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View Full Version : Santiago better start gettin playing time!!!



MSU Spartans313
04-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Everett isnt going anywhere with this team besides for defense. We need Ramon back in the games he his clearly better.

theDETROITfan
04-29-2009, 07:28 PM
wrong

theDETROITfan
04-29-2009, 07:34 PM
Everett isnt going anywhere with this team besides for defense. We need Ramon back in the games he his clearly better.


to be honest, they are equal. jim leyland said we only got everett for his defense, any offense from him is an extra, and we aren't judging him by that. there is obviously something with santiago that jim leyland think that doesnt make him start all the time, something we don't know.....

Hockeytown
04-29-2009, 07:44 PM
to be honest, they are equal. jim leyland said we only got everett for his defense, any offense from him is an extra, and we aren't judging him by that. there is obviously something with santiago that jim leyland think that doesnt make him start all the time, something we don't know.....

Well he's playing better than Everett so at some point he has to start playing more. Everett isn't that much better defensively and has made some bad plays this year and Santiago is better offensively. You have to play your best players and that's not Everett....for now.

I don't know what Jim has against Ramon or if he is just in love with Everett.

theDETROITfan
04-29-2009, 07:47 PM
i don't know what he has against ramon, i bet if we played santiago as a starter and put everett in his spot, everett would want out, and we would lose his defensive capabilities, like i said there has to be a reason he doesnt play ramon all the time

FatSacks
04-29-2009, 07:58 PM
They both can't slg their body weight. Doesn't matter who starts.

DET is waiting on Garth Cale Iorg, who's cracking a .472 ops in 18 AA games this season. Looking over his stats, he K'd 111 times in 383 ab's last season at Single A Lakeland...and has yet to crack a .750 ops at any level, including college (.746)

He's 23 now.

theDETROITfan
04-29-2009, 08:13 PM
yeah i hear that Iorg is pretty good

I75
04-30-2009, 11:52 AM
From what I have seen looks like they both can be streaky. I take defense over offense any day. But why the hell does Everett have those fruity hi-lights in his hair for? That's about a cool as Swisher's facial hair last year.

Bondomania
04-30-2009, 11:40 PM
Last year we cannot judge Iorg.. it was his first year back into baseball..

As far as this year.. he had some mechanical flaws early and wasn't seeing the ball well. The hitting instructors have made the adjustments and i believe he is hitting much better over the last few games... again.. people are allowed to get off to slow starts, if he is still at the same levels around july then i might be concerned. Right now he is on a 5 game hitting streak, and hitting .233 over the last 10 games with 2 doubles and 1 triple. I think he will be alright. Yes he is 23, but most college SS's that you draft are 22-23 after their first year in the organization. If he is 25 and still at AA then something went horribly wrong. I think people mis-judged this kids ETA to the majors. I also think the aggressiveness with which the organization pushed him last year could have actually set him back. He should have probably started at West Michigan, not Lakeland. I think realistically without rushing him we are looking at 2011 before he is probably going to be fully ready. Another thing that Iorg has to work with is his short-term memory. He is a guy that allows struggles from the previous day affect him the next day. Once he starts rolling, he should continue.. but the early struggles didn't help this at all. He was pressing to an extreme early.. chasing some god awful pitches

I75
05-01-2009, 09:33 AM
Yeah I saw Iorg down in spring training twice and was so excited to see him in the line up along with others. He looked terrible. Like you said chasing pitches and looking silly. His glove was decent but I think he struck out quite a few times and never reached. If he hasn't shown big league stuff by 2011' we gotta look around the MLB for help and especially if they don't resign Polanco our middle infield will be soft.

MSU Spartans313
05-01-2009, 06:21 PM
i don't know what he has against ramon, i bet if we played santiago as a starter and put everett in his spot, everett would want out, and we would lose his defensive capabilities, like i said there has to be a reason he doesnt play ramon all the time

His defensive capabilities are too streaky he looks like a gold glover half the time and the other half he looks lost. When hes lost it isnt good the 3 errors this year show that. Santiago is a better overall player, Everett will be lucky to hit over 200 by the end of the year.

stanpapi
05-20-2009, 12:07 PM
Santiago's a great fielder, and he'd be even better if he played more often. I mean, for a guy that comes off the bench cold, his D is the best going, more or less. But he's hit well for a good while now, going back to last year, and I think he's earned a **chance** to at least platoon. That said, Everett has been better than expected so far, but he still has not done was Santiago has done.

MSU Spartans313
05-21-2009, 11:29 AM
I think santiago has proven by now he should be our starting ss now. Hitting around 340 on the year with the most rbi's in his life.

Lionsforlife
05-21-2009, 02:22 PM
I think santiago has proven by now he should be our starting ss now. Hitting around 340 on the year with the most rbi's in his life.


But how can you bench a guy who's currently hitting .307?

I would like to see a little more of a platoon between Santiago and Everett, granted, but right now, we are getting the best of both guys. We have 2 shortstops with great gloves hitting over .300, why would we mess with the formula.

Plus, if there was a change and Santiago got more regular time, it would probably cause his production to go down. I like what he have going right now. Why fix it if it's not broken?

Here's Santiago's stat line (through Wednesday): .345, 3 HR, 19 RBIs, .603 SLG
Here's Everett's stat line (through Wednesday): .307, 1 HR, 16 RBIs, .420 SLG

Santiago's is obviously slightly better, but I don't beleive with regular PT that he keeps it up. I'm loving the combined notion. Who wouldn't love to have a shortstop hitting .326 with 4 HRs, 35 RBIs and a .512 SLG. That's their combined production and I don't see any reason to mess with that.

MSU Spartans313
05-21-2009, 02:33 PM
But how can you bench a guy who's currently hitting .307?

I would like to see a little more of a platoon between Santiago and Everett, granted, but right now, we are getting the best of both guys. We have 2 shortstops with great gloves hitting over .300, why would we mess with the formula.

Plus, if there was a change and Santiago got more regular time, it would probably cause his production to go down. I like what he have going right now. Why fix it if it's not broken?

Here's Santiago's stat line (through Wednesday): .345, 3 HR, 19 RBIs, .603 SLG
Here's Everett's stat line (through Wednesday): .307, 1 HR, 16 RBIs, .420 SLG

Santiago's is obviously slightly better, but I don't beleive with regular PT that he keeps it up. I'm loving the combined notion. Who wouldn't love to have a shortstop hitting .326 with 4 HRs, 35 RBIs and a .512 SLG. That's their combined production and I don't see any reason to mess with that.

I dont know about you but i think that is more than slightly better, almost 200 points better in slg 40 points on average more hr's and rbi's. We should atleast test it out if he could handle the load.

Lionsforlife
05-21-2009, 03:31 PM
I dont know about you but i think that is more than slightly better, almost 200 points better in slg 40 points on average more hr's and rbi's. We should atleast test it out if he could handle the load.

I guess I just feel that Santiago has always been at his best off of the bench. I just think that it is a better chance that two guys with fewer at bats keep up this pace than one with all of them. My point is more that combined their .326 AVG with 4 hrs 35 rbis and .515 SLG is more than likely to sustain than if we just stuck with one of them.

I guess that when my shortstops are hitting like that combined, I'm not going to mess with it that much. If Everett begins to bring it down, then we can talk about tampering. But how much better can we get at that position than what we have right now? Does anyone truly believe that Santiago would be hitting .326 if he got all of the at bats. Let's just see what happens and see who becomes the weak link. Once again, it's not broken, don't fix it.

MSU Spartans313
05-21-2009, 03:44 PM
I guess I just feel that Santiago has always been at his best off of the bench. I just think that it is a better chance that two guys with fewer at bats keep up this pace than one with all of them. My point is more that combined their .326 AVG with 4 hrs 35 rbis and .515 SLG is more than likely to sustain than if we just stuck with one of them.

I guess that when my shortstops are hitting like that combined, I'm not going to mess with it that much. If Everett begins to bring it down, then we can talk about tampering. But how much better can we get at that position than what we have right now? Does anyone truly believe that Santiago would be hitting .326 if he got all of the at bats. Let's just see what happens and see who becomes the weak link. Once again, it's not broken, don't fix it.

In all honesty i believe that Santiago would be over 300 all year if he was our starting SS maybe not hitting for power, but he is for sure good enough to be able to be a 300 or higher batter.

Lionsforlife
05-21-2009, 04:04 PM
In all honesty i believe that Santiago would be over 300 all year if he was our starting SS maybe not hitting for power, but he is for sure good enough to be able to be a 300 or higher batter.

I understand wanting to see him get a chance. The last time he got regular time he was a horrible hitter, but that was a LONG time ago. My issue is timing. Why make a change right now. Only one AL shortstop is hitting better than Everett or Santiago right now and that's Jason Bartlett from the Rays.

I'm all for a straight platoon, but I don't want to ruin a good thing.

stanpapi
05-22-2009, 09:32 AM
I understand wanting to see him get a chance. The last time he got regular time he was a horrible hitter, but that was a LONG time ago. My issue is timing. Why make a change right now. Only one AL shortstop is hitting better than Everett or Santiago right now and that's Jason Bartlett from the Rays.

I'm all for a straight platoon, but I don't want to ruin a good thing.

...Santiago isn't even playing every OTHER day at this point. And I'll admit, that Everett has come on nicely, but there is no reasonable argument against Santiago playing every other day for now, and I generally don't see that happening. You can't just typecast a guy like Jim has typecast Santiago.

I mean, maybe Santiago is best used as a part-timer, but you have to find that out. You have to believe that a guy can take a look at his game and say, 'hey, I need work here and there.' You have to believe that a guy can actually get better. And believe Santiago has done that in terms of his bat. This is now an experienced player. So you have to play the guy and find out if he can do it, especially if they guy is putting up numbers like Santiago has over last year and this year. It is a crime that this guy isn't seeing more playing time. I've always loved his D, and now I'm thinking he just might have matured into a real good player. Maybe, maybe not, but let's find out please.

Lionsforlife
05-22-2009, 11:56 AM
...Santiago isn't even playing every OTHER day at this point. And I'll admit, that Everett has come on nicely, but there is no reasonable argument against Santiago playing every other day for now, and I generally don't see that happening. You can't just typecast a guy like Jim has typecast Santiago.

I mean, maybe Santiago is best used as a part-timer, but you have to find that out. You have to believe that a guy can take a look at his game and say, 'hey, I need work here and there.' You have to believe that a guy can actually get better. And believe Santiago has done that in terms of his bat. This is now an experienced player. So you have to play the guy and find out if he can do it, especially if they guy is putting up numbers like Santiago has over last year and this year. It is a crime that this guy isn't seeing more playing time. I've always loved his D, and now I'm thinking he just might have matured into a real good player. Maybe, maybe not, but let's find out please.

Like I said, I TOTALLY understand that. But if he's hitting .345 right now with the at bats he has, why not let him continue to do so. As long as Everett still produces, there is no reason to mess with the chemistry. Would I like to see more of a platoon: YES. Do I think Santiago is worthy of more PT: YES. Do I think it's smart to do that right now: NO. You just don't mess with a good thing. If Everett starts to struggle, take away some at bats. Until that happens, keep on keeping on.

I think Santiago deserves a shot to prove himself, I really do. Just not right now. We are getting our second best production from that position, behind only Miggy. So why change that?

detroitsports22
05-22-2009, 11:46 PM
well no one can know for sure that if santiago got full playing time, what his numbers would be like. he doesn't play every game, not even every other so we can't tell for sure what his numbers would be like. i think if the tigers wanted a smaller salary cap, trade polanco for a BP arm, and put santiago at 2b, we have done it a couple times this season, and when they both play, it is magic happening, also santiago would probably make a good 2nd hitter in the rotation, especially being a switch hitter.......just a thought

Lionsforlife
05-23-2009, 01:18 PM
I guess my entire point is why mess with what is working. It's possible that we could make Santiago an everyday player and he hits .340 the whole year. It's possible. But it's also possible that he slides a bit too. I guess I don't understand why we are talking about fixing a problem that doesn't exist. We are getting CRAZY production from BOTH shortstops. Why tinker. Even if it was to move Polanco, I don't trust both Everett and Santiago to keep this up.

Right now we are in the lead of the division and the shortstop position is the LEAST of our worries. So why would we tinker with the working parts and not address weakness (Bullpen). In fact, one could argue that with a 7 game win streak, we don't need to adress any issues right now. Let's not fix anything until it's broken.

stanpapi
05-23-2009, 05:12 PM
I guess my entire point is why mess with what is working. It's possible that we could make Santiago an everyday player and he hits .340 the whole year. It's possible. But it's also possible that he slides a bit too. I guess I don't understand why we are talking about fixing a problem that doesn't exist. We are getting CRAZY production from BOTH shortstops. Why tinker. Even if it was to move Polanco, I don't trust both Everett and Santiago to keep this up.

Right now we are in the lead of the division and the shortstop position is the LEAST of our worries. So why would we tinker with the working parts and not address weakness (Bullpen). In fact, one could argue that with a 7 game win streak, we don't need to adress any issues right now. Let's not fix anything until it's broken.

...you always dare to be great. And it's not working when you're constantly sitting guys who hit the lights out. This organization has a recent history of cooling hot guys down by sending him the minors. Clevelen comes up, hits the lights out of the ball during a penant race, DD and Jim send him down and Clevelen never duplicates. Timo Perez hit .340 to .400 for us until we stopped giving him chances to do it. Guy's now struggling in the minors thinking it doesn't matter if he hits .500 -- he doesn't have a chance of making the team no matter what. Alexis Gomez does nothing but magic in the play-offs for us, more or less gets released. Clete Thomas did an amazing job adding hustle, good D, and great small ball -- he gets the arse, goes down, plays hurt while Jim's sitting in the Ivory Tower saying Clete's needs to do better. But nowhere is this more evident than Santiago.

And I'm not even advocating playing the guy every day -- just you ride the guy while he's hot and see how far he can take it. You don't pencil guys in by their salary. You pick your line-up by what guys are bringing that day. And if on that day, you think Santiago has more than Polonco, you go with the guy you think is bringing the most that day. This organization does not do it that way. Here, you can hit .220 for a good year and a half, so long as you're making $14-mil. But if you're making less than $1-mil and hitting .350-something, you're going to find yourself sitting. That's the culture of this team.

mark1125
05-23-2009, 07:02 PM
I am just here thinking that this is one heck of a nice problem to have.

I am pleased that Everett is proving me wrong thus far.

Sam_Quentin
05-23-2009, 11:33 PM
...you always dare to be great. And it's not working when you're constantly sitting guys who hit the lights out. This organization has a recent history of cooling hot guys down by sending him the minors. Clevelen comes up, hits the lights out of the ball during a penant race, DD and Jim send him down and Clevelen never duplicates. Timo Perez hit .340 to .400 for us until we stopped giving him chances to do it. Guy's now struggling in the minors thinking it doesn't matter if he hits .500 -- he doesn't have a chance of making the team no matter what. Alexis Gomez does nothing but magic in the play-offs for us, more or less gets released. Clete Thomas did an amazing job adding hustle, good D, and great small ball -- he gets the arse, goes down, plays hurt while Jim's sitting in the Ivory Tower saying Clete's needs to do better. But nowhere is this more evident than Santiago.

And I'm not even advocating playing the guy every day -- just you ride the guy while he's hot and see how far he can take it. You don't pencil guys in by their salary. You pick your line-up by what guys are bringing that day. And if on that day, you think Santiago has more than Polonco, you go with the guy you think is bringing the most that day. This organization does not do it that way. Here, you can hit .220 for a good year and a half, so long as you're making $14-mil. But if you're making less than $1-mil and hitting .350-something, you're going to find yourself sitting. That's the culture of this team.

I have to agree with you. Yes Everett has been hitting well, but Santiago has been a beast. How do you truly know what you have unless you continuously play a guy. Its why to this day we still dont know what Marcus Thames really is. We've had him for how long now? Santiago could very well be our SS for the next 5 years or a viable replacement for Placido, but how are you going to find out unless you ride the guy out for an extended period of time. Better to try it now when you have someone adequate to take over if it doesnt work. Not this play every other day thing. I understand Leyland is trying to keep both fresh, but you have to also think of the future as well.

stanpapi
05-26-2009, 12:30 AM
That's right, and you have to try. I'm not saying Santiago is the answer -- I just want to know more. And the only way to know is to try to play 'em. It's like Jim looks at the back of the guy's baseball card and says, lifetime average, okay, there you have it.

mattd24
05-26-2009, 11:13 AM
Why is everyone so worried about picking a clear #1 at SS? Let's just enjoy any offense these two players give us - whoever starts that night - and watch them make solid plays all night long...

Platoons are part of baseball...I don't understand why people are annoyed because we have TWO decent shortstops...some teams don't have any!

detroitsports22
05-26-2009, 02:03 PM
i guess it makes sense not to worry about SS right now, or maybe for a while because of the production we are getting, i guess i was just worried that they will slide eventually, and they still might, but lets hope not

Lionsforlife
05-27-2009, 05:39 PM
If you are talking about getting Santiago more at bats over Polanco, I'm all for it. But, under the theory of going with a hot hand, both Everett and Santiago have that, so I don't see the reason to mess with it.

My issue is that we have Granderson, Maggs, and Polanco struggling to get going, but people are talking about fixing the shortstop position. I don't get that. Fix our problems. By tinkering with a good thing, it could create more. If Everett starts sliding, give Ramon more time, but don't do it just to do it. Once again, if you are talking about Santiago taking at bats from Polanco, sure why not, but under the theory of staying with a hot hand, he shouldn't take them from our other shortstop who is also hitting .307.

And by the way, Everett is turning out to be a HUGE bargain for us. He already is putting up triple the numbers of Renteria at this point (last year) and for a fraction of the cost.

MSU Spartans313
05-27-2009, 05:48 PM
If you are talking about getting Santiago more at bats over Polanco, I'm all for it. But, under the theory of going with a hot hand, both Everett and Santiago have that, so I don't see the reason to mess with it.

My issue is that we have Granderson, Maggs, and Polanco struggling to get going, but people are talking about fixing the shortstop position. I don't get that. Fix our problems. By tinkering with a good thing, it could create more. If Everett starts sliding, give Ramon more time, but don't do it just to do it. Once again, if you are talking about Santiago taking at bats from Polanco, sure why not, but under the theory of staying with a hot hand, he shouldn't take them from our other shortstop who is also hitting .307.

And by the way, Everett is turning out to be a HUGE bargain for us. He already is putting up triple the numbers of Renteria at this point (last year) and for a fraction of the cost.


I agree 100% with that. At the time I created this thread Everett was hovering just over 200 and was struggling big time. And Santiago was tearing it up, which he still is. Polanco is struggling badly, hopefully today's HR gets him on track for the year. If not then plug Santiago in at 2B and we will see from there.

detroitsports22
05-27-2009, 06:24 PM
struggles continue for Granderson, but Maggs is on a 13 game hit streak and Polanco has stepped it up the last few days.

Sam_Quentin
05-27-2009, 07:28 PM
10 of Magglio's games during his hit streak are one hit games...

and he still has no power.

36 mill over the next 2 years? Hell no...get out while you still can.

drewstantontime
05-27-2009, 09:03 PM
I agree. I like Maggs and Ill give him the benefit of the doubt and I still say he ends the season with at least 25 long balls. But he really needs to start hitting them soon or else we have to trade him. Right now we have younger and cheaper guys who can do what Maggs is doing right now for us. Ramirez, Clete, and Rayburn could all provide what Maggs is doing right now on a daily basis.

detroitsports22
05-27-2009, 10:14 PM
It's not what Maggs is doing now, it's what he may do later in the season. If he's not producing as much as some want him to now, so be it, we are still on top of the division by a 4 game margin, and yes, our younger guys will produce, but we all know that Maggs will start hitting, a great hitter does not just lose it in one offseason, he will be back, trust me.

MSU Spartans313
05-28-2009, 01:50 PM
It's not what Maggs is doing now, it's what he may do later in the season. If he's not producing as much as some want him to now, so be it, we are still on top of the division by a 4 game margin, and yes, our younger guys will produce, but we all know that Maggs will start hitting, a great hitter does not just lose it in one offseason, he will be back, trust me.

But the salary is too high too waste on him. We need to trade him to someone that will produce now and later.