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Coach100
05-29-2009, 12:17 AM
We have talked about all of this, but I want some ideas on a timeline in terms of changes.

The 6-7-8 hitters have been miserable all month (combining for a sub .200 AVG total). 2 of those hitters are almost always starting OFs.

Whomever it may be (Frenchy, Norton, Schafer, LF, etc) and no matter who is added (trade or call-up) I want to bellieve change is on the way.

So what is your predicted time table? I think FW waits till the end of this series with ARI. That should get Esco back, which helps some. I think it also allows a call-up to join the club in ATL. It also gives them an off-day to make the moves.

I would like to see Norton DFA and Frenchy traded for anything. Call-up Canizares and Barton. I think Norton can go immediately after the series; Frenchy as soon as something can be worked out. Glavine should be ready after one more AAA start.

Something has to change soon to spark the team a little. The Braves are only 3.5 back and they need to show their players they are committed to this year. Barton can't do worse than Frenchy. It may buy the Braves a little time to find a bigger trade, even if that us just DeRosa or Guillen.

Thoughts on when change will be made?

nps6724
05-29-2009, 12:31 AM
We have little money and few prospects we are willing to trade. I'd rather sell this year personally. It's obvious we need A LOT more offense than we ever imagined and there's not much on the market. Our problem since 2005 has been we've tried to continue to compete for the division each year while sitting in 3rd/4th place. We haven't re-tooled; instead, we kept going with rentals. We really need to take 1 season and sell what we can and set ourselves up for the next few years instead of trying to survive year-to-year. We have several young guys (McCann, Esco, JJ, Schafer, Kotchman) who are already here and several more (Hanson, Heyward, Freeman, Gorkys) in the wings. We need to regroup instead of continuously spinning our wheels.

we also have several guys who could be key pieces for other teams down the stretch (Gonzo, Soriano, Vazquez, maybe even KK) and I bet we can get decent return on these guys. Maybe we can get lucky and snag one real good prospect out of the bunch.

lavell12
05-29-2009, 12:34 AM
We have four starters along with Hanson and Hudson so trading Morton, Reyes, or Medlen won't harm the Braves future so not trading them is BS.

nps6724
05-29-2009, 12:36 AM
Who would want Morton, Reyes, or Medlen enough to give us anything substantial?

Coach100
05-29-2009, 12:46 AM
I care less about the actual move and more about when the moves may come. Any thoughts there?

I have always said I could live with some re-building years, as long as it was done right. The Braves soaked their $$ into SP to compete. Teams will want the Braves to eat salary on guys like KK and JV, which they can't really do. I think KK may be the only one to go, since Hanson is ready, Glavine is almost back, and Medlen looks serviceable.

My feelings are more along the lines af seeing what someone else has. If Norton/Frenchy aren't helping, maybe BJones, Barton, or Canizares can. The organization will never know until they give them some sort of shot. Might as well give them that shot now with such crap production from these areas.

Coach100
05-29-2009, 12:48 AM
NPS, I think young arms that are/close to MLB ready have value. Medlen is showing some signs of life (only one bad inning last time out) A few more starts and he may show he is ready to be a 4/5 arm, which someone will want, especially at his age. And those players alone may not yield a large return, but mixed with someone else they can help bring back something worthwhile.

nps6724
05-29-2009, 12:51 AM
NPS, I think young arms that are/close to MLB ready have value. Medlen is showing some signs of life (only one bad inning last time out) A few more starts and he may show he is ready to be a 4/5 arm, which someone will want, especially at his age. And those players alone may not yield a large return, but mixed with someone else they can help bring back something worthwhile.

The problem is we've given all 3 major-league starts and all 3 have been shelled. Even if other teams think they will improve, at the negotiating table all 3 guys' ML track record will lower their value. Medlen certainly had more value before we called him up. I'm guessing Jo-Jo has the value of half a corn-on-the-cob at this point. None of them have helped their value at all in the majors by pitching so poorly. We may be able to combine them with someone else, but I still don't see us getting anyone worthwhile. I'm hoping we throw as much against the wall and see what sticks.

BRAVE KID
05-29-2009, 12:52 AM
tell you what, and this is my opinion, if the braves lose this series or just get swept..then I believe a move or moves will be made after this series. If they win or split the series, nothing is going to happen

ATLKoos16
05-29-2009, 01:04 AM
i've seen all these rumors of frenchy being scouted by the red sox. if we could get some prospect from them and then maybe spin that around witha couple of our prospects for a bat, i think that would be awsome. I also want to see norton gone too

AustinTheGreat
05-29-2009, 01:08 AM
like my thread i made a couple weeks ago. This is the worst braves team i have seen in my life. I can say with confidence in Late May that this team has no chance to get in the playoffs. If it was odds makers on PTI , i would give it a 0%. Lineup is not Pro worthy. GA is done. Diaz is not a starter. Schafer isnt ready. Frenchy is still struggling.

lavell12
05-29-2009, 01:23 AM
tell you what, and this is my opinion, if the braves lose this series or just get swept..then I believe a move or moves will be made after this series. If they win or split the series, nothing is going to happen

If thats the case than I hope we lose the series, I'd take one or two losses now to fix the team in the long run. We need impact players not just marginal improvements or rookies.

Jon93405
05-29-2009, 03:27 AM
It's time to get Josh Willingham. He's right handed, he has power, he plays OF, and when Elijah Dukes comes back in a couple of weeks, he'll be out of a job again.

In the month of April, Willingham only got 35 AB's, and hit .143/.302/.257.

So far in May, because of the Dukes injury, he's gotten 66 AB's and hit .273/.385/.576.

He got regular playing time, and started producing. He's only a .263 career hitter, but he has a .361 OBP, so he will get on base and his .471 career SLG is a heck of a lot better than we're getting.

His 162 game average is 545 AB's, .263 25HR 82RBI.

He would make a nice 5th hitter protecting McCann. When Yunel returns that lineup could be pretty decent, and with the pitching staff, we just need decent for now, to keep our heads above water.

Yunel
Kotchman
Chipper
McCann
Willingham
GA/Diaz
KJ
Barton

Jon93405
05-29-2009, 03:37 AM
Another thing I just noticed about Willingham, apparently he can catch.

He's caught 70 innings at the MLB level. Actually starting 7 games so these aren't fluke emergency situations. He started 2 games as recently as 2006.

Not that we would intend to use him behind the plate, but he would be an overly qualified emergency catcher. What it would do, is essentially give us an extra power hitting right handed bat off the bench. With McCann starting, David Ross is our biggest long ball pinch hitting threat, but it's hard to use him in a 2 on 2 out pinch hitting situation in the 6th or 7th inning, since we'd be using up our only backup catcher.

If Willingham was in LF, Bobby could use Ross to pinch hit, knowing if McCann did have to come out, he could slide Josh behind the plate, who could handle the position for the rest of the game better than say Matt Diaz.

nps6724
05-29-2009, 07:40 AM
Yeah, Willingham came up as a catcher so he'd be a much better emergency one than Diaz.

hootdog
05-29-2009, 09:41 AM
Frency must be the first to go! If the Braves had the bases loaded with one out, 9th inning ,down by a run. If he comes to the plate,9 out of 10 times we lose the game!

atl_braves_fan
05-29-2009, 10:53 AM
Willingham and Luke Scott. Both would be relatively cheap and would give the Braves a lineup with 20+ HR power for spots 3-7 (Chipper, Willingham, McCann, Scott, KJ). That is what you need if you don't have an impact bat at clean-up ... get it done FW

rtgthree
05-29-2009, 10:58 AM
We have little money and few prospects we are willing to trade. I'd rather sell this year personally.

Frankly, that's not a bad idea at all. It was kicked around the board this winter some even. We have several pieces that will have value to contending teams. The problem is that the front office needs to make that decision now. If they want to go for it, then they need to make a move immediately to get some offensive help. As in, they need some new blood in the next few days. By keeping things the way they are, we are implicitly conceding the season. However, if we are conceding the season, then they need to get Schafer back to AAA so you're not using his service time. They are in limbo right now, not optimized to win and not optimized to build for the future. I don't care so much what they choose to do as that they make a damn decision.


we also have several guys who could be key pieces for other teams down the stretch (Gonzo, Soriano, Vazquez, maybe even KK) and I bet we can get decent return on these guys. Maybe we can get lucky and snag one real good prospect out of the bunch.

I would not trade Vazquez or Kawakami right now, and here's why: the Braves can easily be ready to contend again in 2010. And not just by rentals and mediocrity; the next wave of talent is going to start hitting next year. However, losing two of four starting pitchers, including arguably our best starter, is really going to hurt our 2010 contention bid. Keep Vazquez and Kawakami for the rest of the season, while we audition other pitchers: what does Huddy look like? Can Medlen get his confidence? Can Morton give us anything? Then, come the winter, if no one gets hurt and Hudson is back strong and two or more of the kids step up, feel free to trade Javy and/or Kenshin. But for the sake of safety, don't move them at the deadline unless somebody comes up with a killer offer.

Move Mike Gonzalez, Rafael Soriano, Jeff Francoeur, Garret Anderson, and Greg Norton for whatever we can get (in some cases that will mean just releasing the player). The Orioles are the model of rebuilding right now, if you ask me: keep the top prospects in the minors until they are absolutely, unequivocally, totally ready, and audition all the lesser prospects to see if any of them can stick while the games don't matter. That's exactly what the Braves should do. Leave Schafer and Hanson down to keep developing, throw the Parrs, Reyeses, Mortons, Luis Valdezes, Blancos, Bartons and Brandon Joneses of the world into the fire to see what they can do. Discard the ones that don't perform, keep the ones that do. Couple those "discoveries" with a core of Lowe, Vazquez, Jurrjens, Chipper, McCann, KJ and Yunel, and a youth movement including Schafer, Gorkys Hernandez, Tommy Hanson and Jason Heyward, and you could have yourself one hell of a team as soon as next year.

nps6724
05-29-2009, 11:01 AM
I like your thoughts here rtg, but do you really think Gorkys and Heyward will be ready next year? I don't want to rush them after seeing how it has hurt Francoeur and Schafer so much.

uncblue2332
05-29-2009, 11:26 AM
yea heyward at least needs another full year in the minors...by the end of the year he will be at AA but I dont want to rush him...Gorkys is at AA right now and unless he is traded he will be in AAA all of next year with maybe the exception of a september call up. I like Heyward to come in in June of 2011 and he would avoid rushing to the majors and super two status that way. Medlen needs to be our closer next year and our lineup next year if we conceed the season could be

1. D.Lowe
2. Huddy
3. JJ
4. Javy
5. Hanson

Spot Starters: Parr, Morton, Campy, Kawakami

Bullpen
Closer: Medlen
Setup: Jo-Jo
Moylan
carlyle
o'flaherty

1. Schafer CF
2. Yunel SS
3. Chip 3B
4. FA or Trade LF
5. B-Mac C
6. Kotch 1B
7. Kelly 2B
8. French or B.Jones RF

atl_braves_fan
05-29-2009, 11:28 AM
I agree with most of your thoughts rtg, and that is why I don't think that the Braves should go out and try to get a star. However, if you can get a couple of people without giving up a lot, why not do it? The Mets and Phillies don't exactly look like juggernauts this year and maybe the Braves could sneak into the playoffs without mortgaging the future. If that doesn't work, you could still make most of the moves you mentioned in the offseason.

I can't imagine a player like Luke Scott (I apologize for mentioning him over and over - I don't necessarily mean only him, just someone like him and I can't think of a better example right now) would take more than Morton and a couple of pieces and Willingham would take even less. Get both of them to put with the solid core that you mentioned and maybe you sneak into the playoffs this year.

Then, if Heyward and/or Gorkys is not ready next season, at least you have a decent ML caliber outfield under control. If they are ready, then you have some pieces that you can move to replenish what you gave up this season. That is the thing about guys like Scott and Willingham ... they aren't worth much, but there will always be someone that will give you a 4-5 starter or a quality BP arm for them next year if the Braves no longer need them. If that is all you are giving up, it seems like all reward and very little risk.

rtgthree
05-29-2009, 01:53 PM
I like your thoughts here rtg, but do you really think Gorkys and Heyward will be ready next year? I don't want to rush them after seeing how it has hurt Francoeur and Schafer so much.

I think there is a decent chance that both Gorkys and Heyward will be ready next year. This may seem obvious, but it's important to realize that prospects mature at different rates. It was easy to look at Francoeur and realize that he still had a lot of plate discipline to learn before he was ready. It was easy to look at Schafer before the season and see that he still struck out too much, and that he couldn't hit left-handed pitching (I spent the better part of spring training on this board trying to say that he wasn't ready). Young players can IMPROVE at the major-league level; what they often struggle to do is learn new skills. Both Schafer and Frenchy have/had some fundamental work left to do, and that has to be done in the minors.

In Heyward's case, to start...well, let's just say there are some prospects that can't be rushed (see Upton, Justin; and Bruce, Jay). Some of these guys are just that talented. In my opinion, Jason Heyward could be the best hitter in our outfield RIGHT NOW. There are no real flaws in his game...he just needs experience to become a superstar, and he can get experience in the Show. Now I don't think we should call him up now for the sake of service time, but I think he could be ready now. From what I can see, he has little left to learn. A promotion to AA should be in short order, and he's the sort of prospect that can skip AAA altogether.

As for Gorkys, his game will always be speed and defense. We'll have to watch his plate discipline as the year goes on, because that will be important for a slap hitter like him, but guys with such an unbelievable tool as his speed tend to make it more easily in the bigs (see Furcal, Rafael). I mean Gorkys is just as fast in the MLB as he is in the Southern League, and that's where his value is going to come from. Given a full year to finish developing at Mississippi, I think he very well COULD be ready for the beginning of 2010. We'll have to evaluate more later on, but it's not outside the realm of possibility...remember that he's getting the full season at Double-A that Schafer lost due to his suspension, and IMO Schafer's suspension is what did him in as far as being ready for Opening Day '09.


I agree with most of your thoughts rtg, and that is why I don't think that the Braves should go out and try to get a star. However, if you can get a couple of people without giving up a lot, why not do it?

I'm not totally opposed to that, but here's the problem. First, does anyone really see Frank Wren making not one but TWO significant trades to bring in new outfielders? The Braves are generally pretty conservative, and I see them making one trade (for a Luke Scott/Josh Willingham type) and then calling it an outfield. That could be a disaster, because then you've given up future pieces without actually even helping the "now." Second, the price in prospects for outfielders is going to stay fairly high because of the Braves' precarious financial situation. I think we can add about $3-4 million in payroll, which buys you one cheap outfielder but not two, and only about a third the cost of a more expensive buy like Holliday or Jermaine Dye.

I think the Braves are in a bad spot with respect to fixing their outfield situation, and if you try to patch the OF, then you lose the opportunity to get good prospects for guys like Soriano and Gonzalez.

nps6724
05-29-2009, 02:12 PM
I think there is a decent chance that both Gorkys and Heyward will be ready next year. This may seem obvious, but it's important to realize that prospects mature at different rates. It was easy to look at Francoeur and realize that he still had a lot of plate discipline to learn before he was ready. It was easy to look at Schafer before the season and see that he still struck out too much, and that he couldn't hit left-handed pitching (I spent the better part of spring training on this board trying to say that he wasn't ready). Young players can IMPROVE at the major-league level; what they often struggle to do is learn new skills. Both Schafer and Frenchy have/had some fundamental work left to do, and that has to be done in the minors.

In Heyward's case, to start...well, let's just say there are some prospects that can't be rushed (see Upton, Justin; and Bruce, Jay). Some of these guys are just that talented. In my opinion, Jason Heyward could be the best hitter in our outfield RIGHT NOW. There are no real flaws in his game...he just needs experience to become a superstar, and he can get experience in the Show. Now I don't think we should call him up now for the sake of service time, but I think he could be ready now. From what I can see, he has little left to learn. A promotion to AA should be in short order, and he's the sort of prospect that can skip AAA altogether.

As for Gorkys, his game will always be speed and defense. We'll have to watch his plate discipline as the year goes on, because that will be important for a slap hitter like him, but guys with such an unbelievable tool as his speed tend to make it more easily in the bigs (see Furcal, Rafael). I mean Gorkys is just as fast in the MLB as he is in the Southern League, and that's where his value is going to come from. Given a full year to finish developing at Mississippi, I think he very well COULD be ready for the beginning of 2010. We'll have to evaluate more later on, but it's not outside the realm of possibility...remember that he's getting the full season at Double-A that Schafer lost due to his suspension, and IMO Schafer's suspension is what did him in as far as being ready for Opening Day '09.

Dammit rtg, now you got me excited and expecting these guys next year. If Heyward could make a Pujols-like jump (109 games in A, 21 games in A+, 3 games in AAA in 2000, in the majors 2001) and be successful, that would be fantastic. Can you imagine Chipper-Heyward-McCann all together in the lineup?!

cntrft76
05-29-2009, 02:19 PM
According to MLBTR things could get worse:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/05/free-agent-matchmaker-braves-need-an-of.html

I highly doubt any of this at all but can you imagine!

atl_braves_fan
05-29-2009, 02:34 PM
I'm not totally opposed to that, but here's the problem. First, does anyone really see Frank Wren making not one but TWO significant trades to bring in new outfielders? The Braves are generally pretty conservative, and I see them making one trade (for a Luke Scott/Josh Willingham type) and then calling it an outfield. That could be a disaster, because then you've given up future pieces without actually even helping the "now." Second, the price in prospects for outfielders is going to stay fairly high because of the Braves' precarious financial situation. I think we can add about $3-4 million in payroll, which buys you one cheap outfielder but not two, and only about a third the cost of a more expensive buy like Holliday or Jermaine Dye.

I think the Braves are in a bad spot with respect to fixing their outfield situation, and if you try to patch the OF, then you lose the opportunity to get good prospects for guys like Soriano and Gonzalez.

If they can get rid of Frenchy (which would be a prerequisite to the other deals I proposed), they could afford a couple of $3-4 million players.

rtgthree
05-29-2009, 03:04 PM
If they can get rid of Frenchy (which would be a prerequisite to the other deals I proposed), they could afford a couple of $3-4 million players.

I don't know that the Braves will be able to trade Francoeur without picking up at least part of the $3.375 million owed to him. If they wind up having to release Frenchy, they'll still owe him all but $400,000 of his salary. The point remains: the Braves are not in a favorable financial position right now, and pretty much any way you cut it, they are going to have to give up extra prospects to avoid taking on cost.

brave/cuban
05-29-2009, 06:08 PM
http://capitolavenueclub.com/?p=236
interesting.

brave/cuban
05-29-2009, 06:09 PM
http://www.whensidslid.com/?p=434
interesting.

Jon93405
05-29-2009, 06:56 PM
"Nick Johnson, or (Josh) Willingham, or (Austin) Kearns, anyone on our roster, if we can make a good baseball trade and improve ourselves, not only for our present but also for our future -- a player that can impact us -- we have to make those kinds of trades," Rizzo told Midweek Insider Tuesday

This is the Nats GM.

The Nats actually don't seem to have a need for pitching prospects like Jo-Jo, Parr or Morton. They have a rotation of 5 guys 25 years old or younger with Colin Balester, Marco Estrada and J.D. Martin in AAA.

However their bullpen is old and just terrible. It's very hard to give young starters confidence when their bullpen is blowing leads left and right. Our AAA team happens to have a bunch of relievers having great seasons for us.

Would the Nationals part ways with Willingham for 3 solid bullpen guys?

What about:

Luis Valdez or Boone Logan

and

Manny Acosta or Jorge Campillo

and

Jerome Gamble, Vladimir Nunez or Juan Perez

They get to choose one young "prospect" arm with a good shot at being a solid setup man or even a closer, one guy from our active roster who has proven he can get out big league hitters and still have low service time, and an older reliever in AAA who probably deserves a shot, (or in Nunez's case another shot) at MLB and wouldn't be any worse than Kip Wells, Julian Tavarez or Joe Beimel.

Just a thought.

rtgthree
05-29-2009, 07:13 PM
^^^They would pass on that. I don't think any of those people you named are what you would call "solid bullpen guys." That third group is total garbage...zero trade value. You can pick that caliber of reliever up of the minor-league free agent heap. Acosta, Valdez and Logan have no track record of success in the majors and all have control issues that threaten to end their big-league careers before they even start.

Rebuilding teams ALWAYS have a need for pitching prospects. Balester, Estrada and Martin are all at Triple-A for a struggling team for a reason...none of them are major-league caliber starters. Balester might be somebody's #5 starter some day, but that trio is essentially Quad-A fodder. If you want Willingham (or anybody worthwhile, for that matter), you're going to have to give up more than a grab bag of your failed relief pitchers. You'll have to be ready to offer something with real value.

rtgthree
05-29-2009, 07:23 PM
http://capitolavenueclub.com/?p=236
interesting.

Uh, this is pretty ridiculous, frankly. He wants to first trade Jeff Francoeur and two other random worthless organizational pieces to Kansas City for second baseman Alberto Callaspo. Dayton Moore may like Frenchy, but he doesn't like him enough to trade his productive starting second baseman, for whom Willie Friggin' Bloomquist is the only backup on the roster.

Then he proposes to flip Jurrjens or Hanson, Kelly Johnson, and Barbaro Canizares to the White Sox for Carlos Quentin. Then, to "sort out some blockage problems," he also proposes to toss in Gorkys Hernandez from our end and hotshot Cuban import Dayan Viciedo from their end. Jeez. For one thing, it would just never happen. For another thing, as good as Carlos Quentin may be, he's injury-prone and just not worth that price in trade. Canizares is as good as worthless on the trade market, but flipping four years of Jurrjens or six of Hanson plus two years of Johnson for three years of Quentin makes zero sense to me.

uncblue2332
05-29-2009, 07:30 PM
Uh, this is pretty ridiculous, frankly. He wants to first trade Jeff Francoeur and two other random worthless organizational pieces to Kansas City for second baseman Alberto Callaspo. Dayton Moore may like Frenchy, but he doesn't like him enough to trade his productive starting second baseman, for whom Willie Friggin' Bloomquist is the only backup on the roster.

Then he proposes to flip Jurrjens or Hanson, Kelly Johnson, and Barbaro Canizares to the White Sox for Carlos Quentin. Then, to "sort out some blockage problems," he also proposes to toss in Gorkys Hernandez from our end and hotshot Cuban import Dayan Viciedo from their end. Jeez. For one thing, it would just never happen. For another thing, as good as Carlos Quentin may be, he's injury-prone and just not worth that price in trade. Canizares is as good as worthless on the trade market, but flipping four years of Jurrjens or six of Hanson plus two years of Johnson for three years of Quentin makes zero sense to me.

Couldnt have said it better my self sounds like someone who knows little to nothing about the braves. For one JJ and Hanson are not only untouchables but our future 1,2 for at least 4 years. Second why would we get a 2nd baseman when we have infante and prado to replace kelly if we move him, that is the one position we are completely solid at. Third, that is way, way, way too much for a 1 year wonder so far I would only offer that package for a dominant proven player like Albert Pujols. Hanson, Gorkys, KJ, Barbaro is a loaded package its ridiculous to give up all that. Third Carlos sucks on defense so if you are giving up that much at least get a player who can play both sides of the ball. Some of these writers really need to be fired.

Braves28Herbs7
05-29-2009, 07:36 PM
and the nationals will draft strasburg. god why couldnt someone else get that guy. he is gunna be such a stud

Jon93405
05-29-2009, 07:36 PM
You're right the third group is worthless. And it's not enough to get him.

I just think we can get Willingham without giving up any marquee prospects and even if we are out of the playoff hunt we can deal him at the deadline or use him as an outfielder next season.

He's always battled for playing time and would probably receive a big confidence boost coming to Atlanta knowing he would be starting every day and would receive standing ovations every time he homered, drove in a run, hit a bloop single, whatever.

AustinTheGreat
05-29-2009, 07:36 PM
i read that blog. It was ok. Francoer could land Collapse by himself in my opinion. ANd thats just a marginal upgrade. I hate KJ cuz his inconsistency but for some odd reason he ends up with homers in the teens and a ok stat line. COllapso will only give us average and runs and getting on base. Yes thats good. I would take him but...not sure i would trade just frenchy for him. He would be a nice leadoff.

rtgthree
05-30-2009, 11:32 AM
Some of these writers really need to be fired.

Well, seeing as he's not employed as a sports writer, it'd be hard for him to be fired. He's just a random blogger writing what he thinks, which explains why his idea doesn't make any sense.


Francoer could land Collapse by himself in my opinion. ANd thats just a marginal upgrade.

Riiiiight. First, it would be highway robbery if the Braves acquired Callaspo for Francoeur alone. Second, Callaspo would be more than just a "marginal upgrade" over Jeff Francoeur.