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ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 07:59 PM
Never has a player in NBA history been treated so favorably by the officials. What Lebron has accomplished in terms of favorable treatment has even been deemed as "impossible." Say "Hello" to the Lebron era.


Still, we've never seen anything like this. Especially at a time when it is generally agreed with rules changes it is the most difficult time to defend on the perimeter without committing fouls.

James is averaging 1.72 fouls per game in an average of 37.9 minutes per game. James hasn't even been in foul trouble one game this season. He never has had more than four fouls called on him in a game, and since March 1 is being called for fewer than 1.3 fouls per game.

In 12 of the 20 games since then, James has been called for one or zero fouls in a game. James had a stretch of five straight games to conclude March averaging 36.8 minutes per game without being called for one foul. Not one in five games! In the last nine games, James has been called for three personal fouls. It's really amazing given the involvement James has in the action of the game.

"It's impossible," said one team executive.


James is now averaging 2.02 fouls per game in his career and has fouled out just three times in six seasons. Jordan averaged 2.6 fouls per game in his career and had fouled out eight times in his first six seasons.

Jordan averaged fewer than two fouls per game only in his last two seasons when he was not as active as a defender, and never as few as James' current 1.72. Among some of the great perimeter players in history, at a time when substantially more perimeter contact was allowed, Larry Bird averaged about 2.5 fouls, Magic Johnson 2.26 and Jerry West and Oscar Robertson well above two per game.

In the game now, Kobe Bryant has a career average of about 2.7 fouls per game and is about 2.3 this season. Dwyane Wade has a career average of 2.67 and is about 2.2 this season.

Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith2_090406.html)

It's pretty amazing. Many have stated how great Lebron's defense has been this season. It's interesting because usually when a player picks up fouls, it means they are being aggressive defensively. It is usually a good sign. Lebron doesn't pick up fouls...at all. It truly makes you wonder...

bossup2
04-15-2009, 08:03 PM
maybe he just plays good D!!!

****in laker fans

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 08:07 PM
maybe he just plays good D!!!

****in laker fans

Good defense=being aggressive=picking up a few fouls.

Plus, it's never been done before that a player who plays that many minutes did not get in foul trouble in a single game in their season.

But yah, lets all ignore it. It's easier that way. :eyebrow:

VCaintdead17
04-15-2009, 08:08 PM
My bad. I didnt really look to into the article. :( I just assumed it was another typical lebron bashing thread, so I went to work.


That is actually very interesting and I agree, it's ******** how that has happened.

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 08:16 PM
Wow I feel so bad for the lakers. The best team in the league, the best player in the league, one of the best records. How awful.


At least you know you will have your team in the next five years.


Seriously, shut up. Bogus article, bogus argument

This isn't about the Lakers. It's about the most massive showing of star treatment in an entire season of the NBA.

Bogus argument? Lebron is doing something that is unprecedented and is deemed as impossible.

LOL. Yet we aren't supposed to discuss this? As well as discuss how this is going to affect the future of the NBA? I mean, Lebron is doing something that is literally unthinkable...and not in a good way.

superkegger
04-15-2009, 08:19 PM
Pretty odd.

Chronz
04-15-2009, 08:21 PM
Hes that good defensively and that smart offensively

james21
04-15-2009, 08:22 PM
i was going to post the same thing but there are to many labron lover's to even agree or acknowledge this!

madiaz3
04-15-2009, 08:23 PM
maybe he just plays good D!!!

****in laker fans

because only laker fans should take a closer look at this and be concerned?

its 100x more likely that 0 to 1 fouls per game means worse d than flawless d when it comes to 1v1 man to man, steals and blocks are nice but that is just one aspect of defense.

madiaz3
04-15-2009, 08:24 PM
Hes that good defensively and that smart offensively

I wouldn't say he's smarter than Jordan in either, especially in a era where fouls are called for the slightest bit of contact.

GoatMilk
04-15-2009, 08:31 PM
he's still good at D
he does get away with probably more than he should, but that doesnt take away all of his defensive prowess.

Corey
04-15-2009, 08:32 PM
I read a different article about this the other day. It's astonishing how Lebron never gets called for fouls.

Chronz
04-15-2009, 08:33 PM
I wouldn't say he's smarter than Jordan in either, especially in a era where fouls are called for the slightest bit of contact.
Whats funny is that this isnt even Bron's best non-fouling season, his 2nd year in the league he played 5 more MPG and only fouled .1 more per game. MJ did the same thing when he was 34.

Do you think more or less fouls would be called on Bron back then? He could be more physical and probably a better defender because of it, but they would still call him for being more aggressive, at the same time MJ would have to change his defensive attitude in his one.

All I know is that players dont aggressively attack LeBron, his physique intimidates on both ends, but thats because there arent too many SF in the league that can attack Bron. When Bron does guard a SG he usually gets blown by and doesnt apply much pressure.

GregOden#1
04-15-2009, 08:46 PM
Greg Oden must be the best defender in the league.

TheShowzOver
04-15-2009, 08:52 PM
Shocker. I mean if anyone watched the Celtics/Cavs game on ABC last week. You don't have to be a Celtics fan to say WTF? Lebron flexing his musles all game. That's a taunting technical on every other player in the league. He complained his *** off when he did commit a foul or whatever, never got called for a tech. He travels just about every play. It's a joke. And if he ever wins a title, it's because he has the refs in his back pocket.

Lakersfan2483
04-15-2009, 09:00 PM
Never has a player in NBA history been treated so favorably by the officials. What Lebron has accomplished in terms of favorable treatment has even been deemed as "impossible." Say "Hello" to the Lebron era.





Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith2_090406.html)

It's pretty amazing. Many have stated how great Lebron's defense has been this season. It's interesting because usually when a player picks up fouls, it means they are being aggressive defensively. It is usually a good sign. Lebron doesn't pick up fouls...at all. It truly makes you wonder...

It does make one wonder how one player never seems to get into foul trouble especially playing aggressive defense. He definitely gets "favorable" treatment, but I didn't know it was to this extent. Good thread. It makes you question the integrity of the game.

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:15 PM
Hes that good defensively and that smart offensively

LOL. Yup. Lebron is the King. He has never committed a foul. :laugh:

I love all the excuses for this. He is just smart. He is just intimidating. It's so hilarious because I can name 20 different players who are better at both categories and never had this type of historic season. They didn't, not because they were dumb or soft, but because it is impossible to do this without...you know what.

Bucsfan
04-15-2009, 09:18 PM
MJ had it, Lebron has it, Kobe has it, Wade has it


we have to deal with it, that is interesting stats on the op, but it happens, the NBA loves the money makers

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:18 PM
It does make one wonder how one player never seems to get into foul trouble especially playing aggressive defense. He definitely gets "favorable" treatment, but I didn't know it was to this extent. Good thread. It makes you question the integrity of the game.

It really does. If only people would stop making excuses for this. There actually isn't any explanation for this. Lebron is ridiculously aggressive and physical at times. It's unbelievable that he has never been in foul trouble. Unbelievable.


Shocker. I mean if anyone watched the Celtics/Cavs game on ABC last week. You don't have to be a Celtics fan to say WTF? Lebron flexing his musles all game. That's a taunting technical on every other player in the league. He complained his *** off when he did commit a foul or whatever, never got called for a tech. He travels just about every play. It's a joke. And if he ever wins a title, it's because he has the refs in his back pocket.

:laugh2: I noticed that too. He complained like crazy on this one play. Flailing his arms and screaming at the ref like a *****, but didn't get a technical.

lakers4sho
04-15-2009, 09:19 PM
again, lmao @ the tags

lebron favored treatment, refs suck lebrons dick, what has nba come to

:laugh: :laugh:

made my day :up:

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:19 PM
It does make one wonder how one player never seems to get into foul trouble especially playing aggressive defense. He definitely gets "favorable" treatment, but I didn't know it was to this extent. Good thread. It makes you question the integrity of the game.


MJ had it, Lebron has it, Kobe has it, Wade has it


we have to deal with it, that is interesting stats on the op, but it happens, the NBA loves the money makers

Nobody has ever done it at this extent though...It is literally impossible. 12 of 20 games with 0 fouls yet is playing 30+ minutes and playing aggressive? I can't even fathom that.

JabberJaw
04-15-2009, 09:20 PM
You had to have expected, while making this thread, that you would get bashed relentlessly for saying anything negative about Bron, right? Does he get probably the most preferential treatment in the league? Yes! No doubt. He has been crowned King before winning a championship, making a first team all-D, or anything. I am a Laker fan, and get truly annoyed at the **** riders in the media, but it is what it is. Kobe has been heralded for a decade now. Lebron has now caught up. He can't be labeled anything until he starts winning championships, but it will come. Lebrons game is ridiculous. He has evolved every year in the league, and will continue to do so. I think the league is dying to get Bron a championship, but in no way can he win by himself. His D is very overrated, but he is still a very good defender. I love Lebron, and he is on track to become possibly the greatest ever. As annoying as the Lebron lovefest can be, the dude is amazing. Stars get calls. And Lebron being the one everyone wants to be the "next MJ", will get calls on a nightly basis. Get used to it. Kobe used to get em'. Wade got em' in the finals (giftwrapped championship), and Mike got em' his entire career. It happens.

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:21 PM
again, lmao @ the tags

lebron favored treatment, refs suck lebrons dick, what has nba come to

:laugh: :laugh:

made my day :up:

The referees are in deep throat nearly every Cavs game. :laugh:

Lakersfan2483
04-15-2009, 09:23 PM
LOL. Yup. Lebron is the King. He has never committed a foul. :laugh:

I love all the excuses for this. He is just smart. He is just intimidating. It's so hilarious because I can name 20 different players who are better at both categories and never had this type of historic season. They didn't, not because they were dumb or soft, but because it is impossible to do this without...you know what.

:clap:

Bucsfan
04-15-2009, 09:23 PM
again, lmao @ the tags

lebron favored treatment, refs suck lebrons dick, what has nba come to

:laugh: :laugh:

made my day :up:

I didnt even notice that until you said that, that IS hilarious, some of the tags ive seen on threads are weird, just like jimbob in teh jazz forum, on the tags it says "sexual jimbob" ??? its hilarious


Nobody has ever done it at this extent though...It is literally impossible. 12 of 20 games with 0 fouls yet is playing 30+ minutes and playing aggressive? I can't even fathom that.


yeah i know what you mean, but he is king james, and if anybody complains about it they are just "haters"..

stats dont lie

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:23 PM
You had to have expected, while making this thread, that you would get bashed relentlessly for saying anything negative about Bron, right? Does he get probably the most preferential treatment in the league? Yes! No doubt. He has been crowned King before winning a championship, making a first team all-D, or anything. I am a Laker fan, and get truly annoyed at the **** riders in the media, but it is what it is. Kobe has been heralded for a decade now. Lebron has now caught up. He can't be labeled anything until he starts winning championships, but it will come. Lebrons game is ridiculous. He has evolved every year in the league, and will continue to do so. I think the league is dying to get Bron a championship, but in no way can he win by himself. His D is very overrated, but he is still a very good defender. I love Lebron, and he is on track to become possibly the greatest ever. As annoying as the Lebron lovefest can be, the dude is amazing. Stars get calls. And Lebron being the one everyone wants to be the "next MJ", will get calls on a nightly basis. Get used to it. Kobe used to get em'. Wade got em' in the finals (giftwrapped championship), and Mike got em' his entire career. It happens.

True. People don't like the truth. In fact, they can't handle the truth. :D

Anyways, I do agree to some extent that Kobe used to get em...but for a very short period. After Colorado, Kobe probably got the least star treatment in NBA history. The refs treated him like a piece of meat sometimes, getting hacked relentlessly with no calls. It was pretty incredible.

Lakersfan2483
04-15-2009, 09:25 PM
Nobody has ever done it at this extent though...It is literally impossible. 12 of 20 games with 0 fouls yet is playing 30+ minutes and playing aggressive? I can't even fathom that.

When I read that, my jaw dropped. I have been watching basketball for yrs. and have never heard of anything like this. Jordan didn't get that type of love from the refs...

lakers4sho
04-15-2009, 09:27 PM
I didnt even notice that until you said that, that IS hilarious, some of the tags ive seen on threads are weird, just like jimbob in teh jazz forum, on the tags it says "sexual jimbob" ??? its hilarious

HEY!! Jimbob IS sexy :whistle:

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:28 PM
yeah i know what you mean, but he is king james, and if anybody complains about it they are just "haters"..

stats dont lie

True. He is the King. We shouldn't question him. Just like we couldn't question MJ.

In other news, Kobe tied his shoelaces with a bunny ears technique instead of the new, hip one-loop wrap method. Kobe ****ing sucks! Lets all question his greatness on some irrelevant and baseless idea conjured up by some sportswriter. :p

TheShowzOver
04-15-2009, 09:30 PM
It really does. If only people would stop making excuses for this. There actually isn't any explanation for this. Lebron is ridiculously aggressive and physical at times. It's unbelievable that he has never been in foul trouble. Unbelievable.



:laugh2: I noticed that too. He complained like crazy on this one play. Flailing his arms and screaming at the ref like a *****, but didn't get a technical.

The best part about it was that idiot Mike Breen saying "Lebron has to be careful here". No he doesn't he's the ****ing king, where have you been Mike? It's Lebron's world, we just live in it. Can you imagine Lebron getting thrown out of a critical game? Or even getting a tech? It would never happen. But to every other player in the league it would. This is way beyond, MJ, Kobe, or Wade, or anyone else treatment. The NBA might as well rename itself to the LDSleague. You figure out the words.

JordansBulls
04-15-2009, 09:31 PM
MJ had it, Lebron has it, Kobe has it, Wade has it


we have to deal with it, that is interesting stats on the op, but it happens, the NBA loves the money makers

Well here is a few details on some top 5 guys all time.
I know MJ fouled out in 10 Games in the Regular season and 3 games in the playoffs . Magic fouled out 5 games in the regular season and 1 game in the playoffs. Wilt never fouled out in any game for his career.

Lakersfan2483
04-15-2009, 09:33 PM
How can someone avoid not getting a "single" foul called against him for 5 ball games? Once again, the "integrity" of the game is in question and it starts with David Stern.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2009, 09:40 PM
Well here is a few details on some top 5 guys all time.
I know MJ fouled out in 10 Games in the Regular season and 3 games in the playoffs . Magic fouled out 5 games in the regular season and 1 game in the playoffs. Wilt never fouled out in any game for his career.

Beat me to posting that. :D Anyway, I'm not going to cry foul until I see some legitimate evidence that LeBron is out there hacking people and getting away with it. It seems like a blind statistic right now. He was at 2.2 PF per game last year (Wade and Kobe are at 2.3 PF this year) and now he's at 1.7PF a game. He plays 3 less minutes and most games are blowouts. I don't know. His steals and blocks are all highlights that seem pretty clean. I think he's just having a great defensive year until you can actually show me him getting away with calls on defense.

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:41 PM
The best part about it was that idiot Mike Breen saying "Lebron has to be careful here". No he doesn't he's the ****ing king, where have you been Mike? It's Lebron's world, we just live in it. Can you imagine Lebron getting thrown out of a critical game? Or even getting a tech? It would never happen. But to every other player in the league it would. This is way beyond, MJ, Kobe, or Wade, or anyone else treatment. The NBA might as well rename itself to the LDSleague. You figure out the words.

Lebron David Stern League?

EDIT: Wait. I'm a dumbass. The Lebron Dick Sucking League. Hahahahaha.

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:42 PM
Well here is a few details on some top 5 guys all time.
I know MJ fouled out in 10 Games in the Regular season and 3 games in the playoffs . Magic fouled out 5 games in the regular season and 1 game in the playoffs. Wilt never fouled out in any game for his career.

Good find JB. It's pretty amazing that Wilt never fouled out, but, from what I understand, the NBA was allowed more physical play in the past and there were less rules on how to play the game entirely (the League and basketball was still forming; a lot of the rules were made to prevent dominance from one player--Wilt). Obviously the most physical era was the 80's and since then it has lessened. It is beyond surprising that Lebron is allowed to do a lot of the things he does. I watch almost as many Cavs games as I do Lakers and I have been saying this for a while, Lebron hand-checks like crazy and reaches in like no other. He uses a lot of illegal techniques defensively, which is OK if he would get called for it...Instead the dude has never even been in foul trouble.

But wait, everybody is telling me that Lebron is smart, the King, and is funny so he should get a pass on playing illegal basketball. :eyebrow:

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 09:45 PM
Beat me to posting that. :D Anyway, I'm not going to cry foul until I see some legitimate evidence that LeBron is out there hacking people and getting away with it. It seems like a blind statistic right now. He was at 2.2 PF per game last year (Wade and Kobe are at 2.3 PF this year) and now he's at 1.7PF a game. He plays 3 less minutes and most games are blowouts. I don't know. His steals and blocks are all highlights that seem pretty clean. I think he's just having a great defensive year until you can actually show me him getting away with calls on defense.

Lebron actually plays 2 more minutes than Kobe so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Have you watched nearly every Cavs game this year? Lebron gets away with at least 5 calls a game. One popular one was the Jason Richardson block where Lebron clearly hacks his wrists, but there is no call and ESPN runs their daily Lebron come from behind block.

Anyways, just the fact that an aggressive defender who plays so many minutes is doing something (rarely ever fouling) that is deemed impossible should raise some eye brows.

philab
04-15-2009, 10:04 PM
Never has a player in NBA history been treated so favorably by the officials. What Lebron has accomplished in terms of favorable treatment has even been deemed as "impossible." Say "Hello" to the Lebron era.

Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith2_090406.html)

It's pretty amazing. Many have stated how great Lebron's defense has been this season. It's interesting because usually when a player picks up fouls, it means they are being aggressive defensively. It is usually a good sign. Lebron doesn't pick up fouls...at all. It truly makes you wonder...

You never cease to amaze, man.


Now that it's obvious LeBron will win the MVP (and deservedly) and that he's having an epic season, you have to search -- no, grasp -- for a reason to hate on him. I respect your knowledge of basketball and respect you as a poster, but when it comes to LeBron, you are a joke.


So whatever, onto the topic. It's a legitimate question despite my comments above. I'm not going to argue that LeBron does or does not get preferential treatment because that never goes anywhere. I will, however, give the other side of the argument you so artfully crafted.


LeBron is averaging roughly 1.85 PF/g when you account for the decrease in minutes this season.
LeBron's career average is 2.00 PF/g.
That's a difference of .15 PF/g between this season and his career marks (the minutes/game are the same for each). I haven't run the tests, but that hardly seems statistically significant (i.e., a basis for your claim).

Furthermore, LeBron has sat in the 4th quarter more this season than ever before -- missing the entire thing 12 or so times. I don't know the stats off-hand, but it seems many more fouls come in the 4th.
On top of that, Mike Brown has been real careful with LeBron and foul trouble. Any time he picks up a second, he comes out. Any time he picks up a foul near the end of a quarter, he comes out. This has not happened before.
The Cavaliers have also had substantial, almost unprecedented margins of victory this season. Blowouts = less intense play = less fouls.
The Cavaliers are also playing at a significantly slower pace this season as compared to last (88.8 to 90.2).
And the league as a whole is actually committing less PF this season as compared to last as well.

For comparison, Jordan's Bulls spent many seasons at a pace in the mid-90s -- only in his last season did they dip below 90. Most of his career was played at a much higher pace than this year's Cavaliers.
Faster pace = more possessions = more fouls; in fact, the average number of PF committed by teams this season is almost [u]300 (14 - 18%!) less than that of many Jordan-era seasons.
The Jordan comparison is without merit.

Now you may argue that LeBron has ALWAYS gotten preferential treatment and cite his abnormally low PF/g rate. This is a valid argument.
The problem, however, is that there's no support except for concurring statistics.
Using those same statistics, the argument could be made that LeBron is just exceptional at limiting his personal fouls. After all, there has been little variance between seasons in his PF/g rate.
Occam's razor would certainly lend credence to the latter argument, but you're free to make the former. Too bad there's little, if any, support for it.



I'm not being a homer here. Once again your utter ridiculousness has forced me to defend LeBron primarily for the sake of reason. I wouldn't have the desire to defend most non-Cavaliers players, save a few -- this is true -- but this does not make me a homer. Having watched nearly every Cavaliers' game, I have a wealth of knowledge, firsthand and otherwise, about the Cavaliers and feel that I am in a position to comment.

In fact, I'm not even arguing (here) that LeBron doesn't get preferential treatment -- I am merely showing the ridiculousness of your post. Call it playing devil's advocate if you'd like.

Yanks All Day
04-15-2009, 10:18 PM
Waa waa waa LeBron is the MVP this year and not Kobe or D-Wade. Waa waa LeBron has become the best player in the league. Instead of hating on the man, watch him play. Players like this do not come along often at all, and its likely you won't see someone else like this for many many years. Stop hating on the man because he is the best. Get over it. This is a Laker fan/ LeBron bashing thread basically. Last I checked both teams are the favorites to make the NBA Finals, so sit back, watch the playoffs, and stop complaining Laker fans.

Hawkeye15
04-15-2009, 10:21 PM
usually doesn't apply to LeBron James. No matter how you slice it, if you are a Wade or Kobe fan, the fact is, LeBron is the best talent to ever enter professional basketball. He will smash all kinds of records, and you can whine and look to justify it anyway you like. It doesn't change the fact that if he stays healthy, wings a couple rings, and stays on the path he is on, he will be the best to ever play. Get over it. Seriously. Its like trying to find a error in Picasso's paintings. You may find one that bothers you, but the fact is, he is the best.

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 10:30 PM
You never cease to amaze, man.

Thanks.



Now that it's obvious LeBron will win the MVP (and deservedly) and that he's having an epic season, you have to search -- no, grasp -- for a reason to hate on him. I respect your knowledge of basketball and respect you as a poster, but when it comes to LeBron, you are a joke.

I never said he wasn't the MVP. In fact, I said in the MVP Thread that he was the MVP. He had an awesome season. No doubt. He really did some great feasting on the bottom feeders and average squads (shooting 53% and 47% against them...46% against the good teams).

I didn't search for anything. A friend of mine showed me the article. I didn't even need him to show me the article as I have been watching the Cavs all season and already knew this.

When it comes to Lebron, I'm a joke? Just because I criticize the King? He deserves criticism and with all the enormous hype he gets, he needs to be shot down a bit too. The fact that he has a 3-6 record against the elite and gets star treatment should be talked about. It's a forum and these are pretty serious black marks on his resume. It shows he needs help and it shows he doesn't step up against the best (unless at home--yet he still loses at home to Kobe and the Lakers).



So whatever, onto the topic. It's a legitimate question despite my comments above. I'm not going to argue that LeBron does or does not get preferential treatment because that never goes anywhere. I will, however, give the other side of the argument you so artfully crafted.

I showed you the article, which presented facts. A team executive also called his fouling season impossible.



LeBron is averaging roughly 1.85 PF/g when you account for the decrease in minutes this season.
LeBron's career average is 2.00 PF/g.
That's a difference of .15 PF/g between this season and his career marks (the minutes/game are the same for each). I haven't run the tests, but that hardly seems statistically significant (i.e., a basis for your claim).

My claim and the articles claim is that he has always had star treatment. This season it is moreso...

since he has never been in foul trouble. Remember last year dude? He fouled out of a game. This has not happened this year. He has not been in foul trouble.


Furthermore, LeBron has sat in the 4th quarter more this season than ever before -- missing the entire thing 12 or so times. I don't know the stats off-hand, but it seems many more fouls come in the 4th.
On top of that, Mike Brown has been real careful with LeBron and foul trouble. Any time he picks up a second, he comes out. Any time he picks up a foul near the end of a quarter, he comes out. This has not happened before.

Every coach is careful with their stars and foul trouble. Nothing new here.


The Cavaliers have also had substantial, almost unprecedented margins of victory this season. Blowouts = less intense play = less fouls.
The Cavaliers are also playing at a significantly slower pace this season as compared to last (88.8 to 90.2).
And the league as a whole is actually committing less PF this season as compared to last as well.

It doesn't change the fact that he has not been in foul trouble for a single game. Every other player has been in foul trouble. One possession doesn't mean anything. It is the simple fact that there have been questions about his illegal defensive style of play and that it has been proven to have been ignored.


For comparison, Jordan's Bulls spent many seasons at a pace in the mid-90s -- only in his last season did they dip below 90. Most of his career was played at a much higher pace than this year's Cavaliers.
Faster pace = more possessions = more fouls; in fact, the average number of PF committed by teams this season is almost [u]300 (14 - 18%!) less than that of many Jordan-era seasons.
The Jordan comparison is without merit.

Jordan got star treatment as well. No doubt about that.


Now you may argue that LeBron has ALWAYS gotten preferential treatment and cite his abnormally low PF/g rate. This is a valid argument.
The problem, however, is that there's no support except for concurring statistics.

There is support. Just the simple fact that he has never been in foul trouble for even a single game is enough evidence.

I mean, do you really believe he fouled 0 times in 12 out of 20 games?


Using those same statistics, the argument could be made that LeBron is just exceptional at limiting his personal fouls. After all, there has been little variance between seasons in his PF/g rate.
Occam's razor would certainly lend credence to the latter argument, but you're free to make the former. Too bad there's little, if any, support for it.

The facts support it. Watching the games and watching Lebron play illegally is evidence to support it. The fact that a team executive deemed it as impossible is evidence. The fact that Phil Jackson and Lakers scouts agreed to the fact that Lebron gets away with "murder" defensively supports my argument. Shall I go on?


I'm not being a homer here. Once again your utter ridiculousness has forced me to defend LeBron primarily for the sake of reason. I wouldn't have the desire to defend most non-Cavaliers players, save a few -- this is true -- but this does not make me a homer. Having watched nearly every Cavaliers' game, I have a wealth of knowledge, firsthand and otherwise, about the Cavaliers and feel that I am in a position to comment.

That's good. Everybody has an opinion and they should express it. I will also express mine...which team executives agree with, the greatest coach of all time agrees with, etc. I'm the crazy one though, right? :eyebrow:



In fact, I'm not even arguing (here) that LeBron doesn't get preferential treatment -- I am merely showing the ridiculousness of your post. Call it playing devil's advocate if you'd like.

Yup. Ridiculousness of MY post...which was an article...which is based on fact...which is supported by the opinion of a team executive...which is also supported by arguably the greatest coach to ever coach the game of basketball.

Yup. My post is ridiculous. :smoking:

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 10:31 PM
Waa waa waa LeBron is the MVP this year and not Kobe or D-Wade. Waa waa LeBron has become the best player in the league. Instead of hating on the man, watch him play. Players like this do not come along often at all, and its likely you won't see someone else like this for many many years. Stop hating on the man because he is the best. Get over it. This is a Laker fan/ LeBron bashing thread basically. Last I checked both teams are the favorites to make the NBA Finals, so sit back, watch the playoffs, and stop complaining Laker fans.

Presenting facts=hating now.

Do not criticize or point out facts about the King or else you are a hater.

He is not 3-6 against the elite. He is actually 9-0.

All Hail Big Brother! :cool:

NFLNBA
04-15-2009, 10:43 PM
Lebron is the God child of the NBA and will get away with murder! Love Lebron but i have to admit he gets away with whatever he wants really. He can play physical D and get away with it and when you play physical on him you will send him to the line. Both Lebron and Wade get way to much treatment but atleast wade will get called for a reach and a block every now and then. The League really wants that kid to get a title and its no secret

ARMIN12NBA
04-15-2009, 10:44 PM
usually doesn't apply to LeBron James.

True. He is too good. In fact, he has never even fouled a single time in his career.


No matter how you slice it, if you are a Wade or Kobe fan, the fact is, LeBron is the best talent to ever enter professional basketball.

True. Basketball didn't even exist before 2003? I mean, who the **** is Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Bill Russel, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwan, Tim Duncan, Jerry West, etc. They didn't even exist.

If you said athlete, I would agree. Lebron is no where near the best talent to ever play. Not even the best talent today.

BTW--Nice job going off-topic. Apparently somebody being great justifies them getting unfair treatment.



He will smash all kinds of records,

He will? I didn't get the memo.



and you can whine and look to justify it anyway you like.

Or people with actual basketball knowledge can point to reasons and variables as to why things happened the way they happened.


It doesn't change the fact that if he stays healthy, wings a couple rings, and stays on the path he is on, he will be the best to ever play.

The path he is on? He hasn't won anything though. If he has already won one then I would agree, but he hasn't. Michael Jordan still has 6 rings, 5 MVP's, 10 scoring titles, a DPOY, etc. Do you actually think Lebron can do that in the next 6 years (his prime)? Lebron has already accomplished his best season so I don't see that happening.

BTW--I can see if, and, or buts about any player. If Kobe wins the next 5 championships then he's the greatest ever. Who cares?


Get over it.

Get over what. Your whole post is completely irrelevent to the topic. According to you, people are not allowed to point out facts if they show the King is not perfect.


Seriously.

Seriously. :eyebrow:


Its like trying to find a error in Picasso's paintings.

Lebron is Picasso now? Picasso never got preferential treatment or went 3-6 against the elite, did he?

BTW--Horrible analogy. Paintings are the epitome of subjective opinions. Basketball is a mix of both subjective opinions and facts. Facts show that Lebron shrinks in the big moments. Facts seem to show that LBJ has gotten the greatest season of preferential treatment ever.

Also, stop making Lebron seem to be a God. He hasn't won anything yet. He hasn't done anything in the playoffs yet (except shoot 41% in each of the last two years and shoot 35% against the Spurs and Celtics). People like you are why people don't like Lebron. He is what he is. A very good player.


You may find one that bothers you, but the fact is, he is the best.

Ummm...No. He may be the best (may), but it doesn't mean he does not have serious flaws. Anyways, nice job of completely dodging the topic. Your post is completely useless and doesn't pertain to any topic...Except a thread about why players shouldn't be criticized because they are good...But then you would be a hypocrite because you hate Kobe like no other.

Frrrrank!!!
04-15-2009, 11:12 PM
Not really too shocked by this, but on a side note the tags are the best.:laugh2:

philab
04-15-2009, 11:32 PM
Thanks.

When it comes to Lebron, I'm a joke? Just because I criticize the King? He deserves criticism and with all the enormous hype he gets, he needs to be shot down a bit too. The fact that he has a 3-6 record against the elite and gets star treatment should be talked about. It's a forum and these are pretty serious black marks on his resume. It shows he needs help and it shows he doesn't step up against the best (unless at home--yet he still loses at home to Kobe and the Lakers).

You can criticize LeBron all you want. My points were: 1) this criticism is without much merit and 2) you are grasping for criticism to the point of ridiculousness. Say you just posted an article, fine. Coming from you, given your history of skewing everything LeBron to the negative and everything Kobe to the positive, the post was ridiculous. Grasping.

And the real issue here is not that you are criticizing LeBron -- in fact, you are NOT criticizing LeBron. Instead, you are criticizing the NBA referees, saying they give LeBron preferential treatment. WHY? To discredit LeBron's season. You know it; I know it.

While it may be true that LeBron gets preferential treatment, it is a little odd to me that you pick out LeBron and not Wade, Kobe, or any other player that might get preferential treatment. (Oh, that's right, Kobe never gets preferential treatment. :rolleyes:) Actually, it's not odd -- you're the most ridiculous Kobe homer/LeBron hater on these boards. You demand respect with your "knowledge" of the game and ability to form coherent arguments (unlike so many), but in reality you're worse than any of them. Give it up, man. I at least try to be unbiased. You can't say that at all.

-- "Knowledge" refers to your reluctance to operate in the world of objectivity (statistics), instead focusing on your personal opinions and coaching experience. It's all well and good, but it doesn't hold much water in a debate. Ever heard of all those studies on eyewitness reports? They're somewhat relevant here.

Sorry for the ad hominem attacks, but I'm just amazed at your history of unapologetically biased posts. I've gotten a little fired up at this point and I apologize. I'm leaving it there, though, because it expresses the exasperation your posts elicit.




I showed you the article, which presented facts. A team executive also called his fouling season impossible.

The article did present facts, yes. And I responded to those facts. They showed nothing. The article compared LeBron to Jordan (with facts!) -- an illogical comparison given the eras. It used facts that overstate the drop in PF/g, as I pointed out. And it used facts to "show" that LeBron has received preferential treatment throughout his career -- a claim, as I pointed out, that is based on nothing but concurring statistics (I know how "concurring" sounds, but I mean it in a different, almost legal sense). Those statistics also support the claim that LeBron is just very adept at limiting his personal fouls. And again, Occam's razor supports the latter claim.

The PF/g rates for Kobe and Wade have dropped significantly as well, almost as much as LeBron. Why doesn't your post touch much on that?



My claim and the articles claim is that he has always had star treatment.

Okay, and you support this claim with what?



Jordan got star treatment as well. No doubt about that.

And this goes to show what? Jordan is irrelevant here.



There is support. Just the simple fact that he has never been in foul trouble for even a single game is enough evidence.

I mean, do you really believe he fouled 0 times in 12 out of 20 games?

Again, I'm not necessarily arguing that LeBron gets something other than superstar treatment. Yes, 12 out of 20 games with no fouls is crazy. I'd like to see what 20 game stretch it was (because he's gone stretches where he rarely plays in the 4th).

Twelve out of twenty may also just be a statistical outlier. There's no perspective for it. It appears crazy, but who knows?

And regardless, one stretch is a small sample size. Over the course of the season his PF/g rate has been relatively consistent with his career, especially given the blowouts this season and the slower pace.

Even if that one stretch was crazy (and he was indeed receiving preferential treatment), over the course of the season it doesn't really appear that he's been getting the superstar treatment (or any more than usual; and refer back to "concurring" for more on that).



The facts support it. Watching the games and watching Lebron play illegally is evidence to support it. The fact that a team executive deemed it as impossible is evidence. The fact that Phil Jackson and Lakers scouts agreed to the fact that Lebron gets away with "murder" defensively supports my argument. Shall I go on?

The facts don't really support it much at all. Your eyewitness account doesn't do much for me either. Ask me to make the same argument for any player in the league and I'll come up with enough material over the course of a season to pull it off. It's called searching for evidence to fit a hypothesis and it's bad science.

A team executive, Phil Jackson, and Lakers scouts hold some weight (although PJ seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder recently, but I digress). I'm not quite sure why I'm supposed to believe them above anyone else (including myself!), but okay.

And, as I've said many times before, I love that you refer to the opinions of team executives, coaches, scouts, and analysts as gospel when they criticize LeBron, but when they praise LeBron -- calling him DPOY (whether he is or not), calling this season the greatest in modern basketball history (again . . .), and such -- you act like everyone's opinion is crazy. It's the epitome of hypocrisy, really.




That's good. Everybody has an opinion and they should express it. I will also express mine...which team executives agree with, the greatest coach of all time agrees with, etc. I'm the crazy one though, right? :eyebrow:

Cool, express it.

I just thought, as an apparently rational and intelligent person, you would strive for objectivity. Instead, you continue to flagrantly display a level of bias that I've rarely seen from someone capable of forming coherent arguments.



Again, I'm not some huge LeBron homer (some bias likely exists, but I really, truly try not to be a homer). In fact, I've openly admitted that if LeBron were drafted by another team, I'd probably have been turned off some of his arrogance and what-have-you. I'm not in love with the guy -- I'm just forced to defend him because so many on PSD have such a ridiculous hate for him.


Finally, again, I apologize for getting a bit fired up. This is my last post of the night, so feel free to take your time in responding (or not respond at all if you prefer).

BTownTeamsRKing
04-15-2009, 11:33 PM
ok lakers fans, im gonna defend u here.

for anyone that says Lebron doesn't get more preferential treatment than Kobe or Wade, you are blind.

I did it a little more research (i looked at numbers) and found some more interesting facts.

Lebron commited 0-1 foul in more than 40 games this year.
Kobe commited 0-1 foul in only 20 games
Wade also only did it in 20 games
Pierce 10 games.

KOBE is a WAY better defender. Kobe is arguably the best defensive guard in the league and has been for some time. He just plays against tough match ups. and to think that the Lebron is TWICE as good as Kobe on defense is ********. Kobe has been in discussion for defensive player of the year.

and the starter of this is right, Great defenders are agressive and will commit fouls as a by product of their play. Fact is, Lebron gets every close call.

these stats don't lie. the nba loves lebron and they dont care if we know it.

BTownTeamsRKing
04-15-2009, 11:36 PM
How can someone avoid not getting a "single" foul called against him for 5 ball games? Once again, the "integrity" of the game is in question and it starts with David Stern.

it is impossible. that is without getting away with reach ins. never getting called for blocking on a close play.

the chances of all these calls going his way are so slim if the game is called correctly.

still1ballin
04-15-2009, 11:39 PM
Nice find Armin, unfortunately most of us know about this already and people try to find excuses to back up LeBron....the facts are right there..its up to the person to realize them or not.

BTownTeamsRKing
04-15-2009, 11:40 PM
Nice find Armin, unfortunately most of us know about this already and people try to find excuses to back up LeBron....the facts are right there..its up to the person to realize them or not.

look at the fact i posted above and tell me how absolutely rediculous is that

jetsfan28
04-15-2009, 11:44 PM
I have no problem with this. Watch the games, no team is better at hiding a player than the Cavs are at hiding LeBron. 1 foul in the 1st quarter with under a minute less, he's usually out of the game. 2 fouls early in the 2nd quarter or early 3rd quarter, they start switching more on pick and rolls and he avoids playing help defense. That is by design, it is no accident. Plus, with his size and athleticism, he's able to play good defense and make some plays without making any contact, allowing him not to get called for fouls.

still1ballin
04-15-2009, 11:53 PM
look at the fact i posted above and tell me how absolutely rediculous is that

lol....its ridiculous.......sickning IMO

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 12:02 AM
You can criticize LeBron all you want. My points were: 1) this criticism is without much merit and 2) you are grasping for criticism to the point of ridiculousness. Say you just posted an article, fine. Coming from you, given your history of skewing everything LeBron to the negative and everything Kobe to the positive, the post was ridiculous. Grasping.

The article was not written at my request so stop acting like it was.


And the real issue here is not that you are criticizing LeBron -- in fact, you are NOT criticizing LeBron. Instead, you are criticizing the NBA referees, saying they give LeBron preferential treatment. WHY? To discredit LeBron's season. You know it; I know it.

I'm not discrediting anything. Only showing variables as to why things happened the way they happened. Nothing wrong with that. Imagine if your history class didn't do that. You would be a much less intelligent person. You would have a lot less knowledge. Instead, your history class presents you with every variable and every reason as to why things happened the way they happened. Why we went to WWI and why we went to WWII and on and on. It isn't taking away from anything. Simply a deeper explanation to why things happened.


While it may be true that LeBron gets preferential treatment, it is a little odd to me that you pick out LeBron and not Wade, Kobe, or any other player that might get preferential treatment. (Oh, that's right, Kobe never gets preferential treatment. :rolleyes:) Actually, it's not odd -- you're the most ridiculous Kobe homer/LeBron hater on these boards. You demand respect with your "knowledge" of the game and ability to form coherent arguments (unlike so many), but in reality you're worse than any of them. Give it up, man. I at least try to be unbiased. You can't say that at all.

The article was written about Lebron. Not Wade or Kobe or Howard. It was written about lebron and it was an interesting article. The fact remains that Kobe and Wade and Howard have not gotten this type of preferential treatment. They have not gotten this type of epic, out of this world preferential treatment that is deemed impossible.

BTW--Remember the Lakers-Charlotte game? Kobe was given three consecutive fouls against Raja Bell which were very questionable and he was fouled out in OT (Lakers would lose in 2OT). Lebron hasn't even seen Foul 5 next to his name all season



-- "Knowledge" refers to your reluctance to operate in the world of objectivity (statistics), instead focusing on your personal opinions and coaching experience. It's all well and good, but it doesn't hold much water in a debate. Ever heard of all those studies on eyewitness reports? They're somewhat relevant here.


The funny thing is, is that I am actually using statistics and expert opinion to support my theory.

The King is above stats and expert opinion though. ;)


Sorry for the ad hominem attacks, but I'm just amazed at your history of unapologetically biased posts.

:laugh2: No problem. It's still hilarious that you think I'm completely serious in my posts about Lebron and fail to see much of what I try to accomplish.


I've gotten a little fired up at this point and I apologize. I'm leaving it there, though, because it expresses the exasperation your posts elicit.

Perfect. I got you fired up. That's a good thing. Your mind is being stimulated and I'm getting a rise out of people with my opinion. That's journalism for you.


The article did present facts, yes. And I responded to those facts. They showed nothing.

Hmmm. OK.


The article compared LeBron to Jordan (with facts!) -- an illogical comparison given the eras. It used facts that overstate the drop in PF/g, as I pointed out.

He may have made a mistake there, but there is no mistaking Lebron has not seen a 5th foul this season.


And it used facts to "show" that LeBron has received preferential treatment throughout his career -- a claim, as I pointed out, that is based on nothing but concurring statistics (I know how "concurring" sounds, but I mean it in a different, almost legal sense). Those statistics also support the claim that LeBron is just very adept at limiting his personal fouls. And again, Occam's razor supports the latter claim.

Not really. Occam's razor is the simplest explanation. Is it not? The explanation that Lebron is just that great at not fouling yet, at the same time, playing very aggressive defense and is doing something that is deemed impossible is not Occam's razor.

Occam's razor is the explanation that he is getting the best preferential treatment ever seen, which is due to being the most exposed athlete and marketed athlete in this generation.

Which is simpler? You decide.


The drop in PF/g for Kobe and Wade have dropped significantly as well, almost as much as LeBron. Why doesn't your post touch much on that?

Okay, and you support this claim with what?

And this goes to show what? Jordan is irrelevant here.

You mentioned Jordan getting preferential treatment. I agreed.


Again, I'm not necessarily arguing that LeBron gets something other than superstar treatment. Yes, 12 out of 20 games with no fouls is crazy. I'd like to see what 20 game stretch it was (because he's gone stretches where he rarely plays in the 4th).

Twelve out of twenty may also just be a statistical outlier. There's no reference for it. It appears crazy, but who knows?

In that 12 of 20 with 1 or less, Lebron played over 30 minutes in each game and over 40 in a few.


And regardless, one stretch is a small sample size. Over the course of the season his PF/g rate has been relatively consistent with his career, especially given the blowouts this season and the slower pace.

It still doesn't change the FACT that he has not been over 4 fouls this season and has only seen 4 fouls 7 times this season. This means that he had 3 fouls or less in over 91% of his NBA games.


Even if that one stretch was crazy (and he was indeed receiving preferential treatment), over the course of the season it doesn't really appear that he's been getting the superstar treatment (or any more than usual; and refer back to "concurring" for more on that).

The facts don't really support it much at all. Your eyewitness account doesn't do much for me either. Ask me to make the same argument for any player in the league and I'll come up with enough material over the course of a season to pull it off. It's called searching for evidence to fit a hypothesis and it's bad science.

A team executive, Phil Jackson, and Lakers scouts hold some weight (although PJ seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder recently, but I digress). I'm not quite sure why I'm supposed to believe them above anyone else (including myself!), but okay.

I believe PJ and what he has seen in extensive game tape...as well as the team executive. No offense, but I'll stick by them over you.


And, as I've said many times before, I love that you refer to the opinions of team executives, coaches, scouts, and analysts as gospel when they criticize LeBron, but when they praise LeBron -- calling him DPOY (whether he is or not), calling this season the greatest in modern basketball history (again . . .), and such -- you act like everyone's opinion is crazy. It's the epitome of hypocrisy, really.

I agree. HAHA. Although, I have not seen a coach call Lebron the DPOY...Just media members. If they do, then that would be interesting. From the coaches (and players) I have talked to, he is still playing average defense so...


Cool, express it.

Back at ya.


I just thought, as an apparently rational and intelligent person, you would strive for objectivity. Instead, you continue to flagrantly display a level of bias that I've rarely seen from someone capable of forming coherent arguments.

It's a gift really. It probably comes from debate. You have to debate both sides of the coin even if one side is one stupid *** side.


Again, I'm not some huge LeBron homer (some bias likely exists, but I really, truly try not to be a homer). In fact, I've openly admitted that if LeBron were drafted by another team, I'd probably have been turned off some of his arrogance and what-have-you. I'm not in love with the guy -- I'm just forced to defend him because so many on PSD have such a ridiculous hate for him.

So many? The amount of people who hate Lebron are a huge minority.


Finally, again, I apologize for getting a bit fired up. This is my last post of the night, so feel free to take your time in responding (or not respond at all if you prefer).

Apology accepted. Goodnight. :D

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 12:04 AM
ok lakers fans, im gonna defend u here.

for anyone that says Lebron doesn't get more preferential treatment than Kobe or Wade, you are blind.

I did it a little more research (i looked at numbers) and found some more interesting facts.

Lebron commited 0-1 foul in more than 40 games this year.
Kobe commited 0-1 foul in only 20 games
Wade also only did it in 20 games
Pierce 10 games.

KOBE is a WAY better defender. Kobe is arguably the best defensive guard in the league and has been for some time. He just plays against tough match ups. and to think that the Lebron is TWICE as good as Kobe on defense is ********. Kobe has been in discussion for defensive player of the year.

and the starter of this is right, Great defenders are agressive and will commit fouls as a by product of their play. Fact is, Lebron gets every close call.

these stats don't lie. the nba loves lebron and they dont care if we know it.

Nice find.

GregOden#1
04-16-2009, 12:05 AM
I have no problem with this. Watch the games, no team is better at hiding a player than the Cavs are at hiding LeBron. 1 foul in the 1st quarter with under a minute less, he's usually out of the game. 2 fouls early in the 2nd quarter or early 3rd quarter, they start switching more on pick and rolls and he avoids playing help defense. That is by design, it is no accident. Plus, with his size and athleticism, he's able to play good defense and make some plays without making any contact, allowing him not to get called for fouls.

Leave this thread, your sound logic and well crafted arguments have no place here.

TheChosenOne88
04-16-2009, 12:13 AM
Love him or hate him, this King is a lock for MVP and he's put his team in position to get his first crown.

MAC10TIZZY
04-16-2009, 12:15 AM
umm hello!!!!!!!!!! brandon roy is even worse

montazingmvp
04-16-2009, 12:20 AM
kobe gets quite a lot of star treatment too...he argues more than any player in the nba yet somehow doesn't ever get called for T's (this year).

he also rarely gets called for fouls. maybe not as extreme as lebron...

i think lebron has already had a better season than kobe ever did...why don't we focus on that

MAC10TIZZY
04-16-2009, 12:22 AM
the article was not written at my request so stop acting like it was.



I'm not discrediting anything. Only showing variables as to why things happened the way they happened. Nothing wrong with that. Imagine if your history class didn't do that. You would be a much less intelligent person. You would have a lot less knowledge. Instead, your history class presents you with every variable and every reason as to why things happened the way they happened. Why we went to wwi and why we went to wwii and on and on. It isn't taking away from anything. Simply a deeper explanation to why things happened.



The article was written about lebron. Not wade or kobe or howard. It was written about lebron and it was an interesting article. The fact remains that kobe and wade and howard have not gotten this type of preferential treatment. They have not gotten this type of epic, out of this world preferential treatment that is deemed impossible.

Btw--remember the lakers-charlotte game? Kobe was given three consecutive fouls against raja bell which were very questionable and he was fouled out in ot (lakers would lose in 2ot). Lebron hasn't even seen foul 5 next to his name all season




the funny thing is, is that i am actually using statistics and expert opinion to support my theory.

The king is above stats and expert opinion though. ;)



:laugh2: No problem. It's still hilarious that you think i'm completely serious in my posts about lebron and fail to see much of what i try to accomplish.



Perfect. I got you fired up. That's a good thing. Your mind is being stimulated and i'm getting a rise out of people with my opinion. That's journalism for you.



Hmmm. Ok.



He may have made a mistake there, but there is no mistaking lebron has not seen a 5th foul this season.



Not really. Occam's razor is the simplest explanation. Is it not? The explanation that lebron is just that great at not fouling yet, at the same time, playing very aggressive defense and is doing something that is deemed impossible is not occam's razor.

Occam's razor is the explanation that he is getting the best preferential treatment ever seen, which is due to being the most exposed athlete and marketed athlete in this generation.

Which is simpler? You decide.



You mentioned jordan getting preferential treatment. I agreed.



In that 12 of 20 with 1 or less, lebron played over 30 minutes in each game and over 40 in a few.



It still doesn't change the fact that he has not been over 4 fouls this season and has only seen 4 fouls 7 times this season. This means that he had 3 fouls or less in over 91% of his nba games.



I believe pj and what he has seen in extensive game tape...as well as the team executive. No offense, but i'll stick by them over you.



I agree. Haha. Although, i have not seen a coach call lebron the dpoy...just media members. If they do, then that would be interesting. From the coaches (and players) i have talked to, he is still playing average defense so...



Back at ya.



It's a gift really. It probably comes from debate. You have to debate both sides of the coin even if one side is one stupid *** side.



So many? The amount of people who hate lebron are a huge minority.



Apology accepted. Goodnight. :d



you guys seriously need to get a room!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol

still1ballin
04-16-2009, 12:24 AM
kobe gets quite a lot of star treatment too...he argues more than any player in the nba yet somehow doesn't ever get called for T's (this year).

he also rarely gets called for fouls. maybe not as extreme as lebron...
i think lebron has already had a better season than kobe ever did...why don't we focus on that

Yes he does.....just last nights game he had to sit out the whole 2nd quarter because of foul trouble......he also fouled out in overtime earlier in the year against the cats' which was a crucial game. Funny thing is, his 6th foul was a ticky tack foul and would of never been called on LeBron.

Lakersfan2483
04-16-2009, 12:25 AM
I have no problem with this. Watch the games, no team is better at hiding a player than the Cavs are at hiding LeBron. 1 foul in the 1st quarter with under a minute less, he's usually out of the game. 2 fouls early in the 2nd quarter or early 3rd quarter, they start switching more on pick and rolls and he avoids playing help defense. That is by design, it is no accident.
Plus, with his size and athleticism, he's able to play good defense and make some plays without making any contact, allowing him not to get called for fouls.

Open your eyes man, come on, he's that good where he rarely commits a foul? Come on, how does he not commit a foul in 5 straight games? So, the Cavs do an excellent job of hiding him, huh? I thought every team takes out their star player if he is in foul trouble, but seeing how James is "NEVER" in foul trouble, they would have no need to take him out. I don't buy that switching nonsense, you can't tell me that he never reaches in, or he doesn't grab and hold. He fouls just like everyone else, the only difference is he is not called for them as much.

*Read the article and tell me that he's not getting "preferential" treatment that few if any have ever gotten. The facts were clearly laid out for anyone trying to argue against it.

TheChosenOne88
04-16-2009, 12:25 AM
kobe gets quite a lot of star treatment too...he argues more than any player in the nba yet somehow doesn't ever get called for T's (this year).

he also rarely gets called for fouls. maybe not as extreme as lebron...

i think lebron has already had a better season than kobe ever did...why don't we focus on that

Because there are more LeBron haters and Laker fans on this forum than the entire population of China.

BTownTeamsRKing
04-16-2009, 12:27 AM
I have no problem with this. Watch the games, no team is better at hiding a player than the Cavs are at hiding LeBron. 1 foul in the 1st quarter with under a minute less, he's usually out of the game. 2 fouls early in the 2nd quarter or early 3rd quarter, they start switching more on pick and rolls and he avoids playing help defense. That is by design, it is no accident. Plus, with his size and athleticism, he's able to play good defense and make some plays without making any contact, allowing him not to get called for fouls.

0-1 fouls in 40 games. that is absolutely rediculous. he makes plays without contact? are you kidding me man? he thrives off his physicality. Last year in the East playoffs, he practically undressed Pierce on some of those steals.

It is truly annoying how much favoritism he gets. The NBA is trying to force feed us the next Jordan whether he is that good or not. And it is just a total turn off from watching. It just rips away at the entertainment value of the game when one guy has so much preferential treatment.

ESPN doesnt help with its 4 hours in the morning dedicated lebron call first take (besides skip).

Also to add, this favortism only relates to calls against him, how about the calls he gets to go to the free throw line at the end of games?

Message to the NBA: LOSE YOUR DAMN SUPERSTAR TREATMENT PLEASE. WE LIKE FAIR COMPETITION. WE LIKE TO PRETEND THE GAMES HAVE INTEGRITY.

montazingmvp
04-16-2009, 12:28 AM
Yes he does.....just last nights game he had to sit out the whole 2nd quarter because of foul trouble......he also fouled out in overtime earlier in the year against the cats' which was a crucial game. Funny thing is, his 6th foul was a ticky tack foul and would of never been called on LeBron.

wait a second....kobe has been in foul trouble in two whole games this season...no...way...

that doesn't prove anything...

still1ballin
04-16-2009, 12:30 AM
wait a second....kobe has been in foul trouble in two whole games this season...no...way...

that doesn't prove anything...

No dude, I was just stating examples that he indeed gets called for fouls both hard fouls and ticky tack fouls

BTownTeamsRKing
04-16-2009, 12:32 AM
Yes he does.....just last nights game he had to sit out the whole 2nd quarter because of foul trouble......he also fouled out in overtime earlier in the year against the cats' which was a crucial game. Funny thing is, his 6th foul was a ticky tack foul and would of never been called on LeBron.

Kobe lost his preferrential treatment after the rape alligations. he lost his privilidge bc the NBA did not want him to be the face of the NBA. imagine:

hey corporate sponsors, look at our new poster boy! He balls and gets white girls to play with....jus playen.

Kobe no longer gets the benefit from the games ive seen. not to a crazy extent like this.

Kenny
04-16-2009, 12:35 AM
LMAO This board is so pathetic as Armin leads the charge.

Lakersfan2483
04-16-2009, 12:37 AM
There is no way around the facts, people can argue until they are blue in the face, but the fact is Lebron James garners the type of "over protection" that no other player is able to get. I guess he's just so good that he "rarely" commits a foul and never is in foul trouble.

Teeboy1487
04-16-2009, 12:49 AM
I agree. Lebron does get the star treatment, but so did Jordan and Kobe. It is not Lebron's fault, but it is the nba fault for being so bias. I really hate when they do that. The nba should really be fair because this takes away from the game for me. Also, I hate when kobe himself gets some favorable calls because everyone else would say the refs bailed him out. The nba should not let the refs decide the game and let the teams decide the game. The games should be decided fair and square and let the better teams win with no agendas.

philab
04-16-2009, 01:00 AM
Message to the NBA: LOSE YOUR DAMN SUPERSTAR TREATMENT PLEASE. WE LIKE FAIR COMPETITION. WE LIKE TO PRETEND THE GAMES HAVE INTEGRITY.

This (^^) coming from a Celtics fan is hilarious.

So are you prepared to give back your championship from last season?

Last year and into this year, NO ONE got preferential treatment on par with the Celtics and, in particular, Kevin Garnett.

Illegal picks, Achilles chops, cheap shots, technical-worthy taunts . . . and that's just the Finals!



Come on ARMIN, we can agree on this one, right? (And I'll get to your post -- a very good one, I might add)

NFLNBA
04-16-2009, 01:02 AM
Kobe lost his preferrential treatment after the rape alligations. he lost his privilidge bc the NBA did not want him to be the face of the NBA. imagine:

hey corporate sponsors, look at our new poster boy! He balls and gets white girls to play with....jus playen.

Kobe no longer gets the benefit from the games ive seen. not to a crazy extent like this.

Exactly! Before the rape charge Kobe was the poster boy and got a lot of love, at the same time when Kobe was the poster boy you could actually still play some defense without getting called for everything. The way the game is called now its a lot easier to score and be a great offensive player. Put Jordan at 24 in this game today he would have been even more unstoppbale, put Kobe at Lebrons age at the way the game is called now and he would prob be chasing #1 on the all time scoring list after 13 years.

Its not Lebrons fault by any means but to say its not true is BS and bias! The NBA wants to have Lebron at the top he's there market boy and he is an amazing talant but he is given 10+ points a game at the line and is able to always play aggresive defense all game because he's never in foul trouble

SMS07
04-16-2009, 01:15 AM
It's pretty amazing. Many have stated how great Lebron's defense has been this season. It's interesting because usually when a player picks up fouls, it means they are being aggressive defensively. It is usually a good sign. Lebron doesn't pick up fouls...at all. It truly makes you wonder...

No my friend. It's pretty amazing how obvious your bias is lol. I'm no cavs fan, but u laker fans need to just accept the fact that lebron has dethroned kobe and is the mvp. Lol u laker fans have been whining all season about lebron because he has been just destroying the league with his amazing play. Get over it. What's even more pathetic is that kobe has been the refs' little princess for the last 4+ years and now that another player has come along and proven he's superior to little miss princess kobe, the refs are gonna treat lebron like they did kobe the last few years. Just accept the fact the LEBRON IS BETTER lol silly little laker failures

SMS07
04-16-2009, 01:18 AM
Nice find Armin, unfortunately most of us know about this already and people try to find excuses to back up LeBron....the facts are right there..its up to the person to realize them or not.

I keep seeing your biased posts defending kobe. Dude lebron gets special treatment... JUST LIKE KOBE... and wade as well. U silly little biased failure keeps denying it but just accept the fact that one, lebron has surpassed kobe, and two, they BOTH get the golden treatment. Stupid biased laker bandwagoner i'm tired of your obvious bias and idiot statements. I admire your pride to your team, but stop being so ridiculous and man up once in a while

lakers4sho
04-16-2009, 01:24 AM
Can we all agree that MJ is the GOAT but doesn't get preferential treatment??




By MJ I meant Mike. Mike James :up:

Teeboy1487
04-16-2009, 01:30 AM
No my friend. It's pretty amazing how obvious your bias is lol. I'm no cavs fan, but u laker fans need to just accept the fact that lebron has dethroned kobe and is the mvp. Lol u laker fans have been whining all season about lebron because he has been just destroying the league with his amazing play. Get over it. What's even more pathetic is that kobe has been the refs' little princess for the last 4+ years and now that another player has come along and proven he's superior to little miss princess kobe, the refs are gonna treat lebron like they did kobe the last few years. Just accept the fact the LEBRON IS BETTER lol silly little laker failures
:laugh: Are you finish? All I read was :bla:.

King Rubio
04-16-2009, 02:03 AM
I agree with the statement that Lebron is highly favored and never called for fouls...however I think the last person that should be complaining about it is someone with Kobe Bryant on their team...

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 02:16 AM
LMAO This board is so pathetic as Armin leads the charge.

I know. Those pathetic facts. That pathetic writer. That pathetic team executive. That pathetic Phil Jackson. They are all pathetic, huh.

Chronz
04-16-2009, 04:46 AM
LOL. Yup. Lebron is the King. He has never committed a foul. :laugh:

I love all the excuses for this. He is just smart. He is just intimidating. It's so hilarious because I can name 20 different players who are better at both categories and never had this type of historic season. They didn't, not because they were dumb or soft, but because it is impossible to do this without...you know what.
Were any of those 20 players SF? Bigmen play differently against eachother, its harder for bigmen to stay out of foul trouble because of all their defensive responsibilities, which is why Wilt never fouling out and playing 48 minutes a night on the regular is whats truly impossible to replicate.

I dont know why your making a big fuss about this, should we diminish Tayshaun's Defense, he had a way lower foul rate than Bron does. Spree, Dumars, Kidd in his jersey and PHX days. Some guys are so overwhelmingly big for their position that they dont have to apply much pressure just use their height as an advantage and staying down. Jason Kidd in his prime PHX/NJ days. Larry Bird had a similar foul rate but he was always on poor offensive players.

JayW_1023
04-16-2009, 06:42 AM
The officials always seem to be the subject of most excuses on 'why my team lost'. Utterly, pathetic and ridiculous.

Duncan = Donkey
04-16-2009, 06:48 AM
love the tags

'refs suck lebrons dick'

rabueed
04-16-2009, 06:58 AM
I like Lebron, great offense and defense. He is top 3

but anybody that denies that he gets more star treatment than any other player in the league is kidding themselves and being completely ignorant.

tjlipford
04-16-2009, 09:13 AM
Man all yall sound pathetic whining over Lebron like this. I mean of course he does foul and sometimes he doesnt get called but if u watch every game like I do then u would know that
1. U cant come soft or he will pin it up against the glass or make sure a fan receives the ball somewhere in the stands.
2. U really cant out muscle him and he knows it and he does body people to death.

This has to be one of the most petty forums I ever seen.
P.S. What about the non call on kobe in the finals at LA when he reached from behind on Pierce and then dunked it. LOL. Really yall are reaching for the stars

tjlipford
04-16-2009, 09:19 AM
Stop posting forums about Lebron like this cuz its sad that someone would go to this extent and post som ******* like this.

Really 1.37 fouls a game or something??? LOL.
What is Kobes 2.43 or Pierce 3.4 LOL.

Bottom line we beat up on teams and we do it in style and Lebron makes it look easy cuz it is to him now. Start watching more games then u will understand

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 01:59 PM
The officials always seem to be the subject of most excuses on 'why my team lost'. Utterly, pathetic and ridiculous.

My team didn't lose though...They actually won so I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. Posters always seem to make general rationalizations that bear no merit instead of actually responding to a thread that is supported by evidence and expert opinion. That is what is pathetic, IMO.

TheChosenOne88
04-16-2009, 02:23 PM
My team didn't lose though...They actually won so I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. Posters always seem to make general rationalizations that bear no merit instead of actually responding to a thread that is supported by evidence and expert opinion. That is what is pathetic, IMO.

What's pathetic is you Laker fans will never give LeBron James credit for anything. You criticize and ridicule him every chance you get. If you want to play detective why don't you become one. The guy is a freak of nature with minimal flaws. Even if he gets his first championship you won't praise him, you will just bash him even more. Kobe isn't winning MVP this season so get over it. The Lakers and Cavs are not better than one another, as far as I'm concerned Boston is the best team in the NBA because they still have the crown. Until another team besides the Celtics is holding up the trophy, Boston is still top dog. Maybe be we will see Lakers/Cavs in the finals. Only time will tell, I'm confident in my team's abilities and you Laker fans are confident in your team's abilities so lets just leave it at that.

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 02:40 PM
What's pathetic is you Laker fans will never give LeBron James credit for anything.

Sure, Lakers fans do. They give him credit where credit is due. No doubt about it. He's a beast.


You criticize and ridicule him every chance you get.

If Lebron does something that is worthy of criticism, then I will criticize him. He is the most decorated player to ever not do anything in this league (in terms of championships). I judge him based on the fact that he was dubbed better than Jordan before he was even in high school.


If you want to play detective why don't you become one.

OK.


The guy is a freak of nature with minimal flaws.

He still has flaws though, which you have admitted to just right now. You are basically asking me to not talk about his flaws. Ignore them...

Isn't that censorship? :cool:


Even if he gets his first championship you won't praise him

Sure I will. If he wins and plays well then I will praise him.


, you will just bash him even more.

Not really. That's an outrageous accusation.


Kobe isn't winning MVP this season so get over it.

Hah. Like I care about the MVP. I am over it. I have declared Lebron the MVP in the MVP Thread. See for yourself.

This isn't about MVP. This is about discussing some facts. I'm getting tired of the posts that go like, ZOMG Lebron is too good so we can't talk about him negatively or the ones that go like, Lebron is the MVP bro. OK. Good for you. That is not the topic or thread at hand.


The Lakers and Cavs are not better than one another, as far as I'm concerned Boston is the best team in the NBA because they still have the crown.

Did you consider the Lakers the best team in the Western Conference in 2005?


Until another team besides the Celtics is holding up the trophy, Boston is still top dog.

That makes no sense. Other teams can become better. Especially when there is no Garnett.



Maybe be we will see Lakers/Cavs in the finals.

Maybe.


Only time will tell,

True.



I'm confident in my team's abilities and you Laker fans are confident in your team's abilities so lets just leave it at that.

Cool man. Now what did any of this have to do with the thread? :laugh2:

sciferguy
04-16-2009, 02:45 PM
Everyone knows what the guy gets away with and it's happened with a few other players but probably not as bad as all the non-traveling calls he gets. All I want to know is, is Stern the factor behind all of this?

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 02:50 PM
Everyone knows what the guy gets away with and it's happened with a few other players but probably not as bad as all the non-traveling calls he gets. All I want to know is, is Stern the factor behind all of this?

Interesting question muh man. I really don't know. I would hate that if that were to be the case. Obviously NBA marketing is very much geared towards Lebron, but would Stern go that far. It's hard to believe, but, at the same time, it's not considering the history of conspiracies of the NBA (Ewing, MJ, etc.).

DanAngelo77
04-16-2009, 03:14 PM
you are all salty that lebron is amazing!!!

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 03:17 PM
you are all salty that lebron is amazing!!!

:laugh: Another post that directly pertains to the topic. Ignore evidence and experts. Who gives a ****? Lebron is amazing. Gotta love it.

DanAngelo77
04-16-2009, 03:20 PM
and you dont think that kobe gets away with anything???

rabueed
04-16-2009, 03:26 PM
What's pathetic is you Laker fans will never give LeBron James credit for anything. You criticize and ridicule him every chance you get. If you want to play detective why don't you become one. The guy is a freak of nature with minimal flaws. Even if he gets his first championship you won't praise him, you will just bash him even more. Kobe isn't winning MVP this season so get over it. The Lakers and Cavs are not better than one another, as far as I'm concerned Boston is the best team in the NBA because they still have the crown. Until another team besides the Celtics is holding up the trophy, Boston is still top dog. Maybe be we will see Lakers/Cavs in the finals. Only time will tell, I'm confident in my team's abilities and you Laker fans are confident in your team's abilities so lets just leave it at that.


I like Lebron, great offense and defense. He is top 3

I clearly stated he is a top 3 player in this league. The guy is insane....I get it.


quit being an biased fan, read previous posts to make sure your statements are right.

jetsfan28
04-16-2009, 03:28 PM
0-1 fouls in 40 games. that is absolutely rediculous. he makes plays without contact? are you kidding me man? he thrives off his physicality. Last year in the East playoffs, he practically undressed Pierce on some of those steals.

It is truly annoying how much favoritism he gets. The NBA is trying to force feed us the next Jordan whether he is that good or not. And it is just a total turn off from watching. It just rips away at the entertainment value of the game when one guy has so much preferential treatment.

ESPN doesnt help with its 4 hours in the morning dedicated lebron call first take (besides skip).

Also to add, this favortism only relates to calls against him, how about the calls he gets to go to the free throw line at the end of games?

Message to the NBA: LOSE YOUR DAMN SUPERSTAR TREATMENT PLEASE. WE LIKE FAIR COMPETITION. WE LIKE TO PRETEND THE GAMES HAVE INTEGRITY.

How about watching the games instead of just trying to make judgments off of stats? The guy does not get favorable officiating on the defensive end at all, he simply doesn't commit fouls. There's a reason that, despite the fact that LeBron never gets called for fouls, the Cavs foul as much as other teams. It's because they're still fouling, they just do a good job of moving him around in the defense or taking him out at the right time so HE doesn't get the fouls. If officials simply weren't calling them for fouls, it would be impossible for them to have fouled as many times as they have this season.

Again, the reason he doesn't get called for fouls is because he doesn't foul. He usually comes out of games in the last minute of quarters when he's one away from being in "foul trouble" (with 1 foul in the 1st, 2 in the 2nd, 3 in the 3rd), they switch on pick and rolls so he's not on quick ballhandlers when he has fouls, they're quick to come to him on help defense so he doesn't need to foul, he doesn't play any help defense when he has fouls, and he never fouls on fast breaks or easy layups.

It's not bad reffing, it's great coaching and great execution. Mike Brown easily deserves to be the coach of the year IMHO, simply because he's managed to keep this a great defensive team despite often hiding his best defender to keep him out of foul trouble.

rabueed
04-16-2009, 03:29 PM
and you dont think that kobe gets away with anything???

of course he does, and he always will. But Lebron gets it more...

What i'm saying is Lebron's situation is different than any other player we have had to deal with in the NBA. I don't recall at the moment any other player his size that is as agile as he is, pound for pound. The refs don't know how to adjust their foul calling to realize what should be considered a foul in Lebron's standards. IMO, I think this is the problem.

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 03:41 PM
and you dont think that kobe gets away with anything???

He does. Not as much as Lebron though.

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 03:57 PM
How about watching the games instead of just trying to make judgments off of stats?

I watch nearly every Cavs game buddy. Can you say the same thing?


The guy does not get favorable officiating on the defensive end at all

At all? Are you kidding? I don't even need to refute that point because it is completely false. He is allowed to get away with hand-checking more than any other player and YOU KNOW THAT (if you watch the Cavs).


, he simply doesn't commit fouls.

And I'm Bill Gates.

BTW--I have some land in Texas to sell you at a very good price.


There's a reason that, despite the fact that LeBron never gets called for fouls, the Cavs foul as much as other teams.

Yup. Lebron gets away with it. Not so much the entire team. That is why it is titles, LEBRON's lack of foul calls against him. Not the Cavs.


It's because they're still fouling, they just do a good job of moving him around in the defense or taking him out at the right time so HE doesn't get the fouls.

Lebron does play within a scheme, but that scheme doesn't involve him "moving around" in the defense. That is pure idiocy. Obviously he moves around...because the offense has movement as well (did I actually need to explain that..wow). Lebron often funnels players into his bigs. At the same time, Lebron's lack of defensive fundamentals sometimes causes him to fall behind on the drive. He then resorts to using hand-checking. Not to mention a few of his highlight blocks this year have been clear hits on the hand.

BTW--Every single coach in the NBA takes out their star player or any player for that matter once they get into foul trouble.

At the same time, there is no way you can explain the fact that he was called for 0-1 fouls on 40 occasions. Do you really believe he only fouled less than one times for 50% of the NBA year? Do you REALLY believe that? If so, I would like some of what you are having. :laugh2:



If officials simply weren't calling them for fouls, it would be impossible for them to have fouled as many times as they have this season.

Again, the reason he doesn't get called for fouls is because he doesn't foul.

LMAO. Gotta love denial. Take some refereeing classes (they are usually 5-6 hours long before the test--bring your own lunch). Then watch any random 10 Cavs games this year and I guarantee you will find that Lebron has fouled at least 4 times in each game without a call. Guarantee.


He usually comes out of games in the last minute of quarters when he's one away from being in "foul trouble" (with 1 foul in the 1st, 2 in the 2nd, 3 in the 3rd),

Same with any other player. When they get into foul trouble, they are taken out of the game.


they switch on pick and rolls so he's not on quick ballhandlers when he has fouls, they're quick to come to him on help defense so he doesn't need to foul, he doesn't play any help defense when he has fouls, and he never fouls on fast breaks or easy layups.

Almost all of that was false. The reason being is that would be incredibly stupid coaching. 1) Lebron has not been in foul trouble a single time. 2) It's impossible to play aggressive and great defense as a whole while trying to mask your star player to not get fouls. 3) Mike Brown has had his defensive system set up for years you dumbass and it is not geared to be timid and play soft. They are aggressive and play good defense; that would be impossible if every player on the team were worried about whether or not Lebron has a foul.

Your entire analysis makes no sense because it's just plain stupid.


It's not bad reffing, it's great coaching and great execution. Mike Brown easily deserves to be the coach of the year IMHO, simply because he's managed to keep this a great defensive team despite often hiding his best defender to keep him out of foul trouble.

It's not despite. That's your problem. You live in this dream world where you can have your cake and eat it too. That's not the case.

It's seriously hard to fathom that you think that Mike Brown changed his defensive scheme entirely to make sure Lebron doesn't get anymore fouls...when, in reality, his defensive scheme is simply set up to stop opponents. If the other 4 players were only worried about Lebron fouling then it would be impossible to concentrate on defense. Seriously, I can't even imagine playing like that. Even when a player is in foul trouble, they have to just play smart basketball individually.

philab
04-16-2009, 04:22 PM
Eh, I've lost interest in this one, ARMIN. I'll save you the hassle of replying to yet another long post :D.


I got a bit fired up last night. Maybe it was the straw the broke the camel's back -- or, perhaps more appropriately, throwing a straw on a dead camel's back.

Either way, you had a good post. The stats about his zero- and one-foul games were relatively indicative of some sort of preferential treatment. The Jordan comparison and season PF/game averages really weren't.

I find it a bit strange that the writer (and not you -- for the most part :D) singled out LeBron when both Kobe and Wade had virtually identical drops, but maybe that's the price of an MVP award.

Finally, while LeBron almost certainly gets some superstar treatment, I feel that both the writer and you have overstated the degree. When pace, minutes/game, LeBron's career PF/game average, and the Cavaliers' substantial average margin of victory are all taken into account, I think we're left with a clearer picture.


So that's about the gist of my argument. It's the playoffs now and time to move on. And we're looking at some potentially fantastic series. Hopefully the referees get their **** together because I for one would like to see great, 5-on-5 basketball -- whether that hurts or helps the Cavaliers. I'm not holding my breath though.

kingofkings313
04-16-2009, 04:54 PM
Well let's see...Lebron plays good D enough said! Pretty sure he will make the All Defense Team! All the games I've seen him in, he wasn't hacking or constantly fouling his opponent!

ottograham14
04-16-2009, 05:12 PM
How about watching the games instead of just trying to make judgments off of stats? The guy does not get favorable officiating on the defensive end at all, he simply doesn't commit fouls. There's a reason that, despite the fact that LeBron never gets called for fouls, the Cavs foul as much as other teams. It's because they're still fouling, they just do a good job of moving him around in the defense or taking him out at the right time so HE doesn't get the fouls. If officials simply weren't calling them for fouls, it would be impossible for them to have fouled as many times as they have this season.

Again, the reason he doesn't get called for fouls is because he doesn't foul. He usually comes out of games in the last minute of quarters when he's one away from being in "foul trouble" (with 1 foul in the 1st, 2 in the 2nd, 3 in the 3rd), they switch on pick and rolls so he's not on quick ballhandlers when he has fouls, they're quick to come to him on help defense so he doesn't need to foul, he doesn't play any help defense when he has fouls, and he never fouls on fast breaks or easy layups.

It's not bad reffing, it's great coaching and great execution. Mike Brown easily deserves to be the coach of the year IMHO, simply because he's managed to keep this a great defensive team despite often hiding his best defender to keep him out of foul trouble.


Thats the best argument I have read on this post. If any of you actually watch most of Cleveland's games you can tell that Bron is not physically hacking or hanging on anyone. He does a nice job of funneling players to his bigs and on offense yes he does get away with traveling at times, but come on people who doesn't........ITS THE NBA. Also he is good at sliding or manuevering his body while he is in the air before someone tries to take a charge on him at the time.

BTownTeamsRKing
04-16-2009, 05:36 PM
How about watching the games instead of just trying to make judgments off of stats? The guy does not get favorable officiating on the defensive end at all, he simply doesn't commit fouls. There's a reason that, despite the fact that LeBron never gets called for fouls, the Cavs foul as much as other teams. It's because they're still fouling, they just do a good job of moving him around in the defense or taking him out at the right time so HE doesn't get the fouls. If officials simply weren't calling them for fouls, it would be impossible for them to have fouled as many times as they have this season.

Again, the reason he doesn't get called for fouls is because he doesn't foul. He usually comes out of games in the last minute of quarters when he's one away from being in "foul trouble" (with 1 foul in the 1st, 2 in the 2nd, 3 in the 3rd), they switch on pick and rolls so he's not on quick ballhandlers when he has fouls, they're quick to come to him on help defense so he doesn't need to foul, he doesn't play any help defense when he has fouls, and he never fouls on fast breaks or easy layups.

It's not bad reffing, it's great coaching and great execution. Mike Brown easily deserves to be the coach of the year IMHO, simply because he's managed to keep this a great defensive team despite often hiding his best defender to keep him out of foul trouble.

im too lazy to respond to this whole thing but ill say this.

1. If u discredit this stat, i dont know what to tell u. You are ignoring facts.
2. how about coach of the year for Doc Rivers winning 62 games without KG for 24 of em.

SMS07
04-16-2009, 09:38 PM
Interesting question muh man. I really don't know. I would hate that if that were to be the case. Obviously NBA marketing is very much geared towards Lebron, but would Stern go that far. It's hard to believe, but, at the same time, it's not considering the history of conspiracies of the NBA (Ewing, MJ, etc.).

First of all, yes Stern would go that far because he already has. Why are you acting like the NBA just started favoritism with lebron? I agree that lebron gets special treatment, but u act like the lakers never have and kobe never has either. Dude... be realistic. Kobe always got the calls. The reason why he hasnt gotten all the calls this year is because he is no longer the best player and is no longer the nba's princess. Lebron is. Kobe's turn is up. Now it's lebron's turn.

And you need to stop acting like the lakers never got calls because the nba won the lakers the championship in 2002 after that ridiculous game 6 against the kings. The NBA also won the lakers game 5 against the spurs last year. Also, in the regular season game, fisher fouled monta ellis but they called the foul on ellis instead because they wanted their big showtime money lakers to win. I can name plenty more games over the years. The NBA has been making all the calls for the lakers since 2001 and this is the first year they havent. So after 8 years, now you wanna complain? Ur like a spoiled selfish child that hasn't realized how grateful he should be and demands more.

I agree with u that lebron gets the royal treatment now, but stop acting like the lakers and kobe never have.

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 09:59 PM
First of all, yes Stern would go that far because he already has.

There is no evidence that HE has, but there have been quite a few questionable moments in NBA history.


Why are you acting like the NBA just started favoritism with lebron?

I'm not. I was just shown the article by someone and thought I'd share.


I agree that lebron gets special treatment, but u act like the lakers never have and kobe never has either.

I clearly stated in this thread that Kobe use to get the calls, not as drastically as Lebron though.


Dude... be realistic. Kobe always got the calls.

Between 2001 and 2003, I definitely agree. Other than that, no way. After Colorado, Kobe was never treated the same way by the referees.


The reason why he hasnt gotten all the calls this year is because he is no longer the best player and is no longer the nba's princess.

He hasn't been the NBA "princess" since 2003.


Lebron is. Kobe's turn is up. Now it's lebron's turn.

Seems like it.


And you need to stop acting like the lakers never got calls because the nba won the lakers the championship in 2002 after that ridiculous game 6 against the kings.

1) That was a Game 6. There was still a Game 7 for the Kings (even free-throws as well)

2) The Kings had more free-throws in that series than the Lakers. In fact, they had two of the largest free-throw disparity games.


The NBA also won the lakers game 5 against the spurs last year.

How is that? The Lakers and Spurs both had 18 free-throw attempts and had a similar amount of personal fouls (21 to 19).


Also, in the regular season game, fisher fouled monta ellis but they called the foul on ellis instead because they wanted their big showtime money lakers to win.

Actually, Fisher sold that pretty well. That was a big-time flop, which I called even before the play.


I can name plenty more games over the years.

Same here. Recall Game 2 of the 2008 NBA Finals? Do you recall the entire 2004 NBA Finals series? The Lakers have been ****ed just like any other team.


The NBA has been making all the calls for the lakers since 2001 and this is the first year they havent. So after 8 years, now you wanna complain?

I didn't realize that I wrote this article. I am seriously confused because, apparently, I wrote the article.

BTW--Yet again. Another post that has nothing to do with the thread and simply tries to deflect off the actual subject. Weird.


Ur like a spoiled selfish child that hasn't realized how grateful he should be and demands more.

You cant always get what you want, But if you try sometimes, well you might find You get what you need.

:rock:


I agree with u that lebron gets the royal treatment now, but stop acting like the lakers and kobe never have.

Stop acting like I didn't say multiple times that Kobe and the Lakers have gotten favorable calls and Kobe got favorable calls for a short period of time during the beginning of this decade.

homestarunner93
04-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Oh, and Kobe doesn't get any favorable treatment? :rolleyes:

Brooke
04-16-2009, 10:25 PM
^^ I watch every Laker game and if people think Kobe gets calls like LeBron and Wade do they arent watching the same games as me

Kobe gets calls sure but not like LeBron, Wade, CP3....

prodigy
04-16-2009, 10:29 PM
listen. all super-stars do. Nobody wants super-stars to foul out, or to make a bad play. this is common since. Kobe, WADE FOR SURE, lebron, AI(when he was good), jordon etc..... they all did and do. Just the way the game is played. You don't like it stop watching.

Lebron does not reach in much, or takes many charges. he does not gamble like that. So if you went threw every single game he's played. he might avg 0.02 more fouls.

S.J.Basketball
04-16-2009, 10:49 PM
You'd think there'd be more charging calls on a dood of this size.

Zefflin
04-16-2009, 11:10 PM
Congrats on being the smartest basketball mind in the world. It must be tough

Whoa whoa whoa, I AM mother ****er.

But seriously, I think you both are great wells of basketball knowledge but one of you is steering off coarse currently...

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 11:31 PM
since you wanna put it out there, cause you are obviously very mature, do you really think I told you any truth about me or my family? I wouldn't tell you where I took a **** last.

I hope not. Not only is that highly disturbing, but I definitely would not want to know where, how, or when you took a ****.


And what do you know about basketball?

:eyebrow:


I see you on Kobe, Laker and LeBron forums.

There is a Kobe and Lebron forum?


Look, if you wanna jerk off to a picture of Kobe, that is youre deal.

:laugh2: This is what I call projecting. You jerk off to Lebron so you project your own insecurities onto me. :laugh2:


Have fun.

I will.


I bring valid points to the table in every thread I go to.

Sure you do.


But you aren't worth it.

Then don't respond to me. Ignore me.


So, break this paragraph up, and act cool.

I just did. :D


You are good at being a tough guy on a website.

Thanks. I'm not sure how expressing my opinion qualifies me as a tough guy, but I guess that's how you see it. Weird though.

Hawkeye15
04-16-2009, 11:34 PM
I hope not. Not only is that highly disturbing, but I definitely would not want to know where, how, or when you took a ****.



:eyebrow:



There is a Kobe and Lebron forum?



:laugh2: This is what I call projecting. You jerk off to Lebron so you project your own insecurities onto me. :laugh2:



I will.



Sure you do.



Then don't respond to me. Ignore me.



I just did. :D



Thanks. I'm not sure how expressing my opinion qualifies me as a tough guy, but I guess that's how you see it. Weird though.


someday puberty will hit, and you will grow up. Until then, work on those layups.

Zefflin
04-16-2009, 11:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9shtBExHgk&NR=1

still1ballin
04-16-2009, 11:44 PM
HAHAH armin! you're the best when it comes to getting under someones skin! lOL!

ARMIN12NBA
04-16-2009, 11:46 PM
HAHAH armin! you're the best when it comes to getting under someones skin! lOL!

Thanks muh man. :cheers: :hi5:

BTownTeamsRKing
04-16-2009, 11:50 PM
this argument has run its course.

end results:

Lakers and Celtics fans are in agreement with everything on this. some how ha
Cavs fans deny any and all excess of treatment of LBJ in comparison to Kobe.
Neutral fans basically say either its all the same star treatment or shut up and stop whining.

Best result: i win by summing this all up.

Wierd Result: the tags are hilarious, yet true.

lakers4sho
04-16-2009, 11:53 PM
No ARMIN12NBA is the winner

LeBrowns
04-16-2009, 11:54 PM
lol...this is nothing but whining.

BTownTeamsRKing
04-16-2009, 11:59 PM
No ARMIN12NBA is the winner

haha sure. i was kiddin about the winner. no one really wins these things. on some sports sites, they have ppl vote on the argument winner. cool concept, but the homer fans (like me sometimes) skew the results

charlsdq7
04-17-2009, 12:01 AM
thats crazy!!!!!!!!1

Zefflin
04-17-2009, 12:03 AM
Haha, it's like listening to Chris Reeve argue with Steven Hawking about who's more handicap.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 12:36 AM
lol...this is nothing but whining.

AKA Facts. Everybody has their own words for things though.

C-Wick925
04-17-2009, 01:04 AM
The nba is rigged. whomever the nba markets all year ends up in the finals. (kobe and KG last year.) and its gonna be kobe/paul vs lebron this year with lebron winning and prolly taking the next 6 of 8 something like jordan did.

Tim duncan same story.. the only ones that won the title when they weren't marketed were the pistons and i just think thats because the lakers were playing so bad that the officials couldn't win them games for them.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 01:12 AM
The nba is rigged. whomever the nba markets all year ends up in the finals. (kobe and KG last year.) and its gonna be kobe/paul vs lebron this year with lebron winning and prolly taking the next 6 of 8 something like jordan did.

Tim duncan same story.. the only ones that won the title when they weren't marketed were the pistons and i just think thats because the lakers were playing so bad that the officials couldn't win them games for them.

The Pistons actually got 15-20 more free-throws in almost every game that series.

I wonder if another "2006 Finals" will happen if the Cavs make the Finals.

C-Wick925
04-17-2009, 01:18 AM
Because the lakers were playing so sloppy and the pistons were motivated. like i said they played so bad there was nothing they could do for them

BHBrad
04-17-2009, 01:37 AM
Yeah, LeBron gets away with a bunch of stuff, but then so did Jordan. Fact is, stars get away with a ton of stuff in the NBA. It's been like that for years and isn't going to change anytime soon.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 01:41 AM
Yeah, LeBron gets away with a bunch of stuff, but then so did Jordan. Fact is, stars get away with a ton of stuff in the NBA. It's been like that for years and isn't going to change anytime soon.

True.

ctwn4life
04-17-2009, 01:44 AM
So.....Kobe, Wade, n Pierce don't get favorable calls??? It happens to EVERY superstar....This thread is just gonna lead to soooooooooooooo many homers jumping on here and saying this n that.....When the truth is it happens to every big name player...I hated it until the Cavs got Lebron...For those of u who don't get the privledge of having a superstar on your team.....No need to fuss n get mad....It'll be your turn one day.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 01:46 AM
So.....Kobe, Wade, n Pierce don't get favorable calls??? It happens to EVERY superstar....This thread is just gonna lead to soooooooooooooo many homers jumping on here and saying this n that.....When the truth is it happens to every big name player...I hated it until the Cavs got Lebron...For those of u who don't get the privledge of having a superstar on your team.....No need to fuss n get mad....It'll be your turn one day.

It happens for many players. Some more than others though and this year was a very, very strange case in which the treatment was even dubbed impossible.

ctwn4life
04-17-2009, 01:59 AM
It happens for many players. Some more than others though and this year was a very, very strange case in which the treatment was even dubbed impossible.

I read the article u posted and everything.....But, how many 4th qtrs has Lebron sat out this year? There has been quite a few.. I'd have to say that throws off those figures just a little bit. I've seen people say Kobe doesn't get as much treatment as Lebron.....I have to respectfully disagree with that. Both Lebron and Kobe are amazing players with freakish talents. I think that most of the time when they do/don't get the calls is b/c it's already expected of the 2 to make the right play.

Anyways, this thread is pretty much irrelevant now....Playoffs are starting off this weekend and this bickering back and forth shouldn't matter in the first place.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 02:04 AM
I read the article u posted and everything.....But, how many 4th qtrs has Lebron sat out this year? There has been quite a few.. I'd have to say that throws off those figures just a little bit. I've seen people say Kobe doesn't get as much treatment as Lebron.....I have to respectfully disagree with that. Both Lebron and Kobe are amazing players with freakish talents. I think that most of the time when they do/don't get the calls is b/c it's already expected of the 2 to make the right play.

Anyways, this thread is pretty much irrelevant now....Playoffs are starting off this weekend and this bickering back and forth shouldn't matter in the first place.

Lebron still averaged 38 MPG to Bryant's 36 MPG. Following Bryant's career from when he was a youngster to now, it is clear he hasn't been viewed the same since Colorado. Very clear.

ctwn4life
04-17-2009, 02:08 AM
Lebron still averaged 38 MPG to Bryant's 36 MPG. Following Bryant's career from when he was a youngster to now, it is clear he hasn't been viewed the same since Colorado. Very clear.

And whose fault is that???? Kobe put himself in that situation.....Can't even argue it....Have u seen his wife???? To cheat on THAT with the skeez that he did....He should be checked for a mental illness as well.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 02:18 AM
And whose fault is that???? Kobe put himself in that situation.....Can't even argue it....Have u seen his wife???? To cheat on THAT with the skeez that he did....He should be checked for a mental illness as well.

No doubt. What he did was very wrong. It still doesn't mean the referees shouldn't ref the game fairly when he is involved. Many players do bad things off the court, but the refs have a job to do. I'll tell you this. When I was taking a reffing class, we were told to completely forget about friendships, names, etc. Just call it by the book and that is the right way. Kobe cheated on his wife. It's bad. The ref shouldn't be thinking about that during the game and how to try to make the game harder for him.

BTW--Kobe did not know he was going to be falsely accused of rape. Although cheating is bad, the whole rape thing is on a whole other level.

G-Funk
04-17-2009, 02:25 AM
:pity:

G-Funk
04-17-2009, 02:25 AM
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

pete_one
04-17-2009, 02:31 AM
you dont call fouls on the king, how dare you!:rolleyes:

quade36
04-17-2009, 08:46 AM
This is seriously one of the worst threads I have ever read through. I usually stay away from general basketball posts because they are just opinion posts about how one player is better than another. But, reality check. ALL SUPERSTARS GET SUPERSTAR TREATMENT. This includes lucky James, Don Kobe, 'The Greatest' Wade, heck it even includes Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett, and Carmelo.

Instead of seeing how superstars don't get foul calls, a better observation or thread discussion would be to see how many average players get shafted because they put a hand on a superstar and get a foul called on them. I feel that would be a much much better, less opinionated discussion.

Grow up people.... :cool:

DitchDat
04-17-2009, 09:08 AM
I thought about this too... It's crazy

asandhu23
04-17-2009, 10:05 AM
Good defense=being aggressive=picking up a few fouls.

Plus, it's never been done before that a player who plays that many minutes did not get in foul trouble in a single game in their season.

But yah, lets all ignore it. It's easier that way. :eyebrow:


uh dude its been done before....very famously by wilt chamberlain who went through his whole career with something like 5 foulouts total. if you know NBA, he is the best defender+ scorer in nba's history.

lakers4sho
04-17-2009, 11:14 AM
uh dude its been done before....very famously by wilt chamberlain who went through his whole career with something like 5 foulouts total. if you know NBA, he is the best defender+ scorer in nba's history.

You have to incorporate the fact that the NBA didn't tighten up in calling fouls until modern basketball started (post Jordan). Handchecking was legal, and most teams played a little more physical back then without being penalized.

dtmagnet
04-17-2009, 11:51 AM
Dwight Howard gets in foul trouble all the time, at least when the Raptors play him. I've heard of the star players getting the refs favour on the offensive end but never on the defensive end.

cmellofan15
04-17-2009, 12:31 PM
Lol those tags :laugh:

king4day
04-17-2009, 12:37 PM
I don't watch his games enough to make fair judgement.
If Kobe and Wade are as close as they are with their foul averages (as seen in the article), then I don't see why we don't get the same thread for the other two players.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2009, 05:09 PM
some Laker fans know no bias limits. I have watched countless games where Kobe gets phantom calls as well. Stars get the calls. Kobe fans think Wade and Lebron get more, and vice versa. If you care that much, write youre little whines to Stu Jackson. I am sure he, as many others, value youre opinion about as much as a rash.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 05:55 PM
some Laker fans know no bias limits.

It was an article written by a writer who is not a Laker fan. A team executive gave his input and he is not a Laker fan either.


I have watched countless games where Kobe gets phantom calls as well.

Did I not say Kobe gets his share of favorable treatment as well? I did say so. That is not what the thread is about though. It is about an epic season by Lebron. Why do you insist on bringing up Kobe?


Stars get the calls.

We have all agreed upon this.


Kobe fans think Wade and Lebron get more, and vice versa.

I'm pretty sure everybody agrees that Lebron gets the most (with Wade in second--2006 NBA Finals).


If you care that much, write youre little whines to Stu Jackson.

Will do.


I am sure he, as many others, value youre opinion about as much as a rash.

In some ancient cultures rashes are known to be very telling and indicative of the future so I'm sure he will definitely value my opinion like a rash was valued towards those ancient cultures. :D

G-Funk
04-17-2009, 08:37 PM
some Laker fans know no bias limits. I have watched countless games where Kobe gets phantom calls as well. Stars get the calls. Kobe fans think Wade and Lebron get more, and vice versa. If you care that much, write youre little whines to Stu Jackson. I am sure he, as many others, value youre opinion about as much as a rash.

LOl Bias! Have you looked at yourself in the mirror lately, This is not about Lebron,Kobe or Wade, I don't think it's LEbrons fault that Espn/NBA kiss his *** everywhere he turns. As a fan of the sport It's a big consern that the NBA is looking like WWE.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2009, 08:43 PM
LOl Bias! Have you looked at yourself in the mirror lately, This is not about Lebron,Kobe or Wade, I don't think it's LEbrons fault that Espn/NBA kiss his *** everywhere he turns. As a fan of the sport It's a big consern that the NBA is looking like WWE.

well, I don't watch ESPN. If you don't like what they are saying, you could always turn it off. And Kobe had this kind of coverage before he got in trouble with the law, and has had the limelight for 4 years. THere is a better player in town now, time to move over.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2009, 08:45 PM
It was an article written by a writer who is not a Laker fan. A team executive gave his input and he is not a Laker fan either.



Did I not say Kobe gets his share of favorable treatment as well? I did say so. That is not what the thread is about though. It is about an epic season by Lebron. Why do you insist on bringing up Kobe?



We have all agreed upon this.



I'm pretty sure everybody agrees that Lebron gets the most (with Wade in second--2006 NBA Finals).



Will do.



In some ancient cultures rashes are known to be very telling and indicative of the future so I'm sure he will definitely value my opinion like a rash was valued towards those ancient cultures. :D

haha, nice. So has sacrificing virgins, but I don't know if that applies anymore
LeBron is the best, and most marketable player in basketball. Therefore, he gets more calls. It has been that way since before you were born.

LA_Raiders
04-17-2009, 08:54 PM
I hate ****ing LeBroom lover D.Stern....

I hope Bos beat LeBrooms ***..........

TheShowzOver
04-17-2009, 08:55 PM
I honestly will not mind seeing the Lakers destroy the Cavs in the Finals if that's what it comes to. I really would not care, one bit.

IndiansFan337
04-17-2009, 09:26 PM
Never has a player in NBA history been treated so favorably by the officials. What Lebron has accomplished in terms of favorable treatment has even been deemed as "impossible." Say "Hello" to the Lebron era.





Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith2_090406.html)

It's pretty amazing. Many have stated how great Lebron's defense has been this season. It's interesting because usually when a player picks up fouls, it means they are being aggressive defensively. It is usually a good sign. Lebron doesn't pick up fouls...at all. It truly makes you wonder...
This really is ironic, because if you look at how many plays LeBron gets fouled on drives to the hoop yet there is no call because with his strength you cannot always tell when he gets hit.

The Prodigy
04-17-2009, 09:49 PM
Lebron gets cheap calls for him like anyother Star player such as Kobe and Wade. But when it comes to the defensive side then Lebron gets more treatment than any. I've witnessed plays where there is an obvious foul and Lebron disagrees. Lebron would then follow and harass the refs and there would be no technical foul that would be called on other superstars. Lebron show-boats and is allowed to get away with anything even worse than we thought of KG. Lebron gets treatment from the refs in a single game that players such as Kevin Martin, Gerald Walllace, and other borderline stars get an entire season.

Lebron23
04-17-2009, 10:11 PM
Love to see the Cavaliers beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals. Chokebe Bryant and Phil Jackson should retire because the last time they won an NBA Championship was when Shaq was still playing for the Los Angeles Lakers.

5 NBA Finals Appearance, and still Zero NBA Finals MVP.

GangstaFoLife
04-17-2009, 10:13 PM
lmao at tha tags

im glad someone learns from me

Bluerapoileagle
04-17-2009, 10:14 PM
LeBron definately gets special treatment. Look at about 1:20 of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvO-CQUIGg0

That's so obvious it's not even funny.

G-Funk
04-17-2009, 10:22 PM
well, I don't watch ESPN. If you don't like what they are saying, you could always turn it off. And Kobe had this kind of coverage before he got in trouble with the law, and has had the limelight for 4 years. THere is a better player in town now, time to move over.

That's just your opinion and since your a Laker/Kobe hater your opinion is pretty much worthless.

Also Kobe got it so now it's ok? No player should be bigger then the league, I don't care if it's Kobe, Jordan or Wade, fact is the NBA should stay away from ithe game and just let the best teams win.

Brooke
04-17-2009, 10:25 PM
Love to see the Cavaliers beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals. Chokebe Bryant and Phil Jackson should retire because the last time they won an NBA Championship was when Shaq was still playing for the Los Angeles Lakers.

5 NBA Finals Appearance, and still Zero NBA Finals MVP.

Kobe never got swept in the Finals unlike Lebrick

and people call Kobe/Laker fans bias and homers :rolleyes:

Lebron23
04-17-2009, 10:31 PM
Kobe never got swept in the Finals unlike Lebrick

and people call Kobe/Laker fans bias and homers :rolleyes:

But he choked in the 2004 and 2008 NBA Finals. And He only averaged 15 ppg against the Indiana Pacers in the 2000 NBA Finals.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 10:34 PM
Love to see the Cavaliers beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals. Chokebe Bryant and Phil Jackson should retire because the last time they won an NBA Championship was when Shaq was still playing for the Los Angeles Lakers.

5 NBA Finals Appearance, and still Zero NBA Finals MVP.

Who cares about the Finals MVP. I care about the wins. Kobe Bryant still has three championships to LeChoke's (this is a common term I have seen, I have never heard your term...which is stupid because Kobe doesn't choke) 0.

FYI--Bryant shot 53% and 41% against the Spurs and Celtics in the playoffs. LeChoke shot 35% and 35% against the same two teams. Interesting...:cool:

Lebron23
04-17-2009, 10:37 PM
Who cares about the Finals MVP. I care about the wins. Kobe Bryant still has three championships to LeChoke's (this is a common term I have seen, I have never heard your term...which is stupid because Kobe doesn't choke) 0.

FYI--Bryant shot 53% and 41% against the Spurs and Celtics in the playoffs. LeChoke shot 35% and 35% against the same two teams. Interesting...:cool:

Who cares about this Thread? You are just a worthless troll. LeBron plays in a Small Market Team, and Stern doesn't wants Cleveland to win an NBA Championship because he wants LeBron to sign with the Knicks or Nets in 2010.

And Kobe is already a 13-14 yrs. NBA Veteran, but he cannot win an NBA Championship as the No.1 option of his team.

I think he should retire if the Los Angeles Lakers fail to win the Crown this year.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 10:41 PM
But he choked in the 2004 and 2008 NBA Finals.

Not really. I could say the same for Lebron who supposedly "choked" in the 2007 Finals.


And He only averaged 15 ppg against the Indiana Pacers in the 2000 NBA Finals.

How old are you bro? You must be a youngin because if you were watching back then, then you would know that Kobe sprained his ankle in Game 2 and missed Game 3. He played with a busted up ankle for the entire series pretty much.

In Game 1, Kobe held Reggie Miller to 1 of 16 shooting. He shut him down defensively. In Game 2, Kobe got injured with a sprained ankle (only played like 10 minutes). In Game 3, Kobe did NOT play and the Lakers lost. In Game 4, Kobe came back and the Lakers won with Shaq sidelined on the bench and Kobe scoring 28 (9 in overtime, GW shot). The Lakers got blown out in Game 5 and the Lakers won the championship in 6 Games.

Brooke
04-17-2009, 10:44 PM
Not really. I could say the same for Lebron who supposedly "choked" in the 2007 Finals.



How old are you bro? You must be a youngin because if you were watching back then, then you would know that Kobe sprained his ankle in Game 2 and missed Game 3. He played with a busted up ankle for the entire series pretty much.

In Game 1, Kobe held Reggie Miller to 1 of 16 shooting. He shut him down defensively. In Game 2, Kobe got injured with a sprained ankle (only played like 10 minutes). In Game 3, Kobe did NOT play and the Lakers lost. In Game 4, Kobe came back and the Lakers won with Shaq sidelined on the bench and Kobe scoring 28 (9 in overtime, GW shot). The Lakers got blown out in Game 5 and the Lakers won the championship in 6 Games.

:clap:

Funny how it is called choking for Kobe but not Lebron :rolleyes:

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Who cares about this Thread?

Anybody who likes to be presented with facts and discuss them.


You are just a worthless troll.

Says the worthless troll. Keep on projecting muh man.


LeBron plays in a Small Market Team, and Stern doesn't wants Cleveland to win an NBA Championship because he wants LeBron to sign with the Knicks or Nets in 2010.

Keep believing that if it helps you sleep at night after every Cavs loss. Fact is, is that Lebron has been favored more than any other player in NBA history. What he got in terms of preferential treatment was even deemed impossible. That's not me, these are experts and facts.


And Kobe is already a 13-14 yrs. NBA Veteran, but he cannot win an NBA Championship as the No.1 option of his team.

Like I said, how old are you? It's like you have no idea about NBA history. Kobe has only been given the #1 option reign for 4 years...Less than Lebron. Yet he has produced more wins in the Finals. Interesting. :cool:


I think he should retire if the Los Angeles Lakers fail to win the Crown this year.

LOL. Not even a hating dumbass would say that ********. The dude is 30.

BTW--Lebron should retire if he doesn't win it all this year.

Do you see how incredibly stupid that sounds?

Brooke
04-17-2009, 10:50 PM
LeBron plays in a Small Market Team, and Stern doesn't wants Cleveland to win an NBA Championship because he wants LeBron to sign with the Knicks or Nets in 2010.

Keep believing that if it makes you feel better. It is blatantly obvious how much he gets away with





And Kobe is already a 13-14 yrs. NBA Veteran, but he cannot win an NBA Championship as the No.1 option of his team.

I think he should retire if the Los Angeles Lakers fail to win the Crown this year.

I cant take anything you say seriously after this

Lebron23
04-17-2009, 10:50 PM
2002 NBA Playoffs Kings vs. Lakers ( Stern favored the Lakers over the Kings because they are a Big Market team, and he wanted the Lakers to joined the 1990's Bulls as the 2nd team since the 1990's to win 3 Consecutive NBA Championships)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4t5RMFt5u8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XmeA5VmhX4

Los Angeles Cheatersssssssssssssss.

That's why I am glad when the Pistons owned them in the 2004 NBA Finals.

philab
04-17-2009, 10:59 PM
Aside from ARMIN, why is it that all Lakers fans HATE LeBron? (ARMIN has expressed before his reasons for disliking LeBron)


I mean, I could understand if LA were a small market (never hearing hype about your team), but it's not.
I could understand if LA and Cleveland were huge rivals or had met in the Finals (like with Boston), but that's not the case.
I could understand if LA didn't have a superstar on its team (sick of the "superstar NBA"), but that's not the case.


Seriously, I just don't get it. Why all the hate for a player that plays in ****ing Cleveland? Because he was hyped as a junior in HS? Kobe started in the All-Star game in his 2nd year when he didn't even start for the Lakers -- that's sounds like hype to me (this is sort of irrelevant, but it should give perspective). And that's not LeBron's fault anyway; it's the media's.

I don't get it. I'm a Cavaliers fan and I don't hate Kobe. Someone want to fill me in?

Lebron23
04-17-2009, 11:03 PM
Because deep inside they know that LeBron James is the best player in the NBA, and before LeBron retires he's going to win more NBA Regular Season and Finals MVP than Kobe Bryant.

I never hated Kobe Bryant, but I dislike his fan boys, who always compared him to Michael Jordan.

Even though Kobe never won an NBA Championship as the best player on his team.

Kobe is one of the best players in the Post Jordan Era, but he ain't the GOAT because he never averaged more than 27 ppg in the NBA Finals.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2009, 11:04 PM
Aside from ARMIN, why is it that all Lakers fans HATE LeBron? (ARMIN has expressed before his reasons for disliking LeBron)


I mean, I could understand if LA were a small market (never hearing hype about your team), but it's not.
I could understand if LA and Cleveland were huge rivals or had met in the Finals (like with Boston), but that's not the case.
I could understand if LA didn't have a superstar on its team (sick of the "superstar NBA"), but that's not the case.


Seriously, I just don't get it. Why all the hate for a player that plays in ****ing Cleveland? Because he was hyped as a junior in HS? Kobe started in the All-Star game in his 2nd year when he didn't even start for the Lakers -- that's sounds like hype to me (this is sort of irrelevant, but it should give perspective). And that's not LeBron's fault anyway; it's the media's.

I don't get it. I'm a Cavaliers fan and I don't hate Kobe. Someone want to fill me in?


the biggest reason many Laker fans hate LeBron is their boy is getting knocked off the top of the mountain, he is getting more coverage, has a better team record, etc. Its not easy realizing that youre favorite is no longer the king.

philab
04-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Aside from ARMIN, why is it that all Lakers fans HATE LeBron? (ARMIN has expressed before his reasons for disliking LeBron)


I mean, I could understand if LA were a small market (never hearing hype about your team), but it's not.
I could understand if LA and Cleveland were huge rivals or had met in the Finals (like with Boston), but that's not the case.
I could understand if LA didn't have a superstar on its team (sick of the "superstar NBA"), but that's not the case.


Seriously, I just don't get it. Why all the hate for a player that plays in ****ing Cleveland? Because he was hyped as a junior in HS? Kobe started in the All-Star game in his 2nd year when he didn't even start for the Lakers -- that's sounds like hype to me (this is sort of irrelevant, but it should give perspective). And that's not LeBron's fault anyway; it's the media's.

I don't get it. I'm a Cavaliers fan and I don't hate Kobe. Someone want to fill me in?


No offense guys ^^^, but I want to hear it from a Lakers fan. It's not that I so much disagree with you, but I'll give them a chance.

So, quoting my own post, any Lakers fans care to respond?

Hawkeye15
04-17-2009, 11:08 PM
That's just your opinion and since your a Laker/Kobe hater your opinion is pretty much worthless.

Also Kobe got it so now it's ok? No player should be bigger then the league, I don't care if it's Kobe, Jordan or Wade, fact is the NBA should stay away from ithe game and just let the best teams win.

I am not a Kobe hater at all. But, if I don't agree that he is the messiah by some Laker fans, I get labeled as that. That's fine. And LeBron is not bigger than the league. It is comical to me what has happened the past year for Laker fans. KG is all of a sudden a disrespectful chump, in his 14th year, and LeBron is the anti christ. Its pathetic. All around. Get over the fact that there is a better player now, maybe 2, than Kobe.
and opinions are all these boards are. Just because you have so many stats that you're eyes bleed, doesn't mean you will convince me of you're opinion, and vice versa. Stats are pretty. Games are played on a wood floor.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:09 PM
Aside from ARMIN, why is it that all Lakers fans HATE LeBron? (ARMIN has expressed before his reasons for disliking LeBron)


I mean, I could understand if LA were a small market (never hearing hype about your team), but it's not.
I could understand if LA and Cleveland were huge rivals or had met in the Finals (like with Boston), but that's not the case.
I could understand if LA didn't have a superstar on its team (sick of the "superstar NBA"), but that's not the case.


Seriously, I just don't get it. Why all the hate for a player that plays in ****ing Cleveland? Because he was hyped as a junior in HS? Kobe started in the All-Star game in his 2nd year when he didn't even start for the Lakers -- that's sounds like hype to me (this is sort of irrelevant, but it should give perspective). And that's not LeBron's fault anyway; it's the media's.

I don't get it. I'm a Cavaliers fan and I don't hate Kobe. Someone want to fill me in?

Maybe cause he's so arrogant? That would be my guess. From the constant whining, dancing, muscle flexing, photo pictures, and condescending remarks, it is pretty easy to see why somebody wouldn't like the dude. Or maybe it's the double standards in the media?

Wilson
04-17-2009, 11:11 PM
Aside from ARMIN, why is it that all Lakers fans HATE LeBron? (ARMIN has expressed before his reasons for disliking LeBron)


I mean, I could understand if LA were a small market (never hearing hype about your team), but it's not.
I could understand if LA and Cleveland were huge rivals or had met in the Finals (like with Boston), but that's not the case.
I could understand if LA didn't have a superstar on its team (sick of the "superstar NBA"), but that's not the case.


Seriously, I just don't get it. Why all the hate for a player that plays in ****ing Cleveland? Because he was hyped as a junior in HS? Kobe started in the All-Star game in his 2nd year when he didn't even start for the Lakers -- that's sounds like hype to me (this is sort of irrelevant, but it should give perspective). And that's not LeBron's fault anyway; it's the media's.

I don't get it. I'm a Cavaliers fan and I don't hate Kobe. Someone want to fill me in?

I don't hate, or even dislike LeBron :shrug:

still1ballin
04-17-2009, 11:11 PM
the biggest reason many Laker fans hate LeBron is their boy is getting knocked off the top of the mountain, he is getting more coverage, has a better team record, etc. Its not easy realizing that youre favorite is no longer the king.

IMO I don't hate LeBron because he "Knocked" Kobe of the top of the mountain as you say, but I dislike him because of his cockyness. That I cannot stand. After him guranteeing a championship was the last draw for me. Who is this guy think he is to make such a statement we he really has no resume as far as championship goes.

philab
04-17-2009, 11:11 PM
Maybe cause he's so arrogant? That would be my guess. From the constant whining, dancing, muscle flexing, photo pictures, and condescending remarks, it is pretty easy to see why somebody wouldn't like the dude. Or maybe it's the double standards in the media?

C'mon man, I know your reasons. And there's nothing wrong with them. I just wanted to hear it from other Lakers fans. Now you've given them ideas . . . :mad:

;)

Hawkeye15
04-17-2009, 11:13 PM
Who cares about the Finals MVP. I care about the wins. Kobe Bryant still has three championships to LeChoke's (this is a common term I have seen, I have never heard your term...which is stupid because Kobe doesn't choke) 0.

FYI--Bryant shot 53% and 41% against the Spurs and Celtics in the playoffs. LeChoke shot 35% and 35% against the same two teams. Interesting...:cool:

Kobe, as well as Wade, should be naming one of their kids Shaquille. I am pretty certain, that if LeBron came into the league with a prime Shaq on his team, he would have some hardware by now.
You and you're stats are funny. Kobe's supporting cast is exponentially better than LeBron's. He has always been allowed more freedom. The one year he made the playoffs with garbage, goodnight first round. LeBron made it to the finals with that same cast basically.
So, break this up, rip it apart, and act cool. You are awesome at that. I mean, you are the resident LeBron/Kobe expert. Could you even name the starting lineup for Milwaukee, and where those players came from without the internet? I doubt it, but you sure act holier than thou.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:13 PM
Because deep inside they know that LeBron James is the best player in the NBA

I didn't like the dude since way before he was in the NBA.


, and before LeBron retires he's going to win more NBA Regular Season and Finals MVP than Kobe Bryant.

Maybe.


I never hated Kobe Bryant, but I dislike his fan boys, who always compared him to Michael Jordan.

I never hated Lebron James until everybody pre-determined he was going to be better than Michael Jordan when he was in middle school.


Even though Kobe never won an NBA Championship as the best player on his team.

Even though Lebron never won an NBA Championship...at all.


Kobe is one of the best players in the Post Jordan Era, but he ain't the GOAT because he never averaged more than 27 ppg in the NBA Finals.

Lebron IS one of the best players in the Post Jordan Era, but he ain't the GOAT because he never averaged more than 23 PPG or 35% in the Finals or less than 6 TO per game.

Ummm...dude. Can you see it? LMAO.

philab
04-17-2009, 11:14 PM
Also, the dancing and photo pictures aren't really great reasons to hate someone. That's the team's ritual and they've kept it going because of all the success. It may be very, very stupid, but that's really not a reason to hate a player.

(And I'm using "hate" as a synonym for "dislike")

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:14 PM
2002 NBA Playoffs Kings vs. Lakers ( Stern favored the Lakers over the Kings because they are a Big Market team, and he wanted the Lakers to joined the 1990's Bulls as the 2nd team since the 1990's to win 3 Consecutive NBA Championships)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4t5RMFt5u8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XmeA5VmhX4

Los Angeles Cheatersssssssssssssss.

That's why I am glad when the Pistons owned them in the 2004 NBA Finals.

Riiight.

Why didn't he help the Lakers in the WCF in the years previous?

Why did the Kings shoot more free-throws than the Lakers?

Why did the Pistons shoot more free-throws in every single game in the 2004 NBA Finals?

According to you, wouldn't Stern want the Lakers to win (especially in 2004)? Malone, Payton, etc. That would have been a GREAT story. Instead the Lakers got the short end of the stick in terms of refereeing. Why is this?

Why did the Lakers lose the 1989 Finals (I know there were injuries, but Stern could have done something, right?)? That would have given them the three-peat and given Kareem a ship on his way out. GREAT story.

Answer these questions buddy.

still1ballin
04-17-2009, 11:15 PM
Maybe cause he's so arrogant? That would be my guess. From the constant whining, dancing, muscle flexing, photo pictures, and condescending remarks, it is pretty easy to see why somebody wouldn't like the dude. Or maybe it's the double standards in the media?

Yeah, those reasons too, I cannot stand him, especially the flexinng......oh big whoop he thinks he is so strong because he whooped on the C's with no KG at the end of the season. It doesn't matter what you do in the season, its the playoffs the count. Cavs are lucky that KG is out because if the C's were healthy, IMO the C's would knock them out of the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2009, 11:15 PM
IMO I don't hate LeBron because he "Knocked" Kobe of the top of the mountain as you say, but I dislike him because of his cockyness. That I cannot stand. After him guranteeing a championship was the last draw for me. Who is this guy think he is to make such a statement we he really has no resume as far as championship goes.

If he were wearing a Lakers jersey, you would be infatuated with him. You, and many Laker or Heat fans, don't like him because he is arguably better than you're man. That is a fact, sorry. You can hate him for any reason you want, but you would kill to have him on you're team.

Brooke
04-17-2009, 11:18 PM
I love how some Lebron fans think they know why some of us hate him but they are completely off base

His arrogance and his cockiness has something to do it. He has to actually win something first before he even goes there. The double standards by some people towards him and even some of his fans have turned me in off in a big way

Hawkeye15
04-17-2009, 11:19 PM
this thread is about as exciting as knitting an afghan. Have fun with the LeBron bash. Later

philab
04-17-2009, 11:20 PM
I love how Lebron fans think they know why some of us hate him but they are completely off base

His arrogance and his cockiness has something to do it. He has to actually win something first before he even goes there. The double standards by some people towards him and even some of his fans have turned me in off in a big way

I asked an honest question. Never meant to start a flame war.


And honestly, he never (or hardly) says anything arrogant or cocky. You may think he acts arrogant or cocky, but really, who in the NBA doesn't?

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:20 PM
Kobe, as well as Wade, should be naming one of their kids Shaquille.

No they should not.


I am pretty certain, that if LeBron came into the league with a prime Shaq on his team, he would have some hardware by now.

I am pretty certain he would not considering HUGE chemistry issues. We have already gone through this so I'll leave it alone.


You and you're stats are funny.

They are hilarious actually.


Kobe's supporting cast is exponentially better than LeBron's.

Not really. Lebron has the PERFECT squad around him that compliment his game to the MAX.


He has always been allowed more freedom.

I know. Exactly. Lebron has always been allowed WAY more freedom. Kobe has been stuck into playing a very complicated and team oriented offense in the Triple Post Offense (AKA the Triangle). Thanks for agreeing with me muh man.


The one year he made the playoffs with garbage, goodnight first round.

In 7 games, against the best team in the league (arguably).


LeBron made it to the finals with that same cast basically.

Beating a Caron-less and Gilbert-less Wizards, a horrible Nets squad, and a Pistons team that refused to double team. Dwyane, Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Mike James, etc. all could have done the same.


So, break this up, rip it apart, and act cool.

:cool:


You are awesome at that.

Thanks joben!


I mean, you are the resident LeBron/Kobe expert.

No doubt.


Could you even name the starting lineup for Milwaukee, and where those players came from without the internet?

I could. I watch nearly every Lakers and Cavs game so I get to see the Bucks about 3-4 times a year.


I doubt it, but you sure act holier than thou.

Thanks, Kyle. :eyebrow:

still1ballin
04-17-2009, 11:20 PM
If he were wearing a Lakers jersey, you would be infatuated with him. You, and many Laker or Heat fans, don't like him because he is arguably better than you're man. That is a fact, sorry. You can hate him for any reason you want, but you would kill to have him on you're team.

Listen man, you don't know me, its not a fact, its your own opinion, if you want to think that Lebron has dethrowned Kobe, then fine, that is your own opinion, but in mines I still think Kobe is the better overall player. Just because Lebron has had a better year statistically then Kobe means that Kobe is 2nd and Lebron is 1st just like that? Like I said, before I never use to have a problem with LeBron, but ever since these pre game rituals and claming that his team will win a championship has put me over the top to dislike the guy for those reasons. Not only Laker fans, Heat fans, but I've seen Celtic fans dislike LeBron for the same reasons.

Teeboy1487
04-17-2009, 11:21 PM
I don't hate Lebron either. He is right on kobe's tail. I don't hate him for being gifted at basketball like some of you posters say how all laker fans hate Lebron.

Brooke
04-17-2009, 11:24 PM
Not only Laker fans, Heat fans, but I've seen Celtic fans dislike LeBron for the same reasons.

Yep I know plenty of non Laker fans who cant stand him for many of the reasons that have been already stated.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:24 PM
LeBron only have one NBA Finals Appearance, and he already have a better statsline than Kobe Bryant in his First trip in the NBA Finals.

No he didn't. Kobe's first Finals>>>>>Lebron's first Finals.


And if LeBron played with Shaq the Lakers could have won 5 NBA Championships because LeBron is unselfish

Not really.


, and he's going to be a more effective player in the Triangle Offense.

Not at all. Do you even know the execution and schemes of the Triple Post Offense and the different tweaking Jackson has done over the years? Heck, talk to Tex Winter about the TPO and he will tell you that Lebron is a No-No for that offense.

Heck, Jackson was being lured by the Cavs to coach there in 2005, but Jackson turned down the job specifically because he felt LBJ wasn't fit for the offense.


I never hated Kobe Bryant even though he's a rapist.

LOL. I feel sorry for you man. I really do. Ignore all the evidence that Kobe was in fact innocent and resort to that.

Brooke
04-17-2009, 11:26 PM
I never hated Kobe Bryant even though he's a rapist

Yeah because once again people go there when they have nothing else to say :rolleyes: Do you have proof?? Do you know this for a fact?? Probably not but anything to trash Kobe

thank you for proving my point

philab
04-17-2009, 11:30 PM
Not really. Lebron has the PERFECT squad around him that compliment his game to the MAX.



Yeah, they really do tell LeBron how good his game is to the MAX. ;)

But seriously, really?

I don't mean for this to have any bearing on Kobe vs. LeBron, but you really think the Lakers minus Kobe are WORSE than the Cavaliers minus LeBron?


There's no player of Gasol's quality on the Cavaliers. Throw in Odom, Ariza, and Bynum and the Cavaliers don't stand a chance.

I mean, if Kobe's support wasn't so good, then why has he taken a limited role all season? Isn't that the reason we're always given for his drop in numbers and minutes?

LeBron's support is fine and complements him well, but I think you're stretching here.

Teeboy1487
04-17-2009, 11:32 PM
Armin, don't waste your energy on those 12 year olds. Just ignore them.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:35 PM
The thing is, is that it is not always about looks. It is about chemistry on the court. You could assemble a bunch of great players on one team and if the chemistry isn't right then I guarantee they lose.

The Cavs are the epitome of the perfect fit surrounding a superstar wing...

Lebron is dominant at driving. The most dominant driver in the game of basketball, possibly ever. His game is about attacking the basket, playing P & R, and overpowering opponents. He doesn't have that outside shot.

Lebron's supporting cast is the PERFECT repellent towards stopping Lebron. Outside shooters allow for spacing, correct? The Cavs have FOUR players who are deadly from outside (shooting over 40%). He then has another player who shoots 38% from three (pretty damn good).

The three point shooting allows for terrific spacing, which then allows for Lebron to have a great lane for driving to the basket. The lane won't and can't be clogged very often as it will allow for wide open threes taken by the best three-point shooters in the league.

Another factor is the P & R department. Lebron has three very good mid-range shooting big men in Big Z, Joe Smith, and Anderson Varejao who will hit the shot or be able to provide Lebron with a great lane to the basket with the pick. Not to mention they are good defensive players who can rebound the ball.

Like I said, it is not about talent or looks.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:36 PM
Armin, don't waste your energy on those 12 year olds. Just ignore them.

I'm double tasking right here. I'm fixing myself a mighty fine double cheese-burger which I'm going to eat while watching my DVRed episodes of House. I'll be out soon enough. :D

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:37 PM
Yeah, they really do tell LeBron how good his game is to the MAX. ;)

But seriously, really?

I don't mean for this to have any bearing on Kobe vs. LeBron, but you really think the Lakers minus Kobe are WORSE than the Cavaliers minus LeBron?


There's no player of Gasol's quality on the Cavaliers. Throw in Odom, Ariza, and Bynum and the Cavaliers don't stand a chance.

I mean, if Kobe's support wasn't so good, then why has he taken a limited role all season? Isn't that the reason we're always given for his drop in numbers and minutes?

LeBron's support is fine and complements him well, but I think you're stretching here.

Lebron has a GREAT supporting cast. A downright perfect supporting cast for his abilities.

An absolute plethora of deadly and consistent outside shooters (he has 4 guys who shoot over 40% from three as well as Boobie who shoots 39%) who open up the lane for Lebron so the defense cannot clog up the lane as well (at least without allowing an open three). Good and solid rebounders/defenders on the inside to help rotate defensively. Mid-range shooters for bigs in Varejao and Big Z and Joe Smith who play the pick and roll to perfection with LBJ. A secondary playmaker in Mo Williams who takes pressure off in the clutch as Mo has been hitting shots and creating plays all year.

The Lakers have ZERO outside shooters who shoot above 40% and they have ZERO secondary playmakers. The Lakers have more talent, but the Cavs have the better pieces and fit surrounding a player like Lebron. Similar to the Rockets with Hakeem. It was Hakeem with a lot of outside shooters who spread the floor for him to dominate inside.

tjlipford
04-17-2009, 11:37 PM
Man how can you all not like Lebron cuz he is having fun. Its not disrespectful its having fun. Its not like he's doing it and we are 5th seed in the east. We are winning and we blow teams out whether people like it or not. Me personally I think that stuff they do is corny but that's them. The only way to stop them from doing it is beat them.

The argument about who is better between Kobe and Lebron can go on for days, so it is a personal opinion. Kobe has 3 rings with Shaq but its not like he wasnt doing his thang and is he supposed to apologize because he was playing with Shaq? Lebron has none and he is on the right path to get one. Anybody that watches basketball and has any sense cant really say anything bad about Kobes game. He is as polished as a basketball player can really get. Flat out he is cold on that court and he will turn it up in the Finals this year especially against Lebron guaranteed. Lebron is hungry and his game is stepped up major every year and you can argue that he is the best player, but it can go either way with Kobe or Lebron.

Lebron: All around better teammate. Stat monster.

Kobe: Most feared in the NBA. Best scorer I dont care if Wade leads the league in scoring, he cant score better than Kobe. He has the most clutch. Kobe scores when he want where he want and how he wants.

I am a Laker fan and know how deadly they are and Im a diehard Cleveland fan so when we meet in the Finals I think that will show the whole world who is better in my opinion. It will be one of the best finals to watch.

ARMIN12NBA
04-17-2009, 11:37 PM
The thing is, is that it is not always about looks. It is about chemistry on the court. You could assemble a bunch of great players on one team and if the chemistry isn't right then I guarantee they lose.

The Cavs are the epitome of the perfect fit surrounding a superstar wing...

Lebron is dominant at driving. The most dominant driver in the game of basketball, possibly ever. His game is about attacking the basket, playing P & R, and overpowering opponents. He doesn't have that outside shot.

Lebron's supporting cast is the PERFECT repellent towards stopping Lebron. Outside shooters allow for spacing, correct? The Cavs have FOUR players who are deadly from outside (shooting over 40%). He then has another player who shoots 38% from three (pretty damn good).

The three point shooting allows for terrific spacing, which then allows for Lebron to have a great lane for driving to the basket. The lane won't and can't be clogged very often as it will allow for wide open threes taken by the best three-point shooters in the league.

Another factor is the P & R department. Lebron has three very good mid-range shooting big men in Big Z, Joe Smith, and Anderson Varejao who will hit the shot or be able to provide Lebron with a great lane to the basket with the pick. Not to mention they are good defensive players who can rebound the ball.

Like I said, it is not about talent or looks.

What do you think philab?

Talent or chemsitry?

tjlipford
04-17-2009, 11:40 PM
You are right. Though I dont understand why Vujacic and Farmar are so inconsistent and dont shoot 40% from the three. Farmar fell off big time.

We finally did get the right players to compliment Lebrons game and now we should have no excuses.

GHOSTSNIPER
04-17-2009, 11:43 PM
His athleticism is what makes him a good defender,not his "defensive prowess".Just to add on...am I the only one to notice that Cleveland commits the most obvious traveling violations,and they never get called?I've seen up to 4 steps on occasion,up and down the roster.

philab
04-17-2009, 11:43 PM
The thing is, is that it is not always about looks. It is about chemistry on the court. You could assemble a bunch of great players on one team and if the chemistry isn't right then I guarantee they lose.

The Cavs are the epitome of the perfect fit surrounding a superstar wing...

Lebron is dominant at driving. The most dominant driver in the game of basketball, possibly ever. His game is about attacking the basket, playing P & R, and overpowering opponents. He doesn't have that outside shot.

Lebron's supporting cast is the PERFECT repellent towards stopping Lebron. Outside shooters allow for spacing, correct? The Cavs have FOUR players who are deadly from outside (shooting over 40%). He then has another player who shoots 38% from three (pretty damn good).

The three point shooting allows for terrific spacing, which then allows for Lebron to have a great lane for driving to the basket. The lane won't and can't be clogged very often as it will allow for wide open threes taken by the best three-point shooters in the league.

Another factor is the P & R department. Lebron has three very good mid-range shooting big men in Big Z, Joe Smith, and Anderson Varejao who will hit the shot or be able to provide Lebron with a great lane to the basket with the pick. Not to mention they are good defensive players who can rebound the ball.

Like I said, it is not about talent or looks.

Fair enough.

Although I could swing the argument around and say LeBron's supporting cast is so effective because he's so dominant. There's at least some truth to that, and you appear to be neglecting that fact.


And to be fair, LeBron is shooting 40% from 3PT since the start of February. I'm pretty sure Kobe can't say the same (although that's irrelevant).

Teeboy1487
04-17-2009, 11:44 PM
You are right. Though I dont understand why Vujacic and Farmar are so inconsistent and dont shoot 40% from the three. Farmar fell off big time.

We finally did get the right players to compliment Lebrons game and now we should have no excuses.
Yeah, it's a tragedy. :rolleyes:

philab
04-17-2009, 11:45 PM
What do you think philab?

Talent or chemsitry?

Huh?

I was getting to a response.

Obviously it's a mixture -- talent and chemistry aren't mutually exclusive. I don't really care about more talent or more chemistry -- it's whatever gets the job done. Typically both are needed to some degree.

philab
04-17-2009, 11:47 PM
Oh, and Boobie Gibson's 3PT% should not be factored in. That guy is a huge detriment to the Cavaliers whenever he's in.

tjlipford
04-17-2009, 11:48 PM
Yeah, it's a tragedy. :rolleyes:
Bynum is healthy and Gasol is a beast so yall should be cool and shannon brown has been ballin lately. Also Vujacic can get hot and start splashing

tjlipford
04-17-2009, 11:51 PM
Oh, and Boobie Gibson's 3PT% should not be factored in. That guy is a huge detriment to the Cavaliers whenever he's in.
I got to agree. I am not a fan of "Booty Gibson". He is too weak, cant dribble, cant defend, cant play the point only makes threes sometimes. All this and he is a little guy, with not a lot of speed and quickness. If he doesnt step it up BIG TIME then he will be trade bait soon.

C-Wick925
04-17-2009, 11:52 PM
The nba is a joke, its all rigged, david stern is a douche.

I dont even know why anyone watches basketball anymore i mean honestly id rather watch hockey these days.

Rigged Basketball Association! RBA 2010

tjlipford
04-18-2009, 12:00 AM
I never watched hockey a day in my life!!!!!

Rhino
04-18-2009, 12:55 AM
Like I have said many times before this NBA is not the same NBA I grew up with and I'm sure all the 35 and older folks know what I'm talking about. Any intelligent basketball fan knows this game is manipulated from the top just like the WWE. I'm sorry to break all the lil kiddies hearts but this NBA is fake plain and simple. What sucks is I love basketball and it truly hurts to watch how this sport is manipulated to generate sales accept it folks its the hard truth. It comes down to money just like almost anything else in life and its sad. You can't blame Lebron he is just the product of the system, blame the creator of this mess.

SJSHARKIES
04-18-2009, 01:03 AM
this is definitely star treatment, I'm not buying Lebron plays that clean defensively.

C-Wick925
04-18-2009, 01:28 AM
Rhino, you put it great. David stern is a money maker not a commish.

kb24ap28
04-18-2009, 01:56 AM
lol @ the second tag

IndiansFan337
04-18-2009, 02:14 AM
Kobe never got swept in the Finals unlike Lebrick

and people call Kobe/Laker fans bias and homers :rolleyes:

LeBron never lost a Finals game by 39 points.....We can make these completely irrelevant statements all day long but it doesn't prove anything. Wait & see what happens. We have HCA. So if we beat LAL, I don't want to hear that as an excuse. We earned it rightfully.

ARMIN12NBA
04-18-2009, 02:24 AM
LeBron never lost a Finals game by 39 points.....We can make these completely irrelevant statements all day long but it doesn't prove anything. Wait & see what happens. We have HCA. So if we beat LAL, I don't want to hear that as an excuse. We earned it rightfully.

If Lebron averages 25 FT per game in the Finals then I will be pissed. Although I am expecting just that so the blow won't be as hard.

IndiansFan337
04-18-2009, 02:29 AM
If Lebron averages 25 FT per game in the Finals then I will be pissed. Although I am expecting just that so the blow won't be as hard.

If Kobe drove to the hoop more he'd get the same (probably more, because he isn't as strong) calls as LeBron James.

D-Wade made a living at the FT line in the 2006 NBA Finals vs. Dallas. Granted, Donaghy was still in the league then. I believe Wade nearly averaged 20 FT's/gm for the entire series. That is astounding. I hope nobody on either team in the Finals does that this season. It's not exciting to watch.

fairandbalanced
04-18-2009, 02:31 AM
I made a tread about something similar to this months ago...........It's a crime to call foul against Lebron in Cleveland.

Raoul Duke_91
04-18-2009, 02:38 AM
seems kinda shady to me

ARMIN12NBA
04-18-2009, 02:41 AM
If Kobe drove to the hoop more he'd get the same (probably more, because he isn't as strong) calls as LeBron James.

This isn't about offensive free-throws or Kobe. The thread is about defensive fouls for LBJ.

With that being said, there is no way you can justify 25 FTA per game. Even if Lebron does drive the basketball at an insane rate.


D-Wade made a living at the FT line in the 2006 NBA Finals vs. Dallas. Granted, Donaghy was still in the league then. I believe Wade nearly averaged 20 FT's/gm for the entire series. That is astounding. I hope nobody on either team in the Finals does that this season. It's not exciting to watch.

Exactly. I'm afraid that Lebron will get the ultimate favorable treatment this playoffs. I hope it's a clean and fair battle.

Rocco007
04-18-2009, 03:21 AM
LeBron never lost a Finals game by 39 points.....We can make these completely irrelevant statements all day long but it doesn't prove anything. Wait & see what happens. We have HCA. So if we beat LAL, I don't want to hear that as an excuse. We earned it rightfully.

What makes you think you can beat LA......because of HCA? You need to come stronger than that..That alone won't win the series for the Cavs..

ARMIN12NBA
04-18-2009, 03:30 AM
My tags got changed. :pity:

Draco
04-18-2009, 03:54 AM
Were any of those 20 players SF? Bigmen play differently against eachother, its harder for bigmen to stay out of foul trouble because of all their defensive responsibilities, which is why Wilt never fouling out and playing 48 minutes a night on the regular is whats truly impossible to replicate.

I dont know why your making a big fuss about this, should we diminish Tayshaun's Defense, he had a way lower foul rate than Bron does. Spree, Dumars, Kidd in his jersey and PHX days. Some guys are so overwhelmingly big for their position that they dont have to apply much pressure just use their height as an advantage and staying down. Jason Kidd in his prime PHX/NJ days. Larry Bird had a similar foul rate but he was always on poor offensive players.

Interesting post.

Draco
04-18-2009, 03:58 AM
What's pathetic is you Laker fans will never give LeBron James credit for anything.

What do you mean? Just because the playoffs haven't started doesn't mean it's too early for Laker fans to gripe about non-issues and rationalize why their team might not be good enough to get past the Cav's.

pippsux
04-18-2009, 05:12 AM
It's his league now and we are just witness to it. Would be nice if Detroit pulled an upset, would shut a whole lot of people up.

C'mon Detroit....u can do it!

tjlipford
04-18-2009, 08:23 AM
Every star gets star treatment. Seriously all this animosity towards Lebron is funny. First of all the thread is absolutely ridiculous and there are many Lebron haters. Yall cant accept the fact that Lebron is great and hes only going to get better with time.

Wade and Lebron lead lead the league in FTA because they drive to the whole more than anyone. Kobe does not drive as much as them anymore. He also doesnt get calls like he used to either.

The fact of the matter is that the playoffs start today and we are going to take care of business.

tjlipford
04-18-2009, 08:27 AM
When the Cavs and Lakers meet in the NBA finals whoever the winner is its not going to be decided by any call the refs made keep it real. Yall sound crazy here talking about this ridiculous *******.

quade36
04-18-2009, 11:04 AM
Maybe cause he's so arrogant? That would be my guess. From the constant whining, dancing, muscle flexing, photo pictures, and condescending remarks, it is pretty easy to see why somebody wouldn't like the dude. Or maybe it's the double standards in the media?

Ha, did you just describe Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Shaq, Iverson, Artest, McGrady or Wallace?

Dude this is the NBA. Almost every superstar is arrogant, they are superstars.

I agree with what someone said before, Kobe fans have jealousy that their guy isn't the talk of the town (sorry to use that LA cliche) Its funny because they say the same thing about Lebron fans as Wade fans say about Kobe. That being said there are a TON more laker fans on this forum.

What I don't understand is all the love for single players. Look I am a Bulls fan, probably a little older than most on this forum. I was old enough to watch the Bulls years before they won their championships. During the time everyone said the same things about Jordan as they do now about Lebron and Kobe (The whole 'me' or 'I' talk) In the late 80's Jordan was a great player. His numbers, overall, exceeded even the best of Kobe's or Lebron's. Look at the stats, they don't lie. However, it wasn't until he focused on being a team player, making his teammates around him better. It wasn't until then when he became a legend. Jordan's legacy is not about being the greatest, but rather the greatest contributer to a team game. I mean, he made rockstars out of guys like Will Purdue, Steve Kerr, Cliff Levingston, Luc Longley, John Paxson. Those are names everyone knows, all fans knew their names during the Bulls run.

To be honest, besides Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and Farmer (I only know him because he lit up the Bulls in one of the games I was at this year) I couldn't tell you the name of any other player on the Lakers. I could name more players on the Rockets. And it has nothing to do with not being a big fan of basketball, because I am, or it has nothing to do with hating the Lakers, which I think they are a great team specifically because Paul Gasol (a stud) is on the team. Its just that the rest of the country doesn't hear about the Bill Wennigtons or the Steve Kerrs of the Lakers. All they hear about is Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum.

So to conclude as I expect backlash for a post that I am not trying to start controversy with (even though thats all these threads are 'wah Kobe is better than Lebron' 'wah Lebron is better than Wade' 'wah Wade is better than Kobe' but again Jordan's legacy was that he was the best team player someone could have. His stats declined as the Bulls did better as a team. So sure the Cavs and the Lakers are the two best teams now. I think that has more to do with the style of play now compared to 15 years ago. Defense, which is the topic in this thread, is something that is overlooked in basketball these days. Defense was far better 15-20 years ago than today. Maybe its the NBA's fault in general. Foul calling has become ridiculous. Anyways, commence with the opinion thread.

monster_mash
04-18-2009, 04:49 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/chris_ballard/01/27/lebron.james/

Last summer Idan Ravin, a Washington, D.C.-based trainer whose clients include New Orleans Hornets point guard Chris Paul and Denver Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony, worked out James and was struck by how quickly he covered ground. "Most players can go full speed from baseline to baseline in somewhere between 11 and 14 strides," says Ravin. "LeBron covers that in nine or 10."

This is especially valuable on defense. Draw a circle of, say, six feet around most players and this is how much space they can patrol -- call it their defensive radius. For James, that circle can become almost twice as big. "He can be all the way in the lane on that skip pass and still close out [on a shooter on the wing]," says Cavs assistant Mike Malone, the team's defensive coordinator. "And it's not a six-foot guy like me closing out, it's 'Holy crap, this is a big guy coming at you.' "

Yea...Im sure part of it is the refs giving some leeway to LBJ. But Kobe gets it too. As do most superstars. But let's just not forget that there really hasn't been an NBA player who stands 6 feet 9 inches tall, weighs 260 pounds at 5% body fat, runs a 4.4 40yrd dash, and also has a 44 inch vert. The man has physical gifts and skills we've never seen..only makes sense he is gonna do some things you have never seen. Be fair. And be happy that most of us have been alive long enough to see and remember players like MJ and Kobe and LBJ. Halftime is over..gonna go watch the pistons get smacked some more.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2009, 05:41 PM
Ha, did you just describe Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Shaq, Iverson, Artest, McGrady or Wallace?

Dude this is the NBA. Almost every superstar is arrogant, they are superstars.

I agree with what someone said before, Kobe fans have jealousy that their guy isn't the talk of the town (sorry to use that LA cliche) Its funny because they say the same thing about Lebron fans as Wade fans say about Kobe. That being said there are a TON more laker fans on this forum.

What I don't understand is all the love for single players. Look I am a Bulls fan, probably a little older than most on this forum. I was old enough to watch the Bulls years before they won their championships. During the time everyone said the same things about Jordan as they do now about Lebron and Kobe (The whole 'me' or 'I' talk) In the late 80's Jordan was a great player. His numbers, overall, exceeded even the best of Kobe's or Lebron's. Look at the stats, they don't lie. However, it wasn't until he focused on being a team player, making his teammates around him better. It wasn't until then when he became a legend. Jordan's legacy is not about being the greatest, but rather the greatest contributer to a team game. I mean, he made rockstars out of guys like Will Purdue, Steve Kerr, Cliff Levingston, Luc Longley, John Paxson. Those are names everyone knows, all fans knew their names during the Bulls run.

To be honest, besides Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and Farmer (I only know him because he lit up the Bulls in one of the games I was at this year) I couldn't tell you the name of any other player on the Lakers. I could name more players on the Rockets. And it has nothing to do with not being a big fan of basketball, because I am, or it has nothing to do with hating the Lakers, which I think they are a great team specifically because Paul Gasol (a stud) is on the team. Its just that the rest of the country doesn't hear about the Bill Wennigtons or the Steve Kerrs of the Lakers. All they hear about is Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum.

So to conclude as I expect backlash for a post that I am not trying to start controversy with (even though thats all these threads are 'wah Kobe is better than Lebron' 'wah Lebron is better than Wade' 'wah Wade is better than Kobe' but again Jordan's legacy was that he was the best team player someone could have. His stats declined as the Bulls did better as a team. So sure the Cavs and the Lakers are the two best teams now. I think that has more to do with the style of play now compared to 15 years ago. Defense, which is the topic in this thread, is something that is overlooked in basketball these days. Defense was far better 15-20 years ago than today. Maybe its the NBA's fault in general. Foul calling has become ridiculous. Anyways, commence with the opinion thread.

this makes too much sense for Laker fans to agree with. Their hero has been knocked off the perch (that was me that said it by the way, truth hurts), so they are acting like a jealous ex girlfriend. Now, a few of them, like Chronz, StillBallin, JJ81, and a handful of others can be reasonable. But most are childish

SMS07
04-18-2009, 06:13 PM
HAHAH armin! you're the best when it comes to getting under someones skin! lOL!

Hey man, good luck tomorrow with your team. I really think the heat will beat the hawks. Especially since we all know dwayne wade isn't a human being. I say you guys will beat the hawks in 6, but if it goes to 7, then I think ATL will beat you guys. :clap:

ARMIN12NBA
04-18-2009, 06:19 PM
Hey man, good luck tomorrow with your team. I really think the heat will beat the hawks. Especially since we all know dwayne wade isn't a human being. I say you guys will beat the hawks in 6, but if it goes to 7, then I think ATL will beat you guys. :clap:

:confused: Still1ballin is a Lakers fan...

Jaji
04-18-2009, 06:47 PM
:cry:

Jahari Kavi
04-18-2009, 06:48 PM
lol @ kobe fans hating someone, because of their arrogance. Some of our posters on this board sound like school children........

Fool
04-18-2009, 06:52 PM
Waa waa waa LeBron is the MVP this year and not Kobe or D-Wade. Waa waa LeBron has become the best player in the league. Instead of hating on the man, watch him play. Players like this do not come along often at all, and its likely you won't see someone else like this for many many years. Stop hating on the man because he is the best. Get over it. This is a Laker fan/ LeBron bashing thread basically. Last I checked both teams are the favorites to make the NBA Finals, so sit back, watch the playoffs, and stop complaining Laker fans.

No, what is unbelievable is that if anyone says ANYTHING bad about LeBron its because they're haters. What's unbelievable is the amount of people that are blinded whenever LeBron plays. Of course you could argue that Kobe and D-Wade get all the calls too, because they probably do. The good teams in general get the calls...specifically the Celtics, Cavs, and yes...the Lakers. I understand that, and there is nothing that I can do about it. The fact that LeBron seems to go unchallenged doesn't even bug me as much as the fact that people like you take it personally and completely EXPLODE whenever there is any amount of criticism against "King" James. We could never actually have a valid argument. We're always sore losers, and we're always hating. And notice, these aren't just Laker fans in this thread. I've seen Celtics fans in here too. This is literally one of the only topics that Lakers and Celtics fans may agree upon. I've seen supporters of a lot of fans in this thread, not just the Lakers. You are finding excuses to hate on Laker fans, nothing else.

Jahari Kavi
04-18-2009, 06:52 PM
Like I have said many times before this NBA is not the same NBA I grew up with and I'm sure all the 35 and older folks know what I'm talking about. Any intelligent basketball fan knows this game is manipulated from the top just like the WWE. I'm sorry to break all the lil kiddies hearts but this NBA is fake plain and simple. What sucks is I love basketball and it truly hurts to watch how this sport is manipulated to generate sales accept it folks its the hard truth. It comes down to money just like almost anything else in life and its sad. You can't blame Lebron he is just the product of the system, blame the creator of this mess.

I'm sorry, but this is just insane. People who say things like this sound bitter. Superstars have ALWAYS gotten away with crap. Wilt got away with crap, Bird got away with crap (a reason why my father hates his guts to this day), Jordan got away with murder........I could go on and on and on for days and days and days...........

ARMIN12NBA
04-18-2009, 07:10 PM
lol @ kobe fans hating someone, because of their arrogance. Some of our posters on this board sound like school children........

Did you see Lebron pick himself as his favorite athlete growing up? Bryant did the same exact interview and did not mention himself. Enough said. I mean, the fact that he would even think of putting himself speaks of his insane narcissism.

DreamShaker
04-18-2009, 07:14 PM
Greg Oden must be the best defender in the league.

Lol. Didn't Wilt NEVER FOUL OUT OF A GAME?

philab
04-18-2009, 07:34 PM
Lol. Didn't Wilt NEVER FOUL OUT OF A GAME?

To top that off, Wilt played virtually every minute of every game in many seasons. In fact, in his legendary 1961-62 season, Wilt averaged more than 48 minutes per game.

still1ballin
04-18-2009, 07:36 PM
Hey man, good luck tomorrow with your team. I really think the heat will beat the hawks. Especially since we all know dwayne wade isn't a human being. I say you guys will beat the hawks in 6, but if it goes to 7, then I think ATL will beat you guys. :clap:

Do you see my sig? It has Lakers all over it, not Hawks

Brooke
04-18-2009, 07:37 PM
Did you see Lebron pick himself as his favorite athlete growing up? Bryant did the same exact interview and did not mention himself. Enough said. I mean, the fact that he would even think of putting himself speaks of his insane narcissism.

That didnt help matters, there is a difference between being confident and being arrogant


No, what is unbelievable is that if anyone says ANYTHING bad about LeBron its because they're haters. What's unbelievable is the amount of people that are blinded whenever LeBron plays. Of course you could argue that Kobe and D-Wade get all the calls too, because they probably do. The good teams in general get the calls...specifically the Celtics, Cavs, and yes...the Lakers. I understand that, and there is nothing that I can do about it. The fact that LeBron seems to go unchallenged doesn't even bug me as much as the fact that people like you take it personally and completely EXPLODE whenever there is any amount of criticism against "King" James. We could never actually have a valid argument. We're always sore losers, and we're always hating. And notice, these aren't just Laker fans in this thread. I've seen Celtics fans in here too. This is literally one of the only topics that Lakers and Celtics fans may agree upon. I've seen supporters of a lot of fans in this thread, not just the Lakers. You are finding excuses to hate on Laker fans, nothing else.

Exactly :clap:

still1ballin
04-18-2009, 07:37 PM
Did you see Lebron pick himself as his favorite athlete growing up? Bryant did the same exact interview and did not mention himself. Enough said. I mean, the fact that he would even think of putting himself speaks of his insane narcissism.

I did see that....Joking or no joking that was just plain dumb of him to do that.

quade36
04-19-2009, 12:21 AM
Wow, seriously people. Is there no reasoning? No Logic? Really? Its just wah my guy is better than yours???? Wow....

ARMIN12NBA
04-19-2009, 12:37 AM
Wow, seriously people. Is there no reasoning? No Logic? Really? Its just wah my guy is better than yours???? Wow....

Who has been saying that? Most people have come in complaining that LBJ is too good so there shouldn't be any criticism against him. Myself, along with others, have been trying to get people to actually respond to the thread.

ink
04-19-2009, 02:06 AM
This thread is a waste of time guys. I'm closing it rather than cleaning it up. Be warned though, we will ban posters who argue and fight during the playoffs. Please don't push it to that point. Thanks.