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View Full Version : "These deals need to happen now!"



Brave4life
05-26-2009, 03:23 PM
by Dayn Perry

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9611414/These-deals-need-to-happen-now

Matt Holliday to the Braves---------Thoughts and comments

uncblue2332
05-26-2009, 03:33 PM
hell no to gorkys for a 2 month rental of holliday...i want to lock him up long term before a deal goes through for a top prospect

atl_braves_fan
05-26-2009, 03:44 PM
Not for a rental. No thank you.

laxman1017
05-26-2009, 03:52 PM
Here is the deal with Holliday, Tex, or any other RENTAL. It is a GREAT value only if you plan on paying whatever...and I mean WHATEVER it takes to re-sign them. The rental tag automatically drives their price tag lower than normal, under a fear that they may walk at the end of the year. Therefore you are getting a player like Holliday, who is a proven stud, for a package centered around unproven PROSPECTS. That in its own right, is a good deal.

The part of it that complicates thing, is the players WILLINGNESS to resign with the club. Tex is a good example. He spurned a HUGE contract from Texas, and gave every indication that he had no intentions on signing early, and not hitting the free agent market. With Holliday being a Boras client as well, it wouldn't suprise me if he was the same way. BUUUUUUUT, if the team that gets the rental IS ABLE to resign them....it is a great deal. If we had locked up Tex for 10 years or so....that deal wouldn't be QUITE (although still) as awful as it is right now.

So ultimately, what I am trying to say....is that we need to get a solid feel for how he FEELS about Atlanta....and we need to tender him an extension before he ever even plays a game. For a mid-market team....this is the risk you have to take to get a player of Holliday's calibur.....for ultimately a prospect or two. If he is not willing to sign an extension....then screw it. We MUST let it pass.

Coach100
05-26-2009, 04:07 PM
This only makes sense if the Braves still think Schafer is their best CF propsect and Heyward will be ready next year. If that is the case, then Gorkys can be traded and Frenchy traded/dumped. Heyward could take over if the OF for Holiday, plus Cody Johnson will be around in a 2-4 years.

A rental makes sense if a guy is blocked (which Gorkys may be) and the out-going player (Holliday) can be replaced (Heyward). Diaz would hold the Braves over till Johnson was ready.

Not saying this is a great trade or it should be done, but there seems to be some possibilities.

nps6724
05-26-2009, 04:24 PM
The only way this works is if Holliday signs a new contract the day of the trade and with Boas, that ain't happening. PASS

BravoFan3736
05-26-2009, 04:28 PM
This only makes sense if the Braves still think Schafer is their best CF propsect and Heyward will be ready next year. If that is the case, then Gorkys can be traded and Frenchy traded/dumped. Heyward could take over if the OF for Holiday, plus Cody Johnson will be around in a 2-4 years.

A rental makes sense if a guy is blocked (which Gorkys may be) and the out-going player (Holliday) can be replaced (Heyward). Diaz would hold the Braves over till Johnson was ready.

Not saying this is a great trade or it should be done, but there seems to be some possibilities.

I wounldn't mind trading Gorkys with him being block with Schafer but since Fookie has left this team as the leadoff guy this team has down right bad in that #1 spot in the lineup. I guess it is the price you have to pay to get a bat like holliday which would be great plus once we offer him Arb and he signs else where (Yanks) then we will get two top 50 picks as Comp. So as long as we value the other prospects in the trade to thoughs two picks I have no problem dealing for Holliday as a short term solution. But will have the same issue in getting the RH OF Bat in the lineup next off season. The problem the braves have that all their young bats are LH (Heyward/Freeman/CJohnson) our whole lineup will be all LH almost from top to bottom which is really bad. I just hope that we go out and give Bay the 5/75 next year which is what this team desperately needs. Otherwise be prepared to dump a TON of prospects in getting a RH OF Bat longterm via the trade route.

Brave4life
05-26-2009, 04:43 PM
we should do what the mets did with santana. only trade for him if he signs a long term deal with the braves. Tell liberty media group to cough up some cash if they want to make a solid run for a WS title. I have always wanted Holliday. Lets face the facts we cant make a run if we have a miserable outfield.

laxman1017
05-26-2009, 04:45 PM
Well stated Braves4Life.....I agree completely

brave/cuban
05-26-2009, 04:47 PM
Brave4life is right. We have a miserable outfield.

Brave4life
05-26-2009, 04:48 PM
Scott Boras has ruined the game of baseball. He is a fluke, he wants money and thats it.

Coach100
05-26-2009, 04:51 PM
But Bay for 5 years...where will everyone fit? Schafer, Gorkys, Heyward, Johnson and then Bay? Where do all these guys go? A rental makes more sense in terms of the young guys coming up. Depends on what the Braves want.

ATLKoos16
05-26-2009, 04:55 PM
Brave4life i definetly agree with you about the only way we should get him is if he signs a long term deal and also that Boras has ruined the game of baseball

laxman1017
05-26-2009, 04:55 PM
I started a new thread.....BRAD HAWPE baby....who's with me :) Look at the stats before you rip me apart :)

A_Brave_Pack
05-26-2009, 04:56 PM
9/10 Always take the PROVEN player over the PROSPECT.

I like Gorkys. If at all possible I would love to see him stay in the ATL organization. However, it would be very nice to have a player of Holliday's caliber in the middle of the Braves lineup.

Jones
Holliday
McCann

^That looks a lot better than anything the Braves have thrown out there this year. The NL East (surprisingly) is wide open. The Braves need to strike while the proverbial iron is hot and pull the trigger on this trade. The Braves of the mid 90s ALWAYS made these kind of trades to stay competitive and win now while also keeping a good farm system. In order to get FAs to come to Atlanta, the Braves need to start winning now, otherwise they run the risk of falling into baseball mid-market obscurity, which would be devastating as a fan...

Also, not to start an argument, but many of you guys that are so adamant on passing on a trade like this are the same ones who are complaining that the Braves need to do something 'now'. Holliday is probably the best marquee name on the block, and he fills a HUGE void in the Braves outfield and lineup, and Gorkys (or any other prospect not named Hanson or Heyward) are nice, but replaceable. There are a lot more 18-21 yr old prospects running around the US, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, etc, than there are 29yr old LFers who can slug .550 with 30hr and 120rbis.

Lastly, just think guys, even if the Braves don't resign Holliday, he will most certainly end up as a Type 'A' FA and net the Braves another 1st rd pick to replenish what they will lose in a trade with the A's.

BravoFan3736
05-26-2009, 05:03 PM
But Bay for 5 years...where will everyone fit? Schafer, Gorkys, Heyward, Johnson and then Bay? Where do all these guys go? A rental makes more sense in terms of the young guys coming up. Depends on what the Braves want.

Gorkys + Cjohnson Trade bait if we got Bay for the 4-5 yrs deal. Plus all the guys coming up are ALL LH and we have a greater need for a RH OF powerbat longterm. We deal the others for to fill other needs for the team in a Closer/3B MI propsects/Leadoff guy.

Having a all LH line up in acouple years will not be a situation that the braves want to be in and need someone that is RH to give the lineup more balance.

Projected Line up in 10'/11'
Schafer LH
Escobar RH
Chipper S
Bay RH
Mac LH
Freeman LH
Cjohnson LH
Heyward LH
Kotchman LH
K Jonhson LH

Brave4life
05-26-2009, 05:08 PM
I really hope frank wren can pull something big here. we are in the division race, we need a big time bat. I hope FW doesn't wait too long.

Brave4life
05-26-2009, 05:11 PM
we need a bat now. We cant get Bay right now unless we throw something huge at them. The A's are not in the race. The redsox need bay the most on the team, with papi struggling. Bay would cost us way more then holliday.

littleknighty
05-26-2009, 05:27 PM
Gorkys is one player I wouldnt trade. True leadoff hitters are almost impossible to find these days. There is no one behind Gorkys that will fill the role he can fill. Shaefer moves to right with Gorkys in CF and Heyward in Left. Gorkys isnt untouchable but he shouldnt be traded for a rental.

BravoFan3736
05-26-2009, 05:37 PM
we need a bat now. We cant get Bay right now unless we throw something huge at them. The A's are not in the race. The redsox need bay the most on the team, with papi struggling. Bay would cost us way more then holliday.

I wasn't talking about trading for bay this season but sign him as a FA next off season to be the longterm solution for the RH OF powerbat for this lineup that will be a heavy LH lineup in the future. Holliday make the most since at this point only if we trade away more value in prospects of the 2 Draft Pick that we will recieve once Holliday signs elsewhere in 10' as a FA. Would be nice to extend him but as a Bora$$ #1 rule to hit the FA market and get the max amount of $$ that his players can get.

rtgthree
05-26-2009, 06:45 PM
A few things to address here:

1) A lot of people want Holliday if he will sign an extension. There are two problems there. First, he won't. Like Mark Teixeira, Holliday has already turned down a nine-figure extension that the Rockies offered him before they traded him to Oakland. Second, there is a huge gap between Holliday's actual value and Holliday's perceived value. He's a damn good outfielder, don't get me wrong, but he's going to get paid based on his career numbers, which are inflated significantly by Coors Field. He is unlikely to be worth the money that he will command, especially since he will already be entering his age-30 season in 2010.

2) Some are saying that Gorkys is expendable because of all the other outfield prospects in the pipeline. He can go in the right deal, but ONLY in the absolute right deal. Schafer is still not a sure thing, and those of you that are penciling in Cody Johnson are WAY ahead of yourselves. He is a VERY risky prospect, and he will have to get much, much better if he is to succeed in the majors. Gorkys' defense is good enough to push Schafer to a corner; imagine the defensive possibility with Heyward, Hernandez and Schafer all in one outfield. Plus he's a classic leadoff hitter, which we need desperately. On top of all that, he's in the midst of a breakout season...if we're going to trade him, why not wait until the end of the season to maximize his value?

I don't think the Braves need a hitter of Holliday's caliber in order to contend. We can do fine with a "lesser" talent like a Brad Hawpe or a Luke Scott. With that in mind, why not keep an uber-talent like Gorkys in the organization?


Scott Boras has ruined the game of baseball. He is a fluke, he wants money and thats it.

You would probably say that Scott Boras is "selfish," but you don't realize that your statement right there is extraordinarily selfish in itself. Why shouldn't the players get paid as much as they can? How has Boras ruined the game of baseball? It's pretty self-serving of you to say that the players ought to want to please you instead of doing what's best for themselves.

A_Brave_Pack
05-26-2009, 07:05 PM
I'm with ya RTG. I'd love to keep a player of Gorkys caliber in the Braves system. However, I know that it would take a prospect of Gorkys caliber to land a stud like Holliday (even though his H/A stats are skewed). I liked your analysis of Hawpe, but I still think that it may take Gorkys to pull off a trade for Hawpe. I think the major difference in a Holliday trade versus a Hawpe trade is what level of other prospects would have to be included or exchanged.

In order to get Holliday it would take at least: Gorkys, Francoeur, JoJo, and Locke.
In order to get Hawpe it would probably take more like: Gorkys, Marek, and Jeff Lyman with a potential switch of mid-specs.

The Rockies don't NEED to trade Hawpe, because they do control him for the next 2+ seasons. Therefore, they can justify having a higher asking price than he may 'deserve'. Where as Oakland has close to no chance resigning Holliday after this season, and are more 'desperate' to trade him and get value.

THE_FLASH_21
05-26-2009, 08:03 PM
Let's get this deal done.... Holiday is a beast... Gorkys is struggling this year... But what else do u guys think we have to give up for Matt??? If we trade for him lets get him signed long term

OF

LF: Holiday
CF: Shaff
RF: Francouer/ Heyward

nps6724
05-26-2009, 08:06 PM
Gorkys is struggling this year

...In what way?

A_Brave_Pack
05-26-2009, 08:08 PM
Let's get this deal done.... Holiday is a beast... Gorkys is struggling this year... But what else do u guys think we have to give up for Matt??? If we trade for him lets get him signed long term

OF

LF: Holiday
CF: Shaff
RF: Francouer/ Heyward


^I like the enthusiasm but Gorkys isn't exactly hurting in AA right now:
.331/.385/.407 18RBIS 9SB 15BB 42K (that's high)

To answer the other part of your question about what else it would take, let's start with: (pick one from each group) JoJo/Morton, Medlen/Locke, Francoeur/B. Jones, add in Grokys and go from there.

Also, it is unlikely that the Braves would be at an advantage to sign Holliday long term. He can/will get far more money in the off-season as a FA than in a trade to the Braves.

nps6724
05-26-2009, 08:56 PM
Also, not to start an argument, but many of you guys that are so adamant on passing on a trade like this are the same ones who are complaining that the Braves need to do something 'now'. Holliday is probably the best marquee name on the block, and he fills a HUGE void in the Braves outfield and lineup, and Gorkys (or any other prospect not named Hanson or Heyward) are nice, but replaceable. There are a lot more 18-21 yr old prospects running around the US, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, etc, than there are 29yr old LFers who can slug .550 with 30hr and 120rbis.

Lastly, just think guys, even if the Braves don't resign Holliday, he will most certainly end up as a Type 'A' FA and net the Braves another 1st rd pick to replenish what they will lose in a trade with the A's.

For his career, Holliday slugs 180 points higher at home. At home, he averages a 2B every 13.2 AB and a HR every 16.5 AB. On the road, he averages a 2B every 16.4 AB and a HR every 29.4 AB. If you assume that road average stays consistent, you could expect Holliday to hit 37 2B and 20 HR in 600 AB. Francouer did that in 2007 and a lot of people said he should hit for more power. The only way you're getting 30 HR out of Holliday is if he goes back to Coors. Hell, he's only hit 30+ HR twice and he didn't even do it last year.

In the end, you want to trade multiple prospects, some who are within 1 or 2 seasons of the majors, for a rental player, who has built a career on inflated numbers, so he may help us in the stretch run. And when we don't sign him, we get an extra 1st-round pick, who won't be anywhere close to the majors for 4-5 years if we're lucky.

We had 17 1st-round picks between 1995 and 2005. Only Jason Marquis, Adam Wainwright, Kelly Johnson, Jeff Francouer, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, and Joey Devine have gotten to the majors and stayed there and only 2 of them have done anything for us. 7 have exactly zero major-league days. Hell, if you go back 25 years to 1984, you can't find 5 good major-league players in our 1st round. So how important is a 1st-round pick again?

braveMania
05-26-2009, 09:42 PM
gorkys is struggling???? sorry but your wrong there buddy..hes dominating double a.. he and heyward are the prospects im most excited about.

baseballislife7
05-27-2009, 10:10 AM
If Gorkys and Heyward keep progressing I could see Gorkys at AAA soon and Heyward at AA.

rtgthree
05-27-2009, 11:51 AM
Excellent post there at 8:56 PM by NPS. Great stuff...wish the boards here had a "thumbs up" button where you could recommend specific posts.


I'm with ya RTG. I'd love to keep a player of Gorkys caliber in the Braves system. However, I know that it would take a prospect of Gorkys caliber to land a stud like Holliday (even though his H/A stats are skewed). I liked your analysis of Hawpe, but I still think that it may take Gorkys to pull off a trade for Hawpe. I think the major difference in a Holliday trade versus a Hawpe trade is what level of other prospects would have to be included or exchanged.

In order to get Holliday it would take at least: Gorkys, Francoeur, JoJo, and Locke.
In order to get Hawpe it would probably take more like: Gorkys, Marek, and Jeff Lyman with a potential switch of mid-specs.

The Rockies don't NEED to trade Hawpe, because they do control him for the next 2+ seasons. Therefore, they can justify having a higher asking price than he may 'deserve'. Where as Oakland has close to no chance resigning Holliday after this season, and are more 'desperate' to trade him and get value.

To begin with, Hawpe isn't nearly as good a fit as I thought, because it didn't cross my mind that he's left-handed. Still, I think there are plenty of quality outfielders on the market that the Braves can trade for without giving up Gorkys Hernandez. I would much prefer two "lesser" deals to bring in a center fielder and a right fielder than one big deal to add a Holliday-type bat. You could likely make two smaller deals without involving Gorkys in either one.

BravoFan3736
05-27-2009, 12:47 PM
Excellent post there at 8:56 PM by NPS. Great stuff...wish the boards here had a "thumbs up" button where you could recommend specific posts.



To begin with, Hawpe isn't nearly as good a fit as I thought, because it didn't cross my mind that he's left-handed. Still, I think there are plenty of quality outfielders on the market that the Braves can trade for without giving up Gorkys Hernandez. I would much prefer two "lesser" deals to bring in a center fielder and a right fielder than one big deal to add a Holliday-type bat. You could likely make two smaller deals without involving Gorkys in either one.

This is what I have been saying all long with regards in getting that RH bat. Assuming that Frenchy will gone at some point we need to take a look long term for RH bat in Willingham/CodyRoss/Willits/DYoung/Spilborghs/ Murton second tier types and for a leadoff type guys of Rwinn/Flopez. Both are attainable and could be done with Gorkys being involved. Frenchy can be sent away for some MI prospects/BP arms to get something out of him before he slips further. I like the idea of releasing Norton with Canizares and see if he can provide more HR/PH situations. Call up Bjones and let GA go with him platoon with Diaz. This can be done sooner than later IMO with all these players involved on teams that are already out of contention.

nps6724
05-27-2009, 01:34 PM
Does it really matter if a guy is a RH or LH bat if he hits RH and LH pitching?

uncblue2332
05-27-2009, 02:03 PM
Does it really matter if a guy is a RH or LH bat if he hits RH and LH pitching?

It doesnt matter but 9.5 times out of 10 a LH bat will lose power against lefties. And with half our lineup LH, we wouldnt want to see many LHP in the reg. season or playoffs if we add another LH bat

rtgthree
05-27-2009, 02:22 PM
Does it really matter if a guy is a RH or LH bat if he hits RH and LH pitching?

The risk you run is vulnerability to pitchers that can mow down left-handed hitters. Especially late in games, a guy like Pedro Feliciano could just buzzsaw through the lineup. Starters don't tend to have such marked platoon splits but some are killer against lefties or righties. Having a mix ensures that a pitcher with platoon strengths can't just take your entire offense out of the game.

uncblue2332
05-27-2009, 04:29 PM
hes right please only RH bats suggested from now on

A_Brave_Pack
05-27-2009, 05:12 PM
NICE SIG UNC!!! Go Vols! :)

A_Brave_Pack
05-27-2009, 05:55 PM
For his career, Holliday slugs 180 points higher at home. At home, he averages a 2B every 13.2 AB and a HR every 16.5 AB. On the road, he averages a 2B every 16.4 AB and a HR every 29.4 AB. If you assume that road average stays consistent, you could expect Holliday to hit 37 2B and 20 HR in 600 AB. Francouer did that in 2007 and a lot of people said he should hit for more power. The only way you're getting 30 HR out of Holliday is if he goes back to Coors. Hell, he's only hit 30+ HR twice and he didn't even do it last year.

Good job with the analysis of Holliday in regards to SLG and what not. However, Holliday (after a terribly slow start in OAK) he is slugging .477 since the start of May, with 5hrs. Not freakishly powerful, but better than the Braves have been able to muster. However, you lose me a little bit with your comparison of Holliday and Francoeur. Francoeur did hit 20hr two seasons ago, when he looked like he would be a stalwart in the Braves lineup for the next decade. However, I don't recall too much outcry that Francoeur should be popping 40hrs. I think Francoeur felt like he should be hitting more HRs, so he bulked up on his own. I could be wrong here though... Right now I think the Braves need a LF who can hit 60-70XBH a year while playing plus defense. Again, I should have said 25-30HRs for Holliday, sorry. I went more on his average over the last three seasons (34, 36, 25).


In the end, you want to trade multiple prospects, some who are within 1 or 2 seasons of the majors, for a rental player, who has built a career on inflated numbers, so he may help us in the stretch run. And when we don't sign him, we get an extra 1st-round pick, who won't be anywhere close to the majors for 4-5 years if we're lucky.

In the end, part of me thinks if the Braves want to make a run at the playoffs THIS year, then, yes, sometimes you have to trade prospects (who haven't proven anything on the ML level) for a player who, even with 'inflated' stats, could be penciled in the middle of the Braves lineup and be a huge cog for a playoff run. Now, if the Braves are looking to stay 5-10 games under .500 for this season, then you are absolutely correct. The Braves should NOT trade any prospect and hope they all develop further and can contribute in 2009-2010, if we are lucky.


We had 17 1st-round picks between 1995 and 2005. Only Jason Marquis, Adam Wainwright, Kelly Johnson, Jeff Francouer, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, and Joey Devine have gotten to the majors and stayed there and only 2 of them have done anything for us. 7 have exactly zero major-league days. Hell, if you go back 25 years to 1984, you can't find 5 good major-league players in our 1st round. So how important is a 1st-round pick again?

In a roundabout way, you sort of highlighted my point about draft picks. Stay with me, and I am sure you will disagree me, which is cool, but all of the picks you mentioned proved incredibly valuable for the Braves organization, whether while playing for the Braves or being swapped for key contributors to improve the team:
Marquis: Key contributor in Braves rotation (especially in '01 with his 3.46ERA)
Wainwright: Traded for JD Drew, who without the Braves would not have made the post-season in 2004
Johnson: Key since '05 (except for missing '06)
Franceour: Baby Brave sparked playoff run in '05
Saltalamacchia: Key piece of Tex trade, which should have meant a playoff birth (still trying to figure out how the Braves mucked that up)
Devine: Traded for Kotsay (need player) who was swapped for power hitting prospect Sumoza

Also, baseball, more than any other professional sport, values high ceilings. That's the fun part about baseball, sometimes 'can't miss' prospects miss. Therefore, that is why I (almost) never value a prospect with "exactly zero major-league days" under their belt over the proven player.

And let's not pretend that Holliday is totally a product of Coors Field. Holliday's road OPS numbers from 2006 through 2008 are .819, .860, and .892. That's an average of .857OPS over the last three seasons. Not too shabby. As a point of comparison, across MLB in 2008, the average home OPS was .770 while the average road OPS was .730. So Holliday's OPS was 162 points higher than the average MLer.

Look, is Matt Holliday the perfect answer in LF, probably not. However, he is at least ON the trading block and fills a glaring hole in the Braves lineup and out in the field. Also, Matt Holliday could increase attendance at Turner Field, which could (theoretically) increase payroll flexibility for next season and beyond. Without Holliday (or a player of his caliber), attendance will probably stay historically low, and Liberty Media, being the savvy business corporation they are, will cut the Braves payroll to keep turning a profit.

nps6724
05-27-2009, 05:59 PM
I don't disagree Holliday is good. But the combination of us most likely not being able to sign him and him being a rental, his value being inflated due to Coors, and the amount of talent we'd have to form over just isn't worth it. What Oakland will want will probably resemble what we gave up for Tex and Tex was/is much better than Holliday and we got Tex at a younger age for longer.

littleknighty
05-27-2009, 06:41 PM
I know we need help in the lineup in a bad way. A deal now before the trade market works itself out scares me. If we jump at and overpay for someone now who know who might be available in two weeks. We are two and a half games back right now. Instead of blowing a team away for a trade we need to try and tread water for a couple of weeks with a little in house movement.

DFA Norton, Anderson fills his role, PH 4th OF
Diaz starts everyday in Left
Shaefer to AAA, Barton or Blanco to play Center

Shake things up in house and be patient with giving away prospects.

Thoughts:
Yunel
Kotchman
Frenchy
Chipper
Mac
Diaz
KJ
Barton

I know Frenchy batting third, Im insane but before Chipper and Mac he may get some easier pitches to load up on.

nps6724
05-27-2009, 06:44 PM
I actually like your idea of using GA as the 4th OF/PH. He doesn't SO a lot, he makes solid contact, and while he won't come off the bench and hit a 3-run homer, he can hit a fair amount of doubles and is a smart hitter. And he gives us a LH bat off the bench, which we would lose if Norton is DFA'd.

Spiderman 1nner
05-27-2009, 07:22 PM
Everyone is getting madd hype bout some sports writer talking about deals that should go down... This isn't even a rumor and even if it was, we all saw what happened with our Peavy trade... I think we can even get Holliday without giving up Gorkys.

Morton, Cody Johnson, Francouer, and Logan could probably get it done

We'll have to wait and see though. Doubt this will go anywhere.

bravesfan22193
05-27-2009, 07:26 PM
why does everybody assume we will have to give up a tex package for holliday? Tex had 1 and a half years, holliday has half a year; Oakland has no chance of making the playoffs; they have no chance/intention of making a competitive offer to him; he sucked in april. Yes he's been good, very good in May but April proved what smart people have known for a while, Holliday is not a superstar away from an extreme hitter's park. I think Morton and Locke could get the deal done, Canizares could be used if they want a hitter though they already have cust

nps6724
05-27-2009, 07:31 PM
why does everybody assume we will have to give up a tex package for holliday? Tex had 1 and a half years, holliday has half a year; Oakland has no chance of making the playoffs; they have no chance/intention of making a competitive offer to him; he sucked in april. Yes he's been good, very good in May but April proved what smart people have known for a while, Holliday is not a superstar away from an extreme hitter's park. I think Morton and Locke could get the deal done, Canizares could be used if they want a hitter though they already have cust

A) He will be in demand as the biggest name hitter on the market.
B) Texas had no chance to make the playoffs when they traded Tex either and it didn't hurt them.
C) Holliday sucking in April won't change anyone's mind. Tex hit .231 in April in 2007.

I doubt Oakland would get a deal as good as Texas got, but they will be looking for a similar deal. And someone in contention will pony up. I got money on the Yankees. Their OF is old, oft-injured, and not as good as Holliday defensively or offensively.

bravesfan22193
05-27-2009, 07:43 PM
The Yankees have shown a reluctance to trade big time prospects as of late, another change since the tex trade (the value of prospects has shot throught the roof so to speak) and they get nady back in a week or so. A is a fair point, B is completely different. Texas didn't have to trade Tex at that point they could have waited until the Winter meetings and they never expected to be in contention, Oakland legitimately thought they could compete. C, Tex is known for terrible aprils, Holliday is not. And to add on, just look at what Oakland had to trade to get him when he still had a year on his contract, not much

nps6724
05-27-2009, 07:43 PM
Good points. I guess we'll see.

cntrft76
05-28-2009, 01:13 AM
Comparing what we gave up to get Tex to what someone will have to give up to get Holliday is ridiculous. We got Tex for a season and a half. Holliday will be a half year rental. Tex is also a much better player than Holliday is. Comparing what we got when we traded Tex last year to what Oak will get this year makes more sense to me

jmtapia
05-28-2009, 01:17 AM
no more rentals...lets save our prospects for the next couple years....

nps6724
05-28-2009, 01:22 AM
Comparing what we gave up to get Tex to what someone will have to give up to get Holliday is ridiculous. We got Tex for a season and a half. Holliday will be a half year rental. Tex is also a much better player than Holliday is. Comparing what we got when we traded Tex last year to what Oak will get this year makes more sense to me

That doesn't matter. All that matters is how many teams are vying for him. That will drive up the price.

ATLBravesfan
05-28-2009, 01:51 AM
Our offense needs an over haul. We need an outfield, 1st base, 2nd base, short stop(Yunel is hurt just as often as chipper), 3rd base(only because chipper is DTD through the course of the season and infante is hurt right now) Catcher is our only positive position offensively. And don't tell me that our outfield will be stacked in 3 years because of our farm, we said that 3 years ago.

cntrft76
05-28-2009, 01:53 AM
We can say time will tell but I'm pretty confident that no team is going to be lining up to give up 4 of their top 10 prospects for 2-3 months of Matt Holliday. I don't care how many teams covet him for their OF. I'm actually a Matt Holliday fan but that is ridiculous

ATLBravesfan
05-28-2009, 01:59 AM
We can say time will tell but I'm pretty confident that no team is going to be lining up to give up 4 of their top 10 prospects for 2-3 months of Matt Holliday. I don't care how many teams covet him for their OF. I'm actually a Matt Holliday fan but that is ridiculous

Weren't folks saying that about CC last season? Post season hopes do funny things to GM's

cntrft76
05-28-2009, 02:46 AM
I'm not that familiar with the Brewers farm system but when I looked at Baseball America, LaPorta was the only top prospect given up for CC. The other 3 were low end specs. Definitely not 4 top 10 prospects for 3 months for any player

brewersfan729
05-28-2009, 09:56 AM
Weren't folks saying that about CC last season? Post season hopes do funny things to GM's

The Brewers gave up their #1, #11, #24 and a prospect not even in the top 30 according to Baseball America for Sabathia.

nps6724
05-28-2009, 09:57 AM
Isn't that a pretty good haul for a rental?

Spiderman 1nner
05-28-2009, 11:13 AM
no more rentals...lets save our prospects for the next couple years....

Why would we do that when we have a team that's ready to compete now? Our starting pitching is top 5 in all of baseball and will be even better when Hanson comes up. We are a productive outfielder away from surpassing the Mets and Phils. Right now we are neck and neck with them... Who's to say Holliday won't resign with us if we did get him? The market is so bad, players like Ben Sheets who could have gotten 14 million a year a few years ago remains unsigned. We are loaded with prospects and probably won't have to give up that much to get Holliday. We just got swept by the Giants due to lack of run production and poor bullpen help. Why not address those issues? Our farm system is loaded...

nps6724
05-28-2009, 11:19 AM
Why would we do that when we have a team that's ready to compete now? Our starting pitching is top 5 in all of baseball and will be even better when Hanson comes up. We are a productive outfielder away from surpassing the Mets and Phils. Right now we are neck and neck with them... Who's to say Holliday won't resign with us if we did get him? The market is so bad, players like Ben Sheets who could have gotten 14 million a year a few years ago remains unsigned. We are loaded with prospects and probably won't have to give up that much to get Holliday. We just got swept by the Giants due to lack of run production and poor bullpen help. Why not address those issues? Our farm system is loaded...

Holliday won't sign with us because his agent is Scott Boras and we won't offer him the best deal. Sheets is unsigned due to a screwed up shoulder.

We are NOT loaded with prospects, at least not ones we would part with.

rtgthree
05-28-2009, 12:07 PM
why does everybody assume we will have to give up a tex package for holliday? Tex had 1 and a half years, holliday has half a year; Oakland has no chance of making the playoffs; they have no chance/intention of making a competitive offer to him; he sucked in april. Yes he's been good, very good in May but April proved what smart people have known for a while, Holliday is not a superstar away from an extreme hitter's park. I think Morton and Locke could get the deal done, Canizares could be used if they want a hitter though they already have cust

I don't know who you saw using the Teixeira deal as a template for a potential Holliday trade, but you're right that Oakland will not get the same bounty for Holliday as Texas did for Teixeira. Still, getting Holliday will require at least one top-end prospect, likely Gorkys Hernandez. Toss in two more "good" prospects in addition to the "elite" one, and you'll probably have a deal. Still, is that much even worth it? When it's likely we could get one or more solid (if not superstar) outfielders without sacrificing Gorkys?

Braves_Fan_RSD
05-28-2009, 12:49 PM
I don't know who you saw using the Teixeira deal as a template for a potential Holliday trade, but you're right that Oakland will not get the same bounty for Holliday as Texas did for Teixeira. Still, getting Holliday will require at least one top-end prospect, likely Gorkys Hernandez. Toss in two more "good" prospects in addition to the "elite" one, and you'll probably have a deal. Still, is that much even worth it? When it's likely we could get one or more solid (if not superstar) outfielders without sacrificing Gorkys?

Yes Holiday will cost Hernandez + prospects, it will not cost nearly as much as the Tex deal, but If im going to part with Hernandez I at least want a player who will be here in two years when Hernandez was set to make his debut (i.e. Lee, Berkman, Hawpe.) And yes even if Hawpe is LH im still not opposed to getting him in our line up.

jimmyrudolph76
05-28-2009, 01:16 PM
Since 91? Try 66? Seriously...those outfields included either Aaron or Murph with the exception of 4 years. These guys are a joke. It's ok to have one guy that can't hit the ball out of the park, but 4? If a major change is not made, this season is down the tubes. Then you can look at blowing it up. Lowe, Vazquez, Kawakami, and Anderson could all be moverd to a contender for prospects. This thing has needed to been blown up for 5 years now. There should be no mediocrity in sports. If what you have isn't working, blow it up and rebuild. But don't just keep holding on because you feel obligated to Chipper to field a winner. We could have had Youkalis and Lester for Andruw...but no. We kept him past the 10 year deadline and he was able to veto any deal. I'm not saying do this now, but if we don't go out and get a power bat now, all these pitchers are doing us no good. I say if July rolls around and we're out of it...BLOW IT UP! Look at The Marlins and A's, they've prooven timae and time again that if you're not going to have a 150 million dollar pay roll, that's how you work the system. The longer we hang on to mediocrity, the more steps we're taking back.

BravoFan3736
05-28-2009, 01:59 PM
Since 91? Try 66? Seriously...those outfields included either Aaron or Murph with the exception of 4 years. These guys are a joke. It's ok to have one guy that can't hit the ball out of the park, but 4? If a major change is not made, this season is down the tubes. Then you can look at blowing it up. Lowe, Vazquez, Kawakami, and Anderson could all be moverd to a contender for prospects. This thing has needed to been blown up for 5 years now. There should be no mediocrity in sports. If what you have isn't working, blow it up and rebuild. But don't just keep holding on because you feel obligated to Chipper to field a winner. We could have had Youkalis and Lester for Andruw...but no. We kept him past the 10 year deadline and he was able to veto any deal. I'm not saying do this now, but if we don't go out and get a power bat now, all these pitchers are doing us no good. I say if July rolls around and we're out of it...BLOW IT UP! Look at The Marlins and A's, they've prooven timae and time again that if you're not going to have a 150 million dollar pay roll, that's how you work the system. The longer we hang on to mediocrity, the more steps we're taking back.

Ok I agree that a change needs to be made in getting OF bat but no means FW will BLOW the team up with guys like Hanson/Heyward/Freeman/CJohnson will be ready with 2-3 in which you have current pitching staff locked in for. So you are in the win now mode and need to give FW some time till at least the AS before we start pushing the panick button to do a Holliday trade. I rather look at this longterm than short term, we are at least 2 bats away (Willingham/Luke/JFox/NCruz/RWinn/FLopez) or one BIG bat away (Holliday/Lee/Mags) from contending. Unless Liberty gives a green light to add payroll than we will probably not get the elite RH powerbat and would have to get a RH power potential 20+HR types for much cheaper and then IMO get a leadoff type guy RWinn/FLopez and hope for the best. Atleast we will have enough to make a run with the SP and hope we can get lucky with offense do the stretch.

littleknighty
05-28-2009, 06:52 PM
Im not big on Holliday but from another perspective who else may want him as a rental. Detroit, Boston, The Mets. maybe. Of all the teams who seem to be buyers right now there is not a team where left feild is their biggest problem. We got Kotch and a B level spec for Tex last year. If there is not a Market for him or the other teams that could use him need other pieces he may come cheaper than we think. I thought wed get more for Tex last year

uncblue2332
05-29-2009, 10:38 AM
I really think we can add a OF bat that isnt a rental or Josh Willingham. Another bat from oakland is Jack Cust, the avg is low but he has awesome power. Jose Guillen, only thing is the big contract. Even a guy like Johnny Gomes who has had 20 hr multiple times

rtgthree
05-29-2009, 01:32 PM
^^^I highly doubt that Cust will be available since he remains controllable for the A's. Guillen is an option but I see no way the Braves can pay him. We would wind up overpaying in prospects to get KC to pick up a huge portion of the $12 million tab. And Jonny Gomes? I would much rather have Josh Willingham.

In fact, I think I'd rather have Willingham than any of those three you named.

uncblue2332
05-29-2009, 02:46 PM
^^^I highly doubt that Cust will be available since he remains controllable for the A's. Guillen is an option but I see no way the Braves can pay him. We would wind up overpaying in prospects to get KC to pick up a huge portion of the $12 million tab. And Jonny Gomes? I would much rather have Josh Willingham.

In fact, I think I'd rather have Willingham than any of those three you named.

Well for one we know Oakland is out of the race..so almost everyone is available and cust could be had...he would cost more than willingham but we would get great power and OBP at 375-400 which would be incredible for our outfield.

Jose Guillen, a solid MLB outfielder who is slighty over-paid, we have plenty of starting pitching so we can sacrifice a guy like charlie morton and a jeff locke. If we were to give them a package like that they would pay most of guillens contract and unlike willingham jose guillen hits power consistently seen in his great doubles compared to league average of willingham.

Johnny Gomes, would come incredibly cheap, cheaper than willingham and we wouldnt have to jump the same-division hurdle that would be there. When starting Gomes displayed he was a 20 hr guy. In 350 abs he hit 21, 20, 17 homeruns from 2005-2007. and last year he was hurt and didnt receive but 150 abs and he still hit 8 hr in limited action. Jonny Gomes' stats show he has more power than willingham and he would be cheaper to get plus im not even sure washington wants to get rid of willingham seeing as how lastings milledge is in the minors cause he sucks and willingham has been starting and doing good lately why would they get rid of him. On the other hand gomes is blocked in cincy by Jay Bruce, Willy Tavares, Chris Dickerson, Jerry Hairston Jr, and Lance Nix. They dont need a 6th outfielder that is why he could be had very easily

atl_braves_fan
05-29-2009, 02:57 PM
^^ I am not sure that is true about Oakland. Why would they want to get rid of guys that are cheap and controllable? When you cut your losses on a season, you get rid of guys that are currently expensive and will not likely fit into your future plans (e.g. Matt Holliday). That would be like saying if the Braves are out of it in July, Yunel Escobar and Jordan Schafer would be available. It doesn't work that way.

Lately, Willingham has been getting more ABs because Elijah Dukes is on the DL. When he comes off in a few days, the logjam is right back where it was a few weeks ago. The Nats have very little pitching and a glut of average to slightly above average outfielders. The Braves have have very few outfielders and a glut of average to above average pitchers. That seems ripe for a deal to me.

Also, I am not sure that we want a guy that is the 6th outfielder behind guys like Chris Dickerson, and Laynce Nix. If that really is his position on the depth chart, maybe that should tell us something.

uncblue2332
05-29-2009, 03:09 PM
he really hasnt gotten a fair chance everyone expected him to start when he was signed in cincy but you have to take into account that cincy operates a little differently and they do have DUSTY F^IN BAKER as a manager

rtgthree
05-29-2009, 03:14 PM
Well for one we know Oakland is out of the race..so almost everyone is available and cust could be had...he would cost more than willingham but we would get great power and OBP at 375-400 which would be incredible for our outfield.

Not necessarily. Teams that fire sale don't usually sell pieces that are still cost controllable (which Cust is).


Jose Guillen, a solid MLB outfielder who is slighty over-paid, we have plenty of starting pitching so we can sacrifice a guy like charlie morton and a jeff locke. If we were to give them a package like that they would pay most of guillens contract and unlike willingham jose guillen hits power consistently seen in his great doubles compared to league average of willingham.

I would not trade Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke for Jose Guillen. Guillen is good but not great, comes with a burdensome contract (another $12 million next year, which the Royals won't want to pay for at all even if they do pick up some this year), and he's a headcase to boot.

Last three years:
Guillen .278/.334/.448
Willingham .257/.363/.466

I don't know what all this is about Willingham "league average" and Guillen's doubles, but Willingham hits for more power than Guillen does.


Johnny Gomes, would come incredibly cheap, cheaper than willingham and we wouldnt have to jump the same-division hurdle that would be there. When starting Gomes displayed he was a 20 hr guy. In 350 abs he hit 21, 20, 17 homeruns from 2005-2007. and last year he was hurt and didnt receive but 150 abs and he still hit 8 hr in limited action. Jonny Gomes' stats show he has more power than willingham and he would be cheaper to get plus im not even sure washington wants to get rid of willingham seeing as how lastings milledge is in the minors cause he sucks and willingham has been starting and doing good lately why would they get rid of him. On the other hand gomes is blocked in cincy by Jay Bruce, Willy Tavares, Chris Dickerson, Jerry Hairston Jr, and Lance Nix. They dont need a 6th outfielder that is why he could be had very easily

Gomes is not Cincinnati's "sixth outfielder." He's currently a platoon starter for them, having started three of five games since his call-up (all three vs. left-handed starting pitchers). Gomes has slugged .455 on his career; don't get hung up on his fluke 2005 season. Also, Gomes is a 20-homer guy when starting because he has excellent power against left-handed pitching (.512 career SLG), but doesn't hit righties nearly as well. We have Matt Diaz as our designated lefty-masher...we could use somebody to be an everyday player instead of just a platoon asset.

The Nationals are trying to get rid of Willingham because they aren't trying to contend anymore really, and they would prefer to get prospects and give their young guys a chance in the outfield. If nothing else we know he's available because Nats GM Mike Rizzo came out and said so.

HCo HERO
05-31-2009, 09:43 PM
What ever Wren plan's on doing needs to happen swiftly. While the phillies and mets are unhealthy is the time we should be making a move. If we were to wait til midseason to make a move around the same time one of these teams added an "ace" it would defeat the purpose. But if we had a 15-20 game head start, we could get ahead in the division.

Look what it did for the brewers moving quickly last year with CC. We already have the pitching...which IMO is the harder piece to acquire.