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D Roses Bulls
05-04-2009, 07:11 PM
ive asked this question quite a bit, but really havent gotten a strait answer. when the Magic signed McGrady and hill back in 2000. If they didnt trade ben wallace that summer and let billups go. They drafted Mike Miller that season. now my question is and i know its hypothetical and we get enough of them on here but if the magic had signed those guys and was able to have a core of billups, Mcgrady, a healthy Grant Hill, and Ben Wallace back then with Mike Miller coming off the bench when he was still very good. would they have been able to win a couple championships in a three or 4 year period before billups and wallaces contracts ranout and if they had developed like they did in detroit ?

I always said they could of won two and i think taking down the lakers back then because wallace was came into his prime that season he was traded and we seen what he use to do. Billups started to become a top point guard and a healthy gran hill back was top 3 or 4 best player in the league and we all know what McGrady use to do. im just wondering and i know its hypothetical, but ive asked a lot of people this and none of them could really give me a good answer.

pd7631
05-04-2009, 07:18 PM
ive asked this question quite a bit, but really havent gotten a strait answer. when the Magic signed McGrady and hill back in 2000. If they didnt trade ben wallace that summer and let billups go. They drafted Mike Miller that season and signed Hedo to MLE next year. now my question is and i know its hypothetical and we get enough of them on here but if the magic had signed those guys and was able to have a core of billups, Mcgrady, a healthy Grant Hill, Hedo Turkalou, and Ben Wallace back then with Mike Miller coming off the bench when he was still very good. would they have been able to in a couple championships in a three or 4 year period before billups and wallaces contracts ran out and they were eligible for real big money?

I always said they could of won two and i think taking down the lakers back then because wallace was came into his prime that season he was traded and we seen what he use to do. Billups started to become a top point guard and a healthy gran hill back was top 3 or 4 best player in the league and we all know what McGrady use to do. im just wondering and i know its hypothetical, but ive asked a lot of people this and none of them could really give me a good answer.


They didn't sign Hedo until 2004.

pd7631
05-04-2009, 07:21 PM
to answer the question...

I don't think they would've won any championships. Billups and Ben Wallace were nobodies until they got to Detroit, so I don't think there's any reason to believe they would've been all that good had they stayed on the Magic. But with a healthy Grant Hill in his prime you never know. I'm sure they would've been really good for awhile, but I don't think they would have won any championships.

D Roses Bulls
05-04-2009, 07:21 PM
They didn't sign Hedo until 2004.

ooopppsss your right my bad, i dont know what i was thinking. ill edit that haha

ggg
05-04-2009, 07:22 PM
as lucky magics were in the 90's i thought they were as cursed. and until now they r still cursed. Dwight's team isnt legit imo.

D Roses Bulls
05-04-2009, 07:25 PM
to answer the question...

I don't think they would've won any championships. Billups and Ben Wallace were nobodies until they got to Detroit, so I don't think there's any reason to believe they would've been all that good had they stayed on the Magic. But with a healthy Grant Hill in his prime you never know. I'm sure they would've been really good for awhile, but I don't think they would have won any championships.

yeah, i agree with the sense with wallace and billups. like i said its a what if scenario, but i believe billups just never had the players around him really till he went to detroit and i think with mcgrady and hill it might of made him into what he was in detroit. wallace though, detroit actually let him play, if the magic did and i believe they would of have cause they were very thin up front most of the time mcgrady was there i think he would have developed, but i still they could of won a championship if those guys developed like they did in detroit

pd7631
05-04-2009, 07:29 PM
yeah, i agree with the sense with wallace and billups. like i said its a what if scenario, but i believe billups just never had the players around him really till he went to detroit and i think with mcgrady and hill it might of made him into what he was in detroit. wallace though, detroit actually let him play, if the magic did and i believe they would of have cause they were very thin up front most of the time mcgrady was there i think he would have developed, but i still they could of won a championship if those guys developed like they did in detroit

Yeah if Billups and Wallace were the same guys that they were in Detroit they could've been really good. But the Pistons didn't become a championship team until they got Sheed....so a core of Billups, McGrady, Hill, and Ben Wallace would still be another quality player away from really being a legit championship team.

AntwanN21
05-04-2009, 07:31 PM
probobly not but everything happens for a reason. Had they been good eventually down the road they wouldnt have gotten D12. You could make a million of these what if threads to show how teams couldve been better. Example what if the raptors drafted Igoudala or Brandon Roy. What every happend,happend cant worry to much on what your team couldve done IMO

superkegger
05-04-2009, 07:35 PM
I think that there are too many if's in that situation. If Hill was healthy, if Billups developed, if Ben Wallace became the player he did, if Tmac with those guys around him was as good as he was, if he were healthy, and so on. Too many question marks to really make it a plausibe what if.

Chronz
05-04-2009, 07:49 PM
Billups? That cant be right, Billups was never a part of the Magic.

But yes the Magic made several blunders during Tmac's era with the magic. Choosing to keep Bo Outlaw over the younger more athletic Ben Wallace was one of them. They kept Bo for sentimental reasons and Ben Wallace transformed Detroits defense from day 1. Considering defense was what kept the Magic from contending in Tmac's day, Ben wouldve been a key cog. The biggest consequence of having a healthy Hill and Ben wouldve been the Magic's draft patterns might have actually gotten lucky once. They had a great future when Tmac got there, something like 8 draft picks in a 4 year span, but they blew them all, not a single one of their selections ended up contributing. As the years past and the supporting cast aged, it was no surprise it finally came crashing down that one horrific year.

But to answer the question there was an article/blog post about this very same issue (practically). It had the projected winning% and stats of all the players throughout that time span. It was a what if on Grant Hill being healthy:

http://www.thirdquartercollapse.com/2009/3/12/794556/ultimate-what-if-grant-hil

In their best season (Their first) together they win 53 games with a 70% chance of winning in the first round, 42% of winning the 2nd, 22 of making it to the Finals, and an 8.4% chance winning it all. They do win 50+ several years but those projections arent factoring in the contributions of a DPOY type player, had he never left.

The Magic are in a better chance to win with Dwight now so perhaps its best they never won.

Chronz
05-04-2009, 07:52 PM
I think that there are too many if's in that situation. If Hill was healthy, if Billups developed, if Ben Wallace became the player he did, if Tmac with those guys around him was as good as he was, if he were healthy, and so on. Too many question marks to really make it a plausibe what if.

Billups was never on the team, what wouldve prevented Ben from becoming who he did, he was well on his way with the Magic. I dont know where he got Billups from. And Tmac wouldve been great no matter what, all he needed was some help. Sad that he was robbed of it, one of the biggest disappointments in my NBA lifetime was that him and KG never developed the intense rivalry vs Kobe and Duncan that was so promising early in their careers.

superkegger
05-04-2009, 08:02 PM
Billups was never on the team, what wouldve prevented Ben from becoming who he did, he was well on his way with the Magic. I dont know where he got Billups from. And Tmac wouldve been great no matter what, all he needed was some help. Sad that he was robbed of it, one of the biggest disappointments in my NBA lifetime was that him and KG never developed the intense rivalry vs Kobe and Duncan that was so promising early in their careers.

Right, I'm just saying that when you look at how often small moves can change the fate of a franchise, who knows what would have happened, and in this scenario, there are way way way too many variables to try and consider what may or may not have happened.

pd7631
05-04-2009, 08:03 PM
Billups was never on the team, what wouldve prevented Ben from becoming who he did, he was well on his way with the Magic. I dont know where he got Billups from. And Tmac wouldve been great no matter what, all he needed was some help. Sad that he was robbed of it, one of the biggest disappointments in my NBA lifetime was that him and KG never developed the intense rivalry vs Kobe and Duncan that was so promising early in their careers.

yes he was


Billups then played for the Denver Nuggets, who traded him to the Orlando Magic. He was on the injured list until season's end and never played a game for Orlando (he was included on the season-ending team photo, wearing jersey number 2).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauncey_Billups

Chronz
05-04-2009, 08:16 PM
Right, I'm just saying that when you look at how often small moves can change the fate of a franchise, who knows what would have happened, and in this scenario, there are way way way too many variables to try and consider what may or may not have happened.
What do you mean, Im pretty confident that I KNOW what wouldve happened. The team wouldve been better. Im not good with vague examples, what small moves have changed franchises that are comparable here, and what are these giant variables. I only see the addition of 2 players, that fit the needs that the Magic needed in order to contend (in the East atleast) to a key. Usually when teams do that, they improve far and away.

Chronz
05-04-2009, 08:16 PM
yes he was



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauncey_Billups

Well then damn, sign me up for 1 or 2 titles. At the very least you have some assets to play with. Though Ill have to look at what stage Billups was in his career, he didnt really start progressing until he ended up with Denver then moreso with Minny.

D Roses Bulls
05-04-2009, 10:13 PM
Well then damn, sign me up for 1 or 2 titles. At the very least you have some assets to play with. Though Ill have to look at what stage Billups was in his career, he didnt really start progressing until he ended up with Denver then moreso with Minny.

the year billups left was the year wallace was traded to detroit and that was when they started progressing. i know they made it to the playoffs i think that year or the following year after that with jerry stackhouse. it wasnt untill they traded stackhouse for richard hamilton until the pistons became really good and then they got sheed from atlanta in 04 of course. yeah though i think they could of won a title or so so especially when mcgrady was playing out of his mind and hill was in his prime.

MPScribbles
05-05-2009, 03:43 PM
So with a core of a developed Billups, T-Mac in his prime, a healthy Grant Hill, some fill in the void power forward and Wallace at center I think that they would have certainly gotten to a couple of finals. Probably would have won one or two. Detroit won and this lineup is far better than the team they had that year.

Sly Guy
05-05-2009, 03:57 PM
these what ifs are pointless. You can say what if on any team and list their 5 best players they had for any stretch of time in of a generation and say 'championships would have been abundant!'

superkegger
05-05-2009, 04:00 PM
What do you mean, Im pretty confident that I KNOW what wouldve happened. The team wouldve been better. Im not good with vague examples, what small moves have changed franchises that are comparable here, and what are these giant variables. I only see the addition of 2 players, that fit the needs that the Magic needed in order to contend (in the East atleast) to a key. Usually when teams do that, they improve far and away.

What I'm saying is that we're considering how 5 playes careers would have been different if these things had happened.

If Hill stays healthy.
If they keep Ben Wallace.
If they keep Chauncey.
If they keep Mike Miller.

I'm just saying that's a lot of if's. I'm not saying they wouldn't have been good, but does chauncey become the player he has playing 3rd wheel to two superstar wings? Does Mike Miller really thrive as a backup to two superstar wings? How does the chemistry work out? Who becomes the leader there? Part of Ben Wallaces impact wasn't just his D, but his leadership, does that become as impactful with two superstars like Hill and Tmac? Would the extended years with the playoffs start to take a toll on Tmacs body earlier?

To me there are just too many what if's in this equation to take any real guess at how things would pan out.

Chronz
05-05-2009, 04:55 PM
What I'm saying is that we're considering how 5 playes careers would have been different if these things had happened.

If Hill stays healthy.
If they keep Ben Wallace.
If they keep Chauncey.
If they keep Mike Miller.

I'm just saying that's a lot of if's. I'm not saying they wouldn't have been good, but does chauncey become the player he has playing 3rd wheel to two superstar wings? Does Mike Miller really thrive as a backup to two superstar wings? How does the chemistry work out? Who becomes the leader there? Part of Ben Wallaces impact wasn't just his D, but his leadership, does that become as impactful with two superstars like Hill and Tmac? Would the extended years with the playoffs start to take a toll on Tmacs body earlier?

To me there are just too many what if's in this equation to take any real guess at how things would pan out.
Those are some pretty easy what ifs though.

Billups: Started his development in Minnesota on a team that featured an All-Star at the point in Terrel Brandon, he wouldve played behind Darrel Armstrong in Orlando. With Brandon out he stepped in and took over the team with KG. At the very least had he stayed hes an upgrade over Tyron Lue, Reece Gaines, and whatever bum they had out there. Hes always had a shot so its not like he cant provide big shots. But yea for argument sake lets just say he never became a fraction of the player he was to become, even without him, hes not even the most important what if.

Ben Wallace is by far the easiest one to call, how does a team of nobodies fall 1 game short of missing the playoffs? Defense, and in this case the defensive stats reveal the 2 most prominent players responsible. Ben Wallace and Bo Outlaw led the team in defensive win shares, and Defensive RTG despite coming off the bench for one another, but like I said they went with Bo and he gave them 1 final good season. Without either of them the team defense sunk from top 10, to average (Bo's last good season) to bottom 10 (They were still in the playoffs due to Tmac's historic individual brilliance that year) then finally dropped to the worst defensive team in the league.

On the opposite end Detroit ranked in the bottom 10 (making the playoffs due to Hill's brilliance) then after trading for Ben and losing Hill basically inverting their team efficiency ratings became a top8 defensive team with basically the same team. That was Ben Wallaces impact, had the Magic opted to trade Bo instead the defense never plummets. Likely remaining a top 8 defense throughout his stay.

Mike Miller: The player he was becoming was pretty good in Orlando and not far off from what he did the rest of his career. Even if he somehow never improves upon his 3rd season hes still a sweet shooting forward off the bench. The only what if I see is that his trade never lights a fire under Tmac during that 2nd half run was something to behold (34.5PPG, 6.6Reb, 5.1Ast in 36Games). The again the team wouldnt need him to with more help around him.

Hill staying healthy is the most important What if. Obviously we have to consider that his peak was over, those injuries took away from his game the moment he arrived in Orlando but he was still an All-Star.


We add a DPOY player and a versatile All-Star to a .500 team that for the most part sucked defensively and lacked a 2nd option behind Tmac. We upgrade their bench at the least with a guy who can hit big shots and defend bigger PG's that gave DA trouble in the playoffs (Cassel/Baron/Billups), and Tmac gets to play with his best friend.

The main thing this what if scenario accomplishes is that it completely takes away Detroit's reign of dominance. So theres 1 chip up for grabs, and one less power in the East.

At the very least the Magic become a 58 Win team. They are a 50Win team with Hill alone, adding Ben and Billups adds atleast 8 Wins. How many wins did the Nets average in their time? This team easily makes the Finals.

As for Tmac, him playing more isnt of consequence, him not having to carry the franchise and defend the opposing teams best player every night for 4 years straight is.