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Half-Truism
05-29-2009, 08:44 PM
Jerry Crasnick of ESPN.com wrote a story about plate discipline (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=4136793) and this part about Jeff jumped out at me. For the record, it's not Jeff that I'm upset about.

For Atlanta outfielder Jeff Francoeur, the search for a more disciplined approach is elusive and the source of occasional torment. Francoeur began this season with loose goals of 80 strikeouts and 50 to 60 walks. But he's always been an aggressive player, and he's wary of becoming too passive in the quest for a higher OBP.

"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" Francoeur says.

What? No wonder when people start slumping they stay around forever. How many times have we heard them talk about TP telling people to be more aggressive at the plate? Now we're hearing that getting on base isn't important?

I remember Kelly talking in spring training about how TP has been trying to drill it in his head for years now that being as patient as he is at the plate only leads to bad things. Saying things like you may only get one pitch to hit in the at-bat and if you watch it go by because you want a better one, you're done. Here's Chipper's take:

"For me, plate discipline is being able to know what pitch you want to put in play before you step in the box and not swinging at anything else but that," Jones says. "A lot of young hitters go up there and look for the first strike. They could be sitting on the fastball, but they still swing at the curveball."

"That's where young hitters make outs, whereas older hitters might sit on the fastball, then spit on the curveball, spit on the changeup and spit on the slider until they get that one fastball in the count. If you go up there with a game plan of knowing what pitch you want to put in play, it automatically makes you a much more selective hitter."

Why can't we just pay Chipper a coach's salary too and fire the bum that creates the approach and mindset this team has had for years that has made them unsuccessful at the plate, particularly when being selective is the smart thing to do.

AustinTheGreat
05-29-2009, 08:47 PM
Ya Pendelton is not too high on my list of liked people. I know our hitters are bad but im sure he could make them better. How long does time go until he and Schafer figure out how to hit that fastball??

Half-Truism
05-29-2009, 08:49 PM
Somebody needs to say something to Wren about Pendelton.

atl_braves_fan
05-29-2009, 09:29 PM
The best chef in the world couldn't make filet mignon out of Spam.

The problem is the players, not the coaches. KJ has always been streaky, Frenchy has always been a free swinger, and Schafer is just overmatched right now. Nothing TP can do about any of that.

Half-Truism
05-29-2009, 09:43 PM
The best chef in the world couldn't make filet mignon out of Spam.

The problem is the players, not the coaches. KJ has always been streaky, Frenchy has always been a free swinger, and Schafer is just overmatched right now. Nothing TP can do about any of that.

So what's the point of having a Hitting Coach then?

Jacob10
05-29-2009, 10:28 PM
The best chef in the world couldn't make filet mignon out of Spam.

The problem is the players, not the coaches. KJ has always been streaky, Frenchy has always been a free swinger, and Schafer is just overmatched right now. Nothing TP can do about any of that.


But Kelley Johnson, Schafer, and Francoeur aren't spam. They are potential fillets, using your analogy. They were highly regarded prospects, and players who have at times shown flashes of greatness.

I'm not going to go as far as to say Terry is the problem, but it doesn't look like he's helping much.

AustinTheGreat
05-30-2009, 01:14 AM
i know that a player is really as only good as his talent. But a hitting coach can take you far. If we had that Texas hitting coach as ours fulltime i think we would be way better. Yes frenchy worked with him and u guys will say it didnt work. But to start the season frenchy looked great. Maybe he lost touch with his strategy and that coaches skills and what not. Just one offseason with him wouldnt fix frenchy. BUt if we had a good hitting coach to work with these kids then they would improve.

Jon93405
05-30-2009, 02:44 AM
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" Francoeur says.

This is a major problem.

atl_braves_fan
05-30-2009, 09:03 AM
So what's the point of having a Hitting Coach then?

A hitting coach can help, but he can only take players as far as they are willing to work with him to go. If a player is not even interested in trying something different, the hitting coach is helpless.

rtgthree
05-30-2009, 11:52 AM
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" Francoeur says.
I can't believe you guys never heard that quote before. It's been out there for a while. In fact, the guys over at the fine Braves blog Talking Chop turned it into a sweet T-shirt.

http://www.talkingchop.com/2009/5/23/884805/failcoeur-t-shirt-on-sale-contest

What? No wonder when people start slumping they stay around forever. How many times have we heard them talk about TP telling people to be more aggressive at the plate? Now we're hearing that getting on base isn't important?
Wait, who does Crasnick quote? Not Pendleton...this is Francoeur talking. And Francoeur has been an impatient hacker since long before he ever heard of Terry Pendleton; even in the minors he swung at everything. Hitters aren't just automatons programmed by the hitting coach. They are major-league players...the coaches are there to help, but the players make their own adjustments and their own decisions. I'm not going to pretend that Pendleton is a great hitting coach, because I honestly don't know. But you're going way overboard to assume that TP believes OBP isn't important. (As a side note, most hitting coaches probably don't focus on OBP at all either...it's still not all that widely accepted in coaching/scouting circles.)

I remember Kelly talking in spring training about how TP has been trying to drill it in his head for years now that being as patient as he is at the plate only leads to bad things.
Could you link to that, please? I recall Johnson saying that he was trying to be more aggressive when he was struggling, but it's only natural to try something different when you're in the midst of a giant slump. I highly doubt that a major-league hitting coach would flat-out say "patience is bad." It's important to realize also that there is such a thing as being too patient.

I know our hitters are bad but im sure he could make them better.
Evidence, please?

So what's the point of having a Hitting Coach then?
A hitting coach can't turn spam into a filet. He can turn a raw filet into a cooked filet, though...that's his job. But there are a couple problems with the cooking analogy: first, chefs generally don't have problems with uncooperative steak. The steak doesn't have a will of its own...major-league players, on the other hand, have their own beliefs about how they want to be cooked, and they aren't always the same as the way the chef wants to cook them. Second, sometimes guys that are supposed to be filets actually turn out to be spam once you start cooking them. Francoeur is a perfect example of a guy that had all the tools in the world but could never put them together because he never learned any plate discipline. That isn't all Pendleton's fault, since hitting is such a delicate balance...try to make him more patient, and he might lose some power. Frenchy was always one of those prospects "who could be good IF..." Most of the time, those prospects don't meet the "ifs"...just ask Sean Burroughs or Toby Hall.

But Kelley Johnson, Schafer, and Francoeur aren't spam. They are potential fillets, using your analogy. They were highly regarded prospects, and players who have at times shown flashes of greatness.
Yeah, but look at the percentage of highly-regarded prospects that actually make it in the majors. Johnson has fulfilled his potential...he is a top-10 major-league second baseman. Schafer hasn't had time to fulfill his potential yet; he needs more time in the minors to avoid becoming Francoeur, Part Deux.

If we had that Texas hitting coach as ours fulltime i think we would be way better....BUt if we had a good hitting coach to work with these kids then they would improve.
Evidence, please?

uncblue2332
05-30-2009, 01:11 PM
A hitting coach can't turn spam into a filet. He can turn a raw filet into a cooked filet, though...that's his job. But there are a couple problems with the cooking analogy: first, chefs generally don't have problems with uncooperative steak. The steak doesn't have a will of its own...major-league players, on the other hand, have their own beliefs about how they want to be cooked, and they aren't always the same as the way the chef wants to cook them. Second, sometimes guys that are supposed to be filets actually turn out to be spam once you start cooking them. Francoeur is a perfect example of a guy that had all the tools in the world but could never put them together because he never learned any plate discipline. That isn't all Pendleton's fault, since hitting is such a delicate balance...try to make him more patient, and he might lose some power. Frenchy was always one of those prospects "who could be good IF..." Most of the time, those prospects don't meet the "ifs"...just ask Sean Burroughs or Toby Hall.


Wow could you over analyze a simple metaphor any more jesus f^ing christ

nps6724
06-01-2009, 12:02 AM
How many threads and posts are going to be made that blame TP for Jeff's shortcomings while ignoring all the contrary evidence? Besides Kelly, Prado, and Jeff, every other non-rookie is equaling or surpassing their career averages in most offensive categories. That includes the bench as well. And Schafer was rushed to the majors without learning basic hitting. Jeff's struggles are due to the type of hitter Jeff is (impatient, no discipline) and Jeff's attitude (the aforementioned quote shows Jeff to know very little about baseball besides the basics). Anyone who thinks OBP is unimportant because it's not on the scoreboard is an idiot. But that does explain why after hitting .293 with 51 XBH in 2007 he bulked up to try and hit more HR because it's on the scoreboard and that's all that counts. He's such a huge disappointment. I wish he could be more like McCann. In several ways.

serGeant
06-01-2009, 04:23 AM
It is entirely possible that Francouer needs a new hitting mentor, however that does not necessarily mean the Braves need a new hitting coach. Frency has always been a free swinger and, while something is clearly wrong with his plate approach, I don't think this is a reflection on Pendleton's abilities as a hitting coach. No hitting coach can maximize every hitter's potential, they can just do the best they can. And since no team is full of .300 hitters, I think we can be sure that every coach's influence fluctuates from player to player. Basically, I'm saying that Frenchy may need a new hitting coach, but that does not necessarily mean the Braves do.

littleknighty
06-01-2009, 07:30 AM
This doesn't matter much but it surprised me a little. TPs career Ba was 270 and his OBP was 316. I thought they would have been 40 points higher. TP walked some but not alot. I still think he will take over for Bobby next year.

wolfman2
06-01-2009, 07:53 AM
i wish we still had Don Baylor as our hitting coach

uncblue2332
06-01-2009, 10:23 AM
This doesn't matter much but it surprised me a little. TPs career Ba was 270 and his OBP was 316. I thought they would have been 40 points higher. TP walked some but not alot. I still think he will take over for Bobby next year.

He wont and the reason is if you arent even the hitting coach on your team (because Chipper obviously is the hitting coach) why should we bump you up when there are experienced guys like Ned Yost out there for the taking. Players already dont listen to him as their HC, they go the chipp, if he becomes manager who are they going to listen to? Frank Wren?

rtgthree
06-01-2009, 10:41 AM
He wont and the reason is if you arent even the hitting coach on your team (because Chipper obviously is the hitting coach) why should we bump you up when there are experienced guys like Ned Yost out there for the taking. Players already dont listen to him as their HC, they go the chipp, if he becomes manager who are they going to listen to? Frank Wren?

You have no evidence that "players don't listen to him." None whatsoever. Look, this thread basically accuses Bobby Cox and Frank Wren of complete incompetence. If Terry Pendleton was telling players to swing at everything, or if no one was listening to him anyway, you think Wren and Cox would be too stupid to notice? Or that they just wouldn't care?

Again, I'm not saying that TP is the best hitting coach on earth. Not even saying he's a GOOD hitting coach. But you don't stay a major-league coach for as long as he has if you suck, and some of you seem to think that suck is all he does. Could the Braves do better? Probably. Is Pendleton a worthless waste of space and money? I doubt it.

nps6724
06-01-2009, 10:45 AM
What is funny is how so many think TP isn't good based on ONLY Francoeur. They continually ignore all the players doing as good or better than their normal statlines.

uncblue2332
06-01-2009, 12:03 PM
What is funny is how so many think TP isn't good based on ONLY Francoeur. They continually ignore all the players doing as good or better than their normal statlines.

the thing that irks me as TP not being good is consistently you hear about players going to chipp and not TP. They work with chipp alot not work with our HC. Thats what makes it seem as though chipp is a 3rd baseman and the hitting coach. Im all for players asking other players for tips and advice but when you work with the player only instead of the player and HC it really says something to me.

rtgthree
06-01-2009, 12:11 PM
^^^Could you link to an article or something? I've heard of players asking Chipper for tips, but that doesn't mean they don't talk to Pendleton. Young pitchers used to talk to Maddux and Glavine and Smoltz all the time for advice, but that didn't mean they were ignoring Leo Mazzone. It's not accurate to say that other players work with Chipper "only."

uncblue2332
06-01-2009, 12:18 PM
For one they consistently talk about chipp working with schafer on the braves broadcast and here is a link that states Chipp and Pendleton go and work with schafer in the cage but chipp takes the lead and it seems that pendleton says little to nothing
http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2009/05/22/chipper_jones_hitting.html

rtgthree
06-01-2009, 12:27 PM
^^^From that article:


I dont mind because Chipper may see something that I didnt pick up with one of the guys, Pendleton said. I dont profess to know everything, and these kids can probably teach me something out here at different times.

For the umpteenth time, I don't really have an opinion either way on Pendleton, but this humility sounds like a GOOD quality in a coach. Coaches can't get through to every player. When I played, I had an assistant coach that just knew how to help me. Not that he was better or worse than our head coach, but he and I just communicated better. It wasn't a bad reflection on our head coach, because there were other players that swore by his help.

There's a big difference between Pendleton letting Chipper help, and Schafer ignoring Pendleton. Again, you never read about Kelly Johnson or David Ross or Yunel Escobar going to Chipper for help. You have to remember the media lens that you're reading this through. There's only a story when something is wrong. The guys that are just doing what they are supposed to do...the media don't bother with them. Just because they aren't coming out every chance they get to glorify Pendleton doesn't mean he's not helping them. If you ask me, the best coaches are the ones you never hear anything about...they just do their jobs behind the scenes. Every now and again, you get a legend like a Mazzone or a Jaramillo, but most guys just do their jobs quietly.

Again, you have to remember that if Pendleton really is as worthless as you say he is, then Wren and Cox really are pretty deaf and dumb.

nps6724
06-01-2009, 12:29 PM
the thing that irks me as TP not being good is consistently you hear about players going to chipp and not TP. They work with chipp alot not work with our HC. Thats what makes it seem as though chipp is a 3rd baseman and the hitting coach. Im all for players asking other players for tips and advice but when you work with the player only instead of the player and HC it really says something to me.

Normal behavior is to ask a teacher for help so it routinely goes unmentioned. It wouldn't be a big deal if Mac said TP helped him with his swing so what would be the point of printing it? I see it as a team effort between the two. I've also heard Joe and Boog and Chip talking about how sometimes it's easier to listen to a peer than a teacher and when you have a resource like Chipper, it's best to use it.

Overall though, I really don't think there's ANY HC you could bring in who would be THE guy without Chipper's assistance. With Chipper being such a great hitter (better than any HC in the game I'd reckon) and a guy who enjoys teaching, I don't see any other HC coming in and being the authority on hitting because Chipper's enthusiastic and willing to help, he's too good, and it's unequivocally his team.

Slash
06-01-2009, 12:33 PM
I've never been that impressed with Pendleton as a coach. And I sure have no idea why people keep pushing him for manager after Cox leaves.

nps6724
06-01-2009, 12:48 PM
I've never been that impressed with Pendleton as a coach. And I sure have no idea why people keep pushing him for manager after Cox leaves.

It's tough to decipher where a player's talent ends and a coach's ability begins. TP hasn't had a ton of offensive talent to work with over the years as most of our players since 2001 have been FAs who are either over-the-hill vets who are a couple years from retirement or very good hitters in their prime. So do you credit TP when one of those old vets does better than their previous few years? Do you hold it against TP when a good hitter struggles more than usual? It's a tough call but I've looked at our history under TP and MOST hitters perform on par or better than their career marks under TP. Whether it's luck or a fluke or an anomaly, the numbers show this to be true.

As for being a manager, his ability as a HC doesn't necessarily translate to managing. There are tons of coaches in all sports who are better focusing on one aspect of the game (hitting, pitching, bench coach, offensive coordinator or a positions coach in football, etc.) and there are others who can handle the whole picture better than one single part. Which is TP (hell, is he either)? I don't know. But being successful as a HC or PC shouldn't be a prerequisite to be a manager. Fredi Gonzalez went from 4 years as a 3rd base coach to a manager. Ozzie Guillen was a coach for the Expos and a 3rd base coach for Florida before getting a managing gig.

CrippledRam
06-02-2009, 08:58 PM
TP has to be fired

nps6724
06-02-2009, 09:01 PM
So when we fire TP and the hitters continue doing the same stupid things, who do we blame then? Will we finally blame the hitters for their performance? Players play, not coaches. At some point they must be blamed. You can tell them the right thing to do everyday but it's up to them to implement it.

uncblue2332
06-03-2009, 11:13 AM
So when we fire TP and the hitters continue doing the same stupid things, who do we blame then? Will we finally blame the hitters for their performance? Players play, not coaches. At some point they must be blamed. You can tell them the right thing to do everyday but it's up to them to implement it.

I guess since all the players play and the coaches coach we shouldnt have any coaches, just let the players play....obviously there is blame to be put on TP's back and I believe he should have more than enough blame to fire his a$s.

nps6724
06-03-2009, 11:16 AM
So who is responsible for MOST of our hitters performing equal to or better than their career averages? Can ANY of you wanting TP to be fired address this? I didn't think so.

uncblue2332
06-03-2009, 12:43 PM
So who is responsible for MOST of our hitters performing equal to or better than their career averages? Can ANY of you wanting TP to be fired address this? I didn't think so.

so since at least 1 or 2 players on each team always has a breakout or career year all the HC in MLB are great. No that argument is terrible it has factors as to who the batter is batting around, position in batting order, age, offseason workouts,etc. There are so many factors and HC is probably at the bottom of the list. I guess since chipper had a career high .364 avg last year thanks to his hurting shoulder so he couldnt swing but for singles we should hire chippers shoulder as our HC, you know since it was a career year and all???

nps6724
06-03-2009, 12:45 PM
so since at least 1 or 2 players on each team always has a breakout or career year all the HC in MLB are great. No that argument is terrible it has factors as to who the batter is batting around, position in batting order, age, offseason workouts,etc. There are so many factors and HC is probably at the bottom of the list. I guess since chipper had a career high .364 avg last year thanks to his hurting shoulder so he couldnt swing but for singles we should hire chippers shoulder as our HC, you know since it was a career year and all???

Except it's not 1 or 2 players. It's everyone but KJ, Schafer, Prado, and Francoeur and KJ is coming around and Schafer is a rookie rushed to the majors.

Look at every year since 2001. You will see over 80% of our hitters perform at or better than their career numbers. Jeff is the exception, not the rule.

uncblue2332
06-03-2009, 01:02 PM
Except it's not 1 or 2 players. It's everyone but KJ, Schafer, Prado, and Francoeur and KJ is coming around and Schafer is a rookie rushed to the majors.

Look at every year since 2001. You will see over 80% of our hitters perform at or better than their career numbers. Jeff is the exception, not the rule.

my point is every team has that and its not the Hitting coach its 20 other things first. Its not like its all the hc its very little to attribute that a career year is due to the HC is a terrible and stupid arguement

nps6724
06-03-2009, 01:22 PM
my point is every team has that and its not the Hitting coach its 20 other things first. Its not like its all the hc its very little to attribute that a career year is due to the HC is a terrible and stupid arguement

I never said it was all about the HC. And if there are 20 other things before HC, then why this statement:


I believe he should have more than enough blame to fire his a$s.

Judging by these two statements, you apparently feel all our hitters have 20 things going right for them and TP is the one who is messing up.

Your point still makes zero sense because in 7+ years as our HC, less than 20% of our hitters have underperformed. That's an astounding number. So are you blaming TP for those failures without giving him any credit for the 80% of success?

If HC is essentially negligible like you are saying, then there are no grounds to fire TP. If you are wrong and HC isn't negligible, then there are no grounds to fire TP. You have no leg on which to stand. There's just no evidence to show TP is the problem.

We came into this year knowing we had a poor offense and lo and behold it is. Why is this a surprise to anyone? We have a broken-down vet and a journeyman platoon player in LF, a 22-year old rookie who played half a season at AA and none at AAA in CF, a lost cause who made the same jump in RF, a 3B who can still hit but is injured often, a SS who hits well but doesn't have a lot of pop, a 2B who is the streakiest player alive, a 1B who hits for a decent average but no pop, and a catcher who is one of the 2 best hitters at his position. That's not a recipe for runs.

uncblue2332
06-03-2009, 03:09 PM
I never said it was all about the HC. And if there are 20 other things before HC, then why this statement:



Judging by these two statements, you apparently feel all our hitters have 20 things going right for them and TP is the one who is messing up.

Your point still makes zero sense because in 7+ years as our HC, less than 20% of our hitters have underperformed. That's an astounding number. So are you blaming TP for those failures without giving him any credit for the 80% of success?

If HC is essentially negligible like you are saying, then there are no grounds to fire TP. If you are wrong and HC isn't negligible, then there are no grounds to fire TP. You have no leg on which to stand. There's just no evidence to show TP is the problem.

We came into this year knowing we had a poor offense and lo and behold it is. Why is this a surprise to anyone? We have a broken-down vet and a journeyman platoon player in LF, a 22-year old rookie who played half a season at AA and none at AAA in CF, a lost cause who made the same jump in RF, a 3B who can still hit but is injured often, a SS who hits well but doesn't have a lot of pop, a 2B who is the streakiest player alive, a 1B who hits for a decent average but no pop, and a catcher who is one of the 2 best hitters at his position. That's not a recipe for runs.

We all knew about our offense but what im saying is career years are different from regular years because everything is going right for you. In any regular year if a hitter is in a slump he should be able to work with the HC and get through it. Unfortunately our HC isnt that good and I believe it is time to get rid of him. I dont know why you would hire a career .270 hitter as your HC anyway but its been done so now is time to fix it.

nps6724
06-03-2009, 03:19 PM
We all knew about our offense but what im saying is career years are different from regular years because everything is going right for you. In any regular year if a hitter is in a slump he should be able to work with the HC and get through it. Unfortunately our HC isnt that good and I believe it is time to get rid of him. I dont know why you would hire a career .270 hitter as your HC anyway but its been done so now is time to fix it.

So we just so happen to always have guys having career years with us and not anywhere else? There's no common age, ethnicity, hitter-type, position, or body shape to all the players we've had since 2001 that have had career years. There's only 2 common things between them: the manager, the HC, and the fact they are all males. Gee, I wonder which of those three would have the most effect on hitters. :rolleyes: It must be the FO. They're just great at knowing guys who are about to have a career year and we sign them up. They probably do it because TP is so bad at his job and it's the only way to justify keeping him.

/sarcasmoff

Forget the career years guys have had (of which there are a bunch). Look at their NORMAL years. Over 80% of hitters under TP perform equal or better than their normal marks. Let me repeat that since you don't get it. Over 80% of hitters under TP perform equal or better than their normal marks. One more time with feeling.

Over 80% of hitters under TP perform equal or better than their normal marks.

Is this that hard a concept to grasp? We have a HC who guys play well under. If they're a lifetime .250/.350/.450 guy, he is extremely likely to be that or better under TP. Few guys do worse under TP than they do elsewhere.

It's obvious you haven't actually looked at any of the numbers, otherwise you would see it. I don't know if TP is good as a HC or not, but I know for a fact most hitters under him stay the course or improve. And many of them regress when they leave. So what does that tell you? If you go to O'Charley's and get average service from everyone but Megan and with Megan you always get great service, who do you want waiting on your table next time?

uncblue2332
06-03-2009, 03:23 PM
Where the hell are you getting the 80% figure from cause im calling bs Link??? and who the f^ck is Megan and O'Charleys has quite possibly the worst food ever.

At the heart of the problem is Terry Pendleton. The Braves' best hitters, Brian McCann and Chipper Jones, consult their fathers when struggling at the plate. Even Francoeur consulted Texas Rangers hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo during the offseason. It seems as if the teams best hitters have little confidence in Pendleton, and rightfully so.

What exactly has Pendleton done to convince Braves fans that his philosophy is working. Andruw Jones saw his production wane throughout his final years with the organization, only to improve once uniting himself with the aforementioned Jaramillo. Francoeur hasn't been able to fix his woes at the plate either.

Pendleton's nonchalant attitude is troubling considering the struggles of many of the team's players. As many of the Braves continue to struggle at the plate, many fans will wonder when things will be turned around. With Andruw, it didn't happen with the Braves. With Francoeur, its been nearly two years.

There has been talk that the Braves and Francoeur may part ways. In order for the team to take the next step, the Braves' offense must improve. Little improvement has been made under Terry Pendleton. It's time the Braves turned the page and got a new hitting coach.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/183855-its-time-to-draw-the-curtain-on-pendleton

nps6724
06-03-2009, 03:31 PM
I looked it up myself. I went to baseball-reference.com and went through each Braves team from 2001 to 2008 and looked at every player on our teams who A) played in the majors for more than 1 year (got to have a baseline to compare to) and B) had enough ABs for their numbers to matter (3 ABs doesn't tell you anything). I then compared their Atlanta numbers to their career numbers. The overwhelming majority did as well or better with TP than before or after without him. And there was a wide range of players: wide-eyed rookies, guys in their primes, and broken-down vets were all accounted for. If you want to offer up some contrary evidence, be my guest. Though I doubt you will.

Apparently you've never heard of or seen an analogy, which actually makes sense now that I think about it.

uncblue2332
06-03-2009, 03:40 PM
I looked it up myself. I went to baseball-reference.com and went through each Braves team from 2001 to 2008 and looked at every player on our teams who A) played in the majors for more than 1 year (got to have a baseline to compare to) and B) had enough ABs for their numbers to matter (3 ABs doesn't tell you anything). I then compared their Atlanta numbers to their career numbers. The overwhelming majority did as well or better with TP than before or after without him. And there was a wide range of players: wide-eyed rookies, guys in their primes, and broken-down vets were all accounted for. If you want to offer up some contrary evidence, be my guest. Though I doubt you will.

Apparently you've never heard of or seen an analogy, which actually makes sense now that I think about it.

do you have anything to say about the article posted above????? Also so far from 2001-2008 Marcus Giles, Javy Lopez, Ryan Langerhans (even though he hadnt gotten half the abs since he left atl), furcal, robert fick, jd drew(contract year and was actually healthy for once), LaRoche, matt diaz (never got abs until ATL). Out of 7 years he has this not 80%

nps6724
06-03-2009, 03:47 PM
So you use a BLEACHER REPORT article and expect me to take it seriously? ANYONE can write an article on there. It talks about the OF like they're all Albert Pujols clones who are struggling due to TP. No, they're struggling due to age (GA, Schafer), being rushed to the majors (Schafer, Francoeur), and being stubborn (Francoeur). We came into the league with a weak offense and that's what we have. How is that TP's fault? You can only work with what you have.

FYI, Francoeur went outside the organization and got worse. YAY~!

I said I looked at EVERY hitter, not a handful. Every hitter who came in here.

Braves_Fan_RSD
06-03-2009, 04:48 PM
Where the hell are you getting the 80% figure from cause im calling bs Link??? and who the f^ck is Megan and O'Charleys has quite possibly the worst food ever.

Ok dude #1 knowing who Megan is and the fact that O' Charley's has the worst food ever has NO bearing on this argument and once again it shows how you use nothing but your opinion to back up your point. And by the way the sarcasm you try to portray only makes you look like an ignorant @$$ maybe when you grow up and stop all this immature bantering your posts could be taken more seriously.

To the 80% notion here are some stats:

Kelly Johnson - improved numbers every season from 2005-2008 and his major league numbers mirror his minor league numbers.

Yunel Escobar - Has remained constant between 2007 and 2009 and his Major league numbers have surpassed his minor league numbers in EVERY category.

Chipper Jones - Before TP (.303/.394/.534/.928)
During TP (.317/.427/.579/1.006)
I would say ther was some improvement there as well.

Brian McCann - Getting better every year crushing minor league numbers best hitting catcher in National League.

Matt Diaz - Before TP (.252/.303/.394/.697)
During TP (.318/.347/.440/.787)

Andruw Jones had four of his best five seasons under TP and Andruws thick headedness start his decline not TP He then went to the Rangers with a willingness to change.

The constants in our line up since TP has been here minus Jeff Francoeur have all gotten better under him.


At the heart of the problem is Terry Pendleton. The Braves' best hitters, Brian McCann and Chipper Jones, consult their fathers when struggling at the plate. Even Francoeur consulted Texas Rangers hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo during the offseason. It seems as if the teams best hitters have little confidence in Pendleton, and rightfully so.

Ok first off you still have no proof the heart of the problem is Pendleton its just an outrageous claim. Number 2 WHO DOESNT CONSULT THEIR FATHER when they are having an issue most fathers teach you your swing know how it works and have seen it everyday of your life really need a better argument there. Number 3 Rudy Jaramillio is a hitting coach GOD!!!!! if im struggling and I have a chance to work with the BEST IN THE BUSINESS do you think im going to turn it down, I'd be dumb as hell.


What exactly has Pendleton done to convince Braves fans that his philosophy is working. Andruw Jones saw his production wane throughout his final years with the organization, only to improve once uniting himself with the aforementioned Jaramillo. Francoeur hasn't been able to fix his woes at the plate either.


Pendleton's nonchalant attitude is troubling considering the struggles of many of the team's players. As many of the Braves continue to struggle at the plate, many fans will wonder when things will be turned around. With Andruw, it didn't happen with the Braves. With Francoeur, its been nearly two years.

His nonchalant attitude???????? Name a firey hitting coach, seriously dude lmaoooooo. And once again Andruw was great under TP until he wanted to hit 80 HRs.


There has been talk that the Braves and Francoeur may part ways. In order for the team to take the next step, the Braves' offense must improve. Little improvement has been made under Terry Pendleton. It's time the Braves turned the page and got a new hitting coach.
Little improvement???? look above dude

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/183855-its-time-to-draw-the-curtain-on-pendleton[/QUOTE]

This is your source for getting rid of TP??????????? Guess who writes for bleacher report- um FANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no one with inside information just regular fans who want to share their prospective. In fact im signed up to write for them even though I never have. Terrible source use a more credible one next time.

rtgthree
06-03-2009, 07:56 PM
so since at least 1 or 2 players on each team always has a breakout or career year all the HC in MLB are great.

And at least one or two players on each team always have down seasons. Your point?


Its not like its all the hc its very little to attribute that a career year is due to the HC is a terrible and stupid arguement

So you don't attribute career years to the hitting coach, but you do attribute BAD years to the hitting coach? That's what we call "inconsistent."

Personally, I attribute performance to the player, NOT the coach. And if no one in the organization is complaining, then neither am I. If they fire him, fine. If they don't, fine. But the point is that there's no real evidence to condemn Mr. Pendleton. (For full disclosure, neither is there evidence to glorify him.)