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View Full Version : why wieters should be on O's opening day



ravensrule
03-12-2009, 09:53 AM
im not sure how long he is signed for but her are some of reasons i feel he should start.

last year proved himself in the minors was pretty much perfect.

if he countinues to produce at the plate this spring.

if nothing else let him just catch certain pitchers and even dh or try him at first base.

why not all of our pitchers are pretty much minor league talent we will prob finish last or 4 if lucky.

look at greg zauns batting stats couldnt do much worse at plate

main reason LETS BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES IF HE DOES BECOME A SUPERSTAR REMEMBER NO SALARY CAP. HOW LONG BEFORE HE IS A YANKEE, RED SOX, DODGER, OR MET. LOOK WHO HIS AGENT IS SCOTT BORAS.

lets use him while we can

lol if he is signed for like 10 years or more im really wrong would take it slow but i couldnt find how long anywhere

x the game x
03-12-2009, 09:56 AM
we get him for more years of arbitration if he plays a certain amount of time in minors this yr

bal_ravens
03-12-2009, 10:19 AM
Yup, if we bring him up in March I believe, we get him for an extra 2 years or so. If he starts the season in the Bigs, we dont get those 2 years.

Talent wise, he would easily be on the opening day roster. But financial and commonsense wise, he is staying down for a month or so

ravensrule
03-12-2009, 10:43 AM
yeah u are right

bigity b
03-12-2009, 12:54 PM
TB did the same thing with longoria last year...and they still pre-emptively locked him up to a contract.

I dont see this being an issue at all. And to your ALL CAPS point (btw, do you think caps enhances your argument?), the FO is pretty smart and will do what they can to prevent weiters from going to the red sox or yankees. When it comes to developing our players, we do well (Mussina aside) from keeping them away from division rivals. When it comes to FA, its anyones game. The O's wont let weiters get to FA. mark my words.

ravensrule
03-12-2009, 01:42 PM
[QUOTE=bigity b;8717008]TB did the same thing with longoria last year...and they still pre-emptively locked him up to a contract.

I dont see this being an issue at all. And to your ALL CAPS point (btw, do you think caps enhances your argument?), the FO is pretty smart and will do what they can to prevent weiters from going to the red sox or yankees. When it comes to developing our players, we do well (Mussina aside) from keeping them away from division rivals. When it comes to FA, its anyones game. The O's wont let weiters get to FA. mark my words.[/QUOTE


IF FO IS FRONT OFFICE WHAT A JOKE YOU HAVE FAITH IN THEM BET O S COME IN LAST AGAIN THIS YEAR

ravensrule
03-12-2009, 02:02 PM
[QUOTE=bigity b;8717008]TB did the same thing with longoria last year...and they still pre-emptively locked him up to a contract.

I dont see this being an issue at all. And to your ALL CAPS point (btw, do you think caps enhances your argument?), the FO is pretty smart and will do what they can to prevent weiters from going to the red sox or yankees. When it comes to developing our players, we do well (Mussina aside) from keeping them away from division rivals. When it comes to FA, its anyones game. The O's wont let weiters get to FA. mark my words.[/QUOTe


bj ryan not that bad on toronto now thats our rival for 4 th place until rays contracts are up and good players move to one of the 5 big money teams.

O's Boy15
03-12-2009, 03:20 PM
They better not let him become a free agent... If they do that says alot about their willingness to compete and bring fans to Camden Yards. NY showed how strong they were with their spending this off season and with Jorge getting old, they would be more than willing to take on one of the games most coveted young catchers. Do I see the Orioles letting him get to free agency tho, no! I don't think MacPhail would let that happen. If the O's need to do one thing at all that is to Keep their young and young up and coming core together. Which includes Weiters, Jones, Markakis, Pie (we'll see) Guthrie (not so young) Tillman, Arrieta, Matusz, Bergessen, Hernandez, Patton and Penn together.

ravensrule
03-12-2009, 03:30 PM
They better not let him become a free agent... If they do that says alot about their willingness to compete and bring fans to Camden Yards. NY showed how strong they were with their spending this off season and with Jorge getting old, they would be more than willing to take on one of the games most coveted young catchers. Do I see the Orioles letting him get to free agency tho, no! I don't think MacPhail would let that happen. If the O's need to do one thing at all that is to Keep their young and young up and coming core together. Which includes Weiters, Jones, Markakis, Pie (we'll see) Guthrie (not so young) Tillman, Arrieta, Matusz, Bergessen, Hernandez, Patton and Penn together.

i hope. not sure if i was the only one who notices all the yankee and red sox hats on all the kid s around here in balto and like when that team from maryland was on tv in little league world series not one kid s favorite player was an oriole

bigity b
03-12-2009, 04:06 PM
IF FO IS FRONT OFFICE WHAT A JOKE YOU HAVE FAITH IN THEM BET O S COME IN LAST AGAIN THIS YEAR

To compare McPhail's regime of laying the ground work for long, sustainable success in the future with front office regimes of the past is dumb. Before, the O's signed Over-the-hill, Overrated, and Old players to plug holes that were intended to help the O's compete in the immediate. Unfortunately those teams often faded hard in the second half and finished last anyway. Will we finish last this year? Probably, but im not arguing with that. Is this team finishing last going to be much more exciting than previous years? Yes. Why? Because you're going to watch the development and growth of young guys who will be here for years and will help build A FRANCHISE. FO's of the past, yes, were a joke but to categorize McPhail in the same vein doesn't make any sense and can't be defended with anything factual. To say "i bet on them finishing last again" makes me say "and.... your point is......?"

bigity b
03-12-2009, 04:10 PM
bj ryan not that bad on toronto now thats our rival for 4 th place until rays contracts are up and good players move to one of the 5 big money teams.

Difference is BJ Ryan = top 15 closer in the game = for the money he got, replaceable (which we did just find with Ray then Sherill. Besides, remember the BETTER CLOSERS THAN BJ that were here before him?). Also, how has Tor done since he joined them? Was he the difference maker for them?

Weiters = potential to be THE top catcher in the game = never let him go = difference maker.

bshone
03-12-2009, 04:42 PM
1. Bigity B is right - MacPhail should not be compared to our other Front Offices of the past. In my opinion, you'd have to search long and hard to find a mistake that MacPhail has made since he got here (see Bedard for Jones and Sherrill; Tejada for Scott, Costanzo, Patton, Albers, and Sarfate; Olson for Pie; A player to be named later for Hill; locking up Markakis; locking up Roberts). In fact, you can judge MacPhail by what he hasn't done. He has yet to sign an awful free agent to a major contract (remember when we signed Sammy Sosa?)

2. With regards to B.J. Ryan, lets not forget that he pitched all of 4.3 innings in all of 2007 for the Blue Jays. That year he was paid $7,000,000. A rebuilding team would be much better off with $7,000,000 than a year of 4.3 innings pitched by B.J. Ryan. In fact, the very next year when we traded Bedard away to get an all-star closer in Sherrill, Bedard pitched 81 innings - only 23 more than Sherrill (who, by the way wasn't even the prime prospect we received in the trade!)

3. Back to the thread content itself - Wieters should not be brought up until May. We're not a playoff contender this year and he has yet to catch in Triple-A ball. That's not to see he isn't worthy of starting for the Orioles, but the goal is to bring him up with the expectation that he is the everyday starter at catcher - not a DH, not a backup, and not a bench player. I'd be surprised if he's not called up in May or June and starts just about every game for the rest of the season (aside from normal days off, which catchers typically need more than other position players).

ravensrule
03-12-2009, 05:31 PM
To compare McPhail's regime of laying the ground work for long, sustainable success in the future with front office regimes of the past is dumb. Before, the O's signed Over-the-hill, Overrated, and Old players to plug holes that were intended to help the O's compete in the immediate. Unfortunately those teams often faded hard in the second half and finished last anyway. Will we finish last this year? Probably, but im not arguing with that. Is this team finishing last going to be much more exciting than previous years? Yes. Why? Because you're going to watch the development and growth of young guys who will be here for years and will help build A FRANCHISE. FO's of the past, yes, were a joke but to categorize McPhail in the same vein doesn't make any sense and can't be defended with anything factual. To say "i bet on them finishing last again" makes me say "and.... your point is......?"

well we have not had a winning season since 1997 and in 2008 was our worst season since 2002 hope it happens soon

Driven
03-12-2009, 06:11 PM
2. With regards to B.J. Ryan, lets not forget that he pitched all of 4.3 innings in all of 2007 for the Blue Jays. That year he was paid $7,000,000. A rebuilding team would be much better off with $7,000,000 than a year of 4.3 innings pitched by B.J. Ryan.

While injuries are definitely a concern, if we would have extended Ryan mid-season, who's to say he'd get that much money in Baltimore?


In fact, the very next year when we traded Bedard away to get an all-star closer in Sherrill, Bedard pitched 81 innings - only 23 more than Sherrill (who, by the way wasn't even the prime prospect we received in the trade!)

George Sherrill had a terrible year last season. Not a good example.

bal_ravens
03-12-2009, 07:29 PM
^^ I wouldn't say Sherrill had a TERRIBLE year. He had 31 saves and got the team out of ALOT of jams. He would come in with bases loaded, get two strikeouts and have the third groundout it seems like almost every other night.

Driven
03-12-2009, 08:40 PM
He had a 1.50 WHIP. That is terrible.

bal_ravens
03-13-2009, 12:49 AM
Oh gotcha. Chad Bradford had a 1.19 WHIP, Francisco Rodriguez was a 1.29.

Chad Bradford for Rodriguez and a 3rd base prospect. Make it happen!

iamray
03-13-2009, 07:13 AM
I would rather see Wieters stay down for a month or so, work with those young pitchers that hopefully he'll be working with for the next 5 or 6 years, and then come up and have an additional arbitration year.

x the game x
03-13-2009, 11:47 AM
Oh gotcha. Chad Bradford had a 1.19 WHIP, Francisco Rodriguez was a 1.29.

Chad Bradford for Rodriguez and a 3rd base prospect. Make it happen!


did we ever get that player to be named later for bradford from the rays yet?

bal_ravens
03-13-2009, 11:50 AM
^^ It was just cash, I think they said $10,000 or something.

bshone
03-13-2009, 02:22 PM
While injuries are definitely a concern, if we would have extended Ryan mid-season, who's to say he'd get that much money in Baltimore?

I don't know what would have happened had we extended Ryan midway through the last year of his contract with the Orioles. All I know is what did happen - he signed for millions with Toronto. The point is that Ryan wasn't part of the rebuilding process, so I'm fine with having let him go to free up cash.


George Sherrill had a terrible year last season. Not a good example.

Certainly not a "terrible" year, although he did fade somewhat in the second half. Nonetheless, the point was missed once again. We traded away Erik Bedard, who (as a starting pitcher) appeared in only 30 more innings than the second best prospect we got for him.

To recap my previous post - I dare someone to find a mistake that Andy MacPhail has made so far in Baltimore. He was able to sign Scott Boras' own Matt Wieters (unlike prior front offices who let draftees go unsigned), he hasn't traded away a "John Maine-like" starter yet (time will tell if Olson turns out to be a mistake), he hasn't signed washed up free agents like Sammy Sosa to big dollar and/or long term contracts, he has shown patience by not getting rid of Brian Roberts for Felix Pie and Rich Hill (and instead gave up Olson and a PTBNL and resigned Roberts), he resigned our cornerstone player in Markakis, he traded away Tejada for five players and the Astros (only one year later) were trying to get rid of Tejada and couldn't find suitors, he got rid of a lazy Ramon Hernandez in time for there to be no clubhouse issues when Wieters is ready, and the list goes on...

bshone
03-13-2009, 02:26 PM
While I'm at it, I might as well note that MacPhail's work has pushed the Orioles from one of the worst five farm systems in baseball (for several years in a row earlier this decade) to the #7 best farm system according to the ranking at the link below. I would imagine most ranking systems like this one would be highly correlated with the changes that have been made in Baltimore's farm over the last few years.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/farm-system-value-rankings-part-2/

bigity b
03-13-2009, 02:44 PM
^^^ and that is why i love this front office

jayfantilldeath
03-13-2009, 02:52 PM
Ryan is worth salary on a team that is annually in contention, on a team like TO or even if He signed an extension in 05' with the O's he would not be worth it. spending 7-10 mill on a closer for a team that doesn't win over 90 games is a waste. Lock up weiters, he is the next mauer.

bshone
03-13-2009, 03:50 PM
Ryan is worth salary on a team that is annually in contention, on a team like TO or even if He signed an extension in 05' with the O's he would not be worth it. spending 7-10 mill on a closer for a team that doesn't win over 90 games is a waste. Lock up weiters, he is the next mauer.

Agreed. What's the point in having a top closer if he's rarely in the position to save games? It starts with the starting rotation when you're rebuilding because it's much more difficult to put together 4/5 guys with quality starts than it is to go out and snag a top closer in baseball. Ryan is awesome, just not part of our rebuilding process.

ravensrule
03-13-2009, 06:24 PM
i dont think we r going anywhere until we get a new owner .

ravensrule
03-13-2009, 06:46 PM
rebuilding is great but whats buying free agents have to do with building we aint trading anybody. our offense last year was pretty good, not sure who was available but if we could of signed say a number one and two starter to go along with the young talent . could of helped with the young pitchers to grow and learn . rather than texteria . we scored alot of runs last year and have a great defense add some pitchers and maybe we could compete aliittle more maybe still have a chance after all star break . like i said im not sure who was available and even who would come here. you dont have to get angry just starting conversation not claiming to know everything or anything for that matter .

ravensrule
03-13-2009, 07:29 PM
just for the sake of argument because im bored but what if wieters is our best offensive player after spring and even leads all other major league catchers in hitting after spring and obviously belongs on 0 'S do u act smart put him in minors or would we be looked at as cheap and put him in minors to save year.

could you start him and let other players free agent see we r serious about winning and not cheap. and maybe some would want to come here. or even stay.

would it be starting a good relationship with your future super star so when his contract is up and yankees r by then throwing 50 mill a year at him. maybe we start a good relationship from the start maybe he will say balto has always been fair with me.

thats only if he keeps producing in spring and earned a spot as everyday player.

thats a big if though just a stupid idea

im just hoping wieters could be like ray lewis and cal and keep our young fans interested. seems like puts uop same numbers at college fred and bowie and spring

bal_ravens
03-14-2009, 03:21 PM
^^ I think he has to do pretty much amazing to be on the opening day roster. MacPhail said he has to hit .800 to get on the roster jokingly.

I think if he can hit .475 with a few homeruns and a good number of RBIs, you would definitely have to consider bringing him up. But then again, as stated before, if we can just wait a month, we can bring him up and have him locked up for more years.

x the game x
03-14-2009, 04:31 PM
first off the orioles are not cheap,we have repeatedly offered more money for ppl but they dont wanna come here,look at jason schmidt and vlad,we offered both more and they went else where.u can try to win through veteran players,but look at the yankees and then the rays who built a team through the draft.(im still mad we wouldnt give pena better then a minor league deal and he went to tb)

tranman
03-15-2009, 06:13 PM
I see absolutely no reason to have him on the Opening Day roster. Sure, he's good enough, but what's the point? He won't single-handedly bring the Orioles up from oblivion and make them a contender. The O's aren't good enough yet. Leave him down in the minors for a couple months then bring him up to season him and buy some extra time before arbitration.

jetsfan28
03-15-2009, 10:44 PM
I see absolutely no reason to have him on the Opening Day roster. Sure, he's good enough, but what's the point? He won't single-handedly bring the Orioles up from oblivion and make them a contender. The O's aren't good enough yet. Leave him down in the minors for a couple months then bring him up to season him and buy some extra time before arbitration.

This. He seriously might be the best catcher in baseball if he starts out on the MLB roster, BP projects him to be IIRC, but why bother?