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EHL
03-30-2009, 07:13 PM
Would you consider Lebron as already having a much more impressive career than Kobe?


Sit with me and reflect for a minute. Lebron is having a statistically jaw dropping season. His PeR is the highest since a player from Chicago named Michael Jordan laced them up. He is most likely to receive the NBA MVP along with NBA All Defense and All NBA 1st team recognitions. And he's going to lead the Cavs with the most wins in a season in Cleveland history (along with possibly the second best home record in history) Now those are petty accomplishments you say, and I agree, but what if...Lebron also wins the Finals MVP and leads the Cleveland Cavaliers to a title?


Question: With those feat in mind, would you consider his accomplishments for the past 6 seasons a much more remarkable than that of Kobe?

29$JerZ
03-30-2009, 07:14 PM
Until he wins 3 he won't be compared to Kobe's career.
3 > 1

That's how it goes.

KB24PG16
03-30-2009, 07:15 PM
hes not going to have that feat when the lakers kick their ***

period

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 07:17 PM
Kobe still has the rings...so no. LeBron still needs to win a ring before his career is as good as Kobes. At least one ring.

EHL
03-30-2009, 07:21 PM
Until he wins 3 he won't be compared to Kobe's career.
3 > 1

That's how it goes.

Thats understandable, but lets keep in mind that Kobe is not the primary reason why he got those rings. I hate to bring this up but its true.


If Lebron wins this year with his cast (Compared to that of the 3 Peat Lakers) I think its undeniable that Lebron has been much more successful than Kobe (In regards to leading a team as the #1 guy)


Agree?

lakerboy
03-30-2009, 07:25 PM
I think he is right. Bottom line is, 3 > 1. No ifs and donts.

Think about this., what if LA wins against Cleveland in the finals.

Kobe would have four rings. LeBron 0, and 0-2 in championships.

madiaz3
03-30-2009, 07:26 PM
Thats understandable, but lets keep in mind that Kobe is not the primary reason why he got those rings. I hate to bring this up but its true.


If Lebron wins this year with his cast (Compared to that of the 3 Peat Lakers) I think its undeniable that Lebron has been much more successful than Kobe (In regards to leading a team as the #1 guy)


Agree?

He's not the primary, but he sure as hell wasn't a "secondary factor".
I made this post in another thread, in 00-01 playoffs, Shaq averaged 30.4ppg...Kobe 29.4PPG.
Shaq's competition in the finals was not exactly impressive. If the Spurs took out the Lakers, if the Kings had taken out the Lakers or any powerhouse Western team during the playoffs, there's no question that people believe they would have taken the Eastern finals team to school.

EHL
03-30-2009, 07:30 PM
He's not the primary, but he sure as hell wasn't a "secondary factor".
I made this post in another thread, in 00-01 playoffs, Shaq averaged 30.4ppg...Kobe 29.4PPG.
Shaq's competition in the finals was not exactly impressive. If the Spurs took out the Lakers, if the Kings had taken out the Lakers or any powerhouse Western team during the playoffs, there's no question that people believe they would have taken the Eastern finals team to school.

I understand but the point that I was saying is that Lebron never had an MVP type of player beside him if he leads the Cavs to a title. Kobe has had that luxury and still does ( Personally, I think Gasol is an MVP type of player given the chance for more touches in LA).

fire2last
03-30-2009, 07:43 PM
LeBron still would need atleast one more ring on top of those feats IMO for the debate to begin.

I don't think rings are everything but they are part of the scale.

Havlicek has 8 MJ has 6 I don't consider JH better than MJ.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 07:44 PM
I understand but the point that I was saying is that Lebron never had an MVP type of player beside him if he leads the Cavs to a title. Kobe has had that luxury and still does ( Personally, I think Gasol is an MVP type of player given the chance for more touches in LA).

Except for the fact that he is atrocious defensively. But hey, nobody cares about defense so it's all good.

MJ-BULLS
03-30-2009, 07:50 PM
no kobe is still better he has 3 rings and lebron hasnt done nothing compared to kobe

BlackMamba
03-30-2009, 07:52 PM
Give him a few years before you start comparing his career to Kobe's.

NYMetros
03-30-2009, 07:54 PM
Until he wins 3 he won't be compared to Kobe's career.
3 > 1

That's how it goes.

In terms of having the more impressive resumés, I agree, that is how it goes in my opinion. But I definitely don't have that same view when comparing players/saying who is better, etc.

LeBron still has a long way to go to catch up to Kobe's accomplishments. I think he will do it eventually though.

tdunk21
03-30-2009, 07:58 PM
Thats understandable, but lets keep in mind that Kobe is not the primary reason why he got those rings. I hate to bring this up but its true.


If Lebron wins this year with his cast (Compared to that of the 3 Peat Lakers) I think its undeniable that Lebron has been much more successful than Kobe (In regards to leading a team as the #1 guy)


Agree?

true....kobe was not the leader of the 3 peat lakers....and he cant win without shaq........kobe is not the type of leader that lebron is.....and that too kobe got his first MVP after 11 years and winning 3 rings...

lakerboy
03-30-2009, 08:01 PM
true....kobe was not the leader of the 3 peat lakers....and he cant win without shaq........kobe is not the type of leader that lebron is.....and that too kobe got his first MVP after 11 years and winning 3 rings...

LeBron can't win in the finals. How is that?

Brooke
03-30-2009, 08:06 PM
true....kobe was not the leader of the 3 peat lakers....and he cant win without shaq........kobe is not the type of leader that lebron is.....and that too kobe got his first MVP after 11 years and winning 3 rings...

and Kobe had nothing to do with 3 peat :rolleyes:

and Kobe is not as great as a leader? GMAB it took him so long to win one becaue when he should have won one, he played with a bunch of scrubs. You get voted as a MVP by how successful your team is

Vinny642
03-30-2009, 08:15 PM
IMO Lebron needs this title but even if he gets this one he won't be better then Kobe just yet, maybe at the end of his career.

GspLAL
03-30-2009, 08:21 PM
Those of you saying Kobe was second to Shaq in the title runs need to open their eyes. Yes Shaq was in his prime while Kobe was still growing up, but Kobe averaged 29 26 32 points, 4-6 assists, and 5-8 rebounds in the 3 title runs. Remember Game 4 of 00 finals when Shaq fouled out? Who carried the team and led them to victory in OT at I think 22 years old? Point is Kobe did not just get carried to 3 championships and one championship is not gonna put Lebron over the edge.

JordansBulls
03-30-2009, 08:22 PM
I think he is right. Bottom line is, 3 > 1. No ifs and donts.

Think about this., what if LA wins against Cleveland in the finals.

Kobe would have four rings. LeBron 0, and 0-2 in championships.

What does him having 3 rings to 1 mean? John Havlicek has 8 rings and was a superstar and top 15 player ever but he ain't considered better than Magic.

Tony Parker has 3 rings and a finals mvp, does that make him better than Garnett who has 1 ring and mvp?

Notice I use guys who are actual stars.

Kenny
03-30-2009, 08:35 PM
Kobe won 3 nba titles and has 0 finals mvp.. Whst does that tell ya.. Kobe hasnt won since Lebron entered the league either.

Lebron23
03-30-2009, 08:54 PM
How many Finals MVP does Kobe Bryant won in his 13th seasons in the NBA?

RealistRocket34
03-30-2009, 08:57 PM
How many Finals MVP does Kobe Bryant won in his 13th seasons in the NBA?
Never knew you posted here, It's iTruWarrior from ISH. Mac is not a point-f ;)

Anways, It would have to take LeBron at least a title to surpass Kobe. Finals MVP or none.

bostncelts34
03-30-2009, 09:03 PM
trust me, i think lebron will go down as one of top players of all time (ahead of kobe). But NO, one year of great success does not succeed 13 seasons of dominance. Yes, he didnt win a title without shaq. But regardless, he won 3. No one wins a chip' by them selves. Duncan had help, shaq had help, kobe had help, lebron has help. and so on..

p.s. Mark this as my FIRST time ever defending kobe, seeing as i AM a celtics fan and i do like lebron alot. Just dont agree with this.

Lebron23
03-30-2009, 09:07 PM
Never knew you posted here, It's iTruWarrior from ISH. Mac is not a point-f ;)

Anways, It would have to take LeBron at least a title to surpass Kobe. Finals MVP or none.

Even if LeBron wins the NBA Finals MVP and Regular Season MVP. Kobe still have a better career than LeBron because of his longevity.


But to say that Kobe Bryant was the no.1 reason that the Lakers won 3 NBA Championships is not fair because we all know that Shaq averaged historical numbers in the 2000, 2001 and 2002 NBA Finals. ( Most Dominant Performance by a Center in the NBA Finals)

Kobe Bryant's Finals Stats are not that impressive, and he was also the no.1 reason why the Pistons defeated the Lakers in the 2004 NBA Finals because he wanted to take away the spotlight from Shaquille O'Neal.

Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, James Worthy, Clyde Drexler, Kevin Mchale, Julius Erving, and John Havlicek, those guys won an NBA Championship as the 2nd or 3rd scoring option of their respective teams.

I don't think you can compare them to the Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Bill Russell because they never won an NBA Championship as the best player on their team.

Hawkeye15
03-30-2009, 09:22 PM
oh goodie. This is just as surprising as tuning into ESPN in a mid week February, and Duke being on.
I will say this, Kobe has 3 rings, but LeBron would be up 1-0 in rings where you were actually the best player on you're team. And Kobe, with a FAR better supporting cast would have been unable to unseat the young man many think has taken his place as the best player in the world. A lot has to happen for that, the Lakers could just as easily win it all.

superkegger
03-30-2009, 09:23 PM
One MVP, Finals MVP and an NBA title wouldn't make LeBron's career better, at this point. Kobe has had a phenomenal career. Like him or not, what he has accomplished is no small feat. And the fact that he's been to the Finals 5 times, won 3 (in a row), no matter the circumstances, is ridiculously impressive. Not many guys have been to the Finals 5 times, as the focal point, or even as the second banana, or hell even 3rd option. How people can criticize Kobe for winning 3 titles with shaq, with Shaq being the Finals MVP and being utterly dominant, and the criticize Kobe for being selfish is plain stupid.
I'm wandering off point though.

Look, if Lebron does those 3 things, it would be a great feat. It would surely cement his status as the best player in the game right now. But careers taken as a whole, it would certainly not make his better than Kobe's. When all said and done and when they both retire, will LeBron be considered better than Kobe? It's quite likely. But after this season, there is no way that you could say LeBron's career is better. He's the best player in the game regardless, but he doesn't and wouldn't have the better career.

Goon.Weezy
03-30-2009, 09:24 PM
kobe is better and will always be

Hawkeye15
03-30-2009, 09:27 PM
Those of you saying Kobe was second to Shaq in the title runs need to open their eyes. Yes Shaq was in his prime while Kobe was still growing up, but Kobe averaged 29 26 32 points, 4-6 assists, and 5-8 rebounds in the 3 title runs. Remember Game 4 of 00 finals when Shaq fouled out? Who carried the team and led them to victory in OT at I think 22 years old? Point is Kobe did not just get carried to 3 championships and one championship is not gonna put Lebron over the edge.

Remember when Shaq was so dominant, that the other team's ENTIRE defense was built to stop him, and his all star SG was able to look like the hero because all the attention was on him? Oh wait, was that Wade? Kobe? Both?
Face it Laker fans, this is not supposed to be mean. Kobe Bryant is 0-1 in the finals as the best player and leader of his team, just like LeBron James. Kobe is 3-1 in finals in which his big man was the most dominant center in 15 years. I do not care what his stats were. Kobe is a great, great, player, but he was far more replaceable to the Lakers rings than Shaq was.

Lebron23
03-30-2009, 09:29 PM
Shaq's 3peat Finals Stats

2000 Finals

38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.67 bpg 61.1 FG%

2001 Finals

33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.40 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2002 Finals

36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg, 59.5 FG%

Kobe's 3peat Finals Stats

2000 Finals

15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.00 spg, 36.7 FG%

2001 Finals

24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.40 spg, 41.5 FG%

2002 Finals

26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3, 1.50 spg, 52.9 FG%

That's why Shaq is the best player in the Post Jordan Era. Just look at his stats in the NBA Finals.

EHL
03-30-2009, 09:32 PM
Shaq's 3peat Finals Stats

2000 Finals

38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.67 bpg 61.1 FG%

2001 Finals

33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.40 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2002 Finals

36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg, 59.5 FG%

Kobe's 3peat Finals Stats

2000 Finals

15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.00 spg, 36.7 FG%

2001 Finals

24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.40 spg, 41.5 FG%

2002 Finals

26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3, 1.50 spg, 52.9 FG%


Check their Western Conference Finals stats and you'll see that the discrepancy is not as bad.



(FYI* Many people consider the Western Conference Finals were the real test for the Lakers since they play the best teams eg: Portland and Sacramento)

mfb_lt1birdman
03-30-2009, 09:38 PM
I will go on record saying the cavs will not win it this year.

However if they win I feel Lebron is still not to Kobe's level from a career standpoint. It will have been one of the greatest individual seasons ever though without a doubt.

Kobe has put up amazing numbers for about 10 seasons now as well as been pretty darn good in the playoffs. It shows his relentless training and ability to stay healthy and play through darn near anything as a top player in the game. Lebron needs to show this for several more seasons and add at least 2 rings to his resume to be on par.

Everybody is so ready to proclaim him as one of the greatest ever but you have to prove you can last for a career. Remember Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, even Tmac. All these guys had the ability to go down as great but one unfortunate injury and poof, they are all but forgotten.

I do feel Lebron will eventually surpass Kobe which is saying a lot seeing as though Kobe will probably go down as a top 3 all time scorer, at least 4 rings, an MVP, perennial all Defensive player, scoring champ, etc,etc. But he needs to show the longevity and have a few rings on his fingers to get there.

Hawkeye15
03-30-2009, 09:39 PM
Check their Western Conference Finals stats and you'll see that the discrepancy is not as bad.



(FYI* Many people consider the Western Conference Finals were the real test for the Lakers since they play the best teams eg: Portland and Sacramento)

You can run any kind of Clintonian math you want, the fact is, defenses, and especially the ones that saw him often, ie, the west, designed their defense to let ANYONE beat them outside Shaq. Kobe, then Wade years later, was the benefactor of this. That is the simple fact. I don't care about stats. Shaq had more influence on a game that anyone since Jordan. Period. End of discussion. Kobe was more replaceable in a heartbeat than Shaquille O'Neal

_KB24_
03-30-2009, 09:45 PM
His season will be like Kobe's last year.
Season MVP, All NBA First And All NBA First Defense
Lose to the Finals to Kobe
Kobe- 4th ring and Finals MVP.

Sorry but LeBron will have to accomplish a lot more and maybe in 8-9 years we can compare. But its kind of hard to compare to one of the greatest, if not greatest of all time.

Lebron23
03-30-2009, 09:48 PM
If Kobe wins another NBA Championship Ring. He would surpass Malone, West, and Barkley in the All time Rankings

lakers4sho
03-30-2009, 09:48 PM
Except for the fact that he is atrocious defensively. But hey, nobody cares about defense so it's all good.

and Pau Gasol = Laker supporting cast, right ;)

Hawkeye15
03-30-2009, 09:48 PM
His season will be like Kobe's last year.
Season MVP, All NBA First And All NBA First Defense
Lose to the Finals to Kobe
Kobe- 4th ring and Finals MVP.

Sorry but LeBron will have to accomplish a lot more and maybe in 8-9 years we can compare. But its kind of hard to compare to one of the greatest, if not greatest of all time.


really? Wow. I agree that LeBron, while I think he is a better player today, still has to get a few years under his belt to be compared to a top 20 player ever. But Kobe even in the argument for greatest player ever? Really? Did you go there?

bostncelts34
03-30-2009, 09:50 PM
His season will be like Kobe's last year.
Season MVP, All NBA First And All NBA First Defense
Lose to the Finals to Kobe
Kobe- 4th ring and Finals MVP.

Sorry but LeBron will have to accomplish a lot more and maybe in 8-9 years we can compare. But its kind of hard to compare to one of the greatest, if not greatest of all time.

ummm so by this.. it means lebron will lose to the celtics? just like kobe did? good logic. wow. lol

Kovw perhaps the greatest all time? Your joking right? hes ONE of the best yes, but in NO way shape or form IMO would i ever put him at #1. Id take Jordan,russell,bird,wilt anyday. Not to mention maybe shaqs amazing career.

Chronz
03-30-2009, 09:53 PM
Yes if he does all that this year then it will go down as the greatest individual season in the history of the league. Definitely put him above Kobe at the same stage





Except for the fact that he is atrocious defensively. But hey, nobody cares about defense so it's all good.

Ask Boozer, Duncan, and KG what they think about Pau's defense.

EHL
03-30-2009, 10:03 PM
You can run any kind of Clintonian math you want, the fact is, defenses, and especially the ones that saw him often, ie, the west, designed their defense to let ANYONE beat them outside Shaq. Kobe, then Wade years later, was the benefactor of this. That is the simple fact.l

Benefactor of what?


You do know that Wade and Kobe had season high in scoring as soon as Shaq left town, right? I dont buy this non sense talk that talented players like Wade and Kobe only benefited from Shaq

kswissdaf
03-30-2009, 10:11 PM
Thing about Kobe's rings is that he wasnt the man on his team he was a nice second option

ragee
03-30-2009, 10:17 PM
Until he wins 3 he won't be compared to Kobe's career.
3 > 1

That's how it goes.

I think 1>3 when you are the one responsible for transforming your team from a lottery one to a champion... Let's face it, Kobe is not the one responsible for the 3 rings... The reason he has 3 was because no one can stop Shaq during those time..

prash
03-30-2009, 10:31 PM
Kobe would've won exactly ZERO championships if that Shaq guy wasn't clogging up the lane for 28ppg a night.

So Co Jo
03-30-2009, 10:33 PM
if lebron wins it all then yes.. the 6 years lebrons been in matched those first 6 years of kobe would be better... ever since kobe has been the leader he hasnt won a chip

cmstophe
03-30-2009, 10:53 PM
Thats understandable, but lets keep in mind that Kobe is not the primary reason why he got those rings. I hate to bring this up but its true.


If Lebron wins this year with his cast (Compared to that of the 3 Peat Lakers) I think its undeniable that Lebron has been much more successful than Kobe (In regards to leading a team as the #1 guy)


Agree?

Why do you "hate to bring this up"? You're not a Kobe fan, right? You're a LAKERS FAN, so you shouldn't care how much Kobe contributed to those rings. Some of you "Lakers fans" crack me up. You guys defend Kobe harder than you defend your home town team. Insane.


I will go on record saying the cavs will not win it this year.

Grats man you went out on limb on *checks date* March 30th 2009 before the playoffs have even started and said that one team will not win, with 16 playoff teams you should be in good shape. Way to go out on limb bro!

tdunk21
03-30-2009, 10:55 PM
after shaq left lakers....lakers team could hardly make it through the first round except 2008 until lakers traded for gasol...this is lakers playoff history after shaq left...and also lakers failed to make it to the playoffs in 2005......so this makes it clear that kobe cant lead a team all by himself without another superstar...am not sayin that lebron is better than kobe at this time of his career.... ..but i am saying kobe is not a leader like lebron

2008 -- defeated Denver, 4-0, first round
defeated Utah, 4-2, conference semifinals
defeated San Antonio, 4-1, conference finals

2007 -- lost to Phoenix, 4-1

2006 -- lost to Phoenix, 4-3, first round

2004 -- defeated Houston, 4-1, first round
defeated San Antonio, 4-2, conference semifinals
defeated Minnesota, 4-2, conference finals
lost to Detroit, 4-1, NBA Finals

lebron will eventually get there....but a little bit sooner than kobe...

Hawkeye15
03-30-2009, 10:57 PM
Benefactor of what?


You do know that Wade and Kobe had season high in scoring as soon as Shaq left town, right? I dont buy this non sense talk that talented players like Wade and Kobe only benefited from Shaq

nice job cutting my statement off. I am not calling either worthless. By no means. Kobe is a great, great player. So is Wade. But the fact is, Shaq was more important to his team than either of them. There is no debating that. At all.

still1ballin
03-30-2009, 10:57 PM
LeBron won't win Finals MVP

Hawkize31
03-30-2009, 11:12 PM
I like Lebron way more than I like Kobe, but right now Kobe has rings, as in multiple rings. Lebron will probably retire with multiple rings too, and I think he will have a better career than Kobe when they are both done, but right now Kobe has been more impressive so far.

Lakersfan2483
03-30-2009, 11:17 PM
Would you consider Lebron as already having a much more impressive career than Kobe?


Sit with me and reflect for a minute. Lebron is having a statistically jaw dropping season. His PeR is the highest since a player from Chicago named Michael Jordan laced them up. He is most likely to receive the NBA MVP along with NBA All Defense and All NBA 1st team recognitions. And he's going to lead the Cavs with the most wins in a season in Cleveland history (along with possibly the second best home record in history) Now those are petty accomplishments you say, and I agree, but what if...Lebron also wins the Finals MVP and leads the Cleveland Cavaliers to a title?


Question: With those feat in mind, would you consider his accomplishments for the past 6 seasons a much more remarkable than that of Kobe?

If Lebron were to accomplish all of that this season (I don't think it will happen) his career accomplishments would be on par with Bryant's and he would be a leg up in terms of winning a title as the "main" player on the team.

Hawkeye15
03-30-2009, 11:24 PM
Would you consider Lebron as already having a much more impressive career than Kobe?


Sit with me and reflect for a minute. Lebron is having a statistically jaw dropping season. His PeR is the highest since a player from Chicago named Michael Jordan laced them up. He is most likely to receive the NBA MVP along with NBA All Defense and All NBA 1st team recognitions. And he's going to lead the Cavs with the most wins in a season in Cleveland history (along with possibly the second best home record in history) Now those are petty accomplishments you say, and I agree, but what if...Lebron also wins the Finals MVP and leads the Cleveland Cavaliers to a title?


Question: With those feat in mind, would you consider his accomplishments for the past 6 seasons a much more remarkable than that of Kobe?

If Lebron were to accomplish all of that this season (I don't think it will happen) his career accomplishments would be on par with Bryant's and he would be a leg up in terms of winning a title as the "main" player on the team.


good post. Kobe has an unreal resume for being 30. But LeBron is going to have a better career, barring injury. It is nice to see a non biased Laker fan opinion.

EHL
03-30-2009, 11:27 PM
Why do you "hate to bring this up"? You're not a Kobe fan, right? You're a LAKERS FAN, so you shouldn't care how much Kobe contributed to those rings. Some of you "Lakers fans" crack me up. You guys defend Kobe harder than you defend your home town team. Insane.

I hate to bring it because its been debated quite a a hundred times with the thread ending up in the same result(s)

EHL
03-30-2009, 11:41 PM
nice job cutting my statement off. I am not calling either worthless. By no means. Kobe is a great, great player. So is Wade. But the fact is, Shaq was more important to his team than either of them. There is no debating that. At all.

I do agree that Shaq was a bigger part of success.

Jaji
03-30-2009, 11:51 PM
Can you imagine Shaq in his prime on the current Cavs roster? They'd be unbeatable. Bottom line is Kobe would not have 1 title if it weren't for Shaq. That being said, Kobe is the better all around player right now. LeBron is still young though and when (not if) he starts winning titles it will be squarely on him, something Kobe can't claim yet. Kobe reminds me of Jordan minus the killer instinct. LeBron reminds me of a more athletic Magic. They are w/o a doubt the premier players in the league. 1a and 1b.

EHL
03-30-2009, 11:54 PM
Kobe reminds me of Jordan minus the killer instinct.

Kobe has the killer instinct like MJ.



Kobe however does not have the same decision making that MJ had when he was still playing.


This is the reason why Jordan shoots an efficient 50% from the floor while Kobe still struggles to identify when to take over and when to get his teammates involved.



IMO, Kobe does not have the feel for a game like MJ had.

Vinny642
03-30-2009, 11:57 PM
LeBron won't win Finals MVP

I kno It'll be CP pretty easily:p

what54!?
03-31-2009, 12:03 AM
nope kobe still has more rings, scoring titles, all-star mvps and other things. Lebron has only been in the NBA 6 years and probably have all the records when its all said and done for him. But kobe has done more

Jaji
03-31-2009, 12:35 AM
Kobe has the killer instinct like MJ.



Kobe however does not have the same decision making that MJ had when he was still playing.


This is the reason why Jordan shoots an efficient 50% from the floor while Kobe still struggles to identify when to take over and when to get his teammates involved.



IMO, Kobe does not have the feel for a game like MJ had.

Can't have killer instinct with no ring (by himself). Killer instinct means putting opponents away no matter what. Kobe hasn't put anyone away without Shaq. I mean he hasn't closed the deal, something Jordan was almost guaranteed to do.

EHL
03-31-2009, 12:38 AM
Can't have killer instinct with no ring (by himself). Killer instinct means putting opponents away no matter what.

Championship rings are not won individually. I dont really know what you're implying here.


Now if you want to argue that last year's Lakers are better than those of the Three Peat Bulls, goodluck on that.

G-Funk
03-31-2009, 12:42 AM
Thats understandable, but lets keep in mind that Kobe is not the primary reason why he got those rings. I hate to bring this up but its true.


If Lebron wins this year with his cast (Compared to that of the 3 Peat Lakers) I think its undeniable that Lebron has been much more successful than Kobe (In regards to leading a team as the #1 guy)


Agree?

Stop pretending to be Lakers fan!

Jaji
03-31-2009, 12:47 AM
Championship rings are not won individually. I dont really know what you're implying here.


Now if you want to argue that last year's Lakers are better than those of the Three Peat Bulls, goodluck on that.

Nope, the Bulls had Jordan.

Fireworld
03-31-2009, 12:49 AM
Laker here choosing already better. LB was the go to guy from the get go. Kobe had to wait, but if he had the chance, they would be about the same except the fact KB has 3 rings and one on the way...

EHL
03-31-2009, 12:52 AM
Stop pretending to be Lakers fan!

Why? Because I call it as it is? Because, I criticize Kobe?


You got me confused from a Kobe fan bro.

IndiansFan337
03-31-2009, 12:56 AM
Would you consider Lebron as already having a much more impressive career than Kobe?


Sit with me and reflect for a minute. Lebron is having a statistically jaw dropping season. His PeR is the highest since a player from Chicago named Michael Jordan laced them up. He is most likely to receive the NBA MVP along with NBA All Defense and All NBA 1st team recognitions. And he's going to lead the Cavs with the most wins in a season in Cleveland history (along with possibly the second best home record in history) Now those are petty accomplishments you say, and I agree, but what if...Lebron also wins the Finals MVP and leads the Cleveland Cavaliers to a title?


Question: With those feat in mind, would you consider his accomplishments for the past 6 seasons a much more remarkable than that of Kobe?
Certainly not. But he would be on his way to possibly eclipsing him. We all know that Kobe had Shaq for his 3 titles. But LeBron being the head honcho for 1 title is not > Kobe tagging along with Shaq for 3.

tkshy
03-31-2009, 01:09 AM
Lebron should shout his mouth, stop stealing MJ's intro with the powder, and stop taking pictures of his teammates and himself pregame. Yes he is AMAZING, but no rings = no reason to be such a show boat. WIN SOMETHING then compare yourself to the greats of this game. Larry, Magic passed it to Jordan, and he passed it to Kobe. Lebron has a lot to do before Kobe can pass it to him.

WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP or it means nothing.

Gro_Da_Fro_Back
03-31-2009, 01:11 AM
11! People have said that his career would be already better???! WTF, get a clue.

_KB24_
03-31-2009, 01:15 AM
Can't have killer instinct with no ring (by himself). Killer instinct means putting opponents away no matter what. Kobe hasn't put anyone away without Shaq. I mean he hasn't closed the deal, something Jordan was almost guaranteed to do.

I know I'm young but wasn't it also 5 on 5 back then?

No disrespect to Jordan, but if Kobe winning his rings with Shaq doesn't count,
then Jordan with Pippen shouldn't count.

EHL
03-31-2009, 01:28 AM
No disrespect to Jordan, but if Kobe winning his rings with Shaq doesn't count,
then Jordan with Pippen shouldn't count.

Of course...

Jaji
03-31-2009, 02:30 AM
Lebron should shout his mouth, stop stealing MJ's intro with the powder, and stop taking pictures of his teammates and himself pregame. Yes he is AMAZING, but no rings = no reason to be such a show boat. WIN SOMETHING then compare yourself to the greats of this game. Larry, Magic passed it to Jordan, and he passed it to Kobe. Lebron has a lot to do before Kobe can pass it to him.

WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP or it means nothing.

LeBron is only 24. No one has done what LeBron has done by age 24. He will win some titles, he has plenty of time to do that. Jordan didn't win his first title with the Bulls until he was 28. Meanwhile LeBron has a good chance to win his first title this year. I think people forget how young LeBron is because he's been one of the best players in the league since he was 18. With the right team around him, LeBron still has time to win 10 titles before its all said and done.

Jaji
03-31-2009, 02:33 AM
I know I'm young but wasn't it also 5 on 5 back then?

No disrespect to Jordan, but if Kobe winning his rings with Shaq doesn't count,
then Jordan with Pippen shouldn't count.

Come on you know Jordan was the 'it' factor behind every Chicago championship. The Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, a duo, 1a and 1b would describe it best. The Bulls had Jordan. 1. Pippen was second fiddle. Sure its 5 on 5 but when 1 of those guys happens to be the best player ever it certainly sways the favor to one side.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-31-2009, 03:02 AM
Kobe would've won exactly ZERO championships if that Shaq guy wasn't clogging up the lane for 28ppg a night.

I want to know how you know this! You dont

Lets start Kobe's career all over than without Shaq. Lets say they started to build around an 18 year old Kobe Bryant. Lets say they used all their money to surround him with very good talent but still have him as the best player by the age of 20. You dont think he might have gotten some rings? You dont think his stats would be pissing on the stats he did put up while subjugating his game for Shaq for the sake of the team?

The Lakers rebuilt from scratch 4 years ago with Kobe at the age of 26. After 3 years he got them back to the finals. He took a back seat for 8 YEARS OF HIS CAREER His most athletic years were taken from him because he had to spread the floor for Shaq. He could have really wowed you with his stats and shooting % if he could constantly live at the rim. I'm pretty sure Kobe with fresh legs, great scoring ability, and ridiculous defense would have been able to lead a team to at least one ring if not more.

I find it hilarious that people will take all credit away from Kobe for the rings. Then the same person will say he does not have great stats. Thus taking away all credit from Kobe for taking a back seat to a player who was in his prime. You cant have it both ways. Either you give Kobe credit for winning 3 rings or you admit he probably would have been putting up numbers close to Michael on per game averages. Maybe not as efficient, but his stat line would look a lot better than it does now.

So what accomplishment would you like to piss on? His rings he piggy backed Shaq for, or his unimpressive stat line? :eyebrow:

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 03:07 AM
I want to know how you know this! You dont

Lets start Kobe's career all over than without Shaq. Lets say they started to build around an 18 year old Kobe Bryant. Lets say they used all their money to surround him with very good talent but still have him as the best player by the age of 20. You dont think he might have gotten some rings? You dont think his stats would be pissing on the stats he did put up while subjugating his game for Shaq for the sake of the team?

The Lakers rebuilt from scratch 4 years ago with Kobe at the age of 26. After 3 years he got them back to the finals. He took a back seat for 8 YEARS OF HIS CAREER His most athletic years were taken from him because he had to spread the floor for Shaq. He could have really wowed you with his stats and shooting % if he could constantly live at the rim. I'm pretty sure Kobe with fresh legs, great scoring ability, and ridiculous defense would have been able to lead a team to at least one ring if not more.

I find it hilarious that people will take all credit away from Kobe for the rings. Then the same person will say he does not have great stats. Thus taking away all credit from Kobe for taking a back seat to a player who was in his prime. You cant have it both ways. Either you give Kobe credit for winning 3 rings or you admit he probably would have been putting up numbers close to Michael on per game averages. Maybe not as efficient, but his stat line would look a lot better than it does now.

So what accomplishment would you like to piss on? His rings he piggy back Shaq for, or his unimpressive stat line? :eyebrow:

Heck, the Lakers were even considering trading Shaq in 2001 to accommodate Kobe. They thought and knew he was that good. Bryant's prime years in terms of overall play, statistics, and athleticism were taken away...luckily, not by injury, but for the sake of winning championships.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-31-2009, 03:17 AM
Heck, the Lakers were even considering trading Shaq in 2001 to accommodate Kobe. They thought and knew he was that good. Bryant's prime years in terms of overall play, statistics, and athleticism were taken away...luckily, not by injury, but for the sake of winning championships.

Very true. But people will want to think he rode Shaqs coat tail, but wont even think, hey, maybe the Lakers would have used Shaqs 25 million to get Kobe teamed up with some other great players through free agency or the lottery, which they probably would have been in Kobe's first two years.

They just think Kobe would have still been playing with Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Sumaki Walker starting at center. Sorry dummies, it would not have worked that way. He would have had much better supporting players around him. Only change would have been they would have been built solely around Kobe.

And seeing what Kobe can do with even the slightest amount of talent around him, ala first 8 years with Shaq, or last year before and even with Gasol. And this years team, I'm pretty sure Kobe could have lead them to a title by now as the main man.

But I would love to hear some educated basketball fans tell me why he would not have been able to :eyebrow:

Lakersfan2483
03-31-2009, 03:22 AM
LeBron is only 24. No one has done what LeBron has done by age 24. He will win some titles, he has plenty of time to do that. Jordan didn't win his first title with the Bulls until he was 28. Meanwhile LeBron has a good chance to win his first title this year. I think people forget how young LeBron is because he's been one of the best players in the league since he was 18. With the right team around him, LeBron still has time to win 10 titles before its all said and done.

I hope you are joking with that last statement, you do know how hard it is to win just one championship right?

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 03:27 AM
[/B]

I hope you are joking with that last statement, you do know how hard it is to win just one championship right?

I know. 10 titles is pretty ridiculous. Considering he is turning 25 at the end of this year, he would probably have to win the next 10 titles in a row because he would be too old to carry a squad at the age of 35.

Lakersfan2483
03-31-2009, 03:30 AM
Very true. But people will want to think he rode Shaqs coat tail, but wont even think, hey, maybe the Lakers would have used Shaqs 25 million to get Kobe teamed up with some other great players through free agency or the lottery, which they probably would have been in Kobe's first two years.

They just think Kobe would have still been playing with Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Sumaki Walker starting at center. Sorry dummies, it would not have worked that way. He would have had much better supporting players around him. Only change would have been they would have been built solely around Kobe.

And seeing what Kobe can do with even the slightest amount of talent around him, ala first 8 years with Shaq, or last year before and even with Gasol. And this years team, I'm pretty sure Kobe could have lead them to a title by now as the main man.

But I would love to hear some educated basketball fans tell me why he would not have been able to :eyebrow:

Very good pts, I think had the Lakers organization decided to build around Kobe early on they still could have won a couple of titles. Kobe has proven that if you give him some talent, he will win games during the regular season and the postseason. Last year was his first year actually having "adequate" help in terms of competing for a title since Shaq's departure.

Lakersfan2483
03-31-2009, 03:34 AM
I know. 10 titles is pretty ridiculous. Considering he is turning 25 at the end of this year, he would probably have to win the next 10 titles in a row because he would be too old to carry a squad at the age of 35.

I just don't think a lot of people are realistic and put a lot of thought into some of the comments they make. It's tough enough to win just one title let alone 10. lol.

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 03:36 AM
I just don't think a lot of people are realistic and put a lot of thought into some of the comments they make. It's tough enough to win just one title let alone 10. lol.

Let alone 10 in a row! :laugh2:

Lakersfan2483
03-31-2009, 03:39 AM
Let alone 10 in a row! :laugh2:

When I read that comment I started to laugh.

Hotone1401
03-31-2009, 07:24 AM
If Lebron wins the MVP, Finals MVP, and the title than YES his career would suprass Kobe's. I'm a die hard Laker fan but let's be real here. Lebron is at this time the superior player in my opinion but that is still debatable I guess. We have the better team and that is why the Lakers will win the title but if Lebron does all that, he will surely pass Kobe at sometime or another and that isn't to say that Kobe isn't an NBA Icon but just that Lebron would end up being a bigger icon and hold a bigger place in history. How many fans (even Laker fans) can honestly say that they truly believe that Kobe will go down as the better player in history after both their careers are over? I know I can't. Lebron is a FREAK of nature and he is the perfect basketball player. He gives you everything you want and he is only getting better. It's just a matter of time before Kobe passes the torch. I hoped that it would be at the time he retires but if Lebron keeps playing like this, I can't really be sure if the torch hasn't been passed already.

prodigy
03-31-2009, 07:39 AM
Would you consider Lebron as already having a much more impressive career than Kobe?


Sit with me and reflect for a minute. Lebron is having a statistically jaw dropping season. His PeR is the highest since a player from Chicago named Michael Jordan laced them up. He is most likely to receive the NBA MVP along with NBA All Defense and All NBA 1st team recognitions. And he's going to lead the Cavs with the most wins in a season in Cleveland history (along with possibly the second best home record in history) Now those are petty accomplishments you say, and I agree, but what if...Lebron also wins the Finals MVP and leads the Cleveland Cavaliers to a title?


Question: With those feat in mind, would you consider his accomplishments for the past 6 seasons a much more remarkable than that of Kobe?


why do people post this crap? your just giving everybody another chace to cut down lebron and the cavs. Kobe been in the leauge longer, and had the most dominant center of all-time on his team.

tjlipford
03-31-2009, 08:07 AM
Kobe is great. But lately Lebron has been playing like a maniac. Also Kobe has LOST his last 2 Finals appearances. Honestly he hasnt played well in his last 2 Finals. I think Kobe needs this ring this year more than Lebron or else he will prove all the doubters are right about him not winning without Shaq. Lebron is a better team player and always will. Kobe is the assassin, the black mamba. He can put up points like crazy, but all around Lebron can do more. As of right now I feel as though Kobe is a little better, but as we all can see Lebron is quickly closing that gap.

One last thing there is 1 TEAM that can beat the Cavs in a 7 game series, not boston anymore (healthy or not), not Orlando (thought they would give us trouble), not San Antonio (too old flat out), definitely not miami, atlanta and any other funny team that yall name. The Lakers and Cavs are the best and we will see who is better between Kobe and Lebron this year in the Finals.

tjlipford
03-31-2009, 08:16 AM
In my opinion if Kobe doesnt win the ring this year it will hurt him. I dont care if he won rings with Shaq cuz any ok player would have won the ring with Shaq in his prime. Also he already had been to the Finals with Orlando and Penny and then after he left LA he won it in Miami with Wade after everybody said he was finished. So lets compare the post Shaq Kobe with Lebron. Also in those Finals Shaq was doubled and triple teamed so stop acting like Kobe put the team on his back like Mike or something. Truth be told Kobe didnt have to do too much in any of those wins (except that game against Indiana when Shaq fouled out). Not taking anything away from Kobe but Shaq was the most dominating player ever. He was too good.

RaysFan
03-31-2009, 09:28 AM
I think he is right. Bottom line is, 3 > 1. No ifs and donts.

Think about this., what if LA wins against Cleveland in the finals.

Kobe would have four rings. LeBron 0, and 0-2 in championships.

Yeah, but Kobe has a much better team and a MUCH better coach. Can someone remind me how Kobe did the 1 year he didn't have Phil Jackson and Shaq? It was ugly in LA.

I would say no. LeBron, IMO, is the best player in the world right now but Kobe's career is still better at this point. In about 6 or 7 years LeBron will likely pass Kobe's in terms of career success but not right now.

Jaji
03-31-2009, 11:10 AM
[/B]

I hope you are joking with that last statement, you do know how hard it is to win just one championship right?

I figured someone would misunderstand that statement. Read it again carefully. With the right players around him (which he clearly doesn't have a dynasty type team around him now) he has enough time to win 10 titles. It only takes 10 years to win 10 titles. I didn't say LeBron will win the next 10 titles. I said he has enough time to. In other words, he's got a lot of playing left to do.

Jaji
03-31-2009, 11:13 AM
When I read that comment I started to laugh.

That's because you didn't read it carefully. I didn't say LeBron would win 10 titles in a row. But he has a better shot of doing that than Kobe seeing how Kobe probably won't play another 10 years.

The point is don't use LeBron's lack of titles against him because he has plenty of time to win one/some.

Lakers4ItAll
03-31-2009, 12:25 PM
So if Lebron made it to the Finals and lost AGAIN what would you all consider him???


I think he is right. Bottom line is, 3 > 1. No ifs and donts.

Think about this., what if LA wins against Cleveland in the finals.

Kobe would have four rings. LeBron 0, and 0-2 in championships.

ottograham14
03-31-2009, 12:55 PM
Benefactor of what?


You do know that Wade and Kobe had season high in scoring as soon as Shaq left town, right? I dont buy this non sense talk that talented players like Wade and Kobe only benefited from Shaq

Wow. I guess that happened because they might have finally become the #1 option on thier team without Shaq. And in 04-05 when Shaq left the Lakers, Kobe did have a season high in scoring. It happened in 05'06 when he averaged 35.4 a game because he jacked up 2,173 shots which is easily 400-500 more shots in one year that he has ever taken in his career.

While yes Wade has had a season high in scoring this year because once again he is the first option on the team and he is also healthy finally this year. 51 games the last 2 years and this year 73, yeah I hope he is having a better season. Also through 73 games this year he has 1,608 FG attempts when the most he had taken in his career before this season was 1,413. So once again I hope your scoring goes up when your taking more shots because you are the #1 option.


So yes Wade and Kobe did not benefactor from Shaq in I guess what you are trying to debate in scoring but when it came to winning championships I'm pretty sure any logical basketball fan would say that they benefactored greatly.

Frezhnitz
03-31-2009, 01:10 PM
hell have to wait when Kobe retires.

WadeCounty
03-31-2009, 01:37 PM
i put no, kobes still better but for all of you guys putting 3>1 rings, yes that is true.. but that isnt the case all the time. So your telling me tony parkers career is much more of a success than that of lebron james?

Illuminati
03-31-2009, 01:51 PM
We will never know becuase the Cavs will not make it to the finals this year.

Cavs = OVERRATTED

lakerboy
03-31-2009, 02:11 PM
double post:)

jskeet23
03-31-2009, 02:19 PM
Lebron should shout his mouth, stop stealing MJ's intro with the powder, and stop taking pictures of his teammates and himself pregame. Yes he is AMAZING, but no rings = no reason to be such a show boat. WIN SOMETHING then compare yourself to the greats of this game. Larry, Magic passed it to Jordan, and he passed it to Kobe. Lebron has a lot to do before Kobe can pass it to him.

WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP or it means nothing.enough said what about dwayne wade people always sleep on this guy

lakerboy
03-31-2009, 02:22 PM
Winning a title is hard. If LBJ wins it this year, he'll be on track to have a better career than Kobe. That's it.

What if it is the other way around.

If Kobe wins the championship this year, I'm almost certain LeBron would never catch him. If we win this year, the Lakers are still going to be championship contenders for the years to come.. Lakers will be there for 3, or 4 more.

Kobe will have 4 championship rings. It's hard to win 1. Chasing 4 would be likely improbable.

This year's playoff is pretty awesome in that sense. It'll dictate a lot about the careers of Kobe and LBJ. If LBJ wins, then he'll most likely have a better career than Kobe. If Kobe wins, LBJ will need to work a lot more.

Derick713
03-31-2009, 02:39 PM
If LeBron wins a title this year coupled with everything you mentioned it wouldn't be as impressive as Shaq's 2000 season in which he won the All-Star Game MVP, NBA MVP, and The Finals MVP. Shaq also won the scoring title and dominated the Finals.

You can compare careers and stats, but Kobe isn't LeBron in the sense that it is easier to build a contender around players like LeBron and Shaq instead of players like D-Wade and Kobe. Kobe had a better team than LeBron last year and he couldn't take the Celtics to seven games. LeBron's team has only added one piece and now they've got the best record in the league. The Cavs lost Szczerbiak, Wallace, West, and maybe a few other players for an extended period of time this season and they still have a better record than the Lakers. Kobe's got Odom and Gasol in their prime while Wallace and Big Z are older and not exactly what they use to be. Delonte West couldn’t even start with the Thunder when he was there.

damkrayzie
03-31-2009, 02:47 PM
no kobe is still better he has 3 rings and lebron hasnt done nothing compared to kobe
hmmm ok^^^

Big Zo
03-31-2009, 02:59 PM
As much as I hate Kobe, right now LeBron ain't got **** on him. Kobe has 3 rings and is the only player we've seen score more than 80 points in a game (There's no video of Wilt's 100 point game). LeBron still has miles to go before he catches Kobe.

cmstophe
03-31-2009, 03:02 PM
We will never know becuase the Cavs will not make it to the finals this year.

Cavs = OVERRATTED

You know you're #1 when the haters come out of the wood work.

WCF23
03-31-2009, 03:10 PM
You can run any kind of Clintonian math you want, the fact is, defenses, and especially the ones that saw him often, ie, the west, designed their defense to let ANYONE beat them outside Shaq. Kobe, then Wade years later, was the benefactor of this. That is the simple fact. I don't care about stats. Shaq had more influence on a game that anyone since Jordan. Period. End of discussion. Kobe was more replaceable in a heartbeat than Shaquille O'Neal

No you didnt, No you didnt?

Did you watch the playoffs that year?

Actually, I know you didnt. That was Wade's world...

Flash didnt play with Diesel anywhere near his prime, and dont try to take anything away from Wade just because Shaq was on the team. So if Kobe was more replaceable than Shaq, you would start a team with Shaq right now over Kobe? FAIL, it took two to tango in LA and man could they dance.

And you even used Shaq and Jordan in the same breath... ugghhh

Derick713
03-31-2009, 03:15 PM
Kobe wasn't the man of those Title Teams. Horry has a ton of rings as well, but you don't say you'd rather have him over LeBron. When Kobe retires I think many will put LeBron over Kobe because his stats will be more impressive and he could have more titles. Kobe has scored a lot and had a few spectacular seasons, but at LeBron’s current pace it's seems more and more likely that LeBron will surpass Kobe. Kobe still has to get out of Shaq's shadow.

Even D-Wade has had more special moments in the playoffs than Kobe. Iverson lead his team to the Finals with less than Kobe has right now. LeBron’s team has a better record than Kobe’s team and LeBron’s had less talent and more injuries on his team.

Chirs Paul should have been the MVP instead of Kobe. Pau Gasol put the Lakers over the top. Chris Paul carried the Hornets.

Derick713
03-31-2009, 03:18 PM
LeBron doesn't have an elite type player in his prime at any position. Mo Williams is a great player the Bucks gave away for a reason. Delonte West was a throw in. Daniel Gibson was a second round pick. Wallace and Big Z are much older and have seen their best days already. Anderson Varejao was a second round pick.

Squad13
03-31-2009, 03:18 PM
LOL @ the Kobe hasn't won by himself, Jesus starting at sg couldn't win with Kobes roster until recently

Smush Parker
Jesus
Puke Walton
Lamar Odom
Kwame "butter fingers" Brown

Kobe has only had a squad capable of winning since last year, they weren't healthy and came together late in the season. Give him a break, is he the greatest of all time? NO. Is he the best we have seen in a long time? Yes. Put the hate aside and enjoy one of the best to ever do it.

Hawkeye15
03-31-2009, 03:27 PM
No you didnt, No you didnt?

Did you watch the playoffs that year?

Actually, I know you didnt. That was Wade's world...

Flash didnt play with Diesel anywhere near his prime, and dont try to take anything away from Wade just because Shaq was on the team. So if Kobe was more replaceable than Shaq, you would start a team with Shaq right now over Kobe? FAIL, it took two to tango in LA and man could they dance.

And you even used Shaq and Jordan in the same breath... ugghhh

I did watch the finals that year. And while Wade was a better player at that time, I once again must bring up the fact that opposing teams designed their defense to stop Shaquille O'Neal, and were willing to deal with the consequences if a perimeter player beat them. Dunks are harder to stop than jumpers and contested drives. Even a 33 year old Shaq was the most physically dominant post player in the NBA. Let me put it another way. Replace Shaq with ANY other center in the NBA that year, Miami does not win it. Wade would not have had the freedom to do what he did. I don't want to take anything away from Miami, and Wade specifically, he was awesome that playoffs, but playing a team that had never been to the finals, with an owner that did nothing but piss the refs off, and an MVP that disappeared from time to time had a little to do with it as well.
Point is, Wade and Kobe benefited more from playing with Shaq than the other way around. And as far as the MJ statement, my point was, Shaq was the most dominant player since Jordan. I am in no way comparing him to Michael. If you read my other posts on these boards, nobody gets that comparison on my watch.

Hawkeye15
03-31-2009, 03:28 PM
and when did I say I would start a team with Shaq over Kobe or Wade right now? FAIL

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 03:36 PM
That's because you didn't read it carefully. I didn't say LeBron would win 10 titles in a row. But he has a better shot of doing that than Kobe seeing how Kobe probably won't play another 10 years.

The point is don't use LeBron's lack of titles against him because he has plenty of time to win one/some.

Don't post that idea when it clearly won't happen (10 titles? are you kidding? the NBA wouldn't even be able to fix it that much for their golden boy). Just say that Lebron has a lot of time left in the league. Much simpler and less room for misunderstanding.

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 03:36 PM
i put no, kobes still better but for all of you guys putting 3>1 rings, yes that is true.. but that isnt the case all the time. So your telling me tony parkers career is much more of a success than that of lebron james?

No, but we aren't talking about "Tony Parker." We are talking about the likes of Kobe Bryant.

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 03:42 PM
You can run any kind of Clintonian math you want, the fact is, defenses, and especially the ones that saw him often, ie, the west, designed their defense to let ANYONE beat them outside Shaq. Kobe, then Wade years later, was the benefactor of this. That is the simple fact. I don't care about stats. Shaq had more influence on a game that anyone since Jordan. Period. End of discussion. Kobe was more replaceable in a heartbeat than Shaquille O'Neal

Absolutely not true at all. Watch any Western Conference series and you would see that even when Shaq was doubled after the allowance of Zone D, the other team would only bring their perimeter point or small forward to do the double. What does that all mean, Hawkeye?!?! They STILL had their shooting guard keeping a close eye on Bryant. Heck, Bryant was doubled many times himself. Shaq helped the likes of Horry, Fox, Shaw, Fisher, etc. Kobe was still a main target on the opposing team and they still kept a close eye on them. I don't know why you don't understand this either. Look at it from a coaches perspective. If a team has two superstars then you would never double from the position of the other superstar...And those coaches understood this and did exactly that. They would double off of Horry's man or Harper's man. Kobe was still guarded (heavily) by the opposition, thus making your theory ridiculous.

mitch91
03-31-2009, 03:49 PM
i dnt want to vote any, nno lebron still has alot more to do to catch up to kobe but i dont want to call kobe and icon lol

Hawkeye15
03-31-2009, 04:49 PM
Absolutely not true at all. Watch any Western Conference series and you would see that even when Shaq was doubled after the allowance of Zone D, the other team would only bring their perimeter point or small forward to do the double. What does that all mean, Hawkeye?!?! They STILL had their shooting guard keeping a close eye on Bryant. Heck, Bryant was doubled many times himself. Shaq helped the likes of Horry, Fox, Shaw, Fisher, etc. Kobe was still a main target on the opposing team and they still kept a close eye on them. I don't know why you don't understand this either. Look at it from a coaches perspective. If a team has two superstars then you would never double from the position of the other superstar...And those coaches understood this and did exactly that. They would double off of Horry's man or Harper's man. Kobe was still guarded (heavily) by the opposition, thus making your theory ridiculous.

I have watched them. The defense is keyed on Shaquille O'Neal. You can respond anyway you want, that is what I saw. And that is what NBA coaches did. You as a coach should know that a defense that can be run against a dominant post player with a great off guard, is to follow the guard around, then pack it in and make passes coming in difficult. If the ball rotates to Kobe, you send someone. But you DO NOT leave Shaq single covered when the ball is on his side of the floor. Ever. No, they didn't leave Kobe. My point was, when MJ played, he had 2 guys on him when he didn't have the ball, 3 when he did at times. You had to pick you're poison. Kobe shooting a 18' footer has a worse chance than letting Shaq catch within 8 feet.

Hawkeye15
03-31-2009, 04:53 PM
Hence why guys like Fisher, Shaw, etc, are considered great role players. They saw a ton of wide open shots.

Hawkeye15
03-31-2009, 04:55 PM
one last thing on this, of course you don't "leave" Kobe. My point is, someone like him can't be guarded one on one. If he didn't have Shaq, what you get is what happened last year. He is now the main focus, and is taken out of long stretches of the game. Beginning to understand yet??

king4day
03-31-2009, 04:56 PM
I put no for now since he hasn't been in the league as long.
In the end, he may end up better, but right now, Kobe just has a lot more years on him.

Chronz
03-31-2009, 07:46 PM
Absolutely not true at all. Watch any Western Conference series and you would see that even when Shaq was doubled after the allowance of Zone D, the other team would only bring their perimeter point or small forward to do the double. What does that all mean, Hawkeye?!?! They STILL had their shooting guard keeping a close eye on Bryant. Heck, Bryant was doubled many times himself. Shaq helped the likes of Horry, Fox, Shaw, Fisher, etc. Kobe was still a main target on the opposing team and they still kept a close eye on them. I don't know why you don't understand this either. Look at it from a coaches perspective. If a team has two superstars then you would never double from the position of the other superstar...And those coaches understood this and did exactly that. They would double off of Horry's man or Harper's man. Kobe was still guarded (heavily) by the opposition, thus making your theory ridiculous.

Its still allows Kobe the freedom to capitalize on the open lanes created from double teams and collapsing defenses. And double teaming with a PG never stopped Shaq, teams rarely committed weak doubles. The fact that Shaq was occupying 2 defenders allowed Kobe to play 4 on 3 at the least. From a coaches perspective you stopped Shaq at all costs, which usually meant providing hard doubles (with their bigmen) even Shaq in his diminished state in Miami forced Dallas to trap with 2 7footers, (Thats when Wade told him if they continued to play him this way he was going to look to take over).

Kobe never had to deal with the immense amount of defensive pressure that Bron has had to at such a young age. Like you said doubling off of Horry's man meant 2 bigs were occupied, thats pure heaven for any slasher. Kobe saw double teams, but teams were never geared towards stopping him as the first priority. Its not an overwhelming benefit, but neither is the idea that Kobe stats would be incredible without Shaq around (Were they any better the year Shaq left to Miami?). And zones have been around forever, they were just neatly disguised with intricate rotations. The Celtics in the 80's and Knicks in the 90's were masters at switching and recovering, in fact (according to the coaching staff) the sole reason the Lakers are zoning up in their man to man sets is due solely to the fact that they arent smart enough to pick up proper rotations. Zones leave you vulnerable from 3pt shooting and on the offensive glass when they miss, people really overstate the effects zone have had on the league.

Shaq benefited from Kobe as well, they made eachother better that really all there is to it, I never really understood the point of saying one couldnt win without the other when no player ever won a chip without competent teammates.

VivaLaShark
03-31-2009, 08:27 PM
True talk of rings doesn't matter in who is better... John Salley has 10 and hes not better than anyone. Brian Scalabrine has one and the only reason he is on the Celts is because his contract is league minimum. Bottom line though you cant compare their careers until both are done. Thus far it is obvious that Kobe Bryant has had a better career than LeBron. Just look at the achievements of both and you will see that.

Lakersfan2483
03-31-2009, 09:56 PM
That's because you didn't read it carefully. I didn't say LeBron would win 10 titles in a row. But he has a better shot of doing that than Kobe seeing how Kobe probably won't play another 10 years.

The point is don't use LeBron's lack of titles against him because he has plenty of time to win one/some.

He's not winning 10 titles and I know exactly what you meant.

JordansBulls
03-31-2009, 11:36 PM
john salley has 10 and hes not better than anyone.

wtf!!!

_KB24_
04-01-2009, 08:46 PM
It is really funny for all of you who say that Lebron has accomplished more than Kobe. Lets see if he can lead the Cavs to atleast 1 title let alone 10. As of right now, Kobe and Wade have much more impressive careers and are winners. If Lebron can win one this year, than talk whatever you want.

Hawkeye15
04-01-2009, 09:08 PM
It is really funny for all of you who say that Lebron has accomplished more than Kobe. Lets see if he can lead the Cavs to atleast 1 title let alone 10. As of right now, Kobe and Wade have much more impressive careers and are winners. If Lebron can win one this year, than talk whatever you want.

For the life of me, I can't remember the connection between them. Something about a 7'1", 330 center who has dominted for 14 seasons. His name is slipping my memory

_KB24_
04-02-2009, 08:07 PM
For the life of me, I can't remember the connection between them. Something about a 7'1", 330 center who has dominted for 14 seasons. His name is slipping my memory

Well you should check your memory than you sarcastic SOB. Just because they had Shaq doesn't mean that they didn't play and win. I really do feel sorry for haters like you because that all you can do, hate.

last stand
04-02-2009, 08:12 PM
lets wait till june okay the playoffs haven't even started

what if both of them get knocked out round 1

joeboow90
04-02-2009, 08:13 PM
Lebron is definately on his way 2 becoming a legend but Kobe has done it for a lot longer than lebron at that high level of play

Hawkeye15
04-02-2009, 09:35 PM
Well you should check your memory than you sarcastic SOB. Just because they had Shaq doesn't mean that they didn't play and win. I really do feel sorry for haters like you because that all you can do, hate.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Um, the reason they won was lots of things. The reason they won a ring was a certain giant lived in the paint for them. I don't hate on any great player. But I also don't give them credit for what they were not responsible for.

Hawkeye15
04-02-2009, 09:39 PM
can anybody here say truthfully, that if LeBron came into the league, and played with prime Shaq, that he wouldn't have a few rings as well? Nobody is questioning that Kobe won 3. But can you really tell me that LeBron wouldn't have that many or more if he came into the same situation?????? Kobe has had a better career, he has played longer, and has those rings as second banana, but LeBron is going to break the record books barring injury. Who here honestly doesn't think he will win a title? He has already come close, and he is 24.

ARMIN12NBA
04-02-2009, 09:55 PM
can anybody here say truthfully, that if LeBron came into the league, and played with prime Shaq, that he wouldn't have a few rings as well? Nobody is questioning that Kobe won 3. But can you really tell me that LeBron wouldn't have that many or more if he came into the same situation?????? Kobe has had a better career, he has played longer, and has those rings as second banana, but LeBron is going to break the record books barring injury. Who here honestly doesn't think he will win a title? He has already come close, and he is 24.

Take away NAMES and look into team chemistry and team concepts. You will find the answer to your questions. This has been brought up and rehashed on PSD many times. Simply think about team chemistry (on court)/concepts and the answer will be clear.

Hawkeye15
04-02-2009, 10:18 PM
Take away NAMES and look into team chemistry and team concepts. You will find the answer to your questions. This has been brought up and rehashed on PSD many times. Simply think about team chemistry (on court)/concepts and the answer will be clear.

I just did that, and LeBron has 3 rings. Weird

Hawkeye15
04-02-2009, 10:22 PM
here is the easiet example LeBron, at 24, has no prime Shaq on his team. Yet, his team's record will be exponentially better this year than Kobe's team at 24, who many fans like to point out had a better year than LeBron at the same age. Now, he may not win the title, I think he will, but here we are, yet again, debating who is better. Laker fans, we know who you pick. But the rest of the basketball world picks the other way a monster % of the time. So, whatevs. Let me have it. Per usual. Can't wait. I actually become dumber reading some of the posts that defend Kobe vs LeBron as youngens.

GREATNESS ONE
04-02-2009, 10:56 PM
^ ok I am usually the last guy that get's into these arguments. Honestly though Kobe is better slightly, (right now)Lebron is a Beast and a wonder to watch. I also agree that if he had Shaq he wouldve won 3 rings as well but it wouldve been difficult to run the triangle with Lebron. Kobe is a all world talent who has done it all except taking his team to the promise land, which I think ends this year. Lebron is a stat machine and a beast who can do it all and make you say wow often. But to say that Kobe was not A GIANT reason they didn't win 3 in a row is horse ****. Shaq's numbers in the finals where awesome because the east had no chance in hell to guard him no chance. But in the west there where Big men who could guard Shaq and alot of times Kobe came thru in the clutch and carried the team on his back. At a very young age Kobe showed why he was going to be a dominant force to be reckon with in his career the Killer instinct this kid has the drive the will to be the Best. Honestly Lebron is a stud but so is Kobe and to take anything away frmo a great player show's ignorance and it's honestly quite annoying. Two great player's with 2 totally different attributes and there are people who dont appreciate these two superstar's Ridiculous.

Zefflin
04-02-2009, 11:00 PM
here is the easiet example LeBron, at 24, has no prime Shaq on his team.

Whahhh, :cry: whahh, if only Lebron had Optimus Prime Shaq then blah blah blah..........and KB played with no "prime" Shaq.........but still, a very dominant fat Shaq is better than most.


Yet, his team's record will be exponentially better this year than Kobe's team at 24, who many fans like to point out had a better year than LeBron at the same age.

Would you chill with the record thing man, Bron finally just got over 50 wins for the first time in his career and you're already annoying.


Now, he may not win the title, I think he will, but here we are, yet again, debating who is better.

Debating what? That IF Lebron does what the title mentioned people think he still won't have a better career...because he won't...even IF he did.


Laker fans, we know who you pick.

Clevland fans, we know who you pick.


But the rest of the basketball world picks the other way a monster % of the time.

Speak for yourself.

desertlakeshow
04-02-2009, 11:01 PM
This is a strange thread. So far all Labron James has done is go 0-1 in the NBA finals.

Kobe has three titles. Also has been to 2 other finals. He is a more polished offensive force.

He plays better defense.

He makes his free throws at the end of a game when they count.

Bringing shaq into the discussion is a bad idea. How many titles did shaq win before Kobe. I think zero. I feel strongly that Kobe was the driving motivational force behind those titles.

Yes shaq was a monster, but he has no instinct for snatching the win. It took a young brash spark plug to light a fire under his fat ***** and win a ring.

MJ had one or two hall of famers on his team (if rodman is that). The year MJ played t-ball his bulls went to the eastern conference finals.

Kobes career so far has been better.

Labron needs to win titles and I mean titles with an S.

I dont care about MVP's, all star games, team votes, fan votes, etc.

Kobe at this time in his career is the second best player at his position and has three titles.

Good luck Labron

ARMIN12NBA
04-02-2009, 11:14 PM
I just did that, and LeBron has 3 rings. Weird

Nope. Lebron coming out of high school to play with Shaq? Probably none. Lebron loves to drive into the paint. More than anybody in the league. Shaq would completely take the paint away from him. Not to mention the amount of touches that Shaq would demand. Lebron has the offense completely to himself right now. With Shaq, the offense completely and utterly runs through him (trust me, I know this). You are forgetting so many variables man. How about defense? Kobe was one of the best, if not the best perimeter defender at those times. He would defend the perimeter greatly. Lebron was a bad defender out of HS. Very bad. Imagine the Lakers with a jumbled up offense, an out of sorts Lebron, and a bad defense. Basically no championship.


here is the easiet example LeBron, at 24, has no prime Shaq on his team. Yet, his team's record will be exponentially better this year than Kobe's team at 24, who many fans like to point out had a better year than LeBron at the same age. Now, he may not win the title, I think he will, but here we are, yet again, debating who is better. Laker fans, we know who you pick. But the rest of the basketball world picks the other way a monster % of the time. So, whatevs. Let me have it. Per usual. Can't wait. I actually become dumber reading some of the posts that defend Kobe vs LeBron as youngens.

Lebron had a better team around him than Kobe did when Kobe was 24 though...Lebron's team is downright perfect for him (or even 24 year old Kobe). Tons of three-point shooters, defensive minded coach, defensive minded players, rebounders, and mid-range shooting big men. That is the perfect compliment around Lebron (or Kobe). Kobe's supporting cast besides Shaq (who was out for 15 games) was horrid. Fisher, Fox (who was on a HUGE decline), Horry (declining), George (scrub), Sumaki (scrub), Slava (scrub), and Brian (declining big time).

Besides Kobe and Shaq, the Lakers supporting cast was a downright joke. Bill Simmons even wrote articles about this in the past. He was arguing that the Lakers were not a dynasty team because they were pretty damn bad besides Shaq and Kobe. MADMENS BALL talks about how Mitch Kupchak failed miserably to surround Shaq and Kobe with any sort of depth. Shaq missing a lot of time and the team not really getting in sync really cost them. As I said at the time, two great players are not going to single handily carry that team. They didn't have any perfect compliments around them. Just a bunch of worn down veterans and cheap scrubs. Anyways, sorry for the tangent.

Not really. Have you ever seen the percentages of polls? Kobe usually leads them.

DODGERS&LAKERS
04-02-2009, 11:24 PM
here is the easiet example LeBron, at 24, has no prime Shaq on his team. Yet, his team's record will be exponentially better this year than Kobe's team at 24, who many fans like to point out had a better year than LeBron at the same age. Now, he may not win the title, I think he will, but here we are, yet again, debating who is better. Laker fans, we know who you pick. But the rest of the basketball world picks the other way a monster % of the time. So, whatevs. Let me have it. Per usual. Can't wait. I actually become dumber reading some of the posts that defend Kobe vs LeBron as youngens.

You do know that the team record really does not mean anything right? Shaq only played 66 games that year. And the Lakers had a really thin supporting cast after the third championship.

But here is a question about PER. How does Lebron almost have the highest PER ever at 31.5, and Kobe only have a PER of a modest 26.2 when their stats were very similar at the same age?

Lebron.................... Kobe
pts 28.3.................. pts 30.00
rbd 7.7 .................. rbd 6.9
ast 7.3................... ast 5.9
stl 1.8 ................... stl 2.2
blk 1.2 .................. blk .08
tov 2.9.................. tov 3.5
fg% 48 ................. fg% 45
3 pt 33%................ 3pt 38%
ft % .77%.............. ft%84%

Where is Chronz when you need him?