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View Full Version : How would a Melo and allstar big man combo do?



JordansBulls
03-26-2009, 10:14 PM
How would a Melo and allstar big man combo do?

Like Melo with David West, Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, etc.

td0tsfinest
03-26-2009, 10:34 PM
i don't know about david west but any of those other guys would definitely look scary alongside melo

GoatMilk
03-26-2009, 10:46 PM
DWest is a part of CP. he's no all-star
it's like a truck with a boat hitched on it

Kyben36
03-26-2009, 10:53 PM
Better, I like What Arizona is doing in the NCAA tourny, They have 3 main peices, A PG ( Billups ) a Wing ( Melo ) and a Big ( ? ) all scoring 15+ points, making them all threats, If you guys had a star Big man, You would be a great team. Right now your good, but Big = Great

Raptor-54
03-26-2009, 11:01 PM
melo and bosh togather will go far

billups
smith
melo
bosh
nene

scaryyy

KB24PG16
03-26-2009, 11:20 PM
is melo a free agent in 2010

superkegger
03-26-2009, 11:21 PM
I think that it would clearly make Melo a more dangerous player. If you have an all star big you have to cover on the block, you can't commit the midrange defense that you normally do to Melo. And if you do, he's smart enough to beat you by passing to his big. While Melo and Kobe are very different players, they're both great scorers, and I think it's a similar situation, Kobe got pau and the Lakers take off. Give Melo a Pau, they'd be scary ****ing good.

DenButsu
03-26-2009, 11:31 PM
In my opinion, Nene is an "All-Star big man" for all practical purposes. He was leading the league in fg% for most of the season (now is 2nd behind Shaq), is the best stealing center in the league (1.22 per game) while also playing very solid man-to-man defense, is having a career season with 14.6/7.8/1.3 blk.

The biggest problem that Billups-Melo-Nene has (regardless of who's at the 2 and 4) is ball movement. And to me, this is on Chauncey as much as the other two, although they certainly shoulder their share of the responsibility for it, too.

This season the Nuggets are averaging 21.9 assists per game. In games where they dish out 22 or more, they're 29-6 (.829). In games where they only serve 21 or fewer they're 17-20 (.459). Sometimes their low assist games come as a result of facing a stifling defense. But much more often, it's just a lapse of focus and energy, a failure to maintain a constant, conscious effort to keep their bodies moving around the court to break apart defenses and keep the ball moving around the court to get better, more open looks at the basket and better floor spacing.

I have to say that the chemistry between the 3 hasn't progressed as far as I would have liked to see by this point in the season, although the overall trajectory remains one of improvement. With all three of them locked in on the Nuggets roster throught 2011 or 12, and with a proper offseason and training camp together (imagine how different last year's training camp might have been if the AI-Billups trade had been pulled in the offseason), I expect to see continued improvement in their play together next season.

It should be noted, too, that a lot of Melo's perceived drop off this season is only that - perceived - while he's putting together probably the best defensive season of his career, and by far his best 3-shooting season. There are things that sometimes disappoint me about Melo - for example, he's so versatile on offense when he puts his mind to it, but he tends to get in these ruts of settling for jumpers and ill-advised "head down to the basket" drives that get him in trouble with offensive fouls. But when Billups is finding him in good spots, when Nene and K-Mart are actually doing a good job of cutting and opening up lanes, and when Melo at the same time keeps his head up and the option open for taking the shot or finding Nene or Chauncey for open dunks or 3s, we are definitely seeing the Nuggets play some much more beautiful basketball than they had been for the past couple of seasons.

DenButsu
03-26-2009, 11:37 PM
:laugh2:

I forgot to make the main point I was trying to make in that last post, which is that Melo already possesses the tools to be a much more dangerous player, and the Nuggets are already equipped to be a much more dangerous team than they have been thus far this season. But the biggest thing holding the Nuggets back is their own mental weakness, their own lack of focus and discipline to play team basketball on the court. And as the leaders of the team, the lion's share of the blame for this goes on Melo and Chauncey (although every man on the roster is certainly a culprit). Or in other words, Melo now has his big man combo and his pg combo, he just needs to remember that for the full 37 or so minutes that he's on the court (and the other dudes need to remember it, too).

29$JerZ
03-26-2009, 11:37 PM
In my opinion, Nene is an "All-Star big man" for all practical purposes. He was leading the league in fg% for most of the season (now is 2nd behind Shaq), is the best stealing center in the league (1.22 per game) while also playing very solid man-to-man defense, is having a career season with 14.6/7.8/1.3 blk. http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/images/smilies/sasmokin.gif

The biggest problem that Billups-Melo-Nene has (regardless of who's at the 2 and 4) is ball movement. And to me, this is on Chauncey as much as the other two, although they certainly shoulder their share of the responsibility for it, too.

This season the Nuggets are averaging 21.9 assists per game. In games where they dish out 22 or more, they're 29-6 (.829). In games where they only serve 21 or fewer they're 17-20 (.459). Sometimes their low assist games come as a result of facing a stifling defense. But much more often, it's just a lapse of focus and energy, a failure to maintain a constant, conscious effort to keep their bodies moving around the court to break apart defenses and keep the ball moving around the court to get better, more open looks at the basket and better floor spacing.

I have to say that the chemistry between the 3 hasn't progressed as far as I would have liked to see by this point in the season, although the overall trajectory remains one of improvement. With all three of them locked in on the Nuggets roster throught 2011 or 12, and with a proper offseason and training camp together (imagine how different last year's training camp might have been if the AI-Billups trade had been pulled in the offseason), I expect to see continued improvement in their play together next season.

It should be noted, too, that a lot of Melo's perceived drop off this season is only that - perceived - while he's putting together probably the best defensive season of his career, and by far his best 3-shooting season. There are things that sometimes disappoint me about Melo - for example, he's so versatile on offense when he puts his mind to it, but he tends to get in these ruts of settling for jumpers and ill-advised "head down to the basket" drives that get him in trouble with offensive fouls. But when Billups is finding him in good spots, when Nene and K-Mart are actually doing a good job of cutting and opening up lanes, and when Melo at the same time keeps his head up and the option open for taking the shot or finding Nene or Chauncey for open dunks or 3s, we are definitely seeing the Nuggets play some much more beautiful basketball than they had been for the past couple of seasons.

Agreed

Honestly I think a solid Pg like Billups helps Carmelo's game more than a big man. Nene is doing fine for them since he is finally healthy and able to contribute to the Nuggets, Defense helps you win especially in the West.

As for continuity its going to take time considering having the roster focus on a Carmelo/AI tandem even if it didn't last. Defensively they are set but having capable scorers like J.R and Carmelo co-existing makes ball movement stop at times. Offseason will be a good chance for the Nuggets to improve that area. Billups can't do everything.

Kohaku
03-26-2009, 11:43 PM
is melo a free agent in 2010

2011. He says he's lucky he doesn't have to worry about 2010 for the time being lol.

DenButsu
03-27-2009, 12:01 AM
2011

And he has a player option for $18,518,575 in 2011-12. I'm guessing he might just go ahead and take that... :rolleyes:

JordansBulls
03-27-2009, 12:23 AM
melo and bosh togather will go far

billups
smith
melo
bosh
nene

scaryyy

I had Bosh in mind

Chronz
03-27-2009, 12:42 AM
He already has an All-Star Bigman, Id take Nene over West any day.

KobeIs
03-27-2009, 01:44 AM
How would a Melo and allstar big man combo do?

Like Melo with David West, Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, etc.

how about amare? i think melo would go well with a big man that can finish or throw it down.

iono about yao tho because of the injury issue but with that aside, deym

hotdogbun
03-27-2009, 02:35 AM
melo + dwight = game over

Hotone1401
03-27-2009, 02:46 AM
melo + dwight = game over

Game over?? Meaning they would be a lock to win the Finals? Still isn't enough in my opinion...Melo just seems like a player who needs a good PG to play along with, and maybe more so than a big man.

adamsison
03-27-2009, 08:38 AM
i think they are equal to melos game...look @ melos ppg with andre miller! avg 30ppg pretty much.

but on the other hand, like kobe if had a gasol type big man in the post who can score and pass, melo would still be very effective.

nonetheless, i like the direction the nuggets are going in. as most people have said here, its just the focus of the Nuggets that needs to stay sharp for 48mins. when we are executing our offense, and hustling on defense i think we can beat any team (even in a seven game series). also play less minutes to AC and Kleiza lol. (wish we traded for david lee when we had the chance!)

Melo has been my favorite player since he joined the league (even since his 1 syracuse year). He converted me into a nuggets fan.

JordansBulls
03-27-2009, 11:13 AM
I was more curious on how a Melo and Yao combo would have done on the Rockets from 2005 until now instead of T-mac and Yao.

durqtitan
03-27-2009, 12:13 PM
Melo can't be successful without a distributing point guard. He is a second rate star just like Glen Rice and those guys. He shoots too much, his basketball i.q. seems very low, but he is an amazingly talented guy. Him and a Big man would be ok; however Melo, a star big, and a true point guard (look what Billups has done for him) would be a legit force.

nalej85
03-27-2009, 01:28 PM
While Amare and Melo look good on paper..I don't think both of their heads could fit into the locker room @ the same time..Melo would work nicely with a very unselfish big man...Yao,Brand,Gasol,Howard,Bosh..On an interesting note, Nuggets have a great team already...I think Chris Anderson should start at center. His defense/rebounding/energy is spectacular

DitchDat
03-27-2009, 01:36 PM
Billups - Anthony - Jamison would be nice too

EX-TREME
03-27-2009, 01:43 PM
Billups - Anthony - Jamison would be nice too

:nod:

Chronz
03-27-2009, 03:53 PM
I was more curious on how a Melo and Yao combo would have done on the Rockets from 2005 until now instead of T-mac and Yao.
Instead of getting the 4th or 5th seed and losing to a superior team in 7 they would get swept against a 2/3 seed.

charlsdq7
03-27-2009, 04:15 PM
hell prolly have a better chance of goin deeper in da playoffs

Sportfan
03-27-2009, 05:56 PM
How would a Melo and allstar big man combo do?

Like Melo with David West, Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, etc.

thats too big of a range. I mean with Ming or Howard that nuggets would be beast. With Gasol they would still be a muc better team. But West wouldnt provide too much of a difference only a couple games better

DenButsu
03-27-2009, 07:08 PM
I think another way this question might be framed could just be, "How far would the Nuggets have gone this season if K-Mart could shoot?" I mean, in principle I really love the Nuggets frontcourt as currently constructed. Melo, one of the most versatile scorers in the league (when he's playing on top of his game), K-Mart, a lock-down defender (albeit slightly undersized at the 4) who can mix it up in the paint, and Nene, one of the best finishers in the league, a big body who can D up against the other bigs they go up against. I see the primary weakness there as K-Mart's lame jump shooting ability. Melo always plays down on the block and always is doubled, and Nene and K-Mart are really both only deadly if they get the ball close to the rim. So neither Nene or K really have the ability to stretch the D out of the paint and give Melo more space to operate... if K-Mart drifts out to the wings, he can safely be ignored. Nene has a decent 15-footer but by no means does he need to be doubled or anything when he's out at that range. So all season long what we've seen opposing defenses do is just pack the paint (where, with 3 guys there, Melo, K and Nene can all be effectively defended) and force Denver to shoot jumpers from the perimether, where Karl does not put Billups and J.R. together on the floor nearly enough, leaving only one of them out there who can be doubled, since the other guard is either Dahntay Jones or Anthony Carter, and neither of them can shoot.

So, in theory, if you replace K-Mart with another big who can defend but can also actually hit mid-range and outside shots - say, in the mold of Sheed for example - I think this frontcourt becomes rock solid.

LTS
03-27-2009, 07:45 PM
Melo as a person I think benefits more from a good PG the most since he already has one I think thats the best thing for him if we talk specifically about the Nuggets the best place to improve is PF

JordansBulls
03-27-2009, 11:14 PM
Instead of getting the 4th or 5th seed and losing to a superior team in 7 they would get swept against a 2/3 seed.

How is a team that is a 4th seed playing against a superior team in a 5th seed?

EddieB
03-27-2009, 11:17 PM
no where

Chronz
03-27-2009, 11:58 PM
How is a team that is a 4th seed playing against a superior team in a 5th seed?
By matching up against a team that has more all-around ability, that didnt feast on bottom feeders and played well against playoff teams or beneath their potential in the regular season or played above their potential in the post season. There all sorts of ways, depends on the players consistency in both seasons.

JordansBulls
03-30-2009, 09:16 PM
By matching up against a team that has more all-around ability, that didnt feast on bottom feeders and played well against playoff teams or beneath their potential in the regular season or played above their potential in the post season. There all sorts of ways, depends on the players consistency in both seasons.

Except Houston was the superior team in 2007.

EHL
03-30-2009, 09:18 PM
He already has an All-Star Bigman, Id take Nene over West any day.

Correct.

JordansBulls
03-30-2009, 11:47 PM
He already has an All-Star Bigman, Id take Nene over West any day.

:speechless:

DenButsu
03-31-2009, 12:10 AM
:speechless:

I think the West of this and last season is somewhat reminiscent of the K-Mart of 2002-2004. Remove CP3 from the equation (as Kenyon lost Kidd when he was traded to Denver), and overnight he's a lesser player.

RealistRocket34
03-31-2009, 12:16 AM
Melo would work well with Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard. Melo needs to score otherwise he's useless, he needs to team up with a Big man that doesn't mean being the 2nd option and isn't that big time of a scorer in the post. Gasol is a very good and underrated post player, but he's a very good passer as well and doesn't mind being the 2nd option. Howard isn't a go to guy on offense yet at this point of his career though he would be helpful to Melo on defense and rebounding

Chronz
03-31-2009, 01:05 AM
Except Houston was the superior team in 2007.
Look up their records vs playoff teams, particularly the western ones. Coupled with the fact that they could expose Yao defensively better than any team in the league its no wonder why they are the superior team in head 2 head matchups with the Rockets. Its close, but the Rockets wouldve done alot better against any other team than them. Its always been like that. If Landry/Scola wouldve been there for 2007 then its no question, but aside from Tmac/Yao the team had no one to deliver offensively. You cant ask 2 players to beat a collection of 4 All-Stars however trivial their selections were, they still had 4 all-stars and a deep bench (Milsap, Fisher, Harpring, 2 of these guys wouldve started for the Rockets). The fact that Luther Head was one of the teams key bench players says alot about their talent pool.

JordansBulls
03-31-2009, 08:08 AM
I think the West of this and last season is somewhat reminiscent of the K-Mart of 2002-2004. Remove CP3 from the equation (as Kenyon lost Kidd when he was traded to Denver), and overnight he's a lesser player.

I can agree with that.

Chronz
04-01-2009, 12:58 AM
I think the West of this and last season is somewhat reminiscent of the K-Mart of 2002-2004. Remove CP3 from the equation (as Kenyon lost Kidd when he was traded to Denver), and overnight he's a lesser player.

Are you saying playing with Kidd prevented his injuries? Cuz aside from that hes been the same exact player, the one year he was healthy he was producing at exactly the same rate as he did before. West is still good without CP3, Nene is just a better inside threat, defender and his jumper is improved.

DenButsu
04-01-2009, 01:19 AM
Are you saying playing with Kidd prevented his injuries? Cuz aside from that hes been the same exact player, the one year he was healthy he was producing at exactly the same rate as he did before. West is still good without CP3, Nene is just a better inside threat, defender and his jumper is improved.

Wait, I'm confused, you are talking about K-Mart and not Nene, right?

Assuming that's the case, then two things I'd point out about that are 1) when K-Mart first arrived in Denver, he was getting fed well by Andre Miller, who specializes, really, in getting easy looks and lobs for inside guys (I'd overloooked this when making the above post - I was really comparing NJ days and now); and 2) the one area that did drop off noticeably (albeit not TOO badly) was his rebounding, and that's something he's never really recovered again. The intial drop could probably be attributed to playing alongside Camby, I guess. But now, it's my biggest disappointment of his game these days (other than just taking too many shots a lot of the time). I really can't account for it, either. He's got his hops pretty much all the way back. I don't know if it's because the rebounding is more evenly distributed between the the frontcourt dudes, or more of it is being picked up by the reserves, or what.

Anyways, part of my judgment is not based on his numbers alone, but based on the frustrating lack of impact he made when he landed on the Nuggets roster. As far as intangibles go, for New Jersey he was a real impact player, a force to be reckoned with, and he really never made that kind of splash in Denver, even in that first season when his numbers were still strong. It could be a mistaken impression on my part, I guess, but I really don't think so. I feel pretty solid in my understanding of the beats of the Nuggets, and I think in this case the statistical similarities between his last NJ season and his first DEN season belie a deeper underlying difference in his ability (or lack thereof) to really influence the outcome of games in a big way, shift momentum dramatically, etc. He seemed to kind of constantly fall short of delivering that.

Chronz
04-01-2009, 07:21 AM
Wait, I'm confused, you are talking about K-Mart and not Nene, right?

Assuming that's the case, then two things I'd point out about that are 1) when K-Mart first arrived in Denver, he was getting fed well by Andre Miller, who specializes, really, in getting easy looks and lobs for inside guys (I'd overloooked this when making the above post - I was really comparing NJ days and now);
Yea that guy, comparing K-Mart of NJ to now has had more to due with his injuries and natural decline more than anything. As for Andre Miller, well isnt that the PG's job? I understand hes better than most but is he better than Kidd? Hes probably up there with him but exactly how big of a difference do you think he makes?

Its true K-Mart for his career hes been a 50.2% shooter with Miller on the court and 48% off it (With higher turnover rates and whatnot) but the same is true for Miller, hes shot a higher% and his assist tallies are higher when K-Mart was on the court with him for a few of those years. Though its more of a subtle improvement in his case (Because when K-Mart sat either Nene or Melo were still with him), the point remains that its a mutually beneficial relationship, the option of the lob makes the PG more dangerous in transition or in PnR situations, so I never saw the point of pointing this out. I could understand if the player is completely reliant on any 1 player all the time but its not like these guys go from valuable to scrubs.

PS For their careers both West and CP3 have shot a higher% when on the court together, aside from CP3's rookie season, though his passing efficiency was higher. We're talking about a pretty subtle difference here.



and 2) the one area that did drop off noticeably (albeit not TOO badly) was his rebounding, and that's something he's never really recovered again. The intial drop could probably be attributed to playing alongside Camby, I guess. But now, it's my biggest disappointment of his game these days (other than just taking too many shots a lot of the time). I really can't account for it, either. He's got his hops pretty much all the way back. I don't know if it's because the rebounding is more evenly distributed between the the frontcourt dudes, or more of it is being picked up by the reserves, or what.

Overall (Offensive/Defensive) hes always been a mediocre if not sporadic rebounder in New Jersey with the exception of 1 year, his contract year also if you look at the disparity of his rebounding between conferences, its pretty significant. Perhaps due to the frontcourt dominance going on at the time but this led many to forecast a decline in his rebounding numbers in Denver.

Camby has played a role in hogging some of the interior boards hes generally averaged a rebound more when hes not on the floor throughout their stay together but the Nuggets have usually been a poor rebounding team so there should be a fair share for him to have corralled, especially without Kidd around. What might have played a role was the absence of Jason Collins, he was one of those guys who does a great job boxing out and allowing his teammates to grab the board but that doesnt explain how hes gone from decent to Channing Frye for you guys. K-Mart has had 1 downright pathetic rebounding year for NJ so atleast its not that bad.

This year hes averaged more Reb's alongside Nene than Anderson, but its not enough to account for such a steep drop off from his past seasons. There really nothing else to be said except that K-Mart just doesnt have it anymore, his decline has impacted Melo's #'s abit, his highest rebounding numbers come when K-Mart and Kleiza are on the court with him. Though its not much to brag about when its at the expense of the teams rebounding efficiency. You guys are pretty good on the offensive glass, though K-Mart has had nothing to do with it. There should be no reason K-Mart is getting outboarded by Melo.



Anyways, part of my judgment is not based on his numbers alone, but based on the frustrating lack of impact he made when he landed on the Nuggets roster. As far as intangibles go, for New Jersey he was a real impact player, a force to be reckoned with, and he really never made that kind of splash in Denver, even in that first season when his numbers were still strong. It could be a mistaken impression on my part, I guess, but I really don't think so. I feel pretty solid in my understanding of the beats of the Nuggets, and I think in this case the statistical similarities between his last NJ season and his first DEN season belie a deeper underlying difference in his ability (or lack thereof) to really influence the outcome of games in a big way, shift momentum dramatically, etc. He seemed to kind of constantly fall short of delivering that.

I dont really know what you were expecting from him, at first glance his playoff performances were downright pathetic compared to his stay with the Nets but that had more to do with the even more pathetic frontlines he was facing on route to the finals, once he actually got to the finals he did no better against San Antonio in the Finals than he did for you guys in the first round. I mean he had a big mean streak, one that probably earned him a fatter paycheck than he deserved but that was because his teams record belied the teams and his true level of play.

Hes always been a good defender, so theres that but you have every right to be disappointed with him, I cant recall too many teams that ever accomplished anything in the playoffs without rebounding. Im just saying the absence of Kidd didnt kill K-Mart, Kmarts injuries did that. The one year he was healthy, he provided exactly what I thought he would and the Nets were totally right in not extending his contract, they didnt seem to miss him much once they made the move for Vince, I wouldve thought his absence wouldve dramatically altered their defense but they really didnt skip a beat. I remember that year, I was saying something along the lines of how foolish it was that K-Mart and Adonal Foyle recieved more DPOY consideration than Kidd did. Anyways so when does his contract expire?

DenButsu
04-01-2009, 08:20 AM
Anyways so when does his contract expire?

Never?

DenButsu
04-01-2009, 08:21 AM
(^just that for now since I don't have time - but I think it's really 2011, with a player option for 2012 - horrible contract)

Chronz
04-01-2009, 04:13 PM
God you guys would be screwed if Rolando/Anderson werent playing for free, cant stress enough how vital those guys have been. You guys would still be in the playoffs but you definitely wouldnt be in the class you are now.

DenButsu
04-01-2009, 09:55 PM
God you guys would be screwed if Rolando/Anderson werent playing for free, cant stress enough how vital those guys have been. You guys would still be in the playoffs but you definitely wouldnt be in the class you are now.

Absolutely 100% true, except that his name's Renaldo. :cool:

But you're really right - no other playoff team, I'm sure, relies as heavily as Denver does on minimum or near-minimum salary players. Birdman, Balkman, Carter, Jones, and Kleiza combine for nearly 100 mpg (averaging about 20) and have a combined salary of $5,587,156 (averaging about $1,117,000). So basically half of the players in the regular rotation (albeit all of them are role players) get paid on average just over a million bucks this season. Some luck was involved for sure, but even considering that, the accomplishment of the front office to get this team out of the luxury and improve it at the same time through a series of fairly shrewd moves shouldn't be underestimated.

DenButsu
04-01-2009, 09:58 PM
As an afterthough, without looking at their payroll, I'd guess that Portland probably surpasses Denver in low-paid players making significant contributions, but the big difference there is that in their case it's due to rookie contracts, whereas for the Nuggets, in the group of 5 I named above the only rook contract is LK.