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View Full Version : Does(ON-BALL)Defense Count For Anything?



majmarcus
03-26-2009, 06:58 PM
Why does people put so much stock in Blocks and Steals?I understand how sexy the numbers can look.But all it takes is a bad pass,u got a steal.Size advantage or bad shot selection,u got a block.Those(IMO)can be right place,right time type stats(Depends on the Offense).Now I'm not sayin those defensive areas don't require hard work,but there has to something said for CONSISTENTLY STAYIN' IN FRONT OF THE BALL HANDLER.I'm almost anxious in anticipation to see who'll get the DPY:shrug:! Because Lookin' at the stat sheet doesn't always tell the story.

ugafan
03-26-2009, 06:59 PM
yeah?

oldenpolynice
03-26-2009, 07:01 PM
Why does people put so much stock in Blocks and Steals?I understand how sexy the numbers can look.But all it takes is a bad pass,u got a steal.Size advantage or bad shot selection,u got a block.Those(IMO)can be right place,right time type stats(Depends on the Offense).Now I'm not sayin those defensive areas don't require hard work,but there has to something said for CONSISTENTLY STAYIN' IN FRONT OF THE BALL HANDLER.I'm almost anxious in anticipation to see who'll get the DPY:shrug:! Because Lookin' at the stat sheet doesn't always tell the story.

I agree with you. It's really important. Especially in the playoffs. If there's a defensive disadvantage and there's a guy you know is a bad on-ball defender and you take advantage of him and win the series, that's a big deal.

brandonwarne52
03-26-2009, 07:04 PM
Opponent's shooting percentage, maybe? I don't know...

D-Leethal
03-26-2009, 07:05 PM
its kind of a lost art nowadays, not really sure what the cause of that is, but some guys are just so good offensively its near impossible to stop them 1 on 1, you need to utilize help defense in this league which is what the Celtics are so good at ......... guys like Kobe, Bowen, Artest, Battier, Heinrich are still great on ball defenders..........I miss watching Gary Payton guard his man full court

LAKERS 24/7
03-26-2009, 07:08 PM
Your absolutely right, stats are overrated in those terms. On ball defense might be one of the most integral parts of playing D, its where it all starts. You take dribble penetration away, then most teams will have a hard time scoring.

Kyle N.
03-26-2009, 10:12 PM
its kind of a lost art nowadays, not really sure what the cause of that is, but some guys are just so good offensively its near impossible to stop them 1 on 1, you need to utilize help defense in this league which is what the Celtics are so good at ......... guys like Kobe, Bowen, Artest, Battier, Heinrich are still great on ball defenders..........I miss watching Gary Payton guard his man full court

It's a lost art? How so?

JJ81
03-26-2009, 10:26 PM
They're paid more attention to because they're on the boxscore... obviously.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-26-2009, 10:42 PM
The team or players that suffer from the stats argument the most are the Spurs. They dont gamble or go for the fancy plays. They just try to keep their man in front of them without going to for steals. But everybody knows they have had one of the best defensive teams in the league for the past decade. But they are labled boring because they dont have those fancy blocks into the third row or those pretty steals that get fantasy basketball players all wet

Kyben36
03-26-2009, 10:48 PM
Absolutly and ask the bulls. 1st, If you cant cover outside, then the defenders penetrate and either a) get dunks and Layups b) get fouled, thus, getting your bigs in foul trouble. Inside, as well, If you cant cover inside, they get easy buckets around the hoop. Without on the ball D, your defense gets broken down and the oponents get easy buckets.

madiaz3
03-26-2009, 10:52 PM
shot altering is almost more valuable than shot blocking because bad shots lead to defensive rebounds more often than swatting it out of the arena

ARMIN12NBA
03-26-2009, 10:55 PM
On ball defense is most of the defensive possessions, which is why I definitely think it is very important (probably the most).

ggg
03-26-2009, 11:00 PM
on ball defense throughout is kinda lost because rotations are more utilized nowadays, its also more efficient because you can prevent mismatches and defend picks better doin this. in some cases though like bruce bowen completly stopping AI, he'll chase him all around and only 4 players of the spurs will rotate.

Lakersfan2483
03-26-2009, 11:57 PM
On ball defense is most of the defensive possessions, which is why I definitely think it is very important (probably the most).

Agreed/

Chronz
03-27-2009, 12:47 AM
What people are you talking about, if your talking about the media or the coaches I think its because its so much easier to remember players who get alot of those stats against your team than it is trying to recall or look up whos the best at rotating and contesting. Larry Hughes, Wade, Camby, Ben Wallace are recent examples. It usually takes years for players who excel at straight up defense to get recognized for it, which is why the defensive teams are largely based on reputation, players stay on it way past their prime but the way I see it, it took them so long to get on there that it evens out anyways.

G-Funk
03-27-2009, 02:46 AM
I would much rather get a on ball defender on my team then a guy who will fill out the stat sheet with steals or blocks.

ggg
03-27-2009, 02:54 AM
camby and birdman can block shots but they arent real defensive threats, ai can steal but he's no defensive threat. id pick perkins over camby and derek fisher over iverson if i want some defense. and like i said, succesful defense nowadays are determined by how good your rotation is. single coverage or on ball defense doesnt happen all throughout the game because of the picks and need to double team for players like kobe and james, so someone must help and get back. so its not really a critical aspect of playing defense because if you can deny a player to your help defense he cant do ****. ofcourse everybody rotates and plays the passing lanes on 2 other guys leaving the farthest guy alone.

2007 playoffs, pistons made tayshaun guard lebron with little help defense cuz they thought he'd rather pass and he burned em.

KG2TB
03-27-2009, 05:44 AM
Total agreement with the thread starter. We live in the ESPN days of basketball, where stats are god and highlight reel blocks are ratings. To whoever said it was a 'lost art' I could possible see where you're coming from. I think in todays game, the fundamentals are totally neglected and great on the ball defense is very much all fundamentals and technique more than speed and athleticism which is what the game is becoming more of. Take Kirk Hinrich for example...he's a great defender and stays in front of his man better than most. He's also pretty slow and not very athletic. If you watch him though, he has some of the best footwork and technique on defense in the league that makes up for his lack of athleticism and height. He guards a lot of SG's and still gives them a hard time despite his height because he keeps them in front of him and makes them work. Basically, he takes their sweet spots away and anticipates where their next move is going to be rather than most guys who rely on athleticism to keep up.

SteveNash
03-27-2009, 08:45 AM
Funny that Reggie tries to pull that crap last night.

Reggie after saying Tyrus Thomas should be regularly be getting a triple double with points/rebounds/blocks talking about how great Wade is for his 100 blocks in a season.

Fratello says that there should be more to measuring defense than just blocks.

Reggies mentions Wade being second in steals.

Fratello offers dead silence...

JayW_1023
03-27-2009, 11:09 AM
Blocks and steals are RESULTS of good defense, not actual good defense.

Dwight Howards blocks are actually a result of poor perimeter defense. Then you have a guy like KG who can deny a shot attempt close to the hoop just by being a presence. One shows up in the stat sheet, while the other doesn't. If I want to anchor my D I would still take KG over Howard any day.

Here is my all on-the-ball defensive team:

PG Rajon Rondo
SG Kobe Bryant
SF Ron Artest
PF Kevin Garnett
C Rasheed Wallace

Bench:

Jarrett Jack
Shane Battier
Bruce Bowen
Raja Bell
Andres Nocioni
Nene
Ben Wallace

sp1derm00
03-27-2009, 11:44 AM
Blocks and steals are RESULTS of good defense, not actual good defense.

Dwight Howards blocks are actually a result of poor perimeter defense. Then you have a guy like KG who can deny a shot attempt close to the hoop just by being a presence. One shows up in the stat sheet, while the other doesn't. If I want to anchor my D I would still take KG over Howard any day.

Here is my all on-the-ball defensive team:

PG Rajon Rondo
SG Kobe Bryant
SF Ron Artest
PF Kevin Garnett
C Rasheed Wallace

Bench:

Jarrett Jack
Shane Battier
Bruce Bowen
Raja Bell
Andres Nocioni
Nene
Ben Wallace


Hrmm... no Duncan for on ball defense?

JayW_1023
03-27-2009, 12:22 PM
Hrmm... no Duncan for on ball defense?

Duncan is a great weakside defender...but he isn't an elite straight up defender at his position. He isn't bad either though...but Garnett, Nene, Wallace and Sheed are better in that aspect of the game.

I'm a big Spurs fan, but adding Duncan would be very biased and homerish...not that I didn't have my share of homer posts in the past :D

SteveNash
03-27-2009, 02:33 PM
Rondo is a terrible on the ball defender.

mjt20mik
03-27-2009, 02:35 PM
its kind of a lost art nowadays, not really sure what the cause of that is, but some guys are just so good offensively its near impossible to stop them 1 on 1, you need to utilize help defense in this league which is what the Celtics are so good at ......... guys like Kobe, Bowen, Artest, Battier, Heinrich are still great on ball defenders..........I miss watching Gary Payton guard his man full court

I miss the Glove and his trash talking to. :(

Chronz
03-27-2009, 03:47 PM
Blocks and steals are RESULTS of good defense, not actual good defense.

Dwight Howards blocks are actually a result of poor perimeter defense. Then you have a guy like KG who can deny a shot attempt close to the hoop just by being a presence. One shows up in the stat sheet, while the other doesn't. If I want to anchor my D I would still take KG over Howard any day.

Here is my all on-the-ball defensive team:

PG Rajon Rondo
SG Kobe Bryant
SF Ron Artest
PF Kevin Garnett
C Rasheed Wallace

Bench:

Jarrett Jack
Shane Battier
Bruce Bowen
Raja Bell
Andres Nocioni
Nene
Ben Wallace

Ron Artest is a huge gambler, but his defense is still very much important to the Rockets. Dwights ability to shore up the Magic defense is valuable enough that they are one of the top 2 defensive teams in the league. I dont see how the Magic could accomplish that by having poor perimeter defense, they got the wing defender and the dominant anchor. Your not giving Dwight enough credit and giving Ron too much even though hes doing exactly what you dont want from your defenders. I felt Rondo was better last year, Nocioni is tough but too slow to guard the perimeter, to small to guard the post. Bowen rarely plays, Bell is old. Kwame Brown is a better post defender than Sheed if your not going to value helpside defense.

D-Leethal
03-27-2009, 04:11 PM
It's a lost art? How so?

because it is not something that many players take pride in anymore

ggg
03-27-2009, 08:21 PM
how can you pick and tell kg is better than dwight ANY DAY whe he got rondo allen and pierce that can and proved they defend while dwight got alston lee turk rashad, all without defensive reputation.

and how can u even have sheed over dwight at the c spot? sheed dont have diwghts atheltiscm, dwight can block any shot in the paint. lets not make blocks oversstated that it dont matter cuz just the other night dwights athletiscm blocked boston's supposedly winning shot. how can u not count that as defense?

Bring The Heat
03-27-2009, 08:37 PM
I completely agree on the ball defending is important but u cant downgrade steals or blocks either...you have to remember a steal late in the game or a big block can be a big momentum changer for a team and if your playing at home can get the crowd into it...things might not be going well for the team playing then all of a sudden your player gets a big block or steal and a fastbreak on the other end with a point or a three point play and it turn things around quickly...

when wade steals the ball it most of the times results in a point on the other end...you saw what one steal did to the bulls a couple of weeks ago...wade also has had big blocks against 7 foot guys late in the game...ask brook lopez....those are BIG plays for his team...ones that you want when its crunch time...

NYMetros
03-27-2009, 09:04 PM
Rondo is a terrible on the ball defender.

He has more DWS than any other player on the Celtics, however.

Sly Guy
03-27-2009, 09:38 PM
Why does people put so much stock in Blocks and Steals?I understand how sexy the numbers can look.But all it takes is a bad pass,u got a steal.Size advantage or bad shot selection,u got a block.Those(IMO)can be right place,right time type stats(Depends on the Offense).Now I'm not sayin those defensive areas don't require hard work,but there has to something said for CONSISTENTLY STAYIN' IN FRONT OF THE BALL HANDLER.I'm almost anxious in anticipation to see who'll get the DPY:shrug:! Because Lookin' at the stat sheet doesn't always tell the story.

I think defensive rebounds, and 'on the ball' blocks would be considered two telling 'on the ball' defensive stats.

Chronz
03-28-2009, 12:02 AM
I completely agree on the ball defending is important but u cant downgrade steals or blocks either...you have to remember a steal late in the game or a big block can be a big momentum changer for a team and if your playing at home can get the crowd into it...things might not be going well for the team playing then all of a sudden your player gets a big block or steal and a fastbreak on the other end with a point or a three point play and it turn things around quickly...

when wade steals the ball it most of the times results in a point on the other end...you saw what one steal did to the bulls a couple of weeks ago...wade also has had big blocks against 7 foot guys late in the game...ask brook lopez....those are BIG plays for his team...ones that you want when its crunch time...

It all depends on how successful they are in their gambles. Since most people (actually all) cant track every possession from every players gambles people tend to associate high steals with high risks. Its true in most cases but not all. As for shotblockers, if they leave their feet too often and are vulnerable to allowing offensive putbacks/rebounds as a result (Like Alonzo in his later days) and their teams rebounding efficiency suffers because of it then they are taking too many risks.

Bring The Heat
03-28-2009, 12:08 AM
It all depends on how successful they are in their gambles. Since most people (actually all) cant track every possession from every players gambles people tend to associate high steals with high risks. Its true in most cases but not all. As for shotblockers, if they leave their feet too often and are vulnerable to allowing offensive putbacks/rebounds as a result (Like Alonzo in his later days) and their teams rebounding efficiency suffers because of it then they are taking too many risks.

Well I don't necessarily call a risk all the time...it's you trying to make a play to help your team...the reward for the block outweighs the risk sometimes...

How about Zo making big blocks in the finals against the Mavs? he took what people here on this board call a "risk"...and now he wears a ring on his finger...or Wade winning the game for the heat against the bulls...sometimes you need to make a risk in order to succeed...

majmarcus
03-28-2009, 06:28 PM
I'm not downgrading steals and blocks.What I'm sayin is those 2 categories can be awfully misleading/mistaken for good defense.I once upon a time heard A.I.(of all people) "called a great defender"....I shouldn't have to detail how ******** that claim was.A.I. could clog a lane in a min.But in terms of D'n u up,I'm gonna take this ***** from you! Homeboy couldn't hold water.But because he gets 7 stls in a game,"Iverson is a great defender".Complete Rubbi*****he idiot(s) who said that,looked at the stat sheet and/or highlights and was easily manipulated and slept on the countless times he(A.I.) was iced!!!!