PDA

View Full Version : Why is Deron Williams widely regarded as the 2nd best PG in the game?



Chronz
04-07-2009, 03:55 AM
I hear it everywhere all the time, the non stop comparisons on SC and NBATV yet cant seem to understand what hes done to merit that distinction when we have a 3-time champ entering the prime of his career, a former Finals MVP whos finally getting the recognition hes deserved for years. Nash has fallen off but hes not far off either.

GoatMilk
04-07-2009, 04:05 AM
I love DWill, I think he's better than CP, but CP's still better
(lmao that makes no sense at all, but it does in my head :p)

TP has improved though which is amazing. he's def. underrated

New York Minute
04-07-2009, 04:08 AM
I hear it everywhere all the time, the non stop comparisons on SC and NBATV yet cant seem to understand what hes done to merit that distinction when we have a 3-time champ entering the prime of his career, a former Finals MVP whos finally getting the recognition hes deserved for years. Nash has fallen off but hes not far off either.

without Deron im sure the Jazz would be a piece of crap team

without Tony Parker, you still got 2 time MVP Tim Duncan

JayW_1023
04-07-2009, 05:01 AM
I think Parker is just as good as Williams..this season Tony has actually played better than Williams If you ask me.

That's no knock on Williams, since he is one of my favorite players. But Parker has carried a heavier load this season and has absolutely dominated for stretches. He has been the one constant in an injury-laden season for San Antonio.

Parker has shown his ability as distributer is vastly underrated...and from floor to floor no one can shift gears like him. And no one can finish better in traffic.

I sure hope The Spurs won't waste Parkers prime...because we sorely need some fresh talent to build around him. It's time TP becomes our go to guy and Duncan to take a step back.

codes238
04-07-2009, 05:02 AM
because he IS the 2nd best PG in the league... TP is still underrated and i agree that he's a close 3rd but dwill is simply better... i love steve nash, but he's just not in the same league as those 3 guys anymore...

JayW_1023
04-07-2009, 05:13 AM
because he IS the 2nd best PG in the league... TP is still underrated and i agree that he's a close 3rd but dwill is simply better... i love steve nash, but he's just not in the same league as those 3 guys anymore...

I wish you would elaborate on 'simply better'.

Deron is a great player...but Parker has been dominant for stretches this season.

Deron is stronger and has more range. Parker is faster and a better finisher. Ballhandling and defense they are about equal. Parker has shown he can be a formibale distributer this season.

Parker also has a Finals MVP and has proven more down the stretch. In 2007 he completely destroyed Williams in their postseason matchup.

NYstateofMinD
04-07-2009, 08:37 AM
I think Parker is just as good as Williams..this season Tony has actually played better than Williams If you ask me.

That's no knock on Williams, since he is one of my favorite players. But Parker has carried a heavier load this season and has absolutely dominated for stretches. He has been the one constant in an injury-laden season for San Antonio.

Parker has shown his ability as distributer is vastly underrated...and from floor to floor no one can shift gears like him. And no one can finish better in traffic.

I sure hope The Spurs won't waste Parkers prime...because we sorely need some fresh talent to build around him. It's time TP becomes our go to guy and Duncan to take a step back.

So with the injuries the Jazz faced this season, including Deron himself, you don't think he had to carry anyone? TP is great but he's the 3rd best PG. Like someone said you take TP off the Spurs you have Manu a Worldwide icon in his own right, and TD one of the top 15 players of all time. You take Deron Williams off the Jazz and they fail to make the playoffs as it was proven.

JayW_1023
04-07-2009, 08:47 AM
So with the injuries the Jazz faced this season, including Deron himself, you don't think he had to carry anyone? TP is great but he's the 3rd best PG. Like someone said you take TP off the Spurs you have Manu a Worldwide icon in his own right, and TD one of the top 15 players of all time. You take Deron Williams off the Jazz and they fail to make the playoffs as it was proven.

Manu has barely played this season...and Duncan hasn't been his consistent self...meanwhile Deron has had alot more talent around him even without Boozer...Okur, Millsap, Kirilenko are all borderline all-star players when they want to be. If you have Brewer, Korver and Knight as failsafe roleplayers, your team is crazy deep.

Who do we have: Mason, Gooden (for only a month), Finley, Bowen...uhmm...Hill, Bonner, Udoka, Thomas and Oberto...all limited players. The Spurs have way less firepower than the Jazz. Don't kid yourself. Parker had to dig down deep several times scoring and dishing like crazy just to keep the Spurs in it, let alone beating teams shorthanded.

kingofkings313
04-07-2009, 09:20 AM
Tony Parker is good...No doubt a top 5 PG! But he is nowhere near CP3 and D Will! CP3 is the best point guard in the game! He has a team full of role players and he averages 20 pts and 10 ast. a game! CP3 turned David West into an all star, without CP3 I didn't even know who the hell David West was! Peja hasn't been good since he was the man in Sacramento when C Webb was hurt! Mo Pete has always been a role player! And Tyson Chandler was a bust until CP3 showed up! CP3 great PG play has given these guys a name and some type of recognition! D Will showed this year he is close to CP3! He was injured came back and without Boozer he took over that Jazz team and they are now in playoff contention! Without Boozer who is left on that team? Milsap is ok, Kirilinko hasn't been good since he signed that big expensive contract, Korver hasn't done nothing, Brewer isn't a threat and yet D Will still averages 10 ast and has his team winning! TP is good but he is not a true PG! He can give you 20 and he puts his body on the line! But he has the same team that has won 3 titles! He has the best PF to play the game in Duncan and Ginobili is one of the best SG today! You take away TP and this Spurs team can still win a title! You take D will and CP3 from there teams and they couldn't even spell Playoffs! If you were starting a team and PG was your 1st priority! You want a true PG that will take command of the floor and get his team involved! TP is not that type of PG! He is a slashing SG in a PG's body! Don't get me wrong TP is a great player but put him on any team, he can't turn them around like D Will and CP3! Nash is still good but his team has too many scorers and too many selfish players! How can you not lead the league in assist with a team that can throw up 140 in a flash! Age has caught up to Nash! But Nash is still a true PG and he still has enough to get everyone involved!
Top 5 PG's
1.CP3
2.D Will
3.Billups
4.TP
5.Nash
Yes Billups over TP and Nash! This year Billups has taken a Denver team that I thought wouldn't make the playoffs and has them as the 2nd best team in the West! He has embarrassed Iverson showing that he can lead Iverson's own team to a possible NBA Title!

Fans in Asia
04-07-2009, 09:41 AM
40+pts performance by TP are amazing. But I just don't think we should directly compare TP with D Will. D Will is a pass-first-score-second player. He will only score if he has to.

Hypothetically if he is in TP's shoes without TD and Manu, I am sure D Will can have multiple 40+points game, too.

lunatik487
04-07-2009, 10:29 AM
I'm going to say it right now. D-Will is the best PG in the league. If you see this man play, you see a 1-guard who doesn't have to blow you away with his stats or his flash to be a game-changer. D-Will has the athleticism, passing skill, and vision that CP3 has, with a bigger body, a SIGNIFICANTLY better jump shot and a more efficient crossover. D-Will can play off the ball too, whereas CP3 needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

DrDEADalready
04-07-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm going to say it right now. D-Will is the best PG in the league. If you see this man play, you see a 1-guard who doesn't have to blow you away with his stats or his flash to be a game-changer. D-Will has the athleticism, passing skill, and vision that CP3 has, with a bigger body, a SIGNIFICANTLY better jump shot and a more efficient crossover. D-Will can play off the ball too, whereas CP3 needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

my new friend on PSD. :clap: Well said.

D-Leethal
04-07-2009, 10:36 AM
Parker is more of a scoring guard which is a great compliment to TD and Manu, put him on a team where he needs to make everyone else involved and you might see his flaws

Lo Porto
04-07-2009, 10:52 AM
CP3 is slightly ahead of TP and Deron. Deron is a more complete player than TP so that's why I give him the edge. He scores as much but gets so many more assists. Now if TP leads San Antonio to the West Finals, then I'll give him 2nd place. If Deron leads his team past Denver 1st round and TP gets outed prior to West Finals, then it's Deron.

agnine
04-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Parker, while being one of the best guards in the league, hasn't really been a pass first pg. His game for most of his career has been like (don't kill me) Billups, Marbury or Iverson. Decent assist stats, but not really a setup man, like Kidd or Nash.

imho, I think Deron is the best pg in the game.

Unruly Fan
04-07-2009, 11:27 AM
I'm going to say it right now. D-Will is the best PG in the league. If you see this man play, you see a 1-guard who doesn't have to blow you away with his stats or his flash to be a game-changer. D-Will has the athleticism, passing skill, and vision that CP3 has, with a bigger body, a SIGNIFICANTLY better jump shot and a more efficient crossover. D-Will can play off the ball too, whereas CP3 needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

I too am I huge DWill fan, but the fact remains that Chris Paul IS the best PG in the NBA right now. Stats don't lie... CP3 beats all top tier PGs in categories relevant to the 1 spot including points, assists, steals and rebounds (excluding Kidd).

VCaintdead17
04-07-2009, 11:45 AM
Deron Williams leadership at such a young age has been incredible. He has led them deep into the playoffs, with some help, but you really can't compare Boozer and Kirlenko to Manu and Duncan. And like someone said earlier, he does not need the stats to be an efficient player. I think he is the best point guard in the league due to his passing ability, but he can also be the teams leading scorer if needed. His athleticism and size pushes him slightly ahead of CP3 IMO.

skny_txn
04-07-2009, 11:48 AM
Why is Deron Williams widely regarded as the 2nd best PG in the game? Personally I think it comes down to his hair. Dude has got to do something with the do. =)

DrDEADalready
04-07-2009, 11:50 AM
what's up with his do? what you mean.

skny_txn
04-07-2009, 12:02 PM
what's up with his do? what you mean.

Well I was just havin fun. Who cares about the hair. You're right...it has nothing to do with the do....it's because he plays for Utah plain and simple. If he played for LA or NY or Mia he would be right there in the mix.

JayW_1023
04-07-2009, 12:09 PM
I think alot of you underestimate Parkers ability as a pass first point guard.

skny_txn
04-07-2009, 12:13 PM
I think alot of you underestimate Parkers ability as a pass first point guard.

Agreed...If I could hand pick a point guard for my team I'd have to say Parker would be my #1 choice right now.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Parker has shined in the biggest stage, no doubt. But with Duncan and Manu there, he hasn't had to carry his team like Deron or Paul especially. I would say though, that Parker and Williams are even basically, both looking up at Paul. Nash's defense knocks him out of the category.

JayW_1023
04-07-2009, 12:21 PM
TP is good but he is not a true PG! He can give you 20 and he puts his body on the line! But he has the same team that has won 3 titles! He has the best PF to play the game in Duncan and Ginobili is one of the best SG today! You take away TP and this Spurs team can still win a title! You take D will and CP3 from there teams and they couldn't even spell Playoffs! If you were starting a team and PG was your 1st priority! You want a true PG that will take command of the floor and get his team involved! TP is not that type of PG! He is a slashing SG in a PG's body! Don't get me wrong TP is a great player but put him on any team, he can't turn them around like D Will and CP3!
!

I disagree, the big three hasn't been completely healthy all season (Manu barely even played this season), and them aside the Spurs' supporting cast isn't half as talented, deep or versatile as the Jazz. Parkers significant improvement is the reason why the Spurs are still a playoff team this season...he has been their most consistent player. In the games where Duncan was out Parker has actually had to distribute the ball alot more, and he has done an excellent job. He has taken excellent care of the ball and finding people off dribble penetration.

The Jazz have Millsap, Harpring and Kirilenko as BACK-UPS ferrchrissakes. As much as I love Derons game and toughness, Parker has been way more impressive this season. But the times that he was no one really paid any attention so I can't blame the majority of people overlooking him. Tony Parker isn't just a scoring point guard anymore...his all-round game is finally shown at full glory this season. The Spurs just are an offensively challenged team for some time now so Parker has to score alot. But he has done an equally great job looking for his teammates.

Without a doubt Tony Parker has had to carry the Spurs this year.

nycericanguy
04-07-2009, 12:33 PM
because he IS the 2nd best PG in the league... TP is still underrated and i agree that he's a close 3rd but dwill is simply better... i love steve nash, but he's just not in the same league as those 3 guys anymore...

Parker is a great scorer but not in the same league as , CP, Deron, or even Nash. Nash is still putting up great numbers.

Luffy
04-07-2009, 12:46 PM
Deron Williams leadership at such a young age has been incredible. He has led them deep into the playoffs, with some help, but you really can't compare Boozer and Kirlenko to Manu and Duncan. And like someone said earlier, he does not need the stats to be an efficient player. I think he is the best point guard in the league due to his passing ability, but he can also be the teams leading scorer if needed. His athleticism and size pushes him slightly ahead of CP3 IMO.

Your statement about Deron being the best PG in the leauge due to his passing ability and his ability to be the leading scorer if needed fits CP3 more than DWill. CP3 is beating Deron in every categories (PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, FG% and FT%). And Giving DWill the edge over CP3 due to his athleticism and size? Both of these players are athletic and size doesn't have to do with how you play the PG. If he was better due to his size, than size is a good argument to use. For example, Lebron uses his size to destroy players when he takes it to the hole. CP3, a smaller size player is playing better ball than Deron so size doesn't have anything to do with it.

Anyone here saying Deron is better right now is being bias. Does he have the potential to be better than CP3? Maybe, only time will tell. But as of now, CP3 is hands down the best point guard in the league.

hades
04-07-2009, 12:48 PM
because chris paul is regarded as the first.

what54!?
04-07-2009, 12:51 PM
because tony parker is underated. But so is D-will. I don't see how he hasn't been to an all-star game yet.

lunatik487
04-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Your statement about Deron being the best PG in the leauge due to his passing ability and his ability to be the leading scorer if needed fits CP3 more than DWill. CP3 is beating Deron in every categories (PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, FG% and FT%). And Giving DWill the edge over CP3 due to his athleticism and size? Both of these players are athletic and size doesn't have to do with how you play the PG. If he was better due to his size, than size is a good argument to use. For example, Lebron uses his size to destroy players when he takes it to the hole. CP3, a smaller size player is playing better ball than Deron so size doesn't have anything to do with it.

Anyone here saying Deron is better right now is being bias. Does he have the potential to be better than CP3? Maybe, only time will tell. But as of now, CP3 is hands down the best point guard in the league.
Your points are all valid, however moot considering their two circumstances. Whereas CP3 has ONLY West and Chandler to rely on for defense, rebounding and post presence, D-Will has a good four role-players (Okur, Boozer, Milsap and Koufos) behind him for rebounds. That frees him up to start the break or set up the offense. Paul HAS to get rebounds and steals for his squad, or else they'll be sitting ducks. Also, Williams has been hit with the injury bug this season, and is getting into stride. In fact, since January (and you can check me on these) D-Will has averaged more assists than Paul, and since February, he's averaged more points. Statistics matter only in the frame of reference you look at them, my dude. Finally, size has a great deal to do with being a good PG. Have you ever noticed that the only time CP3 is in the paint is when he's driving, dishing off the drive or pulling up? That's because he knows that an extended stay anywhere within 12 feet will have his shot batted back at him. D-Will's frame makes him ideal for any situation, including (*salivation*) posting up. D-Will has a much more diverse offensive game than CP3, regardless of stats. I'd rather have a PG who's good at everything, rather than one who's really, really good at less things.

jrodmesche
04-07-2009, 01:29 PM
gilbert arenas,mo williams, and devin harris are all better than tony parker

Hawkeye15
04-07-2009, 01:37 PM
gilbert arenas,mo williams, and devin harris are all better than tony parker

hahaha, that is hilarious

VCaintdead17
04-07-2009, 01:37 PM
gilbert arenas,mo williams, and devin harris are all better than tony parker

Mo Williams is NOT better than TP.

Carpdog
04-07-2009, 01:45 PM
Maybe its the 19 points and 10.6 assists per game? He is the second best. Nash is great, but if I was building a team he is right outside the top 5 point guards I would take.

1. Chris Paul
2. Deron Williams
3. Derrick Rose
4. Steve Nash
5. Devin Harris
6. Tony Parker

Brooke
04-07-2009, 01:47 PM
gilbert arenas,mo williams, and devin harris are all better than tony parker

I dont think they are

Chris Paul and Deron Williams are 1, and 2 but I do think Tony Parker is the #3 PG he does gets underrrated a little

what54!?
04-07-2009, 01:49 PM
gilbert arenas,mo williams, and devin harris are all better than tony parker
don't mind him he's just a spurs (Tim Duncan) hater

que
04-07-2009, 02:02 PM
Deron Williams is the best point guard in the league. The only thing Chris Paul is better at is steals. Deron is only behind in assists by .4 11 to 10.6. And Deron owns Chris Paul in head to head matchups. Deron is much bigger than CP3, he can post him up. And in the game on sunday Deron was taking him off the dribble and got CP3 in foul trouble.
Deron can score when he wants to. He had 3 games in a row where had over 30 points. Jazz has been hit hard this year with injuries and Deron and still gets the job done. I can't believe he has not been an all-star yet. Billips going over him this year when Billips hadn't even been in the west that long was a joke.

ProdigyI
04-07-2009, 02:04 PM
Because they have to give the 2nd best PG title to somebody before Rose takes that title next year:)

what54!?
04-07-2009, 02:06 PM
Because they have to give the 2nd best PG title to somebody before Rose takes that title in a couple of years:)fixed

ewing
04-07-2009, 02:15 PM
I wish you would elaborate on 'simply better'.

Deron is a great player...but Parker has been dominant for stretches this season.

Deron is stronger and has more range. Parker is faster and a better finisher. Ballhandling and defense they are about equal. Parker has shown he can be a formibale distributer this season.

Parker also has a Finals MVP and has proven more down the stretch. In 2007 he completely destroyed Williams in their postseason matchup.


Really?? Cause I remember Williams being unreal that entire post-season. I remember it clearly enough that I looked it up and in the Spurs series he shot 50% from the feild and posted the following numbers:

Game 1 34 pts 9 assists
game 2 26 pts 10 assists
game 3 31 pts 8 assists
game 4 27 pts 10 assists
game 5 11 pts 2 assist (SA won this game in a blowout and Sloan yanked everyone very earily- Williams only played alittle over 20 mins).


-The Spurs took care of the Jazz b/c they were the better team and Tony put up some nice numbers himself but saying he destroyed williams is total horsecrap

dolfan720
04-07-2009, 02:48 PM
devin harris should be up there too!

dolfan720
04-07-2009, 02:49 PM
hahaha, that is hilarious

But its true they are all better than parker!:D

CityofTreez
04-07-2009, 03:07 PM
1). Thought CP3 was drafted before him?
2). D-Willz does the grunt work (posting up & out muscling the other PG's)
3) CP3 has proved to be a stealing machine-then turning those turnovers into converted points.
4) Also, CP3 is on Team Jordan, that factor is useless, but it garners some national attention
5) Utah Jazz-small market team

Funny because D-Willz has proved to be a better playoff player, if you look at win/loss record.

GREATNESS ONE
04-07-2009, 03:13 PM
I love DWill, I think he's better than CP, but CP's still better
(lmao that makes no sense at all, but it does in my head :p)

TP has improved though which is amazing. he's def. underrated

Makes sense in my head to, Dwill outplay's CP3 heads up but CP3 is damn good against the rest of the league more so than Dwill.

kEviN21
04-07-2009, 03:22 PM
I like how the thread pinpoints Nash vs Dwill and everyone talks about Dwill vs TP lol.


1. CP3 - CP3 is CP3
2. DW - Can't be #1 if CP3 is there lol
3. TP - Inconsistent
4. Nash - Defensive liability

JordansBulls
04-07-2009, 03:27 PM
Tony Parker is good...No doubt a top 5 PG! But he is nowhere near CP3 and D Will! CP3 is the best point guard in the game! He has a team full of role players and he averages 20 pts and 10 ast. a game! CP3 turned David West into an all star, without CP3 I didn't even know who the hell David West was! Peja hasn't been good since he was the man in Sacramento when C Webb was hurt! Mo Pete has always been a role player! And Tyson Chandler was a bust until CP3 showed up! CP3 great PG play has given these guys a name and some type of recognition! D Will showed this year he is close to CP3! He was injured came back and without Boozer he took over that Jazz team and they are now in playoff contention! Without Boozer who is left on that team? Milsap is ok, Kirilinko hasn't been good since he signed that big expensive contract, Korver hasn't done nothing, Brewer isn't a threat and yet D Will still averages 10 ast and has his team winning! TP is good but he is not a true PG! He can give you 20 and he puts his body on the line! But he has the same team that has won 3 titles! He has the best PF to play the game in Duncan and Ginobili is one of the best SG today! You take away TP and this Spurs team can still win a title! You take D will and CP3 from there teams and they couldn't even spell Playoffs! If you were starting a team and PG was your 1st priority! You want a true PG that will take command of the floor and get his team involved! TP is not that type of PG! He is a slashing SG in a PG's body! Don't get me wrong TP is a great player but put him on any team, he can't turn them around like D Will and CP3! Nash is still good but his team has too many scorers and too many selfish players! How can you not lead the league in assist with a team that can throw up 140 in a flash! Age has caught up to Nash! But Nash is still a true PG and he still has enough to get everyone involved!
Top 5 PG's
1.CP3
2.D Will
3.Billups
4.TP
5.Nash
Yes Billups over TP and Nash! This year Billups has taken a Denver team that I thought wouldn't make the playoffs and has them as the 2nd best team in the West! He has embarrassed Iverson showing that he can lead Iverson's own team to a possible NBA Title!


Because they were rivals in college and really who at this point could be considered better?

ragee
04-07-2009, 03:27 PM
Because he is... CP3 is the best pg right now but its close... Deron has carried the Jazz to where they are right now... He is a great defender and playmaker who can score when he needs to...

SMS07
04-07-2009, 03:35 PM
I hear it everywhere all the time, the non stop comparisons on SC and NBATV yet cant seem to understand what hes done to merit that distinction when we have a 3-time champ entering the prime of his career, a former Finals MVP whos finally getting the recognition hes deserved for years. Nash has fallen off but hes not far off either.

A lot of ppl think williams is the best pg in the nba. I am one of those ppl, but yet, I still think paul is the best. Makes no sense. It's really hard to pick one of the two, but i think overall, dwill is the best in the entire league

ragee
04-07-2009, 03:41 PM
Manu has barely played this season...and Duncan hasn't been his consistent self...meanwhile Deron has had alot more talent around him even without Boozer...Okur, Millsap, Kirilenko are all borderline all-star players when they want to be. If you have Brewer, Korver and Knight as failsafe roleplayers, your team is crazy deep.

Who do we have: Mason, Gooden (for only a month), Finley, Bowen...uhmm...Hill, Bonner, Udoka, Thomas and Oberto...all limited players. The Spurs have way less firepower than the Jazz. Don't kid yourself. Parker had to dig down deep several times scoring and dishing like crazy just to keep the Spurs in it, let alone beating teams shorthanded.

What? Mason and Bonner is a great addition to your team... They are one of the best 3 pointers in the league... Mason can also score big time in the clutch... He saved your *** a couple of times already... Finley and Bowen are still great, Hill is a great backup pg, Thomas is a great role player... Jazz's players just look better because D-Will makes them look better...

You ae nagging about Ginobili's injury? Well, AK47 and Boozer has been out a lot too... I believe Boozer have played lesser games than Manu... You think Duncan in not consistent? Dude, watch Boozer, Milsap, Okur and AK47! Now those players are inconsistent! Having Duncan in your team is a lot of help to TP... Take him out and your team will suck...

madiaz3
04-07-2009, 03:44 PM
I wish you would elaborate on 'simply better'.

Deron is a great player...but Parker has been dominant for stretches this season.

Deron is stronger and has more range. Parker is faster and a better finisher. Ballhandling and defense they are about equal. Parker has shown he can be a formibale distributer this season.

Parker also has a Finals MVP and has proven more down the stretch. In 2007 he completely destroyed Williams in their postseason matchup.

Deron Williams vs Spurs 06-07 Playoffs (Pts/As/Reb)
GM1 34/9/7
GM2 26/10
GM3 31/8
GM4 27/10
GM5 11/2 (But he only played ~20 minutes.)

Parker was outscored and assisted by a pretty good amount every game but game 5.

ddaughtry
04-07-2009, 04:02 PM
I don't know why. Maybe he should be regarded as the best. He ***** on Chris Paul everytime they play head to head. When it comes to Williams, Paul, and Parker, it is all about what you want in your PG.

Williams- big, pass-first, can dominate offensively if needed
Paul- pass-first, can dominate offensively if needed, active on defense
Parker- shoot-first, unguardable when going to the rim, most points are in the paint

Carpdog
04-07-2009, 04:07 PM
Chauncey Billups doesn't even make this list??? Your opinion will never be took serious....Because it's mediocre.

Lets look at my list smart guy. Who on my list would I replace Billups with? If I were a fan of the Hornets, Jazz, Bulls, Suns or Spurs I would not trade my pg with Billups. Not to say he is not a great player, or maybe even sixth on the list.

The only person I could see bumping on my list is Derrick Rose because his body of work is so short, but my opinion is, and always will be, based on the big picture. There is nothing mediocre about that. If I am a team in need of a point guard there is only two guys I would want before DRose and that Paul or Williams.

Chronz
04-07-2009, 04:33 PM
Im seeing alot of pass first statements about putting Parker on the Jazz, well what if we put Deron on the Spurs. Would we see some of his flaws as a scorer, hes already carrying less of a load and isnt overwhelmingly efficient in the process, could he continuously penetrate and find the high% look every time, rather than sit back and letting the play develop. Both of their teams know the strengths of their PG's, they arent going to build around them otherwise. Deron is a perfect fit for the Jazz's offense and TP is for the Spurs. Besides his playmaking is much improved, hes cut his turnover rate by leaps and bounds and his Pure.Point.Rating has never been higher.


without Deron im sure the Jazz would be a piece of crap team

without Tony Parker, you still got 2 time MVP Tim Duncan
I dont see how that makes Deron better, even if it were true. The Jazz did just fine without Deron early in the year, they still got 4 other all-star caliber players who raise their game when hes not in there. AK-47 has proven capable of taking on the playmaking duties. Id argue that Deron has more talent around him.



So with the injuries the Jazz faced this season, including Deron himself, you don't think he had to carry anyone? TP is great but he's the 3rd best PG. Like someone said you take TP off the Spurs you have Manu a Worldwide icon in his own right, and TD one of the top 15 players of all time. You take Deron Williams off the Jazz and they fail to make the playoffs as it was proven.
Theyve both have had to shoulder more of the offensive load this year, TP has just had to carry more of it on his own. (Hes had 2 games where when on the floor hes accounted for more PTS by himself against the opposing team). Having Duncan on the floor doesnt change those responsibilities.



Really?? Cause I remember Williams being unreal that entire post-season. I remember it clearly enough that I looked it up and in the Spurs series he shot 50% from the feild and posted the following numbers:

Game 1 34 pts 9 assists
game 2 26 pts 10 assists
game 3 31 pts 8 assists
game 4 27 pts 10 assists
game 5 11 pts 2 assist (SA won this game in a blowout and Sloan yanked everyone very earily- Williams only played alittle over 20 mins).


-The Spurs took care of the Jazz b/c they were the better team and Tony put up some nice numbers himself but saying he destroyed williams is total horsecrap

Good find, Deron is a beast in the playoffs, probably better than TP was at the same age. But right now I think hes the superior player.

Chronz
04-07-2009, 04:41 PM
A lot of ppl think williams is the best pg in the nba. I am one of those ppl, but yet, I still think paul is the best. Makes no sense. It's really hard to pick one of the two, but i think overall, dwill is the best in the entire league
Completely disagree, right now CP3 is so much better than everyone else that there is no comparison to him aside from All-Time legends.

Chronz
04-07-2009, 04:53 PM
Maybe its the 19 points and 10.6 assists per game? He is the second best. Nash is great, but if I was building a team he is right outside the top 5 point guards I would take.

1. Chris Paul
2. Deron Williams
3. Derrick Rose
4. Steve Nash
5. Devin Harris
6. Tony Parker
If thats the extent of your statistical analysis then Im beginning to understand why Spurs fans hate stats. Their players are always underrated by the conventional methods due to their slow pace, and efficiency. Dig deeper and you'll find TP true worth. Consider this, no PG in the history of the league has shouldered as big of a scoring load in such an efficient manner. TP just dissects opposing defenses, hes always been a great finisher but hes added a deadly mid range shot to his arsenal. So if people are going to call him a scoring guard, you have to call him arguably the best scoring PG in the history of the game.


Lets look at my list smart guy. Who on my list would I replace Billups with? If I were a fan of the Hornets, Jazz, Bulls, Suns or Spurs I would not trade my pg with Billups. Not to say he is not a great player, or maybe even sixth on the list.

The only person I could see bumping on my list is Derrick Rose because his body of work is so short, but my opinion is, and always will be, based on the big picture. There is nothing mediocre about that. If I am a team in need of a point guard there is only two guys I would want before DRose and that Paul or Williams.
Your list was a joke, trading for players has little to do with the players actual value, and more to do with his potential, youth and monetary value.

Billups and TP are easily better than everyone you listed outside of CP3, and Deron is arguable.

Kakaroach
04-07-2009, 04:58 PM
For those who say that Parker is carrying a heavier load. Please, Williams has not had Boozer for 50-someodd games this season and who is still not playing at the All-Star level we are all accustomed to. And has missed AK-47 for a ton of games as well. He was playing with a bumb ankle for the first two months he was back. I love TP and think he is def. #3, but no one right now is as good as CP3 or D. Will. Its hard to pick even between those two, CP3 has the better stats but Deron has won head-to-head like 12-2. That discussion aside, if you don't think Deron is the second best PG in the league then you are either hating D. Will or are a TP fanboy.

Raps08-09 Champ
04-07-2009, 05:09 PM
He has the same talent as all the other guards and he is younger.

Chronz
04-07-2009, 05:10 PM
What? Mason and Bonner is a great addition to your team... They are one of the best 3 pointers in the league...
So is Korver, Okur, Miles.


Mason can also score big time in the clutch... He saved your *** a couple of times already...
Mason can hit big shots that TP or Duncan create but its not like hes Mehmet Okur. If Mason and Bonner are great additions then Milsap and Brewer are tremendous additions.


Finley and Bowen are still great, Hill is a great backup pg, Thomas is a great role player...
Yes all the Spurs players are great and definitely not over the hill or newborn.



Jazz's players just look better because D-Will makes them look better...
Yes D-Will makes AK47 look better than Finley, Brewer only looks better than Mason, Milsap only looks better than Gooden, and Okur only looks better than Bonner even though theyve all continued to look like better players when Deron isnt even on the court with them


You ae nagging about Ginobili's injury? Well, AK47 and Boozer has been out a lot too... I believe Boozer have played lesser games than Manu...
The difference is when Manu is out your replacing his minutes with Udoka/Bowen and increasing the burden on burned out vets like Finley. When Boozer gos down, you got 2 other All-Star caliber forward waiting in the lurks. (AK47 is at his best when hes the 4 without Boozer).


You think Duncan in not consistent? Dude, watch Boozer, Milsap, Okur and AK47! Now those players are inconsistent! Having Duncan in your team is a lot of help to TP... Take him out and your team will suck...

Thats because TD is better than those guys, not because Deron is better than TP. Take MilsapANDBoozer off the team, along with Brewer (What Im approximating to be Duncans worth to the Spurs) and see how good the Jazz are then.

Chronz
04-07-2009, 05:14 PM
For those who say that Parker is carrying a heavier load. Please, Williams has not had Boozer for 50-someodd games this season and who is still not playing at the All-Star level we are all accustomed to.
He had Milsap to take in his minutes and Manu is more important to the Spurs than Boozer is to the Spurs.


And has missed AK-47 for a ton of games as well. He was playing with a bumb ankle for the first two months he was back.

Then why didnt the team collapse if hes not up to speed or there at all? DEPTH, thus hes been able to carry less of a load. TP has carried a bigger load all season.


I love TP and think he is def. #3, but no one right now is as good as CP3 or D. Will. Its hard to pick even between those two, CP3 has the better stats but Deron has won head-to-head like 12-2. That discussion aside, if you don't think Deron is the second best PG in the league then you are either hating D. Will or are a TP fanboy.
Neither, Im a Deron NUTHUGGER, I just dont see what makes him better than TP.

hotpotato1092
04-07-2009, 05:18 PM
TP has a bad shot and can be a defensive liability, Deron doesn't have any true weaknesses, if he was on the spurs and TP was on the Jazz the Spurs would win the title.

Kakaroach
04-07-2009, 05:26 PM
Millsap is not offensively good as Boozer. When Boozer came back. Kyle Korver's and CJ Miles' shooting picked up. Millsap can not give you 20/10 on any given night like Boozer can. And depth?! If you take out Millsap who was replacing Boozer, Harpring out for the majority of the season, AK-47 missing a good 2 months or so, Kyle Korver shooting poorly until Boozer came back, and suddenly you don't have a lot of depth. BTW, I meant Deron has had a bumb ankle. And Deron has a great jump-shot, TP does not.

Chronz
04-07-2009, 06:59 PM
TP has a bad shot and can be a defensive liability, Deron doesn't have any true weaknesses, if he was on the spurs and TP was on the Jazz the Spurs would win the title.
TP has a bad shot, your like 2 years short, is gotten MUCH better. Its never looked this pure and effortless, Deron is streaky. They dont win a title cuz he cant score the way they need from the PG spot.

Carpdog
04-07-2009, 07:09 PM
So you base your list on who you would/wouldn't trade for???? What type of big picture are you ruminating on???? Or did you even put any thought into such opinion???

For one, I wouldn't trade Billups for Nash....

Two, I don't think Devin Harris would come and change a teams chemistry and make them better like Billups did...Because Billups has championship experience, and knows what it takes for a team to win....

And presently, D-Rose is a rookie getting compared to a FINALS MVP....So yeah, your list is mediocre....D-Rose will be better then all of them on that list, but we not talking future postulation or confident assumption....We're talking what we know as of right now....And Billups should be on anybodys top 5 pg list, because of what he;s achieved and is still achieving, whether you regard that as just my personal opinion or not.

Wow, your an idiot. You are one of those people who like to twist words to make people sound dumb. If I would not want Billups on my team over one of those guys via trade.......then why would I say he is better than them.

More stupidity. You agree Rose will be the best of them all, but you think it is mediocre to put him on the list? I didnt put Kirk Hinrich on the list, I put the guy you think will soon be the best pg in the NBA and you are calling me on it. You are the one with a "mediocre" opinion.

Vinny642
04-07-2009, 07:21 PM
LOL IM not arguing anything about CP3 here but for TP DWill and Nash
For me-
Dwill is second best almost first, he is a great PG

TP- Third, he can score efficiently, not really a great passer in terms of assists but he got three rings so he much be doing something right.

Nash- 4th barely, too me he is losing his step still can shoot the three and amazing passes. but he needs defense.

Chronz
04-07-2009, 07:26 PM
Millsap is not offensively good as Boozer.
When did I say he was?


When Boozer came back. Kyle Korver's and CJ Miles' shooting picked up.
I dont think Im seeing your point, could you clarify?


Millsap can not give you 20/10 on any given night like Boozer can. And depth?! If you take out Millsap who was replacing Boozer,
Youve missed the point entirely, unless you got a point your trying to make Im not sure how this counters anything Ive said about the level of drop off from a replacement value.

But how many games have the Jazz played without the services of 1 of them atleast?


Harpring out for the majority of the season, AK-47 missing a good 2 months or so, Kyle Korver shooting poorly until Boozer came back, and suddenly you don't have a lot of depth.
You still have alot more depth than the Spurs without Manu.


BTW, I meant Deron has had a bumb ankle. And Deron has a great jump-shot, TP does not.

Not anymore, TP has a beautiful pull up mid range/short range J, and is easily the superior scorer.

ragee
04-07-2009, 07:36 PM
Chronz, we can go all day and comparing and finding flaws of each team but by the end of the day, I would trade the rest of the Jazz (-D-Will) to get the rest of the Spurs (-Parker). Spurs fans keep saying that Parker carries his team especially when Duncan is not playing well... Deron did the same... With and without AK47 and Boozer... Take those two out and your team looks so much better than ours... Watch some Jazz games and you'll see how inconsistent the players you are praising are... Brewer? Korver? AK? Boozer? Milsap? even Okur? Yes... All of them... Deron is the one thing that keeps them from falling from falling out of place... I am not taking anything away from Tony Parker but I believe Deron Williams is just better than him...

Ironman5219
04-07-2009, 07:49 PM
because he IS the 2nd best PG in the league... TP is still underrated and i agree that he's a close 3rd but dwill is simply better... i love steve nash, but he's just not in the same league as those 3 guys anymore...


I hate this debate becuase each PG is vital to his team. Yes CP3 has the numbers, but D-Will has a better all around game, stronger athlete, BETTER Coached, and oh ya is like 12-2 against CP-3, The last game in NO says it all

ragee
04-07-2009, 07:54 PM
But how many games have the Jazz played without the services of 1 of them atleast?
Boozer and MIlsap? A lot... Boozer has only played 32 games so far and MIlsap missed a couple of games too... And now that they are both playing, they are losing more!!!:mad:


You still have alot more depth than the Spurs without Manu.

Yes, Jazz has more depth on paper... However, they are so inconsistent... Boozer shot like 7 out 21 in like on game... Plus, I think you are only looking at in in the offensive side... On defense, your team is so much better...




Not anymore, TP has a beautiful pull up mid range/short range J, and is easily the superior scorer.

I have to agree on you on this one... Parker is the better scorer... And yes, I was shocked... He finally did develop his jumpshot... The only advantage D-Will has on scoring is probably the free throw...

madiaz3
04-07-2009, 08:00 PM
I have to agree on you on this one... Parker is the better scorer... And yes, I was shocked... He finally did develop his jumpshot... The only advantage D-Will has on scoring is probably the free throw...

Maybe a little something else called the three-pointer...

ragee
04-07-2009, 08:10 PM
Maybe a little something else called the three-pointer...

Hahaha... True... But, Deron's 3pt % is almost the same as Parker's... It is not that good...

NYMetros
04-07-2009, 08:13 PM
IMO Deron is easily the best PG in the NBA. Plays defense, shoots, rebounds, great passer with both hands, high basketball IQ, great under pressure, just a phenomenal leader. I really hope no one has said CP3 is a good defender. Steals does not equal a good defender. They equal someone who gambles a lot and has quick hands. That doesn't mean he can stay in front of his man or be hard to back down in the post, like Deron is.

dre1990
04-07-2009, 08:16 PM
Chauncey = 2nd best PG in the NBA

Vinny642
04-07-2009, 08:20 PM
IMO Deron is easily the best PG in the NBA. Plays defense, shoots, rebounds, great passer with both hands, high basketball IQ, great under pressure, just a phenomenal leader. I really hope no one has said CP3 is a good defender. Steals does not equal a good defender. They equal someone who gambles a lot and has quick hands. That doesn't mean he can stay in front of his man or be hard to back down in the post, like Deron is.

Shows how much you know about CP
He can stay in front of someone.... and he isn't a bad defender, he doesn't get in the post with another player like ever.... when he does then he holds his own. Dude shut up and watch him.

Kakaroach
04-07-2009, 08:58 PM
CJ's and Korver's shooting picked up because of the fact that Boozer was back in the line-up. He is much better offensively, demanding more double-teams and commanding more attention down low so the shooters can be more open, which is why their shooting increased. How do the Jazz have depth if those guys are either injured, having to start, or are not performing? Guys such as Harpring, AK-47, Korver, and Millsap. And how are the Spurs' not deep? They have Gooden, Thomas, Hill, Udoka, and others who make contributions off of the bench. Deron is not streaky, TP is the one that is streaky. Teams can live with TP making jump-shots, not D. Will. And if you think TP has a better jumper than D. Will, you haven't watched D. Will. Still love TP, but he has one of the best PFs' of all time on his side, another guy who can carry the load offensively.

madiaz3
04-07-2009, 09:02 PM
Hahaha... True... But, Deron's 3pt % is almost the same as Parker's... It is not that good...

Last three years he averaged about 38%, dunno why its so low this year. Parker can hit them in rhythm from the corner, but he won't stretch a defense to have to cover him at the top of the 3 point arc.

Carpdog
04-07-2009, 09:25 PM
You accuse me of bein an idiot, yet you can't distinguish a chocolate bar from dark excrement....Your literacy is that of a little child....

...Yes I said Rose will be better then them all, but what piece of text did I contribute afterwards???? Read again.."but we not talking future postulation or confident assumption....We're talking what we know as of right now"<<<I said that right after I posted my 'future expectations' of D-Rose....But this isn't about 'future expectations', so get it right and stop accusing me of your standards of what an "idiot" is and learn to read...

And I already explained your nonsense about picking players you would/wouldn't trade for...Like Chronz stated, that has nothing to do with value, and Billups has achieved more then Devin Harris and Derrick Rose put together presently, and Chauncey has as much achievements as Nash does but shadows him with a championship ring and finals MVP.

Right now, 2009, if Billups isn't in your top 5 list, then your list and your opinions can't be took serious by a basketball enthusiast such as me.

Do you even know what you are saying? You say I am not understanding and yet it is you who lacks the comprehension. If I would not prefer Billups on my team to the other people then I do not think he is better. Not hard to understand. Don't post if you want to attack the OPINIONS of others as the only thing you will contribute to the thread. You just look pathetic. By the way, you should really do a spell check before you comment on someone's literacy. "You accuse me of bein an idiot..." Is "bein" a word in the literate people's dictionary.

Lets ask you a question since you seem to have such an extensive knowledge base on point guards in the NBA. You base your opinion on the fact that Billups has won championships and MVP honors and Rose is just a rookie. Then you say I have a stupid OPINION for thinking a rookie is better than Billups. You continue to say that Rose will be the best point guard in the NBA soon enough. What if Rose never wins any awards or never wins any titles? Does that mean Rose can never be considered a top 5 PG? By your logic, Billups and Parker should be considered the best PG's in the league because they have the most previous accolades. Paul never won anything but he is hands down the best.

You say not to consider Derrick because he has not done anything yet, but you are putting someone on the list who's achievements are in the past? What Billups did in 2004 is just as irrelevant as what Rose will do in the future when you are talking the best PG in the game today.

If someone asks me who the best PG's in the NBA are, my opinion is based off of what players I would most want running my team. The order I placed them is the order I would want them. That is my opinion and you are nobody to judge someones credibility based on their opinions. More people in the world would find Billups better than Rose as of today but if I assembled a team tomorrow and could pick between the two, I will take Rose.

How is your opinion that Rose will be the BEST on the list soon enough any less "mediocre"? If he has not done anything how can you have this prediction? What is it based on? How can you call someone elses opinions suspect when you yourself have an opinion that is based on ONLY Roses play right now? How can you be so sure he will be better than Chris Paul and his 22 ppg, 5 rpg, 11 apg if he was not already in the discussion of the top 5 pg's in the NBA.?

A simple, "I disagree with your list because Billups should have been on it" would do fine. It would even allow you to contribute to the thread without all the other little kid nonsense.

Carpdog
04-08-2009, 12:12 AM
HAHAHA tell em why you mad???? Resorting to spell checks actin` like thats goin` to affect anything because I said the word "bein`"....


Your whole post is the accumulation of an emotional crybaby syndrome....

Paul and Deron haven't achieved things that Billups has, but they have proven over the years that they have more dynamics to the game.....In their years of playin, they are ahead of what Billups was when he first started....They are accomplishin things at a faster rate.....The measurement of their background in the NBA has proven to be of superb standards of what is necessary for a PG to accomplish......This isn't no "assumption" of how good they will be in the future, it's already based on the foundation they have built for themselves thus far...

My "logic" is based on whats been proven till this time in bEIN`....Not what assumption I take, like you seem to be great at doin`.....

Billups came to a team and improved them drastically...Is that in the past already???? Billups has shown that he;s a complete leader, and the fact that he "ACHIEVED" all of them things in the past, implies that he has such a repertoire and bank of knowledge on how to play in the NBA, that no ROOKIE can be ranked above him at this time.....Is is really that complex for your simple childish mind to comprehend that????

My opinion of Rose being the best later on, is based on physical observation with my own eyes, and putting such measurement to the potential he has at flourishing in his game...Being at such a young age and playin with such intensity, I can notice that Rose will be the best....Whats mediocre about that??? Only a little child who is mediocre himself, would try to identify anything like that as bEIN` mediocre....

And your opinion is mediocre still....Because as of 2009, Billups is a top 5.....I'm not the only one who called ya list a joke....So do the math....This thread wasn;t about what PG you would assemble a team with, this thread is about why Deron williams is considered the 2nd best PG, not "Why will Deron be considered the 2nd best pg"...It's putting emphasis on the present, not the future....So please, keep your joke of an opinion to yourself. And thank you.

Lol. Ok so what we established here is that you like to throw big words into posts but you really don't know what they mean.

When I look at opinions of others, I post my disagreement with integrity. When you throw names out there like Paul, Williams, Nash, Rose, Billups, Parker, and Harris and make a top PG list, how can it be perceived as a joke? There were no Luke Ridnour or Jordan Farmar type players. To not just give your opinion but to add a jab in there, you are the type of person who posts just to get people pissed. I found myself defending my opinion of top names when really outside of Chris Paul at number 1, the rest of the list can be interchangeable. Even right now, I will take Rose or Harris over Billups. Billups is a great player. He helped bring the Nuggets together extremely well. But before he ever got there, the overwhelming consensus of their team was they needed a PG to bring it together. Any person on that list would have the chance to bring it together. Would Billups have had the same impact on a team with less talent and a less experienced coaching staff?

My last comment as I move to a new thread is that I think it is funny how you insult me for my opinion but you honestly think you can make the statement that Rose will be better than Chris Paul based on what you have seen? That statement is far more of a stretch than calling Rose a top 5 pg now. Paul could not play that position any better. He scores when he needs to and he distributes better than anyone is basketball.

You can not insult someone for including a young player on a list, say there stupid for even thinking it, and then say that, based on your expert observations, the same player will be better than all of them including Chris Paul. You really don't see the ridiculousness of you comments? This year Rose can not possibly be considered a top 5, but in the next couple of years he will be so good that he will be regarded as the best PG in the NBA? Its a list. Not everyones will be the same. I wont be in this post anymore as there is nothing new really being added. I wont be reading any dumb reply's you may have about how this thread is about Deron Williams and why your not stupid for making claims about the future but I am for having an opinion that two people took the time to negatively comment on. Have some class next time. It will only be fun to be an *** for awhile. Then you will get depressed that no one likes you.

IversonIsKrazy
04-08-2009, 12:15 AM
I think Tony is equally as good as Deron. Just look, Deron only has Boozer, now that GInobili is out, Tony has Duncan. We'll c how Tony averages w/o GInobili. i c him being a 25/7/2 w/o ginobili.

JayW_1023
04-08-2009, 04:01 AM
Parker has been doing it all for The Spurs. Deron didn't have as much pressure to perform, because his team has enough depth to pick up the slack. Parker had to play better than ever for the Spurs to even be a competitive team with their injuries. And he has delivered.

Even though Parker has Duncan, Williams has two allstars as bigs to choose to pick and pop with...Boozer and Okur...and Millsap has replaced Boozer very well when Boozer was out. When Manu and Duncan were out Parker had no one to step up. He had to carry the Spurs both scoring wise and distributing.

Don't tell me Roger Mason and Matt Bonner are better than Kirilenko and Paul Millsap. If that's true in your word you're full of crap. I'll still rate Williams slightly over Parker, but this season as a whole, Parker has been playing better, more consistent basketball than Deron.


I may have exaggerated when I said Parker destroyed Williams that series...but Deron Williams routinely couldn't stop Tony in the open floor that series.

JayW_1023
04-08-2009, 04:16 AM
Then why didnt the team collapse if hes not up to speed or there at all? DEPTH, thus hes been able to carry less of a load. TP has carried a bigger load all season.



Great points...when Deron struggled in the first half the Jazz were holding up just fine.

DenButsu
04-08-2009, 04:16 AM
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
.

JayW_1023
04-08-2009, 04:21 AM
Having Duncan in your team is a lot of help to TP... Take him out and your team will suck...

In the games where Duncan was out Parker was on an absolute tear...keeping the Spurs afloat.

And those who still claim that Parker is nothing but a scoring point guard haven't been paying attention to his play this season. Parker has been remarkably efficient finding his teammates, and his turnovers are down.

Parkers main weakness has been his range, but his midrange J has vastly improved and he can knock that down with consistency.

Chronz
04-08-2009, 04:51 AM
Chronz, we can go all day and comparing and finding flaws of each team but by the end of the day, I would trade the rest of the Jazz (-D-Will) to get the rest of the Spurs (-Parker).
And I think both teams would get worse if you switched PG's. The Spurs need TP's scoring ability the same way the Jazz need Derons table setting.


Spurs fans keep saying that Parker carries his team especially when Duncan is not playing well... Deron did the same... With and without AK47 and Boozer... Take those two out and your team looks so much better than ours...
First off, the Spurs arent my team, and what you said is true, he averaged like 30 in the stretch both AK and Boozer were out but the team was 5-7 during this stretch and they actually won one of the games without Deron. In the absence of Manu, which has basically been all year hes lead the Spurs by taking over the offense erupting in the games where he accounted for more PTS than the opposing team while on the floor for like 2 games in a row I believe.

There is no question that both have the ability to step up in absence of a star, Im not disputing that, only that the loss of Manu is more devastating than the loss of Boozer for a year and AK for a few games. The Jazz have suffered the loss of key stars, but in TP's case he didnt have a capable replacement player to fill in the gap.


Watch some Jazz games and you'll see how inconsistent the players you are praising are... Brewer? Korver? AK? Boozer? Milsap? even Okur? Yes... All of them... Deron is the one thing that keeps them from falling from falling out of place...
Watch some of the Spurs, especially their early season games and you'll see how consistently average TP's supporting cast is. TP's scoring ability is what keeps the Spurs in games long enough to squeak out the W despite being undermanned and not having an All-Star caliber replacement waiting to step up. Id much rather have guys who atleast have the potential for huge games than guys you know arent going to be able to give you the kind of support Deron gets when one of his stars is out.



I am not taking anything away from Tony Parker but I believe Deron Williams is just better than him...

Thats fine, but Im not buying why most have felt that way. People like to overrate some of the Spurs guys but Deron has more talent next to him.


Boozer and MIlsap? A lot... Boozer has only played 32 games so far and MIlsap missed a couple of games too... And now that they are both playing, they are losing more!!!:mad:
I was speaking about them missing games together because in that scenario it would be like losing Manu and having no one to step in for him. There were a total of 6 such games, do you really think that compares to the loss of missing Manu for what will ultimately be about half the season?

In terms of carrying the bigger load, its fairly obvious just by looking at the numbers that TP has carried the bigger load.


Yes, Jazz has more depth on paper... However, they are so inconsistent... Boozer shot like 7 out 21 in like on game... Plus, I think you are only looking at in in the offensive side... On defense, your team is so much better...
Duncan has had those games (7/21 against Dallas) I heard his health has bothered him abit, most notably on Sunday when he went 2/7 registering his 3rd single double of the year. Not saying hes been as inconsistent as Boozer only that to really try and get a handle of a teams consistency trend takes more than 1 game. I dont think the Jazz are any more inconsistent than most teams in the West, I just think its a product of you watching that team alot and not seeing the other teams as much. Its only human


I have to agree on you on this one... Parker is the better scorer... And yes, I was shocked... He finally did develop his jumpshot... The only advantage D-Will has on scoring is probably the free throw...
Hes better at getting to the line and posting up, and I dont know whats been going on with it but Deron's pull up J has been shaky this year, or your favorite word inconsistent.

Chronz
04-08-2009, 04:58 AM
IMO Deron is easily the best PG in the NBA. Plays defense, shoots, rebounds, great passer with both hands, high basketball IQ, great under pressure, just a phenomenal leader. I really hope no one has said CP3 is a good defender. Steals does not equal a good defender. They equal someone who gambles a lot and has quick hands. That doesn't mean he can stay in front of his man or be hard to back down in the post, like Deron is.
Hes definitely not the best, if he were as great as you claim then why is he not as good at CP3 at rebounding, passing and ball handling, willing his team to victory, if he has the higher IQ then why does he settle for lower % shots and turn it over way more than most of the upper echelon PG's. My guess is that hes not Jesus.

Also steals dont equal someone who gambles alot, it CAN but its not set in stone that if you have alot of steals your a bad defender, look at Artest, he gambles ALOT but hes still a very valuable defender because hes so great at picking your pocket. So much so that his very presence prevents teams from trying certain passes knowing hes there.

CP3 The Great
04-08-2009, 04:59 AM
Chris Paul is the best enough said.
tony parker is really good but when the team was getting those three rings there is a guy in san antonio that ran that team number 21 tim duncan if it wasn't for him tony parker doesn't shine like he does, deron williams is second best though then tony parker.. for now derrick rose is the most thoroughbread point guard since ______ NOBODY thats how unique he is!

Chronz
04-08-2009, 05:20 AM
CJ's and Korver's shooting picked up because of the fact that Boozer was back in the line-up. He is much better offensively, demanding more double-teams and commanding more attention down low so the shooters can be more open, which is why their shooting increased. How do the Jazz have depth if those guys are either injured, having to start, or are not performing? Guys such as Harpring, AK-47, Korver, and Millsap. And how are the Spurs' not deep? They have Gooden, Thomas, Hill, Udoka, and others who make contributions off of the bench. Deron is not streaky, TP is the one that is streaky. Teams can live with TP making jump-shots, not D. Will. And if you think TP has a better jumper than D. Will, you haven't watched D. Will. Still love TP, but he has one of the best PFs' of all time on his side, another guy who can carry the load offensively.
Your all over the place here, Im having trouble seeing your point. Gooden has barely joined the team, I think your bias is clearly showing by mentioning him. Gooden has played approx. 6% of his teams minutes at 1 position, the guys you have claimed to be missing and thus not part of their depth chart have contributed for MUCH longer portions of the season than him. Listing Udoka doesnt help your case at all, Hill has been decent FOR A ROOK, he is not to be mistaken as some kind of pivotal bench player. The Ronnie Price/Brevin Knight tandem hasnt been much of a downgrade from Hill. Finley having to play the most minutes he ever has as a Spur speaks volumes about their depth chart losses. This team is fairly deep if Manu is healthy, without him remember they are missing a player who almost as important as TP himself, as good as Boozer is he has a great replacement player, and no other Jazz player comes close to being as valuable as Manu.

I never said TP was a better shooter, he doesnt have the form that Deron does but until he starts making it with regularity again it wont matter, I really think you should read my entire post before posting any sort of rebuttal. TP has Duncan, but 2 players can still carry an offense more than 1 player on a team without superstars. Both Duncan and TP do more for their teams offense than Deron does for the Jazz. The Jazz win by committee, teams with depth do this, like the Pistons of old, neither Chauncey or Rip had a Tim Duncan next to them but neither had to carry as big of a load as TP is now.

And another thing to think about, who plays better when these 2 face up against eachother, and how does their level of play differ from their average vs the elite teams. From what Ive seen TP plays better against better competition.

lunatik487
04-08-2009, 11:18 AM
Hes definitely not the best, if he were as great as you claim then why is he not as good at CP3 at rebounding, passing and ball handling, willing his team to victory, if he has the higher IQ then why does he settle for lower % shots and turn it over way more than most of the upper echelon PG's. My guess is that hes not Jesus.

Also steals dont equal someone who gambles alot, it CAN but its not set in stone that if you have alot of steals your a bad defender, look at Artest, he gambles ALOT but hes still a very valuable defender because hes so great at picking your pocket. So much so that his very presence prevents teams from trying certain passes knowing hes there.

Check the stats from January-forward my dude. D-Will is beating CP3 in everything since the new year except turnovers.

Joshtd1
04-08-2009, 12:45 PM
I think the biggest reason TP isnt rated that way, is because of his assist numbers. Not his fault though, since its Pop's offensive scheme. He WANTS TP to be a scorer, instead of a pure, pass first PG.

Im glad I'm not the only one that felt TP might be better then D-Will. I do agree that CP3 is the best PG though.

Joshtd1
04-08-2009, 12:46 PM
In regards to the supporting cast too.....Utah's supporting cast around D-Will is much better then what TP has. Outside of Duncan and Manu that is...

DrDEADalready
04-08-2009, 12:55 PM
Why is Deron Williams widely regarded as the 2nd best PG in the game?

Hm..tough question...Maybe it's because he is!! Stats don't lie.

GodsSon
04-08-2009, 01:07 PM
D-Will is a beast and will be had by the Raptors for Kapono and Banks :D

jehovah joe
04-08-2009, 01:09 PM
because he plays in utah

DrDEADalready
04-08-2009, 01:11 PM
because he plays in utah


Haha. what does that mean?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-08-2009, 01:18 PM
LOL to the dude said he has a more efficient crossover... LOL since when is a crossover a kept statistic?? When do crossovers win ball games??

(I watch alot of jazz games and if you look at the times dwill crosses someone over... he'll miss the shot, more often then not)

CP3 is better... CHECK THE STATS!!!!!

"BUT stats arent everything!"

Hornets are higher in the Div. Also they been injured all season.

Whos in the MVP talks??? Dwill or CP3?

DrDEADalready
04-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Dwill.

Joshtd1
04-08-2009, 03:08 PM
Why is Deron Williams widely regarded as the 2nd best PG in the game?

Hm..tough question...Maybe it's because he is!! Stats don't lie.

Not all the time, but they are misleading a lot of the time as well.

DrDEADalready
04-08-2009, 03:10 PM
Misleading as in how? They tell you how they player performs in all catagories. and you judge that to other players.

Hawkeye15
04-08-2009, 03:31 PM
Misleading as in how? They tell you how they player performs in all catagories. and you judge that to other players.

Allen Iverson used to be a league leader in steals, but that stat didn't show that he also got backdoored more than anyone, and missed constant gambles. A point guard with an equal turnover rate, like Parker or Williams, the stats don't show how that offense runs. Chris Paul has the ball in his hands far more the Williams, yet turns the ball over less. Stats don't tell me how often they forced a player out of their comfort zone on shot attempts, or how many missed blockouts or rotations they had. Stats are a good indicator, when used with watching them play, what kind of system they run, and how much personal responsibility a player has.
At this time, Chris Paul is easily the best PG in the NBA. Williams is a close second, but Parker is right with him

Chronz
04-08-2009, 04:02 PM
Even though Parker has Duncan, Williams has two allstars as bigs to choose to pick and pop with...Boozer and Okur...and Millsap has replaced Boozer very well when Boozer was out. When Manu and Duncan were out Parker had no one to step up. He had to carry the Spurs both scoring wise and distributing.

Dear god you werent joking

3/25: Spurs 102, Hawks 92
Parker: 42pts, 18 of 25fg, 10ast, 3reb, 1stl, 2to, 39min

3/17: Timberwolves 86, Spurs 93
Parker: 24pts, 9 of 19fg, 6ast, 2reb, 1stl, 0to, 35min

2/27: Cleveland 97, Spurs 86
Parker: 11pts, 3 of 16fg, 6ast, 5reb, 1stl, 3to, 29min

2/25: Blazers 84, Spurs 99
Parker: 39 points, 17 of 27fg, 9ast, 5reb, 1to, 35min

2/24: Dallas 76, Spurs 93
Parker: 37points, 15 of 32fg, 12ast, 5reb, 2to, 37min

4-1 record
30.6ppg, 62 of 119fg, 52.1fg%, 8.6apg, 4rpg, 0.6spg, 1.6topg (5.4ast:1to ratio)

Much more impressive than what Deron did without AK/Boozer while still having Milsap to help out. And these are numbers are in a super sluggish play in only 35MPG. And these are some ELITE teams he completely destroyed, he didnt lose to the crap Deron did on his own (with Milsap)

cwoodbush24
04-08-2009, 04:05 PM
I agree with you. Why is he regarded as the 2nd best in the league. HE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED #1 IN THE LEAGUE!!! Let me explain why. 1st of lets just start by comparing head to head with chris paul. 11-2. He simply just dominates cp3! 2nd of all there stats are pretty much similiar except for the steals. Next is D.Will is a Much better shooter, bigger, stronger, and has the physical ability to last in this league. When they start to get older cp3's game will vastly diminish because he relys on speed and he will lose speed the older he gets. D.will will be more productive in the long run because everything that he relys on right now, he wont lose as he gets older, his shot, his strength, vision, etc. And trust me, if D.Will has the ball in his hands on every single play(like cp3 does) he will easily average better stats than
cp3. and also cp3 gets pushed around by bigger PG's(like deron and chauncy). So yeah, cp3 looks better now and more flashier, but D.will is just as producitve, if not more(because jerry sloan makes him play his system). I can go on all day explaining why D.will is and will be the best PG in the NBA, but i just dont have the time. Peace!

DrDEADalready
04-08-2009, 04:10 PM
I agree with you. Why is he regarded as the 2nd best in the league. HE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED #1 IN THE LEAGUE!!! Let me explain why. 1st of lets just start by comparing head to head with chris paul. 11-2. He simply just dominates cp3! 2nd of all there stats are pretty much similiar except for the steals. Next is D.Will is a Much better shooter, bigger, stronger, and has the physical ability to last in this league. When they start to get older cp3's game will vastly diminish because he relys on speed and he will lose speed the older he gets. D.will will be more productive in the long run because everything that he relys on right now, he wont lose as he gets older, his shot, his strength, vision, etc. And trust me, if D.Will has the ball in his hands on every single play(like cp3 does) he will easily average better stats than
cp3. and also cp3 gets pushed around by bigger PG's(like deron and chauncy). So yeah, cp3 looks better now and more flashier, but D.will is just as producitve, if not more(because jerry sloan makes him play his system). I can go on all day explaining why D.will is and will be the best PG in the NBA, but i just dont have the time. Peace!

Oh how I love you :love: lol

Chronz
04-08-2009, 04:23 PM
Check the stats from January-forward my dude. D-Will is beating CP3 in everything since the new year except turnovers.
Who told you that lie?


I think the biggest reason TP isnt rated that way, is because of his assist numbers. Not his fault though, since its Pop's offensive scheme. He WANTS TP to be a scorer, instead of a pure, pass first PG.

Im glad I'm not the only one that felt TP might be better then D-Will. I do agree that CP3 is the best PG though.

Whats amazing is that their assists numbers arent that far off, not like the way they used to be, TP has really improved in this area. TP's assist% has usually been in the high 20's / low 30's while Deron has gradually risen from 41 to 47% in the last 3 years. This year however marks the first time in his career that TP joined the 40% club. The Spurs slow pace and their philosophy for keeping players minutes down prevents him from having a 8+ assist average (I hated the way this warped peoples perception of Manu in his prime and its playing out again for TP). His Assist ratio is still low and will never be as high as Derons but where is it engraved that in order to be the superior PG you have to be an inferior scorer and a better passer, It feels like thats whats killing Stuckey's game right now, he NEVER looks to score anymore and takes too long running an offense. What makes CP3 better than both TP and Deron is the fact that he combines the traits of both, with superior rebounding and leadership.




Why is Deron Williams widely regarded as the 2nd best PG in the game?

Hm..tough question...Maybe it's because he is!! Stats don't lie.
Statistically speaking all of the 3 outside the #1 spot are very close and Id argue that TP has the best stats of all of them.

Chronz
04-08-2009, 04:30 PM
I agree with you. Why is he regarded as the 2nd best in the league. HE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED #1 IN THE LEAGUE!!! Let me explain why. 1st of lets just start by comparing head to head with chris paul. 11-2. He simply just dominates cp3! 2nd of all there stats are pretty much similiar except for the steals. Next is D.Will is a Much better shooter, bigger, stronger, and has the physical ability to last in this league. When they start to get older cp3's game will vastly diminish because he relys on speed and he will lose speed the older he gets. D.will will be more productive in the long run because everything that he relys on right now, he wont lose as he gets older, his shot, his strength, vision, etc. And trust me, if D.Will has the ball in his hands on every single play(like cp3 does) he will easily average better stats than
cp3. and also cp3 gets pushed around by bigger PG's(like deron and chauncy). So yeah, cp3 looks better now and more flashier, but D.will is just as producitve, if not more(because jerry sloan makes him play his system). I can go on all day explaining why D.will is and will be the best PG in the NBA, but i just dont have the time. Peace!

How come people DONT apply this head2head as the ultimate stance when it comes to Yao vs Dwight?

Also TP is 8-4 vs Deron

And no CP3's stats blow every PG's out the water, the fact that Deron will age better doesnt make him better RIGHT NOW.

EDIT Meant to say NOT


Misleading as in how? They tell you how they player performs in all catagories. and you judge that to other players.
You know they are alot less misleading when you look at the best stats available. Per game averages arent the way to measure between players for the same reason they dont compare to the different era's of the league.

skinsfan4life80
04-08-2009, 04:34 PM
parker is a point guard who in a career year only gives you 7 dimes a game. DWill is good for 10 a night and 20 points. DWill is a better shooter (much) and better passer.

azkarraga
04-08-2009, 04:39 PM
TP is not in the same league as CP, DW, CB or SN. TP is a TJF from outer space, a hell of a player, best one in traffic for sure. but still not a great distributor. If he was, he would be one of the greatest ever.

nolin
04-08-2009, 04:45 PM
I'm going to say it right now. D-Will is the best PG in the league. If you see this man play, you see a 1-guard who doesn't have to blow you away with his stats or his flash to be a game-changer. D-Will has the athleticism, passing skill, and vision that CP3 has, with a bigger body, a SIGNIFICANTLY better jump shot and a more efficient crossover. D-Will can play off the ball too, whereas CP3 needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

what? you've got to be a true Jazz fan to think D will is close to being as good as cp3!

defender4m
04-08-2009, 04:46 PM
Devin harris is a beast

MrBloop
04-08-2009, 04:47 PM
I hear it everywhere all the time, the non stop comparisons on SC and NBATV yet cant seem to understand what hes done to merit that distinction when we have a 3-time champ entering the prime of his career, a former Finals MVP whos finally getting the recognition hes deserved for years. Nash has fallen off but hes not far off either.

Nash should not even be invited to this discussion party ever again.

Team Success aside, Deron has been a much more complete player from his rookie season to the present day. He's a more complete player than Parker and has fewer holes in his game as well...and this is coming from a guy who loves Tony Parker (no-homo).

Tony is 3rd right now, atleast until D-Rose gets some arc on his jumper.

nolin
04-08-2009, 04:54 PM
Top 5 pg's in the game today

1.Cp3
2.Parker
3.Billups
4.D Will
5.?

ragee
04-08-2009, 04:54 PM
Hes better at getting to the line and posting up, and I dont know whats been going on with it but Deron's pull up J has been shaky this year, or your favorite word inconsistent.

Hahaha... I never realized I said inconsistent so much until you told me!:laugh:

I think I watch Jazz games as much as I watch other western contenders... Coz I am rooting for all of them to lose so the Blazers will get the 2nd spot! :D The Jazz is not my team... I just like D-Will... Watching Boozer play pisses me off... INCONSISTENT and inconsiderate player who does not even care about his team... All he wants is to get paid more...

I am just going to point out one more thing about Manu and then I am done... I used to like the Spurs a lot because of Manu... One thing I realized about him is that he does really show his 100% in the regular season... He does most of his damage in the playoffs or when someone needs to steps up...

I still believe D-Will is the 2nd best pg...

1. CP3
2.D-Will
3.Parker
4.Billups

Those four are very close in my opinion... The next year, Billups will probably start to sow down and the next couple of years I think CP3 and D-Will will break out of the pack... That is just my opinion though...

Chronz
04-08-2009, 10:20 PM
Nash should not even be invited to this discussion party ever again.

Team Success aside, Deron has been a much more complete player from his rookie season to the present day. He's a more complete player than Parker and has fewer holes in his game as well...and this is coming from a guy who loves Tony Parker (no-homo).

Tony is 3rd right now, atleast until D-Rose gets some arc on his jumper.

I know Nash isnt ahead of them but hes certainly in that class, unless your giving him a class all his own because the next tier of PG's are nowhere near Nash. Like CP3 is at the core in his own stratosphere the next layer up are Deron,Billups and TP, and at the very crust we have Nash, after that its bunch of air. Some are more dense and closer to the ground, but alot of them are just empty.

And what does team success aside even mean? Do you mean ignoring how Parker has elevated his championship squads? Isnt that among the various things that Kobe supporters covet most. And if he were a more complete player then TP then wouldnt he be the better scorer/finisher, TP's drive and kick game is up there with anyones, both differ in their stylistic approach and how they go about playing the game, that doesnt make either one more "complete" or superior. Just different

D-Rose has a while to go before hes at ground level, his jumper looks fine to me though, certainly not as broke as I assumed it would be from everything I read coming into the season.


Top 5 pg's in the game today

1.Cp3
2.Parker
3.Billups
4.D Will
5.?
Thats how I have it but at the least we have to recognize that regardless of the order, all 3 are very close in terms of impact and value. The playoffs will tell us alot more about them, its a big year for all of them.

madiaz3
04-08-2009, 10:22 PM
Head to head numbers matter only if the player in question actually outdoes the other consistently. No one cares if the Spurs are 8-4 against Utah if Parker is outplayed time and time again.

Chronz
04-08-2009, 10:40 PM
Head to head numbers matter only if the player in question actually outdoes the other consistently. No one cares if the Spurs are 8-4 against Utah if Parker is outplayed time and time again.
So they dont matter if TP puts up a fight and outplays Deron? They all matter, but NOTHING matters more than an entire seasons worth of games. By the way who are your top 5 centers in the league.

dikimbemutumbo
04-08-2009, 11:29 PM
Derrek rose will be better than them all soon :p

lorenz00
04-08-2009, 11:31 PM
mikes james best point guard right? lolz

JayW_1023
04-09-2009, 10:10 AM
mikes james best point guard right? lolz

That gag has stopped being funny for awhile now...now it's just lame.

jimbobjarree
04-09-2009, 10:18 AM
burned

Nikolishin
04-09-2009, 10:32 AM
1. Chris Paul obviously
2. Deron Williams
3. Steve Nash
4. Jason Kidd
5. Chauncey Billups

Nikolishin
04-09-2009, 10:34 AM
I think Tony is equally as good as Deron. Just look, Deron only has Boozer, now that GInobili is out, Tony has Duncan. We'll c how Tony averages w/o GInobili. i c him being a 25/7/2 w/o ginobili.

sorry Isiah Thomas was the creater of the cross over, AI is just a wanna be champ

Lo Porto
04-09-2009, 10:40 AM
Isiah was not as good as AI. Noway that is possible at all. AI was one of the best 50 players of all time. He was averaging 30 points a game when the best offensive teams in the game were barely averaging 100. Isiah was good, but he was always surrounded by great players. AI wasn't ever surrounded by great players until Denver during his swan song.

JayW_1023
04-09-2009, 10:43 AM
Isiah was not as good as AI. Noway that is possible at all. AI was one of the best 50 players of all time. He was averaging 30 points a game when the best offensive teams in the game were barely averaging 100. Isiah was good, but he was always surrounded by great players. AI wasn't ever surrounded by great players until Denver during his swan song.

:speechless:

Bucsfan
04-09-2009, 11:01 AM
the way i see it, they are equal, the top 2 are at least, CP3, Dwill and TP are all fantastic players, but they all have different styles, i think dwill and cp3 are the best true point guards, tp is kind of hybrid PG, not a true pg imo

chuckdaily85
04-09-2009, 11:17 AM
everyone keeps saying if you take TP off you still have Manu and Duncan, but it goes both ways. If you take D-Will off Utah you still have three former/current all-stars (Boozer, Okur, and Kirilenko) and he still has valuable pieces compared to the Spurs(Milsap could start on damn 3/4 of the team in the league).