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View Full Version : Why does Kobe need to win a ring without Shaq to be an all time great?



hotpotato1092
05-28-2009, 07:19 PM
It's obvious to every intelligent NBA fan that Kobe Bryant's career accomplishments are belittled by tons of people because his three titles came with Shaq. My question is why does that matter? Why does it seem like people think his titles don't count because he had a dominant teammate?

Larry Bird won three titles, but had two hall of famers (Parish and Mchale) with him for each one, not to mention another borderline hall of famer (Denis Johnson) and another hall of famer (Bill Walton) there for some of them

Magic Johnson won five titles, but had Kareem (who is likely better than Shaq) with him for each one as well as guys like James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper and so on. Nobody ever belittles Magic for not winning one "by himself". Are we even sure Magic was the best player on his team?

Michael Jordan won six titles and is the standard to which all current players are measured against. But he had Scottie Pippen for each one, Scottie was a top 10 scorer and a top 10 defender during his day, a first ballot hall of famer in his own right and the founder of the "point forward" position. We all seem to forget that Michael had guys like Charles Oakley and Dennis Rodman on his team as well, and yet Kobe is vilified for winning with Shaq and... Robert Horry? Derek Fisher? No player on those Laker title teams other than Shaq and Kobe would have even been in the Bull's rotation during their title years.

My point is simple, NOBODY has ever won a title on their own, why is Kobe the only one who gets criticized for failing to do so? Why can't people appreciate that he has three titles, if you asked any NBA fan from 2003 on they might think he hasn't won a single one. It's just ridiculous. Maybe Kobe isn't Jordan, but he's an all time great who doesn't get the respect he deserves, even if he never wins a title "on his own".

JordansBulls
05-28-2009, 07:29 PM
It's obvious to every intelligent NBA fan that Kobe Bryant's career accomplishments are belittled by tons of people because his three titles came with Shaq. My question is why does that matter? Why does it seem like people think his titles don't count because he had a dominant teammate?

Larry Bird won three titles, but had two hall of famers (Parish and Mchale) with him for each one, not to mention another borderline hall of famer (Denis Johnson) and another hall of famer (Bill Walton) there for some of them

Magic Johnson won five titles, but had Kareem (who is likely better than Shaq) with him for each one as well as guys like James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper and so on. Nobody ever belittles Magic for not winning one "by himself". Are we even sure Magic was the best player on his team?

Michael Jordan won six titles and is the standard to which all current players are measured against. But he had Scottie Pippen for each one, Scottie was a top 10 scorer and a top 10 defender during his day, a first ballot hall of famer in his own right and the founder of the "point forward" position. We all seem to forget that Michael had guys like Charles Oakley and Dennis Rodman on his team as well, and yet Kobe is vilified for winning with Shaq and... Robert Horry? Derek Fisher? No player on those Laker title teams other than Shaq and Kobe would have even been in the Bull's rotation during their title years.

My point is simple, NOBODY has ever won a title on their own, why is Kobe the only one who gets criticized for failing to do so? Why can't people appreciate that he has three titles, if you asked any NBA fan from 2003 on they might think he hasn't won a single one. It's just ridiculous. Maybe Kobe isn't Jordan, but he's an all time great who doesn't get the respect he deserves, even if he never wins a title "on his own".

He is already a top 10-15 player all time. He doesn't need another one to prove he is. However to get into that group of players that have won multiple titles as the best on the team including multiple finals MVP's and season MVP's he needs to win some titles as the best on the team. And no it doesn't mean he has to win without Shaq, it means he just has to win as the best on the team. Like had it been Shaq from 2006 or something it would be clear that Kobe from that time 2006-2009 was better than 2006 Shaq. So if he won with him than that is fine.

blacknell
05-28-2009, 07:35 PM
he needs to win one because he wasn't consindered the best player on the team when they won those rings Shaq was. Also Kobe destroyed the team that won those rings so it basically is his responsibility to win another. Even though he has gasol

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 07:42 PM
In order for him to be amongst the the top ten players of all-time, he has to lead his team to another title as the main guy. If he can win multiple titles as the main guy, he would move even further up the list. It's no discredit to Kobe, as he's already amongst the top 10 to 15 players of all-time.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2009, 07:50 PM
It's obvious to every intelligent NBA fan that Kobe Bryant's career accomplishments are belittled by tons of people because his three titles came with Shaq. My question is why does that matter? Why does it seem like people think his titles don't count because he had a dominant teammate?

Larry Bird won three titles, but had two hall of famers (Parish and Mchale) with him for each one, not to mention another borderline hall of famer (Denis Johnson) and another hall of famer (Bill Walton) there for some of them

Magic Johnson won five titles, but had Kareem (who is likely better than Shaq) with him for each one as well as guys like James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper and so on. Nobody ever belittles Magic for not winning one "by himself". Are we even sure Magic was the best player on his team?

Michael Jordan won six titles and is the standard to which all current players are measured against. But he had Scottie Pippen for each one, Scottie was a top 10 scorer and a top 10 defender during his day, a first ballot hall of famer in his own right and the founder of the "point forward" position. We all seem to forget that Michael had guys like Charles Oakley and Dennis Rodman on his team as well, and yet Kobe is vilified for winning with Shaq and... Robert Horry? Derek Fisher? No player on those Laker title teams other than Shaq and Kobe would have even been in the Bull's rotation during their title years.

My point is simple, NOBODY has ever won a title on their own, why is Kobe the only one who gets criticized for failing to do so? Why can't people appreciate that he has three titles, if you asked any NBA fan from 2003 on they might think he hasn't won a single one. It's just ridiculous. Maybe Kobe isn't Jordan, but he's an all time great who doesn't get the respect he deserves, even if he never wins a title "on his own".

:clap:

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 07:50 PM
he needs to win one because he wasn't consindered the best player on the team when they won those rings Shaq was. Also Kobe destroyed the team that won those rings so it basically is his responsibility to win another. Even though he has gasol

I like the points you make. I also would like to add that Kobe doesn't have an NBA finals MVP. Shaq has 3 Jordan has 6. Shaq could have won a ring with Ray Allen as his partner or even Vince Carter. Carter and Shaq in their prime yes sir! Think about it Shaq and Penny Hardaway almost won 1 in their time in Orlando. they were too young, so they didn't. But they would have won 1 eventually! It was always about Shaq not Kobe. This is why I believe Kobe will never be as good as MJ no matter how often people try to lie to themselves. I know Jordan had Pippen but I ask you to look at the numbers Jordan's were always better than Kobe's by a lot. Jordan's numbers even better than LeBron. LeBron is better than Kobe because if you trade Kobe for LeBron The Lakers would have won 70 games and the Cavs would have won around 50.

Think of it this way the Cavs had the best record in the league even though LeBron had no help. Cavs minus LeBron, they win 25 games. Lakers minus Kobe, they win 40 games. LeBron is better than Kobe. MJ is better than LeBron. Which leads to Kobe having to win a ring w/out Shaq!

LeBron would love to have Gasol and Odom, at least Ariza by his side. And Bynum forget about it! Dang I might have gone off topic but I was trying to prove a point.

JordansBulls
05-28-2009, 07:53 PM
I like the points you make. I also would like to add that Kobe doesn't have an NBA finals MVP. Shaq has 3 Jordan has 6. Shaq could have won a ring with Ray Allen as his partner or even Vince Carter. Carter and Shaq in their prime yes sir! Think about it Shaq and Penny Hardaway almost won 1 in their time in Orlando. they were too young, so they didn't. But they would have won 1 eventually! It was always about Shaq not Kobe. This is why I believe Kobe will never be as good as MJ no matter how often people try to lie to themselves. I know Jordan had Pippen but I ask you to look at the numbers Jordan's were always better than Kobe's by a lot. Jordan's numbers even better than LeBron. LeBron is better than Kobe because if you trade Kobe for LeBron The Lakers would have won 70 games and the Cavs would have won around 50.

Think of it this way the Cavs had the best record in the league even though LeBron had no help. Cavs minus LeBron, they win 25 games. Lakers minus Kobe, they win 40 games. LeBron is better than Kobe. MJ is better than LeBron. Which leads to Kobe having to win a ring w/out Shaq!

LeBron would love to have Gasol and Odom, at least Ariza by his side. And Bynum forget about it! Dang I might have gone off topic but I was trying to prove a point.

Lebron had a win share of 19.6 this year which means he was responsible for about 20 wins. Take him off and the Cavs win 46 games technically.

And how did Lebron have no help? This is starting to get ridiculous. He had the best record in the league with a team that was top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency and had a guy on the team that made the allstar team as well, yet he has no help.
:rolleyes:

sp1derm00
05-28-2009, 07:54 PM
Well, Kobe is on an island by himself. There's the standard every other player in the league is held to, and then there's Kobe.

If there could be co-finals MVP's, they both deserved them. Why not? there could be co-all-star MVP's.

Kobe was already considered one of the best, if not the best player in the league in the championship years. Shaq benefitted more statistically than Kobe did from Shaq.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 07:55 PM
He doesn't have to win another title to be an all-time great but he does have to win one if he doesn't want to be remembered as the guy who needed Shaq. Shaq proved he didn't need Kobe when he won one with D-Wade

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 07:57 PM
I like the points you make. I also would like to add that Kobe doesn't have an NBA finals MVP. Shaq has 3 Jordan has 6. Shaq could have won a ring with Ray Allen as his partner or even Vince Carter. Carter and Shaq in their prime yes sir! Think about it Shaq and Penny Hardaway almost won 1 in their time in Orlando. they were too young, so they didn't. But they would have won 1 eventually! It was always about Shaq not Kobe. This is why I believe Kobe will never be as good as MJ no matter how often people try to lie to themselves. I know Jordan had Pippen but I ask you to look at the numbers Jordan's were always better than Kobe's by a lot. Jordan's numbers even better than LeBron. LeBron is better than Kobe because if you trade Kobe for LeBron The Lakers would have won 70 games and the Cavs would have won around 50.

Think of it this way the Cavs had the best record in the league even though LeBron had no help. Cavs minus LeBron, they win 25 games. Lakers minus Kobe, they win 40 games. LeBron is better than Kobe. MJ is better than LeBron. Which leads to Kobe having to win a ring w/out Shaq!

LeBron would love to have Gasol and Odom, at least Ariza by his side. And Bynum forget about it! Dang I might have gone off topic but I was trying to prove a point.

This is where you lose credibility. Something tells me you don't know the first thing about the triangle offense. It would turn Lebron more into a jump-shooter and the Laker team would have undoubtedly been worse, as it does not play to his strengths. If you want to cater to his strengths you run the risk of undermining what the rest of the Laker team took years to learn and perfect in the triple post offense. The only possible improvement would come from Phil Jackson being a far superior coach to Mike Brown.

JordansBulls
05-28-2009, 07:58 PM
Well, Kobe is on an island by himself. There's the standard every other player in the league is held to, and then there's Kobe.

If there could be co-finals MVP's, they both deserved them. Why not? there could be co-all-star MVP's.

Kobe was already considered one of the best, if not the best player in the league in the championship years. Shaq benefitted more statistically than Kobe did from Shaq.


This is part of the reason why Kobe doesn't get his credit because of post and comments like this. Sure he was as good as Shaq in some series, but for overall impact and for the overall playoffs, the years that the Lakers won Shaq was always the best. Shaq not only won all the finals MVP's but he had historic finals as well. Shaq also finished 1st, 3rd, 3rd in MVP voting from 2000-2002 while Kobe finished 12th, 9th and 5th those years. Sure MVP voting isn't all be all but it means a lot especially when you have a guy who was better on the team those years.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2009, 07:59 PM
He is already a top 10-15 player all time. He doesn't need another one to prove he is. However to get into that group of players that have won multiple titles as the best on the team including multiple finals MVP's and season MVP's he needs to win some titles as the best on the team. And no it doesn't mean he has to win without Shaq, it means he just has to win as the best on the team. Like had it been Shaq from 2006 or something it would be clear that Kobe from that time 2006-2009 was better than 2006 Shaq. So if he won with him than that is fine.

JB, quick question. I notice that you have said in the past, that Kareem is the only player that has the resume to compete with MJ for "best ever". But out of his five titles, its arguable that he was never the best player on the team. He had the Big O and Magic on his team. Do you think Kareem needs to come back and win a ring as the best player on the team so that he can be in the top 3 ever?

Or do you think he was the best player on the Lakers, and maybe Magic needs to come out of retirement to have a team built around him to show that he is a top 5 NBA player?

My point is, sometimes, when two great players are on the same team, and they win a title, later on in the future, they are both remembered for winning championships. Not for who was the best. Oscar and Kareem both are known for winning one championship in Milwaukee. Both Kareem and Magic are credited with winning 5 rings with the Lakers. Nobody has ever said, "well, Magic never did it without Kareem, so if he wants to be an all time great, he will have to win a ring without him." Or vice versa.

I just will never understand people acting like Kobe's titles mean absolutely nothing as far as his career achievements.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:00 PM
This is where you lose credibility. Something tells me you don't know the first thing about the triangle offense. It would turn Lebron more into a jump-shooter and the Laker team would have undoubtedly been worse, as it does not play to his strengths. If you want to cater to his strengths you run the risk of undermining what the rest of the Laker team took years to learn and perfect in the triple post offense. The only possible improvement would come from Phil Jackson being a far superior coach to Mike Brown.

I know all about the triangle offense. But when you talk about a talent like LeBron you throw it all out the window.

LakerKB24Fan
05-28-2009, 08:01 PM
I like the points you make. I also would like to add that Kobe doesn't have an NBA finals MVP. Shaq has 3 Jordan has 6. Shaq could have won a ring with Ray Allen as his partner or even Vince Carter. Carter and Shaq in their prime yes sir! Think about it Shaq and Penny Hardaway almost won 1 in their time in Orlando. they were too young, so they didn't. But they would have won 1 eventually! It was always about Shaq not Kobe. This is why I believe Kobe will never be as good as MJ no matter how often people try to lie to themselves. I know Jordan had Pippen but I ask you to look at the numbers Jordan's were always better than Kobe's by a lot. Jordan's numbers even better than LeBron. LeBron is better than Kobe because if you trade Kobe for LeBron The Lakers would have won 70 games and the Cavs would have won around 50.
Think of it this way the Cavs had the best record in the league even though LeBron had no help. Cavs minus LeBron, they win 25 games. Lakers minus Kobe, they win 40 games. LeBron is better than Kobe. MJ is better than LeBron. Which leads to Kobe having to win a ring w/out Shaq!

LeBron would love to have Gasol and Odom, at least Ariza by his side. And Bynum forget about it! Dang I might have gone off topic but I was trying to prove a point.

I hate it when people say this. How exactly did you know that if Lebron was on the Lakers, Lakers would've have won 70 games? For all you know Lebron might have been a bad fit for the Lakers and doesn't fit with the triangle offense... The Lakers are built around Kobe Bryant and the Cavalier are built around Lebron James you can't just swap players and assume that one will do better on the other team.

JordansBulls
05-28-2009, 08:03 PM
JB, quick question. I notice that you have said in the past, that Kareem is the only player that has the resume to compete with MJ for "best ever". But out of his five titles, its arguable that he was never the best player on the team. He had the Big O and Magic on his team. Do you think Kareem needs to come back and win a ring as the best player on the team so that he can be in the top 3 ever?

Or do you think he was the best player on the Lakers, and maybe Magic needs to come out of retirement to have a team built around him to show that he is a top 5 NBA player?

My point is, sometimes, when two great players are on the same team, and they win a title, later on in the future, they are both remembered for winning championships. Not for who was the best. Oscar and Kareem both are known for winning one championship in Milwaukee. Both Kareem and Magic are credited with winning 5 rings with the Lakers. Nobody has ever said, "well, Magic never did it without Kareem, so if he wants to be an all time great, he will have to win a ring without him." Or vice versa.

I just will never understand people acting like Kobe's titles mean absolutely nothing as far as his career achievements.

Well to Kareem's credit he has the stats with Wilt and MJ, but he has the total accolades as well. He still does have 2 finals MVP's and he has 6 league MVP's which is currently the most ever.

With regard to Magic and Kareem though the difference is that they both ended up winning titles together but both ended up winning season and league MVP's together while winning titles, so that is why they generally both get the credit.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:03 PM
This is where you lose credibility. Something tells me you don't know the first thing about the triangle offense. It would turn Lebron more into a jump-shooter and the Laker team would have undoubtedly been worse, as it does not play to his strengths. If you want to cater to his strengths you run the risk of undermining what the rest of the Laker team took years to learn and perfect in the triple post offense. The only possible improvement would come from Phil Jackson being a far superior coach to Mike Brown.

If you have a problem with what I just said then just think like this put Odom and Gasol along with Bynum on the Cavs. Then put Ilgauskas Wallace and Varejao on the Lakers. I guran-Damn_te you that the Cavs will be better than the Lakers.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:06 PM
I hate it when people say this. How exactly did you know that if Lebron was on the Lakers, Lakers would've have won 70 games? For all you know Lebron might have been a bad fit for the Lakers and doesn't fit with the triangle offense... The Lakers are built around Kobe Bryant and the Cavalier are built around Lebron James you can't just swap players and assume that one will do better on the other team.

How about you swap Gasol Odom and Bynum for Ilgauskas Wallace and Varejao. Then what do you think. Who wins more LeBron or Kobe?

Hawkeye15
05-28-2009, 08:06 PM
Kobe is a top 20 player ever. But there was NO question Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson, was the best player on their team when they won it all. The same can not be said of Kobe. So yes, it is of monster importance, in order for him to even think of being mentioned top 10, to win a title as the lead dog.
as far as best ever, the conversation starts and stops at Michael Jordan. There is no debate. If you attempt to make one, you are a fool

montazingmvp
05-28-2009, 08:07 PM
This is where you lose credibility. Something tells me you don't know the first thing about the triangle offense. It would turn Lebron more into a jump-shooter and the Laker team would have undoubtedly been worse, as it does not play to his strengths. If you want to cater to his strengths you run the risk of undermining what the rest of the Laker team took years to learn and perfect in the triple post offense. The only possible improvement would come from Phil Jackson being a far superior coach to Mike Brown.

its hard to speculate whether the lakers would be better with bron or kobe. but bron could thrive in triangle offense just as scottie pippen did...very similar players if you ask me.

and also, who says the lakers would have to play with the triangle...the coach is going to use the system that his star can thrive in best and the team can be the most succcessful with....

Chronz
05-28-2009, 08:07 PM
JB, quick question. I notice that you have said in the past, that Kareem is the only player that has the resume to compete with MJ for "best ever". But out of his five titles, its arguable that he was never the best player on the team. He had the Big O and Magic on his team. Do you think Kareem needs to come back and win a ring as the best player on the team so that he can be in the top 3 ever?

Or do you think he was the best player on the Lakers, and maybe Magic needs to come out of retirement to have a team built around him to show that he is a top 5 NBA player?

My point is, sometimes, when two great players are on the same team, and they win a title, later on in the future, they are both remembered for winning championships. Not for who was the best. Oscar and Kareem both are known for winning one championship in Milwaukee. Both Kareem and Magic are credited with winning 5 rings with the Lakers. Nobody has ever said, "well, Magic never did it without Kareem, so if he wants to be an all time great, he will have to win a ring without him." Or vice versa.

I just will never understand people acting like Kobe's titles mean absolutely nothing as far as his career achievements.

Big O was 32 by that time, it was similar to what played out in San Antonio in terms of value to a championship. The aging vet on his last final great season with a talented youngster not yet near his peak forming the best tandem in the league.

Still it was obvious Duncan was the leader, just as it was Kareem was when Milwaukee won. But honestly, do you believe titles should bear that much weight? Was Kobe when he first won his title really a better player than the year he missed the playoffs? Possibly but what about his historical campaign? I understand the vindication Kobe will feel from winning this chip, but when he does arent we going to look back and say we knew he could, it was just a matter of time and talent.

Blah Blah Blah
05-28-2009, 08:07 PM
Also wut I believe is that with the way the media portrayed Kobe during all those years after shaq, he kinda needs something that can bring up his image in a big way again. It's just unfortunate that there was so much hate toward him by writers, analysts, players even, and that led to fans believing all of that. Those same people did mention a few years ago if Kobe was ever able to win a title without shaq and this is all for him to regain what he lost in those days. I never believed all that and still loved him then and still love him now. Also if Lebron bolts the CAVS...you may hear some whispers about him as well in a slightly negative way, maybe not as bad as Boozer but still.....

Hawkeye15
05-28-2009, 08:07 PM
How about you swap Gasol Odom and Bynum for Ilgauskas Wallace and Varejao. Then what do you think. Who wins more LeBron or Kobe?

while I don't think this should be another LeBron-Kobe thread, good point.

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 08:09 PM
If you have a problem with what I just said then just think like this put Odom and Gasol along with Bynum on the Cavs. Then put Ilgauskas Wallace and Varejao on the Lakers. I guran-Damn_te you that the Cavs will be better than the Lakers.

Why would you put the Laker's second and third best players on the Cavs but not the Cav's second best player on the Lakers in that hypothetical?

TBH, Mo Williams and Kobe would be a sick backcourt, seeing how he does everything Derek Fisher does 10x better, but anyway, I don't think Mike Brown as the coaching capacity to make that team any better than PJ with the Lakers. I'd love to see Lebron just plow over Pau and Bynum to get to the rim, because there may not be a limited space on paper but in real life there is only so much room for two seven footers and Lebron in the paint.

You have to account for chemistry.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:10 PM
Pau can shoot from the outside go ahead and put Mo with the Lakers if you want I'll still take Gasol or Odom.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2009, 08:11 PM
omg. Please don't start, who has a better supporting cast argument. Kobe in a landslide.

Zefflin
05-28-2009, 08:14 PM
Kobe does, in a landslide...no.

ink
05-28-2009, 08:14 PM
I don't think he really needs to cross over any more hurdles or win any more championships. He's already one of the all-time greats. Maybe not as high as some would put him, but he's definitely top 15. When you consider the level of talent that's played in the NBA over that time, that's a pretty damn good accomplishment.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:14 PM
My bad, anyways Kobe is an all-time great but he does have to win a title w/out Shaq to prove just what level of greatness he is. Is he on the MJ level(I doubt anyone is on his level but you know the media you can't stop them) or is Kobe on Dwyane Wade level.

ink
05-28-2009, 08:16 PM
Kobe is a top 20 player ever. But there was NO question Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson, was the best player on their team when they won it all. The same can not be said of Kobe.

I fail to see why that matters.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:17 PM
Laters, it was nice debating with you guys

Angel
05-28-2009, 08:18 PM
Because Shaq won a championship the year he left LA which proves he was the main reason the Lakers won all those titles.

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 08:18 PM
omg. Please don't start, who has a better supporting cast argument. Kobe in a landslide.

Ok, two equal players, one has a better cast, one is in a much better position to win the conference finals and win a championship. What's your point? Logically, this makes a ton of sense. Lebron as the undisputed best player started to come around shortly after the Hawk's sweep but I haven't heard much of it since. Implying that the Laker's would win a ton more games with Lebron is inherently flawed because its based on an assumption that Lebron is on another level compared to Kobe.

hotpotato1092
05-28-2009, 08:18 PM
I'm getting so sick of this "LeBron has no help" crap. Mo Williams was an all star, Zydrunas Illgauskas is a former all star who's still pretty damn good, Delonte West is an above average SG, Ben Wallace and Anderson Varejao are both solid bigs, Wally can still shoot with the best of them and even Joe Smith can still contribute. He's got help, maybe not as much as Kobe, but it's not like those teams he had early in his career when Ricky Davis was the next best player.

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 08:18 PM
Because Shaq won a championship the year he left LA which proves he was the main reason the Lakers won all those titles.

No he didn't.
It took another year and it took another superstar SG to win it with. This is the first year Kobe has had an active and current all-star on his team so we'll see how it works out.

Zefflin
05-28-2009, 08:19 PM
My bad, anyways Kobe is an all-time great but he does have to win a title w/out Shaq to prove just what level of greatness he is..

Tis true unfortionatly.


Is he on the MJ level(I doubt anyone is on his level but you know the media you can't stop them) or is Kobe on Dwyane Wade level.

Huh? No.

blacknell
05-28-2009, 08:19 PM
even if kobe wins a title this year he still didn't prove he could do it alone. Gasol Bynum Odom, Fisher,Ariza. He will always be known for needing another all star on the team to win. You saw what happened when he didn't have great players around him, he couldn't make it to the playoffs. Also a big difference between MJ and Kobe is that Mj made players better, what did pippen do when mike wasn't there? Kobe is being teamed up with guys who were already 20 point scoreers and all stars..

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:22 PM
Tis true unfortionatly.



Huh? No.

I meant when their careers are done what kind of legacy they would leave. I think Wade would be comparable to Kobe if Kobe never wins another title. At least Wade won a Finals MVP, albeit with Shaq's help. Again after their careers are done. Not now!

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 08:23 PM
even if kobe wins a title this year he still didn't prove he could do it alone. Gasol Bynum Odom, Fisher,Ariza. He will always be known for needing another all star on the team to win. You saw what happened when he didn't have great players around him, he couldn't make it to the playoffs. Also a big difference between MJ and Kobe is that Mj made players better, what did pippen do when mike wasn't there? Kobe is being teamed up with guys who were already 20 point scoreers and all stars..

name his 20 point scorers and all-stars besides Gasol who is now an all-star again for the first time in 3 years

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:23 PM
even if kobe wins a title this year he still didn't prove he could do it alone. Gasol Bynum Odom, Fisher,Ariza. He will always be known for needing another all star on the team to win. You saw what happened when he didn't have great players around him, he couldn't make it to the playoffs. Also a big difference between MJ and Kobe is that Mj made players better, what did pippen do when mike wasn't there? Kobe is being teamed up with guys who were already 20 point scoreers and all stars..

Some agree, some disagree, I agree!
My dumbass brothers are Laker fans.

MaHaRaJaH
05-28-2009, 08:23 PM
i always thought it was something to psyche him out...

Zefflin
05-28-2009, 08:25 PM
even if kobe wins a title this year he still didn't prove he could do it alone. Gasol Bynum Odom, Fisher,Ariza. He will always be known for needing another all star on the team to win. You saw what happened when he didn't have great players around him, he couldn't make it to the playoffs. Also a big difference between MJ and Kobe is that Mj made players better, what did pippen do when mike wasn't there? Kobe is being teamed up with guys who were already 20 point scoreers and all stars..

Wow. You reek of hate.

Oh he's going to, and how sweet it will be.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:26 PM
name his 20 point scorers and all-stars besides Gasol who is now an all-star again for the first time in 3 years

Odom is a very good player and so is Gasol. don't focus on the wrong thing. You are relying to much on insignificant information. Odom was never a 20 point scorer but the guy is a baller.

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 08:28 PM
even if kobe wins a title this year he still didn't prove he could do it alone. Gasol Bynum Odom, Fisher,Ariza. He will always be known for needing another all star on the team to win. You saw what happened when he didn't have great players around him, he couldn't make it to the playoffs. Also a big difference between MJ and Kobe is that Mj made players better, what did pippen do when mike wasn't there? Kobe is being teamed up with guys who were already 20 point scoreers and all stars..

Fisher has never made an all star team, nor has Bynum, Odom and Ariza, so what are you talking about? Have you seen their production over the playoffs, outside of Ariza, none of those guys have been consistent. Obviously, Gasol is an all-star, we all know that.

What is this garbage about him not proving he can't do it alone and win a ring, name someone that did? Magic had Kareem, Worthy, Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, Shaq needed both Kobe and Wade to win titles. The list goes on, every championship team needs more than one elite level player to win it all. Your argument is so flawed, it makes no sense at all. Based on that logic, Kobe's not supposed to have a good team, just lead a bunch of guys like Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, and Smush Parker to the title? lol. Name a player that has done that? The Celtics won the title last year with KG (Hall of famer, top 5 Power Forward, top 20 all time), Paul Pierce (Hall of Famer) and Ray Allen (Borderline hall of famer). My point is, Kobe's not the first player to have a guy like Gasol as his 2nd guy and won't be the last.

*The year Jordan retired, Pippen led the Bulls to 50 plus wins and to the 2nd round without having another major superstar on his team.:eyebrow:

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:29 PM
Pippen was a beast. but he still needed Jordan to win 6 titles. Just like Kobe needs Shaq, maybe until now that is. But don't forget it's 6 titles not 3.

GspLAL
05-28-2009, 08:30 PM
I know all about the triangle offense. But when you talk about a talent like LeBron you throw it all out the window.

Yeah throw it out the window and just run plays for Lebron right? Look where that's gotten them

BALLER71
05-28-2009, 08:30 PM
You guys are missing the point. Bird, Jordan, and Magic were the best players on their championship teams. Kobe wasn't, Shaq was.

Lakers4ItAll
05-28-2009, 08:32 PM
It's because Kobe is probably the most hated NBA player of all time.


My point is, sometimes, when two great players are on the same team, and they win a title, later on in the future, they are both remembered for winning championships. Not for who was the best. Oscar and Kareem both are known for winning one championship in Milwaukee. Both Kareem and Magic are credited with winning 5 rings with the Lakers. Nobody has ever said, "well, Magic never did it without Kareem, so if he wants to be an all time great, he will have to win a ring without him." Or vice versa.

I just will never understand people acting like Kobe's titles mean absolutely nothing as far as his career achievements.

BALLER71
05-28-2009, 08:32 PM
Yeah throw it out the window and just run plays for Lebron right? Look where that's gotten them

It's gotten them to the NBA Finals... sure they lost but still. Taking that ****** team to the Finals is a great accomplishment. No triangle offense there.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:32 PM
Majic Johnson was is the best Laker of all-time. Maybe the best player of all-time.

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 08:34 PM
You guys are missing the point. Bird, Jordan, and Magic were the best players on their championship teams. Kobe wasn't, Shaq was.

No, the other poster was trying to say that Kobe was supposed to do it alone and win without another all-star and I pointed out that championship teams need more than one all-star player to win, everyone knows that.:eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
05-28-2009, 08:35 PM
I fail to see why that matters.

because it is exponentially easier to ride coat tails than it is to be the clear cut leader, and the player the other team formulates a game plan around. Kobe, and Wade, were both benefactors of the other team having to completely focus on a 7'1", 325 lb center who dominated.
That is why it matters.

GspLAL
05-28-2009, 08:35 PM
Pau can shoot from the outside go ahead and put Mo with the Lakers if you want I'll still take Gasol or Odom.

You can have Odom, someone who plays well one game and disappears in 5.

M's Fan2411
05-28-2009, 08:36 PM
talking crap to someone through a computer is something I normally don't do but that fool started talking crap first.

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 08:38 PM
It's gotten them to the NBA Finals... sure they lost but still. Taking that ****** team to the Finals is a great accomplishment. No triangle offense there.

Almost as effective as the get the ball to Iverson on every play final's run. Just face it, the east was at its weakest in 06-07. Team's in the western semi-finals put more wins against the Spurs than the Eastern final's opponent. The defending champs were nowhere to be found and injury ridden, Pistons were started to walk on their last legs, and well, there really wasn't any other team worth talking about in the east that year.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2009, 08:39 PM
I'm getting so sick of this "LeBron has no help" crap. Mo Williams was an all star, Zydrunas Illgauskas is a former all star who's still pretty damn good, Delonte West is an above average SG, Ben Wallace and Anderson Varejao are both solid bigs, Wally can still shoot with the best of them and even Joe Smith can still contribute. He's got help, maybe not as much as Kobe, but it's not like those teams he had early in his career when Ricky Davis was the next best player.

why is Mo and all star??? Because he played on a 60+ win team. Big Z?? haha, ok. He was over his prime a little while back. LeBron's supporting cast fits him, but there is NO WAY, on paper, and up and down the lineup, LeBron's teammates can compete with Kobes. None. And add to that, Kobe has the best coach in modern basketball history.
If you are sick of it, open you're eyes. Easy enough, right. I am not gonna say the Lakers would have won more games by simply swapping Kobe for LeBron. Both teams have surrounded their stars with talent that fits their strengths, etc. But the Lakers on paper, are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more talented than the Cavs. Please.

BALLER71
05-28-2009, 08:40 PM
No, the other poster was trying to say that Kobe was supposed to do it alone and win without another all-star and I pointed out that championship teams need more than one all-star player to win, everyone knows that.:eyebrow:

My post was not directed at you... i'm just saying why Kobe has to win without Shaq. Because at the time, Shaq was the best player on that team. In the other situations that the original poster mentioned, Jordan, Bird and Magic were the best players on that team. It's important for Kobe to win one as the leader and best player of that team.
But he's still a great player. I'm not saying that his other rings aren't **** but I think for him to be mentioned with some of the greats it's important for him to win a title this year.

D-Amazins
05-28-2009, 08:41 PM
Lakers have MUCH better supporting cast around Kobe then LeBron has with the Cavs. It's not even debateable. The Trio of Gasol, Bynum & Odom is exceptionally better then what the Cavs have to offer.

Throw in Ariza who is a good scorer and great defender, along with veteran Fisher and youngsters Farmer & Brown and its a no contest. Lakers have guys that can be starters on other teams ON THE BENCH!!!

The Cavs have a bunch of complementory pieces. Nothing close to being able to just have them run the game without any help from LeBron what so ever. The combination of Gasol, Odom & Ariza could carry the lakers for a whole entire half.

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 08:43 PM
why is Mo and all star??? Because he played on a 60+ win team. Big Z?? haha, ok. He was over his prime a little while back. LeBron's supporting cast fits him, but there is NO WAY, on paper, and up and down the lineup, LeBron's teammates can compete with Kobes. None. And add to that, Kobe has the best coach in modern basketball history.
If you are sick of it, open you're eyes. Easy enough, right. I am not gonna say the Lakers would have won more games by simply swapping Kobe for LeBron. Both teams have surrounded their stars with talent that fits their strengths, etc. But the Lakers on paper, are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more talented than the Cavs. Please.

Ahh, so were my Knicks back in the fran-bury days, then the prime eddy curry and zach randolph along with jamal crawford and 6moty candidate nate robinson along with the leading double double grabber david lee.

But I get your point overall, as long as you conceded that the swap lebron for kobe and get 20+ wins was a load of crap which is why this all started.

Fayzon10
05-28-2009, 08:45 PM
Pau can shoot from the outside go ahead and put Mo with the Lakers if you want I'll still take Gasol or Odom. Lets see Fisher who is old and cant keep any one in front of him, Ariza who is starting to make a name for himself this playoffs but come on, Pau who is known to be soft and lets face it sometimes Pau shows up and sometimes he doesn't, Odom who is Mr. inconsistent and shows up every fourth game, and Bynum who has said it himself is screwed up in the head and plays timid as hell and you think Kobe hands down has the best talent around him??

DfanAlways
05-28-2009, 08:46 PM
I dont think the debate is whether or not Kobe will be an all-time great if he does or doesn't win a ring without Shaq. The debate is whether or not Kobe is in legitimate regards to being as good or better than Jordan. On paper, Jordans teams don't come close to the team Kobe has had this year & last. If Kobe can't take this team to the finals, he's not the leader Jordan was, nor is he as good of a player (making his teammates better) to elevate such a talented team to the finals.

the only team, close to having a debate with Kobes of now, is Jordans squad of (Kerr, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman & Longley).

Even then, you compare (Fisher, Kobe, Ariza, Bynum & Gasol)... then you bring Odom, Walton & Farmar off the bench.


Kobe is already an all-time great. He's a scorer. The question is whether or not he "can" win a ring "without" Shaq. If he can't, then Shaq was what made the Lakers what they were & Kobe will go down in history as a prolific scorer unable to lead his "team" to a championship. Still an all-time great though.

Raps08-09 Champ
05-28-2009, 08:47 PM
To prove he can do win it without him.

Kobe was in the backseat when the Lakers won it.

Kobe is an amazing player but he has to win a title without Shaq to prove he can do it by himself.

montazingmvp
05-28-2009, 08:48 PM
No he didn't.
It took another year and it took another superstar SG to win it with. This is the first year Kobe has had an active and current all-star on his team so we'll see how it works out.

you're missing this simple premice....kobe was replacable (see wade), shaq is not

Hawkeye15
05-28-2009, 08:49 PM
Ahh, so were my Knicks back in the fran-bury days, then the prime eddy curry and zach randolph along with jamal crawford and 6moty candidate nate robinson along with the leading double double grabber david lee.

But I get your point overall, as long as you conceded that the swap lebron for kobe and get 20+ wins was a load of crap which is why this all started.

please dude, I am not a hollow numbers type of guy. Both teams have put players around them that compliment their stars. The Lakers have far more talent, its that easy. And Curry, Randolph, Crawford? haha. They are the definition of hollow numbers. I understand basketball, and value. The Lakers have Gasol, Bynum, Odom (who defines inconsistency, but is a good player), Ariza, and Phil Jackson. Cleveland has Mo Williams, and..............
get it?
and imo, both teams would have less wins if you simply swapped them. The Lakers would be closer to that 60 win area, but they are both products of their surroundings. The Lakers have simply had much longer to fill out the roster, and have had the big market thing going on, plus a great GM in West, and a great coach in Phil. Cleveland lucked out and was able to draft THE MAN. Nothing more.

montazingmvp
05-28-2009, 08:50 PM
Fisher has never made an all star team, nor has Bynum, Odom and Ariza, so what are you talking about? Have you seen their production over the playoffs, outside of Ariza, none of those guys have been consistent. Obviously, Gasol is an all-star, we all know that.

What is this garbage about him not proving he can't do it alone and win a ring, name someone that did? Magic had Kareem, Worthy, Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, Shaq needed both Kobe and Wade to win titles. The list goes on, every championship team needs more than one elite level player to win it all. Your argument is so flawed, it makes no sense at all. Based on that logic, Kobe's not supposed to have a good team, just lead a bunch of guys like Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, and Smush Parker to the title? lol. Name a player that has done that? The Celtics won the title last year with KG (Hall of famer, top 5 Power Forward, top 20 all time), Paul Pierce (Hall of Famer) and Ray Allen (Borderline hall of famer). My point is, Kobe's not the first player to have a guy like Gasol as his 2nd guy and won't be the last.

*The year Jordan retired, Pippen led the Bulls to 50 plus wins and to the 2nd round without having another major superstar on his team.:eyebrow:

mj one three titles without rodman

ink
05-28-2009, 08:50 PM
because it is exponentially easier to ride coat tails than it is to be the clear cut leader, and the player the other team formulates a game plan around. Kobe, and Wade, were both benefactors of the other team having to completely focus on a 7'1", 325 lb center who dominated.
That is why it matters.

Have you watched how Kobe plays?? Of course you have.

Is that how a player rides coat tails??

Seriously. This is such a ridiculous topic. I can't stand Kobe but I still respect him. Give the man his due. He's one of the top players to ever play in a league stacked with talent. Let's not split hairs and say that he rides coat tails. He would be a legitimate force on any team.

BALLER71
05-28-2009, 08:51 PM
you're missing this simple premice....kobe was replacable (see wade), shaq is not

Winner.

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 08:51 PM
you're missing this simple premice....kobe was replacable (see wade), shaq is not

Not if Kobe wins with a big man playing at an all-star level in Gasol this year. If he wins it this year then it disproves the expendable argument.

blacknell
05-28-2009, 08:53 PM
name his 20 point scorers and all-stars besides Gasol who is now an all-star again for the first time in 3 years

Gasol 18points 11 boards, Odom averages 15 points and 8 boards, Bynum 14 and 8 and guess what odom and gasol's numbers have went down since coming to LA which means unlike Mike kobe makes the players around him worse.

Clevland besides Mo Williams don't have a scorer to help King James. Big Z averages 12 points and west averages 10

mrmike101
05-28-2009, 08:54 PM
JB, quick question. I notice that you have said in the past, that Kareem is the only player that has the resume to compete with MJ for "best ever". But out of his five titles, its arguable that he was never the best player on the team. He had the Big O and Magic on his team. Do you think Kareem needs to come back and win a ring as the best player on the team so that he can be in the top 3 ever?

Or do you think he was the best player on the Lakers, and maybe Magic needs to come out of retirement to have a team built around him to show that he is a top 5 NBA player?

My point is, sometimes, when two great players are on the same team, and they win a title, later on in the future, they are both remembered for winning championships. Not for who was the best. Oscar and Kareem both are known for winning one championship in Milwaukee. Both Kareem and Magic are credited with winning 5 rings with the Lakers. Nobody has ever said, "well, Magic never did it without Kareem, so if he wants to be an all time great, he will have to win a ring without him." Or vice versa.

I just will never understand people acting like Kobe's titles mean absolutely nothing as far as his career achievements.

SHAQ GOT ANTION WALKER aND JASON WILLIAMS A RING GOD DAMMIT OPEN YOUR EYES IT WAS ALL SHAQ OBVIOUSLY I THINK KAPONO HAS A RING AS WELL THEN SHAQ MADE A RAP KOBE HOW MY *** TASTES OPEN YOUR EYES AND EARS!!!

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 08:57 PM
Gasol 18points 11 boards, Odom averages 15 points and 8 boards, Bynum 14 and 8 and guess what odom and gasol's numbers have went down since coming to LA which means unlike Mike kobe makes the players around him worse.

Clevland besides Mo Williams don't have a scorer to help King James. Big Z averages 12 points and west averages 10

I guess Paul Pierce made Ray Allen and KG worse because their stats went down when they came to Boston? NO! There's the concept of sharing the ball towards a total team effort.

blacknell
05-28-2009, 09:03 PM
I guess Paul Pierce made Ray Allen and KG worse because their stats went down when they came to Boston? NO! There's the concept of sharing the ball towards a total team effort.

the thing there is pierce numbers went down as well while sir Kobes numbers are going up

Eagles_Guy
05-28-2009, 09:03 PM
I didn't read all the posts, but I'd have to say a factor is that so many people try to compare him to Jordan (and lets face it probably every SG from now on will be); the Bulls could not get it done without Jordan, and when he came back they went on another 3 peat.

I think there is also merit in what montazingmvp said - Shaq moved on with another great SG and got another title.

Kobe is definitely an all time great, but to be like really up there, he's gonna have to accomplish things that guys like Jordan, Bird etc did.

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 09:10 PM
the thing there is pierce numbers went down as well while sir Kobes numbers are going up

Sigh, besides the fact that isn't true (Kobe's numbers by season: 35ppg > 31 ppg > 28 ppg > 26 ppg)

It doesn't matter who's numbers go down just as long as the team is better. I chose Pierce because he was the person originally on the team.

Enough with the baseless statements that are easily disproved with a google search... its getting tiring.

mrmike101
05-28-2009, 09:11 PM
No, the other poster was trying to say that Kobe was supposed to do it alone and win without another all-star and I pointed out that championship teams need more than one all-star player to win, everyone knows that.:eyebrow:

Cough detriot pistons. The team that made kobe cry LMAO TEARS OF JOY!!!!!!!

P.S. none were allstars that year.. maybe ben wallace and that is a complete joke he belongs in the same category as magloire and mo williams (allstar 1 hit wonders a joke)

madiaz3
05-28-2009, 09:22 PM
Cough detriot pistons. The team that made kobe cry LMAO TEARS OF JOY!!!!!!!

P.S. none were allstars that year.. maybe ben wallace and that is a complete joke he belongs in the same category as magloire and mo williams (allstar 1 hit wonders a joke)

They had FOUR all-stars the next...
I don't think it can be denied that they were all-star types. Hedo Turkoglu is an example of an all-star type. Deron Williams hasn't been an all-star but I'm sure you would consider having him on your team more help than having Jameer, Mo Will, or Ray Allen.

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 09:42 PM
Cough detriot pistons. The team that made kobe cry LMAO TEARS OF JOY!!!!!!!

P.S. none were allstars that year.. maybe ben wallace and that is a complete joke he belongs in the same category as magloire and mo williams (allstar 1 hit wonders a joke)

Stop with the dumb posts, it just makes you look like you don't know anything about basketball. The 04 Pistons were deep, Billups, Hamilton, R. Wallace, B. Wallace, T. Prince are all-stars and were playing at an all star level during that time period. They also had a deep bench with L. Hunter, E. Campbell, D. Ham, M. Okur, C. Williamson, the Pistons were a very good team, in fact, the very next year, they took San Antonio to 7 games in the finals.

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 09:44 PM
mj one three titles without rodman

And Horace Grant was there before Rodman, so what? Grant was one of the better power forwards in the NBA during that time.

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 09:47 PM
you're missing this simple premice....kobe was replacable (see wade), shaq is not

:eyebrow: I could use that argument for Shaq and replace him with Duncan and he and Kobe would win 3 or 4 titles.

lakersrock
05-28-2009, 09:52 PM
He is already a top 10-15 player all time. He doesn't need another one to prove he is. However to get into that group of players that have won multiple titles as the best on the team including multiple finals MVP's and season MVP's he needs to win some titles as the best on the team. And no it doesn't mean he has to win without Shaq, it means he just has to win as the best on the team. Like had it been Shaq from 2006 or something it would be clear that Kobe from that time 2006-2009 was better than 2006 Shaq. So if he won with him than that is fine.

I agree about 10-15. That said, if he can win 2-3 titles with Gasol as his second best player, he'll without a doubt be in the Magic, MJ, Bird, Kareem group. I honestly don't believe anyone on this Lakers team outside of Kobe will be in the HOF, so to win multiple titles without one would be amazing given every other one of those guys didn't.

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 09:53 PM
Lakers have MUCH better supporting cast around Kobe then LeBron has with the Cavs. It's not even debateable. The Trio of Gasol, Bynum & Odom is exceptionally better then what the Cavs have to offer.

Throw in Ariza who is a good scorer and great defender, along with veteran Fisher and youngsters Farmer & Brown and its a no contest. Lakers have guys that can be starters on other teams ON THE BENCH!!!
The Cavs have a bunch of complementory pieces. Nothing close to being able to just have them run the game without any help from LeBron what so ever. The combination of Gasol, Odom & Ariza could carry the lakers for a whole entire half.

You are looking at one game and basing your argument on that alone. Fisher is 34 yrs old and has "never" been an elite guard, and is on his last leg. He avgs. about 6ppg and 2 apg, not good production from your point guard. Farmar plays a whopping 10 mins. a game and has not been effective for the most part. Brown is a solid backup. Odom is avg. 10ppg for the Lakers against Denver and outside of last night's good performance, he was only avg. 8ppg. Bynum avgs. 6ppg. The only constants on the Lakers are Kobe and Gasol. Ariza is not a great defender, don't mistake a few steals from gambling as him being a great, lockdown defender. An example of a great defender is Shane Battier or Kevin Garnett. Ariza is a good role player. The Lakers have a good team, but they are by no means stacked and get lackluster performances from most of their players.

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 10:01 PM
A poster known by Dodgers&Lakers described the Lakers roster great and here is his quote from a few days ago:


All I want to know is when everybody is going to stop saying the Lakers have the best talent in the NBA?

Kobe and Pau, studs. Kobe both on offense and defense. Pau, only on offense. But after that, its a coin flips chance as to what you will get from every other player.

Bynum, 21 year old who has never once had a full good NBA season.

Odom will disappear for a month at a time. And that is no exaggeration. What has he done against the Rockets and Nuggets over the past two months? He will have one good game, and several bad ones. Does that constitute a good player? Hell no in my opinion.

Ariza, he is a good "steal" defender. But he is far from a good defender. I put him in the same class defensively with AI, Wade and Lebron before this year. Guys who fill up the stat sheet with pretty steals and blocks, but cant keep their man in front of them to save their lives. Or they do not know how to push the offensive player to help defenders, or take the offensive player off their sweet spots on the court. If I have to hear how great he is at defense I am going to throw up. Melo was sick as a dog last night and had a bad ankle, but in the 4th quarter, he drove by Ariza like he wasnt even there.

Fisher He was never a top 15 point guard in the league. Even in his prime he was marginal at best. Now he is probably the biggest liability anyone has in the league. He cant play d and he cant hit a 3. He should be fined every time he drives to the paint. I think he is 7 for 156 on contested layup this year.

And that bench. Vujacic is the biggest fraud ever. He had a great year at contract time. Who would have guessed. He has been awful all year. And he has been atrocious in these playoffs. Kobe cant sit on the bench for more than 2 minutes before the Lakers go from being down by 7, to down by 15. Or up by 14 to up by 1. Opposing fans thought they were the only ones who hated that guy. Wrong! I hate him too. And every time he pulls up for a jump shot, I want to punch him in the face. Stop shooting if you only make 25% of your shots @$$hole!!!

Farmar,
Walton
Brown He is the only bench player that has played good this year.

How the Lakers have gotten this far with no bench to speak of, and being weak at the most important position on the floor (point guard) is beyond me.

$KnicksAndKobe$
05-28-2009, 10:03 PM
:eyebrow: I could use that argument for Shaq and replace him with Duncan and he and Kobe would win 3 or 4 titles.

:clap: way to rape the post

Lakersfan2483
05-28-2009, 10:05 PM
:clap: way to rape the post

I just get sick of that old argument of Kobe being expendable, etc, well if that's the case, LA could have replaced Shaq with Duncan and won 3 or more titles, maybe more because Duncan was always in top shape and didn't have the injuries Shaq had.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2009, 10:17 PM
Have you watched how Kobe plays?? Of course you have.

Is that how a player rides coat tails??

Seriously. This is such a ridiculous topic. I can't stand Kobe but I still respect him. Give the man his due. He's one of the top players to ever play in a league stacked with talent. Let's not split hairs and say that he rides coat tails. He would be a legitimate force on any team.

alright, coat tails was a STRONG word. I agree. But Kobe's ridic numbers came because the other team based their entire defensive strategy to stop Shaq. They would let anyone else beat them. Kobe is probably the best second banana for a championship team.
I think Kobe is a top 15-20 player ever. I have stated that multiple times. How is that not giving him his due? Ink, c'mon dude. you see more posts of mine than most

ink
05-28-2009, 10:25 PM
alright, coat tails was a STRONG word. I agree. But Kobe's ridic numbers came because the other team based their entire defensive strategy to stop Shaq. They would let anyone else beat them. Kobe is probably the best second banana for a championship team.
I think Kobe is a top 15-20 player ever. I have stated that multiple times. How is that not giving him his due? Ink, c'mon dude. you see more posts of mine than most

I know you give credit where it's due. Sorry about that.

I'm over-stating a bit too because I want to challenge the stock criticism of some of these players. I don't buy that players need to win rings "by themselves" to be great. It's been used on Kobe far too much and (not saying in your case) generally speaking, it's because people just resent Kobe.

Again ...

Top 10-20 in NBA HISTORY means he is ALREADY an all-time great.

I don't see many disputing his ranking in that range, therefore he has already reached the level of one of the all-time greats. If he wins another ring it will simply take him into the top 10 all time.

To be honest, "all time" great = top 50. If it didn't then why was there a ceremony honouring the league's top 50 a few years back?

mrblisterdundee
05-28-2009, 10:28 PM
Kobe needs to win a championship without Shaq because now he is the most important member of a championship-caliber team. During the three-peat, Shaquille was the most important player. Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol add together to equal one Shaquille. If they were made into one player, he would be the most important on the team. Since they are only two halfway-diluted versions of Shaquille, Kobe is the most important.

NYtilIdie
05-28-2009, 10:38 PM
The main reason nobody questioned the people you listed cause they were the best players on their teams and in many eyes they carried the teams to the championship (you can argue with Magic). Now while Kobe was putting up 27 ppg during the 3-peat Shaq was putting up 30-10 during the 3-peat and many feel Shaq was the center piece of that team and their right. Shaq demanded double teams when he got the ball in the paint which helped Kobe get open shots. Say what you want Shaq was the best player on that team.
Now Kobe is the best player on his team and if the Laker's win the championship this year it will be because Kobe carried them to the Finals and he will obviously be the main reason they win.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2009, 10:47 PM
I know you give credit where it's due. Sorry about that.

I'm over-stating a bit too because I want to challenge the stock criticism of some of these players. I don't buy that players need to win rings "by themselves" to be great. It's been used on Kobe far too much and (not saying in your case) generally speaking, it's because people just resent Kobe.

Again ...

Top 10-20 in NBA HISTORY means he is ALREADY an all-time great.

I don't see many disputing his ranking in that range, therefore he has already reached the level of one of the all-time greats. If he wins another ring it will simply take him into the top 10 all time.

To be honest, "all time" great = top 50. If it didn't then why was there a ceremony honouring the league's top 50 a few years back?

agreed. If he wins a ring as the clear cut leader, he slips into top 8-15. For sure.

GspLAL
05-28-2009, 11:04 PM
Ahh, so were my Knicks back in the fran-bury days, then the prime eddy curry and zach randolph along with jamal crawford and 6moty candidate nate robinson along with the leading double double grabber david lee.

But I get your point overall, as long as you conceded that the swap lebron for kobe and get 20+ wins was a load of crap which is why this all started.

Exactly, people just think it's all about gathering the best players and it's auto win, have you guys forgotten about the 04 Lakers already? cmon.

montazingmvp
05-28-2009, 11:27 PM
:eyebrow: I could use that argument for Shaq and replace him with Duncan and he and Kobe would win 3 or 4 titles.

no you can't. because that never happened...you stick to speculation, i'll stick to facts

montazingmvp
05-28-2009, 11:29 PM
And Horace Grant was there before Rodman, so what? Grant was one of the better power forwards in the NBA during that time.

horace grant...rodman and horace grant are on two different levels...grant being on the lower one...

he was a good player, but one of the best pf's...no

montazingmvp
05-28-2009, 11:34 PM
You are looking at one game and basing your argument on that alone. Fisher is 34 yrs old and has "never" been an elite guard, and is on his last leg. He avgs. about 6ppg and 2 apg, not good production from your point guard. Farmar plays a whopping 10 mins. a game and has not been effective for the most part. Brown is a solid backup. Odom is avg. 10ppg for the Lakers against Denver and outside of last night's good performance, he was only avg. 8ppg. Bynum avgs. 6ppg. The only constants on the Lakers are Kobe and Gasol. Ariza is not a great defender, don't mistake a few steals from gambling as him being a great, lockdown defender. An example of a great defender is Shane Battier or Kevin Garnett. Ariza is a good role player. The Lakers have a good team, but they are by no means stacked and get lackluster performances from most of their players.

why do you feel the need to protect kobe by bashing his teammates...?

you don't think ariza is a good defender?...because he is. and anyone who says otherwise is a fool...you know he's a good defender, you watch him every night. he's made the two biggest steals of the playoffs, himself. he's done a pretty good job on jr smith..he's in the top 5 sf defenders in the league... gasol has not been at his best this playoffs but don't act like he's done nothing...he's still getting double digit rebounds every game and scoring efficiently. two very underrated stats.

ink
05-28-2009, 11:46 PM
All I get from this whole discussion is that some of you just enjoy arguing about obvious things. :shrug: This is a no-brainer, so you must be intentionally trying to prolong a discussion just for argument's sake.

ink
05-28-2009, 11:47 PM
It's obvious to every intelligent NBA fan that Kobe Bryant's career accomplishments are belittled by tons of people because his three titles came with Shaq. My question is why does that matter? Why does it seem like people think his titles don't count because he had a dominant teammate?

Larry Bird won three titles, but had two hall of famers (Parish and Mchale) with him for each one, not to mention another borderline hall of famer (Denis Johnson) and another hall of famer (Bill Walton) there for some of them

Magic Johnson won five titles, but had Kareem (who is likely better than Shaq) with him for each one as well as guys like James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper and so on. Nobody ever belittles Magic for not winning one "by himself". Are we even sure Magic was the best player on his team?

Michael Jordan won six titles and is the standard to which all current players are measured against. But he had Scottie Pippen for each one, Scottie was a top 10 scorer and a top 10 defender during his day, a first ballot hall of famer in his own right and the founder of the "point forward" position. We all seem to forget that Michael had guys like Charles Oakley and Dennis Rodman on his team as well, and yet Kobe is vilified for winning with Shaq and... Robert Horry? Derek Fisher? No player on those Laker title teams other than Shaq and Kobe would have even been in the Bull's rotation during their title years.

My point is simple, NOBODY has ever won a title on their own, why is Kobe the only one who gets criticized for failing to do so? Why can't people appreciate that he has three titles, if you asked any NBA fan from 2003 on they might think he hasn't won a single one. It's just ridiculous. Maybe Kobe isn't Jordan, but he's an all time great who doesn't get the respect he deserves, even if he never wins a title "on his own".

:clap::clap::clap:

This thread was done with the first post.

ARMIN12NBA
05-28-2009, 11:55 PM
:clap::clap::clap:

This thread was done with the first post.

Pretty much.

People forget how dominant Kobe was defensively those years and how great he was offensively as well. He was the Lakers Conference Finals MVP during those years. Then Shaq would take care of the Finals. Arguably the greatest duo right there.

FaceDown91
05-28-2009, 11:56 PM
:clap::clap::clap:

This thread was done with the first post.

if that's the case then can the thread be closed? lol

GCOOKIE7
05-28-2009, 11:59 PM
Magic won the finals without Kareem. thus proving he didn't necessarily NEED Kareem.
Magic won 5 titles and had his career shut down early due to HIV.

Kobe couldn't compare to Magic.

ARMIN12NBA
05-29-2009, 12:00 AM
why do you feel the need to protect kobe by bashing his teammates...?

How is he bashing Kobe's teammates? Fisher is pretty much a joke now (I've been saying this for months) and Farmar is awful (again, months). Lamar is inconsistent. Everything he said was true.


you don't think ariza is a good defender?...because he is.

Ariza is a solid defender. He has great hands. His problem is man defense.


and anyone who says otherwise is a fool...you know he's a good defender, you watch him every night. he's made the two biggest steals of the playoffs, himself. he's done a pretty good job on jr smith..

He's actually not guarding JR Smith. He has been guarding Carmelo Anthony. Actually, I have been disappointing by his defense this series. Ariza has not been good at all against Carmelo. JVG and Mark Jackson have even continually called out Ariza for his porous defense at times.

The thing with Ariza is that he has trouble with strong and physical players. He is better when he can use his quickness and length to an advantage like he did with Ron Artest who pretty much resorted to becoming an outside shooter in the second round.

ARMIN12NBA
05-29-2009, 12:03 AM
Magic won the finals without Kareem. thus proving he didn't necessarily NEED Kareem.
Magic won 5 titles and had his career shut down early due to HIV.

Kobe couldn't compare to Magic.

No.

lakersrock
05-29-2009, 12:03 AM
agreed. If he wins a ring as the clear cut leader, he slips into top 8-15. For sure.

I'd say Top 5 if he wins two with this group.....MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem and Kobe.

(I refuse to add Chamberlain and Russell, because they really dominated a weak league in terms of C for most of their careers. They are Top 10 though.)

GCOOKIE7
05-29-2009, 12:07 AM
No.

Never.

albertc86
05-29-2009, 12:29 AM
My question is --- how many titles does Shaq have without Kobe or Wade? Shaq didn't do it alone. As great as he is, he needed a GREAT perimeter player. Not to mention, the Kobe-Shaq dynasty had great role players that bailed them out countless times. In my honest opinion, they wouldn't have won as many as they did, had it not been for the supporting cast. And the Heat title? Mostly Wade, and a weak finals, if you ask me. Not to take anything from Wade but that Mavs team was without a killer instinct.

D-Leethal
05-29-2009, 12:31 AM
It's obvious to every intelligent NBA fan that Kobe Bryant's career accomplishments are belittled by tons of people because his three titles came with Shaq. My question is why does that matter? Why does it seem like people think his titles don't count because he had a dominant teammate?

Larry Bird won three titles, but had two hall of famers (Parish and Mchale) with him for each one, not to mention another borderline hall of famer (Denis Johnson) and another hall of famer (Bill Walton) there for some of them

Magic Johnson won five titles, but had Kareem (who is likely better than Shaq) with him for each one as well as guys like James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper and so on. Nobody ever belittles Magic for not winning one "by himself". Are we even sure Magic was the best player on his team?

Michael Jordan won six titles and is the standard to which all current players are measured against. But he had Scottie Pippen for each one, Scottie was a top 10 scorer and a top 10 defender during his day, a first ballot hall of famer in his own right and the founder of the "point forward" position. We all seem to forget that Michael had guys like Charles Oakley and Dennis Rodman on his team as well, and yet Kobe is vilified for winning with Shaq and... Robert Horry? Derek Fisher? No player on those Laker title teams other than Shaq and Kobe would have even been in the Bull's rotation during their title years.

My point is simple, NOBODY has ever won a title on their own, why is Kobe the only one who gets criticized for failing to do so? Why can't people appreciate that he has three titles, if you asked any NBA fan from 2003 on they might think he hasn't won a single one. It's just ridiculous. Maybe Kobe isn't Jordan, but he's an all time great who doesn't get the respect he deserves, even if he never wins a title "on his own".

good point, nice thread :clap:

ink
05-29-2009, 12:32 AM
For just one time I'd like to close a thread about Kobe on a good note. Consensus?? :D

desertlakeshow
05-29-2009, 12:38 AM
Interesting crowd and discussion. I really do not get the lack of respect that Kobe gets from an NBA forum.

Could we all agree that he is a top player to ever play the game. Is he in the same breath as Magic, MJ, Kareem, etc. Maybe not if we make it the rule that you have to be the best player on your team to be in this crowd.

I will concede this if you guys concede that the minute he does win a title as the leader of his team and one that has 0 (yes 0) hall of fame players that he is immediately mentioned in the same breath as the other group.

No MJ never won without a hall of famer
No Kareem never won without a hall of famer
No Magic never won without a hall of famer

And who the $%ck keeps bringing up Labron and his 0-1 trip to the finals. Stop please before I choke myself.

JordansBulls
05-29-2009, 12:38 AM
Sure.

nickster16301
05-29-2009, 01:03 AM
growing up i was an avid lakers fan...then kobe turned on shaq and decided he can win rings by himself...thats the reason i dislike kobe now...ya he might win one more by himself but he could have won atleast three more with shaq on his side...kobe is a top 20 player all time i think but shaq is a top 5 all time player and in fact i would take shaq right behind jordan if you ask me because shaq in his prime was unstoppable

desertlakeshow
05-29-2009, 01:14 AM
If you are an avid Laker fan I am shocked that you even think that shaq would even be the greatest Laker of all time much less the 2nd GOAT.

I feel like you have a very narrow view of the problems between the trifecta of Kobe-Shaq-Dr. Buss. Laying the split all at Kobe's feet is a mistake in my opinion.

If you started watching basketball in the 90's maybe I can understand your opinion. Just to be clear, I respect your opinion but I do not agree with it.

lakers4sho
05-29-2009, 01:19 AM
growing up i was an avid lakers fan...then kobe turned on shaq and decided he can win rings by himself...thats the reason i dislike kobe now...ya he might win one more by himself but he could have won atleast three more with shaq on his side...kobe is a top 20 player all time i think but shaq is a top 5 all time player and in fact i would take shaq right behind jordan if you ask me because shaq in his prime was unstoppable

No he couldn't have. Fact.

Lakersfan2483
05-29-2009, 01:22 AM
no you can't. because that never happened...you stick to speculation, i'll stick to facts

You made the ridiciulous comment that Kobe was replacable on the 3 peat Lakers' team and he clearly was not. They don't win 3 straight titles without Kobe, period. You could argue players that you could put on that team at that time and win with Shaq, but at the same time, I could do the same and put different guys like Duncan on the team, and Kobe could win with him also.

Lakersfan2483
05-29-2009, 01:31 AM
why do you feel the need to protect kobe by bashing his teammates...?

you don't think ariza is a good defender?...because he is. and anyone who says otherwise is a fool...you know he's a good defender, you watch him every night. he's made the two biggest steals of the playoffs, himself. he's done a pretty good job on jr smith..he's in the top 5 sf defenders in the league... gasol has not been at his best this playoffs but don't act like he's done nothing...he's still getting double digit rebounds every game and scoring efficiently. two very underrated stats.

Ariza made great plays on the ball and came up with great steals., but that doesn't qualify someone as a top 5 Sf defender. His on the ball defense needs a lot of work and he gambles too much which hurts his teammates in terms of getting the bigs in foul trouble. He's still improving and is a solid defender, but by no stretch of the imagination is he a lockdown defender. I can name 5 small forwards that play better defense than Ariza and it's no knock on Ariza, but he's not the lockdown defender you think he is. He's a solid defender who has great hands and plays the passing lanes very well.

I didn't say Gasol was not contributing, I clearly stated he and Kobe have been the most consistent players for the team. I was pointing out that the Lakers' team has been struggling through the playoffs outside of those two guys (Ariza has stepped up and has been a good role player). As far as the rest of the guys, you can't tell me they have been consistently playing up to par, I have watched every single game and we have not been getting enough "consistent" production and effort from Fisher, Odom, Bynum, Sasha, Farmar, etc.. on a night in basis, that was my point, which was quite obvious.:eyebrow: I am not bashing the lakers team to protect Kobe. The fact is Odom has been struggling since the Houston series, Bynum has been very dissapointing outside of one or 2 games, Farmar has not been very good and Sasha is missing in action. I am simply stating facts that you can easily view by watching games and studying the contributions of each player on the team this postseason. Stats alone don't tell the entire story about how up and down the role player's have been this postseason, some games they are giving an all out effort and other games it's like they should not have bothered suiting up.

Lakersfan2483
05-29-2009, 01:38 AM
How is he bashing Kobe's teammates? Fisher is pretty much a joke now (I've been saying this for months) and Farmar is awful (again, months). Lamar is inconsistent. Everything he said was true.



Ariza is a solid defender. He has great hands. His problem is man defense.



He's actually not guarding JR Smith. He has been guarding Carmelo Anthony. Actually, I have been disappointing by his defense this series. Ariza has not been good at all against Carmelo. JVG and Mark Jackson have even continually called out Ariza for his porous defense at times.

The thing with Ariza is that he has trouble with strong and physical players. He is better when he can use his quickness and length to an advantage like he did with Ron Artest who pretty much resorted to becoming an outside shooter in the second round.

:clap: I was thinking the same thing when I posted earlier.

DieselPowered32
05-29-2009, 03:26 AM
I think winning a title without Shaq..would just bring peace of mind to Kobe so people can stop bringing that up once and for all. Right now who he wins with probably doesn't matter to him, he just wants to win cos he knows his not getting any younger so he wants to win now to put a bit more polish on an outstanding career

montazingmvp
05-29-2009, 03:35 AM
You made the ridiciulous comment that Kobe was replacable on the 3 peat Lakers' team and he clearly was not. They don't win 3 straight titles without Kobe, period. You could argue players that you could put on that team at that time and win with Shaq, but at the same time, I could do the same and put different guys like Duncan on the team, and Kobe could win with him also.

the point is shaq went elsewhere and was successful (success equalling championship) with another guard, whereas kobe has not yet proved that he can be successful with a very good big man himself...

MickeyMgl
05-29-2009, 04:06 AM
He doesn't.

GspLAL
05-29-2009, 04:12 AM
the point is shaq went elsewhere and was successful (success equalling championship) with another guard, whereas kobe has not yet proved that he can be successful with a very good big man himself...

Oh I get it, Gasol = Wade now.

AIverson
05-29-2009, 04:15 AM
He doesn't need to win anything with or without anyone.

Championships do not define a players legacy. Only the weak minded think that they do.

MickeyMgl
05-29-2009, 04:18 AM
He doesn't have to win another title to be an all-time great but he does have to win one if he doesn't want to be remembered as the guy who needed Shaq. Shaq proved he didn't need Kobe when he won one with D-Wade

So Jordan is the guy who needed Pippen?

MickeyMgl
05-29-2009, 04:25 AM
If you have a problem with what I just said then just think like this put Odom and Gasol along with Bynum on the Cavs. Then put Ilgauskas Wallace and Varejao on the Lakers. I guran-Damn_te you that the Cavs will be better than the Lakers.

Well, of course. Odom, Gasol, and Bynum are better than those other three. It also happens to ensure that Lebron would not have REMOTELY as impressive individual numbers as he's had.

Also, are you remembering to factor in that the Cavaliers only get Bynum for about 30 games?

The Blue Baller
05-29-2009, 04:25 AM
So Jordan is the guy who needed Pippen?

No, Pippen needed Jordan.
The whole retirement thing showed that.

The Blue Baller
05-29-2009, 04:27 AM
My point is simple, NOBODY has ever won a title on their own, why is Kobe the only one who gets criticized for failing to do so? Why can't people appreciate that he has three titles, if you asked any NBA fan from 2003 on they might think he hasn't won a single one. It's just ridiculous. Maybe Kobe isn't Jordan, but he's an all time great who doesn't get the respect he deserves, even if he never wins a title "on his own".

Umm... Hakeem Olajuwon? Rick Barry?

MickeyMgl
05-29-2009, 04:35 AM
How about you swap Gasol Odom and Bynum for Ilgauskas Wallace and Varejao. Then what do you think. Who wins more LeBron or Kobe?

A healthy Andrew Bynum would've probably been worth a few more wins for the Lakers - and the league's best record.

So if you take the 2nd, 3rd and 4th best players from that team and give them to the Cavaliers in exchange for their 3rd, 4th, and 6th best players, that's likely to make a difference in Cleveland's favor.

Uh... great point.

The Blue Baller
05-29-2009, 04:35 AM
Well, of course. Odom, Gasol, and Bynum are better than those other three. It also happens to ensure that Lebron would not have REMOTELY as impressive individual numbers as he's had.

Also, are you remembering to factor in that the Cavaliers only get Bynum for about 30 games?

Just like putting Iverson on the Nuggets would take away from Anthony's numbers?

MickeyMgl
05-29-2009, 04:36 AM
Kobe is a top 20 player ever. But there was NO question Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson, was the best player on their team when they won it all.

Cedric Maxwell won the Finals MVP when Larry Bird won his first ring in 1981.

MickeyMgl
05-29-2009, 04:55 AM
even if kobe wins a title this year he still didn't prove he could do it alone. Gasol Bynum Odom, Fisher,Ariza. He will always be known for needing another all star on the team to win.

When was the last time a team won without at least two players who had ever been in an All-Star game?



You saw what happened when he didn't have great players around him, he couldn't make it to the playoffs. Also a big difference between MJ and Kobe is that Mj made players better, what did pippen do when mike wasn't there?

More than MJ did when Pippen wasn't there. 55 wins, All-NBA 1st team, 3rd in MVP voting, and one shady call from a trip to the Conference Finals.

Is there a statistical way to measure this "making teammates better" crap? Because generally speaking, most of Bryant's teammates have done better with him than without him.

So, going back to your other point. Which was the season that Jordan won a championship without another All-Star caliber player?



Kobe is being teamed up with guys who were already 20 point scoreers and all stars..

"Guys"? One guy. After being saddled with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker. Who wins with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker? Nobody.

mr. burns
05-29-2009, 04:57 AM
nobody doubts that kobe is an all time great, but when you start counting rings, you have to see that kobe was the second fiddle on those three teams with shaq. scottie pippen is a HOF caliber player (not near as good as kobe) but because he was always second fiddle to michael. It's hard to make a case for scottie based on his six rings, because everybody knows he wasn't THE man. For kobe to be compared to magic and larry he needs a couple of championship mvps. to be compared to michael? I think it is too late to make up that kind of ground.

MickeyMgl
05-29-2009, 04:58 AM
No, Pippen needed Jordan.
The whole retirement thing showed that.

How did it show that?

MickeyMgl
05-29-2009, 05:02 AM
nobody doubts that kobe is an all time great, but when you start counting rings, you have to see that kobe was the second fiddle on those three teams with shaq. scottie pippen is a HOF caliber player (not near as good as kobe) but because he was always second fiddle to michael. It's hard to make a case for scottie based on his six rings, because everybody knows he wasn't THE man. For kobe to be compared to magic and larry he needs a couple of championship mvps. to be compared to michael? I think it is too late to make up that kind of ground.

I think there is a distinction that most of Jordan's supporters refuse to make. I don't think Kobe has a chance to approach Jordan's CAREER. I do think that it is reasonable (in other discussions, not this one) to compare their skills as basketball players.

Bottom line, I agree that it is highly unlikely Bryant will come anywhere close to Jordan in terms of hardware. Their careers followed different paths.

mr. burns
05-29-2009, 05:20 AM
I think there is a distinction that most of Jordan's supporters refuse to make. I don't think Kobe has a chance to approach Jordan's CAREER. I do think that it is reasonable (in other discussions, not this one) to compare their skills as basketball players.

Bottom line, I agree that it is highly unlikely Bryant will come anywhere close to Jordan in terms of hardware. Their careers followed different paths.

a fair enough point, but in the long term you have to look at them as far as careers go. to take an anolgy from another sport, Jim Brown was an all time great running back (if not the greatest), but the fact is players keep getting stronger and faster. I don't know if jim brown were 21 years old today if he could even make an NFL team. the backs are now way stronger and way faster than he was.

all we can compare is the hardware and the stats and that is why michael stands alone.

GspLAL
05-29-2009, 05:29 AM
If Cavs had Odom, Gasol, Bynum, then for sure they would need to setup plays for Gasol, and 50/50 for Bynum & Odom, which means Lebrons points and assits will be lower. With a player like Odom who can handle the ball with his size, Lebron wouldn't control the ball as much as he does, and with Gasol you throw him the ball in the post and he makes a play, same with Bynum but not as much as Gasol. What go to plays do Cavs run for Mo or West? Nothing, go stand in the corner and see if you get a pass for a shot from Lebron, of course his numbers will be inflated.

RapOZo
05-29-2009, 08:15 AM
If the lakers win the tittle and kobe's finals mvp
will i read some recognition from kobe's haters? absolutely no!
I know them already, they will always find something to say that kobe needs to do to be named within the greatest of all time.

Like a kobe fan i've never compared him to jordan cuz i dont wanna make kobe look bad,
but, I get tired of haters always taking advantage of this, oh he's nowhere close to Jordan, WTF!, is that the only way you can get recognition?? being like Jordan! that's not fair,

lakersrock
05-29-2009, 10:18 AM
Whoever talked about 20 PPG and All StarS....

Gasol had one before this year....nobody else has been. Plus, Pau's only averaged 20 PPG twice. (20.4 and 20.8 PPG...didn't get it by much.)

If Kobe wins a title with this group, it'll prove his leadership and amazing ability due to him not having one HOF. You have to remember he made the Finals and lost to three HOF last year and barring injuries, there's no reason to think he won't be in the Finals at least a couple more times with this group without another HOF.

lakers4sho
05-29-2009, 10:19 AM
No, Pippen needed Jordan.
The whole retirement thing showed that.

:confused:

Try arguing that against the fact that the Pippen-led Bulls won 55 games without Jordan, and was a phantom call away from advancing to the ECF, where they would've easily moved on to the Finals. Or the fact that Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen.

Anyways, Kobe IS ALREADY an All-Time great. His accomplishments and championship rings attest to that. But if he wants further himself into the higher group of individuals, he has to lead this team to a championship or two.

ugottabjoshinme
05-29-2009, 10:38 AM
even if kobe wins a title this year he still didn't prove he could do it alone. Gasol Bynum Odom, Fisher,Ariza. He will always be known for needing another all star on the team to win. You saw what happened when he didn't have great players around him, he couldn't make it to the playoffs. Also a big difference between MJ and Kobe is that Mj made players better, what did pippen do when mike wasn't there? Kobe is being teamed up with guys who were already 20 point scoreers and all stars..

no one can win it all on their own. Every star needs another star. Look at jordan and pippen, bird had mchale and parish, magic had kareem and vice a versa, shaq and kobe, shaq and wade, hakeem and drexler, garnett allen and pierce, duncan and robinson.

Point is nobody can do it by themselves

GCOOKIE7
05-29-2009, 10:58 AM
He doesn't need to win anything with or without anyone.

Championships do not define a players legacy. Only the weak minded think that they do.

Cuz you're an Allen Iverson fan.

JKiddFan4Life
05-29-2009, 12:08 PM
No, Pippen needed Jordan.
The whole retirement thing showed that.
First off, I'm not the biggest Kobe fan and like every other basketball fan I am a Jordan fan, but to say that Pippen "needed" Jordan is simply crazy. Just like Shaq/Kobe, the duo needed one another in order to work efficiently. Jordan was always great, but until Pippen was brought in, the opposing teams could just throw their best defenders (as well as multiple defenders) at Jordan to slow him down. Once Pippen came on board Jordan had someone to pass to out of the double team who could either score or make a great pass. So, in a sense, Jordan really needed Pippen as well. Shaq and Kobe were the same way, if Kobe were being double-teamed he could give the ball to Shaq and vice versa. Even when Shaq was scoring 30, 40, and 50 points, that alone isn't going to give your team a win. Both players made the other better.

My opinion, any player that can put up 81 points against an opposing NBA team is quality in my book and will be one of the greatest of all-time, with our without another ring.

jrice9
05-29-2009, 01:44 PM
This is my favourite thread since both cavs and laker fans are trashing their teams lol to show which star is better

G-Funk
05-29-2009, 05:51 PM
if you trade Kobe for LeBron The Lakers would have won 70 games and the Cavs would have won around 50.

Think of it this way the Cavs had the best record in the league even though LeBron had no help. Cavs minus LeBron, they win 25 games. Lakers minus Kobe, they win 40 games.
LeBron would love to have Gasol and Odom, at least Ariza by his side. And Bynum forget about it! Dang I might have gone off topic but I was trying to prove a point.

If Kobe's teamates played defense like the Lebrons Cavs they would be 72-10.

ggg
05-29-2009, 07:43 PM
why does everyone think one man can win it all? every championship is a collective effort on both ends of the court. look at the cavs now, yeah they can play solid D but on offense they just let lebron go iso on top. Magic's defense is gon change on game 6, theyr not gonna let lebron get that ball that easy. theyr gonna deny and double team which they didnt do on game 5. Gundy's strategy? who knows? but orlando have dominated the cavs so far. the Shaq-Kobe was probably the most dominating duo of the 21st century but every role players were key players to the game. everybody knew their role which cant be said if you replace them with someone else.

ggg
05-29-2009, 07:52 PM
If Kobe's teamates played defense like the Lebrons Cavs they would be 72-10.

every great team has their own personality, 09 lakers i think likes to play possum or like phil said, jekyll and hyde. On an interview Mo' even said they didnt expect to be in the position they are in today. Imo thats mike brown's amateurism as a head coach. If lebron wants to win a championship, he gotta demand for a better coaching staff. I wouldnt be surprised if brown's gone if they dont make the finals.

madiaz3
05-29-2009, 10:14 PM
every great team has their own personality, 09 lakers i think likes to play possum or like phil said, jekyll and hyde. On an interview Mo' even said they didnt expect to be in the position they are in today. Imo thats mike brown's amateurism as a head coach. If lebron wants to win a championship, he gotta demand for a better coaching staff. I wouldnt be surprised if brown's gone if they dont make the finals.

first head coach to win coach of the year and be fired the same?

RapOZo
05-30-2009, 12:36 AM
If Kobe's teamates played defense like the Lebrons Cavs they would be 72-10.
I don't like this but since some of you are into this lets put it like that too
If the Lakers were in the east they would be 74-8

ggg
05-30-2009, 12:41 AM
first head coach to win coach of the year and be fired the same?

alot of coaches had been fired after winning coach of the year so its not like it hadnt happened before.

Chronz
05-30-2009, 12:44 AM
I don't like this but since some of you are into this lets put it like that too
If the Lakers were in the east they would be 74-8


If the Cavs were in the West they would be 75-7

RapOZo
05-30-2009, 12:48 AM
If the Cavs were in the West they would be 75-7
whatever son

ggg
05-30-2009, 01:01 AM
If Garnett hadnt got injured, the cavs would be gone fishin by now.

The Blue Baller
05-30-2009, 01:13 AM
I don't like this but since some of you are into this lets put it like that too
If the Lakers were in the east they would be 74-8


The Lakers went 21-9 against the East this year...
So I don't think so

The Blue Baller
05-30-2009, 01:23 AM
First off, I'm not the biggest Kobe fan and like every other basketball fan I am a Jordan fan, but to say that Pippen "needed" Jordan is simply crazy. Just like Shaq/Kobe, the duo needed one another in order to work efficiently. Jordan was always great, but until Pippen was brought in, the opposing teams could just throw their best defenders (as well as multiple defenders) at Jordan to slow him down. Once Pippen came on board Jordan had someone to pass to out of the double team who could either score or make a great pass. So, in a sense, Jordan really needed Pippen as well. Shaq and Kobe were the same way, if Kobe were being double-teamed he could give the ball to Shaq and vice versa. Even when Shaq was scoring 30, 40, and 50 points, that alone isn't going to give your team a win. Both players made the other better.

My opinion, any player that can put up 81 points against an opposing NBA team is quality in my book and will be one of the greatest of all-time, with our without another ring.

That's really no more crazy than saying Mo Williams needs Lebron more than Lebron needs Mo Williams. There's an obvious difference.

abe_froman
05-30-2009, 01:48 AM
i thought he already was one:shrug:

ARMIN12NBA
05-30-2009, 03:44 AM
If the Cavs were in the West they would be 75-7

Are you being serious?

MickeyMgl
05-30-2009, 04:34 AM
every great team has their own personality, 09 lakers i think likes to play possum or like phil said, jekyll and hyde. On an interview Mo' even said they didnt expect to be in the position they are in today. Imo thats mike brown's amateurism as a head coach. If lebron wants to win a championship, he gotta demand for a better coaching staff. I wouldnt be surprised if brown's gone if they dont make the finals.

I'd be surprised if he goes anywhere. He won the COY and above all, he's Lebron's boy.

kblo247
05-30-2009, 04:51 AM
Are you being serious?

can't be the top 9 of the West would make Lebron their ***** if they were there on a regular basis

Boston Faithful
05-30-2009, 05:29 AM
It's quite simple. Kobe Bryant is like Scottie Pippen right now. Scottie Pippen finished like third in MVP voting the year Jordan was retired. Pippen was secondary to Jordan all those years, and maybe if he spent his whole career alone he would have been in the MVP running every year. Pippen finished as a top 15 player in his career as he was always a perennial All-Star and a perennial defender. Kobe needs to win a shitload of championships to even be in a conversation with Jordan or on his level. Jordan averaged 37.1, 35.0 and 32, 8, 8. He won Five MVPs, and Six Finals MVPs. Six Championships. Two Defensive Player of the Years. Kobe averaged 35 once, was never a Finals MVP, won the MVP award once and will never, ever come close to winning defensive player of the year. Plenty of people have done what Kobe has done in his career. Allen Iverson got to the Finals once by himself and won the MVP like Kobe last year. Heck, Iverson even averaged 33 one year.

LeBron and Kobe have leap years before they come close to Jordan. People forget how clutch Michael actually was. 90% of the time you could depend on Jordan down the stretch, he rarely ****ed up. His most known screw up was when Nick Anderson stole the ball late in the 95' Playoffs and the Magic went on the eliminate the Bulls. You know what Jordan did? He came back and won 72 games and almost swept the entire playoffs the next year. Jordan is above all, by far in passion, work ethic and he was actually able to get along with his teammates and they ended up loving him. You cannot say any of that about Kobe.

Boston Faithful
05-30-2009, 05:34 AM
Just like putting Iverson on the Nuggets would take away from Anthony's numbers?

No, but look at those teams and I think maybe one other person averaged 10. You had Iverson and Melo going for 50 and the rest of the team going for 40 (a combined like - 8 guys) If you put Vince Carter on the Cavs and he averages 20, LeBron would struggle to average 25. Because there is no way Mo, Z, and Delonte West take hits like most of the Nuggets did during the Iverson years.

gcoll
05-30-2009, 05:48 AM
He doesn't.

The only people who will make that argument can't think. If you don't believe me, go look at some of the players who never even won a ring. Some of the greatest players ever never won a title. Stockton, Malone, Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Ewing, Elgin Baylor, Pistol Pete, Dominique Wilkins.....and I'm sure there are more great players who never won a ring.

A ring is a team accomplishment. Arguing about individual players based on amount of rings is silly.

Rudebeggar
05-30-2009, 07:54 AM
I cant stand him,, because i am a celtics fan , i am sure i would love him if he were on our team. IMHO there is no debate on whetheer or not he is an all time great

kbaxter34
05-30-2009, 09:38 AM
you're missing this simple premice....kobe was replacable (see wade), shaq is not

Wade is the 3rd best player in the league behind Kobe and Lebron. Shaq would not of won a championship with the Heat had Wade not gone nuts in the Finals. Wade avg 35pts in the Finals, 28 6 6 for the playoffs Shaq only avg 18pts. Wade was Finals MVP for a reason. Clearly Wade was the reason they won that championship.


Gasol 18points 11 boards, Odom averages 15 points and 8 boards, Bynum 14 and 8 and guess what odom and gasol's numbers have went down since coming to LA which means unlike Mike kobe makes the players around him worse.

Gasols best year in Mem he avg 20.8pts 8.4reb 3.2ast this year he avg 18.9pts 9.6reb 3.5ast. Thats just as good as his Mem numbers if not better. Your argument is flawed. Pippen had career highs in pts, reb and stl without Jordan. When Jordan came back his FG% dropped from .491 to .463 so with your logic Jordan made the players around him worse.


Umm... Hakeem Olajuwon? Rick Barry?

Hakeem had Clyde Drexler, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Mario Elie, Sam Cassell and Robert Horry. In no way shape or form did he do it alone

Rick Barry had Jamaal Wilkes, Butch Beard and Phil Smith all three All-stars

One person cannot win a championship on their own. Its a team accomplishment. Therefore no player should be judge by how many rings they have.

JordansBulls
05-30-2009, 09:46 AM
One person cannot win a championship on their own. Its a team accomplishment. Therefore no player should be judge by how many rings they have.

You never go by just rings. In fact, I hardly ever use rings. I use league and finals mvp's more often than rings. In fact you need league mvp's, finals mvp's, stats, etc.

RaiderLakersA's
05-30-2009, 03:53 PM
Kobe doesn't need another ring to be in the conversation with any of the all-time greats. He had as much to do with the first 3 rings that as Kareem and Worthy did with Magic or Bird and McHale and Parrish or any other unit.

The irony is that once again people are trying to have it both ways. Where Kobe is perceived as the best individual talent, people use the team concept as their basis for denigrating him. Where he accomplished championships within the team paradigm, those same people want to disregard that, too.

Really, do you drill in Alaska for the kind of haterade that some of you are spewing?

ink
05-30-2009, 04:15 PM
go look at some of the players who never even won a ring. Some of the greatest players ever never won a title. Stockton, malone, reggie miller, charles barkley, jason kidd, steve nash, ewing, elgin baylor, pistol pete, dominique wilkins.....and i'm sure there are more great players who never won a ring.

A ring is a team accomplishment. Arguing about individual players based on amount of rings is silly.

+1

MickeyMgl
05-30-2009, 06:33 PM
It's quite simple. Kobe Bryant is like Scottie Pippen right now.

Asinine statement #1.


Pippen finished as a top 15 player in his career

Asinine statement #2.


Kobe... will never, ever come close to winning defensive player of the year.

He will never do what he's already done? What's your definition of "close"?Not top five? Not top three?


Plenty of people have done what Kobe has done in his career.

When it comes to 81-point games and 55-point halves. Wilt Chamberlain is not "plenty of people". Two 30-point quarters? Not even Wilt. Only Kobe.

Six times in the Finals? With a bullet. How many exactly? Some Celtics, a few Lakers, a couple of Bulls?


Allen Iverson got to the Finals once by himself.

By himself??? Did the rest of the team miss the plane? Did the COY, DPOY, and 6th Man all get stuck in baggage claim?

"Iverson got to the Finals by himself" must mean that he chose to get a rental car rather than take a taxi.


People forget how clutch Michael actually was. 90% of the time you could depend on Jordan down the stretch, he rarely ****ed up. His most known screw up was when Nick Anderson stole the ball late in the 95' Playoffs and the Magic went on the eliminate the Bulls. You know what Jordan did? He came back and won 72 games and almost swept the entire playoffs the next year.

Jordan did that? JORDAN won 72 games? It had nothing to do with the Bulls signing Dennis Rodman and putting together a new championship combination, huh?


Jordan is above all, by far in passion, work ethic and he was actually able to get along with his teammates and they ended up loving him. You cannot say any of that about Kobe.

This post is hilarious. Steve Kerr LOVED Jordan punching him in the face. He got down on his knees and thanked Michael for thinking so much of him as to risk scratching his knuckles on Kerr's chin.

MickeyMgl
05-30-2009, 06:38 PM
You never go by just rings. In fact, I hardly ever use rings. I use league and finals mvp's more often than rings. In fact you need league mvp's, finals mvp's, stats, etc.

Traditionally, yes, but going forward league MVPs will be devalued thanks to the Iverson and Nash years.