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View Full Version : Kobe's ego needs to take a step back.



EHL
03-29-2009, 09:16 PM
Really. Im sick of his chucking ways. And I hate it when he plays injured.


I mean, if you're not 100% and shooting 30% on the floor, please get some rest and let Pau Gasol take over for just a game or two. Seriously!!! We know you're a warrior but that tough attitude is getting old. Use your common sense and get healthy.

still1ballin
03-29-2009, 09:55 PM
ok

Durant is hype
03-29-2009, 09:58 PM
Really. Im sick of his chucking ways. And I hate it when he plays injured.


I mean, if you're not 100% and shooting 30% on the floor, please get some rest and let Pau Gasol take over for just a game or two. Seriously!!! We know you're a warrior but that tough attitude is getting old. Use your common sense and get healthy.

I can't tell whether your a Laker fan or a Kobe hater.

Raptor-54
03-29-2009, 10:20 PM
...........................

KobeIs
03-29-2009, 10:24 PM
dude speaks the truth. he's just on a rough stretch of really bad shooting games. i think hes just trying to shoot himself out of it

i think phil is gonna sit kobe and pau if the cavs' lead on the top seed get too far. atleast i hope he does.

NYMetros
03-29-2009, 10:31 PM
You hate it when he plays injured? That is usually a quality that you WANT your star player to have. Would you rather have him be more like Tracy McGrady?

CoKe WaVe
03-29-2009, 10:32 PM
rest against the hawks ?

ragee
03-29-2009, 10:59 PM
You hate it when he plays injured? That is usually a quality that you WANT your star player to have. Would you rather have him be more like Tracy McGrady?

:laugh:

Hellcrooner
03-29-2009, 11:10 PM
Problem is Kobe wants ALWAYS to be the top scorer, and when he is having a bad night he keeps on Shooting, tonight for example, Pau was having a hot hand and he was shooitng like ****, he kept shooting instead of passing.

that attitude killed us in 04 against Pistons and Again in 08 against Celtics.....

Im afraid it will happen again, specially if the finals are the Kobe vs Lebron Finals.


Lord please let Orlando be the East finalist....

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
03-29-2009, 11:12 PM
Problem is Kobe wants ALWAYS to be the top scorer, and when he is having a bad night he keeps on Shooting, tonight for example, Pau was having a hot hand and he was shooitng like ****, he kept shooting instead of passing.

that attitude killed us in 04 against Pistons and Again in 08 against Celtics.....

Im afraid it will happen again, specially if the finals are the Kobe vs Lebron Finals.


Lord please let Orlando be the East finalist....

I will pray for the Lakers if you pray for the Cavaliers, deal?:)

_KB24_
03-29-2009, 11:28 PM
Wow, this guy is seriously something. What do you mean by his " tough attitude getting old"?? Its called having passion and dedication for the game. It helps the game. All the greats would never miss a game this late into the season with a sore ankle or any other ***** injury. He's been playing ball a long time and has played through way more injuries and I think we should let him decide when or when not to play.

DerekRE_3
03-29-2009, 11:33 PM
You hate it when he plays injured? That is usually a quality that you WANT your star player to have. Would you rather have him be more like Tracy McGrady?

I was thinkings the same thing. A hurt Kobe is still...pretty freaking good.

Brooke
03-29-2009, 11:35 PM
You hate it when he plays injured? That is usually a quality that you WANT your star player to have. Would you rather have him be more like Tracy McGrady?

Good question. As a fan of Kobe's I love how mentally tough he is and how much of a warrior he is

IndyRealist
03-29-2009, 11:37 PM
I'm a Kobe hater, but he shows heart. He's your best player by far, and if feels like he needs to take 40 shots then you let him. It's not like this is the game that's going to break their season, if chucking up shots now gets him ready for the playoffs, so be it.

Teeboy1487
03-29-2009, 11:38 PM
Sorry, but this thread belongs in the lakers' forum. I somewhat agree, but at least he is out there trying to win ball games while hurt. However, if he is hurt that bad, he needs to rest and get healthy for the playoffs.

shiller bustelo
03-29-2009, 11:40 PM
stop whining

Jacob K.
03-29-2009, 11:43 PM
Really. Im sick of his chucking ways. And I hate it when he plays injured.


I mean, if you're not 100% and shooting 30% on the floor, please get some rest and let Pau Gasol take over for just a game or two. Seriously!!! We know you're a warrior but that tough attitude is getting old. Use your common sense and get healthy.

Do you mean you hate it the way he plays when hes injured? cuz thats how i took it and i agree. hes plays like hes fine, when hes not and his game is off.

blacknell
03-29-2009, 11:59 PM
well he is not Lebron

ertanozgur
03-30-2009, 12:00 AM
i think the most diffucult thing in this world is to be Kobe Bryant.....he play ,you criticize ; he doesnt play , you again criticize ...what does he have to do to make you happy?

Brooke
03-30-2009, 12:02 AM
i think the most diffucult thing in this world is to be Kobe Bryant.....he play ,you criticize ; he doesnt play , you again criticize ...what does he have to do to make you happy?

that is a question I have been asking for years now

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 12:32 AM
Problem is Kobe wants ALWAYS to be the top scorer, and when he is having a bad night he keeps on Shooting, tonight for example, Pau was having a hot hand and he was shooitng like ****, he kept shooting instead of passing.

that attitude killed us in 04 against Pistons and Again in 08 against Celtics.....

Im afraid it will happen again, specially if the finals are the Kobe vs Lebron Finals.


Lord please let Orlando be the East finalist....

That is actually a good thing. He stays aggressive and keeps the defense on their toes. The thing is, is that a defense will always have to account for an aggressive Kobe even if he is having a bad shooting night. Some stars become tentative when they are having a bad day and that hurts the entire team because the star basically gets completely out of the game. The fact that Kobe continues to stay aggressive (making the shots or not) helps the rest of the team because they will get open looks to which Kobe will find them. If Kobe became tentative then the defense could sag a bit, but Kobe does not allow for that.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 12:34 AM
well he is not Lebron

Exactly. Lebron usually sits 7 games when he has a slightly sprained pinky on his non-shooting hand. Lebron would never allow for his stats to suffer in any way, shape or form. Kobe plays through injuries, he is definitely not Lebron.

Hawkize31
03-30-2009, 12:48 AM
Kobe led the NBA in field goal attempts in the 05-06 season, the 06-07 season, and the 07-08 season. He likes to shoot all the time, its just how he plays. He won the MVP shooting all the time last year. And his FG% is better this year than it was last year. He may have had a bad game or a bad stretch, but he does that from time to time. It happens.

Duncan = Donkey
03-30-2009, 12:49 AM
i think the most diffucult thing in this world is to be Kobe Bryant.....he play ,you criticize ; he doesnt play , you again criticize ...what does he have to do to make you happy?

yer playing a sport you love and getting paid millions while doing must be the toughest thing ever, i feel so so bad for him, just a tough life:rolleyes:

Hawkize31
03-30-2009, 12:49 AM
Exactly. Lebron usually sits 7 games when he has a slightly sprained pinky on his non-shooting hand. Lebron would never allow for his stats to suffer in any way, shape or form. Kobe plays through injuries, he is definitely not Lebron.

Lol, ok. :rolleyes:

A little bitter are we?

Duncan = Donkey
03-30-2009, 12:50 AM
i think the most diffucult thing in this world is to be Kobe Bryant.....he play ,you criticize ; he doesnt play , you again criticize ...what does he have to do to make you happy?

yer playing a sport you love and getting paid millions while doing it must be the most difficult thing ever, i feel so so bad for him, just a tough life:rolleyes:

~ALpHa M LyTe~
03-30-2009, 01:50 AM
i think the most diffucult thing in this world is to be Kobe Bryant.....he play ,you criticize ; he doesnt play , you again criticize ...what does he have to do to make you happy?

I Agree...its funny because i think we all can agree that kobe Defers Now More then ever to his Team mates But Yet is Still criticized After the Celtics Seris i heard Ppl say he didnt Shoot Enough when his team was Struggling he should have taken over then i heard ppl say he shot to much when he wasnt on and should have got his team mates more involved. I give him all the credit in the world for playing hurt and not saying we have the west won and the only way we wont have home court throughout is if we play the Cavs in the Finals Sit me. Kobe @ 80 % is still better then 90% of the league at 100 %

ragee
03-30-2009, 02:07 AM
Problem is Kobe wants ALWAYS to be the top scorer, and when he is having a bad night he keeps on Shooting, tonight for example, Pau was having a hot hand and he was shooitng like ****, he kept shooting instead of passing.

that attitude killed us in 04 against Pistons and Again in 08 against Celtics.....

Im afraid it will happen again, specially if the finals are the Kobe vs Lebron Finals.


Lord please let Orlando be the East finalist....

Hell yeah... So we can whoop some Laker butts!

#1Mavericksfan
03-30-2009, 02:27 AM
People bash Kobe all the time but know dam well if Kobe was a free agent they would want there team to sign him.

More-Than-Most
03-30-2009, 02:30 AM
I actually understand where the thread maker is coming from and I agree. Kobe playing all the time even when hurt is not the best solution. He could further an injury or his over shooting could hurt the team esp when he shoots 30 percent from the field. Look at Favre and his final games with the Jets as an example. He wanted to play because he is a warrior but he ended up costing them when it counted most.

hotdogbun
03-30-2009, 03:04 AM
Problem is Kobe wants ALWAYS to be the top scorer, and when he is having a bad night he keeps on Shooting, tonight for example, Pau was having a hot hand and he was shooitng like ****, he kept shooting instead of passing.

that attitude killed us in 04 against Pistons and Again in 08 against Celtics.....

Im afraid it will happen again, specially if the finals are the Kobe vs Lebron Finals.


Lord please let Orlando be the East finalist....

because he believes that every shot he takes will go down. and thats the type of mentality elite players should have. why would he shoot if he thinks it aint going down?

but that same attitude won us the 00,01,02 championships

laexpress
03-30-2009, 03:12 AM
I agree, you have to live and die with Kobe Bryant being Kobe. Let's be honest, for every game winning, game changing, heroic shot or move, he'll give you a 7-25 night from the floor and leave you wondering why he isn't driving to the basket more or he'll take a very bad 3pt shot with 17 on the shot clock. I seriously doubt that Cleveland is giving up that home court now that they have two games on us with nine to go, so I say rest Pau and Kobe more and get them primed for the playoffs.

hotdogbun
03-30-2009, 03:17 AM
and lets not forget that the lakers beat the cavs in cleveland this season. the only home loss so far for the cavs

The Blue Baller
03-30-2009, 03:35 AM
i think the most diffucult thing in this world is to be Kobe Bryant.....he play ,you criticize ; he doesnt play , you again criticize ...what does he have to do to make you happy?

I agree

I hate it when those starving kids in Ethiopia try to make it seem like they have it tough.
And all you cancer and AIDS patients... get over yourself. It's not like you're Kobe Bryant or something.

I, for one, would much rather lose my job in the recession than have to deal with what that man does...

rabueed
03-30-2009, 03:45 AM
I agree

I hate it when those starving kids in Ethiopia try to make it seem like they have it tough.
And all you cancer and AIDS patients... get over yourself. It's not like you're Kobe Bryant or something.

I, for one, would much rather lose my job in the recession than have to deal with what that man does...

:laugh:

that was hilarious.

but anyways, I kinda get the statement. The guy is ragged on by millions of people for everything he does. He shoots too much or too little, passes too much, doesn't pass enough, not enough aggression, too much aggression.... :bla:

the guy plays the way he plays because, more times than not, it's successful.

Hotone1401
03-30-2009, 05:45 AM
because he believes that every shot he takes will go down. and thats the type of mentality elite players should have. why would he shoot if he thinks it aint going down?
but that same attitude won us the 00,01,02 championships

There are times where Kobe should recognize when he is hot or not though...right? I kind of agree with the guy's frustrations about Kobe's selfish game lately. Yes, he has been playing selfishly. I hoped that Kobe would've recognized that Pau has got it going and continue to go to him. I too get frustrated when Kobe breaks the offense (too much) to go one on one and take contested shots. It really isn't that serious to me though because it's still regular season ball afterall so watever.

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 07:05 AM
Exactly. Lebron usually sits 7 games when he has a slightly sprained pinky on his non-shooting hand. Lebron would never allow for his stats to suffer in any way, shape or form. Kobe plays through injuries, he is definitely not Lebron.

You're a pretty good poster on these forums, always elaborating your opinions. But this post only hurts the credibility within your arguments.

hotdogbun
03-30-2009, 07:12 AM
There are times where Kobe should recognize when he is hot or not though...right? I kind of agree with the guy's frustrations about Kobe's selfish game lately. Yes, he has been playing selfishly. I hoped that Kobe would've recognized that Pau has got it going and continue to go to him. I too get frustrated when Kobe breaks the offense (too much) to go one on one and take contested shots. It really isn't that serious to me though because it's still regular season ball afterall so watever.

even if his not hot and has missed 20 straight shots i still would want kobe to take the shot for my team. cuz i always believe that kobe's shots will go in. and he has proven that in his career. even if he is 3-20 or somthing like that he will still have the guts to shoot and make the shot.

whats better?
player 15/15 from the field until he misses the shot to win it to become 15/16
or a
player 0/15 from the field until he makes the shot to win it to become 1/16?

stats suck whats important is the wins. and the lakers are now 58-15

hotdogbun
03-30-2009, 07:13 AM
You're a pretty good poster on these forums, always elaborating your opinions. But this post only hurts the credibility within your arguments.

why? cuz his telling the truth? and lebron is your fave player?

stensley
03-30-2009, 08:14 AM
Really. Im sick of his chucking ways. And I hate it when he plays injured.


I mean, if you're not 100% and shooting 30% on the floor, please get some rest and let Pau Gasol take over for just a game or two. Seriously!!! We know you're a warrior but that tough attitude is getting old. Use your common sense and get healthy.

Wow, you think that you would appreciate his commitment to the Lakers and the game. Pau is a great 2nd option, but he shown that he is not the greatest 1st option, for all the Kobe has done for the Lakers and the game and for what he puts in to get out there every game, I want him out there. Do you really think that the Lakers are a better team with out him out on the floor:confused:

majmarcus
03-30-2009, 10:33 AM
How in God's name can a "tough attitude" get old?Now Kobe does need to rest!So I'll agree with that part.But As many cry babies that's in the league,Don't get on one of the few that plays hurt/tired? Maybe you wouldn't say anything if Kobe went Vince Carter on us & LIMPS DOWN THE FLOOR WHEN HIS FREAKIN' "EYE HURTS"? Or when D-WADE "CRIES" & NEEDS A STROLLER,I MEAN "WHEELCHAIR" because of his "SEPARATED SHOULDER"!

p.s. It's a thread of DIFFERENT opinion(s).We(The Public)aren't suppose to agree on every topic! Good gracious people STOP being so DAMN JUDGE MENTAL & move the hell on! I'm reminded On A Regular Basis How many ARROGANT/MY ISH DON'T STINK ARSE PEOPLE ARE IN HERE/THE WORLD!(You know who you are)....Dude you failed to make a point with this thread topic,IMO.But keep posting Fams,you good.

Hellcrooner
03-30-2009, 11:56 AM
because he believes that every shot he takes will go down. and thats the type of mentality elite players should have. why would he shoot if he thinks it aint going down?

but that same attitude won us the 00,01,02 championships

Don be blind, he was the SECOND option those years, the big mamooth was the one that brought those titles and would have brought them even if eddie Jones was still around instead of kobe.

what54!?
03-30-2009, 12:30 PM
maybe he just likes to play basketball......

colinskik
03-30-2009, 12:42 PM
Wow. Why are people getting so heated about this? Look, a game against Atlanta isn't an absolutely crucial game and thus a great opportunity for Kobe to take a seat and rest up for the playoffs. Plus, Pau has been the number one option on a team and can not only shoulder the load if needed but should be given more touches as the playoffs approach.

The Lakers without Kobe are still a pretty good team. No where near championship caliber, don't get me wrong, but they can stand to have Kobe not play a game or two.

To make the comparison, the Cavs without Lebron take a serious hit on talent and level of play.

Kobe's attitude for the game is still the best there is, and in my opinion, he's the best player in the game. I think it's Phil's job to sit Kobe strategically against opponents that the other Lakers match up well against.

Jacob K.
03-30-2009, 05:17 PM
because he believes that every shot he takes will go down. and thats the type of mentality elite players should have. why would he shoot if he thinks it aint going down?

but that same attitude won us the 00,01,02 championships

shaq won those championships

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 06:33 PM
You're a pretty good poster on these forums, always elaborating your opinions. But this post only hurts the credibility within your arguments.

I'm not sure how my credibility would be hurt when I simply stated a cold hard fact. Do you want me to lie and say Lebron did not sit nearly two weeks with a sprained pinky on his non-shooting hand? IMO, lying hurts somebody's credibility more than telling the truth...

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 06:35 PM
Don be blind, he was the SECOND option those years, the big mamooth was the one that brought those titles and would have brought them even if eddie Jones was still around instead of kobe.

LOL. Then why didn't he, Crooner? Shaq had a few years with Eddie and Van Exel (two all-stars) and still could not get it done. Once Kobe took the rains and Eddie/Exel were shipped, the Lakers won the championships.

SF25
03-30-2009, 06:40 PM
Really. Im sick of his chucking ways. And I hate it when he plays injured.


I mean, if you're not 100% and shooting 30% on the floor, please get some rest and let Pau Gasol take over for just a game or two. Seriously!!! We know you're a warrior but that tough attitude is getting old. Use your common sense and get healthy.

Agree with everything except the injured part, that makes no sense to me.

Hellcrooner
03-30-2009, 06:43 PM
LOL. Then why didn't he, Crooner? Shaq had a few years with Eddie and Van Exel (two all-stars) and still could not get it done. Once Kobe took the rains and Eddie/Exel were shipped, the Lakers won the championships. :D

Ha Ha Ha Ha

Thats EASY

P.H.I.L J.A.C.K.S.O.N

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 06:51 PM
:D

Ha Ha Ha Ha

Thats EASY

P.H.I.L J.A.C.K.S.O.N

Jackson needed Kobe though so you are basically contradicting your statement...

P.S. Read the book MADMENS BALL. It's about the Lakers recent history. Pretty good book and it gives great insight into what was going on during that time period.

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 06:58 PM
I just hate it when people cloud their opinions in bias when they should know better.

And no, LeBron is not my favorite player by a mile...but calling him a statpadder is just a ridiculous statement.

Don't give me this 'cold hard fact' nonsense...what are you a psychic?

madiaz3
03-30-2009, 06:58 PM
Don be blind, he was the SECOND option those years, the big mamooth was the one that brought those titles and would have brought them even if eddie Jones was still around instead of kobe.

oh man

you mean like how shaq averaged 30.4 ppg in 00-01 playoffs and kobe averaged 29.4?
please dont be ignorant about anyone CARRYING anyone truly

kobe mostly led them through the western conference playoffs and of course Shaq had a field day in the finals each year with the big man opposition he was up against.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 07:04 PM
I just hate it when people cloud their opinions in bias when they should know better.

And no, LeBron is not my favorite player by a mile...but calling him a statpadder is just a ridiculous statement.

Don't give me this 'cold hard fact' nonsense...what are you a psychic?

No. I just happen to be somebody who watched the NBA last year and knew that Lebron missed many games due to an injury to a finger on his non-shooting hand. Seriously, what is the big deal here? I think you are over-reacting "by a mile."

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 07:09 PM
oh man

you mean like how shaq averaged 30.4 ppg in 00-01 playoffs and kobe averaged 29.4?
please dont be ignorant about anyone CARRYING anyone truly

kobe mostly led them through the western conference playoffs and of course Shaq had a field day in the finals each year with the big man opposition he was up against.

People don't care. Most people here were probably too young back then and just like to spread the fashionable propaganda that Kobe sucked and was just there to bask in Shaq's glory.

The great Smits and MacCullough. :laugh2:

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 07:13 PM
No. I just happen to be somebody who watched the NBA last year and knew that Lebron missed many games due to an injury to a finger on his non-shooting hand. Seriously, what is the big deal here? I think you are over-reacting "by a mile."

You've been calling out LeBron for statpadding numerous times, an opinion which I find severely questionable so that's why I called you out.

Cleveland just depends alot more on LeBrons ballhandling than the Lakrs with Kobe. The triangle is more about willing passing and ball movement, so Kobe doesn't handle the ball as much as LeBron. Thus less strain on his injury than LeBron would have.

Having an injury on your off hand can be just as bothersome because it limits your ballhandling.

aWiLL 20
03-30-2009, 07:24 PM
if the man wants to go out and battle...and is giving all he has....you dont change that. esp kobe bryant.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 07:24 PM
You've been calling out LeBron for statpadding numerous times, an opinion which I find severely questionable so that's why I called you out.

Cleveland just depends alot more on LeBrons ballhandling than the Lakrs with Kobe. The triangle is more about willing passing and ball movement, so Kobe doesn't handle the ball as much as LeBron. Thus less strain on his injury than LeBron would have.

Having an injury on your off hand can be just as bothersome because it limits your ballhandling.

I guess we can just ignore Lebron's dipped FG% against the elite teams because you find it questionable. OK then.

LOL at your BS excuse muh man. I usually respect your posts, but that is complete BS. There is no way Lebron couldn't have mustered up the courage to play. He could have. He EVEN SAID HE COULD HAVE PLAYED AT THE TIME...so stop making excuses when the man himself said he could play. He just said he wanted to be completely healthy and 100% to play (aka not wanting the stats to be hurt). Lets not forget that Bryant played with completely torn ligaments and bones on his shooting hand last year and then dislocated his ring finger on his shooting hand and is still playing! Come on muh man. Stop making dumbass excuses.

Hellcrooner
03-30-2009, 07:28 PM
Armin you know better.

Ive watched the last days of Glory of Cooper, Mcadoo and THompson in the lakers.

I even know who Jeff Lamp Was ;)

I know what i talk about.

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 07:33 PM
I guess we can just ignore Lebron's dipped FG% against the elite teams because you find it questionable. OK then.

LOL at your BS excuse muh man. I usually respect your posts, but that is complete BS. There is no way Lebron couldn't have mustered up the courage to play. He could have. He EVEN SAID HE COULD HAVE PLAYED AT THE TIME...so stop making excuses when the man himself said he could play. He just said he wanted to be completely healthy and 100% to play (aka not wanting the stats to be hurt). Lets not forget that Bryant played with completely torn ligaments and bones on his shooting hand last year and then dislocated his ring finger on his shooting hand and is still playing! Come on muh man. Stop making dumbass excuses.

My are we touchy feely here. Like I said before, where the hell do you get the stupid connection between LeBrons injury and him presumably wanting to preserve his statistics? There is no proof of this.

Nobody is knocking Kobe Bryant and his toughness. It's all well documented. I just wanted a clear answer of why you think LeBron is more interested in preserving his statistics. And I still get a BS answer that completely evades the question.

Chill down and talk like a mature person that approaches a legit question with a legit answer...not this paranoia that I supposedly hurt your feelings.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 07:43 PM
My are we touchy feely here. Like I said before, where the hell do you get the stupid connection between LeBrons injury and him presumably wanting to preserve his statistics? There is no proof of this.

Nobody is knocking Kobe Bryant and his toughness. It's all well documented. I just wanted a clear answer of why you think LeBron is more interested in preserving his statistics. And I still get a BS answer that completely evades the question.

Chill down and talk like a mature person that approaches a legit question with a legit answer...not this paranoia that I supposedly hurt your feelings.

There is no paranoia. Just the simple fact that all your excuses were complete ********. No denying that. Your remarks were beyond me. I really couldn't even fathom that you would dig that deep for an excuse (ball-handling...really? don't tell me that Kobe doesn't handle the ball and although he doesn't handle it nearly as much as LBJ, it hurts a hell of a lot more to shoot with a broken finger...trust me, I know).

Why do I think that? His statements and actions have proved to point me to that conclusion. Is it a concrete, undeniable fact? Nope. Most things aren't. We are simply sharing our opinions. Most of the actual facts (actions, statements, etc.) point to the idea that he is stat-padder. Calm down muh man and just accept that this is very much a possibility. Especially considering he has been accused of this long before. OK. :eyebrow:

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 07:47 PM
Armin you know better.

Ive watched the last days of Glory of Cooper, Mcadoo and THompson in the lakers.

I even know who Jeff Lamp Was ;)

I know what i talk about.

Then why are your statements (and thread) about Kobe so ridiculous. I mean, you would seriously be out of your mind if you think Eddie and Exel would have produced a title instead of Kobe. Especially considering they had a few years to do so and did not produce a single title (instead they got swept).

Like I said, read MADMENS BALL (Gasol is on the cover by the way...extra incentive to buy it :D).

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 07:53 PM
There is no paranoia. Just the simple fact that all your excuses were complete ********. No denying that. Your remarks were beyond me. I really couldn't even fathom that you would dig that deep for an excuse (ball-handling...really? don't tell me that Kobe doesn't handle the ball and although he doesn't handle it nearly as much as LBJ, it hurts a hell of a lot more to shoot with a broken finger...trust me, I know).

Why do I think that? His statements and actions have proved to point me to that conclusion. Is it a concrete, undeniable fact? Nope. Most things aren't. We are simply sharing our opinions. Most of the actual facts (actions, statements, etc.) point to the idea that he is stat-padder. Calm down muh man and just accept that this is very much a possibility. Especially considering he has been accused of this long before. OK. :eyebrow:

I don't think it's an excuse at all, I think they are legit arguments. You may disagree, fine. I've been posting around here for awhile now and most longtime posters know I'm not really known to make petty excuses so quit acting like a moron whenever someone questions something you say (with no hard feelings whatsoever). The triangle is more of a free movement offense. It's the reason why Kobe is more a designated scorer than the do everything guy he can be. He doesn't have to be, because he is a threat from the perimeter and can also play off the ball.

With Cleveland, the offense usually begins and ends with LeBron. He creates opportunities by exploiting the matchups against him. Both players are arguably just as important to their respective teams, but you can't fault the LeBron for sitting out. Then you might as well call every other player that has sat out for injury. The argument that he is doing it to maintain his high averages has yet to hold any ground.

I just like to read these 'actual facts' and I'll be off your back :)

Ok?

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 08:02 PM
I don't think it's an excuse at all, I think they are legit arguments. You may disagree, fine. I've been posting around here for awhile now and most longtime posters know I'm not really known to make petty excuses so quit acting like a moron whenever someone questions something you say (with no hard feelings whatsoever). The triangle is more of a free movement offense. It's the reason why Kobe is more a designated scorer than the do everything guy he can be. He doesn't have to be, because he is a threat from the perimeter and can also play off the ball.

With Cleveland, the offense usually begins and ends with LeBron. He creates opportunities by exploiting the matchups against him. Both players are arguably just as important to their respective teams, but you can't fault the LeBron for sitting out. Then you might as well call every other player that has sat out for injury. The argument that he is doing it to maintain his high averages has yet to hold any ground.

I just like to read these 'actual facts' and I'll be off your back :)

Ok?

You seem to be a moron. Did you not read the post? I was responding to somebody who suggested that Lebron was so much better than Bryant because this thread was put up. I simply responded by saying Kobe is not like Lebron...because he plays through injuries. Why would I call out other players?

JayW, have you ever played with a finger injury? I did. Don't comment when you have no idea.

THERE IS LITERALLY NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE PAIN WHEN SHOOTING THE BALL AND WHEN DRIBBLING. NOT TO MENTION THAT KOBE HAS TO DRIBBLE AS WELL. NOT TO MENTION THAT IT IS JAMES' OFF HAND.

Do you get it now? I seriously do not feel like reiterating the facts. You seriously do not seem to get it at all. I get your point that Lebron has to dribble...but it doesn't change the fact that the injury was to his off-arm and that he still has another hand (the hand he predominantly uses). It doesn't change the fact that pain is so much worse when shooting. It doesn't change the fact that Kobe has to shoot as well.

I'm exhausted. LOL.

BlackMamba
03-30-2009, 08:03 PM
Then why are your statements (and thread) about Kobe so ridiculous. I mean, you would seriously be out of your mind if you think Eddie and Exel would have produced a title instead of Kobe. Especially considering they had a few years to do so and did not produce a single title (instead they got swept).

Like I said, read MADMENS BALL (Gasol is on the cover by the way...extra incentive to buy it :D).
I think thats all hypothetical but you have the upper hand in the argument since what you said is what actually happened. Jones and Exel seemed more like 3rd options on a title contending team. Not to discredit them, though. Del Harris never had the ability to take that team to the next level and the team was a bit inexperienced. And even with Exel and Jones gone for Rice and Lue, the team didn't have any significant improvement as their swept by SA. Most credit should go to Jackson and Kobe becoming a superstar/all star in 2000.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 08:08 PM
I think thats all hypothetical but you have the upper hand in the argument since what you said is what actually happened. Jones and Exel seemed more like 3rd options on a title contending team. Not to discredit them, though. Del Harris never had the ability to take that team to the next level and the team was a bit inexperienced. And even with Exel and Jones gone for Rice and Lue, the team didn't have any significant improvement as their swept by SA. Most credit should go to Jackson and Kobe becoming a superstar/all star in 2000.

Kobe was already an all-star. He just became a superstar offensively and dominant defensively in 2000. That and Jackson's arrival brought the championships. Just Jackson and they don't win any titles.

BlackMamba
03-30-2009, 08:13 PM
Kobe was already an all-star. He just became a superstar offensively and dominant defensively in 2000. That and Jackson's arrival brought the championships. Just Jackson and they don't win any titles.

Kobe wasn't really playing at an all star level in '98. He just got voted in because the fans loved him and he was a great entertainer. You're right about the latter, though.

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 08:15 PM
You seem to be a moron. Did you not read the post? I was responding to somebody who suggested that Lebron was so much better than Bryant because this thread was put up. I simply responded by saying Kobe is not like Lebron...because he plays through injuries. Why would I call out other players?

JayW, have you ever played with a finger injury? I did. Don't comment when you have no idea.

THERE IS LITERALLY NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE PAIN WHEN SHOOTING THE BALL AND WHEN DRIBBLING. NOT TO MENTION THAT KOBE HAS TO DRIBBLE AS WELL. NOT TO MENTION THAT IT IS JAMES' OFF HAND.

Do you get it now? I seriously do not feel like reiterating the facts. You seriously do not seem to get it at all. I get your point that Lebron has to dribble...but it doesn't change the fact that the injury was to his off-arm and that he still has another hand (the hand he predominantly uses). It doesn't change the fact that pain is so much worse when shooting. It doesn't change the fact that Kobe has to shoot as well.

I'm exhausted. LOL.


Could ask you the same thing. I clearly said two posts ago that I wasn't knocking Kobe by comparison and that his toughness is well documented. You haven't read my posts closely at all. You are acting as if I disagree with you about Kobes toughness, while I have stated numerous times that Kobe is not the average player and tends to play through injuries better than most players. I actually supported your argument.

You act as if I don't read your posts, and that is completely false. But if I don't get a direct answer I'm forced to ask the same question numerous times. All I did simply did was ask for an eleborate response...something of which I know you're capable of giving.

But just because LeBron falls under 'most players' doesn't mean he is a selfish statpadder. All I wanted to know is on what facts you base this assumption on. All I stated was that most players would prolly sit out with the injury LeBron had. You and I both know Kobe Bryant isn't 'most players'.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 08:15 PM
Kobe wasn't really playing at an all star level in '98. He just got voted in because the fans loved him and he was a great entertainer. You're right about the latter, though.

He played at an all-star level in '99 IMO.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 08:20 PM
Could ask you the same thing. I clearly said two posts ago that I wasn't knocking Kobe by comparison and that his toughness is well documented. You haven't read my posts closely at all. You are acting as if I disagree with you about Kobes toughness, while I have stated numerous times that Kobe is not the average player and tends to play through injuries better than most players. I actually supported your argument.

You act as if I don't read your posts, and that is completely false. But if I don't get a direct answer I'm forced to ask the same question numerous times. All I did simply did was ask for an eleborate response...something of which I know you're capable of giving.

But just because LeBron falls under 'most players' doesn't mean he is a selfish statpadder. All I wanted to know is on what facts you base this assumption on. All I stated was that most players would prolly sit out with the injury LeBron had. You and I both know Kobe Bryant isn't 'most players'.

Here is the thing, Lebron SHOULD be playing through these injuries. There are no excuses for him not to. Kobe isn't most players, but Lebron shouldn't be most players either. That is why I am forced to ask the question, is there some other underlying reason to why Lebron missed time when he was injured and could still clearly play? The only reason that makes sense considering some of the statements he made, his actions, and proof that his stats raise considerably against horrid teams, is that he is a stat-padder and was afraid that his stats would be compromised. Basically, he was willing to compromise his team a few wins for the sake of his stats. I don't dig that JayW, I don't like that at all.

R. Johnson#3
03-30-2009, 08:25 PM
Kobe Bryant should have a big ego. I mean come on, he's Kobe Bryant. If I was Kobe Bryant I'd be walking around looking down my nose at everybody.

macc
03-30-2009, 08:26 PM
Problem is Kobe wants ALWAYS to be the top scorer, and when he is having a bad night he keeps on Shooting, tonight for example, Pau was having a hot hand and he was shooitng like ****, he kept shooting instead of passing.

that attitude killed us in 04 against Pistons and Again in 08 against Celtics.....

Im afraid it will happen again, specially if the finals are the Kobe vs Lebron Finals.


Lord please let Orlando be the East finalist....



Be careful what you wish for. Orlando is 2-0 against LA this year.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 08:35 PM
Be careful what you wish for. Orlando is 2-0 against LA this year.

Orlando also got some of the most favorable officiating I have seen all season. I am not worried about the Magic whatsoever.

MissinShowtime
03-30-2009, 08:36 PM
You hate it when he plays injured? That is usually a quality that you WANT your star player to have. Would you rather have him be more like Tracy McGrady?

:clap:

Great example of why this thread is ridiculous! A few years ago, TMac was mentioned as one of the best in the game. Now, he's fallen off the face of the NBA and Rocket fans even question whether they are better off without him.

Some people jump on those that don't work hard enough and won't play hurt, but when you have the ultimate competitor in KB24 doing it and he's in a shooting slump....he should shut it down? Ridiculous! The dude shot bad a few games ago but still had 9 assists....now what?

Dr. Buss and the Lakers have a lot invested in Kobe. Believe me, if it was unhealthy and a potential career threat for him to keep it pushin...all neccessary moves would be made. Enough already!

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 08:40 PM
Here is the thing, Lebron SHOULD be playing through these injuries. There are no excuses for him not to. Kobe isn't most players, but Lebron shouldn't be most players either. That is why I am forced to ask the question, is there some other underlying reason to why Lebron missed time when he was injured and could still clearly play? The only reason that makes sense considering some of the statements he made, his actions, and proof that his stats raise considerably against horrid teams, is that he is a stat-padder and was afraid that his stats would be compromised. Basically, he was willing to compromise his team a few wins for the sake of his stats. I don't dig that JayW, I don't like that at all.

I know a thing or two about basketball myself. If a player wants to statpad, he is playing for himself. It's non-efficient basketball. That's Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury-esque basketball. Having better numbers against bad teams also could explain that bad teams are usually bad because of poor defense. Elite teams usually play solid to great defense...that's what seperates contenders from pretenders.

There is a difference between forcing the action like they do, and playing within the flow of the offense. Players like Iverson or Carter also put up big numbers, but many times at the cost of the offensive flow. Not that their individual brilliance isn't effective at times. It's just not as consistent.

With LeBron of course with such statistics, people usually highlight the individual brilliance. Of course there are sceptics to that, and that's only natural. The difference is that Clevelands game plan revolves around LeBrons talents as a basketball player. It also takes a willingness to be coached, and that's LeBrons quality...he still buys into what is asked of him. Aside from being their go to guy he still does the things his teammates do...defend, rebound, set screens and move the basketball.

The reason why he gets the responsibility is in basketball instincts which allow him to make the right play at the right time. I do agree that sometimes LeBron forces the action and tries to do too much...but I also believe he recognizes when he is forcing it. Whenever LeBrons shots aren't falling, you often see him just distributing for whole stretches.

You forget that LeBron is still only 24 years old. Against Dallas you saw him force in the first quarter because his team fell behind early and he took it apon himself, so he tried to redeem himself and forcing a bit several plays. It was obvious from the second he allowed himself to be coached in the second and be more patient on offense...and once he started playing within the flow he mostly made impeccable decisions with the basketball. They still blew out Dallas.

If he really wanted to statpad there was no way he would be that efficient, because he wouldn't have the mentality to give the ball willingly and defer to his teammates. LeBron James still has alot to prove...but I don't think he is selfish to the extent that he would compromise winning for statistics.

That's more a Ricky Davis thing.

Testaverde16
03-30-2009, 08:42 PM
great that you are expressing your opinion like this.... now never post again....

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 08:45 PM
As to the original point of the thread...Kobe isn't being selfish either...the last two seasons he has really been a much better decision maker than in the past. He is still Kobe Bryant and he can hit contested shots better than anyone. But he has found out that picking his spots more and being more patient makes him a more efficient player.

As for shooting himself out of the game...Kobe's mantra is to stay aggressive and continue to be a threat even if percentages suffer. He may not have scored as much, but opponents know he can just flip it on at any time. So it's important as his role on the team is to continue to be a threat. Even if he shoots woeful...it still opens up the game for his teammates.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 09:01 PM
I know a thing or two about basketball myself. If a player wants to statpad, he is playing for himself. It's non-efficient basketball. That's Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury-esque basketball. Having better numbers against bad teams also could explain that bad teams are usually bad because of poor defense. Elite teams usually play solid to great defense...that's what seperates contenders from pretenders.

There are other guys like Kobe who have proven to raise their level of play against the elite. Heck, Bryant's numbers against the poor aren't as good as his numbers against the elite. I would still like to see Lebron take that next step. I mean, come on, having a 2-5 record against the top 3 teams is unacceptable.


There is a difference between forcing the action like they do, and playing within the flow of the offense. Players like Iverson or Carter also put up big numbers, but many times at the cost of the offensive flow. Not that their individual brilliance isn't effective at times. It's just not as consistent.

Lebron forces it a lot as well. He is just a better player than those two. Often times I see him take Cleveland out of its flow as you noted.


With LeBron of course with such statistics, people usually highlight the individual brilliance. Of course there are sceptics to that, and that's only natural. The difference is that Clevelands game plan revolves around LeBrons talents as a basketball player. It also takes a willingness to be coached, and that's LeBrons quality...he still buys into what is asked of him. Aside from being their go to guy he still does the things his teammates do...defend, rebound, set screens and move the basketball.

Lebron is definitely accentuated in the offense. No doubt about it. He probably handles the ball more than any other player. Many times I have seen players like Delonte and Mo give up easy points to hand it to Lebron on the fast-break. Lebron does rebound, but I'm not sure about the defending or moving the basketball part. Sometimes he sets screens, but he only does that because he slips the screen and then heads for another screen to free himself up for an alley-oop dunk.


The reason why he gets the responsibility is in basketball instincts which allow him to make the right play at the right time. I do agree that sometimes LeBron forces the action and tries to do too much...but I also believe he recognizes when he is forcing it. Whenever LeBrons shots aren't falling, you often see him just distributing for whole stretches.


Lebron sometimes is able to recognize when to pull back, but sometimes he gets way too tenative. He almost seems scared of the moment. Other times, he shoots way too many outside jumpers. He still needs to find that balance.


You forget that LeBron is still only 24 years old.

He's been in the league for over 6 years though...This may very well be Lebron's prime. I consider Kobe's best season to be 2003 when he was at the age of 24-25. Jordan's best season was 1988 and he was 24 then. Many players have their very best season young. The thing with Lebron is that he relies on athleticism a lot so his prime may be short-lived.


Against Dallas you saw him force in the first quarter because his team fell behind early and he took it apon himself, so he tried to redeem himself and forcing a bit several plays. It was obvious from the second he allowed himself to be coached in the second and be more patient on offense...and once he started playing within the flow he mostly made impeccable decisions with the basketball. They still blew out Dallas.

If he really wanted to statpad there was no way he would be that efficient, because he wouldn't have the mentality to give the ball willingly and defer to his teammates. LeBron James still has alot to prove...but I don't think he is selfish to the extent that he would compromise winning for statistics.

Yes he would. Lebron constantly drives to the basket. When the paint gets clogged then he passes it out. If not then he drives for an easy bucket. A basic win-win. It isn't that simple, but that is how Lebron plays. He is not necessarily sharing the ball and letting his teammates play their own games (like many thinks assists suggest); rather, the assists and the supposed deferring to his teammates are a product of him just trying to run up his stats. I rarely miss an LBJ game and this seems to be the case. It has definitely lessened this year as he has let Mo handle more, but there are still games where this happens. He forces the ball continuously and plays a "selfish" (if you want to call it that) game...yet he still has many assists.

Truthfully, I think that he did miss those games because he was worried about his own personal stats. That shows that his own stats are more important to him than winning. Although, I think that Lebron thinks that him having higher stats has a direct correlation in winning games so he would be willing to sacrifice some losses as long as his stats are up.


That's more a Ricky Davis thing.

LOL.

ARMIN12NBA
03-30-2009, 09:04 PM
As to the original point of the thread...Kobe isn't being selfish either...the last two seasons he has really been a much better decision maker than in the past. He is still Kobe Bryant and he can hit contested shots better than anyone. But he has found out that picking his spots more and being more patient makes him a more efficient player.

As for shooting himself out of the game...Kobe's mantra is to stay aggressive and continue to be a threat even if percentages suffer. He may not have scored as much, but opponents know he can just flip it on at any time. So it's important as his role on the team is to continue to be a threat. Even if he shoots woeful...it still opens up the game for his teammates.

That is pretty much the same exact comment I posted earlier. :D

EHL
03-30-2009, 09:13 PM
As for shooting himself out of the game...Kobe's mantra is to stay aggressive and continue to be a threat even if percentages suffer. He may not have scored as much, but opponents know he can just flip it on at any time. So it's important as his role on the team is to continue to be a threat. Even if he shoots woeful...it still opens up the game for his teammates.

I dont buy this.



There's a difference in approach IMO. If Kobe demands double or triple team when his shot is off, then he has no reason to not make that extra pass or run that pick and roll with Gasol.


Instead, what I see is Kobe shooting himself out of the slump when a much better option is available (55% Big Man waiting down low)



As for the injury comment, I dont mean it as a criticism on Kobe's passion to play the game but rather his insistence to force the issue.

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 09:32 PM
There are other guys like Kobe who have proven to raise their level of play against the elite. Heck, Bryant's numbers against the poor aren't as good as his numbers against the elite. I would still like to see Lebron take that next step. I mean, come on, having a 2-5 record against the top 3 teams is unacceptable.

I don't know. When San Antonio swept Cleveland in 2007 they were swept by the Cavs in the regular season. In the postseason LeBron has done enough to prove that he has raised his game when it truly counts.



Lebron forces it a lot as well. He is just a better player than those two. Often times I see him take Cleveland out of its flow as you noted.

So does Kobe...that's what players do when they have to carry the offensive load from time to time. Not saying it's a good thing...but all world talents like Kobe and LeBron sometimes need restraint to play within themselves and within the offense. What seperates the Kobes, Wades and LeBrons from people like Anthony, Arenas, VC or Iverson is that they allow themselves to be coached. They have figured out what they need to do to help their team before themselves. You don't hear LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Duncan or Paul complain about minutes or touches...that's what makes them elite. They play team basketball.




Lebron is definitely accentuated in the offense. No doubt about it. He probably handles the ball more than any other player. Many times I have seen players like Delonte and Mo give up easy points to hand it to Lebron on the fast-break. Lebron does rebound, but I'm not sure about the defending or moving the basketball part. Sometimes he sets screens, but he only does that because he slips the screen and then heads for another screen to free himself up for an alley-oop dunk.

That's a designated screen and roll play Mike Brown uses in a small line-up where LeBron plays the four. His defender, usually a power forward does not have the quickness to stay with LeBron as he works his way to the ring. LeBron actually plays more off the ball this year that any previous year. That's the luxury of pairing two ballhandlers (usually Delonte and Williams) in the back court...because both can shoot the ball and run the pick and roll.




Lebron sometimes is able to recognize when to pull back, but sometimes he gets way too tenative. He almost seems scared of the moment. Other times, he shoots way too many outside jumpers. He still needs to find that balance.

I definately agree on the outside jumper part...that's one part of his game I dislike. LeBron is a very streaky shooter that's either hot or cold from deep. When he is hot he is unstoppable...when he is cold defenses can play him loose and clog the paint. Whenever that happens, the small line-up usually gets inserted so the Cavs can play more of an equal opportunity-open floor offense.



He's been in the league for over 6 years though...This may very well be Lebron's prime. I consider Kobe's best season to be 2003 when he was at the age of 24-25. Jordan's best season was 1988 and he was 24 then. Many players have their very best season young. The thing with Lebron is that he relies on athleticism a lot so his prime may be short-lived.

I have to disagree...MJ didn't have a consistent J until he was 26...LeBron is still 24. Even without his athelticism he has the tools to maintain his skills. Magic didn't have the athleticism OR the consistent shooting and he still dominated. If leBron improves his low post game and refines his jump shot he will be dominant for another 8 years if not longer.


Yes he would. Lebron constantly drives to the basket. When the paint gets clogged then he passes it out. If not then he drives for an easy bucket. A basic win-win. It isn't that simple, but that is how Lebron plays. He is not necessarily sharing the ball and letting his teammates play their own games (like many thinks assists suggest); rather, the assists and the supposed deferring to his teammates are a product of him just trying to run up his stats. I rarely miss an LBJ game and this seems to be the case. It has definitely lessened this year as he has let Mo handle more, but there are still games where this happens. He forces the ball continuously and plays a "selfish" (if you want to call it that) game...yet he still has many assists.


I think it's because not many players outside of LeBron can create their own shot with the same efficiency. Mo williams is the only other consistent offensive threat in terms of creating their own shot. Z maybe, but as he ages he is much more used as a pick and pop shooter these days than in the low block. I do agree LeBron has stretches where he can force himself...but he makes sure his teammates don't become bystanders either.


Truthfully, I think that he did miss those games because he was worried about his own personal stats. That shows that his own stats are more important to him than winning. Although, I think that Lebron thinks that him having higher stats has a direct correlation in winning games so he would be willing to sacrifice some losses as long as his stats are up.




I still don't believe this is the truth. He just has to do more than most star players. Tim Duncan has Manu and Parker. Howard has Lewis, Turkoglu and Nelson. Kobe has Gasol, Bynum and Odom...the Celtics have their big three...almost big four with Rondo.

Mo Williams is a terrific player, but if you compare the Cavs second best player to the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics and Magic...LeBron has to do alot more creating offense than most elite stars not names Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade.

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 10:04 PM
I dont buy this.



There's a difference in approach IMO. If Kobe demands double or triple team when his shot is off, then he has no reason to not make that extra pass or run that pick and roll with Gasol.


Instead, what I see is Kobe shooting himself out of the slump when a much better option is available (55% Big Man waiting down low)



As for the injury comment, I dont mean it as a criticism on Kobe's passion to play the game but rather his insistence to force the issue.

I partly agree...but Kobe isn't Ben Gordon, a player who becomes useless whenever his shot is off. Kobe is smart enough to know he can impact the game in other areas when his shot is off...like defense and moving the basketball. But his role for his team is to score first...sometimes being a threat, a presence to score is enough...let alone to actually score.

lakers4sho
03-30-2009, 10:10 PM
Mo Williams is a terrific player, but if you compare the Cavs second best player to the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics and Magic...LeBron has to do alot more creating offense than most elite stars not names Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade.

This is the part I'd have to disagree with. You and I know pretty darn well [ or at least you should ] that the supporting cast is MUCH MUCH more than Mo Williams and Pau Gasol. If you watch Laker games regularly [ which deducing from your posts I doubt ], you'll see that Kobe actually has to do MORE in order get his OTHER teammates to score [ aka Farmar, Sasha, etc ].

That is what currently separates Cleveland from L.A. right now [ sorry Laker fans, but I think right now Cleveland is the better TEAM, although by a small margin ]. LeBron's supporting cast are damn consistent, they play WITHIN their role, and they do it pretty darn well.

Meanwhile, I think that the Lakers supporting cast still carries that hype from last season, which makes people think that Kobe has a FAR better supporting cast than LeBron, especially with Pau on the lineup. But if you look at it further, you'll see that LeBron's guys are much, much, more consistent than Kobe's.

AND they play good defense as well. You can't expect a bit of defense from the other Lakers [ except for probably Bynum ].

ragee
03-30-2009, 10:25 PM
People bash Kobe all the time but know dam well if Kobe was a free agent they would want there team to sign him.

I would not want him in a Blazer or Maverick uniform even if it means championship for either team!

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 10:27 PM
This is the part I'd have to disagree with. You and I know pretty darn well [ or at least you should ] that the supporting cast is MUCH MUCH more than Mo Williams and Pau Gasol. If you watch Laker games regularly [ which deducing from your posts I doubt ], you'll see that Kobe actually has to do MORE in order get his OTHER teammates to score [ aka Farmar, Sasha, etc ].

Overall the Lakers are a much better passing team with more creative ball handlers. They have Farmar, Odom, Gasol, Walton and Fisher aside from Kobe. They are the best damn passing team in the league. That's what makes them so efficient. They have more players that are capable of creating their own offense. Therefor they have more flexibility in matchups than Cleveland from more different positions. I'll pretend not reading the bold part :D



That is what currently separates Cleveland from L.A. right now [ sorry Laker fans, but I think right now Cleveland is the better TEAM, although by a small margin ]. LeBron's supporting cast are damn consistent, they play WITHIN their role, and they do it pretty darn well.

Well said...I do agree the Cavs role players play more defined roles. The Lakers have alot of supporting players with talent...sometimes players get to carried away and digress from their assignment, which can cause consistency issues. But they have two players who can carry a winning team in Gasol and Kobe...whereas the Cavs have only one and that's LeBron.


Meanwhile, I think that the Lakers supporting cast still carries that hype from last season, which makes people think that Kobe has a FAR better supporting cast than LeBron, especially with Pau on the lineup. But if you look at it further, you'll see that LeBron's guys are much, much, more consistent than Kobe's. AND they play good defense as well. You can't expect a bit of defense from the other Lakers [ except for probably Bynum ].


Agreed, but the Lakers have much more versatility on offense...and they have more flexibility. Even if Kobe or Gasol has a bad night, they still have enough offense to give themselves a chance to win. If LeBron struggles, the Cavs supporting cast is more likely to struggle with him. But the difference between this year and previous years is that the vastly improved defense is there to bail them out.

Potentially the Lakers have the chance to be vastly superior to the Cavs in combined talent. But the biggest concern is that the guys besides Kobe and Gasol get motivated enough to carry out their roles with some consistent effort.

If they do the Lakers are the favorite to win it all.

lakers4sho
03-30-2009, 10:53 PM
Overall the Lakers are a much better passing team with more creative ball handlers. They have Farmar, Odom, Gasol, Walton and Fisher aside from Kobe. They are the best damn passing team in the league. That's what makes them so efficient. They have more players that are capable of creating their own offense. Therefor they have more flexibility in matchups than Cleveland from more different positions. I'll pretend not reading the bold part :D

The media might call them "ball handlers", but most of those guys aren't playmakers. Fisher certainly isn't, he's a pretty much an undersized SG. Odom's first instinct is to pass, but he creates too many turnovers for that. Pau creates when the ball is being dumped into him and when he attracts defenders, I'll give him that. Walton, although he can sometimes pass, can't really handle the ball because he is slow, uncoordinated, and unathletic. Farmar...isn't a typical PG by any means. Even assistant coach Kurt Rambis said that he's not the typical playmaker you think he is.

See...that's one of the main differences between the Cavs and the Lakers. The Cavs have multiple playmakers [ LeBron, Mo Williams, Delonte, Boobie Gibston ], that when LeBron sits, he has multiple players that can set up their offense. To be honest with you, the only legitimate playmaker the Lakers have IMO is Kobe. That's why without him, the bench is sometimes lost in the offensive sets that Phil sometimes has to switch OUT OF the triangle.





Well said...I do agree the Cavs role players play more defined roles. The Lakers have alot of supporting players with talent...sometimes players get to carried away and digress from their assignment, which can cause consistency issues. But they have two players who can carry a winning team in Gasol and Kobe...whereas the Cavs have only one and that's LeBron.

The problem is, again, the consistency of the OTHER guys. Even if LeBron isn't shooting well, he can depend on the others to carry the scoring load (and more importantly, the DEFENSIVE load). Meanwhile, when Kobe AND Pau aren't capable of playing their best ball (see game vs. Atlanta yesterday), the other guys are nowhere to be found. And they don't play defense. Bad combination.



Agreed, but the Lakers have much more versatility on offense...and they have more flexibility. Even if Kobe or Gasol has a bad night, they still have enough offense to give themselves a chance to win. If LeBron struggles, the Cavs supporting cast is more likely to struggle with him. But the difference between this year and previous years is that the vastly improved defense is there to bail them out.

I have seen MULTIPLE games where LeBron isn't shooting his best [ games against Clippers, Warriors, Mavericks, to name a few ], but his teammates are there to bail him out. Everytime I watch a Cavs game, it feels like Mo and Delonte are hitting every shot LeBron dishes to them. Ever wonder why LeBron gets so many assists? ;)

And as you mention [ and I don't feel like repeating it over and over again ], the Cavs are a much better defensive team, even when they are struggling offensively.




Potentially the Lakers have the chance to be vastly superior to the Cavs in combined talent. But the biggest concern is that the guys besides Kobe and Gasol get motivated enough to carry out their roles with some consistent effort.

If they do the Lakers are the favorite to win it all.

Exactly :up:

JayW_1023
03-30-2009, 11:05 PM
The media might call them "ball handlers", but most of those guys aren't playmakers. Fisher certainly isn't, he's a pretty much an undersized SG. Odom's first instinct is to pass, but he creates too many turnovers for that. Pau creates when the ball is being dumped into him and when he attracts defenders, I'll give him that. Walton, although he can sometimes pass, can't really handle the ball because he is slow, uncoordinated, and unathletic. Farmar...isn't a typical PG by any means. Even assistant coach Kurt Rambis said that he's not the typical playmaker you think he is.

Point is they have guys with excellent court vision. They are all guys who pass with precision and can space the floor. LeBrons supporting cast is severely flawed as well...they have more guys who are good at one or two things. The Lakers have guys who can do multiple things. For example Wally is good at shooting...but Sasha can not only shoot...he can pass and also play acceptable defense.




See...that's one of the main differences between the Cavs and the Lakers. The Cavs have multiple playmakers [ LeBron, Mo Williams, Delonte, Boobie Gibston ], that when LeBron sits, he has multiple players that can set up their offense. To be honest with you, the only legitimate playmaker the Lakers have IMO is Kobe. That's why without him, the bench is sometimes lost in the offensive sets that Phil sometimes has to switch OUT OF the triangle.


I've noticed the bench these days looks more lost because they don't have a true go to guy in the second unit...a role provided by Odom early in the season. I disagree about the Cavs when LeBron sits...from my observation often the Cavaliers look lost without LeBron and fall in love too much with the outside shot. When the Cavs play a small line-up Delonte and Williams handle the ball more, yes...but when LeBron is at the three he routine handles the main ballhandling duties.




The problem is, again, the consistency of the OTHER guys. Even if LeBron isn't shooting well, he can depend on the others to carry the scoring load (and more importantly, the DEFENSIVE load). Meanwhile, when Kobe AND Pau aren't capable of playing their best ball (see game vs. Atlanta yesterday), the other guys are nowhere to be found. And they don't play defense. Bad combination.


That's more a mentality thing. I agree that the Cavs supporting cast play harder more often. But when both teams are sharp, like in the Lakers two games against Cleveland this season...you see the talent level and versatility will overwhelm the Cavs.




I have seen MULTIPLE games where LeBron isn't shooting his best [ games against Clippers, Warriors, Mavericks, to name a few ], but his teammates are there to bail him out. Everytime I watch a Cavs game, it feels like Mo and Delonte are hitting every shot LeBron dishes to them. Ever wonder why LeBron gets so many assists? ;)

Because he always creates a matchup problem...wether it's his strength, speed, quickness or length...which forces the defense to help. LeBron finds the open guys as the defense collapses. I disagree that's bailing out...that's making the game easier for your teammates.


And as you mention [ and I don't feel like repeating it over and over again ], the Cavs are a much better defensive team, even when they are struggling offensively.

I wholeheartedly agree there. The Lakers are the leagues best offensive team...but the Cavs are definately the best defensive team right now.





Exactly :up:[/QUOTE]

Hellcrooner
03-30-2009, 11:12 PM
Hey Ariza is capable of good D and so is S Brown.

lakers4sho
03-30-2009, 11:29 PM
Hey Ariza is capable of good D and so is S Brown.

...and the others??

Hellcrooner
03-31-2009, 12:08 AM
Fisher D is Alright so is Powells and Mbengas.

Pau is an Underated Defender.

check last years NUmbers by Camby, Boozer, Td and Kg against Pau in the Poffs.

G-Funk
03-31-2009, 12:25 AM
shaq won those championships

And Kobe just sat there looking as the 12th man on the team, he was just the water boy right? Just another Mark Madson. Ur comment is really pathetic, either it shows how much u hate Kobe or how much you don't know about B-Ball I think is a combination of both.

G-Funk
03-31-2009, 12:27 AM
I'm not sure how my credibility would be hurt when I simply stated a cold hard fact. Do you want me to lie and say Lebron did not sit nearly two weeks with a sprained pinky on his non-shooting hand? IMO, lying hurts somebody's credibility more than telling the truth...

You can just show that video where it took longer for Lebron to get up then the Ref.

lakers4sho
03-31-2009, 12:58 AM
Fisher D is Alright so is Powells and Mbengas.

Pau is an Underated Defender.

check last years NUmbers by Camby, Boozer, Td and Kg against Pau in the Poffs.

a) Fisher's D ISN'T alright...have you seen Laker games this season??

b) We're talking about team defense. Collectively the Lakers aren't a good defensive ballclub.

hotdogbun
03-31-2009, 01:08 AM
Don be blind, he was the SECOND option those years, the big mamooth was the one that brought those titles and would have brought them even if eddie Jones was still around instead of kobe.

lol stop hatin kobe > eddie jones. so why are you blaming kobe for the 2004 finals loss and not shaq. but in 00-02 you give all the credit to shaq.

EHL
03-31-2009, 01:31 AM
lol stop hatin kobe > eddie jones. so why are you blaming kobe for the 2004 finals loss and not shaq. but in 00-02 you give all the credit to shaq.

Because Kobe wanted the lead role and he got it against the Pistons series (see Kobe and Shaq's FG attempts)

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 01:57 AM
Fisher D is Alright so is Powells and Mbengas.

Pau is an Underated Defender.

check last years NUmbers by Camby, Boozer, Td and Kg against Pau in the Poffs.

Pau has been playing very bad help defense lately. His rotations have made me cry on more than one occasion because he never seems to know when and even where to rotate. He will have to improve that area (or at least we have to get Bynum back).

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 02:08 AM
Point is they have guys with excellent court vision. They are all guys who pass with precision and can space the floor. LeBrons supporting cast is severely flawed as well...they have more guys who are good at one or two things. The Lakers have guys who can do multiple things. For example Wally is good at shooting...but Sasha can not only shoot...he can pass and also play acceptable defense.

I think you are completely wrong here JayW and as a Spurs fan, you should know that tweeners do not win championships. Rather, role players who have specific jobs and carry them to the best of their abilities on a night in and night out basis. The Spurs never had the best talent or overall talent. Simply put, they had blue collar guys who did their jobs.

Lebron's supporting cast has a bunch of players who ARE good at one or two things. The thing is, is that they are a perfect compliment to Lebron and they are ridiculously consistent. They have 5 knockdown shooters. They have the designated rebounders and the designated defensive players. His role players carry out their jobs consistently.

The Lakers? They have on outside shooter in Fisher and then a bunch of tweeners. Sure, they are versatile, but they can't do any thing particularly well. Farmar? He can do some things marginally well, but he is awfully inconsistent and his ego gets in the way. Sasha CANNOT shoot the ball anymore whatsoever and he has been awful defensively. Luke is OK at some things, but he has no purpose when Bynum and Gasol aren't on the floor together. The Lakers bench is basically useless. They don't have those hard-nosed, consistent players. In the starting line-up, there is Fisher but he is literally non-existent defensively and takes to many ill advised shots offensively. He is quickly becoming one of the more overrated players in the league. Lamar is way too inconsistent to ever count on him. Ariza has been doing everything well as of late and Pau does his thing on a night to night basis offensively (nothing much defensively).

Here is the thing, JayW, although the talent may not be as good on paper, the Cavs role players are more consistent and they are literally great at their specific jobs. The Lakers have guys who are average in a couple areas. Look at it from a coaching standpoint, who would you rather have? Lebron's supporting cast opens up the floor for him offensively and they rebound/defend.

hotdogbun
03-31-2009, 03:13 AM
Because Kobe wanted the lead role and he got it against the Pistons series (see Kobe and Shaq's FG attempts)

if shaq was so good and if he really wanted to win then why didnt he ask for the lead role? and how did you know that kobe asked for the lead role and not shaq isnt that good anymore to lead the lakers

JabberJaw
03-31-2009, 03:48 AM
Its so funny how people go on these forums and blast someone like Kobe, who is arguably the best player in the game today, after a rough stretch of a few games. You don't like how he plays injured? uh ok...Yeah Kobe, what were you thinking? You should sit out half the season, like you were Tracy McGrady. I'm a Laker fan, but I hate it how fickle our fans can be. It's like, we have the second best record in the league, and we are complaining. This happens everytime we lose. Calm down people! I am sure that Phil will give our guys some rest. In the mean time, Kobe will need to find his flow again, and hopefully our bench boys will step it up. I'm also sure its kind of tough to get up for all the remaining games, after you have already clinched the West. Like Kobe said, "either way we have to win on the road. Home court advantage is great, but doesn't mean anything if you can't win on the road."

Now, enough with these dumb threads coming from LAKER FANS, that bash our best player for "playing injured" and "shooting too much". I don't hear Cavs fans complaining that Lebron is shooting too much when they lose and he has a bad game, or Pierce for Boston, or D.Wade...It just gets old.

Lakersfan2483
03-31-2009, 03:55 AM
Then why are your statements (and thread) about Kobe so ridiculous. I mean, you would seriously be out of your mind if you think Eddie and Exel would have produced a title instead of Kobe. Especially considering they had a few years to do so and did not produce a single title (instead they got swept).

Like I said, read MADMENS BALL (Gasol is on the cover by the way...extra incentive to buy it :D).

I am glad you pointed that out, Shaq played with both Eddie and Nick Van Exel and didn't win a title with them. When Kobe took his game to another level, the Shaq/Kobe led lakers won 3 rings.

JayW_1023
03-31-2009, 06:37 AM
I think you are completely wrong here JayW and as a Spurs fan, you should know that tweeners do not win championships. Rather, role players who have specific jobs and carry them to the best of their abilities on a night in and night out basis. The Spurs never had the best talent or overall talent. Simply put, they had blue collar guys who did their jobs.

Lebron's supporting cast has a bunch of players who ARE good at one or two things. The thing is, is that they are a perfect compliment to Lebron and they are ridiculously consistent. They have 5 knockdown shooters. They have the designated rebounders and the designated defensive players. His role players carry out their jobs consistently.

The Lakers? They have on outside shooter in Fisher and then a bunch of tweeners. Sure, they are versatile, but they can't do any thing particularly well. Farmar? He can do some things marginally well, but he is awfully inconsistent and his ego gets in the way. Sasha CANNOT shoot the ball anymore whatsoever and he has been awful defensively. Luke is OK at some things, but he has no purpose when Bynum and Gasol aren't on the floor together. The Lakers bench is basically useless. They don't have those hard-nosed, consistent players. In the starting line-up, there is Fisher but he is literally non-existent defensively and takes to many ill advised shots offensively. He is quickly becoming one of the more overrated players in the league. Lamar is way too inconsistent to ever count on him. Ariza has been doing everything well as of late and Pau does his thing on a night to night basis offensively (nothing much defensively).

Here is the thing, JayW, although the talent may not be as good on paper, the Cavs role players are more consistent and they are literally great at their specific jobs. The Lakers have guys who are average in a couple areas. Look at it from a coaching standpoint, who would you rather have? Lebron's supporting cast opens up the floor for him offensively and they rebound/defend.

I agree that the Cavs players accept their roles more...but I think you are totally underrating your own team. Heck Vladimir Radmanovich was traded to Charlotte and started playing really well there...that's your expendable guy.

Any team that has had the luxury of putting Odom off the bench is a damn talented offensive team. You can't deny this. It's also a matter of which system to play. With the triangle...you need alot of guys who can handle the ball and make plays. And the Lakers have alot of players with great court vision.

For the Cavs and Lakers they have exactly the personel that makes them carry out the game play most efficiently. The triangle preaches ball movement, floor spacing and moving without the ball. They have two of the best passing bigs in Odom and Gasol, both mobile and smart (well Gasol anyway, I agree Odom lacks consistency)...both guys are perfect for the triangle. As great as Kobe is...he has an easier time focussing on scoring than LeBron.

The Cavs are more revolved on the matchup problems LeBron creates night in night out. LeBron just has to create more because they don't have much players who can create for themselves as The Lakers.

Hotone1401
03-31-2009, 06:55 AM
even if his not hot and has missed 20 straight shots i still would want kobe to take the shot for my team. cuz i always believe that kobe's shots will go in. and he has proven that in his career. even if he is 3-20 or somthing like that he will still have the guts to shoot and make the shot.

whats better?
player 15/15 from the field until he misses the shot to win it to become 15/16
or a
player 0/15 from the field until he makes the shot to win it to become 1/16?

stats suck whats important is the wins. and the lakers are now 58-15

You seem a little misled but what I was saying because you are missing the point smart guy. Yes, statistics do suck and wins are more important but how come Kobe forgets that at times? It's not about stats with me man...I'm only interested in how the team plays as a whole. I think late in the 4th qtr is the time for Kobe to go one on one and run high pick & rolls w/ Gasol. Anytime before that should be about team ball. He knows that but it seems as though he is more in to proving something to everybody else. We all know Kobe is great but it doesn't hurt to see him take a backseat when he doesn't have it going and a fellow all-star teammate (Gasol) does, which has been the case lately.

Kobe has been in a bit of a shooting slump and I'm sure that will pass. Pau Gasol has been on a tear and shooting a ridiculously high FG% so why not run the offense through him??? That would establish a balanced inside/outside game which any basketball mind would know, controls tempo and momentum of a game. Not to mention, Kobe could just pick and choose his spots by cutting and diving toward the basket. All of which I think we will see come playoff time. I want you to know I don't care how many shots Kobe takes. I will admit I do get frustrated with his shot selection at times it's not because he can't make the shots because he can...it's the fact that he has the ability to get much easier shots for him and his teammates if he wasn't always out trying to make tough contested shots. WE ALL FREAKING SEE IT!!! Kobe is the greatest and most dynamic offensive player in the league. Why the hell does he always settle for contested jumpers???? It blows my mind at times but I think it has something to do with fatigue and lack of intensity because it is just a regular season game. I know this cuz that is how I play when I'm tired or lazy. If I really want to win, I'm attacking the basket non stop and moving the ball to my teammates period.

The way I see it...Kobe has just been selfish lately and that isn't bad for me to say cuz I'm a fan who can support and critique the guy. Like I said, I know all of this will change come playoff time but you and some other blind Laker fans can't deal with anybody saying anything negative about Kobe. Not even from Laker and Kobe fans themselves. Kobe isn't perfect guys! Just my thoughts.

TMAC94
03-31-2009, 09:25 AM
its only been 2 poor games?

DwillKB8
03-31-2009, 03:13 PM
Really. Im sick of his chucking ways. And I hate it when he plays injured.


I mean, if you're not 100% and shooting 30% on the floor, please get some rest and let Pau Gasol take over for just a game or two. Seriously!!! We know you're a warrior but that tough attitude is getting old. Use your common sense and get healthy.

Ummm....I would give my left nut for the mamba in a Jazz uniform!!

ARMIN12NBA
03-31-2009, 03:34 PM
I agree that the Cavs players accept their roles more...but I think you are totally underrating your own team. Heck Vladimir Radmanovich was traded to Charlotte and started playing really well there...that's your expendable guy.

Any team that has had the luxury of putting Odom off the bench is a damn talented offensive team. You can't deny this. It's also a matter of which system to play. With the triangle...you need alot of guys who can handle the ball and make plays. And the Lakers have alot of players with great court vision.

For the Cavs and Lakers they have exactly the personel that makes them carry out the game play most efficiently. The triangle preaches ball movement, floor spacing and moving without the ball. They have two of the best passing bigs in Odom and Gasol, both mobile and smart (well Gasol anyway, I agree Odom lacks consistency)...both guys are perfect for the triangle. As great as Kobe is...he has an easier time focussing on scoring than LeBron.

The Cavs are more revolved on the matchup problems LeBron creates night in night out. LeBron just has to create more because they don't have much players who can create for themselves as The Lakers.

Not really. The lack of perimeter shooting and Gasol clogging up the lane forces Kobe to be more of a jump-shooter. Lebron's team is perfect in a sense that they are built to open up the lane for Lebron to drive and kick. Lebron doesn't have to deal with the "nuisance" of a clogged paint nearly as much as Bryant does. Imagine if Lebron had only 1 outside shooter and a couple big men who would clog his paint. We would see his shooting percentages dip big time as well as his assist numbers.

JayW_1023
04-01-2009, 04:15 AM
Not really. The lack of perimeter shooting and Gasol clogging up the lane forces Kobe to be more of a jump-shooter. Lebron's team is perfect in a sense that they are built to open up the lane for Lebron to drive and kick. Lebron doesn't have to deal with the "nuisance" of a clogged paint nearly as much as Bryant does. We would see his shooting percentages dip big time as well as his assist numbers.


I've seen enough Laker games to know that Pau Gasol doesn't 'clog up' the paint. Gasol is the best passer out of the high post of any big guy in the league. With his ability to play inside out he is game is taylor suited for the triangle...he can draw help and quick it out to cutters through the lane. That's the luxury of having a big who can shoot the perimeter J. LeBron has that luxury too with Z whenever he penetrates off screens.

The triangle offense doesn't require alot of eloborate dribbling...it's an offense where you pass the ball to space the floor and have non ball handlers move without the ball. It's essential to read your teammates movements and make pinpoint passes. The Lakers are the best passing team in basketball. They can design plays where Odom, Gasol, Walton and Bryant all initiate the offense. The triangle doesn't really need one specific playmaker if you have enough skilled players who can see the floor.

The more traditional offenses always require a primary designated ball-handler...in Cleveland that happens to be LeBron James. But as you pointed out, if LeBron struggles offensively...they have Mo Williams and West as ball handlers. In this situation, Mike Brown often opts for LBJ to play at the powerforward spot and play more off the ball.

If Kobe had LeBrons supporting cast his assists and rebounds would probably go up significantly...his FG% would prolly go down a notch for the simple fact that LBJ's supporting cast doesn't have as many players who can create their own offense...so Kobe would probably have to shoot the ball more.

If LeBron had Kobe's supporting cast...LeBron would be absolutely scary. With the amount of shooters the Lakers have...defenses are less likely to collapse on LeBron, and with a stretched defense, LeBron would be able to take advantage of his physical dominance even more.

ddaughtry
04-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Kobe's ego is why he is so great. The only way to get out of a shooting slump is to keep shooting. The Lakers haven't shot terribly the last two games because of Kobe. It has been a team effort. Everytime the Lakers lose, some hating starts. Please stop it. We are 58 - 16. We will be alright.