PDA

View Full Version : The Elite Level Debate



f19ure
05-31-2009, 10:45 PM
Warning, this is a fairly long post.

I was sitting, reading some of the posts in this thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9592328#post9592328) (and in others before it). And I just thought how much I disagreed with people's notion of an elite-level player. I'm not talking about a franchise player, because regardless of if you're on that elite plateau or not, you can be the focal point of your franchise, and that without a doubt makes you, your team's franchise player. And they are: Joe Johnson, Kevin Garnett (formerly Paul Pierce), Derrick Rose, LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Yao Ming, Danny Granger, Blake Griffin (:p), Kobe Bryant, O.J. Mayo, Dwyane Wade, Michael Redd, Al Jefferson (formerly Kevin Garnett), Devin Harris, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard, Andre Iguodala, Steve Nash, Brandon Roy, Kevin Martin, Tim Duncan, Chris Bosh and Deron Williams. Some franchises don't have one and are in clear need of a franchise face (an identity), some like, the Bobcats, the Pistons, the Warriors, the Knicks, and the Wizards (most argue Arenas). But it's clear that the individuals making up that list aren't all elite-level players.

So what constitutes an elite-level player? I think it's one whom you take off the team and that team automatically goes from contender to fodder. From top crop to bottom feeder. I explain further below:


Durant is a great player, but to call him as good as Wade? There's no way.

Elite players can at least lead their team to the playoffs. So that means Durant will be elite in 2 years. Why do you think he was passed over in the All-Star Game? The team's record.

You guys obviously have a bright future ahead, but Durant isn't on Wade's level until he does something in the postseason. You know why Roy is elite right now? His leadership led the Blazers to the playoffs.

Roy isn't an elite level player in my opinion, he's extremely over hyped. He's just got an all-star cast surrounding him, bolstering his proficiency. Granted, he did lead the team, is without a resounding doubt the face of the Blazer franchise. But, take Roy off the Blazers, and they're still a good team. One of the deepest benches in basketball. And a promising prospect in Oden down in the low post. I mean, knowing this, can you imagine how much pressure is taken off of Roy with the knowledge that he has guys that can get it going offensively. Guys like, Aldridge, Fernandez, Outlaw, Blake, Frye, Batum and even Oden (down low). It frees him up at times, and makes it harder for teams to double or triple team him, because there's so much firepower surrounding him. You just can't put him in that elite-level category because I just don't think Roy could carry a team offensively, not yet. Wade for example dished the dime 7.5x/game (6.7 for his career) and still managed a whopping 30.2 points/game, not only that, but he also averaged a ridiculous field goal percentage of 49.2%. Not even Kobe was ever capable of assembling stats like those, of course Kobe relies primarily on his mid-range game, whereas Wade is still, predominantly, a slasher. But, we've seen Wade use that jump-shot a lot more this season than in season's past. And a lot more effectively too.

In my opinion there are only 1 to 2 elite-level players at their respective positions. And they are:

1-guard: Chris Paul - This one's a no brainer, scored more points than Roy (while averaging less touches) and assisted on more plays than any other player in the league. Statistically he accounted for nearly 47% of the team's offense. Take this ***** off your team and you know the Hornets ain't winning more than 10 to 20 games during the regular season.

2-guard: Kobe Bryant & Dwyane Wade - Another no brainer, each accounted for the majority of their team's points, and Dwyane Wade in particular accounted for 48% of his team's offense on both plays made and plays created. Take these offensive minded dukes off their respective teams and there's certainly cause for alarm. Kobe's might stay afloat for a while, but they're not making the post-season (and if they do, they'll serve as an appetizer for whatever first-round behemoth gets the honor of trouncing them out of it). And Wade's, well you remember 07-08, Wade in and out of the line-up (missing more than 30 games), chemistry issues galore, what did that amass to? 15 wins? I rest my case. :D

3-forward: LeBron James - This one was a bit harder. James was an obvious no brainer, but including Melo was a bit more difficult. I didn't want to be bias. Melo's my favorite player - but that doesn't mean I consider him anywhere near one of the best players in the league, he is a very good small forward, the second best behind James, he's actually a better post-up player and his mid-range game is more polished. But he still lacks the versatility James brings to the table. Take James off the Cavs and you know they're not making the playoffs, They've actually got some good players in Delonte West, Mo Williams and Ilgauskas, but James is the glue that sticks that team together. He created that great chemistry they had all year, take away his leadership and the Cavaliers fall into disarray.

4-forward: Tim Duncan - He too, like James, stands alone in my opinion. Hell, the one-spot is actually laden with a crop of potential elite-level players. Watch out Chris Paul!

5-center: None - I'm going to get ripped for this, for excluding Ming and Howard (especially "Superman"). But thus far, there has not been a dominant big capable of carrying his team on his shoulders. Not the way Jabbar, Olajuwon and Shaq did. Granted, Olajuwon didn't win a title till Clyde Drexler, but he had an impressive rookie season, and most importantly made the post-season in his first year, same with Kareem before him. Both were also really great on-court leaders, as was Shaq. Now O'Neil didn't make the post-season his rookie year, but they finished with a respectable 41-41. And when Penny came along, he and his Magic absolutely dominated the Eastern Conference. Take all three of those players off their respected ball clubs, and trust me, they would not have fared so well. Howard and Ming on the other hand, we saw what their team's are capable of doing without them, and there's no reason to doubt that they'd be mediocre at worst.

In any case, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree? If you do or don't, why or why not. Try to make this an intelligent discussion, and not a sixth-grade flame war. "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" is what my mother always taught me.

Vinny642
05-31-2009, 10:52 PM
LOL Ripped the Hornets life saying we would win 10-20 games without Cp3. But i might take that as a compliment.

f19ure
05-31-2009, 11:13 PM
I'll say it again, CP3 accounts for almost 47% of the offense. Not only that, but he's the heart and soul of that team and directs nearly all of the plays (even with the ball out of his hands). Granted Tyson Chandler is without a doubt the best screen-setter in the NBA (I mean they don't hear or see him coming - he's a ninja) and it helps to be able to roll over to the hoop so smoothly, and to catch lob passes or alley-oops in order to finish at the rim. That's pick-n-roll perfection, but who has the ball in their hands drawing the attention of the opposing team's defense? To give West open looks, and Chandler those great angles he takes. ;)

Trust me, without Paul, the Hornets are winning 20 at best.

bogmon
05-31-2009, 11:35 PM
Roy isn't an elite level player in my opinion, he's extremely over hyped. He's just got an all-star cast surrounding him, bolstering his proficiency. Granted, he did lead the team, is without a resounding doubt the face of the Blazer franchise. But, take Roy off the Blazers, and they're still a good team. You just can't put him in that elite-level category because I just don't think Roy could carry a team offensively, not yet. Wade for example dished the dime 7.5x/game (6.7 for his career) and still managed a whopping 30.2 points/game, not only that, but he also averaged a ridiculous field goal percentage of 49.2%.

In my opinion there are only 1 to 2 elite-level players at their respective positions. .

Being a Blazer fan, I have to respectfully disagree. He went from Rookie of the Year to 2 consecutive All-Star Selections....in three years.

If you watched the series between Houston and Portland you would understand why people consider Roy a stud and put him in the upper echelon of NBA talent. The guy DOES take the team on his back and is absolutely the reason they won so many tight games this season....he just has that "IT" factor that so few guys have at such a young age. It actually reminds me of Tim Duncan when he first came into the league....mature...poised...mentally tough....clutch.

I would say there are 10 guys right now that are superstars in this league...of course, Kobe; Wade, and Lebron are in there....but I would put
Howard; CP3; Kevin Garnett;Dirk; Melo; Deron Williams and Roy on that list too!

_KB24_
06-01-2009, 12:11 AM
Duncans times up. Garnett should be there. and HOWARD should definelty be up there or your on crack my friend

BoSox47
06-01-2009, 12:17 AM
I think paul pierce should get recognition on this i mean garnett went down and peirce elevated his game. Plus last years playoffs pp showed how he can preform on the biggest of stages. He might get hated on because before garnett and allen came they had a couple bad seasons inbetween the antoine walker and big three days but you say garnett is elite which i also agree but him and ray allen were both on awful teams before and are said to be on top the league

i.got.the.nutz
06-01-2009, 12:42 AM
Deron Williams needs to be on that list.

madiaz3
06-01-2009, 12:44 AM
Roy is elite imo. He controls the tempo of the game on both ends of the floor, and can play his best against the other elite, that's what makes him elite himself.

dodie53
06-01-2009, 12:48 AM
include Howard to the list

abe_froman
06-01-2009, 12:58 AM
yeah i'd put howard up there to

AccUrSeD
06-01-2009, 01:03 AM
Brandon Roy carries the blazers every 4th quarter!

He is top 5 in the league in 4th quarter scoring!


and Dwight Howard is definitely deserving of the "elite" list

SwaggaIke
06-01-2009, 02:04 AM
Everybody can't be elite, there are only a few. I'd take a "franchise player" over a "superstar". There are plenty of superstars and few franchise players.

BigEric
06-01-2009, 02:37 AM
I read up to Brandon Roy is overhyped, and I started clapping. Literally. I think you're the only other guy on PSD that thinks Roy is overhyped. I mean he is a good player but extremely overhyped.

valade16
06-01-2009, 05:02 AM
f19ure

Perhaps at this point your ready to concede your absolutely wrong! Considering one of the guys that clearly deserved to be in elite category (Howard) just took his team to the finals...

In regards to the Roy comments, he's got an all-star cast around him?!

QUICK: name 1 other all-star on the Blazers!!!

...

Can't think of any? That's because there are none!

Aldridge is a legitimate second option, however your telling me he's got the most talented team with: Fernandez (a roookie who averaged less than 10 ppg), Blake - a slow PG who should be a backup, Frye - averaged hardly any minutes/points and plays no interior D, and Oden, a rookie coming off a major surgery who was noted for his foul numbers and not his points or rebounds (both under 10)...

Your talking about that Dream team? Yes, this team will be absurdly good in time, but did you (or anyone else) really think that they'd be this good THIS SOON?! NO! And that's because of ROY!!

1st year Rookie of the year
2nd year All-Star
3rd year All-NBA 2nd team.

imagine year 4...

codes238
06-01-2009, 08:39 AM
there are currently 6 real "franchise" players and they are lebron, kobe, wade, dwight howard, chris paul and brandon roy... thats it

dandman1021
06-01-2009, 08:47 AM
there are currently 6 real "franchise" players and they are lebron, kobe, wade, dwight howard, chris paul and brandon roy... thats it

exactly

Draco
06-01-2009, 08:49 AM
I haven't seen much of Roy but I had the same impression about the media coverage on a guy who's surrounded by a lot of talent. Even Steve Blake looks decent playing on the Blazers. However I like the fact that Roy played four years of college ball. I think that gave him an advantage over most players who come into the league. Roy might be making the most of the situation he's in but I'll give him credit for being able to do it.

AIverson
06-01-2009, 09:12 AM
1.)Lebron
2.)CP3
3.)Howard

Those are the only true franchise players IMO. There are some elite players like Wade, Kobe, Dirk, ect. who are just a notch below these guys.

It's like the previous era of Basketball in the early 2k. Our franchise players were:

1.)Shaq
2.)Garnett
3.)Duncan

With players like Kidd and Iverson being a bit below them.

There aren't a lot of franchise players... The NBA doesn't have that type of parity.

Vinny642
06-01-2009, 09:18 AM
i cant believe some people think DWill isnt a franchise player. to me he is right there with CP as far as PGs are concerned

lakerboy
06-01-2009, 09:21 AM
There are only two tiers in the NBA

1. Kobe (okay this year maybe we can add LBJ to this tier)
2. Others.

AIverson
06-01-2009, 09:25 AM
i cant believe some people think DWill isnt a franchise player. to me he is right there with CP as far as PGs are concerned

Deron doesn't really dominate the game in any way, though. That's the problem with him.

cmacmath
06-01-2009, 09:55 AM
Wow...I am actaully offended...In no way is Brandon Roy overhyped...has any Blazer in the history of the NBA ever been overhyped?? He is not flashy, doesn't make sportscenter, isn't a cancer to his team, isn't a me-first player, isn't a ball hog, is smooth, old school, and unstoppable with a sweet inside and outside game that elevates the level of everybody else around him before taking over the game in the 4th quarter possibly better than anybody in the NBA MAYBE with the exception of the big 3 wade, kobe and lebron

Brandon Roy is easily one of the 7 best players in the league right now and does nothing to draw attention to himself so I don't know how he could possibly be overhyped...And don't start riddling off names like Blake, Batum, Oden, and Outlaw as reasons why the Blazers are good...none of those players would start on any other teams in the NBA and the Blazers (an extremely young team) still were good enough to get home court advantage in the tough Western Conference where a team like the Suns (Nash, Amare, Grant Hill, Shaq) couldn't even make the playoffs...

Brandon Roy = underrated (even more so after this thread apparently)

cmacmath
06-01-2009, 09:57 AM
there are currently 6 real "franchise" players and they are lebron, kobe, wade, dwight howard, chris paul and brandon roy... thats it

That is exactly right!

Vinny642
06-01-2009, 10:01 AM
There are only two tiers in the NBA

1. Kobe (okay this year maybe we can add LBJ to this tier)
2. Others.

:pity: maybe? r u serious? this is probably the worst post of this thread

AIverson
06-01-2009, 10:54 AM
Wow...I am actaully offended...In no way is Brandon Roy overhyped...has any Blazer in the history of the NBA ever been overhyped?? He is not flashy, doesn't make sportscenter, isn't a cancer to his team, isn't a me-first player, isn't a ball hog, is smooth, old school, and unstoppable with a sweet inside and outside game that elevates the level of everybody else around him before taking over the game in the 4th quarter possibly better than anybody in the NBA MAYBE with the exception of the big 3 wade, kobe and lebron

Brandon Roy is easily one of the 7 best players in the league right now and does nothing to draw attention to himself so I don't know how he could possibly be overhyped...And don't start riddling off names like Blake, Batum, Oden, and Outlaw as reasons why the Blazers are good...none of those players would start on any other teams in the NBA and the Blazers (an extremely young team) still were good enough to get home court advantage in the tough Western Conference where a team like the Suns (Nash, Amare, Grant Hill, Shaq) couldn't even make the playoffs...

Brandon Roy = underrated (even more so after this thread apparently)

I don't understand the Roy love. I, too, think he is overrated. I can't even put Roy into the top 10. It's nothing at all against Roy. I just don't see it yet. He's top 10 at his position, but I can't say he is overall. Maybe others are just seeing things faster than I am.

THE MTL
06-01-2009, 02:37 PM
Elite equals best of the best and Brandon ROy CANNOT compete with the likes of Kobe & Lebron. I put Roy on a level of Pierce/Melo/etc.

THE MTL
06-01-2009, 02:38 PM
Elite Players:

PG- Chris Paul
SG- Kobe Bryant
SF- Lebron James
PF- (none)
C- Dwight Howard

PhillyMac
06-01-2009, 03:03 PM
I think paul pierce should get recognition on this i mean garnett went down and peirce elevated his game. Plus last years playoffs pp showed how he can preform on the biggest of stages. He might get hated on because before garnett and allen came they had a couple bad seasons inbetween the antoine walker and big three days but you say garnett is elite which i also agree but him and ray allen were both on awful teams before and are said to be on top the league

no. good player? yes.
elite? no.
no

PhillyMac
06-01-2009, 03:04 PM
:pity: maybe? r u serious? this is probably the worst post of this thread

please, lets not have the kobe vs lebron tread in here

BULLSFAN0810
06-01-2009, 03:14 PM
Warning, this is a fairly long post.

I was sitting, reading some of the posts in this thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9592328#post9592328) (and in others before it). And I just thought how much I disagreed with people's notion of an elite-level player. I'm not talking about a franchise player, because regardless of if you're on that elite plateau or not, you can be the focal point of your franchise, and that without a doubt makes you, your team's franchise player. And they are: Joe Johnson, Kevin Garnett (formerly Paul Pierce), Derrick Rose, LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Yao Ming, Danny Granger, Blake Griffin (:p), Kobe Bryant, O.J. Mayo, Dwyane Wade, Michael Redd, Al Jefferson (formerly Kevin Garnett), Devin Harris, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard, Andre Iguodala, Steve Nash, Brandon Roy, Kevin Martin, Tim Duncan, Chris Bosh and Deron Williams. Some franchises don't have one and are in clear need of a franchise face (an identity), some like, the Bobcats, the Pistons, the Warriors, the Knicks, and the Wizards (most argue Arenas). But it's clear that the individuals making up that list aren't all elite-level players.

So what constitutes an elite-level player? I think it's one whom you take off the team and that team automatically goes from contender to fodder. From top crop to bottom feeder. I explain further below:



Roy isn't an elite level player in my opinion, he's extremely over hyped. He's just got an all-star cast surrounding him, bolstering his proficiency. Granted, he did lead the team, is without a resounding doubt the face of the Blazer franchise. But, take Roy off the Blazers, and they're still a good team. One of the deepest benches in basketball. And a promising prospect in Oden down in the low post. I mean, knowing this, can you imagine how much pressure is taken off of Roy with the knowledge that he has guys that can get it going offensively. Guys like, Aldridge, Fernandez, Outlaw, Blake, Frye, Batum and even Oden (down low). It frees him up at times, and makes it harder for teams to double or triple team him, because there's so much firepower surrounding him. You just can't put him in that elite-level category because I just don't think Roy could carry a team offensively, not yet. Wade for example dished the dime 7.5x/game (6.7 for his career) and still managed a whopping 30.2 points/game, not only that, but he also averaged a ridiculous field goal percentage of 49.2%. Not even Kobe was ever capable of assembling stats like those, of course Kobe relies primarily on his mid-range game, whereas Wade is still, predominantly, a slasher. But, we've seen Wade use that jump-shot a lot more this season than in season's past. And a lot more effectively too.

In my opinion there are only 1 to 2 elite-level players at their respective positions. And they are:

1-guard: Chris Paul - This one's a no brainer, scored more points than Roy (while averaging less touches) and assisted on more plays than any other player in the league. Statistically he accounted for nearly 47% of the team's offense. Take this ***** off your team and you know the Hornets ain't winning more than 10 to 20 games during the regular season.

2-guard: Kobe Bryant & Dwyane Wade - Another no brainer, each accounted for the majority of their team's points, and Dwyane Wade in particular accounted for 48% of his team's offense on both plays made and plays created. Take these offensive minded dukes off their respective teams and there's certainly cause for alarm. Kobe's might stay afloat for a while, but they're not making the post-season (and if they do, they'll serve as an appetizer for whatever first-round behemoth gets the honor of trouncing them out of it). And Wade's, well you remember 07-08, Wade in and out of the line-up (missing more than 30 games), chemistry issues galore, what did that amass to? 15 wins? I rest my case. :D

3-forward: LeBron James - This one was a bit harder. James was an obvious no brainer, but including Melo was a bit more difficult. I didn't want to be bias. Melo's my favorite player - but that doesn't mean I consider him anywhere near one of the best players in the league, he is a very good small forward, the second best behind James, he's actually a better post-up player and his mid-range game is more polished. But he still lacks the versatility James brings to the table. Take James off the Cavs and you know they're not making the playoffs, They've actually got some good players in Delonte West, Mo Williams and Ilgauskas, but James is the glue that sticks that team together. He created that great chemistry they had all year, take away his leadership and the Cavaliers fall into disarray.

4-forward: Tim Duncan - He too, like James, stands alone in my opinion. Hell, the one-spot is actually laden with a crop of potential elite-level players. Watch out Chris Paul!

5-center: None - I'm going to get ripped for this, for excluding Ming and Howard (especially "Superman"). But thus far, there has not been a dominant big capable of carrying his team on his shoulders. Not the way Jabbar, Olajuwon and Shaq did. Granted, Olajuwon didn't win a title till Clyde Drexler, but he had an impressive rookie season, and most importantly made the post-season in his first year, same with Kareem before him. Both were also really great on-court leaders, as was Shaq. Now O'Neil didn't make the post-season his rookie year, but they finished with a respectable 41-41. And when Penny came along, he and his Magic absolutely dominated the Eastern Conference. Take all three of those players off their respected ball clubs, and trust me, they would not have fared so well. Howard and Ming on the other hand, we saw what their team's are capable of doing without them, and there's no reason to doubt that they'd be mediocre at worst.

In any case, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree? If you do or don't, why or why not. Try to make this an intelligent discussion, and not a sixth-grade flame war. "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" is what my mother always taught me.

dude you are SUPER WRONG .... AN ELITE PLAYER CAN & IS SUPPOSED to get you to the playoff But that isnt always the case ......

PG DERON WILLIAMS , CP3 , Derrick ROSE ... you can build a legit team with any of these PGs

SG KOBE , DWADE , Brandon ROY & T-MAC (ROY CAN pass post shoot the 3 defend ... so he is Legit. and if you dont think Tmac is Legit when Healthy your Weak . )

SF LBJ , MELO (unTILL Billups got there he was trash)

PF Garrnet , Duncan , Amare , Brand , DIRK (yes AMARE & BRAND DIRK esp BRAND& Dirk)

C YAO AND Dwight Howard

abe_froman
06-01-2009, 03:18 PM
Elite Players:

PG- Chris Paul
SG- Kobe Bryant
SF- Lebron James
PF- (none)
C- Dwight Howard

tim duncan and wade arent elite?? :confused:

The Prodigy
06-01-2009, 03:21 PM
This is how I feel at this point. (no bias feelings
Elite Players
Kobe,Wade,James-Clearly the best players in the league no matter what order you put them in and can elevate thier game higher on any given night

Superstars
Cp3,D-Will- The only point guards that play higher than any other and thier teams look lost without them.

Roy-Led young team to the playoffs but I need to see more of him there and he doesn't seem to have that killier instincts.

Carmello-Have all the scoring talent of any single player in the league just needs to step up on defense.

Tim Duncan- You know what your going to get from him night in and night out.

Dwight- Almost on the Elite level but hasn't really shown that he can dominate offensively whenever he wants and can't always depend on him in the fourth.
Yao-Great player, But not a vocal leader or have that killer instinct

Borderline Superstars

Tony Parker- he is as great as any point guard offensively and defensively but can he get his teammates involved more.

Joe Johnson-I think he is highly overrated but still a great player. Great scorer,defender and passer only thing wrong is that he is either off or on.

Danny Granger- Great young player that can shoot the lights out. He wants to be great and commits himself to defense.
Kevin Durant- Also a young player with tremendous up-side, just needs to get better defensively and maybe bulk up.

Dirk, Amare, And Bosh- They all can score, but can they play defense, rebound or do anything else.

No Centers
Shaq is too old and every body else is too young or just not good enough

iam brett favre
06-01-2009, 03:27 PM
Elite:
LeBron.
Kobe.
Deron williams.
DWade.
CP3.

I don't even watch basketball that much, and I can answer this question easily.

iam brett favre
06-01-2009, 03:28 PM
This is how I feel at this point. (no bias feelings
Elite Players
Kobe,Wade,James-Clearly the best players in the league no matter what order you put them in and can elevate thier game higher on any given night

Superstars
Cp3,D-Will- The only point guards that play higher than any other and thier teams look lost without them.

Roy-Led young team to the playoffs but I need to see more of him there and he doesn't seem to have that killier instincts.

Carmello-Have all the scoring talent of any single player in the league just needs to step up on defense.

Tim Duncan- You know what your going to get from him night in and night out.

Dwight- Almost on the Elite level but hasn't really shown that he can dominate offensively whenever he wants and can't always depend on him in the fourth.
Yao-Great player, But not a vocal leader or have that killer instinct

Borderline Superstars

Tony Parker- he is as great as any point guard offensively and defensively but can he get his teammates involved more.

Joe Johnson-I think he is highly overrated but still a great player. Great scorer,defender and passer only thing wrong is that he is either off or on.

Danny Granger- Great young player that can shoot the lights out. He wants to be great and commits himself to defense.
Kevin Durant- Also a young player with tremendous up-side, just needs to get better defensively and maybe bulk up.

Dirk, Amare, And Bosh- They all can score, but can they play defense, rebound or do anything else.

No Centers
Shaq is too old and every body else is too young or just not good enough


The fact that Shaq even ran through your mind while reading this thread makes me :puke:

The Prodigy
06-01-2009, 03:29 PM
The only players I would build a team around and expect deep playoff ventures, final appearances, championships are aka franchise players.
Wade
Kobe
Lebron
Cp3
Howard
Mello
Roy
D-will

The Prodigy
06-01-2009, 03:31 PM
The fact that Shaq even ran through your mind while reading this thread makes me :puke:

Alright, can you name me a couple of Centers that are better right now then Shaq besides Yao and Dwight.

bonafide1091
06-01-2009, 03:33 PM
i think we all know dwight howard just carried the magic to the finals..so edit your post. other then excluding "superman", the post was very very good

i.got.the.nutz
06-01-2009, 04:21 PM
Duncan is the best PF in the game so how is he not an elite player.

The Prodigy
06-01-2009, 04:25 PM
The fact that Shaq even ran through your mind while reading this thread makes me :puke:

Coming from a person who doesnt watch basketball much:rolleyes::clap:

iam brett favre
06-01-2009, 04:54 PM
Coming from a person who doesnt watch basketball much:rolleyes::clap:


Alright, can you name me a couple of Centers that are better right now then Shaq besides Yao and Dwight.

Not sure why you quoted the same post in 2 seperate posts, but if we talking elite players, the last person that comes to mind is Shaq...Not now, anyway

BWBuffet
06-01-2009, 04:58 PM
Joe Johnson = Brandon Roy

blazerman
06-01-2009, 04:59 PM
Duncan is the best PF in the game so how is he not an elite player.

He is an elite player and so is Tony Parker, they are multiple title holders and are both elite players at their position.

Some of these guys that say only Kobe,Lebron and CP3 are the only elite players are foolish.

The NBA is the elite league in the world and the top 10 to 15 players in the NBA should be considered the creme of the crop not just 2 or 3 guys.

Weve all seen Kobe with an average team not even make the playoffs and the same with Lebron and Wade(won about 15 games last yr). So for these guys to bicker and say Melo,Dirk,Duncan,Parker,Howard,Pierce,Roy,D will and so on are not elite level players is foolish. Most of these guys do so much more on the court such as dive for loose balls,passing,steals,set the tempo rebound,block shots and just run the show for their team.

So to not include these guys and some others I didnt mention is not right because all great players need other good players to compliment them especially if stats are what you look at and there isnt one person in the NBA who can say I can lead my team to a title all by myself(LeBron just proved that).

BWBuffet
06-01-2009, 04:59 PM
Kobe, LeBron, Dwight, Melo, Wade- Elite of the Elite

CP3, D-Will, D. Rose, D. Granger, K. Durant, J. Johnson, J. Smith, B. Roy, T. Duncan, T. Parker, M. Ginobili, K. Garnett, P. Pierce, Yao, (healthy) T-Mac, D. Nowitski - Elite

IndyRealist
06-01-2009, 05:35 PM
People are arguing the semantics of Elite vs. Franchise player. He's not taking franchise player to mean a really good player, franchise player means "the face of a franchise". He's using the word "elite" vs "franchise", same difference. Derrick Rose is a franchise player, but he's not an elite player (yet). Same with Danny Granger.

1st tier (players you could build around to win championships)
PG - Paul, Williams, Parker
SG - Kobe, Wade
SF - Lebron
PF - Duncan, Dirk
C - Howard, Yao

2nd tier (players you could build around to get to the conference finals)
Roy, Bosh, Melo, KG, Al Jefferson, Amare, Pau, Billups, Nash.

3rd tier (players you could build around to get into the playoffs)
Joe Johnson, Pierce, Ray Allen, Granger, Michael Redd, Ron Artest, Kevin Martin, Josh Smith, Carlos Boozer, Antwan Jamison, Rondo, Jameer Nelson, Devin Harris, Gerald Wallace, Elton Brand, Andre Igoudala, Rip Hamilton, Durant.

Note: I put Granger 3rd tier. No bs homerism here.

I'm sure I left some people out, and I'll get ribbed for it, but oh well.

ragee
06-01-2009, 06:16 PM
I think this thread is about Primadonas and not about being an Elite player... Excluding Duncan by the way... Roy, Dwight, Deron, Dirk, and KG not an elite?

First of, Roy and Dirk... Just because they are not as flashy as the other players, that does not mean they are not in the same level... Dirk is unstoppable at the offensive end unless you double him... He is no. 3 in scoring... He can score anywhere on the floor with great efficiency and shoots 90% in the free throw line... Sure, his defense is not that good but he makes it up in scoring, passing and rebounding... Roy is not my favorite Blazer but He sure is the best... There is no doubt in my mind that without him, the Blazers are not going to be where they are right now... Sure they have a ot of players who can score 20 in a game but do note that those players where nowhere to be found in the playoffs... Why is that? Because they are still too young and inconsistent... Roy and maybe La are the only one who can consistently score 20 on that team... When everything else is failing, Roy can step up and score more... Just like what Lebron, Kobe and Wade are doing for their team... It is just not as flashy...

Next Deron... Paul is in there but Deron is not? Sure, Paul is better than him but he is very close... Both are great playmakers and can score if they needed too... One is great at stealing the ball, the other is great at closing is opponent down.. One use finesse in scoring, the other use his strength...

Lastly, KG and Dwight... Are you kidding me?!!!! You are leaving these two out?!!! Why? Because they don't score as much as the others?! Have you ever heard of the thing called defense? Yes, Defense... The other thing that is as much important as offense... Yes, these two could not score as much as the others... One is has yet to develop some legit offensive skills and the other is past his prime and is focusing more on defense... Their defense however makes up for it big time... You don't think a guy who can score 20 points, grab 20 rebounds and swat a couple of shots is not an elite player? Then why can't other players do it as well? Look at the Celts this year and last year... Last year, they torched their opponents by their suffocating defense... This year, where was that defense? Sure, they were still good but not as good as last year... They relied more on their offense this year than defense...

f19ure
06-01-2009, 08:35 PM
@ragee

I'll begin by saying this, IndyRealist broke it down pretty well. Other than some of the selections he made of who belonged in what tier (some of his choices I didn't agree with, but that's my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own), he got the point of my rambling.

Their are a select group of players that make up that elite tier, but a good many more that don't. Mind you however, these players, are still really good. They are, in essence, your Carmelo Anthonys, Chauncey Billups, Yao Mings, the list goes on. But one thing is for sure, it takes a very special player to make that elite tier. Take what Blazerman said (it's erroneous for several reasons):


Weve all seen Kobe with an average team not even make the playoffs and the same with Lebron and Wade(won about 15 games last yr). So for these guys to bicker and say Melo,Dirk,Duncan,Parker,Howard,Pierce,Roy,D will and so on are not elite level players is foolish. Most of these guys do so much more on the court such as dive for loose balls,passing,steals,set the tempo rebound,block shots and just run the show for their team.

1. Kobe Bryant, in all his years as a Laker, only failed to qualify for the playoffs once in his career, and that was when Smush Parker was his second option. That wasn't an average team, or even a marginally bad team. That was a BAD team. And yet, eventually, Bryant lead them to two straight postseasons (almost upsetting the first seeded Suns).

2. James has never missed a post season, except his first two seasons in the league (trust me, in those days, outside of James and Ilgauskas, you had nobody on that team). Since, James has never fared worse than a Semifinal exit. And yet, to this day, James doesn't have the caliber of players surrounding him that Brandon Roy does, Carmelo Anthony does, or Kobe Bryant does (to name a few).

3. Going back to Wade, you can't really count last season against him, because a) he was recovering from that injury (lost a lot of his explosiveness and fire) b) was in and out of the line-up c) that caused a lot of chemistry issues d) if that wasn't bad enough, the Heat eventually lost Shaq to a trade e) lost Haslem to a season-ending injury and f) by the end of it, were left with nothing but D-League talent and rookies. The 07-08 Heat team was definitely a bad team, as bad as they come. If it makes you feel any better, I didn't consider Wade an elite-level player till this season.

Now going back to why I don't consider Roy, Nowitzki, or Howard elite-level players. It's simple, give them Bryant's 04-07 team, or James' 03-05 team (or hell even James' team today), Wade's cast of D-League level talent and youth, or Chris Paul's erratic side kicks and I'll tell you where they'll end up. Secaucus, NJ, known as the 11th best place to live in New Jersey and the home of the NBA Draft Lottery.

ragee
06-01-2009, 10:01 PM
@ragee

I'll begin by saying this, IndyRealist broke it down pretty well. Other than some of the selections he made of who belonged in what tier (some of his choices I didn't agree with, but that's my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own), he got the point of my rambling.

Their are a select group of players that make up that elite tier, but a good many more that don't. Mind you however, these players, are still really good. They are, in essence, your Carmelo Anthonys, Chauncey Billups, Yao Mings, the list goes on. But one thing is for sure, it takes a very special player to make that elite tier. Take what Blazerman said (it's erroneous for several reasons):



1. Kobe Bryant, in all his years as a Laker, only failed to qualify for the playoffs once in his career, and that was when Smush Parker was his second option. That wasn't an average team, or even a marginally bad team. That was a BAD team. And yet, eventually, Bryant lead them to two straight postseasons (almost upsetting the first seeded Suns).

2. James has never missed a post season, except his first two seasons in the league (trust me, in those days, outside of James and Ilgauskas, you had nobody on that team). Since, James has never fared worse than a Semifinal exit. And yet, to this day, James doesn't have the caliber of players surrounding him that Brandon Roy does, Carmelo Anthony does, or Kobe Bryant does (to name a few).

3. Going back to Wade, you can't really count last season against him, because a) he was recovering from that injury (lost a lot of his explosiveness and fire) b) was in and out of the line-up c) that caused a lot of chemistry issues d) if that wasn't bad enough, the Heat eventually lost Shaq to a trade e) lost Haslem to a season-ending injury and f) by the end of it, were left with nothing but D-League talent and rookies. The 07-08 Heat team was definitely a bad team, as bad as they come. If it makes you feel any better, I didn't consider Wade an elite-level player till this season.

Now going back to why I don't consider Roy, Nowitzki, or Howard elite-level players. It's simple, give them Bryant's 04-07 team, or James' 03-05 team (or hell even James' team today), Wade's cast of D-League level talent and youth, or Chris Paul's erratic side kicks and I'll tell you where they'll end up. Secaucus, NJ, known as the 11th best place to live in New Jersey and the home of the NBA Draft Lottery.

You forgot about Deron and KG... And KG had a pretty sucky team in Minnesota... Dirk, I can't argue with that, he always had some decent players... Roy was drafted with LA so that counts him out of this argument too... Dwight however made the playoffs during the 2006-2007 season... And don't tell me that he had Nelson and Hedo coz they were not that good yet during that time... And if you are going to push through with that, I am going to counter you with Wade having Butler and Odom!!! What do you have to say about that? And please don't tell me Lebron only had Z because Z was a good player back then...

With that being said, I don't think being a one man team and taking your team to the playoffs is the best way to determine who are elite and who are not because there are several factors that contributes to that... Like, NBA readiness, the team they were on, the strength of their conference during that year, playing time,etc... For example, Lebron James and Dwayne Wade, KG, Chris Paul were already that good when they entered the NBA... Dirk, Kobe, Dwight weren't... I took them several years to become where they are right now... But that does not mean they are not as good as Lebron and Wade... What if Lebron was drafted by the Spurs? Does that mean he is not an elite player anymore because he has Parker and Duncan right from the start? You can't really say Dirk, Dwight or whoever could not bring the Lakers with Smush being the 2nd option (I doubt this though... Ater Shaq, he had Odom and Butler... When was this?) to the playoffs...

ragee
06-01-2009, 10:09 PM
OMG... You are just being biased... I just looked at the 2003-2004 Cavs roster... Lebron James, Z and Boozer!!!! And yet they didn't reach the playoffs... Wow... And please don't tell me boozer wasn't that good yet coz he was averaging 17 ppg 11rpg... His teammates is way better than the 2000-01 roster of the Mavs when they first reached the playoffs... I am not saying Lebron is not an elite player... All I am saying is your criteria for picking is flawed...

ragee
06-01-2009, 10:19 PM
2004-05 LA Lakers... They didn't have Smush Parker!!! What are you talking about...
Who they have are Caron Butler and Lamar Odom... Straigten up your facts man! That is better than the 06-07 Magic!!!

grega1976
06-01-2009, 10:27 PM
Not the way Jabbar, Olajuwon and Shaq did. Granted, Olajuwon didn't win a title till Clyde Drexler, but he had an impressive rookie season, and most importantly made the post-season in his first year, same with Kareem before him. Both were also really great on-court leaders, as was Shaq. .

great post, however Olajuwon did win a championship without Drexler... Oh and I completely agree with you about Howard and Yao, and I'm a HUGE rockets fan... neither is elite though, Howard might be one day but not yet

SeoulBeatz
06-01-2009, 10:47 PM
couldnt agree with u more, there isnt an elite center in this league anymore.

shaq was the last.... dwight needs to work on some post moves, ANY POST MOVES, to be in consideration for elite

Ovratd1up
06-01-2009, 11:02 PM
Great post man. I think that Roy can eventually join it but by the time he does, Durant and Rose might already be ahead of him. Deron Williams and Carmelo Anthony are in the duggout. Wow, I just used a baseball expression. Duncan has one foot out the door, and Amare and Bosh certainly aren't ready to replace him.

I think in a few years this is what it will be...

1. James
2. Paul
3. Wade
4. Howard
5. Durant
6. Rose
7. Roy

Deron can possibly join them, and the rest will be superstars...

magichatnumber9
06-01-2009, 11:04 PM
Warning, this is a fairly long post.

I was sitting, reading some of the posts in this thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9592328#post9592328) (and in others before it). And I just thought how much I disagreed with people's notion of an elite-level player. I'm not talking about a franchise player, because regardless of if you're on that elite plateau or not, you can be the focal point of your franchise, and that without a doubt makes you, your team's franchise player. And they are: Joe Johnson, Kevin Garnett (formerly Paul Pierce), Derrick Rose, LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Yao Ming, Danny Granger, Blake Griffin (:p), Kobe Bryant, O.J. Mayo, Dwyane Wade, Michael Redd, Al Jefferson (formerly Kevin Garnett), Devin Harris, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard, Andre Iguodala, Steve Nash, Brandon Roy, Kevin Martin, Tim Duncan, Chris Bosh and Deron Williams. Some franchises don't have one and are in clear need of a franchise face (an identity), some like, the Bobcats, the Pistons, the Warriors, the Knicks, and the Wizards (most argue Arenas). But it's clear that the individuals making up that list aren't all elite-level players.

So what constitutes an elite-level player? I think it's one whom you take off the team and that team automatically goes from contender to fodder. From top crop to bottom feeder. I explain further below:



Roy isn't an elite level player in my opinion, he's extremely over hyped. He's just got an all-star cast surrounding him, bolstering his proficiency. Granted, he did lead the team, is without a resounding doubt the face of the Blazer franchise. But, take Roy off the Blazers, and they're still a good team. One of the deepest benches in basketball. And a promising prospect in Oden down in the low post. I mean, knowing this, can you imagine how much pressure is taken off of Roy with the knowledge that he has guys that can get it going offensively. Guys like, Aldridge, Fernandez, Outlaw, Blake, Frye, Batum and even Oden (down low). It frees him up at times, and makes it harder for teams to double or triple team him, because there's so much firepower surrounding him. You just can't put him in that elite-level category because I just don't think Roy could carry a team offensively, not yet. Wade for example dished the dime 7.5x/game (6.7 for his career) and still managed a whopping 30.2 points/game, not only that, but he also averaged a ridiculous field goal percentage of 49.2%. Not even Kobe was ever capable of assembling stats like those, of course Kobe relies primarily on his mid-range game, whereas Wade is still, predominantly, a slasher. But, we've seen Wade use that jump-shot a lot more this season than in season's past. And a lot more effectively too.

In my opinion there are only 1 to 2 elite-level players at their respective positions. And they are:

1-guard: Chris Paul - This one's a no brainer, scored more points than Roy (while averaging less touches) and assisted on more plays than any other player in the league. Statistically he accounted for nearly 47% of the team's offense. Take this ***** off your team and you know the Hornets ain't winning more than 10 to 20 games during the regular season.

2-guard: Kobe Bryant & Dwyane Wade - Another no brainer, each accounted for the majority of their team's points, and Dwyane Wade in particular accounted for 48% of his team's offense on both plays made and plays created. Take these offensive minded dukes off their respective teams and there's certainly cause for alarm. Kobe's might stay afloat for a while, but they're not making the post-season (and if they do, they'll serve as an appetizer for whatever first-round behemoth gets the honor of trouncing them out of it). And Wade's, well you remember 07-08, Wade in and out of the line-up (missing more than 30 games), chemistry issues galore, what did that amass to? 15 wins? I rest my case. :D

3-forward: LeBron James - This one was a bit harder. James was an obvious no brainer, but including Melo was a bit more difficult. I didn't want to be bias. Melo's my favorite player - but that doesn't mean I consider him anywhere near one of the best players in the league, he is a very good small forward, the second best behind James, he's actually a better post-up player and his mid-range game is more polished. But he still lacks the versatility James brings to the table. Take James off the Cavs and you know they're not making the playoffs, They've actually got some good players in Delonte West, Mo Williams and Ilgauskas, but James is the glue that sticks that team together. He created that great chemistry they had all year, take away his leadership and the Cavaliers fall into disarray.

4-forward: Tim Duncan - He too, like James, stands alone in my opinion. Hell, the one-spot is actually laden with a crop of potential elite-level players. Watch out Chris Paul!

5-center: None - I'm going to get ripped for this, for excluding Ming and Howard (especially "Superman"). But thus far, there has not been a dominant big capable of carrying his team on his shoulders. Not the way Jabbar, Olajuwon and Shaq did. Granted, Olajuwon didn't win a title till Clyde Drexler, but he had an impressive rookie season, and most importantly made the post-season in his first year, same with Kareem before him. Both were also really great on-court leaders, as was Shaq. Now O'Neil didn't make the post-season his rookie year, but they finished with a respectable 41-41. And when Penny came along, he and his Magic absolutely dominated the Eastern Conference. Take all three of those players off their respected ball clubs, and trust me, they would not have fared so well. Howard and Ming on the other hand, we saw what their team's are capable of doing without them, and there's no reason to doubt that they'd be mediocre at worst.

In any case, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree? If you do or don't, why or why not. Try to make this an intelligent discussion, and not a sixth-grade flame war. "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" is what my mother always taught me.

Yeah its your definition, so that doesn't mean the rest of us agree. And thats why this argument is pointless

f19ure
06-01-2009, 11:25 PM
@ragee

No Bias, do you realize the 03-04 Cavs were a team being led by a rookie draftee. No one enters the league an elite-level player, you gradually become one. LeBron was a freak of nature, granted, but at that time he was no where close to the elite-level player he is today. And no, the 03-04 Cavs were not better than the 00-01 Mavs, who had veteran players in Nash, Nowitzki, and Finley. At the time, Finley himself, was putting up better offensive numbers than either LeBron or Boozer.

I wasn't talking just about 04-05, but '04 through '07. You're right about Smush not playing on the 04-05 team though. And I do remember the trio of Bryant, Butler, and Odom. Jackson was actually attempting to utilize the old triangle offense method he'd used in his earlier days. But, it ultimately failed. And it failed for a number of reasons, primarily, poor sportsmanship and bad chemistry among Laker players. Granted, Bryant and Butler excelled, playing great together, but Odom and the rest of the team failed to excel under the system. Odom did post some pretty decent numbers, but numbers can actually be misleading, because they don't show intangibles. It was nothing on the 04-05 Lakers, they were a good offensive team, but where they excelled at scoring, they were equally bad at defending. It's not that I'm defending Kobe, he wasn't particularly good at getting his team to execute the plays he wanted them to execute (which shows a lack of leadership). But, despite having Butler and Odom, the caliber of his team was nowhere near as good as Dwight's (Bryant's 05-06 and 06-07 teams were actually even worse than the 04-05 team).

Let's look at the cast of players shall we? Dwight had (to start the season) a great offensive 1-guard in Jameer Nelson, a nice little pick-up from Western Kentucky in Courtney Lee (already a heckler on perimeter defense with a nice little running floater to boot), a point forward in Hedo Turkoglu, a Power Forward who stretches the defense, and a dangerous bench that can shoot lights out from 3-pt range and even offers up Post-play (Gortat) when Howard either gets tired or picks up early fouls. Don't compare Howard's Magic to the 04-05 Lakers, it's a travesty.

So you see (maybe you don't), my criteria for picking who's an elite-level player isn't flawed.

Lakersfan2483
06-02-2009, 12:08 AM
Superstars/Elite Players (Championship Players that you can build around): Kobe, Lebron, Wade, CP3, Howard, KG, Duncan, Y. Ming

Next Level stars (A step below becoming franchise players, Very good 2nd options for a championship team): Pierce, Melo, B. Roy, Amare, Bosh, C. Billups, T. Parker, M. Ginobli, P. Gasol, D. Williams, Nash, T-Mac (when healthy), Amare, Dirk

All Stars (Very good players that would fit perfectly as the 2nd and or 3rd option on a team): J. Johnson, Granger, D. Rose, B. Davis, A. Jefferson, H. Turkologu, R. Lewis, C. Butler, A. Jamison, Arenas, K. Durant, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, C. Boozer

mrblisterdundee
06-02-2009, 12:27 AM
You could argue that there are one, two, or three elite players at each position, and it doesn't make any sense. It's a case by case situation.

Elite:
LeBron James (MVP)
Kobe Bryant (former MVP, leader of one of the best teams)
Chris Paul (the best point guard)
Deron Williams (only other point guard in Paul's league)
Dwight Howard (beast of the NBA)
Tim Duncan (the "big fundamental" is elite until he stops averaging 20 and 10)
Brandon Roy (led a team of rookies to the playoffs, 3rd best shooting guard)
Kevin Garnett (psychologically elite)
Dwayne Wade (most talented shooting guard in NBA)

NYtilIdie
06-02-2009, 01:05 AM
Roy isn't overrated he is clutch and can come through for his team when they need him the most. He is in top 5 of 4th quarter scoring which is where most teams decide if they are going home with a victory or with a defeat. Really you overrate the Blazers yes there a good team, but you take out Roy and their not making the playoffs not in the west. Nobody is going to carry that team through clutch moments if you take out Roy. They have 1 guy thats good off the bench and thats Outlaw, but he can disappear at times and Oden isn't a guarantee each night every-now and then he'll have a 10 pt game, but other then that don't expect much from him and Albridge can't carry a team to victory let alone the playoffs. So really Roy is the only thing keeping that team together.

BigEric
06-02-2009, 02:18 AM
I don't understand the Roy love. I, too, think he is overrated. I can't even put Roy into the top 10. It's nothing at all against Roy. I just don't see it yet. He's top 10 at his position, but I can't say he is overall. Maybe others are just seeing things faster than I am.

Thank you. Another PSD poster on my side.

valade16
06-02-2009, 03:26 AM
I've noticed in this debate over whether Roy is an elite player it's always

Those that haven't watched many of his games and use purely stats say he isn't an elite player

Those that have seen him play more than a handfull of times say he is elite.

I think that is a complement to Roy. Not only does he effect the game, he does it without scoring 30 points a night...

You can use the semantical argument that he isn't an elite player YET, but that pretty much concedes that he will be either next year or the year after...

cmacmath
06-02-2009, 08:40 AM
I think some of you people might be nuts, but I think you will come around in the next couple of years. Brandon Roy is easily top 7 in this league. The top 5 are obvious...Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Paul, Howard....But I could argue that Roy is next...People even insinuating that Melo is better are clearly just living in the moment because there is no way you would have said that last year and if Melo is playing with Steve Blake instead of Chauncey Billups your not saying that...

Ron Artest might be a little crazy, but he won Defensive Player of the Year in this league and is one of the best on ball defenders and he said Brandon Roy is the best player he has ever played against...now,you ask him that again in a month he will probably change his tune and say Kobe, but the fact he even said that means he obviously thinks he is top 5 AT LEAST!!

f19ure
06-02-2009, 11:13 AM
Ron Artest might be a little crazy, but he won Defensive Player of the Year in this league and is one of the best on ball defenders and he said Brandon Roy is the best player he has ever played against...now,you ask him that again in a month he will probably change his tune and say Kobe, but the fact he even said that means he obviously thinks he is top 5 AT LEAST!!

LOL

If you're gonna' use that argument to back up your claims than you might as well give up right now. Everybody (in the sporting world) knows those comments were meant to goad Kobe (i.e., "not even he's ever scored 40 on me"). They were a slight to get into the man's head (and it worked to an extent didn't it?). That's what good defenders, good players period, do. They get into your head.

Now, as for Roy being better than Melo. You hittin' the pipe. Melo is one of the great offensive scoring threats of our generation. His defensive skills are still a bit raw, but the work he did on Nowitzki (he made the man work for his 35 points) was on point. Especially when you consider the height and weight advantage that goes in Dirk's favor. Now you're right about his leadership skills, they're not all that good, but he's learnin' from a really great pick up in Chauncey Billups. As I've said before, Melo's my man, and I was in no way bias when I designated who was "elite" and who wasn't. I left Melo out, 'cuz clearly he's got a ways to go. But he'll get there, and quicker than Brandon Roy. :D

cmacmath
06-02-2009, 01:24 PM
Quicker than Brandon Roy? Brandon Roy has been in the NBA 3 seasons and made the All-Star team twice and was named to the 2nd Team All-NBA...Carmelo Anthony has been in the NBA 6 years and has 2 All-Star bids and has never been higher than 3rd team All-NBA...I must be smoking something...

cmacmath
06-02-2009, 01:28 PM
Brandon Roy is everything that is right about the game of basketball...a throwback to an older era of basketball being played the correct way...the equivelant of a 5 tool player in baseball, does a little bit of everything to help his team win...Carmelo is a one dimensional player, a scorer who (like Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, etc.) is everything that is wrong with basketball...you are questioning my sporting intelligence when clearly you must be a teenager

Chronz
06-02-2009, 01:38 PM
I question your intelligence if you called Tmac one-dimensional scorer. His scoring ability is probably the most overrated aspect of his offensive game, truth be told, Roy played the EXACT same style of play that Tmac did for JVG. Only Roy is doing it better more efficiently, though Tmac in his early Rocket days was a much better defender and rebounder.

Tmac's game used to be beautiful to watch, in his heyday he was a mixture of Bron and Kobe, but with a deadlier more consistent jumpshot.

f19ure
06-02-2009, 02:00 PM
Quicker than Brandon Roy? Brandon Roy has been in the NBA 3 seasons and made the All-Star team twice and was named to the 2nd Team All-NBA...Carmelo Anthony has been in the NBA 6 years and has 2 All-Star bids and has never been higher than 3rd team All-NBA...I must be smoking something...

Lol (again)!

You're using the All-Star games and the All-NBA team as gauging mechanisms.

1. The All-Star games are a popularity contests, in which the most popular player at their respected positions gets voted in. Same goes for the All-NBA team, generally the player with the most wins and in other cases (regardless of wins), the player with the most mind-blowing stats (like in Chris Paul's case) makes the selection. In Brandon Roy's case it was wins, not to mention this year the Nuggets' MVP wasn't Melo, but Billups.

2. Going back to the All-Star games, Melo plays a position chalk-full of competition, there's Dirk, Duncan, Amar'e, Durant's coming along, and soon, there'll be Griffin (he'll stand to miss a few All-Star games, especially with guys like that). At the guard position, outside of Paul, Bryant whose next on the popularity contest? Roy. But, in all truth and honesty, Roy snubbed Williams twice, a guard who was far more deserving of an All-Star selection (especially last year). But hey, it's the luck of the draw, and Roy does play in a bigger market.

3. If we're to look at the three, Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony and Brandon Roy. Williams is the closest to reaching that "elite" tier. He had a stellar sophomore season in which he lead his team to the Western Conference Finals. Had an equally impressive successive season in '07-08. Yet he's made no All-Star games, and to date has nothing but the All-NBA Second Team nods he got in '08.


Brandon Roy is everything that is right about the game of basketball...a throwback to an older era of basketball being played the correct way...the equivelant of a 5 tool player in baseball, does a little bit of everything to help his team win...Carmelo is a one dimensional player, a scorer who (like Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, etc.) is everything that is wrong with basketball...you are questioning my sporting intelligence when clearly you must be a teenager

1. I am a teenager, so what? Actually I'm closer to 20 than I am to 19.

2. Carmelo is not a 1-dimensional player. Not after this season, he's got raw defensive talent that still needs some work. But, to say that he plays bad defense when he tries (and he tried with a lot more consistency this year) is erroneous. He's also added a post-up game to his offensive artillery, Melo was heavily reliant on his mid-range game in the hey-day of the "Thuggets," but his post-up game's bailed him out offensively a few times this year, and it's something he's gone to a lot more than in year's past. He's also a better rebounder and just as good a passer as some of the upper tier guards. I mean, I really don't see how he's 1-dimensional?

Chronz
06-02-2009, 04:38 PM
Is Portland a big market? Roy and Melo is very comparable, in terms of impact, but totally different in style of play and pace preference.

cmacmath
06-02-2009, 04:48 PM
Lol (again)!

You're using the All-Star games and the All-NBA team as gauging mechanisms.

1. The All-Star games are a popularity contests, in which the most popular player at their respected positions gets voted in. Same goes for the All-NBA team, generally the player with the most wins and in other cases (regardless of wins), the player with the most mind-blowing stats (like in Chris Paul's case) makes the selection. In Brandon Roy's case it was wins, not to mention this year the Nuggets' MVP wasn't Melo, but Billups.

2. Going back to the All-Star games, Melo plays a position chalk-full of competition, there's Dirk, Duncan, Amar'e, Durant's coming along, and soon, there'll be Griffin (he'll stand to miss a few All-Star games, especially with guys like that). At the guard position, outside of Paul, Bryant whose next on the popularity contest? Roy. But, in all truth and honesty, Roy snubbed Williams twice, a guard who was far more deserving of an All-Star selection (especially last year). But hey, it's the luck of the draw, and Roy does play in a bigger market.

3. If we're to look at the three, Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony and Brandon Roy. Williams is the closest to reaching that "elite" tier. He had a stellar sophomore season in which he lead his team to the Western Conference Finals. Had an equally impressive successive season in '07-08. Yet he's made no All-Star games, and to date has nothing but the All-NBA Second Team nods he got in '08.



1. I am a teenager, so what? Actually I'm closer to 20 than I am to 19.

2. Carmelo is not a 1-dimensional player. Not after this season, he's got raw defensive talent that still needs some work. But, to say that he plays bad defense when he tries (and he tried with a lot more consistency this year) is erroneous. He's also added a post-up game to his offensive artillery, Melo was heavily reliant on his mid-range game in the hey-day of the "Thuggets," but his post-up game's bailed him out offensively a few times this year, and it's something he's gone to a lot more than in year's past. He's also a better rebounder and just as good a passer as some of the upper tier guards. I mean, I really don't see how he's 1-dimensional?

This is sad...I feel bad about doing this to you...I almost feel like I'm picking on my kid brother...

1. Yes, I use All-Star games as guaging mechanisms when the COACHES VOTE YOU IN AS A RESERVE...I think they know a little bit more than you or I...and yes I use ALL NBA selections because guess what, when its time to vote for the Hall of Fame they will use this criteria too...and are you disagreeing with me or making my argument for me when you say these selections are based on wins and stats and that Billups was the MVP not Melo??, haha

2. I'll agree with you about the depth, that is fine, but Portland isn't exactly a big market............

3. No need to argue with you...huge supporter of Deron Williams and turned around on Melo this year...I would have all 3 in my top 9 players in the NBA, but would have Roy 7, Melo 8, and Williams 9 so I guess its not that big of a deal...more just defending Roy

1. I should not have picked on your age and therefore I apologize, lol

2. You hit on it perfectly yourself...when you said "not after this season"...Carmelo finally got it this year...and I think thats a big nod to Billups...IMO before this season Melo was an amazing high school player, an amazing college player, and an amazing Olympic player who hadn't quite figured out the NBA game...but this year he finally got it...this year he left my "Most overrated players" list and scorched into my Top 10 list...

SOOOO...I guess there is no sense in beating each other up...You prefer Melo, I prefer Roy, but I like them both, just gotta defend my boy in this forum because he is DEFINATELY an elite player...

theuuord
06-02-2009, 11:08 PM
how do people forget Tim Duncan so fast?

My top 7:
1) James
2) Wade
3) Paul
4) Bryant
5) Howard
6) Duncan
7) Roy

Those guys are really the first class of the NBA. Everyone else is one step below.

BMun
06-03-2009, 03:32 AM
I think that elite players would be the best of the best. The superstars of the superstars. I would consider guys that have shown that they can put their teams on their backs and carry them.

Right now it's Kobe, Lebron and Wade. Just on the outside of that group I would say maybe Dirk and PP, (although Rondo might be the leader that team soon).

There are a list of guys that are on their way up: Howard, CP3, Roy, DWill etc. and a list of guys that used to be in that group but now are on the down-slope and maybe can't do it themselves anymore: Duncan, Shaq, KG

But that's just my opinion

GREATNESS ONE
06-03-2009, 04:56 AM
You guys are crazy if you dont think DWILL is a stud And im a Laker Fan.

Kobe,Lebron,Wade,CP3,Dwill,Howard,KG,Duncan,Dirk theres your list.

ragee
06-03-2009, 02:48 PM
@ragee

No Bias, do you realize the 03-04 Cavs were a team being led by a rookie draftee. No one enters the league an elite-level player, you gradually become one. LeBron was a freak of nature, granted, but at that time he was no where close to the elite-level player he is today. And no, the 03-04 Cavs were not better than the 00-01 Mavs, who had veteran players in Nash, Nowitzki, and Finley. At the time, Finley himself, was putting up better offensive numbers than either LeBron or Boozer.

I wasn't talking just about 04-05, but '04 through '07. You're right about Smush not playing on the 04-05 team though. And I do remember the trio of Bryant, Butler, and Odom. Jackson was actually attempting to utilize the old triangle offense method he'd used in his earlier days. But, it ultimately failed. And it failed for a number of reasons, primarily, poor sportsmanship and bad chemistry among Laker players. Granted, Bryant and Butler excelled, playing great together, but Odom and the rest of the team failed to excel under the system. Odom did post some pretty decent numbers, but numbers can actually be misleading, because they don't show intangibles. It was nothing on the 04-05 Lakers, they were a good offensive team, but where they excelled at scoring, they were equally bad at defending. It's not that I'm defending Kobe, he wasn't particularly good at getting his team to execute the plays he wanted them to execute (which shows a lack of leadership). But, despite having Butler and Odom, the caliber of his team was nowhere near as good as Dwight's (Bryant's 05-06 and 06-07 teams were actually even worse than the 04-05 team).

Let's look at the cast of players shall we? Dwight had (to start the season) a great offensive 1-guard in Jameer Nelson, a nice little pick-up from Western Kentucky in Courtney Lee (already a heckler on perimeter defense with a nice little running floater to boot), a point forward in Hedo Turkoglu, a Power Forward who stretches the defense, and a dangerous bench that can shoot lights out from 3-pt range and even offers up Post-play (Gortat) when Howard either gets tired or picks up early fouls. Don't compare Howard's Magic to the 04-05 Lakers, it's a travesty.

So you see (maybe you don't), my criteria for picking who's an elite-level player isn't flawed.

Ok... Let's try to see how flawless your criteria for determining the elite players is...

First, you talk about how elite players can lead a team to the playoffs without having a good supporting roster... Despite that, you have failed to mention KG who led the T-Wolves to a couple of playoff appearances without really having a decent supporting cast... Then, the ones that you mentioned that has, you fabricated facts to make your statement seem stronger like:

"Kobe Bryant, in all his years as a Laker, only failed to qualify for the playoffs once in his career, and that was when Smush Parker was his second option. That wasn't an average team, or even a marginally bad team. That was a BAD team. And yet, eventually, Bryant lead them to two straight postseasons."

Smush Parker was never a second option, after Shaq, he had Odom and Butler... That is not a great team but that is not as bad as you may think it is... You said Kobe and Butler played well together and Odom never really got into Jackson's system but put up some good numbers... Despite your assumptions, Odom was the one who stayed and Butler was the one traded...
You say they are good offensively but terrible n the defensive end... Yet you still neglect that fact the the Mavs 2000-01 roster is just as bad... You talk about bad defense? Dude, their pg is Steve Nash... Enough said... It is nowhere close to Dwight's? I am not talking about the 08-09 Magic because they are legit and has a chance to win the championship this year... I am talking about the first time he led the Magic to the playoffs... Who did he have? Jameer Nelson and Hedo who were yet to improve and were big liabilities in the defensive end!!! That was a bad team!

"James has never missed a post season, except his first two seasons in the league (trust me, in those days, outside of James and Ilgauskas, you had nobody on that team). Since, James has never fared worse than a Semifinal exit. And yet, to this day, James doesn't have the caliber of players surrounding him that Brandon Roy does, Carmelo Anthony does, or Kobe Bryant does (to name a few)."

Outside James and Z he had nobody? Why didn't you include Boozer? From all the teams that we have mentioned, that is probably the best team... Z was still in his prime playing great basketball and if you don't believe me, tell me why they chose him over Boozer then? Boozer was putting up big numbers... I think he as in the top 10 in rebounding... 12 rpg... And he is a scoring threat as well... You call that a bad team?

"Wade's cast of D-League level talent and youth..."

This was only last year... Before that year, He had Butler, Odom and Haslem... Then Shaq, Haslem, White Chocolate, James Posey, Antoine Walker, Gary Payton etc... That was the one that won the championship... They were a good team... The Mavs were just better and that is when Wade stepped it up a notch to give his team a boost... It is not like he took the Heat to the Finals and won the championship all by himself...

Now tell me that your evaluation isn't flawed... Your credibility just went down the drain right after you said Smush Parker was Kobe's second option...

Now let's go to your statement about players don't enter the NBA as elite players right away...

Do you know guys like Wilt Chamberlain and Wes Unseld? The only players who won Rookie of the Year and MVP at the same year? Not elite enough for you? Do you know a guy that goes by the name of Magic Johnson? A guy who stepped up and played starting center even if he was a pg in his rookie year after their main guy got injured and won the championship for the Lakers? Still not elite enough for you? I believe Lebron, MJ, Shaq and Duncan were already elite players when they entered the league... The only reason Lebron has not won a championship is because his team is just an ok team... not great and not bad either... Oh, and this year's Cavs? You are telling me that they are also as bad as the others we have mentioned? Dude, how can you have the best record in the league if your whole team other than one player sucks?! How can you have swept the Pistons who have a lot of experience and the Hawks who took the Celtics to game 7 last year if team was bad?!!! They were a good team... The Magic were just better and created a lot of matchup problems for them...

I think the main flaw in your argument is you just look at offensive end of the player's game... You don't look at anything else... KG is not scoring as much anymore and Dwight's post up game still has a lot of work to do but their defense are outstanding... You don't include Dwight even if he had led a team to the playoffs (again I am not alking about this year, I am talking about the their first playoffs) without a decent supporting cast just like what you are saying about Kobe, Lebron and Wade because of his offensive game... Yes he has flaws but he can still manage to score 20 a game... Not only that, he is no. 1 in shot blocking and rebounding... He also make his teammates better... Do you think Lewis and the crew can score as much if Dwight is not in there?

f19ure
06-03-2009, 07:35 PM
@ragee

1- KG didn't have a supporting cast? I think you fail to realize KG played with the likes of Cassell, Gugliotta, Marbury, Szczerbiak (who excelled under Saunders' system), and Sprewell. Now he plays with the likes of Allen, Pierce, and Rondo. Fact of the matter is, the years KG made the playoffs, he had talent, whether it was a good floor general in Marbury or Cassell, or great offensive pick-ups in Sprewell or Szczerbiak. I'll say this about KG, he's a great defensive leader, he's definitely in the discussion for the greatest defensive leader of all-time. And as for my being only impressed by offensive-minded players, check my fav 5 (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9673300#post9673300) line-up. Something I whipped up yesterday. I recognize defense, in all the players I critique. But the fact of the matter is, KG was never an elite 4ward.

2- I in no way misconstrued facts, Smush played alongside Kobe as a second option for two years, that's a fact. Smush was the other player who handled the ball, the player whose duty it was to make the right plays, both by creating and providing offense. In all truth and honesty, he was the other go to guy, not Odom. Not to mention, Odom has always had consistency problems, it continues to this day, even with the level of talent around Bryant being better. Odom is the type of guy that'll give you 20-20-3 one night (points/rebounds/blocks respectively) and 9-4-0 the next. You didn't (and still don't) know what you were (or are) gonna' get with Odom, you did with Butler. That's why I said he played well alongside Bryant, the reason they traded him, was because he was eligible for free-agency that off-season. Kobe was set to make over $20 million at the end of that season, and another 20+ mill the following season. There was no way they were going to be able to afford Bryant's (huge) contract, Odom's and Butler's and make moves throughout the season to surround Bryant with more talent. In many ways, Kobe had made his bed, and had to lie in it. They traded Butler right before the summer free-agency, got very little in return (but, with Butler's expiring contract on the block, that was more or less a given).

Laker management assumed Odom would provide them with good inside help and be the better talent (and he is, when he "puts in work"). Unfortunately, that never panned out (due to consistency issues), and that's why Bryant was pissed with them for trading Butler. You call me out for not being able to assess talent, but fact of the matter is, the more consistent player wasn't Odom, it was Butler. Heck, between Smush and Odom, it was Smush. With Smush you knew you were getting anywhere from 10-15 points a game. With Odom you didn't know if you were getting 25 or 5. Now that's a drastic dip, and it also throws a team's balance off base.

3- Regarding the Magic, Nelson is still a liability on defense, and actually, so is the rest of the Magic team (that's how they've blown big leads to teams throughout the year). Howard is not the interior defender he should be. I still bestow that honor on Tim Duncan, who is without a doubt the most dominant paint defender. But, Howard, along with Josh Smith, are without a doubt the two best shot-blockers in the league (right now).

Now as to the Magic team that barely made the playoffs, no, they were not that good. But, you have to factor in several things: a really weak conference at the time (the East is a lot better now), I mean outside of Detroit, Cleveland and Chicago who stood a chance of winning the Eastern Conference Finals in '07? 3 contenders? The rest providing nothing more than exercise. That barely constitutes a fair premise on judging whether Dwight Howard lead his team to their first playoff or just had the fortune of playing in a weak conference at the time. Howard's team then, definitely wouldn't have made the post-season this year (in this much tighter Eastern Conference), no matter how many 20-20 games Howard would have produced.

At least the 05-06 Lakers (the first team Kobe lead to a playoffs) played in a tighter conference and challenged the first seed for the right to move on. It ended with the Suns winning it in 7 (but, surprisingly, the Lakers, were the better team at times). And when James lead his team to their first post-season, he didn't just crawl in, he established himself as a contender for the East (bowing out in the second round to Detroit).

4- Having a young LeBron James, young Boozer, and aging Ilgauskas hardly constitutes a better team than some of the one's we've mentioned. That's a team with potential, granted, because it has a great offensive rebounder in Boozer, a versatile player in LeBron James and a veteran player in Ilgauskas whose familiarity with the system adds value. But, that's it, they were a building block to capitalize on. Unfortunately, that never panned out. Boozer left via free agency, and not because the Cavs didn't want to re-sign him or because they thought Z was more valuable. So, they had to start from scratch, fortunately for them, James began showing signs of the elite player he is in his sophomore season. And, despite losing Boozer, because James was able to better carry his team, the Cavaliers improved.

5- The year the Heat won the championship, Odom and Butler were already gone. Wade only played one season with those two, his rookie campaign. What set them apart from the Mavs, their championship year, was their defense. Granted, Shaq was slow off his feet, but Dallas didn't have any dominant post play. Dirk got his 30 a game, but he had to work for it with Zo and Haslem hounding him. Defensively, they caused match-up problems for the Mavs, who had no answers for the Heat. But, in no way was Wade helped on the offensive end (fortunately for him, neither was Dirk), Wade had to carry that team offensively in the Finals, and that's a fact.

6- I'll agree with you there, Unseld was an elite Forward his first season. Like Jabbar, he single-handedly turned around a franchise, and unlike Chamberlain, played in a more contact oriented era (in other words, people didn't shy away from physicality). Same goes for Johnson, but both were guys who had the chance to blossom and mature within the college system. By the time they came into the league, they were fine tuned and polished. James came into the league raw, he put up some impressive numbers, but like most young rookies that haven't been battle tested by the more professional aspect of college hoops (straight outta' high school prospects, or one-and-done deals), he was met with inconsistency.

And I didn't mention this years Cavs, nor did I say they sucked. There were some good pick-ups, a good slashing PG in West, and a good shooter in Williams. But, to say James has the quality of players Howard or Carmelo or even Kobe Bryant has? There's no basis in that. He's got a decent team to work with, they need to get better. And though the Pistons have been good in the past, they were completely lost this season, and have actually been a bad match-up against the Cavaliers the last several seasons. So, it's no credit to what the Cavs did to the Pistons this post-season. And Atlanta had to be the most inconsistent team this season (except for maybe Philadelphia). No way were they going to challenge Cleveland.

7- It's funny how you say I only look at offense and not the intangibles, when I'm not the one whose been trying to argue with the offensive stats Odom and Boozer put up. The fact of the matter is, you thought they put up good numbers on the teams they played for but failed to assess the intangibles: youth, inconsistency, bad D, the list goes on... those are factors which are gonna' affect how a team is going to perform. Not how many points two people are scoring. Melo and Iverson had to be one of the highest scoring duos, they struggled to make the playoffs each season. Then you go on to state that I fail to recognize KG and Dwight Howard as elite despite there great defense. First off, Howard isn't a great defender, he's a great shot-blocker. There's a difference. As I've said before, he doesn't dominate the paint as he should. And KG is a great defensive leader, but he's never been able to single-handedly carry one of his bad ball clubs out of the Conference cellar. And as for Dwight making his teammates better, that's laughable. He makes the Magic team better with him in the line-up, but his team's proved a good many times that they can maintain leads with him resting and win games without him. I told you, the Magic are a deep ball squad, they've got performers in just about everybody. Don't underestimate them, they would have f***ed the Cavs even with him out of the rotation. Gortat actually played even better interior defense than Howard. Like you said, they posed match-up problems for the Cavs.

Ebbs
06-03-2009, 08:00 PM
dude you are a fool!
only tim duncan, yeah he was but hes out of gas.

How about Dirk Nowitzki who has made it to the nba finals won an mvp and lead his team to a 67 win season regardless of there playoff failures?
Kevin Garnett? Need i say more an absolute stallion with an mvp, defensive player of the year award, and championship ring
As good as chris Paul is he has accomplished zero of the feats above there and hes an elite player.
And Dwight is an aubvious choice for an elite player.