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JordansBulls
06-01-2009, 11:12 AM
Is there any way that anyone could say that they would take Yao over Dwight anymore?


I just don't see it anymore. Dwight is not only younger but produces more and is not as injured like Yao is.


Thoughts!!!

Unruly Fan
06-01-2009, 11:25 AM
No brainer.

Dwight = NBA Finals

Yao = Injured

MagicBucsSox
06-01-2009, 11:39 AM
a center that never avg 10 rebs?
he's far more advanced offensive than dwight, but so is mehmet okur,would you take him over the DPOY?

what54!?
06-01-2009, 12:20 PM
A rockets fan can and will. Don't know how but one of them will

Hellcrooner
06-01-2009, 12:25 PM
the only thing that would hold me back is age difference.

But were they the same age i WOULD go with Yao.

Dwight is just a big oaf on steroids i laugh everytime people compares him to shaq, Shaq had FUNDAMENTALS and a good shot and very good Feet Movements Dwight is jsut a phisic Freak believe me 28+ Dwight howard with more fat and less strenght is nto going to be pretty to watch..

what54!?
06-01-2009, 12:28 PM
the only thing that would hold me back is age difference.

But were they the same age i WOULD go with Yao.

Dwight is just a big oaf on steroids i laugh everytime people compares him to shaq, Shaq had FUNDAMENTALS and a good shot and very good Feet Movements Dwight is jsut a phisic Freak believe me 28+ Dwight howard with more fat and less strenght is nto going to be pretty to watch..shaq was just liked dwight when he was younger too. His post moves weren't that developed but he worked on his footwork and post game every year, you know like dwight does.

madiaz3
06-01-2009, 12:32 PM
Yao's injuries are the only thing that would stop me from picking him over Dwight.

Yankees22
06-01-2009, 12:33 PM
I never understood how anybody could pick Yao over Dwight. Dwight Howard is arguably a top 5-7 player in the league in my mind. People insult his offense but he is no bum. He averaged 20 points a game this year and is the best defense presence in the league. Yao is soft there's no way around it. He is a much better offensive player but people really tend to underrate defense especially for big men in my mind. Ben Wallace, during his prime, was a top 10 player in the league and had 0 offense. Dwight Howard could become that good on the defensive end in the near future

Faces
06-01-2009, 12:54 PM
I never understood how anybody could pick Yao over Dwight.

The reason why an actual team would take Yao over Dwight is the billion people in the chinese market you instantly tap into with Yao.

AWC713
06-01-2009, 01:20 PM
im a rockets fan, and i love dwight howard. with that said, yao does have more established post moves, however, he's not anywhere near as dominant as dwight.

on the other hand, dwight does have significant problems playing yao, and can be seen here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&=m&p1=mingya01&=h&p2=howardw01

scroll down to the grey area at the bottom, where it has per game stats when the two play each other.

AGAINST EACH OTHER:

Yao: 23.6 PPG, 10.4 RPG, 2.1 BPG
D-12: 12.2 PPG, 9.8 RPG, 1.7 BPG




Overall, I would rather have Dwight. He's younger and better with the media. He also doesnt have a history of injury problems. With that said, Yao completely dominates him when the two play each other.

theuuord
06-01-2009, 01:24 PM
Is there any way that anyone could say that they would take Yao over Dwight anymore?


I just don't see it anymore. Dwight is not only younger but produces more and is not as injured like Yao is.


Thoughts!!!

Yes, you could.


I wouldn't, but you could make the argument.

AWC713
06-01-2009, 01:24 PM
Here's a great read comparing the two:

http://www.thedreamshake.com/2009/4/7/825187/a-quick-note-on-the-yao-vs-howard

Go read it, he's a very talented writer

kobeonekenobe
06-01-2009, 01:25 PM
if you could guarantee me that yao would stay healthy id pick him over d12. there is no other player in the nba like yao, his length causes so many problems, especially when he steps away from the basket creating space in the paint. Dwight cant do that because he has no shot. U need yao more for offensive and dwight for defense. Depends what teams they are on i guess

Hawkeye15
06-01-2009, 01:30 PM
the only reason to take Yao over Dwight is the financial implications. Yao is an internatiaonal cashcow. But if you want to win games, its Dwight, easy

MAC10TIZZY
06-01-2009, 01:33 PM
the only thing that would hold me back is age difference.

But were they the same age i WOULD go with Yao.

Dwight is just a big oaf on steroids i laugh everytime people compares him to shaq, Shaq had FUNDAMENTALS and a good shot and very good Feet Movements Dwight is jsut a phisic Freak believe me 28+ Dwight howard with more fat and less strenght is nto going to be pretty to watch..

dbd hater!!!!!!!!!

MAC10TIZZY
06-01-2009, 01:35 PM
so do you guys mean to tell me if we(the magic) had yao on our team, we would be in the same position as we are today? nooooooooooooooooooooo

theuuord
06-01-2009, 01:38 PM
(go devil's advocate!)
here's the thing.

When Dwight has an off night, his entire team's offense is compromised. It runs through the fact that he can draw double-teams and free up shooters. If Yao has an off night, he can still do way more to help his team offensively, and it doesn't disrupt the remainder of the flow of offense.

Plus, Yao has been playing at this level consistently for six years (albeit injured for a good portion of the three prior to this one), and Dwight just had his breakout year. His ability to maintain is yet to be seen.

(There's a couple of flaws in this argument, but like I said, I'm just advocating the devil.)

MAC10TIZZY
06-01-2009, 01:43 PM
(go devil's advocate!)
here's the thing.

When Dwight has an off night, his entire team's offense is compromised. It runs through the fact that he can draw double-teams and free up shooters. If Yao has an off night, he can still do way more to help his team offensively, and it doesn't disrupt the remainder of the flow of offense.

Plus, Yao has been playing at this level consistently for six years (albeit injured for a good portion of the three prior to this one), and Dwight just had his breakout year. His ability to maintain is yet to be seen.

(There's a couple of flaws in this argument, but like I said, I'm just advocating the devil.)

isn't this thread about dwight and yao, not what their teams can do if they are having an off night.........cany you even dunk anymore, ive never , ever, ever seen someone soooo tall get tea bagged so many time, kinda like what happend to em' last nite.

prodigy
06-01-2009, 01:46 PM
If Yao was healthy and not injury prone, then mybe yao. But howard is healthy, can run well, and good defender.

prodigy
06-01-2009, 01:47 PM
so do you guys mean to tell me if we(the magic) had yao on our team, we would be in the same position as we are today? nooooooooooooooooooooo

Well Z matches up great against yao. So no you would not. But I think the numbers would be about the same.

MAC10TIZZY
06-01-2009, 01:49 PM
z got schooled and so did the cavs

NYstateofMinD
06-01-2009, 02:05 PM
There could be two ways to look at it. YAO is a huge cashcow and brings in fans. He is dominant on offense, but he rarely plays due to injury. We all know that.

Even healthy, just think about Howard. He is not skilled at all. He is still pure raw talent and with the help of Pat, he can be a top 10 center of all time. Saying all that, I'd pick D12 just because of injuries.

ragee
06-01-2009, 02:21 PM
A lot of people will... Not me though... I sill think Dwight is the best center n the league...

LAKERMANIA
06-01-2009, 02:27 PM
Absolutely not.. Dwight Howard is the better player, period.

lakersrock
06-01-2009, 02:54 PM
I would rather have Yao if he didn't have injuries. He's MUCH harder to defend due to him having a jumper. Plus, he's a better passer too. Because of the injuries, it's a no-brainer to go with Howard.

prodigy
06-01-2009, 02:56 PM
z got schooled and so did the cavs


wow, nice respect loser. You guys will get schooled by the lakers.

MAC10TIZZY
06-01-2009, 03:23 PM
wow, nice respect loser. You guys will get schooled by the lakers.
loser????im a magic fan not a cleveland fan....ha ha ha you guys had everything in your corner....refs, tnt, nba... ..atleast i would man up and congratulate you if you won, id even have the respect to shake your hand(not only that your boy wears a ny hat in his last interview, totally diss to the whole cleveland organization)....and ya your right we may get schooled or even swept(like yall did to the spurs) but atleast we got there....congratulations on another pointless season prodigy........

tbron
06-01-2009, 03:25 PM
as long as there's people there will always be idiots.

Edwin
06-01-2009, 03:30 PM
yao ming is the tim duncan!!!

Chronz
06-01-2009, 03:41 PM
Nope, Ive run out of excuses. Dwights the man





shaq was just liked dwight when he was younger too. His post moves weren't that developed but he worked on his footwork and post game every year, you know like dwight does.

Nothing like Dwight, Shaq had 1 rough year, and then he was monstrous.

Dwight has been developing for about 5 years not and cant touch a year 2 Shaq's post game.

Westbrook36
06-01-2009, 03:45 PM
A huge problem that Dwight Howard has is that his hands are like bricks. He always has to double clutch each catch in the post, he just doesnt have the hands to grab a ball and shoot a 8-15 FT jumper/hook on the spot. The thing that made Hakeem Olajuwon so amazing was that he had these soft hands and he could catch everything and attack right away, but Dwight Howard has to bring the ball down and then go up.

xabial
06-01-2009, 04:00 PM
A huge problem that Dwight Howard has is that his hands are like bricks. He always has to double clutch each catch in the post, he just doesnt have the hands to grab a ball and shoot a 8-15 FT jumper/hook on the spot. The thing that made Hakeem Olajuwon so amazing was that he had these soft hands and he could catch everything and attack right away, but Dwight Howard has to bring the ball down and then go up.

i saw on ESPN that Patrick Ewing is mentoring him on his jumpshot. In due time Dwight should improve

Hellcrooner
06-01-2009, 04:02 PM
Ok ill put an example.

Jimmy Hendrix and Yngwye Malsteem.


Jimmy Hendrix Can Play

Malsteem can Play tooo

who is the better player?

Hendrix

Why?

Malsteem relyes on "athletic" basically being able to perform much faster then Hendrix can to a level that no one can compete with him.


but why Hendrix is the better player?

Because he is mor technical

because he builds soungs and the solo is just to fit the song, he does not build ultrafast solos with a song to be played behind.

because he has the talent and not only the skills.

Hendrix is Yao

malsteem is Dwight.


No one can surpase Hendrix

but im sure there must be someone out there right now that can outplay in velocity Malsteem

MagicBucsSox
06-01-2009, 04:05 PM
the only thing that would hold me back is age difference.

But were they the same age i WOULD go with Yao.

Dwight is just a big oaf on steroids i laugh everytime people compares him to shaq, Shaq had FUNDAMENTALS and a good shot and very good Feet Movements Dwight is jsut a phisic Freak believe me 28+ Dwight howard with more fat and less strenght is nto going to be pretty to watch..
dude shaq got that little hook in 2000. which was what yr 8for him so he was like 29 30 with college experience? he was mature within his game .dwight on yr 5 no college and 23
can we please let him develop and stop treating him like he's 31

juggla53
06-01-2009, 04:08 PM
D12 all day long hes much better deffensivley and everyone bashes his offense and yet he still averages 20ppg who gives a **** whether they are all of put backs or not 20 a game is still 20 a game. Not to mention the fact that yao is the most undepenable player in the NBA and for his size isnt that great of a rebounder. D12 has proven you can build a team around him and yao has yet to prove he can even stay healthy for a whole season

Westbrook36
06-01-2009, 04:08 PM
i saw on ESPN that Patrick Ewing is mentoring him on his jumpshot. In due time Dwight should improve

He will improve but as of right now his hands are terrible but give him some credit for getting better this year. It's just a step by step process that hopefully will work out for him because I love watching him.

juggla53
06-01-2009, 04:10 PM
Ok ill put an example.

Jimmy Hendrix and Yngwye Malsteem.


Jimmy Hendrix Can Play

Malsteem can Play tooo

who is the better player?

Hendrix

Why?

Malsteem relyes on "athletic" basically being able to perform much faster then Hendrix can to a level that no one can compete with him.


but why Hendrix is the better player?

Because he is mor technical

because he builds soungs and the solo is just to fit the song, he does not build ultrafast solos with a song to be played behind.

because he has the talent and not only the skills.

Hendrix is Yao

malsteem is Dwight.


No one can surpase Hendrix

but im sure there must be someone out there right now that can outplay in velocity Malsteem

Hahahaha is your saying Yao is the hendrix of the NBA you need to brush up on your history of music yao is so injury prone its pathetic how can you pick a guy who has proven that he wont be around in the playoffs?

MagicBucsSox
06-01-2009, 04:10 PM
Ok ill put an example.

Jimmy Hendrix and Yngwye Malsteem.


Jimmy Hendrix Can Play

Malsteem can Play tooo

who is the better player?

Hendrix

Why?

Malsteem relyes on "athletic" basically being able to perform much faster then Hendrix can to a level that no one can compete with him.


but why Hendrix is the better player?

Because he is mor technical

because he builds soungs and the solo is just to fit the song, he does not build ultrafast solos with a song to be played behind.

because he has the talent and not only the skills.

Hendrix is Yao

malsteem is Dwight.


No one can surpase Hendrix

but im sure there must be someone out there right now that can outplay in velocity Malsteem

dude your analogy is whack and for all your yao's better nonsense you cant find a category of the game other than ft% that yao's better. and he's the go to guy unlike dwight. he's better offensively? ok so is okur,kaman,camby and others. but dwight average MORE DAMN POINTS THAN ANY CENTER IN THE GAME AND HE'S NOT DEVELOP OFFENSIVELY YET. more boards than any, more blocks. thats a center's job so get off his sack.prepare for thurs night.
id take a rik smits or young mutombo over yao

SeoulBeatz
06-01-2009, 04:13 PM
im gonna have to pick dwight.

yao is a far more advanced fundamental player on offense, but he lacks a killer instinct and is far too soft to will his team to win like Dwight does.

Dwight is a freak and a beast.

yao doesnt have an ounce of "beast" in him and that's the difference IMO.

Yao will never lead a team to the finals, Dwight's here already.

Hellcrooner
06-01-2009, 04:18 PM
ive never liked players that only succed because of a phisical advantage.

Yao knows the Fundamentals if he was 6,7 he woudl still be a laegue player, if dwight was 6,7 he would be at his home right now.

Chronz
06-01-2009, 04:22 PM
So basically your saying if Dwight wasnt Dwight, he wouldnt be DWIGHT?

Players are who they are, you dont judge what they would be if they didnt have those attributes because for all you know, they grewup revolving their entire games off of utilizing those advantages. Yao wouldnt have the same skill set if he werent 7"6 so what kind of fundamentals would we be looking at? You cant say with any sort of certainty but if we're going by what we see now, then can you imagine how bad of a passer Yao would become if here 6"7? He already struggles to make simple kick out passes, imagine if he couldnt see over everyone, Id attend games hoping he'd throw the ball to me in the crowd.

MAC10TIZZY
06-01-2009, 05:06 PM
So basically your saying if Dwight wasnt Dwight, he wouldnt be DWIGHT?

Players are who they are, you dont judge what they would be if they didnt have those attributes because for all you know, they grewup revolving their entire games off of utilizing those advantages. Yao wouldnt have the same skill set if he werent 7"6 so what kind of fundamentals would we be looking at? You cant say with any sort of certainty but if we're going by what we see now, then can you imagine how bad of a passer Yao would become if here 6"7? He already struggles to make simple kick out passes, imagine if he couldnt see over everyone, Id attend games hoping he'd throw the ball to me in the crowd.

nice one!!!

Joshtd1
06-01-2009, 05:22 PM
I still think Yao is the better player, and if he could stay healthy I would pick him no doubt...but since he never is, thats why I would take Dwight.

nrvana
06-01-2009, 05:24 PM
this is the same as lebron or kobe argument. most would pick lebron.. or in this case dwight simply because they're younger.

if everything was equal (age, health).. you'd probably have a lot more people picking yao.

when the game is on the line.. i'm more confident throwing the ball to yao more so than dwight.

kobeonekenobe
06-01-2009, 05:38 PM
dwight is a defensive beast period. but he isnt as good as yao on offense. Alot of Bigs in the nba have an extar weapon to dwight, a mid range j and good hands. Yao, pao gasol, duncan, garnett, Z. If d12 can improve his shot alot and match these guys then he COULD end up better than shaq

theuuord
06-01-2009, 06:30 PM
isn't this thread about dwight and yao, not what their teams can do if they are having an off night.........cany you even dunk anymore, ive never , ever, ever seen someone soooo tall get tea bagged so many time, kinda like what happend to em' last nite.

so being a team player has nothing to do with a player's ability?

:eyebrow:

ManRam
06-01-2009, 07:21 PM
I always thought Yao was better than Dwight, even as a Magic fan.

Yao was much more offensively sound. Dwight wasn't a go-to scorer, at all. Dwight it better defensively, but Yao is also a shot blocker. They are very different players, but I always thought Yao was much more well rounded, with no real weaknesses.

Dwight impressed big time vs. Cleveland. I'm ready to say he's the best big man, but I still want to see him do it vs. the Lakers, and without Z guarding him. Perk held him in check (below season averages in points). He was average vs. Philly too.

Dwight has glaring weaknesses. He is still raw offensively. He can't score efficiently when he has his back to the hoop. He can when he is going face-forward. He is a TO machine when he has to dribble to get to the hoop. He is a horrendous passer. But his athleticism, and amazing defense make up for that. But that sentence is the reason I'm hard on Howard. He can get soooo much better, but I feel like he feels content, and fans feel content with him just relying on athleticism.

ragee
06-01-2009, 07:25 PM
Ok ill put an example.

Jimmy Hendrix and Yngwye Malsteem.


Jimmy Hendrix Can Play

Malsteem can Play tooo

who is the better player?

Hendrix

Why?

Malsteem relyes on "athletic" basically being able to perform much faster then Hendrix can to a level that no one can compete with him.


but why Hendrix is the better player?

Because he is mor technical

because he builds soungs and the solo is just to fit the song, he does not build ultrafast solos with a song to be played behind.

because he has the talent and not only the skills.

Hendrix is Yao

malsteem is Dwight.


No one can surpase Hendrix

but im sure there must be someone out there right now that can outplay in velocity Malsteem

You are forgetting the Defensive side of the argument... Dwight is a much better defender and rebounder than Yao... And Although, Yao is more technical, Dwight is scoring more points...

mikantsass
06-01-2009, 07:35 PM
Is there any way that anyone could say that they would take Yao over Dwight anymore?


I just don't see it anymore. Dwight is not only younger but produces more and is not as injured like Yao is.


Thoughts!!!


I would take most of the starting Centers in the league over Yao. What other 7 foot 6 guy gets blocked by 6 foot 3 shooting guards on a daily basis?

lakersrock
06-01-2009, 07:52 PM
Ok ill put an example.

Jimmy Hendrix and Yngwye Malsteem.


Jimmy Hendrix Can Play

Malsteem can Play tooo

who is the better player?

Hendrix

Why?

Malsteem relyes on "athletic" basically being able to perform much faster then Hendrix can to a level that no one can compete with him.


but why Hendrix is the better player?

Because he is mor technical

because he builds soungs and the solo is just to fit the song, he does not build ultrafast solos with a song to be played behind.

because he has the talent and not only the skills.

Hendrix is Yao

malsteem is Dwight.


No one can surpase Hendrix

but im sure there must be someone out there right now that can outplay in velocity Malsteem

Actually Yngwie is one of the most techincal guitar players there are. He very rarely misses notes. On the other hand, Hendrix (my favorite guitarist) was pretty sloppy most of the time. Also, it's Jimi.

Verbal Christ
06-01-2009, 08:56 PM
I would take most of the starting Centers in the league over Yao. What other 7 foot 6 guy gets blocked by 6 foot 3 shooting guards on a daily basis?

:clap: congrats on the most ridiculous post of 2009!

29$JerZ
06-01-2009, 08:59 PM
I would take Dwight because he has just scratched his potential. Yao is just too injury prone for me to want him at this point.

Yao is a hell of a player but its hard to want him when he has to miss a number of game each year.

JMedrano2006
06-01-2009, 09:17 PM
head to head in a game, im taking Yao over Dwight every time. Look up their matchups, Yao owns him in every category. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, TO BE THE BEST, U GOTTA BEAT THE BEST!!! Dwight just doesnt dominate Yao head to head, which in arguing who is better, i think that matters most. CASE CLOSED KNUCKLE HEADS!!!!

ragee
06-01-2009, 09:31 PM
head to head in a game, im taking Yao over Dwight every time. Look up their matchups, Yao owns him in every category. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, TO BE THE BEST, U GOTTA BEAT THE BEST!!! Dwight just doesnt dominate Yao head to head, which in arguing who is better, i think that matters most. CASE CLOSED KNUCKLE HEADS!!!!

I hate this kind of comments!!!! Deron beats Paul every time they face each other, does that mean he s better?!!!!!! I am a D-will fanby the way so that just goes to show that I am not being biased...

JordansBulls
06-02-2009, 12:12 AM
I hate this kind of comments!!!! Deron beats Paul every time they face each other, does that mean he s better?!!!!!! I am a D-will fanby the way so that just goes to show that I am not being biased...

:nod:

Lakersfan2483
06-02-2009, 12:25 AM
Is there any way that anyone could say that they would take Yao over Dwight anymore?


I just don't see it anymore. Dwight is not only younger but produces more and is not as injured like Yao is.


Thoughts!!!

I would take Dwight over Yao.

JordansBulls
06-02-2009, 08:41 AM
I would take most of the starting Centers in the league over Yao. What other 7 foot 6 guy gets blocked by 6 foot 3 shooting guards on a daily basis?

:speechless:

siralex
06-02-2009, 09:56 AM
loser????im a magic fan not a cleveland fan....ha ha ha you guys had everything in your corner....refs, tnt, nba... ..atleast i would man up and congratulate you if you won, id even have the respect to shake your hand(not only that your boy wears a ny hat in his last interview, totally diss to the whole cleveland organization)....and ya your right we may get schooled or even swept(like yall did to the spurs) but atleast we got there....congratulations on another pointless season prodigy........

i cant believe that im defending a cavs fan, or the cavs in general, but from where im standing it looks to me as though the magic have done nothing in their history to prove themselves as winners. i mean, yeah, the odd finals appearance and all, but youre not much better historically than the cavs...

win a championship.

you can tell that some of these magic fans (not all of you) are so unfamiliar with winning championships, that they are jumping at the chance to talk crap. classless.

anyway, the only reason that i would pick D over yao is the injury thing. and thats it. yao has proven time and time again that he eats howards lunch. so all things equal i would pick yao.

and to the moron who would pick any other center in the league over yao? yeah, you really just proved your basketball knowledge to all of us.

thank you for showing you are an idiot.

siralex
06-02-2009, 09:57 AM
like yall did to the spurs

like yall did to the rockets?

sorry, its guys like this that give your fans a bad name magic fans.

i am pulling for you in these finals, btw, so dont get me wrong. this guy is either 12 years old, or a douche... one or the other.

siralex
06-02-2009, 09:59 AM
and you "rockets fans" make me cry.

time to jump off the bandwagon, i see? its okay. therell be plenty of room for you next season, again.

TheDiggler
06-02-2009, 10:16 AM
D12 easy pick. I would take Howard in a heartbeat over Ming.

macc
06-02-2009, 10:21 AM
(go devil's advocate!)
here's the thing.

When Dwight has an off night, his entire team's offense is compromised. It runs through the fact that he can draw double-teams and free up shooters. If Yao has an off night, he can still do way more to help his team offensively, and it doesn't disrupt the remainder of the flow of offense.

Plus, Yao has been playing at this level consistently for six years (albeit injured for a good portion of the three prior to this one), and Dwight just had his breakout year. His ability to maintain is yet to be seen.

(There's a couple of flaws in this argument, but like I said, I'm just advocating the devil.)


Ya but what's an off night? 7-16? Its very difficult to have an off night when most of his points are put backs and dunks. A shooter who takes 15-20 ft jump shots can be off somtimes, but if all you do is shoot from 5 feet around the basket how do you have an off night? Hense the reason Dwight has been in the top 5 fg% since he joined the league.

macc
06-02-2009, 10:29 AM
Ok ill put an example.

Jimmy Hendrix and Yngwye Malsteem.


Jimmy Hendrix Can Play

Malsteem can Play tooo

who is the better player?

Hendrix

Why?

Malsteem relyes on "athletic" basically being able to perform much faster then Hendrix can to a level that no one can compete with him.


but why Hendrix is the better player?

Because he is mor technical

because he builds soungs and the solo is just to fit the song, he does not build ultrafast solos with a song to be played behind.

because he has the talent and not only the skills.

Hendrix is Yao

malsteem is Dwight.


No one can surpase Hendrix

but im sure there must be someone out there right now that can outplay in velocity Malsteem


The same argument goes for Lebron vs Kobe or even Lebron vs Wade. Talent" wise Kobe and Wade have a bigger bag of tricks, but since Lebron is good enough and has the size and strength he doesn't need to have all the moves of a Dwade Wade or Kobe Bryant. With that being said Lebron is STILL the best or second best player in the league.

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 10:35 AM
Dwight is a very good rebounder and defender, but head-to-head is no contest. Yao absolutely DOMINATES Dwight every time they play. He's not quite the same rebounder and defender against Yao. Someone said Yao can't take a team to the NBA finals is an idoit! If you think Dwight TOOK his team to the finals, you are smoking something. They one the series by 1 point twice and most of the games, the entire team played very good. If the Magic did not have Turkoglu they would not be even close to the Finals!!

macc
06-02-2009, 10:41 AM
I always thought Yao was better than Dwight, even as a Magic fan.

Yao was much more offensively sound. Dwight wasn't a go-to scorer, at all. Dwight it better defensively, but Yao is also a shot blocker. They are very different players, but I always thought Yao was much more well rounded, with no real weaknesses.

Dwight impressed big time vs. Cleveland. I'm ready to say he's the best big man, but I still want to see him do it vs. the Lakers, and without Z guarding him. Perk held him in check (below season averages in points). He was average vs. Philly too.

Dwight has glaring weaknesses. He is still raw offensively. He can't score efficiently when he has his back to the hoop. He can when he is going face-forward. He is a TO machine when he has to dribble to get to the hoop. He is a horrendous passer. But his athleticism, and amazing defense make up for that. But that sentence is the reason I'm hard on Howard. He can get soooo much better, but I feel like he feels content, and fans feel content with him just relying on athleticism.




Hmmm can't say I agree. Yes he can still improve and at age 23 hes gonna improve but his offense isn't that raw. A guy isn't going to avg over 20 pts a game on "raw" offense. You make it sound like he's fumbling the ball all over the place when he gets it. He has a nice turnaround w/ his back to the basket where he drives baseline and either does a reverse dunk or regular. He has a pretty consistant 3-5 ft hook shot (outside of that its not going in) I mean sometimes he catches the ball out to far from the basket and you know its most likely not going in but he's gotten better about passing it out. Shaq did the exact same thing, he was unstoppable 3-5 ft range but just like Howard couldn't make anything beyond that but would still try to a few times during the game.

I also disagree on his passing, I think he's a great passer for a big man. I've seen him get double teamed, watch him raise up and pass it across the court to the open man opposite of him. I think his passing skills are very underrated.

I compare Howard to Lebron quite a bit, there are players at the same position as them that are more "skilled" but don't have the athletic ability as them so therefore Howard and Bron dominate without having the offensive arsonal as others.

Reguardless 56% pg % is the same no matter if it's an ugly 56% or finess 56%. It's still the same. As long as Howard can get the ball into the hoop, no matter how ugly or finess it looks its still 2 points.


Remember he's only 23 years old. He just was able to get into a bar 2 years ago. In two years you won't even see threads like this on him because he shows great improvement from year to year. Look how much he's improved in this year alone? I'm not worried. He'll be fine. Savy

macc
06-02-2009, 10:47 AM
Dwight is a very good rebounder and defender, but head-to-head is no contest. Yao absolutely DOMINATES Dwight every time they play. He's not quite the same rebounder and defender against Yao. Someone said Yao can't take a team to the NBA finals is an idoit! If you think Dwight TOOK his team to the finals, you are smoking something. They one the series by 1 point twice and most of the games, the entire team played very good. If the Magic did not have Turkoglu they would not be even close to the Finals!!



Why do people say Yao dominated Dwight head to head? I didn't know it was Yao vs Dwight, for all these years I thought it was Orlando vs Houston. A player doesn't have to score 40 pts to get the win. What matters is who wins the game and you do what it takes to ensure that, wheather it's 10 pts and 18 rebounds or 35 pts and 10 rebounds. Why are you so obsessed with stats of 2 games throughout and entire year and post season?


That's every Houston Rockets Homer come back, they head to head stats in 2 games throughout the year. To them that is more of an accomplishment than avg more rebounds, blocks, offensive efficieny and fg%, or being the defensive player of the year.

Alright buddy you keep your head to head stats, noone will ever be able to take them from you. I'll stick with everything else I listed above.

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 10:53 AM
Houston won all the games that Yao DOMINATED Dwight... Does that help?

By the way, I think Dwight is a GREAT player, but you cannot teach 7'-6" with great touch and a good shooting ability. The Yao vs. Dwight senario is a good point because I think size can stop Dwight (unless you are Big Z and be the slowest player in the game). Put a large player with speed and he can hinder Dwight's effectiveness. Kendrick Perkins anyone?

favre_4life
06-02-2009, 10:54 AM
Hey wasn't there some ****ing idiot claiming Dwight was overrated? Yah where is he?

SC1211
06-02-2009, 10:58 AM
I love how everyone just relies on Yao being "soft." Please give me an example of this over the course of the season. Was it when he came back after injuring his knee in game 1 against the Lakers? Or about how about when he played an ENTIRE half with a broken foot in game 3, while still putting up 19 and 14? Maybe we can go back to the series against Portland, when he poured in a perfect game in game 1.

Calling Yao soft is such a weak and stock argument that holds absolutely no merit anymore. You could say that a couple years ago, but he is anything but soft. The fact of the matter is, he's the best offensive big man in the game. Don't let the averages fool you, Yao doesn't get many shots in Rick Adelman's offense (around 12 per game, with Van Gundy he had around 17 and put up 25 points per game), and his rebounding, while not as good as Dwight's, isn't in another league. Yao has rebounders like Scola, Landry and Hayes around him to suck up a lot of boards...Dwight has Lewis, Turkoglu and on occasion Gortat, thus Dwight is really one of the few good rebounders on the team. I will give you that Dwight is a better defender (though Yao gets NO credit for how many shots he alters), but Yao is the superior offensive player by a long shot.

Also, for the sake of argument: we should see a significant improvement in Yao's health, as he has been relieved of his duties to the Chinese national team, meaning that this is the first summer in his 12 year career that he won't be playing basketball. You can only put so much stress on a 7'6 body, and having the extra rest each year should help. Remember that he's only 28. So yes, Yao over Dwight if I'm a playoff team, easily.

pippsux
06-02-2009, 10:58 AM
I am a rockets fan and I have been impressed with Howard on both ends and his durability. Gasol has also stepped his game up and no coincidence, both guys are in the finals. Yao needs to get his health right and build on this seasons 2nd round.

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 11:09 AM
For the people that really understand sports...I agree that Yao is not soft. None of us know what it is like being 7'-6" and running up and down the floor. To be honest I think Yao is truly a strong player and works his *** off! He is a great team player and a freak of an athlete! Everyone thinks Dwight is such a freak of an athlete, but there has been players like him before (David Robinson). There has not been another Yao in history! He's has great touch around the basket and usually dominates every game, especially when he actually gets the ball. Rockets fans..You know what I'm talking about.

ManRam
06-02-2009, 11:10 AM
Hmmm can't say I agree. Yes he can still improve and at age 23 hes gonna improve but his offense isn't that raw. A guy isn't going to avg over 20 pts a game on "raw" offense. You make it sound like he's fumbling the ball all over the place when he gets it. He has a nice turnaround w/ his back to the basket where he drives baseline and either does a reverse dunk or regular. He has a pretty consistant 3-5 ft hook shot (outside of that its not going in) I mean sometimes he catches the ball out to far from the basket and you know its most likely not going in but he's gotten better about passing it out. Shaq did the exact same thing, he was unstoppable 3-5 ft range but just like Howard couldn't make anything beyond that but would still try to a few times during the game.

His hook shot is faaaar from consistent. In the playoffs its been downright ugly. He has gotten better with his back to the basket, but vs. Perk, who forced Dwight to have to back him down, he was just average. His best offensive games are games when he dominates the offensive glass. That's a fact. I know I over exaggerate it, but I just don't enjoy watching him get by on athleticism alone. He would be downright unstoppable, and a go-to scorer if he had half the skill Kareem, Patrick, or even Yao had. Imagine his athleticism with their finesse...yikes.


I also disagree on his passing, I think he's a great passer for a big man. I've seen him get double teamed, watch him raise up and pass it across the court to the open man opposite of him. I think his passing skills are very underrated.

I'm not talking skills...i'm talking mentality. He's improved his passing, but he still doesn't pass nearly enough. He showed signs in the Cleveland series, but he settles for bad hook shots over kicking it out to shooters when he's doubled. In our offense, that's unacceptable. The fact is, he averages 1.4 assists a game, and less than 1 assist per game on a three point shot. When you are surrounded by shooters, you have to look to kick it out from time to time. He can create soooo many more open shots if he passed more frequently.


I compare Howard to Lebron quite a bit, there are players at the same position as them that are more "skilled" but don't have the athletic ability as them so therefore Howard and Bron dominate without having the offensive arsonal as others.

They are similar, but I do think LeBron has a lot more offensive skill.


Reguardless 56% pg % is the same no matter if it's an ugly 56% or finess 56%. It's still the same. As long as Howard can get the ball into the hoop, no matter how ugly or finess it looks its still 2 points.

True. I just want to see him dedicate more time towards his offensive game, and his FT shooting. Imagine if he could regularly take his defender one on one, from 10-15 feet out. Imagine if he had a 5-10 foot shot. Imagine if he was a 75% FT shooter. You realize how unstoppable he'd be. I am just not content. I don't want Dwight to start sitting fat and pretty, and be content where he is. He has the potential to be the best if he works on his game.


Remember he's only 23 years old. He just was able to get into a bar 2 years ago. In two years you won't even see threads like this on him because he shows great improvement from year to year. Look how much he's improved in this year alone? I'm not worried. He'll be fine. Savy

I'm not saying he wont be fine. We were comparing Yao to Howard NOW. Yao's game is much more complete. I don't know if he is better now than he was a half a year ago when I remember this debate, but at the time, I thought Yao had far less imperfections in his game.

He will continue to grow...or at least he has all the potential in the world to do so. I just hate when people act like he's perfect, and a go-to scorer...when in reality, he's not. There's a reason why throughout the regular season and the playoffs (besides when Z is guarding him), he never gets the ball in the 4th.

macc
06-02-2009, 11:17 AM
Houston won all the games that Yao DOMINATED Dwight... Does that help?

By the way, I think Dwight is a GREAT player, but you cannot teach 7'-6" with great touch and a good shooting ability. The Yao vs. Dwight senario is a good point because I think size can stop Dwight (unless you are Big Z and be the slowest player in the game). Put a large player with speed and he can hinder Dwight's effectiveness. Kendrick Perkins anyone?



Well then we're lucky that there aren't alot of 7'6'' guys in the league. Once again it's only two games throughout the year anyways. Besides as tall as Yao is, how is he not avg more points, rebounds, fg% blocks and overall dominance on the court than Howard or anyone for that matter? It's because he's soft and breaks easy. Hense the reasons he's injured year after year.

macc
06-02-2009, 11:24 AM
His hook shot is faaaar from consistent. In the playoffs its been downright ugly. He has gotten better with his back to the basket, but vs. Perk, who forced Dwight to have to back him down, he was just average. His best offensive games are games when he dominates the offensive glass. That's a fact. I know I over exaggerate it, but I just don't enjoy watching him get by on athleticism alone. He would be downright unstoppable, and a go-to scorer if he had half the skill Kareem, Patrick, or even Yao had. Imagine his athleticism with their finesse...yikes.



I'm not talking skills...i'm talking mentality. He's improved his passing, but he still doesn't pass nearly enough. He showed signs in the Cleveland series, but he settles for bad hook shots over kicking it out to shooters when he's doubled. In our offense, that's unacceptable. The fact is, he averages 1.4 assists a game, and less than 1 assist per game on a three point shot. When you are surrounded by shooters, you have to look to kick it out from time to time. He can create soooo many more open shots if he passed more frequently.



They are similar, but I do think LeBron has a lot more offensive skill.



True. I just want to see him dedicate more time towards his offensive game, and his FT shooting. Imagine if he could regularly take his defender one on one, from 10-15 feet out. Imagine if he had a 5-10 foot shot. Imagine if he was a 75% FT shooter. You realize how unstoppable he'd be. I am just not content. I don't want Dwight to start sitting fat and pretty, and be content where he is. He has the potential to be the best if he works on his game.



I'm not saying he wont be fine. We were comparing Yao to Howard NOW. Yao's game is much more complete. I don't know if he is better now than he was a half a year ago when I remember this debate, but at the time, I thought Yao had far less imperfections in his game.

He will continue to grow...or at least he has all the potential in the world to do so. I just hate when people act like he's perfect, and a go-to scorer...when in reality, he's not. There's a reason why throughout the regular season and the playoffs (besides when Z is guarding him), he never gets the ball in the 4th.


Well he's been getting the ball in the 4th lately. I agree there are many aspects of his game that he can do better. At age 23 I can't think of a player who was fully developed that young. Even the great MJ had many holes in his game at 23. As long as he continues to improve every year that's fine with me. If he hits a wall before his prime then I will critisize.

With that being said even with all the holes you brought up in his game we're still in the NBA finals w/ him as our anchor.


Yao Ming may have the better offensive skill set but Dwight Howard has "Magic" - I know thats extrememly corny, just thought I would end it in somthing cheesey

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 11:25 AM
Well for you and Dwight, yes we you should be glad there are not many 7'6" guys around because Dwight might not be so great. He might have to even switch positions because he wouldn't be able to play a guy like Yao every night.

Truth is.... Dwight is good against slow and mediocre players and Yao can DOMINATE great players (point again for Yao vs. Dwight head-to-head)

Yao is usually NEVER played one-on-one, especially in the post. I wouldn't bother with double teaming Dwight because he can't do much more than dunk. I would just send him to the line and take the 60 or so FT%.

ManRam
06-02-2009, 11:30 AM
Well he's been getting the ball in the 4th lately. I agree there are many aspects of his game that he can do better. At age 23 I can't think of a player who was fully developed that young. Even the great MJ had many holes in his game at 23. As long as he continues to improve every year that's fine with me. If he hits a wall before his prime then I will critisize.

With that being said even with all the holes you brought up in his game we're still in the NBA finals w/ him as our anchor.


Yao Ming may have the better offensive skill set but Dwight Howard has "Magic" - I know thats extrememly corny, just thought I would end it in somthing cheesey

I agree. Again, I was just looking at the now, not the potential. A half a year ago, before the Magic were in the Finals, before he showed me what he did show me vs. Cleveland, I honestly thought Yao was the more complete player at the time. Not including age or injuries. Dwight is better than Yao, but he isn't some amazingly perfect specimen, and I don't want to see him mentioned with the legends any time soon. That's all.


Well for you and Dwight, yes we you should be glad there are not many 7'6" guys around because Dwight might not be so great. He might have to even switch positions because he wouldn't be able to play a guy like Yao every night.

Truth is.... Dwight is good against slow and mediocre players and Yao can DOMINATE great players (point again for Yao vs. Dwight head-to-head)

Yao is usually NEVER played one-on-one, especially in the post. I wouldn't bother with double teaming Dwight because he can't do much more than dunk. I would just send him to the line and take the 60 or so FT%.

I actually agree 100% with this post. Just look at what Dwight did vs. Perk, and what Dwight did vs. Z. That's why I'm not acting like Dwight finally has become a dominant scorer because of the Cleveland series. Cleveland's bigs vs. Dwight is a joke. Prior to that series, Dwight was never being doubled in the playoffs. That IS the difference between the two. Howard can dominate the guys he should dominate, but he can't dominate everyone. I think Yao does better vs. elite defenders than Dwight.

macc
06-02-2009, 11:43 AM
Well for you and Dwight, yes we you should be glad there are not many 7'6" guys around because Dwight might not be so great. He might have to even switch positions because he wouldn't be able to play a guy like Yao every night.

Truth is.... Dwight is good against slow and mediocre players and Yao can DOMINATE great players (point again for Yao vs. Dwight head-to-head)

Yao is usually NEVER played one-on-one, especially in the post. I wouldn't bother with double teaming Dwight because he can't do much more than dunk. I would just send him to the line and take the 60 or so FT%.



If Yao dominates so much why are his numbers so mediocre? You say Dwight is good against slow players but what does that say for Yao? They do play in the same league right? Except Howard dominates much more than Yao does and his avg back that up. Whats your point in saying that?

Gibby23
06-02-2009, 11:50 AM
If healthy, Yao is better. The Rockets would be the best team in the East.

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 11:52 AM
If Yao dominates so much why are his numbers so mediocre? You say Dwight is good against slow players but what does that say for Yao? They do play in the same league right? Except Howard dominates much more than Yao does. Whats your point in saying that?

My point is that Yao DOMINATES Dwight head-to-head. Dwight is Defensive Player of the Year and he can't defend Yao.

Another point is that there are not many great big men in the league. You have to compare players head-to-head. Hakeem Vs. Shaq, Hakeem vs. D. Robinson, Hakeem vs. Ewing. Can't you agree that Hakeem was the best player of the 4? He was the best because of head-to-head match-ups.

Also, by the way....Dwight was complaining about not getting the ball at the end of game in the series against Boston. Yao never complains he does not get the ball. If Yao got the ball as much as most players, he would lead the league in scoring. You can't stop him in the post. He is limited by the schemes and the team play.

Also, be thankful Garnett did not play this year against Howard. He would also stop Howard in the post.

ManRam
06-02-2009, 11:57 AM
If Yao dominates so much why are his numbers so mediocre? You say Dwight is good against slow players but what does that say for Yao? They do play in the same league right? Except Howard dominates much more than Yao does and his avg back that up. Whats your point in saying that?

First off, by the context of the last few posts...I assume we're talking primarilly about offense here...

Yao averaged 19.7 points a game this year. He scored 25 points a game two years ago...that's mediocre? Dwight scored 20.4 this year. His career high is 20.7 points. Those numbers look pretty similar to me...

Dwight is better because he can create his own shots off of offensive rebounds, and broken plays, and is unstoppable if he catches it near the hoop. Yao is better because he can create his own shot with the ball in his hand anywhere on the court. They're different offensive players. Yao is more skilled, Dwight is more athletic. They know their strengths and utilize them. That's why it's hard to compare them. If you mixed the two, you'd have the best big man ever.

But to say that Yao's offensive numbers are mediocre is crazy.

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 11:58 AM
If Yao dominates so much why are his numbers so mediocre? You say Dwight is good against slow players but what does that say for Yao? They do play in the same league right? Except Howard dominates much more than Yao does and his avg back that up. Whats your point in saying that?

I would not say 20 and 10 is mediocre. Yao's numbers are with the greats in the league right now.

The only argument you can win, is that Yao does not stay healthy. Who knows where Houston would be if he does not consistantly get hurt?

Rockets play in the West with better teams top-to-bottom, with better Bigs. Howard plays in the East, with no great bigs except for Garnett and he plays the position Howard should be playing, Power Forward.

macc
06-02-2009, 12:01 PM
I love how everyone just relies on Yao being "soft." Please give me an example of this over the course of the season. Was it when he came back after injuring his knee in game 1 against the Lakers? Or about how about when he played an ENTIRE half with a broken foot in game 3, while still putting up 19 and 14? Maybe we can go back to the series against Portland, when he poured in a perfect game in game 1.

Calling Yao soft is such a weak and stock argument that holds absolutely no merit anymore. You could say that a couple years ago, but he is anything but soft. The fact of the matter is, he's the best offensive big man in the game. Don't let the averages fool you, Yao doesn't get many shots in Rick Adelman's offense (around 12 per game, with Van Gundy he had around 17 and put up 25 points per game), and his rebounding, while not as good as Dwight's, isn't in another league. Yao has rebounders like Scola, Landry and Hayes around him to suck up a lot of boards...Dwight has Lewis, Turkoglu and on occasion Gortat, thus Dwight is really one of the few good rebounders on the team. I will give you that Dwight is a better defender (though Yao gets NO credit for how many shots he alters), but Yao is the superior offensive player by a long shot.

Also, for the sake of argument: we should see a significant improvement in Yao's health, as he has been relieved of his duties to the Chinese national team, meaning that this is the first summer in his 12 year career that he won't be playing basketball. You can only put so much stress on a 7'6 body, and having the extra rest each year should help. Remember that he's only 28. So yes, Yao over Dwight if I'm a playoff team, easily.


Reasons Yao is soft

1) Doesn't demand the ball enough
2) Affraid of contact a (he doesn't bang with anyone)
3) Nate Robinson stuffed Yao Ming
4) For how big he is he spends to much time on the peremeter, he should be dominating downlow.
5) He is not that powerful for his size
6) soft hands, you can't just throw the ball hard into him, he'll drop it. You have to "float" it to him in order for him to catch it.
7)He's lanky and clumsy
8)He's 7'6'' and doesn't block shots that well
9) He's 7'6'' and is only an avg rebounder for his size.


Yes he showed heart and played those games. He also "couldn't finish" the series and ended up watching his team lose in 7.

Yes I know it wouldn't be easy being that tall, the NBA is tough and and really grind on his body, reguardless the NBA doesn't care and players are judged on what they do on the court, if he can't make it a full season, how can you say he's not soft?


Centers who are not soft - Howard, Shaq, Okufur, Perkins, Oden, Curry, Brand, Camby, K Mart, Nene.

On Yaos credit, his finess and footwork are what make him valuable. If he didn't have finess and footwork he would just be another Shawn Bradley. Though Bradley was a better defender than Yao.

JordansBulls
06-02-2009, 12:01 PM
If healthy, Yao is better. The Rockets would be the best team in the East.

How do you figure that?

macc
06-02-2009, 12:06 PM
My point is that Yao DOMINATES Dwight head-to-head. Dwight is Defensive Player of the Year and he can't defend Yao.

Another point is that there are not many great big men in the league. You have to compare players head-to-head. Hakeem Vs. Shaq, Hakeem vs. D. Robinson, Hakeem vs. Ewing. Can't you agree that Hakeem was the best player of the 4? He was the best because of head-to-head match-ups.

Also, by the way....Dwight was complaining about not getting the ball at the end of game in the series against Boston. Yao never complains he does not get the ball. If Yao got the ball as much as most players, he would lead the league in scoring. You can't stop him in the post. He is limited by the schemes and the team play.

Also, be thankful Garnett did not play this year against Howard. He would also stop Howard in the post.



Thats what I don't like about Yao. He doesn't demand the ball and he should, his offensive game is almost unstoppable. I put Hakeem and Shaq as the best, I seen both careers and respect both. Either way his head to head isn't what made him great its the fact that Shaq has 4 rings and Hakeem has 3.

You're telling me that if Hakeem never won a ring in his career that people would still put him on the top because of his "head to head" battles with great centers? Come on man, you know better than that. Or at least I hope you do.

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 12:07 PM
How do you figure that?

He figures that because the Rockets beat the Magic every game this year and made Dwight look ordinary. They also beat the Celtics at home. They beat all the very few good teams in the East. Rockets would be a major power in the East because the East has no good big men, outside of Howard and Garnett. Remember, Rockets took the Lakers to the brink of elimination without Yao and McGrady and Mutumbo.

macc
06-02-2009, 12:08 PM
First off, by the context of the last few posts...I assume we're talking primarilly about offense here...

Yao averaged 19.7 points a game this year. He scored 25 points a game two years ago...that's mediocre? Dwight scored 20.4 this year. His career high is 20.7 points. Those numbers look pretty similar to me...

Dwight is better because he can create his own shots off of offensive rebounds, and broken plays, and is unstoppable if he catches it near the hoop. Yao is better because he can create his own shot with the ball in his hand anywhere on the court. They're different offensive players. Yao is more skilled, Dwight is more athletic. They know their strengths and utilize them. That's why it's hard to compare them. If you mixed the two, you'd have the best big man ever.

But to say that Yao's offensive numbers are mediocre is crazy.


You didn't read the entire passage. He said Dwight only dominates against mediocre and slow centers, I brought up the point that both players play in the same league and play the same centers but yet Dwights avgs are higher than Yaos in pretty much every catagory so what does that say for Yao

BenFrank
06-02-2009, 12:10 PM
I was one of the guy's that defended Yao as the best center in the league.. after injury, and injury, and the improvment of Howards offensive game, and freethrows.. I have to admit, he's surpassed the great wall, and is hands down the best center in the league.. and this is comeing from a true rockets fan

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 12:15 PM
Thats what I don't like about Yao. He doesn't demand the ball and he should, his offensive game is almost unstoppable. I put Hakeem and Shaq as the best, I seen both careers and respect both. Either way his head to head isn't what made him great its the fact that Shaq has 4 rings and Hakeem has 3.

You're telling me that if Hakeem never won a ring in his career that people would still put him on the top because of his "head to head" battles with great centers? Come on man, you know better than that. Or at least I hope you do.

Hakeem had 2 rings and both were against the best at the time (Shaq & Ewing). He crushed D.Robinson in the West finals. I believe he was the best because yes.... he dominated all the greats. Rings are team accomplishments, no matter what anyone thinks. A player cannot win a ring by himself. Even Jordan could not do it. He played on great teams. The judgement of a player is how he dominates his opposition and how he makes his team better. Head-to-head matters! The great players take on each other in critical possessions every time!

macc
06-02-2009, 12:26 PM
Hakeem had 2 rings and both were against the best at the time (Shaq & Ewing). He crushed D.Robinson in the West finals. I believe he was the best because yes.... he dominated all the greats. Rings are team accomplishments, no matter what anyone thinks. A player cannot win a ring by himself. Even Jordan could not do it. He played on great teams. The judgement of a player is how he dominates his opposition and how he makes his team better. Head-to-head matters! The great players take on each other in critical possessions every time!

Yes I stand corrected, Hakeem had 2 rings not 3.


Ok let me ask you this. Do you think Yao Ming had a more successful year than Howard because he had better stats then him in their 2 meetings this year or Howard being in the finals and possibly winning a championship? Which is more successful this year?

J-Relo
06-02-2009, 12:32 PM
it seems like Howard is being overrated

macc
06-02-2009, 12:35 PM
it seems like Howard is being overrated




Ya I agree, 23 yrs old, went through Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Lebron James and now in the finals. Waaaaaay overrated.

ManRam
06-02-2009, 12:46 PM
Ya I agree, 23 yrs old, went through Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Lebron James and now in the finals. Waaaaaay overrated.

Rafer Alston went through Andre Miller, Rajon Rondo (who went through Derrick Rose) and Mo Williams...is he a better PG than all of them? ;) That logic does not work.

He is overrated by some, but most see him for what he is. The ones who think he is flat out dominant and a go-to scorer are overrating him. The ones who were saying in the Boston series that Howard should be getting 20 shots a game were overrating him. He is the best center in the game, but that's almost by default. Yes he's young, but he has a lot to work on. Until he polishes off his game, he will be overrated by some.

The only reason I am on his case sometimes is because I hate watching him get by on athleticism. I just see all the potential in the world in him, and I haven't seen the progress offensively yet to make me happy. He could be the best ever if he worked on other aspects of his game. His potential is unearthly. But it is still potential. When people mix the potential with the reality, they begin to overrate him. Being young doesn't negate the fact that his game has flaws.

J-Relo
06-02-2009, 12:49 PM
Ya I agree, 23 yrs old, went through Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Lebron James and now in the finals. Waaaaaay overrated.

not he, but they went through... he is overrated

macc
06-02-2009, 12:51 PM
Rafer Alston went through Andre Miller, Rajon Rondo (who went through Derrick Rose) and Mo Williams...is he a better PG than all of them? ;) That logic does not work.

He is overrated by some, but most see him for what he is. The ones who think he is flat out dominant and a go-to scorer are overrating him. The ones who were saying in the Boston series that Howard should be getting 20 shots a game were overrating him. He is the best center in the game, but that's almost by default. Yes he's young, but he has a lot to work on. Until he polishes off his game, he will be overrated by some.

The only reason I am on his case sometimes is because I hate watching him get by on athleticism. I just see all the potential in the world in him, and I haven't seen the progress offensively yet to make me happy. He could be the best ever if he worked on other aspects of his game. His potential is unearthly. But it is still potential. When people mix the potential with the reality, they begin to overrate him. Being young doesn't negate the fact that his game has flaws.



But Alston wasn't the main reason we won, Howard was, the offense starts with him and the defense is anchored by him. So yes my logic does work there.

In any case I'll just be quiet for now and let Howards finals appearance at 23 yrs old do the talking. I can sit here and nit pick every NBA players game and I promise I would find a fault(s) for all of them. Winning is what matters, not being a perfect basketball player. So I'm gonna cut him some slack. Like I said, until he stops improving I'm not gonna get on his case.

AstRocTex
06-02-2009, 12:58 PM
Yes I stand corrected, Hakeem had 2 rings not 3.


Ok let me ask you this. Do you think Yao Ming had a more successful year than Howard because he had better stats then him in their 2 meetings this year or Howard being in the finals and possibly winning a championship? Which is more successful this year?

Yao did not have as a successful year as Howard, but overall I feel he is the better player. One year is not everything.

Make sure you don't get ahead of yourself with these finals coming up. Howard is going to have a tough series with the Lakers. The Lakers are very good and their Bigs are more than capable with handling Howard's game.

I will regress, but I do want you to know that I DO believe Howard is an outstanding player. He is one of the best players and people in the game. Much respect.

Chronz
06-02-2009, 01:15 PM
I know what you mean about players having better years, but not being better overall players, but after the last few years can you really say hes only having 1 better year? Hes had several better years already. I think its dead even, but I have to give Dwight the nod right now.

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 01:19 PM
i cant believe that im defending a cavs fan, or the cavs in general, but from where im standing it looks to me as though the magic have done nothing in their history to prove themselves as winners. i mean, yeah, the odd finals appearance and all, but youre not much better historically than the cavs...

win a championship.

you can tell that some of these magic fans (not all of you) are so unfamiliar with winning championships, that they are jumping at the chance to talk crap. classless.

dbd!!!

anyway, the only reason that i would pick D over yao is the injury thing. and thats it. yao has proven time and time again that he eats howards lunch. so all things equal i would pick yao.




and to the moron who would pick any other center in the league over yao? yeah, you really just proved your basketball knowledge to all of us.

thank you for showing you are an idiot.

you sound miserable dude :-( are you ok?

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 01:24 PM
like yall did to the rockets?

sorry, its guys like this that give your fans a bad name magic fans.

i am pulling for you in these finals, btw, so dont get me wrong. this guy is either 12 years old, or a douche... one or the other.

another bandwagon magic fan!!!!!!! please stay in cleveland if all your gonna o is poke fun at people. was anybody on our team now in the finals when we lost to the rockets....nooooo....was it 13 years ago(according to you i wasn't even born yet)... tell me cavs fan(now a magic fan????weird) how many of your players still on the team were on the team when they got swept?

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 01:28 PM
and you "rockets fans" make me cry.

time to jump off the bandwagon, i see? its okay. therell be plenty of room for you next season, again.

please tell me that is not a picture of you! no wonder why you are so miserable, and an extremely confused fan.........so i will stop retaliating to you before i get in trouble for this, i have a serious series that i need to be here for support with my fellow 4% magic fans...love bein the underdogs

josephb
06-02-2009, 01:36 PM
The only thing I dislike about DH12 is I don't see the desire in him that I see in other players. (kobe, tim duncan, etc) it seems like everytime i see him put up a shot, he just turns around and runs the other way, even if the rebound would've went right to him. If you take Howard's athleticism and match it with someone like shaq's enthusiasm i say you would have one heck of a player.

ManRam
06-02-2009, 04:16 PM
But Alston wasn't the main reason we won, Howard was, the offense starts with him and the defense is anchored by him. So yes my logic does work there.

In any case I'll just be quiet for now and let Howards finals appearance at 23 yrs old do the talking. I can sit here and nit pick every NBA players game and I promise I would find a fault(s) for all of them. Winning is what matters, not being a perfect basketball player. So I'm gonna cut him some slack. Like I said, until he stops improving I'm not gonna get on his case.

The offense does not start with Howard. And if you honestly think that I don't know what team you've been watching all year. He is the biggest reason, but his impact isn't significantly more than Hedo and Shard's. They mean almost just as much.

macc
06-02-2009, 04:39 PM
The offense does not start with Howard. And if you honestly think that I don't know what team you've been watching all year. He is the biggest reason, but his impact isn't significantly more than Hedo and Shard's. They mean almost just as much.


"Ideally" our offense starts with Howard. Look at our team as a whole. You have a dominant big man surrounded by a bunch of shooters. Where would you guess the offense started? Lewis and Turk are big parts of it but it's not ultimately our offensive plan to give the ball to Lewis and let him create unless he presents a mismatch. Turk can create his own shot but the only case you can make with him is the fact that they utilize the screen and roll well. The big advantage with Turk is that he's 6'10'' and can see over most defenders so he can tell weather to drive or dish.

When you have 3-4 all stars on the same team you can use different options and they work well but "ultimately" our biggest advantage is feeding Howard the ball downlow, when the defense collapses he passes out to the open shooter. If they don't he takes a high percentage shot (highest percentage on our team) and gets an easy basket.

We only have one superstar on our team and I'm sorry but you're not going to convince me that our main offense is run/should be run through somone other than our Superstar as the first option.

Stubborn aren't I :)

Verbal Christ
06-02-2009, 04:54 PM
another bandwagon magic fan!!!!!!! please stay in cleveland if all your gonna o is poke fun at people. was anybody on our team now in the finals when we lost to the rockets....nooooo....was it 13 years ago(according to you i wasn't even born yet)... tell me cavs fan(now a magic fan????weird) how many of your players still on the team were on the team when they got swept?

what the hell are you babbling about? there are two teams left, people will either pull for one team or the other, how does that make them bandwagon fans? that term is usually reserved for that cities fans who decide to jump on or off depending on their teams success/failure mmmkay, cue the old espn commercial where the buttocks wants to speak his 'mind' ... geeez.

ManRam
06-02-2009, 04:56 PM
"Ideally" our offense starts with Howard. Look at our team as a whole. You have a dominant big man surrounded by a bunch of shooters. Where would you guess the offense started? Lewis and Turk are big parts of it but it's not ultimately our offensive plan to give the ball to Lewis and let him create unless he presents a mismatch. Turk can create his own shot but the only case you can make with him is the fact that they utilize the screen and roll well. The big advantage with Turk is that he's 6'10'' and can see over most defenders so he can tell weather to drive or dish.

When you have 3-4 all stars on the same team you can use different options and they work well but "ultimately" our biggest advantage is feeding Howard the ball downlow, when the defense collapses he passes out to the open shooter. If they don't he takes a high percentage shot (highest percentage on our team) and gets an easy basket.

We only have one superstar on our team and I'm sorry but you're not going to convince me that our main offense is run/should be run through somone other than our Superstar as the first option.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't think our game plan is ever "get the ball to Dwight". At times it is, vs. certain teams it is (like Cle, who doesn't have someone who can guard him), but the majority of the time, "get Dwight the ball" is no at all our primary focus on offense.

We have one superstar...sure. But he isn't an offensive superstar. He's not a go-to scorer (despite what a few games in one series shows), and he isn't where our offense starts. Just look at our 4th quarter strategy all year...the biggest determinant I think of how our offense runs. Turk and Lewis average more points in the 4th than Howard. Until a few games vs. the Cavs, Howard was never getting the ball in the 4th, because it's clear he's not a go-to scorer. I'd venture a guess that he makes up less than 20% of the teams touches. If he's what starts the offense, he is going to be a much bigger focal point.

Yes, he makes things easier, but that doesn't mean the offense starts with him. You could argue that having great shooters opens up the paint for him a lot. It goes both ways.

EDIT: When it comes to Dwight...I'll be just as stubborn ;)

Verbal Christ
06-02-2009, 05:18 PM
Reasons Yao is soft

1) Doesn't demand the ball enough
2) Affraid of contact a (he doesn't bang with anyone)
3) Nate Robinson stuffed Yao Ming
4) For how big he is he spends to much time on the peremeter, he should be dominating downlow.
5) He is not that powerful for his size
6) soft hands, you can't just throw the ball hard into him, he'll drop it. You have to "float" it to him in order for him to catch it.
7)He's lanky and clumsy
8)He's 7'6'' and doesn't block shots that well
9) He's 7'6'' and is only an avg rebounder for his size.


Yes he showed heart and played those games. He also "couldn't finish" the series and ended up watching his team lose in 7.

Yes I know it wouldn't be easy being that tall, the NBA is tough and and really grind on his body, reguardless the NBA doesn't care and players are judged on what they do on the court, if he can't make it a full season, how can you say he's not soft?


Centers who are not soft - Howard, Shaq, Okufur, Perkins, Oden, Curry, Brand, Camby, K Mart, Nene.

On Yaos credit, his finess and footwork are what make him valuable. If he didn't have finess and footwork he would just be another Shawn Bradley. Though Bradley was a better defender than Yao.

wow, do you even watch basketball? EVER? this post is by far the most skewed of them all.

1. demand the ball? you mean like calling out his coach? nah, yao is not that kind of player, he will suck it up and do his best regardless of coaching philosophy, and for only getting 12 touches per game i think he is pretty efficient.
2. afraid of contact?? LMFAO that is so funny really. next time you watch yao play, he is ALWAYS the initiator of contact, dude look at how his arms look like ground beef from all the 'defenders' he has to take it easy on otherwise the obligatory offensive foul gets called. that is a really dumb comment to make showing exactly how much you watch yao play.
3. one particular incident makes your top 5? wow, so dwight has never been blocked by an undersized player?? hmmmm last i checked nate had like a 50 inch vertical and just won the slam dunk title, nothing shameful about being blocked by him regardless of height, im certain nate blocks a bunch of big guys.
4. yet another comment made without actually watching rocket basketball. yao will always,always,ALWAYS start down low, not on the 'paremeter' as you state, he will sometimes pop out to the elbow and hit the sweet 15-18 footer, but to say he spends too much time on the PERIMETER is a grossly malinformed opinion.
5. he is not that powerful?? HAHAHAHAH god this keeps getting better. yao himself has said publicly that he CANT USE ALL OF IS STRENGTH OR 'POWER' because he will no doubt get called for an offensive foul, usually by floppers, how is that his fault? he's come a looong way since his first few years when he'd just toss people aside but in turn have to hit the bench with foul trouble, dude seriously you should check yourself, your whole post is twisted.
6. its actually the other way around, he cant catch floaters because the defender will go around him for the steal and because yao isnt as athletic to go up and catch them, yao has said time and time again he prefers strong,crisp entry passes, but im sure you've dont your research and knew that.
7. i wouldnt call a 7'6 310 lb guy lanky mmmkay, yes he can be clumsy at times but lanky is just another hateful jab at the guy.
8. shot blocking has more to do with timing and athletic ability than size alone. regardless he still averages around 2 per game and how many shots does he alter in the paint with his 'size' ???
9. yao plays on a team where there are 3-4 other legit rebounders, that will no doubt affect his rebounding numbers, yao does a great job boxing out and getting the boards he's supposed to.


why dont you actually watch some rocket games next time before posting jibberish and random opinions that seem to be eminating from some other orifice mmkay. have a good one.

JordansBulls
06-02-2009, 05:22 PM
Rafer Alston went through Andre Miller, Rajon Rondo (who went through Derrick Rose) and Mo Williams...is he a better PG than all of them? ;) That logic does not work.



You have got to be kidding me here.

theuuord
06-02-2009, 05:24 PM
You have got to be kidding me here.

Personally, I think it's just as dumb as saying Howard got through Pierce and James. If you're actually using this logic, Howard got through Sam Dalembert, Kendrick Perkins, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

siralex
06-02-2009, 05:29 PM
please tell me that is not a picture of you! no wonder why you are so miserable, and an extremely confused fan.........so i will stop retaliating to you before i get in trouble for this, i have a serious series that i need to be here for support with my fellow 4% magic fans...love bein the underdogs

13 years old. tops.

win a championship.

ManRam
06-02-2009, 05:32 PM
You have got to be kidding me here.

Uh...I was. I was pointing out that I thought macc's logic was..well...illogical.


Personally, I think it's just as dumb as saying Howard got through Pierce and James. If you're actually using this logic, Howard got through Sam Dalembert, Kendrick Perkins, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

You got it. Yay! :clap::clap:

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 05:49 PM
[/B][/B].

Also, for the sake of argument: we should see a significant improvement in Yao's health, as he has been relieved of his duties to the Chinese national team, meaning that this is the first summer in his 12 year career that he won't be playing basketball. You can only put so much stress on a 7'6 body, and having the extra rest each year should help. Remember that he's only 28. So yes, Yao over Dwight if I'm a playoff team, easily.

what? so are you telling me yao has been in the nba since he was 16????

theuuord
06-02-2009, 05:50 PM
what? so are you telling me yao has been in the nba since he was 16????

He's been playing professional basketball since then. Remember, he played for the Chinese national team.

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 06:04 PM
The only thing I dislike about DH12 is I don't see the desire in him that I see in other players. (kobe, tim duncan, etc) it seems like everytime i see him put up a shot, he just turns around and runs the other way, even if the rebound would've went right to him. If you take Howard's athleticism and match it with someone like shaq's enthusiasm i say you would have one heck of a player.

that is why we are tops in transition "D van gundy rips them if they gamble on an offensive rebound

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 06:13 PM
wow, do you even watch basketball? EVER? this post is by far the most skewed of them all.

1. demand the ball? you mean like calling out his coach? nah, yao is not that kind of player, he will suck it up and do his best regardless of coaching philosophy, and for only getting 12 touches per game i think he is pretty efficient.
2. afraid of contact?? LMFAO that is so funny really. next time you watch yao play, he is ALWAYS the initiator of contact, dude look at how his arms look like ground beef from all the 'defenders' he has to take it easy on otherwise the obligatory offensive foul gets called. that is a really dumb comment to make showing exactly how much you watch yao play.
3. one particular incident makes your top 5? wow, so dwight has never been blocked by an undersized player?? hmmmm last i checked nate had like a 50 inch vertical and just won the slam dunk title, nothing shameful about being blocked by him regardless of height, im certain nate blocks a bunch of big guys.
4. yet another comment made without actually watching rocket basketball. yao will always,always,ALWAYS start down low, not on the 'paremeter' as you state, he will sometimes pop out to the elbow and hit the sweet 15-18 footer, but to say he spends too much time on the PERIMETER is a grossly malinformed opinion.
5. he is not that powerful?? HAHAHAHAH god this keeps getting better. yao himself has said publicly that he CANT USE ALL OF IS STRENGTH OR 'POWER' because he will no doubt get called for an offensive foul, usually by floppers, how is that his fault? he's come a looong way since his first few years when he'd just toss people aside but in turn have to hit the bench with foul trouble, dude seriously you should check yourself, your whole post is twisted.
6. its actually the other way around, he cant catch floaters because the defender will go around him for the steal and because yao isnt as athletic to go up and catch them, yao has said time and time again he prefers strong,crisp entry passes, but im sure you've dont your research and knew that.
7. i wouldnt call a 7'6 310 lb guy lanky mmmkay, yes he can be clumsy at times but lanky is just another hateful jab at the guy.
8. shot blocking has more to do with timing and athletic ability than size alone. regardless he still averages around 2 per game and how many shots does he alter in the paint with his 'size' ???
9. yao plays on a team where there are 3-4 other legit rebounders, that will no doubt affect his rebounding numbers, yao does a great job boxing out and getting the boards he's supposed to.


why dont you actually watch some rocket games next time before posting jibberish and random opinions that seem to be eminating from some other orifice mmkay. have a good one.


when is the next game?

SC1211
06-02-2009, 06:19 PM
when is the next game?

Hahahaha.

I think laughing is the only legit response to your posts.

I fail to see anyone that's properly disputed my previous post with good analysis. If you are a playoff team, Yao is the superior choice. I guarantee you that if Yao played the "big men" out in the East more often, he would be just as dominant, if not more so than Dwight. By the way, Yao has been playing pro basketball year round since he was 16. That was a correct statement.

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 06:23 PM
13 years old. tops.

win a championship.

i would say the same to you ...buttt...unfortunately we beat you...cleveland is by far the laughing stock of the nba right now, way to go lebron, way to lose the love of the guy(stern) who did everything he could to get you in the finals...and im thirty, just old enough to know Cleveland has waited longer than any other city with three major sports franchises to win a title. The last time a Cleveland professional sports team won a championship was in 1964 when the Cleveland Browns won the NFL Championship (pre-Super Bowl era). The Cleveland Indians last won the World Series in 1948 (the second-longest drought in MLB, after the Cubs) and the Cleveland Cavaliers have also never won an NBA championship. The city even had a short-lived NHL hockey team called The Barons, which never won a championship either. In 2007, the Cavaliers advanced to the NBA Finals in the city's first championship game since the 1997 World Series, but were swept by the San Antonio Spurs. In 2004, ****ESPN named Cleveland the most tortured sports city in America***

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 06:27 PM
Hahahaha.

I think laughing is the only legit response to your posts.

I fail to see anyone that's properly disputed my previous post with good analysis. If you are a playoff team, Yao is the superior choice. I guarantee you that if Yao played the "big men" out in the East more often, he would be just as dominant, if not more so than Dwight. By the way, Yao has been playing pro basketball year round since he was 16. That was a correct statement.

ha ha ha finally a good sport,you know i was just f'n with ya....we know yao beats up on dwight. i love dwight(no homo) would even consider nameing my son, daughter, or dog after(lmao) but he disapears when yao is in town, and if any magic fans tells you otherwise, then they dont know jack...but i believe the question was who would i take , and i my friend would take dwight.......GO MAGIC...+

dee279
06-02-2009, 06:52 PM
Ive been saying Dwight was the best Center in the league for a long time now.

siralex
06-02-2009, 07:20 PM
i would say the same to you ...buttt...unfortunately we beat you...cleveland is by far the laughing stock of the nba right now, way to go lebron, way to lose the love of the guy(stern) who did everything he could to get you in the finals...and im thirty, just old enough to know Cleveland has waited longer than any other city with three major sports franchises to win a title. The last time a Cleveland professional sports team won a championship was in 1964 when the Cleveland Browns won the NFL Championship (pre-Super Bowl era). The Cleveland Indians last won the World Series in 1948 (the second-longest drought in MLB, after the Cubs) and the Cleveland Cavaliers have also never won an NBA championship. The city even had a short-lived NHL hockey team called The Barons, which never won a championship either. In 2007, the Cavaliers advanced to the NBA Finals in the city's first championship game since the 1997 World Series, but were swept by the San Antonio Spurs. In 2004, ****ESPN named Cleveland the most tortured sports city in America***

im a houstonian, you moron. learn to read. i could care less about the cavs.

again, win a championship.

MAC10TIZZY
06-02-2009, 07:40 PM
im a houstonian, you moron. learn to read. i could care less about the cavs.

again, win a championship.
oh, houston , my bad , thats even worse...lol...and my bad i thought you would rep where you stay, not saying you have to, i have just never heard of you in here before... you seem to still be pretty angry...how's t-mac?

sp1derm00
06-02-2009, 07:54 PM
No way in hell would I take Yao over Dwight... regular or postseason.

JordansBulls
06-02-2009, 11:28 PM
Uh...I was. I was pointing out that I thought macc's logic was..well...illogical.



You got it. Yay! :clap::clap:

Oh ok.

:laugh2: