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Sox Appeal
05-19-2009, 02:06 AM
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - LeBron James is the best player in the NBA, surpassing veteran Los Angeles Lakers guard Kobe Bryant, 14-times All-Star guard Jerry West said Monday.

West, a shrewd judge of talent who brought Bryant to the Lakers when he was their general manager, said the Cleveland forward could become the league's next Michael Jordan.

"I look at Cleveland say to myself, 'How many games could they win without LeBron James?' West told Reuters in an interview. "That's how great he is.

"He has a chance to be arguably the greatest player ever to play the game."

"Michael Jordan was the best defensive player in the league but he was also the best offensive player," said West. "It wasn't a one-year fluke, he proved it over time.

"LeBron James will do the same type of things because he's getting better. He's a much more effective shooter. When's he's making his shots from the outside, you can't play him.

"He's just too big, too strong, too quick. And he has incredible body control. But more than that, he's a great team mate. You can see his team mates love him."

"But even though it's hard for me to be objective, because I brought Kobe to Los Angeles, I do think LeBron has surpassed Kobe as a player."

-NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/05/18/sports/sports-us-nba-west.html)

abe_froman
05-19-2009, 02:15 AM
if anybody does its him and think he seriously has the ability to be

Lakersfan2483
05-19-2009, 02:16 AM
It's going to be tough for him to surpass MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bird etc.., but he definitely has an opportunity to be one of the greatest players of all-time. All of those guys accomplished so much that it's going to be a difficult task in terms of overtaking their places in the rankings of great players.

TheBlackHole
05-19-2009, 02:45 AM
He'll need a ring or two to pass Kobe, and the only thing I can see stopping him from being the best is injury. *knock on wood*

Havoc Wreaker
05-19-2009, 03:23 AM
He'll need a ring or two to pass Kobe, and the only thing I can see stopping him from being the best is injury. *knock on wood*

:pity:

GoatMilk
05-19-2009, 03:53 AM
i totally agree with West

once he gets that consistent J, it'll be all up to his teammates to see how many rings he can get.
I mean the greats are only so great. they need help. thats why guys like Wilt, Big O, and Jerry West have only 1 ring, and a whole bunch of others have 0

abe_froman
05-19-2009, 03:58 AM
i totally agree with West

once he gets that consistent J, it'll be all up to his teammates to see how many rings he can get.
I mean the greats are only so great. they need help. thats why guys like Wilt, Big O, and Jerry West have only 1 ring, and a whole bunch of others have 0

wilt has more than 1,but still agree with your point(and why i hate the ring argument as the end all judgment of a player,that some use)

Lakerfan8032
05-19-2009, 04:40 AM
I can't argue with the Logo. LeBron has it all. We'll see.

Hotone1401
05-19-2009, 04:58 AM
Lebron is a very special player. He definitely has a chance but it's it too early to say he'll be better than MJ. He is better than Kobe and that became apparent to me watching the Redeem Team this past summer. The young man has been blessed with every gift you could ask for so would it be shame if he doesn't? I still don't see him getting a ring this season though.

Chronz
05-19-2009, 05:13 AM
Yea its been pretty obvious thus far this year, I was waiting for the playoffs to make my decision but I havent seen anything from Kobe that suggests hes the best in the game anymore, meanwhile Bron is making the playoffs his *****. Then again Bron hasnt been tested so I'll reserve judgement atleast until these Finals play out, but if no team is able to contain Bron then what more does he have to prove. Hes the most unstoppable player in these playoffs, that makes him the best

Faneik
05-19-2009, 07:54 AM
He'll need a ring or two to pass Kobe, and the only thing I can see stopping him from being the best is injury. *knock on wood*

If basketball was an individual sport and Kobe had won his rings by himself I would agree.

But it isn't, so...

Lebron, now, with 0 rings, is better than Kobe imo.

RapOZo
05-19-2009, 08:25 AM
If basketball was an individual sport and Kobe had won his rings by himself I would agree.

But it isn't, so...

Lebron, now, with 0 rings, is better than Kobe imo.

my most hated phrase, "rings by himself"!!!
wtf is that?
who wins rings by himself??
is like even if you are the second best player on the floor the ring doesn't count for you,
if y'all theory is true, and kobe has none, then shaq only has 3
and horry 0...as well as pippen

NoSense
05-19-2009, 08:54 AM
Completely agree with J-West. Kobe is one of the greatest, no doubt about that, but LeBron is still very young, and is achieving at a very high pace (the MVPs...). So as abe froman said, if there could only be one, that would be him for sure...
The main problem I would have it's that to build such a destiny is that the team he'll be winning with, they have to keep it almost the same (as the team MJ played on, Magic and other greats as well). They have to keep that nucleus together. Back in the day, I feel players/GMs had more loyalty to the team and the situation they were in rather than money...I feel this has changed quite a bit, so that could alter James' performance IMHO...

theimortalone
05-19-2009, 10:51 AM
I have to agree with West. Lebron is just that damn good.

JaySmoke
05-19-2009, 10:54 AM
lebron > kobe anyone who thinks different are jelous haters...

the nba is just like the WWE in a way.. they love there superstars :pity:

btw KOBE is a fraud

lakersrock
05-19-2009, 11:25 AM
LeBron isn't better than Kobe until he beats Kobe at everything. He's not a better shooter (and it's not close either), he's not a better man defender, he's really not that better as a weakside defender either (Kobe is a lot smaller and still comes around the same corner and block shots), Kobe's more clutch (so is Melo and a few others) and LeBron hasn't performed on the biggest stage. His team sucked against the best teams this year and when he got to the Finals, the Spurs wiped the floor with him. How you ask? By clogging the lane and letting him shoot jumpers over someone. Until he can routinely hit deep jumpers and be a great on the ball defender, he won't be better than Kobe until he slips. Yes, LeBron is by far the second best player in the league, but until he is better at shooting, defense and winning the biggest games, he won't be #1.

Plus, the only reason West said this now was to piss off Kobe and help him with the killer instinct even though no one else on that team has it.

Hawkeye15
05-19-2009, 11:35 AM
The only people who think Kobe is better than LeBron today, are the Lakers die hard fans. There is no argument that can be made that Kobe is better now. None. LeBron does not have as good of a career, and will need to stay healthy and this productive to pass Kobe, but as of today, right now, LeBron is the best on the planet.
as far as catching MJ, Magic, and Bird for example, that is possible, but many things need to happen. He needs a couple rings, and needs no drop off statistically for another 5 seasons at least.

rhaas74
05-19-2009, 11:36 AM
If Kobe was such a better defender than LeBron, then why was LeBron voted the second best defender in the league behind Howard?

Also LeBron's jumpshot accuracy has increased over the years and keeps getting better.

He also plays with much more heart than Kobe is showing. Kobe just doesn't seem like he cares this playoffs. There is no reason that the Rockets should have taken them to 7, and that rests on Kobe.

One last thing that he is much better at than Kobe, passing. LeBron gets his teammates involved way more than Kobe does. LeBron can go off for 40 points and still ends up getting 10+ assists in the process. He realizes that the team goes through him, but that does not mean he has to score every point.

JordansBulls
05-19-2009, 12:18 PM
Lebron does have a chance, but he has a lot to do. It will be hard to get in that elite group of guys who have both the stats and winning.

lakersrock
05-19-2009, 12:55 PM
If Kobe was such a better defender than LeBron, then why was LeBron voted the second best defender in the league behind Howard?

Also LeBron's jumpshot accuracy has increased over the years and keeps getting better.

He also plays with much more heart than Kobe is showing. Kobe just doesn't seem like he cares this playoffs. There is no reason that the Rockets should have taken them to 7, and that rests on Kobe.

One last thing that he is much better at than Kobe, passing. LeBron gets his teammates involved way more than Kobe does. LeBron can go off for 40 points and still ends up getting 10+ assists in the process. He realizes that the team goes through him, but that does not mean he has to score every point.

Because the voters are on his sack and love stats. If you honestly think LeBron is a better on the ball + weakside defender, you don't know what I'm even talking about. LeBron is a great weakside shot blocker and stealer, but that's about it. On the other hand, Kobe does those AND guards on the ball too.

Yeah, it has and will. Until it's better than Kobe's, Kobe's is better. It's amazing how that works.

Are you kidding? He averaged 27 PPG on 45% FG against one of the best defenders in the league. No heart??? Did you not see him hacked off at all the other players for not playing hard?

LeBron is the PG of his team, Kobe isn't. Just because somebody gets more APG doesn't make them a better passer. For Kobe's position and size disadvantage, I'd say his 5 APG are pretty dang impressive to LeBron's 7. In other words, you're saying Chad Pennington is a better passer than Ronnie Brown. Yeah, Ronnie can and has thrown, but that's not his job. LeBron's job is to pass, Kobe's isn't.

Master Mind
05-19-2009, 01:07 PM
If Kobe was such a better defender than LeBron, then why was LeBron voted the second best defender in the league behind Howard?

Also LeBron's jumpshot accuracy has increased over the years and keeps getting better.

He also plays with much more heart than Kobe is showing. Kobe just doesn't seem like he cares this playoffs. There is no reason that the Rockets should have taken them to 7, and that rests on Kobe.

One last thing that he is much better at than Kobe, passing. LeBron gets his teammates involved way more than Kobe does. LeBron can go off for 40 points and still ends up getting 10+ assists in the process. He realizes that the team goes through him, but that does not mean he has to score every point.

That I didn't understand because D-Wade was better defensively than Lebron this year IMO...

PHX-SOXFAN
05-19-2009, 01:07 PM
I had a feeling the only objections to the logo would come from a few laker homers. Good to see the rest of the lakerfans and other teams fans all agree.:clap: I'll take Jerry West's word, fans, media, and award voting results, all before I acknowledge a few homers who say the same things in every discusion.:clap:

fresh prince
05-19-2009, 01:24 PM
Perfect timing by Jerry!!

If this doesn't fire Kobe and the Lakers up I don't know what else will..

While I agree with Jer..Lebron is the best in the game now.. I'm almost positive he said this as a carrot to dangle in front of Kobe and the Lakers.. Just another brilliant move by Jer

fresh prince
05-19-2009, 01:27 PM
I had a feeling the only objections to the logo would come from a few laker homers. Good to see the rest of the lakerfans and other teams fans all agree.:clap: I'll take Jerry West's word, fans, media, and award voting results, all before I acknowledge a few homers who say the same things in every discusion.:clap:

Jerry has said repeatedly over the past 5 plus years now that Kobe is the best in the game and you weren't in agreement then.

PHX-SOXFAN
05-19-2009, 01:34 PM
Jerry has said repeatedly over the past 5 plus years now that Kobe is the best in the game and you weren't in agreement then.

you will be hard pressed to find a post I made disagreeing with Jerry west on the issue. Pretty sure I didn't even weigh in. thanks for categorizing though.:rolleyes: And as I said, only a few homers in disagreement here.

Master Mind
05-19-2009, 01:35 PM
I am surprised at Jerry West to be honest. To say something like that right before the conference finals is confusing and understandable---You can look at it 2 ways...

1-He's using it as a ploy to fire Kobe up. This will give Kobe more motivation to remind people why he is called the black mamba and ultimately why he is the best player. A motivated Kobe spells doom for the Nuggets.

2-Maybe West is trying to lure Lebron to LA. Come to think about it, it doesn't seem far fetched. Kobe will be a free agent and he's getting older so why not let Kobe walk in efforts of getting LBJ...I mean it's a big market right, Lebron craves the spotlight and what better place than LA considering the history of the franchise and it's big stage.

With that being said Kobe's still better than Lebron ((right now)) and West's statement only can be taken as a reference to the future because LBJ isn't unstoppable, Kobe proved that head to head. I'm not surprised at the lack of disagreement from the statements because the league's been trying to crown a new face of the league since MJ and Kobe squandered that opportunity years ago with the legal matters and his feud with Shaq along with the situation with the organization and his trade demands previously. But let's not act like we don't know that Kobe's still the man; prior to his joining the USA basketball team (redeem team), a Lebron led USA basketball team finished with the bronze medal. Clearly Kobe proved to be more valuable than people thought. Let's not be disrespectful and shun Kobe because Jerry West's statement, the play and the rings speak for itself. When Phil said he would pick D-Howard over LBJ it was an uproar so clearly everyone don't agree.

fresh prince
05-19-2009, 01:35 PM
The only people who think Kobe is better than LeBron today, are the Lakers die hard fans. There is no argument that can be made that Kobe is better now. None. LeBron does not have as good of a career, and will need to stay healthy and this productive to pass Kobe, but as of today, right now, LeBron is the best on the planet.
as far as catching MJ, Magic, and Bird for example, that is possible, but many things need to happen. He needs a couple rings, and needs no drop off statistically for another 5 seasons at least.

I'm as die hard as it gets. But I have to admit Lebron is the better player right now.. But it's still 1a - 1b close to me.

Lebron has the ball in his hands much more than Kobe so you cant base the argument solely off stats. The Cavs offense runs everything through Lebron. Whereas Kobe is simply the main option of the triangle offense. Oftentimes playing off the ball and coming from weak to strong.

But right Now Lebron is just more dominant. He's able to control the game better than anyone in the league right now. He's 1a Kobe is 1b

fresh prince
05-19-2009, 01:41 PM
you will be hard pressed to find a post I made disagreeing with Jerry west on the issue. Pretty sure I didn't even weigh in. thanks for categorizing though.:rolleyes: And as I said, only a few homers in disagreement here.

Come on dude.. I'm not going to search through an archive of your posts from years back... but you and I both know that you loathe Kobe and the Lakers..

I actually agree with Jerry as I stated above. Lebron is the best in the game right now.

Master Mind
05-19-2009, 01:44 PM
I'm as die hard as it gets. But I have to admit Lebron is the better player right now.. But it's still 1a - 1b close to me.

Lebron has the ball in his hands much more than Kobe so you cant base the argument solely off stats. The Cavs offense runs everything through Lebron. Whereas Kobe is simply the main option of the triangle offense. Oftentimes playing off the ball and coming from weak to strong.

But right Now Lebron is just more dominant. He's able to control the game better than anyone in the league right now. He's 1a Kobe is 1b

Jordan was the main option of the triangle offense and he's just the best player of all time :shrug:

But to be honest I still don't see how Lebron is better than Kobe. Most of Lebrons points are in the paint and off fast breaks so yeah he's dominant in the sense that he's big and super athletic but Kobe scores in many fashions. And if someone says Lebron is a better defender than Kobe than they need to be slapped. Right now Kobe is better but the torch will be passed to Lebron as hard as it is to say it---I still feel D-Wade is being overlooked though :eyebrow:

D Blue987
05-19-2009, 01:45 PM
Kobe and Lebron imo are even. Kobe can do anything Lebron can do and vice versa. I think it is unfair to say one is better than the other at this point because they are definately the best 2 in the game. I have to say that a lot of this disdain for Kobe is because of the team he plays for. Fans of other teams want to see other teams beat up on his for that exact reason. Its no mystery, the Lakers are the NYY of basketball and everyone from every other team loves to see them fail. That being said, I think if the Cavs had played in the West Lebron and Co would not have seen the number one seed as well as the MVP trophy. Fans need to consider the competition he played in which was aside from Boston and Orlando this season was none. His stats are inflated for that reason. Remember Kobe went through something similar when he averaged 35 pts in a season and still couldnt granish an mvp trophy. No doubt Lebron is a great player but to put him better than Kobe for sure is an absolute joke at this stage in his career. Win a ship over Kobe and then you can say he is better. The beauty of that is we may get to see who is the best this season in the finals. Cant wait!

Master Mind
05-19-2009, 01:47 PM
Kobe and Lebron imo are even. Kobe can do anything Lebron can do and vice versa. I think it is unfair to say one is better than the other at this point because they are definately the best 2 in the game. I have to say that a lot of this disdain for Kobe is because of the team he plays for. Fans of other teams want to see other teams beat up on his for that exact reason. Its no mystery, the Lakers are the NYY of basketball and everyone from every other team loves to see them fail. That being said, I think if the Cavs had played in the West Lebron and Co would not have seen the number one seed as well as the MVP trophy. Fans need to consider the competition he played in which was aside from Boston and Orlando this season was none. His stats are inflated for that reason. Remember Kobe went through something similar when he averaged 35 pts in a season and still couldnt granish an mvp trophy. No doubt Lebron is a great player but to put him better than Kobe for sure is an absolute joke at this stage in his career. Win a ship over Kobe and then you can say he is better. The beauty of that is we may get to see who is the best this season in the finals. Cant wait!

I'm just curious to know, can Lebron shoot like Kobe? :eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
05-19-2009, 02:05 PM
I'm just curious to know, can Lebron shoot like Kobe? :eyebrow:

I am just curious to know, can Kobe pile drive thru the lane, knocking everything down in sight, and dunk on the center?

Master Mind
05-19-2009, 02:06 PM
I am just curious to know, can Kobe pile drive thru the lane, knocking everything down in sight, and dunk on the center?

Why not?

madiaz3
05-19-2009, 02:09 PM
I am just curious to know, can Kobe pile drive thru the lane, knocking everything down in sight, and dunk on the center?

Yeah.

PHX-SOXFAN
05-19-2009, 02:11 PM
Come on dude.. I'm not going to search through an archive of your posts from years back... but you and I both know that you loathe Kobe and the Lakers..

I actually agree with Jerry as I stated above. Lebron is the best in the game right now.

not at all. I just don't like the actions of overbearing homers and fake players.

Faneik
05-19-2009, 02:19 PM
my most hated phrase, "rings by himself"!!!
wtf is that?
who wins rings by himself??
is like even if you are the second best player on the floor the ring doesn't count for you,
if y'all theory is true, and kobe has none, then shaq only has 3
and horry 0...as well as pippen

What's wrong with you man? Trying to put words in my mouth?...

This is what I said:

"If basketball was an individual sport and Kobe had won his rings by himself I would agree.

But it isn't, so...

Lebron, now, with 0 rings, is better than Kobe imo."

My point: I was saying number of rings shouldn't count when comparing 2 players' talent. Comparing talent and careers are 2 different things.

Today, Lebron is a better player than Kobe. Sorry...

Guess you need a chill pill when someone doesn't ride Kobe's d!ck like you huh?

Hawkeye15
05-19-2009, 02:21 PM
Why not?

and LeBron can hit a jumper. Just not as well as Kobe. Same thing

Master Mind
05-19-2009, 02:24 PM
and LeBron can hit a jumper. Just not as well as Kobe. Same thing

Not the same thing...:eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
05-19-2009, 02:31 PM
Not the same thing...:eyebrow:

why not?? Kobe fans love to point out LeBron's weaknesses. His size and strenght give him tools Kobe couldn't imagine having, so yes, it is the same thing.
Its funny. When Shaq was criticized back in the day, Laker fans were the first ones to defend him for his abilities coming from size and strength, and then turn around and use the argument against LJ. Hmmm

durtee
05-19-2009, 02:33 PM
"If I had to have somebody make a last-second shot, it would be Kobe Bryant," said West

One sentence that was left off of the OP that should be significant.

This is a brilliant move by West. I don't doubt that he believes that Lebron at this point is a better player than Kobe, but I also don't doubt that him saying it publicly was to create a stir and fire up Kobe.

For me, Lebron is well on his way to becoming one of the greatest players ever, but I won't put him in that category or even ahead of Kobe until I see how the rest of these playoffs play out. If he continues to dominate and gets his ring, then I don't see how anyone could not put him ahead of Kobe.

Faneik
05-19-2009, 03:20 PM
One sentence that was left off of the OP that should be significant.

This is a brilliant move by West. I don't doubt that he believes that Lebron at this point is a better player than Kobe, but I also don't doubt that him saying it publicly was to create a stir and fire up Kobe.

For me, Lebron is well on his way to becoming one of the greatest players ever, but I won't put him in that category or even ahead of Kobe until I see how the rest of these playoffs play out. If he continues to dominate and gets his ring, then I don't see how anyone could not put him ahead of Kobe.

:confused:

Was Jerry West comparing Kobe and Lebron's careers? No!

Rings don't mean ***** when you're comparing the TALENT of 2 players.

Comparing players' careers and talent are 2 different things.

Right now, Lebron is a better player than Kobe.

If you read this thread carefully, only Lakers' fans (not all of them) are saying otherwise.

Lol, they even go on saying this is just a Jerry West's mind-game on Kobe.

It's all about Kobe for you guys, huh?

superkegger
05-19-2009, 03:48 PM
Well yeah, he has a chance, but he's got a long way to go, a long way to go to be considered the best ever.

JaySmoke
05-19-2009, 03:54 PM
not the best ever just better than that fraud kobe

TheHoopsProphet
05-19-2009, 04:13 PM
Both have their disadvantages and advantages. Either way, if LeBron isn't the best player in the game already, the time of kobe's clock as best player in the league is ticking away very fast, and nothing can stop it.

sp1derm00
05-19-2009, 04:27 PM
In the span of 48 minutes, Lebron is more consistent and is overall, more dominant throughout. Kobe has spurts of time where he doesn't do anything, and might not even touch the ball. However, Kobe will kill you with bursts of points.

Put it this way. Kobe on his best day would destroy Lebron on his best day. Throughout the course of an average NBA game though, Lebron would influence it more than Kobe would. Kobe would dominate the 4th though.

Against tough opponents, Kobe will show up and it's extremely hard to stop him or slow him down. Lebron is much easier to stop if your team knows how to play good defense. Against weaker opponents, Lebron would dominate while Kobe won't really respect them unless his team is in a hole.

You guys forget about who shows up against good teams. Take a look at their stats game by game. Kobe will outperform Lebron against better, tougher opponents. Lebron dominates against weaker teams.

DrDEADalready
05-19-2009, 04:34 PM
Lebron is hands down. Better at leading his team. Than Kobe is.

CoryFitzgerald
05-19-2009, 04:39 PM
LeBron is good but no outside shot. He only shot 34% from 3 and Michael Jordan is a much better player then he will ever be.

KOBE AND LEBRON SUCK!!!!!!!!!!

WADE SHOULD BE MVP

lakersrock
05-19-2009, 04:44 PM
If LeBron is so much better, why did Kobe completely shut him down in two games this year? If I remember correctly he went like 11-45 against Kobe as the main defender. Kobe understands to keep LeBron out of the lane and make him shoot contested jumpers. He won't hit. That's the biggest difference in the two. Kobe wants to man up against the star on defense, LeBron wants no part of that. Also, when the lane gets blocked off, Kobe can routinely hit shots, LeBron can't. Then the last point, look how bad LeBron is and how much better Kobe is against the best teams.

PHX-SOXFAN
05-19-2009, 04:54 PM
If LeBron is so much better, why did Kobe completely shut him down in two games this year? If I remember correctly he went like 11-45 against Kobe as the main defender. Kobe understands to keep LeBron out of the lane and make him shoot contested jumpers. He won't hit. That's the biggest difference in the two. Kobe wants to man up against the star on defense, LeBron wants no part of that. Also, when the lane gets blocked off, Kobe can routinely hit shots, LeBron can't. Then the last point, look how bad LeBron is and how much better Kobe is against the best teams.

kobe didn't guard lebron 1 on 1 in either game this year. the first game he started on him but had tons of help. the second game kobe was sick and odom mainly guarded him. check your facts before you go with another homer answer

Sox Appeal
05-19-2009, 04:54 PM
LeBron isn't better than Kobe until he beats Kobe at everything. He's not a better shooter (and it's not close either), he's not a better man defender, he's really not that better as a weakside defender either (Kobe is a lot smaller and still comes around the same corner and block shots), Kobe's more clutch (so is Melo and a few others) and LeBron hasn't performed on the biggest stage. His team sucked against the best teams this year and when he got to the Finals, the Spurs wiped the floor with him. How you ask? By clogging the lane and letting him shoot jumpers over someone. Until he can routinely hit deep jumpers and be a great on the ball defender, he won't be better than Kobe until he slips. Yes, LeBron is by far the second best player in the league, but until he is better at shooting, defense and winning the biggest games, he won't be #1.

Plus, the only reason West said this now was to piss off Kobe and help him with the killer instinct even though no one else on that team has it.

Not even close. :laugh2:

LeBron's clutch stats: PPG: 55.9 REB: 14.3 AST: 12.6 BLK: 1.7 STL: 3.5 FG%: .556 3PT%: .421 FGa (Field Goals attempted): 31.2 FT%: 85

Kobe's clutch stats: PPG: 56.7 REB: 8.4 AST: 5.7 BLK: 0.0 STL: 1.0 FG%: .457 3PT%: .400 FGa (Field Goals attempted): 39.1 FT%: 92

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

So with the exception of PPG, and FT shooting, LeBron has the edge over Kobe in all other statistical category's. Kobe is also taking 7.9 more shots per clutch situation then is LeBron. If you would give [LeBron] those shot attempts, he would most likely be averaging somewhere around 70.0 PPG.

LeBron in the clutch > Kobe in the clutch

Sox Appeal
05-19-2009, 04:57 PM
If LeBron is so much better, why did Kobe completely shut him down in two games this year? If I remember correctly he went like 11-45 against Kobe as the main defender. Kobe understands to keep LeBron out of the lane and make him shoot contested jumpers. He won't hit. That's the biggest difference in the two. Kobe wants to man up against the star on defense, LeBron wants no part of that. Also, when the lane gets blocked off, Kobe can routinely hit shots, LeBron can't. Then the last point, look how bad LeBron is and how much better Kobe is against the best teams.

LeBron is the best player in the league when he goes up against worst of the worst teams, and the best of the best. Don't believe me? We'll lets take a look at Kobe and LeBron's stats against good teams.

LeBron: PPG: 27.9 REB: 8.6 AST: 7.4 BLK: 0.8 STL: 1.9 FG%: .468

Kobe: PPG: 28.6 REB: 5.7 AST: 5.0 BLK: 0.6 STL: 1.1 FG%: .469

http://www.82games.com/0809/COM1S11.HTM

Lebron against good teams > Kobe against good teams

madiaz3
05-19-2009, 05:02 PM
Not even close. :laugh2:

LeBron's clutch stats: PPG: 55.9 REB: 14.3 AST: 12.6 BLK: 1.7 STL: 3.5 FG%: .556 3PT%: .421 FGa (Field Goals attempted): 31.2 FT%: 85

Kobe's clutch stats: PPG: 56.7 REB: 8.4 AST: 5.7 BLK: 0.0 STL: 1.0 FG%: .457 3PT%: .400 FGa (Field Goals attempted): 39.1 FT%: 92

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

So with the exception of PPG, and FT shooting, LeBron has the edge over Kobe in all other statistical category's. Kobe is also taking 7.9 more shots per clutch situation then is LeBron. If you would give [LeBron] those shot attempts, he would most likely be averaging somewhere around 70.0 PPG.

LeBron in the clutch > Kobe in the clutch

Yes, because he'd make all of those extra shots right? That analysis of clutch shots is subjective, and guess what, it's possible to be clutch defensively too, but 82games stats aren't going to tell you that. You know what's clutch by watching the game not looking at a compilation of stats.

Though if you do want to go by that definition, I'd say this falls into the category.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LiSUNTJqrQ

ATL_Representa
05-19-2009, 05:11 PM
Kobe Bryant and Jerry West are Real close friends, They stay in touch..Jerry west is also a former laker himself..See alot of people cannot read between the lines..Think about it...Jerry is doing this 2 send a statement 2 kobe because everybody is now jumping on denvers bandwagon..Believe what you want but he knows what hes doin..And bottomline 2 the situation lebron is not better than kobe right now..Couple years from now who knows but right now the bottom line is

"LeBron James is the MVP; Kobe Bryant is the better player.

Both are lockdown defenders, fantastic passers, capable of scoring or facilitating and excellent leaders of their teams. The primary differences lie in each player's individual offensive repertoires, and the key here is the versatility, polish, and completeness of each player's game.

LeBron James is a player with one primary, ultradeveloped offensive skill: his ability to get to the hoop for layups and dunks. At the same time, there are several areas that he has yet to develop. He has improved his 3-point and free throw shooting this year, but even so, both are average at best. He has no midrange jumper, he doesn't use screens effectively, and his post game is suspect. His athleticism and quickness are his primary tools, and his footwork at this point is still fairly rudimentary -- which, in part, explains why he's not better in the post. (Imagine what a player of his size, strength, and athleticism could do in the post with Kobe's footwork!)

Kobe Bryant doesn't have a single dominant skill that far outweighs all others, like LeBron does. Instead, he has the most complete, versatile, and polished skill set in the NBA. Pull-up jumper, leaner, runner, floater, fadeaway, fallaway, midrange, long-range, close-range, pump fake, jab step, up-and-under, dunk, layup, left hand, right hand, face-up, post-up, driving, elevating, strength, savvy, power, finesse, balance, body control, footwork. Bryant can do it all. His footwork, in particular, is unparalleled, and because of it, he is extremely effective in the post, making easy work of smaller players and even taking advantage of larger players without the fundamental skill set to compete with his own.

Simply put, the difference between the two boils down to unprecedented raw athleticism versus unequaled, finely honed skill. "

Verbal Christ
05-19-2009, 05:13 PM
kobe has the benefit of playing with another all nba guy in gasol, and arguably the deepest team in the league, and yet lebron gets the most out of all the blue collar guys on his squad, making them all better, isnt that the tell-tale sign of greatness, while kobe might be clutch, without shaq he hasnt done much, and lebron is on his way to a second finals appearance with a bunch of 'scrubs' ala jordan.

lebron>>>kobe

dawkinit
05-19-2009, 05:19 PM
^ agreed.

if you really need an answer to the debate, look no further than player age. we are already saying lebron is better and kobe came into the league well before lebron... so yeah if its like this now, how about when lebron is kobes age? yeah lebron is better.

AIverson
05-19-2009, 05:26 PM
When did the criteria for best player suddenly become 'volume shooting two-guard who has break out games every now and then'?

Claiming Kobe is the best player is just as bad as claiming AI was the best player back in the 01 days.

Lebron is obviously better, but I would take a prime Shaq or Hakeen over both of these guy's.

sp1derm00
05-19-2009, 05:36 PM
LeBron is the best player in the league when he goes up against worst of the worst teams, and the best of the best. Don't believe me? We'll lets take a look at Kobe and LeBron's stats against good teams.

LeBron: PPG: 27.9 REB: 8.6 AST: 7.4 BLK: 0.8 STL: 1.9 FG%: .468

Kobe: PPG: 28.6 REB: 5.7 AST: 5.0 BLK: 0.6 STL: 1.1 FG%: .469

http://www.82games.com/0809/COM1S11.HTM

Lebron against good teams > Kobe against good teams

Right... that, again is a generalization. Good teams could include anyone from the Suns to the Rockets.

I'm talking about the tough, contending teams... or the teams equipped to go far into the playoffs such as Boston, Orlando, Denver, Houston... the teams that are good defensively and actually have a chance at winning the title.

Bottom line is, Kobe showed up to play against these teams and Lebron didn't.

sp1derm00
05-19-2009, 05:38 PM
When did the criteria for best player suddenly become 'volume shooting two-guard who has break out games every now and then'?

Claiming Kobe is the best player is just as bad as claiming AI was the best player back in the 01 days.

Lebron is obviously better, but I would take a prime Shaq or Hakeen over both of these guy's.

Anyone would take Shaq, Hakeem, or Duncan over Lebron/Kobe. Dwight is different. He's a statistical beast, but he's not clutch and he doesn't take over games like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem can.


I would probably take Lebron and Kobe over Dwight. If Wade never had any major injury problems, i'd take him over Dwight as well.

ATL_Representa
05-19-2009, 05:51 PM
If the lakers were in the eastern confence they wouldve won 70 games..If the cavs were in the western conference they would've struggle to be a 3 seed..The western conference is capable of having nine 50 win teams while the east is capable of producing 4..I feel like im debating with nothing but nerds who do not have the ability to read between the linesand struggle to keep it real with themselves..Its quite amusing how you say lebron is better than another player who is offensively miles ahead of him and who is flat out better defensively also..He has not post up game,mid range and 3 point shot is also suspect and his footwork is nowhere near kobe bryants..Lebron hasnt proved nothing in clutch time and will fold once again this year also..You people need 2 speak what you know and not what you hear and face reality..Lebron is not better and his team is not a bunch of scrubs either..Compare the 2 teams player by player position by position and you will see that the teams match up pretty well..Question 4 ya...10 seconds left in the game..Who you giving the rock 2, Kobe or lebron??..Debate over..Keep it real!!


Kobe has no weaknesses while lebron has a few..If you say lebron is better than kobe right now all i can say is get ya basketball iq up..

jskeet23
05-19-2009, 06:00 PM
lebron will never be better than kobe or never come close to mj we are talkin about 6,9 260 at 24 so when he hit 30 is he goin to be in the same shape as kobe no i dont think so only reason west said that is to get the best out of kobe and im not a laker fan by the way the leauge already doin all this promotion on kobe lebron so you know the refs are goin to be hard on magic and denver i just dont see how people say the cavs are goin to beat the magic after the last time they met it was a blow out then in their house they won by a 3 second in the key call and ealier in the year lebron went 5 for 27 in the field another blow out the nba just like boxing

jwm923
05-19-2009, 06:02 PM
Lebron is the biggest offensive threat in the league. Kobe is still the best overall player. Again this just my opinoin, but I decide the best player by who I would want and trust taking a buzzer beater shot. Kobe is still that guy. He is smart and clutch. His game is based on skill.

Lebron's game is based primarily off of athletic ability. It is his combination of size, speed, and body controll that allows him to dominate offensively. I have yet to see him develope a wide variety of offensive skills. By this meaning his jumpshot is inconsistent, he does not have a fade-away, he does not post. He is still a streaky shooter. His shot percentage may look good but that is due mainly to where he takes his shots. I once saw a statistic of his shot percentage both outside and inside of 15 ft. Huge differance. As Lebron ages his physical skills will decline as all players do. It happened to Jordan, happening to Kobe. But what they did was evolve their game to accomodate what they can do. At some point Lebron will have to do this and while he is still young, I have yet to see any signs of that.

jskeet23
05-19-2009, 06:07 PM
hes goin to put on weight as age comes just like wilkins kemp so no mj no kobe hes what we call short term and if he cant play wit a jam thum i hate to see him come back from a wade or tmac injury

lakersrock
05-19-2009, 06:21 PM
Kobe Bryant and Jerry West are Real close friends, They stay in touch..Jerry west is also a former laker himself..See alot of people cannot read between the lines..Think about it...Jerry is doing this 2 send a statement 2 kobe because everybody is now jumping on denvers bandwagon..Believe what you want but he knows what hes doin..And bottomline 2 the situation lebron is not better than kobe right now..Couple years from now who knows but right now the bottom line is

"LeBron James is the MVP; Kobe Bryant is the better player.

Both are lockdown defenders, fantastic passers, capable of scoring or facilitating and excellent leaders of their teams. The primary differences lie in each player's individual offensive repertoires, and the key here is the versatility, polish, and completeness of each player's game.

LeBron James is a player with one primary, ultradeveloped offensive skill: his ability to get to the hoop for layups and dunks. At the same time, there are several areas that he has yet to develop. He has improved his 3-point and free throw shooting this year, but even so, both are average at best. He has no midrange jumper, he doesn't use screens effectively, and his post game is suspect. His athleticism and quickness are his primary tools, and his footwork at this point is still fairly rudimentary -- which, in part, explains why he's not better in the post. (Imagine what a player of his size, strength, and athleticism could do in the post with Kobe's footwork!)

Kobe Bryant doesn't have a single dominant skill that far outweighs all others, like LeBron does. Instead, he has the most complete, versatile, and polished skill set in the NBA. Pull-up jumper, leaner, runner, floater, fadeaway, fallaway, midrange, long-range, close-range, pump fake, jab step, up-and-under, dunk, layup, left hand, right hand, face-up, post-up, driving, elevating, strength, savvy, power, finesse, balance, body control, footwork. Bryant can do it all. His footwork, in particular, is unparalleled, and because of it, he is extremely effective in the post, making easy work of smaller players and even taking advantage of larger players without the fundamental skill set to compete with his own.

Simply put, the difference between the two boils down to unprecedented raw athleticism versus unequaled, finely honed skill. "

Which is why he better get better quick. He won't have those athletic abilities forever. Kobe has busted his butt since he was a rookie to improve his game, not rely on his athletic abilities. Now that his body is starting to fade, he's still the best offensive weapon in the NBA. LeBron MUST learn to shoot the 3, midrange and use better footwork in the post. That said, when his abilities go, so do their chances at a title. They're built around him driving and kicking. When he isn't a freak anymore, he'll have to go to the role Kobe has now. Then again....that brings up the fact he really sucks at shooting and fundamentals. I've been saying for three years LeBron is the best athlete in the NBA and Kobe is the best basketball player. If anyone is goofy enough to argue that, they're crazy. His skillset is one of the best the league has ever seen. Wade and Melo are so much closer to Kobe in that regard it isn't even funny. In the end, LeBron won't be the best ever. His greatest strength will end up being his greatest weakness. He's too busy dominating and making money to work Kobe hard on his game. When his body slips down a little, it'll be too late to start. That's a long post, but it's so common sense.

lakersrock
05-19-2009, 06:23 PM
Lebron is the biggest offensive threat in the league. Kobe is still the best overall player. Again this just my opinoin, but I decide the best player by who I would want and trust taking a buzzer beater shot. Kobe is still that guy. He is smart and clutch. His game is based on skill.

Lebron's game is based primarily off of athletic ability. It is his combination of size, speed, and body controll that allows him to dominate offensively. I have yet to see him develope a wide variety of offensive skills. By this meaning his jumpshot is inconsistent, he does not have a fade-away, he does not post. He is still a streaky shooter. His shot percentage may look good but that is due mainly to where he takes his shots. I once saw a statistic of his shot percentage both outside and inside of 15 ft. Huge differance. As Lebron ages his physical skills will decline as all players do. It happened to Jordan, happening to Kobe. But what they did was evolve their game to accomodate what they can do. At some point Lebron will have to do this and while he is still young, I have yet to see any signs of that.

LeBron isn't the biggest offensive threat. If you clog the lane, he has to shoot or pass. Either one takes away his ability to score.

I have to agree on the last part though. He needs to work on those skills now or he's screwed. Kobe busts his butt every single day during the summer and now that his body is getting older, it's showing the results.

mister freeze
05-19-2009, 06:29 PM
Kobe is better now.......The debate in a year or two will be between Lebron or D-Wade

jskeet23
05-19-2009, 06:44 PM
Kobe is better now.......The debate in a year or two will be between Lebron or D-Wade

dwade by far trust me on this keep sleeping on him like the nba always do

jskeet23
05-19-2009, 06:45 PM
why isnt dwayne wade in this he can do the same thing kobe and lebron

MTar786
05-19-2009, 06:45 PM
i cant stand peoples bias towards 'their guy'.. lets just be honest now.. seriously

kobe
he has a better jumper than lebron
he is more clutch than lebron
better on ball defense than lebron
more ball handling and speed than lebron
more will than lebron
better post player than lebron

Lebron
drives in better than kobe (or anyone in history for that matter)
better off ball defense than kobe
plays smarter ball nows days than kobe
stronger than kobe
better passer

Dwade
better jumper than lebron but not kobe
better on AND off ball defense than both players
drives in better than kobe
faster than kobe
passes better than both players
more injury prone than both
just as much heart as both
worse in every other category than either

In my opinion lebron and kobe should be considered equals for now 1a and 1b UNTILL the finals are over
wade is number 2

IMO i think kobe's best season was better than lebrons best season

IMO i think lebron gets inflated stats by the nba and even if he didnt. with that body u gotta expect 8 rebs from the guy and 28 points as a superstar.. i feel his assists are given to him at times. I also feel Lebron never gets called for fouls but gets sent to the line for free a lot by the refs.
Dont get me wrong.. i still think he'd get to the line more than kobe even without refs because He drives in more. kobe doesnt drive the lane like he used to.
wade is very under rated in my opinion too.. does anyone agree with everything i just said??

mister freeze
05-19-2009, 06:47 PM
dwade by far trust me on this keep sleeping on him like the nba always do

Yeah I don't understand why they keep overlooking D-Wade, it's absurd...

mister freeze
05-19-2009, 06:50 PM
i cant stand peoples bias towards 'their guy'.. lets just be honest now.. seriously

kobe
he has a better jumper than lebron
he is more clutch than lebron
better on ball defense than lebron
more ball handling and speed than lebron
more will than lebron

Lebron
drives in better than kobe (or anyone in history for that matter)
better off ball defense than kobe
plays smarter ball nows days than kobe
stronger than kobe
better passer

Dwade
better jumper than lebron but not kobe
better on AND off ball defense than both players
drives in better than kobe
faster than kobe
passes better than both players
more injury prone than both
just as much heart as both
worse in every other category than either

In my opinion lebron and kobe should be considered equals for now 1a and 1b UNTILL the finals are over
wade is number 2

IMO i think kobe's best season was better than lebrons best season

IMO i think lebron gets inflated stats by the nba and even if he didnt. with that body u gotta expect 8 rebs from the guy and 28 points as a superstar.. i feel his assists are given to him at times. I also feel Lebron never gets called for fouls but gets sent to the line for free a lot by the refs.
Dont get me wrong.. i still think he'd get to the line more than kobe even without refs because He drives in more. kobe doesnt drive the lane like he used to.
wade is very under rated in my opinion too.. does anyone agree with everything i just said??

D-Wade is also a better slasher than both. He's a better clutch player than Lebron but Kobe still holds the reign.

Hawkeye15
05-19-2009, 06:56 PM
Lebron is the biggest offensive threat in the league. Kobe is still the best overall player. Again this just my opinoin, but I decide the best player by who I would want and trust taking a buzzer beater shot. Kobe is still that guy. He is smart and clutch. His game is based on skill.

Lebron's game is based primarily off of athletic ability. It is his combination of size, speed, and body controll that allows him to dominate offensively. I have yet to see him develope a wide variety of offensive skills. By this meaning his jumpshot is inconsistent, he does not have a fade-away, he does not post. He is still a streaky shooter. His shot percentage may look good but that is due mainly to where he takes his shots. I once saw a statistic of his shot percentage both outside and inside of 15 ft. Huge differance. As Lebron ages his physical skills will decline as all players do. It happened to Jordan, happening to Kobe. But what they did was evolve their game to accomodate what they can do. At some point Lebron will have to do this and while he is still young, I have yet to see any signs of that.

then Kobe is NOT the player you want. Outlaw is.
and the argument about LeBron just using size and strength was what people used against Shaq. I don't really care how you get 29/7/7, you are getting them. And I bet that when LeBron is 30, you will see him living on the post.

Hawkeye15
05-19-2009, 06:58 PM
LeBron isn't the biggest offensive threat. If you clog the lane, he has to shoot or pass. Either one takes away his ability to score.

I have to agree on the last part though. He needs to work on those skills now or he's screwed. Kobe busts his butt every single day during the summer and now that his body is getting older, it's showing the results.

after reading all you're posts, I wonder if you have to pause the Kobe highlights on youtube to respond. It is unreal. It is not possible for you to look withouth bias at LeBron. Eh, whatever.

The_Mac22
05-19-2009, 07:13 PM
Lebron > D wade > Kobe

ATL_Representa
05-19-2009, 07:13 PM
then Kobe is NOT the player you want. Outlaw is.
and the argument about LeBron just using size and strength was what people used against Shaq. I don't really care how you get 29/7/7, you are getting them. And I bet that when LeBron is 30, you will see him living on the post.


Hawkeye dont talk out the side of your neck homeboy, What you just said made you look like you know nothing about the game of basketball!!!!

AIverson
05-19-2009, 07:13 PM
Anyone would take Shaq, Hakeem, or Duncan over Lebron/Kobe. Dwight is different. He's a statistical beast, but he's not clutch and he doesn't take over games like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem can.


I would probably take Lebron and Kobe over Dwight. If Wade never had any major injury problems, i'd take him over Dwight as well.

I would take Lebron over Dwight, too, but give me Dwight over Kobe or Wade any day. Dwight is a franchise player because of his rebounding and defense. You can build a top-tier defensive team around this guy, and defense is going to win you championships. He's also giving your team a lot of extra possesions and 20 points in the paint to top it off.

I would like to build my team around the 20/15 defensive player of the year Center rather than some shooting guard.

You can't build a team around players like Wade, Iverson or Kobe. Those are players that you put on a already contending to team to make them a championship team -- they're complimentary players, not franchise players.

I think most coaches and GM's understand this, but they're too busy trying to sell tickets and jerseys with these volume scorers.

I see the best players in the league right now in this order:

1.)Lebron James
2.)Chris Paul
3.)Dwight Howard
-------------------------

Those are the franchise players, then there's a drop off.

4.)Wade
5.)Tie between Kobe and Deron Williams. My gut tells me Williams is better, but Kobe could help a lot of teams. It's a toss up, really, but I would personally take Williams.

mister freeze
05-19-2009, 07:15 PM
I would take Lebron over Dwight, too, but give me Dwight over Kobe or Wade any day. Dwight is a franchise player because of his rebounding and defense. You can build a top-tier defensive team around this guy, and defense is going to win you championships. He's also giving your team a lot of extra possesions and 20 points in the paint to top it off.

I would like to build my team around the 20/15 defensive player of the year Center rather than some shooting guard.

You can't build a team around players like Wade, Iverson or Kobe. Those are players that you put on a already contending to team to make them a championship team -- they're complimentary players, not franchise players.

I think most coaches and GM's understand this, but they're too busy trying to sell tickets and jerseys with these volume scorers.

I see the best players in the league right now in this order:

1.)Lebron James
2.)Chris Paul
3.)Dwight Howard
-------------------------

Those are the franchise players, then there's a drop off.

4.)Wade
5.)Tie between Kobe and Deron Williams. My gut tells me Williams is better, but Kobe could help a lot of teams. It's a toss up, really, but I would personally take Williams.

Just stop posting :pity:

jskeet23
05-19-2009, 07:21 PM
Yeah I don't understand why they keep overlooking D-Wade, it's absurd...
i dont know if wade signs wit jumpman he will out sell kobe and lebron shoes hes just that guy in my eyes he gets no respect to be 6,4 all these nike bois in the summer them wining the gold was because of wade but you only here lebron kobe its bad its all about money but wade will prove people wrong

Kakaroach
05-19-2009, 07:23 PM
As much as I hate Kobe, I don't think LeBron has quite passed him yet. He might if he wins the title this year though.

Master Mind
05-19-2009, 07:24 PM
i dont know if wade signs wit jumpman he will out sell kobe and lebron shoes hes just that guy in my eyes he gets no respect to be 6,4 all these nike bois in the summer them wining the gold was because of wade but you only here lebron kobe its bad its all about money but wade will prove people wrong

Wow me and my friends were just talking about that, if D-Wade was with Nike he would have been marketed way more thus being mentioned in these discussion from the exposure

KW93KB24
05-19-2009, 07:49 PM
LOL Lebrick better than kobe? lets look at their head to head matchups this year

Lebron @ LA
9-25, 1 steal, 1 block, 4 assist, 23 points. game result is a LOSS

LA @ Lebron
5-20, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 9 assist, 16 points, game result is a LOSS

Kobe bryant
LA @ CLE
8-17, 19 points, 1 steal, 4 assist , game result is a WIN (and played while throwing up in the sidelines)

CLE @ LA
9-22, 1 steal, 1 block, 12 assist, 23 points, game result is a WIN ( also played with a messed up pinkie that got hurt because of Lebron) SO DONT BE BIASED AND LOOK AT WHO IS REALLY BETTER, AND THAT IS KOBE BEAN BRYANT. PLEASE DONT EVER PUT LEBRON'S NAME IN THE SAME SENTENCE AS KOBE, THANK YOU.

td0tsfinest
05-19-2009, 08:19 PM
he came into the league with that hype and so far he's on pace, IMO anyways.

Its absolutely insane that this is guy is only 24 years old. As far as we know, he hasn't even hit his prime.

ATL_Representa
05-19-2009, 08:40 PM
I would take Lebron over Dwight, too, but give me Dwight over Kobe or Wade any day. Dwight is a franchise player because of his rebounding and defense. You can build a top-tier defensive team around this guy, and defense is going to win you championships. He's also giving your team a lot of extra possesions and 20 points in the paint to top it off.

I would like to build my team around the 20/15 defensive player of the year Center rather than some shooting guard.

You can't build a team around players like Wade, Iverson or Kobe. Those are players that you put on a already contending to team to make them a championship team -- they're complimentary players, not franchise players.

I think most coaches and GM's understand this, but they're too busy trying to sell tickets and jerseys with these volume scorers.

I see the best players in the league right now in this order:

1.)Lebron James
2.)Chris Paul
3.)Dwight Howard
-------------------------

Those are the franchise players, then there's a drop off.

4.)Wade
5.)Tie between Kobe and Deron Williams. My gut tells me Williams is better, but Kobe could help a lot of teams. It's a toss up, really, but I would personally take Williams.



lmao you gotta love the kids..how old are u lil man??

sphinxvc
05-19-2009, 08:49 PM
Never better than Michael Jordan. You can call him best ever in the David Stern NBA, the new rules are built for players like him. They need to retire the number 23 for Jordan from every NBA team and end this nonsense. Like they did for Wayne Gretzky.

dre1990
05-19-2009, 08:59 PM
He has a chance 2.....

Lebron23
05-19-2009, 09:03 PM
He's clearly better than the guy, who has Zero NBA Finals MVP. I hope LeBron wins his first NBA Championship this year, and all of the haters should STFU.

durtee
05-19-2009, 09:20 PM
:confused:

Was Jerry West comparing Kobe and Lebron's careers? No!

Rings don't mean ***** when you're comparing the TALENT of 2 players.

Comparing players' careers and talent are 2 different things.

Right now, Lebron is a better player than Kobe.

If you read this thread carefully, only Lakers' fans (not all of them) are saying otherwise.

Lol, they even go on saying this is just a Jerry West's mind-game on Kobe.

It's all about Kobe for you guys, huh?

Who's you guys? Am I a Laker fan? Even though my sig clearly shows that I am a Pistons fan. :rolleyes: You don't read very well do ya? Your opinion is that Lebron is a better player than Kobe and some others would disagree. Guess what? There is a reason why threads about Kobe and Lebron go on for weeks, because they are both so close to each other and are both such great players that it creates a strong opinionated debate.

To me being a better player is not about talent or size, it's about who can win me one game that I need to win and right now that guy is Kobe. Maybe I will change my mind soon, we will have to wait and see.

Verbal Christ
05-19-2009, 10:24 PM
Bottom line is lebron makes everyone on his team better. Kobe post shaq scrub teams did nothing until adding another legit all star in gasol while lebron makes average players look like all stars. Lebron is almost averaging a triple double that's insane if you think about it. If he had kobes mindset to score guy would be near 40 a game.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 01:00 AM
Bottom line is lebron makes everyone on his team better. Kobe post shaq scrub teams did nothing until adding another legit all star in gasol while lebron makes average players look like all stars. Lebron is almost averaging a triple double that's insane if you think about it. If he had kobes mindset to score guy would be near 40 a game.

Uh, Lebron's been playing with Big Z... an all-star. Now he has Mo Williams.

Kobe played with Odom, not quite an all-star. Now he has Pau and look where he's at. Also, please don't say anything about who has had the better squads the past few years. When you have Smush, Kwame, Cook, and Luke rotating in as starters, your team needs help.

Verbal Christ
05-20-2009, 08:50 AM
Uh, Lebron's been playing with Big Z... an all-star. Now he has Mo Williams.

Kobe played with Odom, not quite an all-star. Now he has Pau and look where he's at. Also, please don't say anything about who has had the better squads the past few years. When you have Smush, Kwame, Cook, and Luke rotating in as starters, your team needs help.

You are actually making my point for me. MO and Z were not perennial allstars before lebron showed up while gasol was before he hit LA. If odom was in the east he would probably be an allstar as well. Kobe might be the best 1 on 1 talent but this is a team game and lebron is doing more with a lot less.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 10:07 AM
You are actually making my point for me. MO and Z were not perennial allstars before lebron showed up while gasol was before he hit LA. If odom was in the east he would probably be an allstar as well. Kobe might be the best 1 on 1 talent but this is a team game and lebron is doing more with a lot less.

Wow. I don't know how seriously I should even take you when you are arguing about something you obviously know nothing about.

Big Z was an All-Star in the 2002-03' season, one season before Lebron was even in the league. If you can credit Lebron with taking Big Z into the All-Star game after that, you've got a serious man-crush on Lebron.

Also, if you can credit Mo William's success to Lebron as well, I'm going to credit Pau's return to All-Stardom to Kobe. Gasol never returned to the All-Star game without Kobe.

And no, one appearance as an All-Star does not make you a "perennial" All-Star.

We're back at square one, except Kobe have proven he can take a Laker squad without another All-Star and with the likes of Smush, Kwame, Luke, and Brian Cook to the playoffs and almost knock out a 50+ win team by himself.

So yah... Lebron had a player on his squad that was a two-time All-Star and couldn't do anything worthwhile in an Eastern Conference that was at the time, lacking.

Kobe was given an almost All-Star and some D-leaguers and almost took down the Suns in a tough Western Conference.

Let's also take a look at how players have fared after becoming a Laker. Trevor Ariza, as a Knick and a Magic, he wasn't anything special. The moment he stepped on the court with Kobe, he's been making a huge splash across the NBA. Pau Gasol, one time All-Star, has now returned to All-Stardom "because of Kobe" (not really, bit if you can credit Lebron with Big Z's 2nd All-Star bid, I can say this with EASE". Shannon Brown went from not being heard about, to a consistent option at PG.

Let's now take a look at how players have fared without Kobe. Smush went from a starter to nothing. The HEAT who have needed a PG for a long time, wouldn't even have Smush coming off the bench as a legit option until they shut down Wade.

Kwame... Memphis didn't even want to play this guy, and Detroit this season has blown balls. Oh, they started Kwame a few games and he's sucked.

Brian Cook. I will leave it at that, his name.

Just as I will leave it to you how Lebron made Big Z a perennial All-Star when Big Z hasn't made any appearances as an All-Star since Lebron actually started being "good".

JordansBulls
05-20-2009, 11:15 AM
LOL Lebrick better than kobe? lets look at their head to head matchups this year

Lebron @ LA
9-25, 1 steal, 1 block, 4 assist, 23 points. game result is a LOSS

LA @ Lebron
5-20, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 9 assist, 16 points, game result is a LOSS

Kobe bryant
LA @ CLE
8-17, 19 points, 1 steal, 4 assist , game result is a WIN (and played while throwing up in the sidelines)

CLE @ LA
9-22, 1 steal, 1 block, 12 assist, 23 points, game result is a WIN ( also played with a messed up pinkie that got hurt because of Lebron) SO DONT BE BIASED AND LOOK AT WHO IS REALLY BETTER, AND THAT IS KOBE BEAN BRYANT. PLEASE DONT EVER PUT LEBRON'S NAME IN THE SAME SENTENCE AS KOBE, THANK YOU.

It's post like this that derail an entire thread. You call Lebron that name above but yet while averaging more ppg he shoots a better fg%.

And your last sentence is completely hypocritical.

Verbal Christ
05-20-2009, 11:32 AM
Wow. I don't know how seriously I should even take you when you are arguing about something you obviously know nothing about.

Big Z was an All-Star in the 2002-03' season, one season before Lebron was even in the league. If you can credit Lebron with taking Big Z into the All-Star game after that, you've got a serious man-crush on Lebron.

Also, if you can credit Mo William's success to Lebron as well, I'm going to credit Pau's return to All-Stardom to Kobe. Gasol never returned to the All-Star game without Kobe.

And no, one appearance as an All-Star does not make you a "perennial" All-Star.

We're back at square one, except Kobe have proven he can take a Laker squad without another All-Star and with the likes of Smush, Kwame, Luke, and Brian Cook to the playoffs and almost knock out a 50+ win team by himself.

So yah... Lebron had a player on his squad that was a two-time All-Star and couldn't do anything worthwhile in an Eastern Conference that was at the time, lacking.

Kobe was given an almost All-Star and some D-leaguers and almost took down the Suns in a tough Western Conference.

Let's also take a look at how players have fared after becoming a Laker. Trevor Ariza, as a Knick and a Magic, he wasn't anything special. The moment he stepped on the court with Kobe, he's been making a huge splash across the NBA. Pau Gasol, one time All-Star, has now returned to All-Stardom "because of Kobe" (not really, bit if you can credit Lebron with Big Z's 2nd All-Star bid, I can say this with EASE". Shannon Brown went from not being heard about, to a consistent option at PG.

Let's now take a look at how players have fared without Kobe. Smush went from a starter to nothing. The HEAT who have needed a PG for a long time, wouldn't even have Smush coming off the bench as a legit option until they shut down Wade.

Kwame... Memphis didn't even want to play this guy, and Detroit this season has blown balls. Oh, they started Kwame a few games and he's sucked.

Brian Cook. I will leave it at that, his name.

Just as I will leave it to you how Lebron made Big Z a perennial All-Star when Big Z hasn't made any appearances as an All-Star since Lebron actually started being "good".

"know nothing about" humorous. So is it safe to say you are a more sound basketball mind than jerry west since everyone is basically expounding on his comments. Sounds to me that you are just solidifying your position as being a fanboy yourself. Your "facts" are nothing more than personal opinions if you would look past the tunnel vision scroll a few pages back and digest the statistical evidence that supports the claim. Using your logic kobe was the sole person responsible for turning gasol back to an allstar and brown into a decent player? LOL. Yeah I'm sure phil jackson and the triangle had nothing to do with that.

Hustla23
05-20-2009, 11:33 AM
You don't have to be a genius to point this out.

Lebron is 100% going to be the best player of all time when all's said and done.

RaiderLakersA's
05-20-2009, 11:35 AM
As long as the banner gets raised in Lakerland at the end of the season, I don't care who the best player in the league is. In fact, I'm happy to concede it to LeBron. The fact is, they are at different stages in their careers. Kobe isn't still trying to build a legacy. If he retired today he'd still be considered as one of the top 50, if not top 15, to ever play the game. That's all set in stone.

What remains is for Kobe to continue to chase the truly greats in terms of team success. His mindset is finally where we've always wanted it to be...on winning championships. First, he has to chase down Duncan and get that 4th ring. Then he has to catch Magic with 5. Then, if he's lucky, Jordan at 6. That's where Kobe's focus is right now. That's all that matters.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 12:12 PM
"know nothing about" humorous. So is it safe to say you are a more sound basketball mind than jerry west since everyone is basically expounding on his comments. Sounds to me that you are just solidifying your position as being a fanboy yourself. Your "facts" are nothing more than personal opinions if you would look past the tunnel vision scroll a few pages back and digest the statistical evidence that supports the claim. Using your logic kobe was the sole person responsible for turning gasol back to an allstar and brown into a decent player? LOL. Yeah I'm sure phil jackson and the triangle had nothing to do with that.

I'm confused. You are Jerry West?

I said YOU know nothing about the topic dude. And you seriously do not. Neither Big Z nor Mo Williams are considered "perennial" all-stars. They do not make it into the All-Star game year after year. By this standard, Pau is not a "perennial" all-star either.

Also, I do not credit Kobe with Pau's All-Star selection at ALL. I was merely making a sarcastic remark towards your crediting Lebron with Big Z's All-Star selections even though he make it into the All-Star game when Lebron wasn't even in the league, and another when Lebron was. Neither of those selections should be credited to Leron, but I was saying that if you can credit Lebron with such a ridiculous accomplishment, then I can credit Kobe with Pau's All-Star selection.

Also, if you don't know or watch Laker ball, don't just throw around the "triangle" and credit it to Pau's success, because it obviously has little to do with the triangle and more to do with Pau's own accomplishment.

First, when Pau first came to the Lakers, he fit in perfectly without previous knowledge of the triangle. His own basketball IQ allowed him to play within our system.

Secondly, Pau is one of the anchors for the second unit. Throughout the year, Pau has stayed on the floor with the second unit which if you watch Laker ball runs the triangle far less than the starting unit.

I am not questioning Jerry West's opinion, basketball IQ, wisdom, judge of talent, or knowledge of the game of basketball. I am questioning yours.

JordansBulls
05-20-2009, 12:12 PM
You don't have to be a genius to point this out.

Lebron is 100% going to be the best player of all time when all's said and done.


How is it a 100% that he is going to be the best all time? I wouldn't even say it is even 50% that he will be in the immortal 6

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 12:19 PM
Also, refering to Verbal Christ's statement that I am questioning Jerry West's comment, I am not. If you would learn to read, you would find that I am refuting your comment, which I quoted initially and refuted with examples.

I don't mind Jerry West or anyone else saying Lebron is better than Kobe at this point. It can go either way and I have stated this in other threads. I concede that Lebron would make his imprint over the course of a game more than Kobe would on the average. I personally don't think Lebron is better than Kobe. My reason for this is because while Kobe will make less of an imprint on the average game, Kobe shows up for the tougher games... the good teams, the title contenders while Lebron doesn't.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 12:20 PM
How is it a 100% that he is going to be the best all time? I wouldn't even say it is even 50% that he will be in the immortal 6

It isn't. They are just being homers.

Verbal Christ
05-20-2009, 12:43 PM
I'm confused. You are Jerry West?

I said YOU know nothing about the topic dude. And you seriously do not. Neither Big Z nor Mo Williams are considered "perennial" all-stars. They do not make it into the All-Star game year after year. By this standard, Pau is not a "perennial" all-star either.

Also, I do not credit Kobe with Pau's All-Star selection at ALL. I was merely making a sarcastic remark towards your crediting Lebron with Big Z's All-Star selections even though he make it into the All-Star game when Lebron wasn't even in the league, and another when Lebron was. Neither of those selections should be credited to Leron, but I was saying that if you can credit Lebron with such a ridiculous accomplishment, then I can credit Kobe with Pau's All-Star selection.

Also, if you don't know or watch Laker ball, don't just throw around the "triangle" and credit it to Pau's success, because it obviously has little to do with the triangle and more to do with Pau's own accomplishment.

First, when Pau first came to the Lakers, he fit in perfectly without previous knowledge of the triangle. His own basketball IQ allowed him to play within our system.

Secondly, Pau is one of the anchors for the second unit. Throughout the year, Pau has stayed on the floor with the second unit which if you watch Laker ball runs the triangle far less than the starting unit.

I am not questioning Jerry West's opinion, basketball IQ, wisdom, judge of talent, or knowledge of the game of basketball. I am questioning yours.

I'm more confused than you at this point. You keep jabbering about one sentence in my response pertaining to perennial allstars go back and reread it in context without getting ur panties in a bunch. Gasol was in the running for allstar games every year in memphis he was/is widely regarded as a great talent so of course he can adjust to practically any system kobe has nothing to do with that. Lebron takes decent role players like mo williams and turns them into allstars how hard is that to comprehend? We need a crayola font for some of you guys. Ariza as well benefits from the system its not kobes doing that he is having a breakout year. The cavs don't have a gimmicky offense its pretty vanilla and lebron being the main focus of every opponent still puts up 30/8/8. What was kobes highest assist average in a season? I'm not the one on the defensive but was simply stating the obvious but for you it seems too much to accept. No one is saying kobe sucks he's a great INDIVIDUAL talent but he doesn't make his teammates better IMO. I was far from impressed during tha lakers/rockets series even when kobe wsa being kobe too often did the role players disappear. Lebron makes sure all his guys are involved.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 01:11 PM
I'm more confused than you at this point. You keep jabbering about one sentence in my response pertaining to perennial allstars go back and reread it in context without getting ur panties in a bunch. Gasol was in the running for allstar games every year in memphis he was/is widely regarded as a great talent so of course he can adjust to practically any system kobe has nothing to do with that. Lebron takes decent role players like mo williams and turns them into allstars how hard is that to comprehend? We need a crayola font for some of you guys. Ariza as well benefits from the system its not kobes doing that he is having a breakout year. The cavs don't have a gimmicky offense its pretty vanilla and lebron being the main focus of every opponent still puts up 30/8/8. What was kobes highest assist average in a season? I'm not the one on the defensive but was simply stating the obvious but for you it seems too much to accept. No one is saying kobe sucks he's a great INDIVIDUAL talent but he doesn't make his teammates better IMO. I was far from impressed during tha lakers/rockets series even when kobe wsa being kobe too often did the role players disappear. Lebron makes sure all his guys are involved.


dude, are you serious?

This is how the exchange has gone: I replied to your remark of "perennial all-stars" in mo williams and big z... both of whom you credit to lebron.. neither perennial.

you come back with a reply claiming that I know nothing about basketball and then you spew out something about the triangle which you obviously know very little about, and how often the lakers run it. I refute this claim that the triangle made pau the all-star he is by saying that it has more to do with pau's consistent play and he doesn't even play in the triangle a lot of the time.

now, you come back at me saying how i am only focusing on your one claim of perennial all-star and ignoring the fact that pau's play is credited to pau himself and his ability to play a high level of ball on a consistent basis. Also, you know nothing about what makes Ariza so valuable to us, nor do your claims of the triangle helping Ariza have any support.

Ariza is valuable to us not because of his offensive prowess, it's his defense. Do we run a triangle defense I'm not aware of?

Verbal Christ
05-20-2009, 01:29 PM
Look spidey lebron elevates whatever players he plays with while kobe needs to have talent for his team to succeed. The cavs probably have the worst roster out of the last 4 teams left. Do you not agree? So kobe almost beat the suns by himself 3 years ago what is your point? They still lost. That was kobe being kobe. If lebron is on that lakers team they probaby win that series due to his ability to make his team better. I can respect your stance defending your fave team and player but you should really just acknowledge the obvious.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 02:00 PM
Look spidey lebron elevates whatever players he plays with while kobe needs to have talent for his team to succeed. The cavs probably have the worst roster out of the last 4 teams left. Do you not agree? So kobe almost beat the suns by himself 3 years ago what is your point? They still lost. That was kobe being kobe. If lebron is on that lakers team they probaby win that series due to his ability to make his team better. I can respect your stance defending your fave team and player but you should really just acknowledge the obvious.

Again, do you not pay attention to the fact that Big Z was an All-Star before Lebron even came into the league? Do you not understand that Lebron has been playing with an All-Star since day 1 while Kobe for the past few years (pre-pau, post-shaq) had no all-star to name.

Talk about elevating his team... Smush Parker as a Laker:
11ppg/~3.3apg/~3rpg/1.6spg in 33 minutes and shot the best seasons of his career (i don't know if I'd count his years as a Suns player, playing 6mpg in 5 games).

Talk about elevating a player's game... Kwame never shot above 50% over a season in his career until he played with the Lakers. His Laker years were his best years.

Brian Cook is such trash, Orlando and Houston would not start this guy and barely even play him. He started in over 60 Laker games and in those seasons. Kobe made him seem better than he actually was and we got Ariza out of that deal.

Don't spew out random gibberish man, try to actually know what you're talking about.

Verbal Christ
05-20-2009, 02:48 PM
Ok how exactly does kobe make his team better please elaborate.wouldn't his assist numbers be much higher? As far as Z being an all star all these years I attribute that to lack of talent at that position and in that conference to actually try and convince yourself that he is elite and somehow is able to carry and lead a team is a bit of a stretch and yet the cavs have been winning since lebron showed up. He took a ragtag bunch to the finals and single handedly brought a struggling franchise back to respectability. Kobe didn't have the same impact on his team not until shaq arrived at least.

fresh prince
05-20-2009, 03:00 PM
Wow. I don't know how seriously I should even take you when you are arguing about something you obviously know nothing about.

Big Z was an All-Star in the 2002-03' season, one season before Lebron was even in the league. If you can credit Lebron with taking Big Z into the All-Star game after that, you've got a serious man-crush on Lebron.

Also, if you can credit Mo William's success to Lebron as well, I'm going to credit Pau's return to All-Stardom to Kobe. Gasol never returned to the All-Star game without Kobe.

And no, one appearance as an All-Star does not make you a "perennial" All-Star.

We're back at square one, except Kobe have proven he can take a Laker squad without another All-Star and with the likes of Smush, Kwame, Luke, and Brian Cook to the playoffs and almost knock out a 50+ win team by himself.

So yah... Lebron had a player on his squad that was a two-time All-Star and couldn't do anything worthwhile in an Eastern Conference that was at the time, lacking.

Kobe was given an almost All-Star and some D-leaguers and almost took down the Suns in a tough Western Conference.

Let's also take a look at how players have fared after becoming a Laker. Trevor Ariza, as a Knick and a Magic, he wasn't anything special. The moment he stepped on the court with Kobe, he's been making a huge splash across the NBA. Pau Gasol, one time All-Star, has now returned to All-Stardom "because of Kobe" (not really, bit if you can credit Lebron with Big Z's 2nd All-Star bid, I can say this with EASE". Shannon Brown went from not being heard about, to a consistent option at PG.

Let's now take a look at how players have fared without Kobe. Smush went from a starter to nothing. The HEAT who have needed a PG for a long time, wouldn't even have Smush coming off the bench as a legit option until they shut down Wade.

Kwame... Memphis didn't even want to play this guy, and Detroit this season has blown balls. Oh, they started Kwame a few games and he's sucked.

Brian Cook. I will leave it at that, his name.

Just as I will leave it to you how Lebron made Big Z a perennial All-Star when Big Z hasn't made any appearances as an All-Star since Lebron actually started being "good".

Preach on Son!

Kobe led arguably the worst roster from 2- 10 ever to 45 wins.. So The Kobe needs stars to win argument should be mute at this point..

Every PLAYER in The History of the Game has needed good talent around him to win! Its how this whole basketball thing works kiddies.

As I've said a few times in this thread Kobe and Lebron are too close to denote whos the clear #1.. For me right now Lebron is 1a and Kobe is 1b. Based on their play this year and in the playoffs.

I'll be interested to see if Lebron can keep up his complete domination of the Leauge vs. Orlando

fast_break
05-20-2009, 03:02 PM
He took a ragtag bunch to the finals


lack of talent... ...in that conference

:)

Hustla23
05-20-2009, 03:17 PM
How is it a 100% that he is going to be the best all time? I wouldn't even say it is even 50% that he will be in the immortal 6

You're not kidding?

He's already 24 and won MVP, made a finals appearance, and will most likely be Finals MVP this year.

All while being 24.

He's got another 10 years to rack up the miscellaneous stuff.

masalex1205
05-20-2009, 03:41 PM
LeBron isn't better than Kobe until he beats Kobe at everything. He's not a better shooter (and it's not close either), he's not a better man defender, he's really not that better as a weakside defender either (Kobe is a lot smaller and still comes around the same corner and block shots), Kobe's more clutch (so is Melo and a few others) and LeBron hasn't performed on the biggest stage. His team sucked against the best teams this year and when he got to the Finals, the Spurs wiped the floor with him. How you ask? By clogging the lane and letting him shoot jumpers over someone. Until he can routinely hit deep jumpers and be a great on the ball defender, he won't be better than Kobe until he slips. Yes, LeBron is by far the second best player in the league, but until he is better at shooting, defense and winning the biggest games, he won't be #1.

Plus, the only reason West said this now was to piss off Kobe and help him with the killer instinct even though no one else on that team has it.


Your logic is flawed. For everything that Kobe is better at, Lebron has an area where he is better. Lebron is a better driver to the basket, better passer, and most importantly, the better teammate/leader.

Just because Kobe is better in certain areas doesn't mean that his all-around game is better just like Lebron is better than Carmelo Anthoney (the example used above).

I don't think bringing up the Spurs/Cavaliers final is relevant. Lebron has improved drastically since then including his jump shot.

I firmly believe that Lebron has surpassed Kobe but I guess we'll have to wait and see if there is a Cavs vs. Lakers final when we'll really find out.

fresh prince
05-20-2009, 04:46 PM
Look spidey lebron elevates whatever players he plays with while kobe needs to have talent for his team to succeed. The cavs probably have the worst roster out of the last 4 teams left. Do you not agree? So kobe almost beat the suns by himself 3 years ago what is your point? They still lost. That was kobe being kobe. If lebron is on that lakers team they probaby win that series due to his ability to make his team better. I can respect your stance defending your fave team and player but you should really just acknowledge the obvious.


I mean Really?

So Lebron is the only player in the history of team sports that doesn't need players with Talent around him to succeed? I mean do you really believe that?

Mo Williams
Big Z
Delonte West
Andy Varejao
Joe Smith
D Gibson
Sasha Pavlovic
Wally Scerbiak

These cats are all solid rotation players and really talented. Mo Williams and Z are all star caliber..

Why disparage really talented players just to make a case for Lebron being great.

Lebron is great and arguably the best in the game (1A or 1b at worse)..But he also has a good group of guys around him..And he would be the 1st to tell you that

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 05:11 PM
It's going to be tough for him to surpass MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bird etc.., but he definitely has an opportunity to be one of the greatest players of all-time. All of those guys accomplished so much that it's going to be a difficult task in terms of overtaking their places in the rankings of great players.


I think he'll surpass them all. IMO he's already better than Bird. I know that rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but he's just that damn good and he's only 24......

blacknell
05-20-2009, 05:16 PM
i agree with west 100%

GspLAL
05-20-2009, 05:41 PM
Lebron better develop his jumpshot because if he doesn't, once he gets up to his 29-30s, he'll be screwed because he wont be as quick and explosive as he is right now to get his easy shots. And to those of you who think Lebron is a better defender than Kobe, you're blinded by hate or just blind, Blocks and steals don't mean you're a lockdown defender, sorry. Kobe is still top 3 in lockdown defense but you don't see him do it a lot because he needs his energy on offense, but when the time comes, he does it.

GspLAL
05-20-2009, 05:43 PM
I mean Really?

So Lebron is the only player in the history of team sports that doesn't need players with Talent around him to succeed? I mean do you really believe that?

Mo Williams
Big Z
Delonte West
Andy Varejao
Joe Smith
D Gibson
Sasha Pavlovic
Wally Scerbiak

These cats are all solid rotation players and really talented. Mo Williams and Z are all star caliber..

Why disparage really talented players just to make a case for Lebron being great.

Lebron is great and arguably the best in the game (1A or 1b at worse)..But he also has a good group of guys around him..And he would be the 1st to tell you that

Dude didn't you know that Jordan won the title alone? he did it all by himself, no help, same with Kareem its amazing!!

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 05:44 PM
LeBron isn't better than Kobe until he beats Kobe at everything. He's not a better shooter (and it's not close either), he's not a better man defender, he's really not that better as a weakside defender either (Kobe is a lot smaller and still comes around the same corner and block shots), Kobe's more clutch (so is Melo and a few others) and LeBron hasn't performed on the biggest stage. His team sucked against the best teams this year and when he got to the Finals, the Spurs wiped the floor with him. How you ask? By clogging the lane and letting him shoot jumpers over someone. Until he can routinely hit deep jumpers and be a great on the ball defender, he won't be better than Kobe until he slips. Yes, LeBron is by far the second best player in the league, but until he is better at shooting, defense and winning the biggest games, he won't be #1.

Plus, the only reason West said this now was to piss off Kobe and help him with the killer instinct even though no one else on that team has it.

Kobe is a better mid range shooter, Lebron is just a good of 3 pt shooter. They have just about the same percentage and that's with Lebron taking many more attempts. Kobe's defense has always been slightly overrated. His 1st team defense awards are more out of reputation than actual accomplishment. Lebron's defense has improved dramatically and so has his jumpshot (although his midrange game still needs work). He's a better distributor, rebounder, and leader. The fact that he even got that team of role players to the finals speaks volumes....

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 05:45 PM
Lebron better develop his jumpshot because if he doesn't, once he gets up to his 29-30s, he'll be screwed because he wont be as quick and explosive as he is right now to get his easy shots. And to those of you who think Lebron is a better defender than Kobe, you're blinded by hate or just blind, Blocks and steals don't mean you're a lockdown defender, sorry. Kobe is still top 3 in lockdown defense but you don't see him do it a lot because he needs his energy on offense, but when the time comes, he does it.

I watch both of them play defense and I've seen Lebron lock into people as well....Kobe being one of them. He's a great all around defender.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 05:49 PM
I mean Really?

So Lebron is the only player in the history of team sports that doesn't need players with Talent around him to succeed? I mean do you really believe that?

Mo Williams
Big Z
Delonte West
Andy Varejao
Joe Smith
D Gibson
Sasha Pavlovic
Wally Scerbiak

These cats are all solid rotation players and really talented. Mo Williams and Z are all star caliber..

Why disparage really talented players just to make a case for Lebron being great.

Lebron is great and arguably the best in the game (1A or 1b at worse)..But he also has a good group of guys around him..And he would be the 1st to tell you that

Okay... let's be real.

Stop being Lehomers.

Lebron has played with a 2-time All-Star these past few years and accomplished nothing. Making it to the Finals and getting swept discounts even making it to the Finals in my book.

He has 2-time All-Star Big Z, 4-time All-Star and DPOY Ben Wallace, now has 1-time All-Star in Mo Williams, and though Wally isn't close to his former self, 1-time All-Star in Wally. I realize Ben Wallace and Wally aren't their former selves, you do not need to point this out, as some of you like to do.

Lebron has a team tailor-made to fit him. He's got shooters all around him in Booby Gibson, West, Williams, and Wally. He's got a team dedicated on the defensive end from day 1. He's got vets and young guns all around and in all the right places. He's got Joe Smith, Varejao, Ben Wallace, and Big Z in the front court which is not only balanced, but formidable and providing of a wide array of skill sets.

Lebron does not make these guys "better". These guys were good before they even met Lebron. Mo Williams on the Bucks is the same Mo Williams as on the Cavs. Take a look at his numbers before you speak.

Hell, his last year on the Bucks was better ACROSS THE BOARD than his "All-Star" season... yet Lebron "made him better".

You take a look at these players and see what they've done before and after Cleveland. Delonte West, before skipping from team to team put up essentially the same numbers (some worse) than when he was on the Celtics.

Ben Wallace's number declined, though I concede, age and usage has a lot to do with it.

But yah, whatever, ignore the facts. Facts that show that players who play with Kobe, before and after, show that they produced more while playing with Kobe. That players who play with Lebron are essentially the same players, putting up the same numbers, and in some cases... lesser numbers.

Go live in your little Leworld.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 05:52 PM
nevermind.

Lakergirl24
05-20-2009, 05:53 PM
Lebron hasnt won even a single ring yet. So talking about best player ever is a joke to me.

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 05:53 PM
In the span of 48 minutes, Lebron is more consistent and is overall, more dominant throughout. Kobe has spurts of time where he doesn't do anything, and might not even touch the ball. However, Kobe will kill you with bursts of points.

Put it this way. Kobe on his best day would destroy Lebron on his best day. Throughout the course of an average NBA game though, Lebron would influence it more than Kobe would. Kobe would dominate the 4th though.

Against tough opponents, Kobe will show up and it's extremely hard to stop him or slow him down. Lebron is much easier to stop if your team knows how to play good defense. Against weaker opponents, Lebron would dominate while Kobe won't really respect them unless his team is in a hole.

You guys forget about who shows up against good teams. Take a look at their stats game by game. Kobe will outperform Lebron against better, tougher opponents. Lebron dominates against weaker teams.

I'm sorry, but this bold argument is just weak. For crying out loud Lebron almost beat the celtics last year with a team of role players who were thrown together at the trading deadline. Had he had "little" help in game 7, the cavs could've possibly went all the way last year. Meanwhile Kobe gets to the finals, allows his team to give up a 20 pt lead in the 4th game, and gets smoked in game 6. Lebron has proven on numerous occassions that he's a clutch playoff performer in his short career.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 05:58 PM
You're not kidding?

He's already 24 and won MVP, made a finals appearance, and will most likely be Finals MVP this year.

All while being 24.

He's got another 10 years to rack up the miscellaneous stuff.

So why wasn't Wade a lock to become better than Jordan?

By 24, he won Finals MVP and with it, a ring. He put together the best statistical playoff series (PER) by anyone in the modern era... including Jordan.

The only thing Lebron really accomplished is his MVP. ANY Finals appearance that results in a sweep should not even be considered a Finals appearance.

Lakergirl24
05-20-2009, 05:58 PM
I'm sorry, but this bold argument is just weak. For crying out loud Lebron almost beat the celtics last year with a team of role players who were thrown together at the trading deadline. Had he had "little" help in game 7, the cavs could've possibly went all the way last year. Meanwhile Kobe gets to the finals, allows his team to give up a 20 pt lead in the 4th game, and gets smoked in game 6. Lebron has proven on numerous occassions that he's a clutch playoff performer in his short career.

If Lebron is so clutch, then why is his name never mentioned as one of the top clutch performers in the game today? Kobe, Billups, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce are all better clutch players at this point in time than Lebron. Hes even said himself tat he'd rather pass the ball to the guy who makes the game winner than take the shot himself.

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 05:59 PM
Okay... let's be real.

Stop being Lehomers.

Lebron has played with a 2-time All-Star these past few years and accomplished nothing. Making it to the Finals and getting swept discounts even making it to the Finals in my book.

He has 2-time All-Star Big Z, 4-time All-Star and DPOY Ben Wallace, now has 1-time All-Star in Mo Williams, and though Wally isn't close to his former self, 1-time All-Star in Wally. I realize Ben Wallace and Wally aren't their former selves, you do not need to point this out, as some of you like to do.

Lebron has a team tailor-made to fit him. He's got shooters all around him in Booby Gibson, West, Williams, and Wally. He's got a team dedicated on the defensive end from day 1. He's got vets and young guns all around and in all the right places. He's got Joe Smith, Varejao, Ben Wallace, and Big Z in the front court which is not only balanced, but formidable and providing of a wide array of skill sets.

Lebron does not make these guys "better". These guys were good before they even met Lebron. Mo Williams on the Bucks is the same Mo Williams as on the Cavs. Take a look at his numbers before you speak.

Hell, his last year on the Bucks was better ACROSS THE BOARD than his "All-Star" season... yet Lebron "made him better".

You take a look at these players and see what they've done before and after Cleveland. Delonte West, before skipping from team to team put up essentially the same numbers (some worse) than when he was on the Celtics.

Ben Wallace's number declined, though I concede, age and usage has a lot to do with it.

But yah, whatever, ignore the facts. Facts that show that players who play with Kobe, before and after, show that they produced more while playing with Kobe. That players who play with Lebron are essentially the same players, putting up the same numbers, and in some cases... lesser numbers.

Go live in your little Leworld.

He has a good supporting cast, but Big Z hasn't been an allstar center for some time now. Ben Wallace is getting pretty close to scrub material, because of his age. And yes, guys like Mo Williams and Delonte West are good players, but with the attention that Lebron draws along with his passing ability, he makes their jobs much easier.

Kenny
05-20-2009, 06:00 PM
If Lebron is so clutch, then why is his name never mentioned as one of the top clutch performers in the game today? Kobe, Billups, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce are all better clutch players at this point in time than Lebron. Hes even said himself tat he'd rather pass the ball to the guy who makes the game winner than take the shot himself.

making up stuff is a fun thing to do isnt it.. He said he makes the correct basketball play, if they double team he will find the open guy.. Not I rather let someone else shoot

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 06:04 PM
If Lebron is so clutch, then why is his name never mentioned as one of the top clutch performers in the game today? Kobe, Billups, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce are all better clutch players at this point in time than Lebron. Hes even said himself tat he'd rather pass the ball to the guy who makes the game winner than take the shot himself.

Because people believe the hype. Stats have shown that he's a great 4th quarter player, including the last 2 minutes (especially last season), and he's had his moments in the playoffs where he takes over games late.
I actually watch the game and know who has got "it" and who doesn't. If I had a big game to when there is no way on earth I'm taking Pierce, Allen, or Billups over Lebron down the stretch. And passing the ball to another teammate isn't always a bad option....Michael did it with Paxson and Kerr, Hakeem did it with Horry and Maxwell, Shaq has done it, Kobe has done it......

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 06:07 PM
If LeBron is so much better, why did Kobe completely shut him down in two games this year? If I remember correctly he went like 11-45 against Kobe as the main defender. Kobe understands to keep LeBron out of the lane and make him shoot contested jumpers. He won't hit. That's the biggest difference in the two. Kobe wants to man up against the star on defense, LeBron wants no part of that. Also, when the lane gets blocked off, Kobe can routinely hit shots, LeBron can't. Then the last point, look how bad LeBron is and how much better Kobe is against the best teams.


The head to head matchup argument is weak considering Lebron has won more games head to head all while putting up better numbers. Lebron "manned" him up last season in Staples and basically shut him down in the 4th and then proceeded to knock in a J to close out the game........

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 06:08 PM
I'm sorry, but this bold argument is just weak. For crying out loud Lebron almost beat the celtics last year with a team of role players who were thrown together at the trading deadline. Had he had "little" help in game 7, the cavs could've possibly went all the way last year. Meanwhile Kobe gets to the finals, allows his team to give up a 20 pt lead in the 4th game, and gets smoked in game 6. Lebron has proven on numerous occassions that he's a clutch playoff performer in his short career.

Right, because the Cavs' defense doesn't account for anything and Lebron could defend an entire team by himself. See, the difference is, the Cavs actually play defense, a product of their coaching staff more than anything else, so even if his team were bad offensively (which they are not)... he's still got that aspect going for them. Also, despite low scoring numbers, a lot of the Cavs actually scored much more efficiently than Lebron.

fresh prince
05-20-2009, 06:08 PM
nevermind.

hahaha..That was weird..We were arguing the same point...

Lebrons teammates are really good players..And no one in the history of team sports can succeed without talent around him. Not even in Soccer

Lakergirl24
05-20-2009, 06:09 PM
Because people believe the hype. Stats have shown that he's a great 4th quarter player, including the last 2 minutes (especially last season), and he's had his moments in the playoffs where he takes over games late.
I actually watch the game and know who has got "it" and who doesn't. If I had a big game to when there is no way on earth I'm taking Pierce, Allen, or Billups over Lebron down the stretch. And passing the ball to another teammate isn't always a bad option....Michael did it with Paxson and Kerr, Hakeem did it with Horry and Maxwell, Shaq has done it, Kobe has done it......

Youd really rather have lebron take a game winner than Ray Allen or Billups or Pierce? I wouldnt trust that dudes jump shot over someone like Allen who rarely misses in the clutch

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 06:16 PM
When did the criteria for best player suddenly become 'volume shooting two-guard who has break out games every now and then'?

Claiming Kobe is the best player is just as bad as claiming AI was the best player back in the 01 days.

Lebron is obviously better, but I would take a prime Shaq or Hakeen over both of these guy's.

Props for giving Hakeem credit. Just to let you know I am the biggest Hakeem **** rider there is....Seriously, there's not one single person on the face of this earth who I'd ask for an autograph except The Dream.....With all that being said, I can't honestly say that I'd take Dream over Lebron. Hakeem is still vastly underrated imo and he's my idol, but Lebron will pass him up (if he hasn't done so already).

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 06:20 PM
Youd really rather have lebron take a game winner than Ray Allen or Billups or Pierce? I wouldnt trust that dudes jump shot over someone like Allen who rarely misses in the clutch


I'd rather have a guy who can get to the bucket and get a layup or draw a foul. You can be clutch without shooting a jumper all of the time.....it's been proven.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 06:23 PM
The head to head matchup argument is weak considering Lebron has won more games head to head all while putting up better numbers. Lebron "manned" him up last season in Staples and basically shut him down in the 4th and then proceeded to knock in a J to close out the game........

You're absolutely right. Lebron has won more games against Kobe than Kobe has against Lebron. However, Lebron had Big Z and Larry Hughes, who was at the time, playing well (still putting up around 15ppg, 4rpg, 4apg).

Kobe, in comparison, had Smush Parker, Luke Walton (worse back then than now), Kwame Brown, and Brian Cook in his actual starting line up. Kobe had LO, which was a saving grace, but LO was injury prone during that season and also prone to some seriously good games and incredible dissapearing acts. This Laker team also had no M.O. like the Cavs, who can play good defense. The Lakers were all offense, all the time... and their offense was Kobe.

The best example of a direct head-to-head matchup between Kobe and Lebron in THAT time period was the Team USA Blue vs White game where Kobe pulled off his classic clutchness.

http://www.usabasketball.com/seniormen/2007/07_msnt_exhbox1.pdf

You can't really look at those lineups and tell me Kobe wasn't set up to lose that matchup. They even provided Lebron's team with two of the best Kobe defenders in Prince and Battier and gave Kobe two ROOKIES in Durant and JJ Redick.

Guess who willed the blue team to victory?

Lakergirl24
05-20-2009, 06:24 PM
I'd rather have a guy who can get to the bucket and get a layup or draw a foul. You can be clutch without shooting a jumper all of the time.....it's been proven.

He still hasnt proven that he can be a clutch free throw shooter. Im just saying. He's a great player but he hasnt proven he's clutch. I'd take any of those guys to take the winner or to drive to the cup and draw a foul..Kobe, Billups, Allen and Pierce all are better free throw shooters than Lebron.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 06:25 PM
Youd really rather have lebron take a game winner than Ray Allen or Billups or Pierce? I wouldnt trust that dudes jump shot over someone like Allen who rarely misses in the clutch

I wouldn't trust Lebron's ability to make the FT's either if he barged into the lane and was wrapped up.

I would definitely choose Mr Big Shot, Jesus Shuttlesworth, and the Truth over Lebron to take the last shot of the game.

sp1derm00
05-20-2009, 06:27 PM
I'd rather have a guy who can get to the bucket and get a layup or draw a foul. You can be clutch without shooting a jumper all of the time.....it's been proven.

See, this is where coaching comes into play.

Down by 2, Lebron drives and gets near the hoop... Posey wraps him up, preventing any hope for a 3 point play. You would take your chances of Lebron making those 2 FT's over any other player that can drive and finish?

Down by 2, Lebron takes a pull up mid-range jumper... def not as confidence inspiring as Pierce, Ray Allen, or Billups.

Down by 3.. o man, even less confidence inspiring.

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 06:31 PM
Right, because the Cavs' defense doesn't account for anything and Lebron could defend an entire team by himself. See, the difference is, the Cavs actually play defense, a product of their coaching staff more than anything else, so even if his team were bad offensively (which they are not)... he's still got that aspect going for them. Also, despite low scoring numbers, a lot of the Cavs actually scored much more efficiently than Lebron.

yes defense was apart of it, but so was lebron's ability to dominate a game...even while not shooting particularly well from the field. I remember after game 4 in the semis last year, a reporter asked Doc Rivers how the Celtics managed to control Lebron, since he didn't shoot well from the field. Doc stated that he felt that although he didn't shoot the ball well, that he still dominated the game.

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 06:34 PM
See, this is where coaching comes into play.

Down by 2, Lebron drives and gets near the hoop... Posey wraps him up, preventing any hope for a 3 point play. You would take your chances of Lebron making those 2 FT's over any other player that can drive and finish?

Down by 2, Lebron takes a pull up mid-range jumper... def not as confidence inspiring as Pierce, Ray Allen, or Billups.

Down by 3.. o man, even less confidence inspiring.

Lebron has hit clutch FTs before. He has hit clutch jumpers before.....Lebron is a clutch player......end of story.

Lakergirl24
05-20-2009, 06:38 PM
Lebron has hit clutch FTs before. He has hit clutch jumpers before.....Lebron is a clutch player......end of story.

He doesnt do it consistently...on numerous occasions I've seen him *** up the game winner.....and several times I've seen him miss free throws in the clutch. He has not proven on a consistent basis, that he's great with the game on the line. End of story IMO:)

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 06:51 PM
You're absolutely right. Lebron has won more games against Kobe than Kobe has against Lebron. However, Lebron had Big Z and Larry Hughes, who was at the time, playing well (still putting up around 15ppg, 4rpg, 4apg).

Kobe, in comparison, had Smush Parker, Luke Walton (worse back then than now), Kwame Brown, and Brian Cook in his actual starting line up. Kobe had LO, which was a saving grace, but LO was injury prone during that season and also prone to some seriously good games and incredible dissapearing acts. This Laker team also had no M.O. like the Cavs, who can play good defense. The Lakers were all offense, all the time... and their offense was Kobe.

The best example of a direct head-to-head matchup between Kobe and Lebron in THAT time period was the Team USA Blue vs White game where Kobe pulled off his classic clutchness.

http://www.usabasketball.com/seniormen/2007/07_msnt_exhbox1.pdf

You can't really look at those lineups and tell me Kobe wasn't set up to lose that matchup. They even provided Lebron's team with two of the best Kobe defenders in Prince and Battier and gave Kobe two ROOKIES in Durant and JJ Redick.

Guess who willed the blue team to victory?

lol @ larry hughes....lets forget he even existed.....bottom line is head to head, Lebron has held his own against Kobe and in some instances has been better.

Jahari Kavi
05-20-2009, 06:53 PM
He doesnt do it consistently...on numerous occasions I've seen him *** up the game winner.....and several times I've seen him miss free throws in the clutch. He has not proven on a consistent basis, that he's great with the game on the line. End of story IMO:)

yes he has. Statistical proof and the games in which he's been clutch in prove it. The guy knows how to close out a game.

PHX-SOXFAN
05-20-2009, 07:00 PM
Which is why he better get better quick. He won't have those athletic abilities forever. Kobe has busted his butt since he was a rookie to improve his game, not rely on his athletic abilities. Now that his body is starting to fade, he's still the best offensive weapon in the NBA. LeBron MUST learn to shoot the 3, midrange and use better footwork in the post. That said, when his abilities go, so do their chances at a title. They're built around him driving and kicking. When he isn't a freak anymore, he'll have to go to the role Kobe has now. Then again....that brings up the fact he really sucks at shooting and fundamentals. I've been saying for three years LeBron is the best athlete in the NBA and Kobe is the best basketball player. If anyone is goofy enough to argue that, they're crazy. His skillset is one of the best the league has ever seen. Wade and Melo are so much closer to Kobe in that regard it isn't even funny. In the end, LeBron won't be the best ever. His greatest strength will end up being his greatest weakness. He's too busy dominating and making money to work Kobe hard on his game. When his body slips down a little, it'll be too late to start. That's a long post, but it's so common sense.

this entire post is laughable. are you that much of a homer that you fail to recognize lebron's skills and fundamentals? Do you seriously deny how much better he is with his mid range and three point shot? How about his defense? He was right behind howard for DPOY. You should just sit back when anything is compared to anything lakers. You just stick your head in the sand and say ridiculous things like lebron has no skills or fundamentals. what a joke.

just for once try to be objective.

BullySixChicago
05-20-2009, 08:49 PM
Ok Jerry West
This is what Bron has to do to be the greatest ever
Win 7 NBA titles one 3 in a row and a 4 in a row
7 final mvp's
6 regular season mvp
Have the highest scoring avg in nba history
Have the highest scoring avg in nba play-offs
Have the highest scoring avg in the all star game
Make all defense first team 10 times
win 11 scoring titles 8 in row retire 3 years and win 3 more straight
sell 1 billion nike shoes
dunk from the ft line
hit an uncountable number of game winning shots
Hit the winning shot in the ncaa championship game oops cant do that* last of all be college player of the year oops cant do that either
Yes he has a long hard road to reach that level and please stop mentioning Kobe in this greatest conversation hell he would not even make the all time nba 1st or second team

montazingmvp
05-20-2009, 10:45 PM
anyone who denies lebron is the best player in the game today is blinded by their own bias.

anybody who's been watching the playoffs now knows that lebron is the best player...lebron has been putting up huge numbers every game (out of this world numbers ala mj) and kobe has been extremely inconsisten though he has still had a couple great games.

but for lebron to be the best ever, he has to continue at this pace for the next 8 years or so, because thats what mj did. mj was the best player in the league for 10 years straight (minus two missed seasons)...lebron has now been the best for 1, arguably 2 seasons...

and don't give me that bullcrap that lebron has more competition. tell me guys like clyde drexler, charles barkley, dominique wilkins etc etc, were not great players

NYMetros
05-20-2009, 11:01 PM
I wouldn't expect Jerry West to say something like that. Wow. I completely agree with him though.


Ok Jerry West
This is what Bron has to do to be the greatest ever
Win 7 NBA titles one 3 in a row and a 4 in a row
7 final mvp's
6 regular season mvp
Have the highest scoring avg in nba history
Have the highest scoring avg in nba play-offs
Have the highest scoring avg in the all star game
Make all defense first team 10 times
win 11 scoring titles 8 in row retire 3 years and win 3 more straight
sell 1 billion nike shoes
dunk from the ft line
hit an uncountable number of game winning shots
Hit the winning shot in the ncaa championship game oops cant do that* last of all be college player of the year oops cant do that either
Yes he has a long hard road to reach that level and please stop mentioning Kobe in this greatest conversation hell he would not even make the all time nba 1st or second team

Why does LeBron need to win so many rings when rings are totally dependent on who you have around you in the NBA? It's called a team sport. You know, 5 guys on the court at once.

montazingmvp
05-20-2009, 11:09 PM
He doesnt do it consistently...on numerous occasions I've seen him *** up the game winner.....and several times I've seen him miss free throws in the clutch. He has not proven on a consistent basis, that he's great with the game on the line. End of story IMO:)

i've seen kobe mess up a lot of game winning shot too...nobody can make 100% of their clutch shots, not even MJ..

lets be realistic here.

montazingmvp
05-20-2009, 11:13 PM
I wouldn't expect Jerry West to say something like that. Wow. I completely agree with him though.



Why does LeBron need to win so many rings when rings are totally dependent on who you have around you in the NBA? It's called a team sport. You know, 5 guys on the court at once.

great players find ways to get their teams deep in the playoffs ATLEAST...

do you think its a coincidence that quite possibly the 4 best players in the league are still alive in the playoffs

Sox Appeal
05-20-2009, 11:28 PM
He doesnt do it consistently...on numerous occasions I've seen him *** up the game winner.....and several times I've seen him miss free throws in the clutch. He has not proven on a consistent basis, that he's great with the game on the line. End of story IMO:)

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

I'm not a LeBron fan, or a Kobe fan, I'm just a basketball fan. But saying LeBron hasn't proven himself in the clutch is laughable. He's the best clutch player in the league, and has been for some time.

Missing56&33
05-20-2009, 11:32 PM
Now this is pretty powerful stuff.... with all the great players to play the game, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Wade, Oscar Robinson, Bob Cousy, and so on the list goes on and on. NO ONE CAN EVER COMPARE TO MICHAEL JORDAN #23

NO BODY will change the game like him. He took basketball above and beyond all of our imaginations. Im a knicks fan and MJ had me just stunned and in a state of shock unlike any player i have ever seen in any sport. MICHAEL JORDAN IS BASKETBALL.

In fact the NBA should replace the existing logo with MJ's

ATL_Representa
05-20-2009, 11:35 PM
Lol still think lebron the best??

How many clutch free throws he missed??

You think kobe or jordan wouldve passed that ball at the end??..Absolutely not!!

Yet again this game shows hes not clutch like kobe and hes not yet as good as kobe..Bottomline!!

montazingmvp
05-20-2009, 11:42 PM
Lol still think lebron the best??

How many clutch free throws he missed??

You think kobe or jordan wouldve passed that ball at the end??..Absolutely not!!

Yet again this game shows hes not clutch like kobe and hes not yet as good as kobe..Bottomline!!

and when has kobe scored 49 points making 20/30 shots EVER in the playoffs...lebron missed his freethrows something kobe would have made, but lebron scored 49 points while setting up 8 other people with easy baskets...something kobe will NEVER do. nevermind in the playoffs...

montazingmvp
05-20-2009, 11:45 PM
Lol still think lebron the best??

How many clutch free throws he missed??

You think kobe or jordan wouldve passed that ball at the end??..Absolutely not!!

Yet again this game shows hes not clutch like kobe and hes not yet as good as kobe..Bottomline!!

i mean seriously dude. your going to say kobe is better than lebron because he makes freethrows at a slightly better rate...and completely ignore the countless things lebron does MUCH better than kobe...you're a complete joke my friend...

drown your sorrows elsewhere, we know you only hate bron cuz he could single handedly destroy the hawks.

kingkobe
05-20-2009, 11:54 PM
and when has kobe scored 49 points making 20/30 shots EVER in the playoffs...lebron missed his freethrows something kobe would have made, but lebron scored 49 points while setting up 8 other people with easy baskets...something kobe will NEVER do. nevermind in the playoffs...

Haha Kudos to Lebron on the 20/30 49pt performance. But while Kobe was hitting the FTs yesterday which got LA the win, Lebron was missing and the Cavs lost.

Clutch isn't only hitting the last shot. It also includes FTs among a lot of other things. And Lebron is far from clutch when it comes to FTs.

NYMetros
05-20-2009, 11:57 PM
great players find ways to get their teams deep in the playoffs ATLEAST...

do you think its a coincidence that quite possibly the 4 best players in the league are still alive in the playoffs

Yes, great players get their teams deep. But they never close it out. Ever.

LeBron got his team to the finals a few years ago only to be swept by SA. He took Boston to 7 last year and would have won if it wasn't for Paul Pierce.

Rings are factors of teammates in the NBA.

Kenny
05-20-2009, 11:57 PM
Haha Kudos to Lebron on the 20/30 49pt performance. But while Kobe was hitting the FTs yesterday which got LA the win, Lebron was missing and the Cavs lost.

Clutch isn't only hitting the last shot. It also includes FTs among a lot of other things. And Lebron is far from clutch when it comes to FTs.

lmao laker fans are really getting pathetic with this whole kobe lebron thing

montazingmvp
05-20-2009, 11:58 PM
Haha Kudos to Lebron on the 20/30 49pt performance. But while Kobe was hitting the FTs yesterday which got LA the win, Lebron was missing and the Cavs lost.

Clutch isn't only hitting the last shot. It also includes FTs among a lot of other things. And Lebron is far from clutch when it comes to FTs.

i agree, i give the edge to kobe, being the more clutch player...but overall, lebron is the better player...lebron hitting ft's at a slightly lower rate doesn't mean he's a worse player, especially when you consider the countless things lebron does better THROUGHOUT than kobe...

Draco
05-20-2009, 11:59 PM
Haha Kudos to Lebron on the 20/30 49pt performance. But while Kobe was hitting the FTs yesterday which got LA the win, Lebron was missing and the Cavs lost.

Clutch isn't only hitting the last shot. It also includes FTs among a lot of other things. And Lebron is far from clutch when it comes to FTs.

Lebron wasn't missing shots down the stretch. Kobe did. The Lakers were lucky in the retaining possession of the ball after Kobe clanked his last jump shot. After that, Kobe made his FTs. IMO, luck had more to do with the outcome of the game than Kobe being "clutch".

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 12:00 AM
Yes, great players get their teams deep. But they never close it out. Ever.

LeBron got his team to the finals a few years ago only to be swept by SA. He took Boston to 7 last year and would have won if it wasn't for Paul Pierce.

Rings are factors of teammates in the NBA.

what do you mean great players never close it out...how many times have i seen mj single handedly close out a game vs the opponent...

case in point...bulls down 1 with 20 seconds left. mj gets the steal runs down the court and hits the game winner...

Draco
05-21-2009, 12:00 AM
i agree, i give the edge to kobe, being the more clutch player...but overall, lebron is the better player...lebron hitting ft's at a slightly lower rate doesn't mean he's a worse player, especially when you consider the countless things lebron does better THROUGHOUT than kobe...

Agree with the bold. Kobe could have passed the ball rather than take a low % shot.. he was lucky the Lakers got the ball back.

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:00 AM
lmao laker fans are really getting pathetic with this whole kobe lebron thing

lmao idiots who don't backup their posts with any arguments at all. Is that how you brought your post count to 4,700?

NYMetros
05-21-2009, 12:02 AM
what do you mean great players never close it out...how many times have i seen mj single handedly close out a game vs the opponent...

case in point...bulls down 1 with 20 seconds left. mj gets the steal runs down the court and hits the game winner...

WTF? Yeah, obviously he closed that PLAY out. The only reason he was in position to win though was because of his quality teammates who kept his team in the game.

madiaz3
05-21-2009, 12:03 AM
Lebron wasn't missing shots down the stretch. Kobe did. The Lakers were lucky in the retaining possession of the ball after Kobe clanked his last jump shot. After that, Kobe made his FTs. IMO, luck had more to do with the outcome of the game than Kobe being "clutch".

And IMO it was because of him being clutch.

Draco
05-21-2009, 12:03 AM
And IMO it was because of him being clutch.

Noted and discarded. The fact remains if the Lakers didn't get possession of the ball the outcome might have been different.

superkegger
05-21-2009, 12:05 AM
Haha Kudos to Lebron on the 20/30 49pt performance. But while Kobe was hitting the FTs yesterday which got LA the win, Lebron was missing and the Cavs lost.

Clutch isn't only hitting the last shot. It also includes FTs among a lot of other things. And Lebron is far from clutch when it comes to FTs.

Yeah, lets draw from one game to make a judgement. Lebron in "crunch time" shoots 85% from the line, 42% from 3 and 56% from the floor. Don't kid yourself thinking LeBron isn't clutch.

West was probably right when he said LeBron is better than Kobe. So what? Do you think perhaps there was maybe a little more meaning behind it than just what West said? You think maybe he was prodding Kobe a lil bit?

LeBron and Kobe are both great, both do great things. LeBron is probably at this point a more talented player. He does so much on the floor that Kobe doesn't, some of it is because of his size and athlecisim, which is just freak of naturish, and something few players to ever play the game will ever has, but the other part of it is because he's worked hard at his game.

Look, I love Kobe as much as any Lakers fan. But as far as who is more talented, it's LeBron. He just does so much for his team because of the physical abilities he's honed with his game. There's nothing wrong with admitting it. Does Kobe still outshine LeBron some days? Yeah, nobody is perfect, and Kobe is still one of the most unstoppable forces in the game today. It's not like Kobe has taken some kind of huge step back, he's still playing at an ultra high level, it's just that LeBron, like him or not, has skills and abilities and size and athleticismfew other players ever have had or will have again.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 12:06 AM
WTF? Yeah, obviously he closed that PLAY out. The only reason he was in position to win though was because of his quality teammates who kept his team in the game.


i think mj put gave his team the oppurtunity to win moreso than his teammates. of course his teammates played a huge part, but individually mj was vastly more important than any other player...

mj's teammates wouldn't have won the game without him...

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:06 AM
what do you mean great players never close it out...how many times have i seen mj single handedly close out a game vs the opponent...

case in point...bulls down 1 with 20 seconds left. mj gets the steal runs down the court and hits the game winner...

he meant Lebron. He even gave an example. And it was sarcastic....Btw thanks for giving you example too.

But let me give you Sarcasm 101...

Lebron gets to the free throw line. Should be easy enough for a guy with high shooting skills and fundamentals. But he missed 3 out of 4. And the Cavs lose. Well too bad.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 12:08 AM
Noted and discarded. The fact remains if the Lakers didn't get possession of the ball the outcome might have been different.

I dont get it. Why are you trying to hate on Kobe? Especially after last nights game? He scored 18 in the 4th! He played D on Billups and was banging around on Melo because nobody else on the Lakers can do the job. He only got 9 ft points so obviously he scored field goals as well. He made big passes to Ariza and Fisher for open threes. Nobody else showed up offensively and he carried them to that win. I know you dont like him. But your picking the wrong game to pick apart his game. He was a beast last night.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 12:09 AM
he meant Lebron. He even gave an example. And it was sarcastic....Btw thanks for giving you example too.

But let me give you Sarcasm 101...

Lebron gets to the free throw line. Should be easy enough for a guy with high shooting skills and fundamentals. But he missed 3 out of 4. And the Cavs lose. Well too bad.

sometimes its hard to detect sarcasm over the internet

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 12:11 AM
I dont get it. Why are you trying to hate on Kobe? Especially after last nights game? He scored 18 in the 4th! He played D on Billups and was banging around on Melo because nobody else on the Lakers can do the job. He only got 9 ft points so obviously he scored field goals as well. He made big passes to Ariza and Fisher for open threes. Nobody else showed up offensively and he carried them to that win. I know you dont like him. But your picking the wrong game to pick apart his game. He was a beast last night.

when kobe was gaurding melo, melo was destroying him...but kobe did pretty much will the lakers to victory the other night...but without ariza's steal and a few huge shots by fisher, kobe's game would have been disregarded just as lebron's is tonight, cuz they lost

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:13 AM
Yeah, lets draw from one game to make a judgement. Lebron in "crunch time" shoots 85% from the line, 42% from 3 and 56% from the floor. Don't kid yourself thinking LeBron isn't clutch.

West was probably right when he said LeBron is better than Kobe. So what? Do you think perhaps there was maybe a little more meaning behind it than just what West said? You think maybe he was prodding Kobe a lil bit?

LeBron and Kobe are both great, both do great things. LeBron is probably at this point a more talented player. He does so much on the floor that Kobe doesn't, some of it is because of his size and athlecisim, which is just freak of naturish, and something few players to ever play the game will ever has, but the other part of it is because he's worked hard at his game.

Look, I love Kobe as much as any Lakers fan. But as far as who is more talented, it's LeBron. He just does so much for his team because of the physical abilities he's honed with his game. There's nothing wrong with admitting it. Does Kobe still outshine LeBron some days? Yeah, nobody is perfect, and Kobe is still one of the most unstoppable forces in the game today. It's not like Kobe has taken some kind of huge step back, he's still playing at an ultra high level, it's just that LeBron, like him or not, has skills and abilities and size and athleticismfew other players ever have had or will have again.

I have nothing against Lebron but you gotta give Kobe the respect he deserves. If only Lebron can win which he hasn't been able to do yet (lost to Spurs, lost to Cs and now down 0-1 against Magic) then we can say Lebron has achieved a new greatness. Running through weak and injured teams doesn't get the same respect from as what Kobe has achieved during his career.

A major component of greatness includes winning. And Lebron hasn't accomplished that yet. Thats all.

Draco
05-21-2009, 12:17 AM
I dont get it. Why are you trying to hate on Kobe? Especially after last nights game? He scored 18 in the 4th! He played D on Billups and was banging around on Melo because nobody else on the Lakers can do the job. He only got 9 ft points so obviously he scored field goals as well. He made big passes to Ariza and Fisher for open threes. Nobody else showed up offensively and he carried them to that win. I know you dont like him. But your picking the wrong game to pick apart his game. He was a beast last night.

With regards to Kobe vs. Lebron being clutch. In the last minute of the game Lebron drove to the lane and passed to the open shooters. Kobe took the last jump shot and missed.. it was luck that the Lakers retained possession of the ball and he was able to get to the line to sink in some freebies. I suppose you could call that clutch FT shooting but had the Lakers not retained possession it would have been a moot point. Had he made that previous jump shot that would have been clutch. I don't see how anyone can say these games in the last minuntes prove that Kobe is more clutch than Lebron.

With regards to Kobe's overall performance. His shooting was poor prior to the 4th quarter. IIRC, at one point he was shooting 9/23 and that probably wasn't the worst of it. I suspect that the accumulation of Nugget fouls decreased their defensive intensity which allowed Kobe to even out his FG%. Prior to that, I saw flops resulting in missed shots, clean strips, and on one occasion traveling.

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:20 AM
Noted and discarded. The fact remains if the Lakers didn't get possession of the ball the outcome might have been different.

Haha then my friend you should stop watching basketball or any sports for that matter. Cuz based on these guys' shooting percentages which are usually below 50% EVERYTHING is luck.

I mean if there are two outcomes:
1. Shot goes in
2. Shot doesn't go in

And the chances for 1 are less than 50% then why would you bet on 1? right?

Clearly all these players suck and its all luck. I think I just ruined all sports for you. I'm really sorry for that.

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:23 AM
Noted and discarded. The fact remains if the Lakers didn't get possession of the ball the outcome might have been different.

And btw the fact that really remains is that Lakers DID get the posession and Kobe hit clutch FTs and LA won.

Sorry again, but the "fact" is usually what actually happens. Not, what didn't happen. English, it can be really tough and confusing sometimes.

Draco
05-21-2009, 12:24 AM
Haha then my friend you should stop watching basketball or any sports for that matter. Cuz based on these guys' shooting percentages which are usually below 50% EVERYTHING is luck.

I mean if there are two outcomes:
1. Shot goes in
2. Shot doesn't go in

And the chances for 1 are less than 50% then why would you bet on 1? right?

Clearly all these players suck and its all luck. I think I just ruined all sports for you. I'm really sorry for that.

At one point in the game..

Melo.. 11/15 for 30 points
Kobe.. 9/23 for 22 points

Draco
05-21-2009, 12:25 AM
And btw the fact that really remains is that Lakers DID get the posession and Kobe hit clutch FTs and LA won.

Sorry again, but the "fact" is usually what actually happens. Not, what didn't happen. English, it can be really tough and confusing sometimes.

I compared Kobe missing a jumper with making FTs to determine whether or not he was actually being clutch.. Simple enough to understand.

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:26 AM
At one point in the game..

Melo.. 11/15 for 30 points
Kobe.. 9/23 for 22 points

Umm you know these guys who are prolific shooter/scorers don't rely on 1 games' stats? You think Kobe/Melo/Lebron look at their stats for that game and then take the shots? lol

Draco
05-21-2009, 12:29 AM
Umm you know these guys who are prolific shooter/scorers don't rely on 1 games' stats? You think Kobe/Melo/Lebron look at their stats for that game and then take the shots? lol

Last post because I'm not interested in walking you through the conversation which is plain enough for most anyone else to follow. These last few posts were about 2 games. The one tonight and the one last night. I could probably dig up plenty of other games in which Kobe nearly shot his team out of a win but that's beyond the scope of this conversation.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 12:30 AM
With regards to Kobe vs. Lebron being clutch. In the last minute of the game Lebron drove to the lane and passed to the open shooters. Kobe took the last jump shot and missed.. it was luck that the Lakers retained possession of the ball and he was able to get to the line to sink in some freebies. I suppose you could call that clutch FT shooting but had the Lakers not retained possession it would have been a moot point. Had he made that previous jump shot that would have been clutch. I don't see how anyone can say these games in the last minuntes prove that Kobe is more clutch than Lebron.

With regards to Kobe's overall performance. His shooting was poor prior to the 4th quarter. IIRC, at one point he was shooting 9/22 and that probably wasn't the worst of it. I suspect that the accumulation of Nugget fouls decreased their defensive intensity which allowed Kobe to even out his FG%. Prior to that, I saw flops resulting in missed shots, clean strips, and on one occasion traveling.

So you say Kobe is not clutch in one paragraph, and then in the next, you note how he was 9-22 fg going into the 4th. You know he ended up 13 of 28 right? So in the 4th quarter with the Lakers losing, He went 4-6 fg, 9-9 ft, one huge block on Martin when he had an easy dunk, 2 huge assist to Ariza and Fisher, and held Melo, who was blazing hot to a very minuscule 2-5 shooting fourth quarter, after he had torched every other Laker defender the first 3 quarters. If thats not clutch, I dont know what is

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:33 AM
I compared Kobe missing a jumper with making FTs to determine whether or not he was actually being clutch.. Simple enough to understand.

Yeah but at the same time you are bringing in luck as the reason why they won. They were huge on O rebounds the whole game. So I don't see why they got lucky that they got the rebound. And even if Kobe did miss the shot he made it up by NOT screwing up on the FTs. That was clutch in itself.

Also, down the stretch in the 4th qtr comparatively Lebron missed a lot of his shots too tonight. And he even airballed one. So it's very likely that he would have missed that shot at that point too.

So now consider this:

Same situation, i.e they both missed the shot and their team got the O rebound. Who would you pick to hit the FT? Kobe or Lebron?

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 12:35 AM
I have nothing against Lebron but you gotta give Kobe the respect he deserves. If only Lebron can win which he hasn't been able to do yet (lost to Spurs, lost to Cs and now down 0-1 against Magic) then we can say Lebron has achieved a new greatness. Running through weak and injured teams doesn't get the same respect from as what Kobe has achieved during his career.

A major component of greatness includes winning. And Lebron hasn't accomplished that yet. Thats all.

thats convenient to say when kobe was literally carried to championships by shaq...


who was the guys avging 35ppg and 15rpg in the finals...it wasn't kobe

kobe was avg'ing a measly 22ppg...2reb and 3ast..


wing man...

thats how kobe will win a champ, as the wing man

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 12:40 AM
Last post because I'm not interested in walking you through the conversation which is plain enough for most anyone else to follow. These last few posts were about 2 games. The one tonight and the one last night. I could probably dig up plenty of other games in which Kobe nearly shot his team out of a win but that's beyond the scope of this conversation.

I could dig up a numerous games in which he "carried" his team to victory like he did last night. The man had 40 pts, 18 of them in the 4th quarter. You make yourself look like a fool on here with all of your Kobe bashing. Any knowledgable fan of the game would respect his performance last night.

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:41 AM
With regards to Kobe vs. Lebron being clutch. In the last minute of the game Lebron drove to the lane and passed to the open shooters. Kobe took the last jump shot and missed.. it was luck that the Lakers retained possession of the ball and he was able to get to the line to sink in some freebies. I suppose you could call that clutch FT shooting but had the Lakers not retained possession it would have been a moot point. Had he made that previous jump shot that would have been clutch. I don't see how anyone can say these games in the last minuntes prove that Kobe is more clutch than Lebron.

With regards to Kobe's overall performance. His shooting was poor prior to the 4th quarter. IIRC, at one point he was shooting 9/23 and that probably wasn't the worst of it. I suspect that the accumulation of Nugget fouls decreased their defensive intensity which allowed Kobe to even out his FG%. Prior to that, I saw flops resulting in missed shots, clean strips, and on one occasion traveling.

And ofcourse Kobe gets no credit. All of a sudden, Kobe shot 4/6 in the 4th qtr because Denver defense slowed down. Just another hater. Because all you can mention is his 9/23 from the 1st 3 quarters.

Edit: Since you are only suspecting, seems like you didn't even watch the game. What a waste of time.

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:43 AM
thats convenient to say when kobe was literally carried to championships by shaq...


who was the guys avging 35ppg and 15rpg in the finals...it wasn't kobe

kobe was avg'ing a measly 22ppg...2reb and 3ast..


wing man...

thats how kobe will win a champ, as the wing man

Thats convenient to say when Lebron carried his team to...

Wait a second, he hasn't even won ONCE.

Hey Lebron, have you seen my THREE CHAMPIONSHIP RINGS? Oh right you won't know what they look like because you haven't won one.

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 12:44 AM
thats convenient to say when kobe was literally carried to championships by shaq...


who was the guys avging 35ppg and 15rpg in the finals...it wasn't kobe

kobe was avg'ing a measly 22ppg...2reb and 3ast..


wing man...

thats how kobe will win a champ, as the wing man

Shaq should have had those numbers playing against the likes of Todd Mccullough and Rik Smits.

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 12:47 AM
thats convenient to say when kobe was literally carried to championships by shaq...


who was the guys avging 35ppg and 15rpg in the finals...it wasn't kobe

kobe was avg'ing a measly 22ppg...2reb and 3ast..


wing man...

thats how kobe will win a champ, as the wing man

You better go check up on your history, Kobe was lights out against the "real" competition back in the early 00's. He took over games against Portland, San Antonio, Sacramento, which were the real tests for LA(Referring to the Postseason). He avg. close to 30 pts. in most of those series along with 6assts, 6 rebs., and not too mention his 4th quarter performances and lockdown defense. Read up on your history.

JordansBulls
05-21-2009, 12:50 AM
WTF!! What the hell does game 1 of either series have to do with the topic? We have game threads on that already.

JordansBulls
05-21-2009, 12:51 AM
Shaq should have had those numbers playing against the likes of Todd Mccullough and Rik Smits.

Rik Smits was an allstar and he even outplayed Ewing in the 1995 Semifinals.

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 12:56 AM
Rik Smits was an allstar and he even outplayed Ewing in the 1995 Semifinals.

Rik Smits was not an all star in 2000, don't try that, his career was basically over in 2000. That's like saying Gary Payton was at the top of his game in the 04 series against Detroit, which was far from the case.

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 12:57 AM
It's funny to see all the Kobe haters jump on Lebronwagon. If it's not AI, then Wade, then T-Mac, then even Nash and now Lebron.

Well all I have seen is others come and go and Kobe stays there on top.

JordansBulls
05-21-2009, 12:59 AM
Rik Smits was not an all star in 2000, don't try that, his career was basically over in 2000.

I know that, I thought you meant that Rik Smits was just some scrub player in his career. That is what I was referring to.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 01:03 AM
Rik Smits was an allstar and he even outplayed Ewing in the 1995 Semifinals.

:laugh2:You do remember that he retired in 2000 at the age of 33 right? You do know he averaged 23 minutes a game that year right? You do remember that he only averaged 13 points and 5 rebounds on 48% shooting, and was never known as a defensive player right? You do know saying he outplayed Ewing in 1995 in the semifinals is not a great feat right?

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:13 AM
Shaq should have had those numbers playing against the likes of Todd Mccullough and Rik Smits.

rik smits was a great player...and besides maybe yao and dwight, he could gaurd shaq better than any other center in the game today...so great point...you're not afraid to prove your own ignorance to others are you

kingkobe
05-21-2009, 01:19 AM
rik smits was a great player...and besides maybe yao and dwight, he could gaurd shaq better than any other center in the game today...so great point...you're not afraid to prove your own ignorance to others are you

Did you just totally ignore the other 5 posts after that showing how Rick Smits was washed up in 2000? In your words:

"you're not afraid to prove your own ignorance to others are you"

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 01:23 AM
rik smits was a great player...and besides maybe yao and dwight, he could gaurd shaq better than any other center in the game today...so great point...you're not afraid to prove your own ignorance to others are you

Averaging 15 pts 6 rebounds and 1 block on 50% shooting over a 12 year career constitutes a great player?????:speechless:

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:23 AM
It's funny to see all the Kobe haters jump on Lebronwagon. If it's not AI, then Wade, then T-Mac, then even Nash and now Lebron.

Well all I have seen is others come and go and Kobe stays there on top.

well he's not on top anymore...
as is apparent to anyone that isn't extremely biased

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:26 AM
Did you just totally ignore the other 5 posts after that showing how Rick Smits was washed up in 2000? In your words:

"you're not afraid to prove your own ignorance to others are you"

how about you refute what i said..how am i proving my own ignorance if nobody can even refute what i said...

rik smits may have been a washed up version of his formal self, but could you still name another center besides dwight and yao that plays today and could defend a prime shaq better than smits..


and besides all this, lets get back to the point...whether rik smits was washed up, shaq still carried the lakers to the championship...

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 01:29 AM
how about you refute what i said..how am i proving my own ignorance if nobody can even refute what i said...

rik smits may have been a washed up version of his formal self, but could you still name another center besides dwight and yao that plays today and could defend a prime shaq better than smits..


and besides all this, lets get back to the point...whether rik smits was washed up, shaq still carried the lakers to the championship...

He was not washed up. He just was never any good. I showed his numbers. He was never known as a defensive stopper. Just a big slow center that could hit a mid range jumper. Plain and simple, he was an average player at best

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:29 AM
Averaging 15 pts 6 rebounds and 1 block on 50% shooting over a 12 year career constitutes a great player?????:speechless:

a 7'4" center with good longevity whom avg'd upwards of 15ppg and 7rpg for multiple season would constitute as a pretty damn good center...

yao is the second best center in the league today, and i would say smits is better. smits stayed on the court better than yao, scored as much as him, rebounds as much as him, lower turnover rate, and smits played in an era with much more dominant centers

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:31 AM
He was not washed up. He just was never any good. I showed his numbers. He was never known as a defensive stopper. Just a big slow center that could hit a mid range jumper. Plain and simple, he was an average player at best

name three centers better than him today...exactly?

you got dwight, and POSSIBLY yao.


and besides this...shaq still carried kobe didn't he...whether smits was gaurding shaq or not...shaq carried kobe to titles...stick to the topic buddy?

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 01:32 AM
how about you refute what i said..how am i proving my own ignorance if nobody can even refute what i said...

rik smits may have been a washed up version of his formal self, but could you still name another center besides dwight and yao that plays today and could defend a prime shaq better than smits..


and besides all this, lets get back to the point...whether rik smits was washed up, shaq still carried the lakers to the championship...

I think that was the point they were trying to make. They were pointing out that Kobe carried the Lakers past the best competition they played those years. He dominated the Kings and Spurs in the western finals. Which everyone knows was the real finals. Any of those teams would have beaten the Pacers, Sixers and Nets those years. Those finals series were more of an exhibition. Everybody already knew who was going to win

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:34 AM
so yao is an average big

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 01:36 AM
rik smits was a great player...and besides maybe yao and dwight, he could gaurd shaq better than any other center in the game today...so great point...you're not afraid to prove your own ignorance to others are you

You are proving your own ignorance by stating that Smits was a great player. He made the all star team occasionally, but I can name 20 centers I would take over him and at the time he faced Shaq, he was 33 and almost out the door. He was a non-factor in the finals and was so inept defensively, that Dale Davis was the primary defender on Shaq. (Davis is 6'10 and was giving up 50 pounds or so compared to O'neal) Next topic.

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 01:37 AM
name three centers better than him today...exactly?

you got dwight, and POSSIBLY yao.


and besides this...shaq still carried kobe didn't he...whether smits was gaurding shaq or not...shaq carried kobe to titles...stick to the topic buddy?

Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Al Jefferson, that's 3.

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 01:39 AM
how about you refute what i said..how am i proving my own ignorance if nobody can even refute what i said...

rik smits may have been a washed up version of his formal self, but could you still name another center besides dwight and yao that plays today and could defend a prime shaq better than smits..


and besides all this, lets get back to the point...whether rik smits was washed up, shaq still carried the lakers to the championship...

I think that was the point they were trying to make. They were pointing out that Kobe carried the Lakers past the best competition they played those years. He dominated the Kings and Spurs in the western finals. Which everyone knows was the real finals. Any of those teams would have beaten the Pacers, Sixers and Nets those years. Those finals series were more of an exhibition. Everybody already knew who was going to win

:clap: Exactly my point.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 01:39 AM
name three centers better than him today...exactly?

you got dwight, and POSSIBLY yao.


and besides this...shaq still carried kobe didn't he...whether smits was gaurding shaq or not...shaq carried kobe to titles...stick to the topic buddy?

Off the top of my head, Shaq,Duncan, Gasol, J Oneal, Al Jefferson, Nene and probably Brooke Lopez. And off defense, all those guys except Gasol, but I would add Dalembert, Camby, Perkins, Okafor and Oden.

And the topic is not about who carried the Lakers to the rings. So why dont you stay on topic................ buddy?

madiaz3
05-21-2009, 01:44 AM
Carried would imply carrying most of the load. 29.5 ppg average to 28.5ppg average in the playoffs wouldn't exactly define carrying.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:46 AM
how about you refute what i said..how am i proving my own ignorance if nobody can even refute what i said...

rik smits may have been a washed up version of his formal self, but could you still name another center besides dwight and yao that plays today and could defend a prime shaq better than smits..


and besides all this, lets get back to the point...whether rik smits was washed up, shaq still carried the lakers to the championship...

I think that was the point they were trying to make. They were pointing out that Kobe carried the Lakers past the best competition they played those years. He dominated the Kings and Spurs in the western finals. Which everyone knows was the real finals. Any of those teams would have beaten the Pacers, Sixers and Nets those years. Those finals series were more of an exhibition. Everybody already knew who was going to win



in 2002 series vs kings
game 1
kobe game 1 30pts 6reb 5ast 12-26
shaq game 1 26pts 9reb 0ast 11-21 shooting

game2
kobe 22pts 6reb 2ast 9-21
shaq 35pts 12reb 1ast 15-27

game3

kobe 22pts 2reb 3ast 8-24
shaq 20pts 19reb 4ast 9-20

game4

kobe 25pts 4reb 2ast 12-26
shaq 27pts 18reb 3ast 9-22

game 5
kobe 30pts 5reb 3ast 11-29
shaq 28pts 7reb 0ast 14-18

game 6
kobe 31pts 11reb 5ast 10-20
shaq 41pts 17reb 1ast 14-25

game 7
kobe 30pts 10reb 7ast 10-26
shaq 35pts 13reb 2ast 12-25


evidence proves kobe wasn't carrying the lakers in this series atleast. shaq still was, though kobe carried more weight than in the next round

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:47 AM
Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Al Jefferson, that's 3.

al jefferson hasn't even played 2 full seasons and hes already better than smits..gotta love it

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 01:49 AM
a 7'4" center with good longevity whom avg'd upwards of 15ppg and 7rpg for multiple season would constitute as a pretty damn good center...

yao is the second best center in the league today, and i would say smits is better. smits stayed on the court better than yao, scored as much as him, rebounds as much as him, lower turnover rate, and smits played in an era with much more dominant centers

You got to be f'in with me. Yao has averaged 19 pts, 9 reb. and 2 blks a game for his career, shooting 53% He has averaged 33 minutes a game, compared to Smits who only played 26 minutes a game for his whole career. He only averaged 30 minutes twice in 12 years.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:49 AM
You are proving your own ignorance by stating that Smits was a great player. He made the all star team occasionally, but I can name 20 centers I would take over him and at the time he faced Shaq, he was 33 and almost out the door. He was a non-factor in the finals and was so inept defensively, that Dale Davis was the primary defender on Shaq. (Davis is 6'10 and was giving up 50 pounds or so compared to O'neal) Next topic.

i got ahead of myself smits was good player, making the allstar team occassionally is bad...

lakers fans are super high on andrew bynum. and i'd be surprised if he EVER makes the all star team

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 01:51 AM
[QUOTE=DODGERS&LAKERS;9543807]



in 2002 series vs kings
game 1
kobe game 1 30pts 6reb 5ast 12-26
shaq game 1 26pts 9reb 0ast 11-21 shooting

game2
kobe 22pts 6reb 2ast 9-21
shaq 35pts 12reb 1ast 15-27

game3

kobe 22pts 2reb 3ast 8-24
shaq 20pts 19reb 4ast 9-20

game4

kobe 25pts 4reb 2ast 12-26
shaq 27pts 18reb 3ast 9-22

game 5
kobe 30pts 5reb 3ast 11-29
shaq 28pts 7reb 0ast 14-18

game 6
kobe 31pts 11reb 5ast 10-20
shaq 41pts 17reb 1ast 14-25

game 7
kobe 30pts 10reb 7ast 10-26
shaq 35pts 13reb 2ast 12-25


evidence proves kobe wasn't carrying the lakers in this series atleast. shaq still was, though kobe carried more weight than in the next round

Shaq was dominant no question, but Kobe was more than a sidekick. He was a no. 1 option playing as the 2nd option to O'neal. You can't name too many 2nd options that averaged 30, 5, 6 and had the ability to take over games in the 4th quarter.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:51 AM
Off the top of my head, Shaq,Duncan, Gasol, J Oneal, Al Jefferson, Nene and probably Brooke Lopez. And off defense, all those guys except Gasol, but I would add Dalembert, Camby, Perkins, Okafor and Oden.

And the topic is not about who carried the Lakers to the rings. So why dont you stay on topic................ buddy?

you're crazy my friend there is not way brooke lopez is not better than smits....dalembert :rolleyes:...camby...how many games did he play this year?

okafor? lol....oden...even more of a lol...

you don't know what you're talking about

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:53 AM
[QUOTE=montazingmvp;9543941]

Shaq was dominant no question, but Kobe was more than a sidekick. He was a no. 1 option playing as the 2nd option to O'neal. You can't name too many 2nd options that averaged 30, 5, 6 and had the ability to take over games in the 4th quarter.

well kobe didn't avg 30ppg and he was doing so with pretty poor shooting...

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 01:53 AM
i got ahead of myself smits was good player, making the allstar team occassionally is bad...

lakers fans are super high on andrew bynum. and i'd be surprised if he EVER makes the all star team

Smits was a good player that's not the argument here, the argument is that he wasn't a hall of fame center and when Shaq played against him in 2000, he was not close to being half the player he was in 94. He was washed up that year.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:55 AM
You got to be f'in with me. Yao has averaged 19 pts, 9 reb. and 2 blks a game for his career, shooting 53% He has averaged 33 minutes a game, compared to Smits who only played 26 minutes a game for his whole career. He only averaged 30 minutes twice in 12 years.

and how many season has yao completed thus far in his career...maybe he should be playing so many minutes...seeing as he can't stay on the court...

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:56 AM
Smits was a good player that's not the argument here, the argument is that he wasn't a hall of fame center and when Shaq played against him in 2000, he was not close to being half the player he was in 94. He was washed up that year.

i never said smits was even close to a hall of fame player....

but you have not yet taken into consideration that smits was competing against much better centers than guys are today

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 01:57 AM
you're crazy my friend there is not way brooke lopez is not better than smits....dalembert :rolleyes:...camby...how many games did he play this year?

okafor? lol....oden...even more of a lol...

you don't know what you're talking about

If you noticed, I put those guys as centers who were better than Smits defensively alone. The original players I listed are better than him both offensively and defensively.

And yes, Dalembert, Camby, Okafor and Oden are far better defenders now, than Smits ever was. You dont know what your talking about.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 01:58 AM
Smits was a good player that's not the argument here, the argument is that he wasn't a hall of fame center and when Shaq played against him in 2000, he was not close to being half the player he was in 94. He was washed up that year.

well one dude was saying okafor, oden, and DALEMBERT are better than he was so i thought i should clear things up there.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:00 AM
If you noticed, I put those guys as centers who were better than Smits defensively alone. The original players I listed are better than him both offensively and defensively.

And yes, Dalembert, Camby, Okafor and Oden are far better defenders now, than Smits ever was. You dont know what your talking about.

camby played in about 10 games this year...he isn't better at anything than anyone right now. and smits was competing against better competition so its hard to determine if he is a better defender or not...

its a lot easier to guard the likes of jeff foster, dalembert etc etc, than it is charles oakley, patrick ewing, olajuwon, etc etc

the average starting center in the 90's is much better than today...dwight howard wouldn't even be top 3 centers in the 90's and he's the clear cut best right now

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:02 AM
[QUOTE=Lakersfan2483;9543973]

well kobe didn't avg 30ppg and he was doing so with pretty poor shooting...

In 00-01, he avg. 29.4 a game in the playoffs, in 02-03 he avg. 32ppg in the playoffs on .464pct shooting which is very good for a shooting guard. In 01-02 he avg. 27 a game in the playoffs, now tell me how many 2nd option guys give a team that type of production?

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:04 AM
[QUOTE=montazingmvp;9543986]

In 00-01, he avg. 29.4 a game in the playoffs, in 02-03 he avg. 32ppg in the playoffs on .464pct shooting which is very good for a shooting guard.

.464 for a sg is maybe slightly above avg....not very good...

and in the series i mentioned he wasn't shooting that which you said he was carrying the lakers

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 02:06 AM
camby played in about 10 games this year...he isn't better at anything than anyone right now. and smits was competing against better competition so its hard to determine if he is a better defender or not...

its a lot easier to guard the likes of jeff foster, dalembert etc etc, than it is charles oakley, patrick ewing, olajuwon, etc etc

the average starting center in the 90's is much better than today...dwight howard wouldn't even be top 3 centers in the 90's and he's the clear cut best right now

:speechless: Now I know your f'in with me. Charles Oakley? You do know he averaged 9 pts a game right? You do know he was a center that only shot 47 % from the field right?

Man, you have gone too far with the jokes. I'm going to bed. Gnite :) Thanks for the laughs

ATL_Representa
05-21-2009, 02:07 AM
People kill me with the lebron is better than kobe talk..They really do..After these 2 games if people cant see that kobe is the best player in the nba, They never will..

Kobe is a legend!!

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:07 AM
no doubt, kobe is a great second option...maybe the best ever...(maybe pippen)

not sure if he is a great first option though. he's still definitely a good one though...i would constitute a great first option as getting one ring atleast...maybe he will this year...we will see

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:08 AM
:speechless: Now I know your f'in with me. Charles Oakley? You do know he averaged 9 pts a game right? You do know he was a center that only shot 47 % from the field right?

Man, you have gone too far with the jokes. I'm going to bed. Gnite :) Thanks for the laughs

charles oakley was an exceptional defender...i guess that doesn't matter though?

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:10 AM
People kill me with the lebron is better than kobe talk..They really do..After these 2 games if people cant see that kobe is the best player in the nba, They never will..

Kobe is a legend!!

how has kobe been significantly better than lebron in "these 2 games"...lebron has been doing a lot more for his team than kobe....unfortunately for lebron, kobe's teammates are doing a whole lot more for him than lebrons are for the cavs

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:10 AM
[QUOTE=Lakersfan2483;9544031]

.464 for a sg is maybe slightly above avg....not very good...

and in the series i mentioned he wasn't shooting that which you said he was carrying the lakers

You ignored the point production, and I never said he carried the Lakers, but he was a major factor in their wins. Also, name some shooting guards besides Jordan and West, that can give you that type of scoring and shoot at that pct? My whole point is, Shaq was the main guy during those title runs, but don't act like Kobe wasn't a major factor in them winning titles. He was more than just some sidekick, he was a major player on the team and was the main guy in the 4th quarter of games.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:12 AM
:speechless: Now I know your f'in with me. Charles Oakley? You do know he averaged 9 pts a game right? You do know he was a center that only shot 47 % from the field right?

Man, you have gone too far with the jokes. I'm going to bed. Gnite :) Thanks for the laughs

charles oakley is miles better than, dalembert, okafor or any of those other "great" current defender you named...

you should probably go to bed...you haven't been right about...anything yet

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 02:12 AM
no doubt, kobe is a great second option...maybe the best ever...(maybe pippen)

not sure if he is a great first option though. he's still definitely a good one though...i would constitute a great first option as getting one ring atleast...maybe he will this year...we will see

You do know that he has only had 4 years in his entire career to have a chance at winning as the number 1 option right? He finally started to have a team built around him at the age of 26. Most great players have had a great team built around them by the age of 23 or 24. Kobe finally got a team built around him with talent at age 29. Big difference in scenarios. And in those 4 years, he already lead a team to the finals. He could very well win a ring in his 5th year as the number one option. Thats pretty good for a player who's team started from scratch 8 years into his career. But I guess nobody will ever admit that fact right?

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:13 AM
how has kobe been significantly better than lebron in "these 2 games"...lebron has been doing a lot more for his team than kobe....unfortunately for lebron, kobe's teammates are doing a whole lot more for him than lebrons are for the cavs

LOL. Is that a joke. Mo williams had 17pts and 5 assts for the Cavs, Fisher had 13 pts, that's the guard spot. Power Forwards: Gasol had 13pts, 14 rebs, Varejao had 14pts and 8 rebs. Centers: Illgauskas: 10pts, 10 rebs for the Cavs, Bynum 6pts and 5rebs. So, what does that tell me, both guys had the same type of help, so stop with the excuses. :eyebrow:

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:15 AM
[QUOTE=montazingmvp;9544039]

You ignored the point production, and I never said he carried the Lakers, but he was a major factor in their wins. Also, name some shooting guards besides Jordan and West, that can give you that type of scoring and shoot at that pct? My whole point is, Shaq was the main guy during those title runs, but don't act like Kobe wasn't a major factor in them winning titles. He was more than just some sidekick, he was a major player on the team and was the main guy in the 4th quarter of games.

clyde drexler, dominique wilkins, reggie miller (lower scoring totals though

ATL_Representa
05-21-2009, 02:15 AM
For one...Look at his free throw shooting throughout the game and the end..He wasnt clutch when he needed to be tonight and flat out didnt get the job done..

And at the end when he passed it 2 delonte for the three...Do you think jordan or kobe wouldve passed it in that situation??..HELL NO!!!..Great players want the ball when it matters..He didnt!

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 02:16 AM
charles oakley was an exceptional defender...i guess that doesn't matter though?

Than I guess you should not be giving the benefit of doubt about his defense by saying its a lot easier to guard Dalembert than to guard the great Charles Oakley, Ewing, Olajuwon etc etc

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:17 AM
no doubt, kobe is a great second option...maybe the best ever...(maybe pippen)

not sure if he is a great first option though. he's still definitely a good one though...i would constitute a great first option as getting one ring atleast...maybe he will this year...we will see

So, based on that logic, Lebron, K. Malone, C. Paul, Howard, Barkley, etc... are all not good no. 1 options because they have not won a ring and they are no. 1 guys.:eyebrow:

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:19 AM
[QUOTE=Lakersfan2483;9544068]

clyde drexler, dominique wilkins, reggie miller (lower scoring totals though

Nique was a small forward. Miller and Drexler were great players, but they aren't on Kobe's level. By the way, Drexler's career shooting average in the playoffs is .447 pct. and he avg. 21 a game. Miller's career playoff shooting average is .449 and he avg. 21 a game for his career. Kobe's career playoff shooting avg. is .450pct and he's avg. 25 a game.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:22 AM
LOL. Is that a joke. Mo williams had 17pts and 5 assts for the Cavs, Fisher had 13 pts, that's the guard spot. Power Forwards: Gasol had 13pts, 14 rebs, Varejao had 14pts and 8 rebs. Centers: Illgauskas: 10pts, 10 rebs for the Cavs, Bynum 6pts and 5rebs. So, what does that tell me, both guys had the same type of help, so stop with the excuses. :eyebrow:

mo williams shot 6-19

fisher shot 5-13 (big difference)

lakers besides kobe scored 65 points

lebrons teammates scored 57 points.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:23 AM
For one...Look at his free throw shooting throughout the game and the end..He wasnt clutch when he needed to be tonight and flat out didnt get the job done..

And at the end when he passed it 2 delonte for the three...Do you think jordan or kobe wouldve passed it in that situation??..HELL NO!!!..Great players want the ball when it matters..He didnt!

yes jordan would've passed to the player with the best shot...if he thought he would've had the best shot he would take...

jordan has made huge passes in the finals for game winners, like when he passed to steve kerr in the finals...or when he passed to bill paxson? in the conference finals...might be wrong about that one

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:25 AM
mo williams shot 6-19

fisher shot 5-13 (big difference)

lakers besides kobe scored 65 points

lebrons teammates scored 57 points.

Stop with the excuses, so the fact that Kobe got 8 more pts from his teammates was the difference. lol. The Cavs had a 15 point lead at half time and lost it, the Lakers trailed the entire game until the 4th quarter when Bryant scored 18 of his 40 pts.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:26 AM
So, based on that logic, Lebron, K. Malone, C. Paul, Howard, Barkley, etc... are all not good no. 1 options because they have not won a ring and they are no. 1 guys.:eyebrow:

yup, many of them are great players, but not great 1 options...although barkley had jordan in his way...which makes it tougher...in other eras im sure barkley would've gotten a ring with the same team around him.

howard is definitely not a good number 1 option...because he can't take over a game towards the end...chris paul has time to prove his worth...but his defense is really lacking

ATL_Representa
05-21-2009, 02:27 AM
Not down by one in that situation...He wouldve drove to the basketball and got the bucket and 1..

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:27 AM
yup, many of them are great players, but not great 1 options...although barkley had jordan in his way...which makes it tougher...in other eras im sure barkley would've gotten a ring with the same team around him.

howard is definitely not a good number 1 option...because he can't take over a game towards the end...chris paul has time to prove his worth...but his defense is really lacking

You failed to mention Lebron, he has not won a title as the main guy., nor did Karl Malone.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:28 AM
Stop with the excuses, so the fact that Kobe got 8 more pts from his teammates was the difference. lol. The Cavs had a 15 point lead at half time and lost it, the Lakers trailed the entire game until the 4th quarter when Bryant scored 18 of his 40 pts.

can you really make the argument that kobe has the better individual performance...

lebron made 2/3 of his shots, kobe didn't even hit half...kobe's teammate pulled more weight than lebrons...its an observation not an excuse...

and to be honest i'm pretty non-bias in this argument, unlike you....i could careless about lebron or kobe...in fact i want to see a magic, nuggetts matchup..i always go for the underdogs...unless its the warriors ( in which case they're usually the underdogs anyway)

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2009, 02:29 AM
You do know that he has only had 4 years in his entire career to have a chance at winning as the number 1 option right? He finally started to have a team built around him at the age of 26. Most great players have had a great team built around them by the age of 23 or 24. Kobe finally got a team built around him with talent at age 29. Big difference in scenarios. And in those 4 years, he already lead a team to the finals. He could very well win a ring in his 5th year as the number one option. Thats pretty good for a player who's team started from scratch 8 years into his career. But I guess nobody will ever admit that fact right?

Hate to quote myself but, montazingmvp wants to argue every fact, will you admit that this statement is true?

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:30 AM
You failed to mention Lebron, he has not won a title as the main guy., nor did Karl Malone.

karl malone also had jordan in his way...that utah team imo would easily win 2 rings right now if they were playing....and lebron also has time to prove his worth...i'd be surprised if he never wins a ring as the 1 option...but until he does he is not a great number 1 option...just a very good one...

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:32 AM
can you really make the argument that kobe has the better individual performance...

lebron made 2/3 of his shots, kobe didn't even hit half...kobe's teammate pulled more weight than lebrons...its an observation not an excuse...

and to be honest i'm pretty non-bias in this argument, unlike you....i could careless about lebron or kobe...in fact i want to see a magic, nuggetts matchup..i always go for the underdogs...unless its the warriors ( in which case they're usually the underdogs anyway)

So, it's Lebron's teammates fault that they lost the game? I wasn't stating whose performance was better, just merely pointing out facts, Cleveland led for most of the game, in fact they were up by 15 at the half. Fact. LA trailed for most of the game, until the 4th quarter. Fact. Cleveland didn't lose because of Lebron's lack of support, they just got outplayed and could not get stops.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:34 AM
[QUOTE=montazingmvp;9544087]

Nique was a small forward. Miller and Drexler were great players, but they aren't on Kobe's level. By the way, Drexler's career shooting average in the playoffs is .447 pct. and he avg. 21 a game. Miller's career playoff shooting average is .449 and he avg. 21 a game for his career. Kobe's career playoff shooting avg. is .450pct and he's avg. 25 a game.

i would argue drexler and kobe, though it is very debatable and i'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me...

drexler played a lot of playoff games when he was older so it brought his avg's down, i believe...miller took a lot of threes so his avg wasn't going to be extremely high, but .450 is pretty damn good for a primarily 3pt shooter...kobe is definitely better than miller though...not as good of a shooter though

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-21-2009, 02:35 AM
i totally agree with West

once he gets that consistent J, it'll be all up to his teammates to see how many rings he can get.
I mean the greats are only so great. they need help. thats why guys like Wilt, Big O, and Jerry West have only 1 ring, and a whole bunch of others have 0

Imagine if Lebron had another all star on his team.

Jordan had Pippen.

Kobe has Gasol right now.

If Lebron had another all star calibur player...I dont think the Cavs would lose...ever.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-21-2009, 02:37 AM
karl malone also had jordan in his way...that utah team imo would easily win 2 rings right now if they were playing....and lebron also has time to prove his worth...i'd be surprised if he never wins a ring as the 1 option...but until he does he is not a great number 1 option...just a very good one...

Are you saying that Lebron is not a great number 1 option...just a very good one.

I hope I misunderstood you or something.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:37 AM
Hate to quote myself but, montazingmvp wants to argue every fact, will you admit that this statement is true?

yeah that statement is true...but mj didn't really have a strong team around him until his 5th season in the nba...he was carrying his team up until that point...

kobe has time to prove himself..after all mj started going off around kobe's age, now

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:37 AM
Imagine if Lebron had another all star on his team.

Jordan had Pippen.

Kobe has Gasol right now.

If Lebron had another all star calibur player...I dont think the Cavs would lose...ever.

Lebron has Mo Williams (made the all-star team this year), Big Z (former all-star), Ben Wallace (4 time defensive player of the year, former all-star, still a good role player. Wally Sczerbiak (former all-star player)., he has a good team, you don't win 66 games without having help.

ATL_Representa
05-21-2009, 02:38 AM
Imagine if Lebron had another all star on his team.

Jordan had Pippen.

Kobe has Gasol right now.

If Lebron had another all star calibur player...I dont think the Cavs would lose...ever.




Do ya homework..Mo williams is an all-star!

Lakersfan2483
05-21-2009, 02:39 AM
[QUOTE=Lakersfan2483;9544100]

i would argue drexler and kobe, though it is very debatable and i'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me...

drexler played a lot of playoff games when he was older so it brought his avg's down, i believe...miller took a lot of threes so his avg wasn't going to be extremely high, but .450 is pretty damn good for a primarily 3pt shooter...kobe is definitely better than miller though...not as good of a shooter though

No one with basketball knowledge what put Drexler over Kobe, that's not even a legit debate. Most people have Kobe ranked right behind Jordan in terms of shooting guards all time. I could understand if you argued Jerry West, but not Drexler, not even close.

montazingmvp
05-21-2009, 02:39 AM
So, it's Lebron's teammates fault that they lost the game? I wasn't stating whose performance was better, just merely pointing out facts, Cleveland led for most of the game, in fact they were up by 15 at the half. Fact. LA trailed for most of the game, until the 4th quarter. Fact. Cleveland didn't lose because of Lebron's lack of support, they just got outplayed and could not get stops.

i don't think lebron could have done much more for his team to win that game...maybe hit 2 more freethrows...lebron played pretty good d in the game...it came down to rashard hitting extremely clutch jumpers and mo and delonte missing theirs when lebron opened up space for them