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View Full Version : 2007 nuugets vs 2008 nuggets



cowboys:nuggets
06-06-2009, 07:39 PM
2007 nuggets with AI were 50-32 and there Strength of Schedule was .503%
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi?season=2008&sortColumn=sos

IN 2008 nuggets were 54-28 with CB and there Strength of Schedule was .499%

So y are people saying that the nuggets are waY BETTER with Billups then with AI also the n uggets with Ai there Pf was 9027 and there PA was 8770

And with CB there PF was 8555 and there PA was 8275 thats about the same also the nuggets were the 8th seed in 07 but 2 in 08. to me the nuggets were better with Ai and were more dangerous

KeithLBC
06-06-2009, 07:43 PM
Because Billups led them past the first round and made them play better as a team rather than as individuals. With Billups the team also focused on playing defense rather than just trying to outscore the opponent.

Brooke
06-06-2009, 07:51 PM
with Billups they played as a team and he was a big reason they got as far as they did. He brought a new dimension to that team and it was for the better

dos132
06-06-2009, 08:05 PM
nuggets are more better with billups and Carmelo with more mature attitude...
big difference when AI is on nuggets... look what happen to detroit, even AI is a best player, he does not fit into detroit..

GodsSon
06-06-2009, 08:05 PM
the point differential between the 2 years is pretty damn big,...like 500 points for each...thats makes a huge difference, particularly on the defensive end

dsonLAL24
06-06-2009, 08:13 PM
this years nuggets has no comparisons with the AI nuggets.

championships
06-06-2009, 08:24 PM
Billups Nuggets went to the WCF. A.I.s Nuggets got swept. Plus Billups made Mello a better player and A.I. took away from Mello and Billups makes his teammates better when A.I. just looks for his own game.

lakers sqaud
06-06-2009, 08:40 PM
this years nuggets would kill last years nuggets~~!

cmellofan15
06-06-2009, 08:46 PM
What's all this AI's Nuggets talk? That team was Carmelo's, and yes I think the team led by Chauncey is better than a team led by younger Carmelo.

AIverson
06-06-2009, 08:47 PM
What does it matter?

They're both losing teams.

DenButsu
06-06-2009, 09:02 PM
2007 nuggets with AI were 50-32 and there Strength of Schedule was .503%
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi?season=2008&sortColumn=sos

IN 2008 nuggets were 54-28 with CB and there Strength of Schedule was .499%

So y are people saying that the nuggets are waY BETTER with Billups then with AI also the n uggets with Ai there Pf was 9027 and there PA was 8770

And with CB there PF was 8555 and there PA was 8275 thats about the same also the nuggets were the 8th seed in 07 but 2 in 08. to me the nuggets were better with Ai and were more dangerous

You have "nuggets" in your user name so I don't want to accuse you of not watching Nuggets games.

So I'll just ask, and I'm being serious, not sarcastic: How many Nuggets games did you actually watch in the AI era vs. how many games you watched this season after the trade? Because the win/loss records don't even begin to tell the story, really.

The 2008-09 Nuggets were a team that underwent a dramatic transformation from the previous season, completely overhauling their defense, and retooling their offense to less of a run-and-gun and more of a half court oriented game with more set plays and organized schemes. They also of course made a major trade after 3 games, which meant that their key player (in terms of team leadership) was not there during training camp to learn the system or his teammates' games or to play a leadership role. They also dumped Camby off, which left a major void in terms of rebounding that the frontcourt had to adjust to. So given all that change and turbulence, this season's team should have, if anything, lost more games than last season's just by virtue of the fact that it was a transitional season in which they were figuring out what they were doing and how to do it on the fly as they went along. But of course they actually won more, and went on not only to finally get Melo out of the first round for his first time in 6 attempts (something that AI - who sucked bad in both Nuggets' postseasons he was on the roster for - was unable to help him do), but to get through the second round and into the Western Conference Finals, where they put up a respectable fight against a more experienced and talented Lakers team.

So on that level, the proof is just right there in the pudding. Iverson was too much a defensive liability to allow the Nuggets to establish a focused defensive identity, and in fact I'd also argue that due to his either inability or refusal to run an organized, efficient halfcourt offense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDjAygeisHc&feature=channel_page) as he dominated the ball, was an offensive liability as well in spite of the scoring punch he brought to the table.

And that's where the real difference comes into play. Even if the Nuggets had only won 48 games this season, I'd still have argued that this season's team was the better team. They were much more controlled and efficient offensively, their chemistry and cohesion was WORLDS better than it ever was under AI, they played with poise and composure under Billups' leadership and rallied back from big deficits time after time, and most importantly of all they not only started the season out talking about defense (as they also did when AI was on board), but they actually successfully implemented and maintained through the entire season a tough new defensive stance and focus, and a major part of that was getting the players to actually buy into the defensive system - and that was all about Billups. And that's why I ask if you watched many games this season, because all of these differences are really night and day, and to me it's just so easy to see that the quality of basketball, the quality of team play, the quality of mental focus and confidence, is just so much higher now that I've ever seen it, and while not all of the credit for that goes to Chauncey, much of it certainly does.

Bottom line: No Billups-AI trade -> no efficient halfcourt offense or defensive team orientation -> just another first round exit.

chitownbulls
06-06-2009, 09:35 PM
You have "nuggets" in your user name so I don't want to accuse you of not watching Nuggets games.

So I'll just ask, and I'm being serious, not sarcastic: How many Nuggets games did you actually watch in the AI era vs. how many games you watched this season after the trade? Because the win/loss records don't even begin to tell the story, really.

The 2008-09 Nuggets were a team that underwent a dramatic transformation from the previous season, completely overhauling their defense, and retooling their offense to less of a run-and-gun and more of a half court oriented game with more set plays and organized schemes. They also of course made a major trade after 3 games, which meant that their key player (in terms of team leadership) was not there during training camp to learn the system or his teammates' games or to play a leadership role. They also dumped Camby off, which left a major void in terms of rebounding that the frontcourt had to adjust to. So given all that change and turbulence, this season's team should have, if anything, lost more games than last season's just by virtue of the fact that it was a transitional season in which they were figuring out what they were doing and how to do it on the fly as they went along. But of course they actually won more, and went on not only to finally get Melo out of the first round for his first time in 6 attempts (something that AI - who sucked bad in both Nuggets' postseasons he was on the roster for - was unable to help him do), but to get through the second round and into the Western Conference Finals, where they put up a respectable fight against a more experienced and talented Lakers team.

So on that level, the proof is just right there in the pudding. Iverson was too much a defensive liability to allow the Nuggets to establish a focused defensive identity, and in fact I'd also argue that due to his either inability or refusal to run an organized, efficient halfcourt offense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDjAygeisHc&feature=channel_page) as he dominated the ball, was an offensive liability as well in spite of the scoring punch he brought to the table.

And that's where the real difference comes into play. Even if the Nuggets had only won 48 games this season, I'd still have argued that this season's team was the better team. They were much more controlled and efficient offensively, their chemistry and cohesion was WORLDS better than it ever was under AI, they played with poise and composure under Billups' leadership and rallied back from big deficits time after time, and most importantly of all they not only started the season out talking about defense (as they also did when AI was on board), but they actually successfully implemented and maintained through the entire season a tough new defensive stance and focus, and a major part of that was getting the players to actually buy into the defensive system - and that was all about Billups. And that's why I ask if you watched many games this season, because all of these differences are really night and day, and to me it's just so easy to see that the quality of basketball, the quality of team play, the quality of mental focus and confidence, is just so much higher now that I've ever seen it, and while not all of the credit for that goes to Chauncey, much of it certainly does.

Bottom line: No Billups-AI trade -> no efficient halfcourt offense or defensive team orientation -> just another first round exit.


damn:sigh:.

KeithLBC
06-06-2009, 09:45 PM
What does it matter?

They're both losing teams.

It matters because Iverson didn't bring much to the table when he played for the Nuggets. For that matter, he didn't bring much to the table for the Pistons either :laugh2:

cmellofan15
06-06-2009, 09:52 PM
What does it matter?

They're both losing teams.

Sounds like someone's still mad we traded Iverson and got executive of the year. :eyebrow:

Blah Blah Blah
06-06-2009, 10:13 PM
2007 nuggets with AI were 50-32 and there Strength of Schedule was .503% http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi?season=2008&sortColumn=sos

IN 2008 nuggets were 54-28 with CB and there Strength of Schedule was .499%
So y are people saying that the nuggets are waY BETTER with Billups then with AI also the n uggets with Ai there Pf was 9027 and there PA was 8770

And with CB there PF was 8555 and there PA was 8275 thats about the same also the nuggets were the 8th seed in 07 but 2 in 08. to me the nuggets were better with Ai and were more dangerous

Those percentages don't matter like they do for example like in the NFL. The teams play the same teams a certain number of times year in and year out with little exception. Also by looking at the team, it is very obvious that the nuggets flow much much better with Billups there and most importantly their defensive identity was great. This way if they were having an off nite offensively then they had their defense to help win those games. That never happened when Iverson was there.

Raidaz4Life
06-06-2009, 10:23 PM
Probably because they didn't get manhandled by the Lakers in the first round like they did last year.:rolleyes:

DenButsu
06-06-2009, 10:39 PM
damn:sigh:.

Too soon?

Chronz
06-07-2009, 02:07 AM
What does it matter?

They're both losing teams.

Are you serious, isnt the only thing AI fans cling to, the fact that he made the Finals once when the East was at its weakest and he had the best supporting cast in the conference.

Chronz
06-07-2009, 02:18 AM
Wheres Barrelfact to defend AI now?

Chronz
06-07-2009, 02:26 AM
You have "nuggets" in your user name so I don't want to accuse you of not watching Nuggets games......

Despite the tone of his post, the man does have a few solid points. Well just one, being that the West was considerably weaker this year, than last. 4 of the top 5 teams in the West last year were at less than 80% health mostly every game. The Hornets were pretty decimated, Houston lost... no wait, never had a healthy Tmac this year, San Antonio had to endure the loss of Manu, the Lakers were strong as ever, it was beginning to look like Phoenix wouldve made the playoffs if they had never lost Amare and they were never playing to their potential till about midway through the season. How many of these teams can we expect to drop off next year? What would it take for Denver to repeat as #2.

Hotone1401
06-07-2009, 02:45 AM
What does it matter?

They're both losing teams.

It matters because it proves AI is overrated lol. Having Billups in the lineup shored up their defense and it's obvious just by watching this Denver team that they are a much smarter and patient team on offense. It's two totally different teams because they value the ball and each possesion much more than they did with AI. AI sucks and couldn't play a lick of defense.

Hotone1401
06-07-2009, 02:47 AM
Are you serious, isnt the only thing AI fans cling to, the fact that he made the Finals once when the East was at its weakest and he had the best supporting cast in the conference.

^lmao. That is so true!

ivylleague1'
06-07-2009, 03:22 AM
So many AI haters !!! Chronz name a player that has better record both defensively and offensively than Iverson. [U]The best player in the universe!!! Iverson the big East defensive player of the year [/B] is a defensive liability ???

Wilson
06-07-2009, 03:28 AM
It's not about regular season wins. I don't know how many times the Spurs have lead the league in regular season wins, but I do know that they have won four championships in the last ten years.

It comes down to defense. As cliché as it sounds, defense does indeed win championships, and this year's Nuggets just play much better defense than last year's.

ivylleague1'
06-07-2009, 03:34 AM
It's not about regular season wins. I don't know how many times the Spurs have lead the league in regular season wins, but I do know that they have won four championships in the last ten years.

It comes down to defense. As cliché as it sounds, defense does indeed win championships, and this year's Nuggets just play much better defense than last year's.


Very good observation and thinking !!!!

Wilson
06-07-2009, 03:34 AM
You have "nuggets" in your user name so I don't want to accuse you of not watching Nuggets games.

So I'll just ask, and I'm being serious, not sarcastic: How many Nuggets games did you actually watch in the AI era vs. how many games you watched this season after the trade? Because the win/loss records don't even begin to tell the story, really.

The 2008-09 Nuggets were a team that underwent a dramatic transformation from the previous season, completely overhauling their defense, and retooling their offense to less of a run-and-gun and more of a half court oriented game with more set plays and organized schemes. They also of course made a major trade after 3 games, which meant that their key player (in terms of team leadership) was not there during training camp to learn the system or his teammates' games or to play a leadership role. They also dumped Camby off, which left a major void in terms of rebounding that the frontcourt had to adjust to. So given all that change and turbulence, this season's team should have, if anything, lost more games than last season's just by virtue of the fact that it was a transitional season in which they were figuring out what they were doing and how to do it on the fly as they went along. But of course they actually won more, and went on not only to finally get Melo out of the first round for his first time in 6 attempts (something that AI - who sucked bad in both Nuggets' postseasons he was on the roster for - was unable to help him do), but to get through the second round and into the Western Conference Finals, where they put up a respectable fight against a more experienced and talented Lakers team.

So on that level, the proof is just right there in the pudding. Iverson was too much a defensive liability to allow the Nuggets to establish a focused defensive identity, and in fact I'd also argue that due to his either inability or refusal to run an organized, efficient halfcourt offense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDjAygeisHc&feature=channel_page) as he dominated the ball, was an offensive liability as well in spite of the scoring punch he brought to the table.

And that's where the real difference comes into play. Even if the Nuggets had only won 48 games this season, I'd still have argued that this season's team was the better team. They were much more controlled and efficient offensively, their chemistry and cohesion was WORLDS better than it ever was under AI, they played with poise and composure under Billups' leadership and rallied back from big deficits time after time, and most importantly of all they not only started the season out talking about defense (as they also did when AI was on board), but they actually successfully implemented and maintained through the entire season a tough new defensive stance and focus, and a major part of that was getting the players to actually buy into the defensive system - and that was all about Billups. And that's why I ask if you watched many games this season, because all of these differences are really night and day, and to me it's just so easy to see that the quality of basketball, the quality of team play, the quality of mental focus and confidence, is just so much higher now that I've ever seen it, and while not all of the credit for that goes to Chauncey, much of it certainly does.

Bottom line: No Billups-AI trade -> no efficient halfcourt offense or defensive team orientation -> just another first round exit.

Awesome post Den. Agreed, 100%.

Wilson
06-07-2009, 03:36 AM
Very good observation and thinking !!!!

:hi5:

Chronz
06-07-2009, 04:47 AM
It's not about regular season wins. I don't know how many times the Spurs have lead the league in regular season wins, but I do know that they have won four championships in the last ten years.

It comes down to defense. As cliché as it sounds, defense does indeed win championships, and this year's Nuggets just play much better defense than last year's.

Was that in reference to what I was talking about? I really hope not, who else mentioned regular season wins?

And yes its super cliche

DenButsu
06-07-2009, 04:49 AM
Despite the tone of his post, the man does have a few solid points. Well just one, being that the West was considerably weaker this year, than last. 4 of the top 5 teams in the West last year were at less than 80% health mostly every game. The Hornets were pretty decimated, Houston lost... no wait, never had a healthy Tmac this year, San Antonio had to endure the loss of Manu, the Lakers were strong as ever, it was beginning to look like Phoenix wouldve made the playoffs if they had never lost Amare and they were never playing to their potential till about midway through the season. How many of these teams can we expect to drop off next year? What would it take for Denver to repeat as #2.

1) Keeping the current team intact. I think it's pretty clear that with the brief exception of their little post ASB slump, the overall trajectory of the team over the course of the season was one of pretty much steady improvement. Billups, Melo, K-Mart, Nene, and Smith are all locked down. By simply re-signing the Birdman (and perhaps Jones and Carter as well), the team should at least hold steady if not keep getting better just by staying together longer, as they continue developing chemistry, better passing, and playing more comfortably in their new defensive schemes. Which brings me to...

2) Having training camp with Billups. He did a good job of hitting the ground running when he arrived early in the season, but the input he'll have in training camp as team leader and player-coach will be invaluable, I think, in helping the team to work out effective and efficient plays, and to start off with a focus and seriousness right out of the gates that will set a winning tone for the entire season.

3) Making one or two acquisitions, specifically for one knockdown 3 shooter to replace Kleiza (assuming they don't re-sign him), and for one more big who can bring rebounding, size, and hopefully a better jumper than K-Mart or Birdman offers, to the frontcourt. This will be difficult to do under their current salary constraints - it means going deep back into the luxury. But with the MLE and the use of the nearly $10 million trade exception they hold, it should be achievable, and I think given their postseason success Kroenke should be willing to spend on this team.


I think that all of the above happen, Denver's back in the WCF. And 1 and 2 are virtually guaranteed. Denver enters the postseason on fairly solid ground for the first time in a long time.

ARMIN12NBA
06-07-2009, 04:53 AM
1) Keeping the current team intact. I think it's pretty clear that with the brief exception of their little post ASB slump, the overall trajectory of the team over the course of the season was one of pretty much steady improvement. Billups, Melo, K-Mart, Nene, and Smith are all locked down. By simply re-signing the Birdman (and perhaps Jones and Carter as well), the team should at least hold steady if not keep getting better just by staying together longer, as they continue developing chemistry, better passing, and playing more comfortably in their new defensive schemes. Which brings me to...

2) Having training camp with Billups. He did a good job of hitting the ground running when he arrived early in the season, but the input he'll have in training camp as team leader and player-coach will be invaluable, I think, in helping the team to work out effective and efficient plays, and to start off with a focus and seriousness right out of the gates that will set a winning tone for the entire season.

3) Making one or two acquisitions, specifically for one knockdown 3 shooter to replace Kleiza (assuming they don't re-sign him), and for one more big who can bring rebounding, size, and hopefully a better jumper than K-Mart or Birdman offers, to the frontcourt. This will be difficult to do under their current salary constraints - it means going deep back into the luxury. But with the MLE and the use of the nearly $10 million trade exception they hold, it should be achievable, and I think given their postseason success Kroenke should be willing to spend on this team.


I think that all of the above happen, Denver's back in the WCF. And 1 and 2 are virtually guaranteed. Denver enters the postseason on fairly solid ground for the first time in a long time.

:laugh2: In a thread a while ago about what the Nuggets need to do to get better, I made the exact same three points. Very nice.

Wilson
06-07-2009, 05:03 AM
Was that in reference to what I was talking about? I really hope not, who else mentioned regular season wins?

And yes its super cliche

I only read the original post before posting that. The OP mentioned the win-loss records with Iverson and with Billups.

It's super cliche, but it's correct :p

J_M_B
06-07-2009, 07:55 PM
With Billups the Nuggets played much better as a team, they also played better defense and didn't just try to out score their opponent. That is why they went so deep into the playoffs.