009, 05:00 AM
But even Jordan and Kobe have a supporting cast. So if you don't have a Big to small man combination, you better have a really good guard and a great supporting cast.

IndyRealist
06-13-2009, 11:50 AM
There is relative lack of talent at PF/C, because the primary requisite is size. At PG/SG/SF you have to have talent or absurd athelticism to even make it to the NBA. To be really good you have to excel in multiple areas. But the bigs just have to be big. So when a PF/C is good, with freakish size (Shaq), athleticism (Amare), or skill (Duncan), they're 20x better than their competition.

The gist is that the difference between an average wing and a good wing is not as drastic as the difference between an average big and a good big.

Raoul Duke
06-13-2009, 12:31 PM
I'm more confused on the subject now than I was when I decided to reply. If anything, I'd say the facts presented indicate that you can't win without a quality frontcourt and a quality backcourt.

I guess I'd say bigs are slightly more important to a championship run, although I don't think it really matters if your best big is a C or a PF, especially in today's NBA.


Wait.... Ben Wallace was the focal point of the Pistons?

Yeah, since when did that happen? That team was the very definition of "balanced".


The gist is that the difference between an average wing and a good wing is not as drastic as the difference between an average big and a good big.

That is a really good point.

MPScribbles
06-13-2009, 12:41 PM
Gasol is an amazingly skilled player. I'm so tired of all these Kobe nut riders saying how Kobe is doing it all by himself just because he doesn't have Shaq this time. The fact is that no other team can put out a front court rotation like Gasol, Bynum and Odom. Kobe isn't even playing that well and he is going to get way too much credit for this championship. He is shooting 43% and turning the ball over almost 4 times a game. Look the game that the Magic won, Kobe- mr clutch- has his chance to be who everyone makes him out to be and he gets stripped by Dwight Howard which allows the Magic to seal the victory on Pietrus free throws. The Lakers are winning this championship, not Kobe. Gasol is getting 20/8 shooting 58% going against the DPOY. Lamar Odom was player of game 2 and Ariza and Fisher are the ones that really won game 4. Stop giving Kobe all the credit.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2009, 02:02 PM
Gasol is an amazingly skilled player. I'm so tired of all these Kobe nut riders saying how Kobe is doing it all by himself just because he doesn't have Shaq this time. The fact is that no other team can put out a front court rotation like Gasol, Bynum and Odom. Kobe isn't even playing that well and he is going to get way too much credit for this championship. He is shooting 43% and turning the ball over almost 4 times a game. Look the game that the Magic won, Kobe- mr clutch- has his chance to be who everyone makes him out to be and he gets stripped by Dwight Howard which allows the Magic to seal the victory on Pietrus free throws. The Lakers are winning this championship, not Kobe. Gasol is getting 20/8 shooting 58% going against the DPOY. Lamar Odom was player of game 2 and Ariza and Fisher are the ones that really won game 4. Stop giving Kobe all the credit.

What an idiotic post, you do realize that having a player like Kobe on the floor creates more opportunities for his teammates, correct? :eyebrow: You keep saying he's playing bad, but the man is averaging 33 points ppg, 8 apg, 6rpg, not too mention he's making plays down the stretch of ball games (Outside of Game 3) he's made crucial plays to set up his teammates for the game clinching shots. He's also hit critical shots (he gave the Lakers the go ahead basket in the overtime of game 4 and made the game winning pass to Fisher to win game 4, not too mention his game winning assist to Gasol in Game 2 against the Magic in overtime). Having Kobe on the court opens up so many other opportunities for his teammates and it allows guys like Gasol, etc.. to play one on one. Kobe's averaged 8 assists in his last 6 games, the only other laker to do that, Magic Johnson......

*As far as shooting pcts..., I remember Jordan not shooting particularly well agains the Sonics, he shot about .42pct from the field and avg. 27ppg, but he found a way to get the job done. Also, MJ shot .415 pct against the Jazz in 98, but he still led them to a title. I say all of that to say, you can't just look at field goal pcts., you have to look at the entire player's game and what that player is bringing to the game every night....

*Gasol is shooting a career best 58% playing alongside Kobe, before playing with Kobe, he was shooting 45% in the playoffs, coincidence? Kobe elevates the level of play of his teammates and is making it easier for other guys to succeed, that's common basketball knowledge. Any basketball fan should know that having a Superstar on the court opens up the game for the supporting cast, because the defense is more focused on the best player i.e. Kobe.

Big E
06-13-2009, 02:36 PM
Gasol still isn't getting enough credit for his contribution in getting this title (you know they're gonna win it). He's an All-star caliber PF.
Saying Kobe is doing it by himself is laughable. Shaq said it best, Kobe and Shaq were the best guard center tandum. Not Shaq - Wade and definatley not Kobe - Gasol.


I still think if Garnett was healthy the Celtics would have won it (and I HATE the Celtics)

SpeeMN
06-13-2009, 03:00 PM
If a guard is the best player, every other starter must be an above average player. Along with another star. Nothing Less.

abe_froman
06-13-2009, 03:02 PM
difficult but not as impossible as many try to make it to be...and will become more common(rule changes/the trend in guards being the focal point...like we saw this year in the playoffs)

Lizard King
06-13-2009, 03:13 PM
Wait.... Ben Wallace was the focal point of the Pistons?

I didn't notice that. I'd say Billups was the focal point of that team.

MPScribbles
06-13-2009, 03:20 PM
What an idiotic post, you do realize that having a player like Kobe on the floor creates more opportunities for his teammates, correct? :eyebrow: You keep saying he's playing bad, but the man is averaging 33 points ppg, 8 apg, 6rpg, not too mention he's making plays down the stretch of ball games (Outside of Game 3) he's made crucial plays to set up his teammates for the game clinching shots. He's also hit critical shots (he gave the Lakers the go ahead basket in the overtime of game 4 and made the game winning pass to Fisher to win game 4, not too mention his game winning assist to Gasol in Game 2 against the Magic in overtime). Having Kobe on the court opens up so many other opportunities for his teammates and it allows guys like Gasol, etc.. to play one on one. Kobe's averaged 8 assists in his last 6 games, the only other laker to do that, Magic Johnson......

*As far as shooting pcts..., I remember Jordan not shooting particularly well agains the Sonics, he shot about .42pct from the field and avg. 27ppg, but he found a way to get the job done. Also, MJ shot .415 pct against the Jazz in 98, but he still led them to a title. I say all of that to say, you can't just look at field goal pcts., you have to look at the entire player's game and what that player is bringing to the game every night....

*Gasol is shooting a career best 58% playing alongside Kobe, before playing with Kobe, he was shooting 45% in the playoffs, coincidence? Kobe elevates the level of play of his teammates and is making it easier for other guys to succeed, that's common basketball knowledge. Any basketball fan should know that having a Superstar on the court opens up the game for the supporting cast, because the defense is more focused on the best player i.e. Kobe.

Disagree with me if you wish but there is no reason for inflammatory language like that. I think that is called baiting- check the rules page.

That should be playing badly, and no I dont keep saying that. In fact I never said that.

Kobe isn't even playing that well and he is going to get way too much credit for this championship. He is shooting 43% and turning the ball over almost 4 times a game. is what I said. All of which is factual. When I say not playing that well, I mean by his own standards.

Also lost in all this talk is the matter of who is Kobe guarding? He starts the game against a rookie who is playing bench minutes then continues on Pietrus who is playing really well except for game 2. So obviously Kobe isn't wasting much energy on defense. Meanwhile, Gasol is responsible for containing Howard and doing a great job of it.

Game 1 was a blowout- yay Kobe for scoring 40. Odom had a great game 2 and was mvp of that game. Ariza and Fisher should get most of the glory from game 4. At what point do you get to make the argument that Kobe is doing it all by himself?

You think the Kobe-Gasol dynamic only works out in Gasol's favor? Why were Kobe's Lakers so pitiful before they got Gasol then?

Like I said, the Lakers are winning this championship, NOT Kobe.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2009, 04:17 PM
Disagree with me if you wish but there is no reason for inflammatory language like that. I think that is called baiting- check the rules page.

That should be playing badly, and no I dont keep saying that. In fact I never said that.
is what I said. All of which is factual. When I say not playing that well, I mean by his own standards.

Also lost in all this talk is the matter of who is Kobe guarding? He starts the game against a rookie who is playing bench minutes then continues on Pietrus who is playing really well except for game 2. So obviously Kobe isn't wasting much energy on defense. Meanwhile, Gasol is responsible for containing Howard and doing a great job of it.

Game 1 was a blowout- yay Kobe for scoring 40. Odom had a great game 2 and was mvp of that game. Ariza and Fisher should get most of the glory from game 4. At what point do you get to make the argument that Kobe is doing it all by himself?

You think the Kobe-Gasol dynamic only works out in Gasol's favor? Why were Kobe's Lakers so pitiful before they got Gasol then?

Like I said, the Lakers are winning this championship, NOT Kobe.

No, the baiting is having that avatar on your sig and having something negative to say about the Lakers. I didn't make the argument Kobe is doing it all by himself, who wins a title doing it by themselves? Kobe is the "main" player on the team, meaning he's the superstar and is the face of the franchise, so of course a lot of the credit is going to go to him. I responded to your post and pointed out the major "flaws" in your arguments and you got upset about it.

*As far as Dwight Howard, the Lakers' team has done a great job of playing "team" defense on him. Everytime Howard touches the ball, he's seeing 2 or 3 lakers on him, that's why we have been effectively guarding him. Gasol has done an admirable job, but let's be realistic here, Howard is facing 2 and 3 defenders everytime he touches the ball on the low block, not sure what games you have been watching?

*You said not playing well by his standards, well if a player is putting up 33 ppg, 8apg, and 6rpg, it would be scary to see how much better he could play, if he were playing up to his standards.... Not too many players can put up those type of numbers playing subpar.

mrblisterdundee
06-13-2009, 04:51 PM
A successful team always has a decent back court, some slashers, and some big men. Different success stories have had those three elements in different combos. Chicago had changing combos of good slashers and good defensive big men to help Michael Jordan. Los Angeles had a good back court and slashers to help Shaqulle O'Neal. Now Los Angeles has good big men to help Kobe Bryant. Detroit had a good back court and a balance of slashers and decent big men. San Antonio has had a good back court and a good slasher to help Tim Duncan.
A good team always finds their own successful balance of those three elements. Once Cleveland get's a decent post scorer, they will have a balance of a decent front court and back court to help Lebron James.

MPScribbles
06-13-2009, 05:19 PM
No, the baiting is having that avatar on your sig and having something negative to say about the Lakers. I didn't make the argument Kobe is doing it all by himself, who wins a title doing it by themselves? Kobe is the "main" player on the team, meaning he's the superstar and is the face of the franchise, so of course a lot of the credit is going to go to him. I responded to your post and pointed out the major "flaws" in your arguments and you got upset about it.

*As far as Dwight Howard, the Lakers' team has done a great job of playing "team" defense on him. Everytime Howard touches the ball, he's seeing 2 or 3 lakers on him, that's why we have been effectively guarding him. Gasol has done an admirable job, but let's be realistic here, Howard is facing 2 and 3 defenders everytime he touches the ball on the low block, not sure what games you have been watching?

*You said not playing well by his standards, well if a player is putting up 33 ppg, 8apg, and 6rpg, it would be scary to see how much better he could play, if he were playing up to his standards.... Not too many players can put up those type of numbers playing subpar.

Where to start?
Is it my avatar or my sig that bother you? You know there is a difference. Read the rules, saying something negative about the Lakers isn't baiting.
3) Baiting. This is deliberately initiating a fight with another poster. Please keep good quality debate and don't try and coax someone into a personal fight. <- copied from rules page. Please tell me how I tried to coax you into a personal fight. What negative thing did I say about the Lakers that should be considered baiting? Quote it in your next post.
You didn't say that Kobe was doing all by himself. You did, however, take exception to my post in which I made a case for how the entire team is to credit for winning this series and Kobe was sure to receive the majority of the credit because now Shaq isn't on this team.
Why would you put flaws in quotations? Do you doubt the existence of the flaw? Also, please point out at which point I got "upset". See how I used the quotation marks correctly?
I've been watching the same games you have been watching. Pau Gasol is playing the most minutes on Dwight Howard. He is the main guy responsible for defending Howard. The Lakers have given help, very well, and it has definitely contributed to keeping Howard from going off but Gasol still deserves the majority of the credit because he is playing the majority of the defense.
Not sure of your point in the third paragraph. Yes, Kobe is a great player. My point is that he is not playing as well as he could based on his below average shooting and above average turnovers.

IversonIsKrazy
06-13-2009, 05:25 PM
Also, Billups & Dr.J were tha focal points in their teams.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2009, 11:02 PM
Where to start?
Is it my avatar or my sig that bother you? You know there is a difference. Read the rules, saying something negative about the Lakers isn't baiting.
3) Baiting. This is deliberately initiating a fight with another poster. Please keep good quality debate and don't try and coax someone into a personal fight. <- copied from rules page. Please tell me how I tried to coax you into a personal fight. What negative thing did I say about the Lakers that should be considered baiting? Quote it in your next post.
You didn't say that Kobe was doing all by himself. You did, however, take exception to my post in which I made a case for how the entire team is to credit for winning this series and Kobe was sure to receive the majority of the credit because now Shaq isn't on this team.Why would you put flaws in quotations? Do you doubt the existence of the flaw? Also, please point out at which point I got "upset". See how I used the quotation marks correctly?
I've been watching the same games you have been watching. Pau Gasol is playing the most minutes on Dwight Howard. He is the main guy responsible for defending Howard. The Lakers have given help, very well, and it has definitely contributed to keeping Howard from going off but Gasol still deserves the majority of the credit because he is playing the majority of the defense.

Not sure of your point in the third paragraph. Yes, Kobe is a great player. My point is that he is not playing as well as he could based on his below average shooting and above average turnovers.

Justifiably so, he is the main reason they have gotten this far and has been the team's best player. He's also the leader and sets the table for the rest of the guys, so it's only right if he garners most of the attention and the accolades that come with leading a team to a title.

D-Will4Prez
06-14-2009, 12:05 AM
haha silly lakers fans think kobe > jordan lmao

_KB24_
06-14-2009, 12:05 AM
Gasol is an amazingly skilled player. I'm so tired of all these Kobe nut riders saying how Kobe is doing it all by himself just because he doesn't have Shaq this time. The fact is that no other team can put out a front court rotation like Gasol, Bynum and Odom. Kobe isn't even playing that well and he is going to get way too much credit for this championship. He is shooting 43% and turning the ball over almost 4 times a game. Look the game that the Magic won, Kobe- mr clutch- has his chance to be who everyone makes him out to be and he gets stripped by Dwight Howard which allows the Magic to seal the victory on Pietrus free throws. The Lakers are winning this championship, not Kobe. Gasol is getting 20/8 shooting 58% going against the DPOY. Lamar Odom was player of game 2 and Ariza and Fisher are the ones that really won game 4. Stop giving Kobe all the credit.

Damn, i guess averaging 33+ points 8 assists and 6 boards is not "playing well". ****, half the people in the league couldn't even average half of that. Kobe had one bad game in Game 3 and hes still finished off with 30 + and 8 assists. He is getting the job done, so stay quiet.

Vinny642
06-14-2009, 12:08 AM
haha silly lakers fans think kobe > jordan lmao

haha and silly jazz fans think dwill>> cp3
jkjk i dont want to have that argument for the 50th time

MPScribbles
06-14-2009, 02:31 AM
Justifiably so, he is the main reason they have gotten this far and has been the team's best player. He's also the leader and sets the table for the rest of the guys, so it's only right if he garners most of the attention and the accolades that come with leading a team to a title.

Fail. I knew that you wouldn't address the questions that I asked because they draw attention to where you are wrong or said something stupid in this debate. Typically people won't address questions if the answer makes them look bad. If you remember correctly, you are the one that categorized my post as idiotic so it shouldn't be difficult for you to win a debate based on that idiotic post.
I will give you a chance to redeem yourself:
Read the rules, saying something negative about the Lakers isn't baiting.
3) Baiting. This is deliberately initiating a fight with another poster. Please keep good quality debate and don't try and coax someone into a personal fight. <- copied from rules page. Please tell me how I tried to coax you into a personal fight. What negative thing did I say about the Lakers that should be considered baiting? Quote it in your next post.
Why would you put flaws in quotations? Do you doubt the existence of the flaw? Also, please point out at which point I got "upset". See how I used the quotation marks correctly?

MPScribbles
06-14-2009, 02:37 AM
Damn, i guess averaging 33+ points 8 assists and 6 boards is not "playing well". ****, half the people in the league couldn't even average half of that. Kobe had one bad game in Game 3 and hes still finished off with 30 + and 8 assists. He is getting the job done, so stay quiet.

Stay quiet? Well, thank you for putting me in my place. If you are going to try to join the conversation at least have something new to say. I've already explained what I meant by that so me replying to you is actually quite repetitive. Kobe is shooting poorly and turning the ball over more than usual, and at key moments like when Howard stripped him which led to Magic closing out game 3 on Pietrus' free throws. You know that what I say is true so please read before you post and have something to say when you decide to post.

Lakersfan2483
06-14-2009, 04:08 AM
If Bryant wins a title this year without a dominant big man (Pau is an excellent player, but far from dominant), he's in rare territory with the likes of Jordan in terms of winning a ring without having a dominant big man down low.

Lakersfan2483
06-14-2009, 06:48 AM
MPScribbles;9786481]Fail. I knew that you wouldn't address the questions that I asked because they draw attention to where you are wrong or said something stupid in this debate. Typically people won't address questions if the answer makes them look bad. If you remember correctly, you are the one that categorized my post as idiotic so it shouldn't be difficult for you to win a debate based on that idiotic post.
I will give you a chance to redeem yourself:
Read the rules, saying something negative about the Lakers isn't baiting.
3) Baiting. This is deliberately initiating a fight with another poster. Please keep good quality debate and don't try and coax someone into a personal fight. <- copied from rules page. Please tell me how I tried to coax you into a personal fight. What negative thing did I say about the Lakers that should be considered baiting? Quote it in your next post.
Why would you put flaws in quotations? Do you doubt the existence of the flaw? Also, please point out at which point I got "upset". See how I used the quotation marks correctly?

My post failed just because I didn't respond to your questions? I clearly illustrated why Bryant deserves all of the attention he is garnering due to the numbers he's putting up, but more importantly, his team is winning. You don't like the fact that Bryant is on the verge of winning a title and in so doing, adding to his legacy. The lakers are playing well as a team, but make no mistake about it, it's because of Bryant.

dos132
06-14-2009, 09:26 AM
and its so hard to have 2 dominant player in your team, and will they have the chemistry? like what jordan and pipen, kobe and shaq, wade and shaq. have...

MPScribbles
06-14-2009, 01:39 PM
My post failed just because I didn't respond to your questions? I clearly illustrated why Bryant deserves all of the attention he is garnering due to the numbers he's putting up, but more importantly, his team is winning. You don't like the fact that Bryant is on the verge of winning a title and in so doing, adding to his legacy. The lakers are playing well as a team, but make no mistake about it, it's because of Bryant.

Yes. The point of a debate is that you make you points and are able to back them up to the point that your counterpart has nothing left to say on that matter, thus winning the debate. When you make points based on nothing and then get called on those points and have nothing to say to back what you originally said you get owned.

architect13563
06-14-2009, 02:16 PM
MJ is one of a kind. But, he couldn't have done it without Longley or Caffey.

JordansBulls
06-14-2009, 02:54 PM
If Bryant wins a title this year without a dominant big man (Pau is an excellent player, but far from dominant), he's in rare territory with the likes of Jordan in terms of winning a ring without having a dominant big man down low.

Rick Barry and Isiah as well. You could also say Billups in 2004.

However, Gasol was an allstar and did lead the team in win shares in the season.

Also there aren't really any dominant big men in the league nowadays. Duncan, Garnett, Dirk are guys I think of with Yao and Dwight on the border. Guys like Bosh, Amare, Gasol, Boozer are allstars.

xxdc2tegxx
06-14-2009, 04:55 PM
MJ is one of a kind. But, he couldn't have done it without Longley or Caffey.

...lol

lets not forget dickey simpkins also

b_rad23
06-14-2009, 05:14 PM
If Bryant wins a title this year without a dominant big man (Pau is an excellent player, but far from dominant), he's in rare territory with the likes of Jordan in terms of winning a ring without having a dominant big man down low.

Dwyane Wade is there if Kobe's there.

2009 Pau>2006 Shaq.

mikantsass
06-14-2009, 05:44 PM
This wouldnt be a post if KG was healthy because it would be a Celtics repeat and the topic would be "when is Kobe going to opt out and go to the Knicks"

RollinDeep
06-14-2009, 11:47 PM
This wouldnt be a post if KG was healthy because it would be a Celtics repeat and the topic would be "when is Kobe going to opt out and go to the Knicks"

If the moon was made of cheese I could put it on my burger.

rapswin98
06-14-2009, 11:51 PM
If the moon was made of cheese I could put it on my burger.:laugh2:

_KB24_
06-15-2009, 11:42 PM
Dwyane Wade is there if Kobe's there.

2009 Pau>2006 Shaq.

:speechless: Cmon.......really........:speechless:.....just:spe echless:

_KB24_
06-15-2009, 11:44 PM
Stay quiet? Well, thank you for putting me in my place. If you are going to try to join the conversation at least have something new to say. I've already explained what I meant by that so me replying to you is actually quite repetitive. Kobe is shooting poorly and turning the ball over more than usual, and at key moments like when Howard stripped him which led to Magic closing out game 3 on Pietrus' free throws. You know that what I say is true so please read before you post and have something to say when you decide to post.

Like I've already said, it was that one bad quarter in game 3. Thats it. You know what I'm saying is true but you just need to find a way to hate on Kobe so carry on if you really want to, because you know I'll win the argument.

b_rad23
06-15-2009, 11:47 PM
:speechless: Cmon.......really........:speechless:.....just:spe echless:

Shaq's 2006 NBA finals stats: 35.2 mpg. 13.7 ppg 10.2 rpg .8 bpg 60% fg 29.2% ft.
Pau's 2009 NBA finals stats: 42 mpg. 18.6 ppg 9.2 rpg 1.8 bpg 60% fg 77.8% ft.

MPScribbles
06-15-2009, 11:56 PM
Shaq's 2006 NBA finals stats: 35.2 mpg. 13.7 ppg 10.2 rpg .8 bpg 60% fg 29.2% ft.
Pau's 2009 NBA finals stats: 42 mpg. 18.6 ppg 9.2 rpg 1.8 bpg 60% fg 77.8% ft.

Owned.

MPScribbles
06-16-2009, 12:04 AM
Like I've already said, it was that one bad quarter in game 3. Thats it. You know what I'm saying is true but you just need to find a way to hate on Kobe so carry on if you really want to, because you know I'll win the argument.

Kobe was unstoppable in this entire series except that one quarter? Lets be clear, there is no argument. You were not apart of the conversation and tried to insert yourself well into the conversation without having anything insightful or even original to say. You obviously just buy into all the Kobe hype and who is to blame you? You're such a lil fanboy, like all these other Lakers fans, that you put some derivative of Kobe's name and/or number in your id. Keep drinking your kool aid and telling each other how you have the best player ever leading your team to the promised land.
Kobe=Moses.

_KB24_
06-16-2009, 04:29 PM
Shaq's 2006 NBA finals stats: 35.2 mpg. 13.7 ppg 10.2 rpg .8 bpg 60% fg 29.2% ft.
Pau's 2009 NBA finals stats: 42 mpg. 18.6 ppg 9.2 rpg 1.8 bpg 60% fg 77.8% ft.


Owned.


Kobe was unstoppable in this entire series except that one quarter? Lets be clear, there is no argument. You were not apart of the conversation and tried to insert yourself well into the conversation without having anything insightful or even original to say. You obviously just buy into all the Kobe hype and who is to blame you? You're such a lil fanboy, like all these other Lakers fans, that you put some derivative of Kobe's name and/or number in your id. Keep drinking your kool aid and telling each other how you have the best player ever leading your team to the promised land.
Kobe=Moses.

So what, they both had fairly similar stats except for the Free-throw percentage and a couple of points? Shaq played 7 fewer minutes but I don't think anyone would rather have the 09 Pau vs the 06 Shaq. As good as Pau was this series defensively, Shaq was a MUCH bigger defensive presence in the post. And MPScribbles, who the **** are you to tell me who I am and talk **** about me? Atleast us Kobe fans have something to cheer about, what the **** has any Chicago team done in the past 10 years?? You want to know....****.... The Bears suck, the Cubs suck, the Bulls are decent but I'm sure you guys will find a way to **** them as well too. Yeah we have our Moses, too bad you guys never will.