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BTownTeamsRKing
05-04-2009, 06:28 PM
So im watchen mike and mike and Jeff Van Gundy is on with them. They were discussing the officiating and when to make calls etc...

baseically, JVG believes that borderline flagrants should not be called in the final 4 minutes of close games. he believes this is not the right way to decide games.

Mr. Vitale completely dissagrees and believes a foul is a foul anytime any place.

So we got 2 very smart basketball guys with 2 opinions that could not be further apart.

Who's side are u on?

I go with JVG. These are grown men playing the game, not kids. Refs should not hand over games with 2 shots and a foul on a close call on a hard foul.

Disclaimer, before u call anyone an idiot, just remember u would be calling Vitale or JVG an idiot.

Chronz
05-04-2009, 07:07 PM
JVG and I have never disagreed about anything, its not going to start now.

superkegger
05-04-2009, 07:11 PM
I'd have to side with JVG. Especially since borderline flagrants usually aren't even flagrants anyhow, just good hard fouls.

pd7631
05-04-2009, 07:12 PM
I dunno, it's a really tough call. I don't think either is wrong in their opinion, but IMO I think if you're gonna call a foul one way in the 1st quarter, it should be called the same at the end of the game.

ggg
05-04-2009, 07:13 PM
so at the three minute mark of the 4th you can whack someone out? JVG got valid arguaments most of the time but i dont believe the spirit of the rule should be like this, that at the 4minute mark, you can "mildly" whack someone out (foul him hard enough that he goes down but not enough for him to get concussions) and get away with it.

SpeeMN
05-04-2009, 07:28 PM
The ONLY way the ref should call it if it is an UNDENIABLE flagrant foul. If a player accidentally hits the other guy across the head or slightly grabs the guy on a fast break, those are HARD fouls and are part of the game of basketball.
I saw the show this morning and completely agree with JVG.

championships
05-04-2009, 07:29 PM
I say let them play

NYtilIdie
05-04-2009, 07:59 PM
JVG speaks the truth and never holds back which is why I enjoy listening to his commentary during games and this another reason why I love him (no homo)

TYoung21
05-05-2009, 04:19 PM
The rules of the game are the same for the season and the playoffs. Therefore if it is a flagrant than it should be called a flagrant. Don't matter what the circumstances are.

GspLAL
05-05-2009, 04:23 PM
The way I see it is, rules are rules. People say refs shouldn't decide the outcome of the game, but what's the player who gets hacked supposed to do, it's like penalizing him for playing aggressive, and the refs not calling a foul late in the game IS deciding the outcome, just in favor of the person who committed the foul.

atl_braves_fan
05-05-2009, 04:29 PM
Generally, I agree with Vitale, but in the rare situation where something is a 50-50 judgment call, I would rather have the refs err on the side of letting them play late in games. However, this debate is exactly why it is very difficult to be a ref in an NBA game though.

superkegger
05-05-2009, 04:36 PM
The rules of the game are the same for the season and the playoffs. Therefore if it is a flagrant than it should be called a flagrant. Don't matter what the circumstances are.

right, but when it's a 50/50 call, and could go either way, then what. The rules leave room for interpretation. Of course they should go by the rule book, but when it's in the grey area, then waht.

pacofunk64
05-05-2009, 04:38 PM
At first I thought let them play & was siding with JVG but the more I thought about it I thought if its a foul then it should be a foul, whether its flagarant or not. It's ultimately a judgment call for the ref but the players still need to know they are not going to be able to get away with certain fouls just because its within a certain timeframe of the game.

downsos
05-05-2009, 04:38 PM
I'm siding with Vitale here.

king4day
05-05-2009, 04:42 PM
This proves JVG isn't a smart coach...and is an idiot.

If you can't call a flagrant in the final 4 minutes of a game, then lets just get our worst player and clobber their best. This way, instead of the refs not deciding the game, it's the players "deciding it".

superkegger
05-05-2009, 04:44 PM
This proves JVG isn't a smart coach...and is an idiot.

If you can't call a flagrant in the final 4 minutes of a game, then lets just get our worst player and clobber their best. This way, instead of the refs not deciding the game, it's the players "deciding it".

He doesn't say one can't be called. But borderline ones, shouldn't be called flagrant is what he's saying. He's not saying obvious flagrants shouldn't be called.

king4day
05-05-2009, 04:47 PM
He doesn't say one can't be called. But borderline ones, shouldn't be called flagrant is what he's saying. He's not saying obvious flagrants shouldn't be called.

Ooooo. Maybe I spoke to soon then.
How about, replay on all flagrant calls. This way they're called evenly.
Since they are pretty rare, it won't delay many games and it'll guarantee (for the most part) that the right call was made.

BTownTeamsRKing
05-05-2009, 04:54 PM
well this is exactly what i expected.

10-9 Vitale.

cant get too much closer. this issue is trully a matter of opinion. And its amazing how people watching the games can be have such differing opinions.

superkegger
05-05-2009, 04:57 PM
Ooooo. Maybe I spoke to soon then.
How about, replay on all flagrant calls. This way they're called evenly.
Since they are pretty rare, it won't delay many games and it'll guarantee (for the most part) that the right call was made.

They have this I believe. Though I think they only have it to decide if it's a flagrant 1 or a flagrant 2. Not sure.


well this is exactly what i expected.

10-9 Vitale.

cant get too much closer. this issue is trully a matter of opinion. And its amazing how people watching the games can be have such differing opinions.

I'm surprised it's close. With the amount of *****ing that goes on with how the refs control the game and decide them and how the nba is rigged by the refs etc... I would think more people would be in favor of the refs not making the call.

KG2TB
05-05-2009, 05:00 PM
JVG can contradict himself a lot and propose some pretty outrageous rules. A flagrant is a flagrant...it all goes back to how borderline it is. If it's more on the weak side of things obviously don't call it, but if it's more towards the extreme side of things you have to call it. I can guarantee you this, of JVG was coaching, and one of his players got 'borderline flagrant fouled' then he would be livid if it wasn't called. The appeal of JVG as an announcer is he says some pretty radical things that he may not even truly whole heartedly believe himself. It makes for good television though. I just can't take JVG too seriously. Definitely agree with Vitale.

TragicallyHip
05-05-2009, 05:07 PM
A foul is a foul. I know I don't want my team's studs to go down because it's not fair to decide a game like that.

TragicallyHip
05-05-2009, 05:08 PM
besides, there's a reason JVG isn't a coach anymore.

DLeeicious
05-05-2009, 05:12 PM
A foul is a foul no matter what the circumstance and no matter who the player. In my opinion.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-05-2009, 05:14 PM
Obviously this thread is kind of in retaliation to the Bulls-Celtics series.

So if you want to see the dirtier/win at all costs team win- then you agree with JVG

If you want to see a team win by showing heart, guts, and class, then you agree with Vitale

Afridi786
05-05-2009, 05:16 PM
JVG contradicts himself too often for me to agree with him, I remember an offensive foul on Perkins for tripping Gordon while setting a screen, he said that the foul call was a good one and was correct because Perkins extended his foot outside his body frame, than 2 seconds later he said that he the call was a bad one...and they should have let them play on.

Ansy
05-05-2009, 05:20 PM
If you can't call a flagrant in the final 4 minutes of a game, then lets just get our worst player and clobber their best. This way, instead of the refs not deciding the game, it's the players "deciding it".

This.

When coaches and players expect to see the game called a certain way, they change their strategy and IMO the game suffers.

BTownTeamsRKing
05-05-2009, 05:21 PM
They have this I believe. Though I think they only have it to decide if it's a flagrant 1 or a flagrant 2. Not sure.



I'm surprised it's close. With the amount of *****ing that goes on with how the refs control the game and decide them and how the nba is rigged by the refs etc... I would think more people would be in favor of the refs not making the call.

i guess, but i knew i would wake up the idealistic fans of psd who want the call made every time, until it is their player giving the foul.

superkegger
05-05-2009, 05:26 PM
i guess, but i knew i would wake up the idealistic fans of psd who want the call made every time, until it is their player giving the foul.

that's true. Had you asked this like 2 months ago, my guess is we'd see a lot more people siding with JVG. While it wasn't flagrant, I remember an immense amount of *****ing when the fouls on granger and lebron happened at the end of that game. A ton of whining about refs deciding games went on and every call in the closing minutes of games like that following week was ridiculously scrutinized and whined about.

Afridi786
05-05-2009, 05:32 PM
Just wait til your opponent pulls this crap on one of your players, I'm sure all your opinions will change....IMO Rondo, I don't know if he's tight with Stern, but the slap to the face and throwing Hinrich into the tables didn't even result in a fine is beyond me.

BTownTeamsRKing
05-05-2009, 05:43 PM
that's true. Had you asked this like 2 months ago, my guess is we'd see a lot more people siding with JVG. While it wasn't flagrant, I remember an immense amount of *****ing when the fouls on granger and lebron happened at the end of that game. A ton of whining about refs deciding games went on and every call in the closing minutes of games like that following week was ridiculously scrutinized and whined about.

:nod:

couldnt agree more. fans are shortsited and will always agree with what is in their team's best interest.

cant lie, that I side with Rondo of course. but ive also been on the other end of it and NEVER expected or wanted a flagrant.

i mean its not even really a question of foul or not. the question is how hard the foul was. 2 FTs and play on.

superkegger
05-05-2009, 05:44 PM
That's the thing, who it happens to shouldn't affect your opinion. Either you think it is or isn't, and it shouldn't change from player to player or team to team. If it had been miller who slapped rondo, and nothing had happened, would you have voted the same way.

NYstateofMinD
05-05-2009, 05:50 PM
This proves JVG isn't a smart coach...and is an idiot.

If you can't call a flagrant in the final 4 minutes of a game, then lets just get our worst player and clobber their best. This way, instead of the refs not deciding the game, it's the players "deciding it".

I agree. You are penalizing the offensive player in this case. A flagrant is a flagrant no matter what, people should not try to hurt others just to save two points. It's a ****** basketball game for god's sake. Why can't people just play by the right way?

NYstateofMinD
05-05-2009, 05:55 PM
Just wait til your opponent pulls this crap on one of your players, I'm sure all your opinions will change....IMO Rondo, I don't know if he's tight with Stern, but the slap to the face and throwing Hinrich into the tables didn't even result in a fine is beyond me.

I agree, Kenyon Martin get's fined 25,000 for his elbow to Dirk, while Rondo doesn't get any. Ridiculous, I'd like to see him try **** playing with me.

BTownTeamsRKing
05-05-2009, 05:55 PM
That's the thing, who it happens to shouldn't affect your opinion. Either you think it is or isn't, and it shouldn't change from player to player or team to team. If it had been miller who slapped rondo, and nothing had happened, would you have voted the same way.

idk who will believe me, but yes i would. when watching the game, would i be a good fan and swear at my tv and yell conspiracy and say that is a travesty if its not a flagrant? absolutely.

but afterwards, i'd look back and say he should have hit the free throws in that specific case. he got the foul, no need for the hard foul.

superkegger
05-05-2009, 06:00 PM
I agree. You are penalizing the offensive player in this case. A flagrant is a flagrant no matter what, people should not try to hurt others just to save two points. It's a ****** basketball game for god's sake. Why can't people just play by the right way?

that's the thing though, it's not always black and white as to whether it is or isn't a flagrant. If it was, there would be no issues with it, at all, ever, or with any NBA officiating. If everything were so clear cut and easy to call, there would be no officiating controversey's except when officials make wrong calls, which would be blatantly obvious to all. The fact is, there are a lot of judgement calls. What one official might see as excessive, another might not. One official might let some chattering at him go, while other's will not. There are a lot of judgement calls and grey area's in the NBA officiating, and it's not always clear which way a call should go.

superkegger
05-05-2009, 06:04 PM
idk who will believe me, but yes i would. when watching the game, would i be a good fan and swear at my tv and yell conspiracy and say that is a travesty if its not a flagrant? absolutely.

but afterwards, i'd look back and say he should have hit the free throws in that specific case. he got the foul, no need for the hard foul.

lol, my question was actually directed at afridi, not you.

NYstateofMinD
05-05-2009, 06:31 PM
that's the thing though, it's not always black and white as to whether it is or isn't a flagrant. If it was, there would be no issues with it, at all, ever, or with any NBA officiating. If everything were so clear cut and easy to call, there would be no officiating controversey's except when officials make wrong calls, which would be blatantly obvious to all. The fact is, there are a lot of judgement calls. What one official might see as excessive, another might not. One official might let some chattering at him go, while other's will not. There are a lot of judgement calls and grey area's in the NBA officiating, and it's not always clear which way a call should go.

You are right there are alot of judgment calls. I would not mind seeing a ref let a player overreact to a foul instead of Ting him in the 4th, but Rondos two plays, and Kobe's play against Battier all should have been at least a flagrant.

WSU Tony
05-05-2009, 06:45 PM
We already treat stars differently, why change the rules in the last 4 minutes? Hell, Wade can get a foul call whenever he wants. Seriously. If Randy Foye does the same exact thing, nothing!

29$JerZ
05-05-2009, 06:47 PM
It going to take a superstar breaking someones neck before the rule becomes engorceable at the end of games.

TopsyTurvy
05-05-2009, 07:56 PM
The key for officiating is consistency. This loosely relates to consistency between games, but generally speaking all NBA officials are the same. The only time there is a difference is when a ref calls a "hard foul" or "playoff foul" a flagrant one early on in a given game and then fails to make the same call at the end.

A good ref will set the bar for fair/foul play early and then stick to that standard for the rest of the game. The aftermath of good officiating is, ironically, that you don't notice the officiating. I have no problem with officials missing a call at the end of the game if it was something they did not call earlier in the game.

That said, I agree with SVG. Direct interpretation of the rules is needed at times, but not when it alters the ebb and flow of the game and specifically when literal interpretation alters the outcome of a game.

Consistent calls - good or bad, foul or no foul - is all any sport asks for.

td0tsfinest
05-05-2009, 08:13 PM
I got to agree with JVG as well. If not the final 4 minutes at least the final two. I rather see a team win with a buzzer beater shot than a friggin' 3 sec in the key violation tech.

Rocket_lover
05-06-2009, 01:13 PM
im wit vitaly or watever the name is...if it was jvg way... jus foul kobe and lebron every possesion...how stupid

dawkinit
05-06-2009, 01:34 PM
the reason why these debates even occur is b/c of people like JVG.

im sorry a foul is a foul... the game has rules. i dont care how or why it seems ok to bend or break them, but thats all your doing is not following teh rules. when you do such things as say "no boderline flagrants in the last 4 minutes" then the lines get blurred. if people know flat out the game would be called THE WAY IT SHOULD BE this situations wouldnt come up. follow the rules *******s and there wont be any debate. a game should be decided based upone who plays it better,not who plays it better when the rules arent being enforced.

BTownTeamsRKing
05-06-2009, 01:37 PM
lol, my question was actually directed at afridi, not you.

lol oh ok

Missing56&33
05-06-2009, 06:50 PM
rules are rules a foul is a foul, be it a flagrant or personal foul, it doesnt matter if its called at the beginning of the game or at the end. just make the right call

IversonIsKrazy
05-06-2009, 07:09 PM
a BORDERLINE flagarent shouldnt be called in the final 4 mins, it should just be a foul. gotta side with JVG.

spartanbear
05-06-2009, 09:24 PM
The key for officiating is consistency. This loosely relates to consistency between games, but generally speaking all NBA officials are the same. The only time there is a difference is when a ref calls a "hard foul" or "playoff foul" a flagrant one early on in a given game and then fails to make the same call at the end.

A good ref will set the bar for fair/foul play early and then stick to that standard for the rest of the game. The aftermath of good officiating is, ironically, that you don't notice the officiating. :clap: I have no problem with officials missing a call at the end of the game if it was something they did not call earlier in the game.

That said, I agree with SVG. Direct interpretation of the rules is needed at times, but not when it alters the ebb and flow of the game and specifically when literal interpretation alters the outcome of a game.

Consistent calls - good or bad, foul or no foul - is all any sport asks for.


This is an excellent post (or at least to me). I completely agree 100%. The players should be the attraction and not the officiating. You can only play/coach through so much and more recently (because I guess Stern and the boys want to address the NBA image problem, the scoring problem, and any others in one fell swoop) the NBA has become more debate and politics than actual basketball. If a "hand check" is a foul on Kobe and Wade then a "hand check" is a foul on Brad Miller, Varejao, or whomever. It's getting ridiculous how much attention everyone is paying to the officiating which (I believe) implies there is a problem. There is a way to do "the right thing" and everybody wins (players, coaches, fans and officials). I mean it goes both ways. A player can foul an opponent in a late tight game situation without any "suspicious activity." Take into consideration that if the game isn't being called consistently throughout then that may contribute to these late game scenarios in some cases. The refs watch the games and the Sportscenter highlights...they do let their perceptions get the best of them sometimes. Yeah Lebron can dunk on anyone but that doesn't mean if Yi makes a good play on him that the only way he did it is through an unfair advantage (fouling, holding, using his body, etc). Again the fact that this is even a conversation to me implies that there is a problem.