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View Full Version : White Flag for the die hards???



Frank Costanza
03-02-2009, 02:51 PM
Ok fellow die hards, and by die hards i mean those who were with frank up till yesterday that we would be able to still go on our magic run, is it over ?

Frank never wants to raise the white flag with over a month of season left but is feeling like it may be time..

Frank Costanza
03-02-2009, 02:58 PM
i didnt wanna see this day, i really didnt

jrob23
03-02-2009, 03:00 PM
yeah it's over

we need to let ukic, joey and obryant play more

and bench jose. hes easily one of the worst starters on defence in the entire league

Steely McBeam
03-02-2009, 03:55 PM
^^ oh man he was so bad yesterday lol, j kidd made him his *****

hades
03-02-2009, 04:02 PM
i still dont hear the fat lady sing.

JermanJaysFan
03-02-2009, 04:25 PM
I won't truly give up until it is mathematically over.

Bob_at_york
03-02-2009, 04:36 PM
I know mathematically they are still in it but right now they are very close to me thinking they have no chance. It isn't because of anything they have done of late, it is because the teams that are in front of them are playing better than I thought they would. I was expecting some more slippage on their parts.

Either way, I wouldn't sit Jose for Roko or do anything to hurt the team. Unless you consider giving Jake's minutes to POB tanking or something.

Murphy_Dee
03-02-2009, 04:38 PM
It took me until yesterday to give up on the season, but that doesn't mean I want us to tank the rest of the way to get a better chance at a high draft pick. It still sucks just as much seeing the Raps lose when they're 15 games below .500 than when they're 15 games above. I'm still hoping they win each and every game, but the more I see Jose being hampered by his hammy injury, and Bosh being frustrated, and our team getting beaten down in games they have a chance at winning, the more I think about going at it with a fresh start next year after making some moves in free agency and starting to move this ship in the right direction. Lets just hope Bargnani keeps developing and Marion becomes at home enough here over the last bit of the seasn to re-sign with us at a discount price.

Murphy_Dee
03-02-2009, 04:40 PM
I know mathematically they are still in it but right now they are very close to me thinking they have no chance. It isn't because of anything they have done of late, it is because the teams that are in front of them are playing better than I thought they would. I was expecting some more slippage on their parts.

Either way, I wouldn't sit Jose for Roko or do anything to hurt the team. Unless you consider giving Jake's minutes to POB tanking or something.

I agree that Jose still needs to be our guy for the rest of the season (we need to at least put forth a competitive team), but I'm all for benching Jake in favour of O'Bryant and seeing what (if anything) this kid can bring us.

pebloemer
03-02-2009, 04:47 PM
I don't really believe in "waving a white flag of surrender." Playoffs or not, this team needs to get some chemistry and confidence back. They need to look back at this year and see some personal progress. I would not be opposed to reducing minutes slightly off of Bosh and Calderon (especially because of the injuries they had nagging them throughout the year). Ukic could get some more playing time, but not dramatically. Joey could get some more burn at PF, but overall, the whole team needs to start playing together and gaining confidence going into next season. Colangelo needs to see what he's got and what he needs moving forward and the players need to put the bumps of the year out of their minds and just play ball. If they get lucky and still land a spot, great, but they gotta stop thinking of goals and just play to win every night.

Frank Costanza
03-02-2009, 04:58 PM
you know guys you convinced me to give it a lil more time, i guess the thread was started out of frustration but just seeing that ppl are waiting for the math to take us out, im with you, i do not by any means want to tank the rest of the way but like the suggestions of playig POBryant and Roko a bit more, lets say for one second that this yr and next yr werent auditions for us to keep players ala bosh and marion i would be happy with a tank to last for a good pick but i think that will deflate our chances of signing anyone my fear we finish 11th, close enough to 8th to feel like we blew it wit hthe losses to mil, ny, okc, Nj, ind, but not close enough to the bottom for a good pick and cause of the wests dwellers pick 10th

Jacob K.
03-02-2009, 05:12 PM
i want to win, no matter what. i belive its over, but i NEVER want to see a team lose on purpose for a CHANCE at a high draft pick. we play each and every game hard, to win.

LD V2.0
03-02-2009, 05:23 PM
I never raise the white flag but then again this isn't my fight. The Raptors looked beaten months ago. Right now they're playing for pride and right now it looks like they have little of that.

canzano55
03-02-2009, 05:38 PM
The Eastern rivals who I expected to falter (as did Bob and many others) managed to band together in the face of adversity and get results making it close to impossible for us.

We have been outplayed, out-coached and out - just about everything imaginable in one basketball season so I think all thats left is to play out the remaining games with dignity. As for next season I don't think it can be nearly as disappointing to this season which is one of the worst on record (taking into account the expectations pre-season).

What I learned from this year as a fan, so far, is the prudence of informed perception. I would always look at rivals with disdain, contrastingly putting my team on a pedestal (at least subconsciously) when the reality is that in professional sports everything is earned time and again through hard work, not because of assumed outcomes.

The positives to take away are few but relevant nevertheless. We have a centerpiece in Bargnani which by all accounts is a promise for the future while there is also small (but significant) pieces on the fringe in Parker, Graham and Ukic. With the right coach and good moves on behalf of Bryan Colangelo, (and some luck) we could see a dramatic difference in the Raptorland next season. Some important pieces are already there we just need someone to hold the reigns.

B2B
03-02-2009, 05:40 PM
i want to win, no matter what. i belive its over, but i NEVER want to see a team lose on purpose for a CHANCE at a high draft pick. we play each and every game hard, to win.

Rap don't have to lose on purpose. Players & coaches must always play to win it's management that tanks.

If management fields a team incapable of playing that's a form of tanking havent you noticed the mins Kapono is logging?. I didn't check but it felt like he played the entire game against Dallas. It maybe nothing but I find it funny.

ink
03-02-2009, 05:54 PM
Rap don't have to lose on purpose. Players & coaches must always play to win it's management that tanks.

If management fields a team incapable of playing that's a form of tanking havent you noticed the mins Kapono is logging?. I didn't check but it felt like he played the entire game against Dallas. It maybe nothing but I find it funny.

They don't have a lot of other alternatives. If Banks starts playing a lot of minutes, I know we're tanking.

As for the thread, I don't own a white flag. :D

maxgraham
03-02-2009, 06:24 PM
i will watch every game as i always have, i will scream at the tv, read the paper and psd every day, read yahoo nba daily and check the rankings when they are published, but yes i raise the white flag. We've had some lows and right now i'm feeling as low as any of them... :(

it crushes me when we're like this, when others see us as just a garbage team taking up time between the cavs/lakers/boston/magic games in their arenas... it kills me to see airballs, shot clocks run out, others walk straight to the rim without impedance, shaq to rip on our "star"

its painful.

ill watch... and cheer... but this one is over without a doubt

to be honest i don't see hope for next year at this point... at all

jrob23
03-02-2009, 06:28 PM
^only hope i can see is if we move calderon

i know i dont shy away from ripping calderon, but the guy cannot lead our team

and he gets paid too much to be a back up

id even consier moving AP to starting point and going after an established SG , or drafting james harden if we were lucky enough to get the chance

certain fool
03-02-2009, 06:38 PM
Everyone dies. Just because we all end up in the ground doesn't mean we should hasten the process and grab a shovel. Gotta fight every day and enjoy what it brings. They should do the same. I'll still be watching the games and hoping they win. But, I'm not expecting to be sitting in front of the TV too much any time after april 16.

Kaptain Kanada
03-02-2009, 06:41 PM
its a sad sad day :(

kanersen
03-02-2009, 07:46 PM
I never raise the white flag but then again this isn't my fight. The Raptors looked beaten months ago. Right now they're playing for pride and right now it looks like they have little of that.

pretty much sums up my thoughts

lorenz00
03-02-2009, 08:01 PM
season is over get out the salami and cheese

rapswin98
03-02-2009, 08:27 PM
:)you idiot it was over in december, surrender already:surrender:

pebloemer
03-02-2009, 08:34 PM
i will watch every game as i always have, i will scream at the tv, read the paper and psd every day, read yahoo nba daily and check the rankings when they are published, but yes i raise the white flag. We've had some lows and right now i'm feeling as low as any of them... :(

it crushes me when we're like this, when others see us as just a garbage team taking up time between the cavs/lakers/boston/magic games in their arenas... it kills me to see airballs, shot clocks run out, others walk straight to the rim without impedance, shaq to rip on our "star"

its painful.

ill watch... and cheer... but this one is over without a doubt

to be honest i don't see hope for next year at this point... at all

I am surprised at that comment.

There is still an off-season with significant cap space and draft ahead of us. Probably a new coach and a lot of time to regroup. What makes next year so hopeless this soon??

Goon.Weezy
03-02-2009, 08:40 PM
season is over get out the salami and cheese

:surrender:

td0tsfinest
03-02-2009, 09:18 PM
i am right at the tip but I still believe.

HoopsMachine
03-03-2009, 09:13 AM
I know mathematically they are still in it but right now they are very close to me thinking they have no chance. It isn't because of anything they have done of late, it is because the teams that are in front of them are playing better than I thought they would. I was expecting some more slippage on their parts.

Either way, I wouldn't sit Jose for Roko or do anything to hurt the team. Unless you consider giving Jake's minutes to POB tanking or something.

yeah even we play and hit our goal which is at 15-6 right now, I think we it is more likely one of these teams (NY, NJ, Mil, Ind, Chi, Cha) will mathematically eliminate us.

I think by Mid-March if they haven't strung a few victories together than they should shut down Bosh and Calderon to let them heal completely from their injuries and allow the younger talent to get some minutes.

Most will say this is tanking... well ill be honest with you I don't see us getting a better draft pick since I can't see us doing worst than Washington and all the bottom feeders out in the west.

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 10:03 AM
I think by Mid-March if they haven't strung a few victories together than they should shut down Bosh and Calderon to let them heal completely from their injuries and allow the younger talent to get some minutes.

Most will say this is tanking... well ill be honest with you I don't see us getting a better draft pick since I can't see us doing worst than Washington and all the bottom feeders out in the west.

Its tanking if they do it with the intention to lose games on purpose. Its not tanking if they do it with the intention of protecting your investment, Chris Bosh's and Jose Calderon's long term health. If they lose more games because of it then those are the breaks. Why risk enhancing the injury when the games no longer mean anything?

I don't know if you guys have been looking at the league win percentages but right now the Raptors are 8th worst in the league. Even if they phone in the rest of the season, which they've been doing, its not likely that they climb in lower than 7th worst. At that point there is a drop off and you're into the extremely pathetic. They're not extremely pathetic, just pathetic. :)

Kaptain Kanada
03-03-2009, 10:26 AM
Its tanking if they do it with the intention to lose games on purpose. Its not tanking if they do it with the intention of protecting your investment, Chris Bosh's and Jose Calderon's long term health. If they lose more games because of it then those are the breaks. Why risk enhancing the injury when the games no longer mean anything?

I don't know if you guys have been looking at the league win percentages but right now the Raptors are 8th worst in the league. Even if they phone in the rest of the season, which they've been doing, its not likely that they climb in lower than 7th worst. At that point there is a drop off and you're into the extremely pathetic. They're not extremely pathetic, just pathetic. :)

And that is why there is hope for next year folks.... we're just pathetic, not extremely so. :D

the life
03-03-2009, 10:39 AM
I am surprised at that comment.

There is still an off-season with significant cap space and draft ahead of us. Probably a new coach and a lot of time to regroup. What makes next year so hopeless this soon??

To tell you the truth I lost fate in BC. I think he is opportunistic and the only way for him to build a contender here would be pure luck.
I don't like the way he trades draft picks for players and I don't think today we are any inch closer of being a contender than we were three years ago when he started. He takes to many chances and starts from zero too often.
At this point I think his history as Raptors GM is no better than Babcock was.

Bob_at_york
03-03-2009, 10:47 AM
I am surprised at that comment.

There is still an off-season with significant cap space and draft ahead of us. Probably a new coach and a lot of time to regroup. What makes next year so hopeless this soon??

This surprises you? Think about the thread topics from the last couple of months:

- Kapono is garbage
- Jose can't keep anyone in front of him.
- Bosh isn't a superstar, he sucks.

You have seen these threads, do you think any of these guys are going to be out of here in the offseason? I don't. So you know that a lot of posters seem to believe these above comments, so is it really surprising that they think we are sunk next year too?

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 10:48 AM
I don't like the way he trades draft picks for players and I don't think today we are any inch closer of being a contender than we were three years ago when he started. He takes to many chances and starts from zero too often.
At this point I think his history as Raptors GM is no better than Babcock was.

Colangelo hasn't drafted a bust or sold the farm for a rusty tin can so I think you're being too harsh.

Bob_at_york
03-03-2009, 10:55 AM
To tell you the truth I lost fate in BC. I think he is opportunistic and the only way for him to build a contender here would be pure luck.
I don't like the way he trades draft picks for players and I don't think today we are any inch closer of being a contender than we were three years ago when he started. He takes to many chances and starts from zero too often.
At this point I think his history as Raptors GM is no better than Babcock was.

I think that is because you have a much lower opinion of Babcock then others might.

Frank Costanza
03-03-2009, 11:25 AM
To tell you the truth I lost fate in BC.
At this point I think his history as Raptors GM is no better than Babcock was.

i am a beleiver of "to each his own" " no right or wrong answers in psd" but every once in a while you run into a goon who makes a comment that is just purly and utterly not true and Babcock vs BC is an easy one, to say BC has had his faults and isnt "god" sure , but to compare him to babcock is to say you dont know ball, i dont wanna be saying you dont know ball, your on this forum so you must know ball , but then there is that comment, are you just a douche?, an angry indiv and fan? or do you acutually believe that?, cause if it is one of the first two, its understandable

pebloemer
03-03-2009, 12:06 PM
This surprises you? Think about the thread topics from the last couple of months:

- Kapono is garbage
- Jose can't keep anyone in front of him.
- Bosh isn't a superstar, he sucks.

You have seen these threads, do you think any of these guys are going to be out of here in the offseason? I don't. So you know that a lot of posters seem to believe these above comments, so is it really surprising that they think we are sunk next year too?

You really know how to put a perspective on things. I am always an optimist so I see an off-season with many options to improve the team. I see Garbo's 4 million against the cap gone - which largely affects our depth. I see Calderon and Bosh getting some rest - which largely affects their health. I see few teams with money to spend this off-season - which largely increases our options. I see a new coach being brought in - which creates a new focus and plenty of time to regroup around that focus. We have a draft - with likely a decent pick - to bring in some young fresh legs. We have a year of adversity behind us to motivate the team moving into next year.

With all those x-factors this off-season, it is FAR too soon write off next season. Bosh has led us into the playoffs a couple years straight, once with Calderon as arguably the second best player on the team. I don't think all that was a fluke. The East has gotten stronger, but the team has many opportunities to get stronger with them.

But you are right, I shouldn't be surprised that people are writing it off with the comments, but a lot can change in an off-season.

pebloemer
03-03-2009, 12:10 PM
i am a beleiver of "to each his own" " no right or wrong answers in psd" but every once in a while you run into a goon who makes a comment that is just purly and utterly not true and Babcock vs BC is an easy one, to say BC has had his faults and isnt "god" sure , but to compare him to babcock is to say you dont know ball, i dont wanna be saying you dont know ball, your on this forum so you must know ball , but then there is that comment, are you just a douche?, an angry indiv and fan? or do you acutually believe that?, cause if it is one of the first two, its understandable

BC came into a much better situation than Babcock did. I think that gets lost in the comparison. I think BC has been better, but Babcock helped put the team in a position for change to happen. Unfortunately he did not draft well. A lot of franchises would prefer to rebuild the Babcock way, but Babcock never really had a chance to follow through his plan. BC is much more diplomatic and well respected which makes him better IMO, but he definitely has his flaws. Wayne Embry also cleared tons of cap space for BC to take the reins and operate. Babcock had to deal with Grunwald's disasterous spending.

jrob23
03-03-2009, 12:22 PM
- Jose can't keep anyone in front of him.


1000000000 % truth



get him the **** out of here

or it'll just be the same results next season

ThisIsAbsurd
03-03-2009, 12:47 PM
If they can win 10 of 12 coming up, they should be no more than two games out of the playoffs. This is by no means impossible...

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 01:53 PM
If they can win 10 of 12 coming up, they should be no more than two games out of the playoffs. This is by no means impossible...

Impossible? No. Realistic? Absolutely not. Forget it, the season is over. If they were going to show signs of having some fight they would have by now. At this point a win streak hurts their off-season. They're not going to be able to put together a playoff run and so every win simply moves them back in the lotto. Damn, I thought these days were in the rear view mirror...

ink
03-03-2009, 02:00 PM
Impossible? No. Realistic? Absolutely not. Forget it, the season is over. If they were going to show signs of having some fight they would have by now. At this point a win streak hurts their off-season. They're not going to be able to put together a playoff run and so every win simply moves them back in the lotto. Damn, I thought these days were in the rear view mirror...

I agree with that. I'm still interested in watching every game because this transitional time doesn't frustrate me nearly as much as it seems to frustrate a lot of people. Developing players are erratic and inconsistent, and I want to be watching when they actually do fire on all cylinders every now and then. That's how it's happening with Bargnani. People who are expecting this team to be a "winner" this season are watching the wrong team. Still, there are lots of reasons to watch them right now.

btw, you're right about the rear view mirror. I think a lot of us thought we passed this a couple of years ago, but it was a false alarm. I keep thinking about the Bulls' big setback season from a few years ago ...

Bob_at_york
03-03-2009, 02:27 PM
btw, you're right about the rear view mirror. I think a lot of us thought we passed this a couple of years ago, but it was a false alarm. I keep thinking about the Bulls' big setback season from a few years ago ...
I remember that. Wasn't that when they acquired Ben Wallace? If I am right then it is interesting that we also fell back when we acquired a big man that people hoped would put us over the top.

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 02:30 PM
It depends on how you define "winner". If you mean more wins than losses then based on what virtually everyone was saying in here prior to the season starting and even prior to Sam getting thrown under the bus once and for all, then I would say people are not watching the wrong team, they were simply placing the blame on the wrong person's shoulders until now(Brian Colangelo). If by "winner" you mean "contender" then, yeah, they've been watching the wrong team for well over a decade.

I'm not suggesting that its not worth while to watch but right here and now I'm saying that I think a majority of people are extremely disappointed in the product Brian Colangelo put on the floor. He promised big things during the off-season and so did his product. None of that materialized. People have a right to be upset and even the "real fans" should not feel guilty for politely taking a pass on games that have been resulting in pathetic losses during a time where the team is obviously phoning it in. I know I'm no longer watching every game or every game in its entirety. Its tough to justify slotting that much time in for something that only leads to frustration and disgust.

ink
03-03-2009, 02:52 PM
^ I hear you, I just realize that we were mistaken in believing the team was going to be that good this year. BC was mistaken too, and he'll have to correct the situation. I'm not angry about it though. The team just isn't there and the developing parts just aren't ready for prime time. Sometimes there are HUGE setbacks just before a team breaks through. I still think back to some of the Raptors rosters in the past and can easily see the difference. There is more ability on this team than they are showing on a consistent basis. Like I said, I watch them to see them break through when they do. It does me no good to get stressed about something I can't control. Maybe it's because I've coached a lot and I've seen athletes take longer to develop than I expected. Still, sometimes they surprise you and you see flashes of what they'll be in a few years.

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 02:57 PM
The pieces don't fit and there aren't enough good pieces. That is a direct reflection of Brian Colangelo's moves because he entered into a situation where he had a clean canvas to work with. He needs to find glue guys to make the thing work. Losing Rasho, TJ and Jorge was a huge loss. They did far more for this team than shows up on a stats sheet.

ink
03-03-2009, 03:03 PM
The pieces don't fit and there aren't enough good pieces. That is a direct reflection of Brian Colangelo's moves because he entered into a situation where he had a clean canvas to work with. He needs to find glue guys to make the thing work. Losing Rasho, TJ and Jorge was a huge loss. They did far more for this team than shows up on a stats sheet.

Agreed. There's a ton of work to be done. I hope he doesn't believe in any way that he's close with the overall roster. As for the parts, he still has 5 or 6 extremely valuable pieces: Bosh, Bargnani, Calderon, Marion (pending signing), Graham (bench), and even Ukic. A few of those names seem to be frustrating the hell out of Raptors fans, but it's all part of the game. They're all talented and still capable of playing some extraordinary ball. The problem has been injury and consistency. We need to see them produce every single game, not just in flashes. As you say, they don't fit that well together because they need the glue guys to hold them together. Marion is a super-glue guy, so I hope BC finds a way to hang on to him AND improve the chemistry and composition of the rest of the roster at the same time. Maybe Rasho will be available to us again, we need the heart of a TJ, and we need the toughness and team savvy of a Jorge.

GodsSon
03-03-2009, 03:22 PM
As i've said before, its a conflicting issue for me. Obviously I tune in to each game, and search for the best online links because I want to see them win; not because I enjoy watching them get beaten. With that said, as it currently stands they have to leap-frog over 5 teams that seem to be doing better than us, so at this point, pushing for the playoffs and winning games is more detrimental to us in the long-run; as bad as that sounds. We currently have the 8th pick in the draft, which can hopefully net us a good young prospect that will eventually blossom and plug up one of our holes. A high first rounder will benefit us, as it something that we havent had since Bargs was drafted 3 years ago. All in all, im still wanting to see wins, but im already looking forward to the off-season.

the life
03-03-2009, 03:47 PM
i am a beleiver of "to each his own" " no right or wrong answers in psd" but every once in a while you run into a goon who makes a comment that is just purly and utterly not true and Babcock vs BC is an easy one, to say BC has had his faults and isnt "god" sure , but to compare him to babcock is to say you dont know ball, i dont wanna be saying you dont know ball, your on this forum so you must know ball , but then there is that comment, are you just a douche?, an angry indiv and fan? or do you acutually believe that?, cause if it is one of the first two, its understandable

You put the two tenures head to head and find they are not too different. the passion you use when talking shows me you are too subjective to make a fair analysis.
I don't want to go through all the he did and he didn't but you think after three years we are in dire waters with the team. BC time with raptors is far from being a success.

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 04:11 PM
You put the two tenures head to head and find they are not too different. the passion you use when talking shows me you are too subjective to make a fair analysis.
I don't want to go through all the he did and he didn't but you think after three years we are in dire waters with the team. BC time with raptors is far from being a success.

I don't think you can make that connection. Colangelo has had far more success no matter how easier the road was for him. There is a reason why Babcock isn't getting phone calls for GM positions. At the end of his tenure he was the laughing stock of the league.

Legitimate
03-03-2009, 04:14 PM
I honestly feel that the raps are purposely trying to tank the season. Like how the hell could they play this darn bad! grrrr.

ink
03-03-2009, 04:17 PM
I don't think you can make that connection. Colangelo has had far more success no matter how easier the road was for him. There is a reason why Babcock isn't getting phone calls for GM positions. At the end of his tenure he was the laughing stock of the league.

Which is really too bad considering SOME of his moves:

1. signed Sam, who was a good coach at a certain stage of the Raptors development.
2. scouted and signed Calderon as a UFA.
3. stole Ukic as a second rounder.
4. picked up Graham with the 16th pick.

The only drafted talent on our roster from BC's time here is Bargnani.

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 04:21 PM
Hoffa instead of Iggy. Joey G instead of Granger. I know, I know, people can't see the future but the Hoffa pick is inexcusable. Even kiss *** "Salami and Cheese" Chuck himself said as much draft night.

the life
03-03-2009, 04:41 PM
I don't think you can make that connection. Colangelo has had far more success no matter how easier the road was for him. There is a reason why Babcock isn't getting phone calls for GM positions. At the end of his tenure he was the laughing stock of the league.

you know people are subjective beings. this is why there are doulbe standards based on color, on religion, on sex, or even on clotes ore cars.

this is why lebron gets away with a lot more than joey.
this is why BC will get always a good job and babcock not.

BC reputation is partially based on "look" and on "luck"
honestly I don't think he is a lot better than Babcock.
But once you have a good name you get 3-4 chances before people realize you are not that good. when you don't have a good name sometimes is not enough to be decent in order to keep your job.

maxgraham
03-03-2009, 04:50 PM
I am surprised at that comment.

There is still an off-season with significant cap space and draft ahead of us. Probably a new coach and a lot of time to regroup. What makes next year so hopeless this soon??

well, if we had not fired our coach and traded away who we were told was our new bigman, to the mess we are now in, then i might have hope for next year... i was hoping to say "well now they've had a year to gel, next year they will be in sync and own" but no... we're back to nothing again.

if i see good trades i will have the same hope i had at the start of this seasons, but right now? i don't see much hope for next year. Granted something could totally change that and i hope/pray that it does...

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 05:36 PM
you know people are subjective beings. this is why there are doulbe standards based on color, on religion, on sex, or even on clotes ore cars.

this is why lebron gets away with a lot more than joey.
this is why BC will get always a good job and babcock not.

BC reputation is partially based on "look" and on "luck"
honestly I don't think he is a lot better than Babcock.
But once you have a good name you get 3-4 chances before people realize you are not that good. when you don't have a good name sometimes is not enough to be decent in order to keep your job.

This isn't a double standard. Colangelo hasn't made moves which have placed the franchise back years. Of course he gets less criticism because he's a more likable guy and that's not fair but in a fair world he would still deserve less than Babcock. Babcock made a couple major mistakes. Its not about quantity, its about quality. Those couple mistakes were substantial. This is what you're missing. You're also missing the point that overall he didn't seem to have the type of personality to be a strong leader/deal maker. Leading up to him being fired there reports that he simply could get nowhere with other GMs anymore because they didn't respect him. You're not getting anywhere in negotiations when the other guy views you as a weak, lame duck.

the life
03-03-2009, 06:13 PM
This isn't a double standard. Colangelo hasn't made moves which have placed the franchise back years. Of course he gets less criticism because he's a more likable guy and that's not fair but in a fair world he would still deserve less than Babcock. Babcock made a couple major mistakes. Its not about quantity, its about quality. Those couple mistakes were substantial. This is what you're missing. You're also missing the point that overall he didn't seem to have the type of personality to be a strong leader/deal maker. Leading up to him being fired there reports that he simply could get nowhere with other GMs anymore because they didn't respect him. You're not getting anywhere in negotiations when the other guy views you as a weak, lame duck.

What move of babcock place the team back?
It was hoffa trade? It was the VC trade?

VC trade was a hard think to complete. He wanted out of here. Everybody around the league knew that. He did the best he could.

Hoffa was a mistake but this didn't distroyed the franchise.

I will see how BC resolves Bosh problem if he wants to leave.

J_B
03-03-2009, 07:30 PM
Raptors can still make it...Milwaukee doesnt have a huge number of wins from the raptors. Theres still a chance

ink
03-03-2009, 07:58 PM
Hoffa instead of Iggy. Joey G instead of Granger. I know, I know, people can't see the future but the Hoffa pick is inexcusable. Even kiss *** "Salami and Cheese" Chuck himself said as much draft night.

Trust me I know about the mistakes.

LD V2.0
03-03-2009, 08:36 PM
What move of babcock place the team back?
It was hoffa trade? It was the VC trade?

VC trade was a hard think to complete. He wanted out of here. Everybody around the league knew that. He did the best he could.

Hoffa was a mistake but this didn't distroyed the franchise.

I will see how BC resolves Bosh problem if he wants to leave.

...A mid round pick, two stiffs and a guy who he had to pay $10M not to come play here is a good deal given the circumstances? That deal sucked and Babcock didn't even wait until the trade deadline was close to make that move. That deal set the team back a lot. Not only did he not get an impact player in return but it also did nothing to help the cap.

Same cap number - Vince Carter + Garbage players who didn't want to come here + a late round pick in a weak draft = A ****ing horrible deal that put the team back years

The fact that he drafted Hoffa, who turned out to be a total bust did set them back time. That's a high draft pick that was thrown away. They got nothing at all for the 8th pick in the draft. Hoffa is ****ing playing in Russia for crying out loud. It was amazing that Colangelo managed to get a serviceable player in Kris Humphries back for the slow footed, slow minded stiff.

I get it, you're not happy with Colangelo and neither am I but you're stretching it a great deal. Babcock was totally horrible where as while Colangelo has had little success NONE of his decision to this point are far reaching negative impact moves on the future. The now sucks, and the future may suck but we don't know that. What we do know is that Colangelo has left himself the flexibility to fix problems he's created. Babcock didn't do that and even if he did, which he actually didn't, he created a reputation which would have prevented him from being successful regardless. All indications from news articles suggest that Colangelo is still highly respected.

ink
03-03-2009, 08:54 PM
What we do know is that Colangelo has left himself the flexibility to fix problems he's created.

The JO deal gave him that flexibility. As maligned as the results have been, you can see that he gave himself a lot of options with it. He also demonstrated clearly to Bosh that he was busting his *** to get him someone to play along side. Bosh has had both JO and Marion by his side this year, and it has exposed weaknesses in his own game that Bosh will have to address. Those flaws will not go unnoticed around the league and will give Bosh less clout when 2010 comes around.

Essentially BC called the 2010 bluff by bringing in those two big names. See what I mean? Bosh cannot say that Colangelo never gave him elite players to play with. Now the pressure is also on Bosh to produce. Meanwhile, BC has the cap room to do some work this off-season.

pebloemer
03-04-2009, 09:49 AM
...A mid round pick, two stiffs and a guy who he had to pay $10M not to come play here is a good deal given the circumstances? That deal sucked and Babcock didn't even wait until the trade deadline was close to make that move. That deal set the team back a lot. Not only did he not get an impact player in return but it also did nothing to help the cap.

Same cap number - Vince Carter + Garbage players who didn't want to come here + a late round pick in a weak draft = A ****ing horrible deal that put the team back years

The fact that he drafted Hoffa, who turned out to be a total bust did set them back time. That's a high draft pick that was thrown away. They got nothing at all for the 8th pick in the draft. Hoffa is ****ing playing in Russia for crying out loud. It was amazing that Colangelo managed to get a serviceable player in Kris Humphries back for the slow footed, slow minded stiff.

I get it, you're not happy with Colangelo and neither am I but you're stretching it a great deal. Babcock was totally horrible where as while Colangelo has had little success NONE of his decision to this point are far reaching negative impact moves on the future. The now sucks, and the future may suck but we don't know that. What we do know is that Colangelo has left himself the flexibility to fix problems he's created. Babcock didn't do that and even if he did, which he actually didn't, he created a reputation which would have prevented him from being successful regardless. All indications from news articles suggest that Colangelo is still highly respected.

Highlights of Babcock's career as Raptor's GM:

Drafted Araujo 8th overall pick.
Signed Rafer Alston to 5 year deal.
Signed Jose Calderon.
Traded Vince Carter for Mourning, Williams, Williams, 2 1st round picks.
Drafted Roko Ukic, Joey Graham, Charlie Villanueva.
Traded Alston for Mike James.

Aruajo was a terrible pick. Just terrible. Babcock took the reins late and all but there are no excuses with this one.

Signed Rafer: Initially I thought the move wasn't bad. Rafer played great for us the year prior after all his 10day contracts. It was Rafer and Sam clashing that led to him heading out for Mike James. That deal worked better, but ultimately both events were unconsequential for the franchise.

Vince Trade: Question: Would anyone be upset with the Vince trade if Babcock chose Granger over Graham? Cap relief and a young stud in Granger for Carter sounds like a decent deal to me. I call Babcock's fault here on the draft, not the trade. The other pick was used to package Jalen Rose's contract to NY and give us cap relief.

Signed Jose Calderon. Jose has been great to the franchise and was a great signing for cheap. If people are upset with him this year, it goes on Colangelo, not Babcock as Colangelo resigned him.

Drafted Roko Ukic - may become a very good move.

My analysis of the Babcock days are not critiques on his process to building the team - my only faults to him were his draft choices. If he drafted better, the team would have had a great core.

By contrast: BC is a much better business man and much more well respected which allows him to make better signings IMO. BC's process is what I have a problem with at times. He trades picks and seems impulsive at times with signings. But he is also bold and determined to make the team better.

We are comparing two GM's of a very different mold. I think Babcock's mold was much more suited to sustained success and BC's mold is much more suited to immediate success.

Wayne Embry's job in between these two should be noted. He completed Babcock's job in clearing cap by trading Rose and Aaron Williams.

The combination of Embry and Babcock created the cap space for BC to sign Garbo, Parker - trade for Nesterovic, etc. The GM's moves can not be seen in isolation from each other because each other's moves were contingent on one another. Babcock's moves were contingent on Vince wanting out, the team having no cap space and the team underperforming (result of Grunwald's tenure). Colangelo's moves were contingent on lots of cap space, a 1st overall pick, a budding superstar in Bosh and sleeper spanish point guard developing.

So who was a better GM? They were both doing a different job with a different focus. BC accomplished his better IMO because he was able to resign Bosh and because BC is more of a leader. Babcock drafted poorly but overall did the franchise some favours with his focus and many of his moves - but it needs to be seen in conjuction with Wayne Embry.

That's my take. I think Babcock's failures are over-exaggerated and the positives of his time here are often overlooked.

LD V2.0
03-04-2009, 10:17 AM
Vince Trade: Question: Would anyone be upset with the Vince trade if Babcock chose Granger over Graham? Cap relief and a young stud in Granger for Carter sounds like a decent deal to me. I call Babcock's fault here on the draft, not the trade. The other pick was used to package Jalen Rose's contract to NY and give us cap relief.

YES, they would. You don't get it. He gave Carter away for a pile of ****. He didn't get an impact player in return. Draft picks are a gamble and no one knew what would be available at that point in the draft and even so, it was still a mid round draft pick. When you deal an all-star, the franchise player, in his prime and the highlight of the trade is a draft pick in the second half of the first round then there's a major problem. That trade was horrible and it didn't matter what he took away from the draft because there and then that's irrelevant. Looking back on it, its still irrelevant. Babcock gave Carter away for someone else's garbage. It was the worst trade in franchise history and its one of these worst trades in the modern era of basketball.

Oh and FYI, Babcock couldn't get a deal done with NYC, it was Wayne Embry who came in and did the job the RIGHT way.

pebloemer
03-04-2009, 10:50 AM
YES, they would. You don't get it. He gave Carter away for a pile of ****. He didn't get an impact player in return. Draft picks are a gamble and no one knew what would be available at that point in the draft and even so, it was still a mid round draft pick. When you deal an all-star, the franchise player, in his prime and the highlight of the trade is a draft pick in the second half of the first round then there's a major problem. That trade was horrible and it didn't matter what he took away from the draft because there and then that's irrelevant. Looking back on it, its still irrelevant. Babcock gave Carter away for someone else's garbage. It was the worst trade in franchise history and its one of these worst trades in the modern era of basketball.

Oh and FYI, Babcock couldn't get a deal done with NYC, it was Wayne Embry who came in and did the job the RIGHT way.

I stated, "Wayne Embry's job in between these two should be noted. He completed Babcock's job in clearing cap by trading Rose and Aaron Williams."

as well as: "Babcock drafted poorly but overall did the franchise some favours with his focus and many of his moves - but it needs to be seen in conjuction with Wayne Embry."

My statement was that Babcock inherited a disaster and BC inherited a team with opportunity. Vince Carter did Babcock 0 favours in stating he wants to be traded. He was injury prone for years and he quit on his team. I am afraid that in spite of his talent level, the offers for him around the league were probably not as high as they should have been. It isn't always easy trading a problem, especially when everyone knows it is a problem. Embry couldn't have done it properly without the OTHER pick received in the deal, which you seem to exclude when you talk about the trade. It opened a door to trade Rose's contract. At the time of the trade, Eric Williams was playing very well for the Nets. This turned out the be a fluke, but there were many analysts at the time that stated the best you'd get for the guy is a serviceable starter, expiring contracts and some picks (notably Bob McCown - who I don't rely on for basketball advice, but in this case he was absolutely correct). Eric Williams at that time was a serviceable starter.

Any other deals rumoured at the time seem much better? If my memory serves me correct, it was always involving some bigger name player but also player with long contracts. You can't rebuild with long contract. You can with assets, which Babcock collected.

Look I see Babcock's career littered with mistakes, but this trade does not top my list. In the end it worked towards a better solution than trading for another star IMO. His process was very much needed at the time of Babcock's tenure, his mistakes within that process, although significant, do not overshadow the mistakes of Grunwald to get the franchise in such a mess. Babcock's rebuilding focus at least gave the team some options moving forward.

Frank Costanza
03-04-2009, 04:26 PM
great babcock vs brian stuff, almost warrents its own thread, frank wont make it , but some of the heavy posters in here should and see where it goes, as for the white flag, love how there are die hards waiting for the math, you are an inspiration for us all, and i was all with you until last night, now frank doesnt just jump on and off on ONE win or ONE loss, but these guys, they , they just dont have it this yr, a mountain to climb with the right tools in place but no one seems to belive they can get over

LD V2.0
03-04-2009, 04:32 PM
Look I see Babcock's career littered with mistakes, but this trade does not top my list. In the end it worked towards a better solution than trading for another star IMO. His process was very much needed at the time of Babcock's tenure, his mistakes within that process, although significant, do not overshadow the mistakes of Grunwald to get the franchise in such a mess. Babcock's rebuilding focus at least gave the team some options moving forward.

He didn't even get a prospect. He got a draft pick or two. Not one player was worth anything to the team. Were there any rumored trades that were better you ask? Gee, I don't know, maybe if he waited until most GM's decide whether or not to make a deal (approaching the trade deadline???) then maybe he would have had some results? To me he totally jumped the gun and based on reviews of the trade at the time, he totally jumped the gun. He married the first girl to wink at him and any self respecting man knows you play the field before planting your seed.

Frank Costanza
03-04-2009, 04:48 PM
He didn't even get a prospect. He got a draft pick or two. Not one player was worth anything to the team. Were there any rumored trades that were better you ask? Gee, I don't know, maybe if he waited until most GM's decide whether or not to make a deal (approaching the trade deadline???) then maybe he would have had some results? To me he totally jumped the gun and based on reviews of the trade at the time, he totally jumped the gun. He married the first girl to wink at him and any self respecting man knows you play the field before planting your seed.

if i may jump in, there were lots of rumours for vince and babcock pretty much took the worst offer in the history, note ; in late aug and early sept the philadelphia 76ers approached the raptors about a potential AI for VC trade straight up no scrubs involved,

second the sac kings were dying to rid themselves of Chris webbers 18 mill contract and had only one servicable wing man in peja who with VC would have made a sick swing duo

third, any kid in any playground with sports cards who were making a "trade" as we all did as kids woulda asked for a better deal for VC than the "smells like hot garbage" they got

LD V2.0
03-04-2009, 04:53 PM
Dubious Raptor Moment #2

December 2004: Vince Carter Traded
"Who'd we get? Richard Jefferson?" - Jalen Rose

Sadly Jalen, the Raptors did not pry any comparable talent away from the New Jersey Nets when trading 7-time All-Star, former Slam Dunk Champion, and arguably the most popular player in the post-Jordan era of the NBA. They did however get 2 draft picks, 2 career journeymen, and a $10 million a year centre whom team doctors would not allow to play. Not mentioned in the press was that GM Rob Babcock received a giant wedgie from Nets GM Rod Thorn as well.

The good news about this trade: Vince Carter ended up taking a loss on the sale of his exclusive condo on the waterfront.

The bad news was that this wasn't just a case of trading a quarter for two dimes, it was akin to leaving the keys in the ignition of your unlocked Porsche. 98-pound nerds fought harder to hold on to their lunch money. Paris Hilton put more consideration into giving up her virginity. After the trade was announced, many Native Americans exclaimed, "Whoa, now that's a bad deal!"

If you're going to so injure a franchise by making a trade such as this, why not just NOT make a trade? Let Vince continue to destroy his reputation, and then wait for perhaps something better to come along OR reap the rewards of the inevitable run-up to free agency year (coincidentally it's this year) that New Jersey will now enjoy instead?

Was this really the best offer the Raptors could get? If so, why wasn't Vince Carter at least a little embarassed by it? He was doggin' it out there and admitted as much afterwards. Was he that convincing in his indifferent play that the best offer was the one New Jersey put out there?

Have I run out of rhetorical questions? No!

Why didn't the Raptors sue Vince Carter? His inability to be a professional caused serious harm to the franchise and probably cost the Raptors a lot of money. If I purposely deleted all the information on my company's servers I think I wouldn't just be fired, I'd be liable for damages incurred. But no, Vince gets shipped off to New Jersey with his big fat contract intact and Raptors fans are left holding Alonzo Mourning's kidney.
The Flagrancy (http://theflagrancy.typepad.com/the_flagrancy/2006/11/dubious_raptor_.html)


if i may jump in, there were lots of rumours for vince and babcock pretty much took the worst offer in the history, note ; in late aug and early sept the philadelphia 76ers approached the raptors about a potential AI for VC trade straight up no scrubs involved,

second the sac kings were dying to rid themselves of Chris webbers 18 mill contract and had only one servicable wing man in peja who with VC would have made a sick swing duo

third, any kid in any playground with sports cards who were making a "trade" as we all did as kids woulda asked for a better deal for VC than the "smells like hot garbage" they got

There were Ray Allen rumors in that summer as well...

Frank Costanza
03-04-2009, 04:56 PM
great read. whered you find that LD?? you seem to be great with research any chance you can find some stuff on the VINce for Ai rumours, to shut some of these babcock loving goons in here up:????

LD V2.0
03-04-2009, 05:03 PM
If you liked that then check out the whole list:

http://theflagrancy.typepad.com/the_flagrancy/2006/11/dubious_raptor__2.html

All 50 of them and if you've been around since the beginning like I have there are lots of laughs to be had!

I can take a look tonight for you. Right now I have to jet, literally. Calgary bound. :)

ink
03-04-2009, 05:12 PM
great read. whered you find that LD?? you seem to be great with research any chance you can find some stuff on the VINce for Ai rumours, to shut some of these babcock loving goons in here up:????

Just in case you misread any of my comments about Babcock, I like balance, so I want to give some props (where deserved) to a GM that gets nothing but crap. There are always different sides to issues and that's what makes all this interesting. Don't assume that anyone who compliments Babcock, Bosh, Colangelo, Bargnani, Calderon, Parker, or any other person who's had to endure hate on the internet or the media, is a "_______ loving goon".

pebloemer
03-04-2009, 05:17 PM
great read. whered you find that LD?? you seem to be great with research any chance you can find some stuff on the VINce for Ai rumours, to shut some of these babcock loving goons in here up:????

I wouldn't call myself a Babcock loving goon and I doubt the life would either. I am just trying to add context and a perspective that seems to be lost among many posters. Babcock inherited a terrible situation and Colangelo inherited a flexible situation. Colangelo's flexible situation was due to directly or indirectly to moves that Babcock made. Moves made by a GM affect the decisions of a franchise, often for many years after the GM has past so in looking at the GM history, the Raptor's have been managed very poorly and BC is a part of that, Grunwald is a part of that, and Babcock is a part of that. While people always bash Babcock, they forget that it is Grunwald who created the disaster in the first place.

ink
03-04-2009, 05:25 PM
I wouldn't call myself a Babcock loving goon and I doubt the life would either. I am just trying to add context and a perspective that seems to be lost among many posters. Babcock inherited a terrible situation and Colangelo inherited a flexible situation. Colangelo's flexible situation was due to directly or indirectly to moves that Babcock made. Moves made by a GM affect the decisions of a franchise, often for many years after the GM has past so in looking at the GM history, the Raptor's have been managed very poorly and BC is a part of that, Grunwald is a part of that, and Babcock is a part of that. While people always bash Babcock, they forget that it is Grunwald who created the disaster in the first place.

True. And they also forget that no matter how good BC's situation was, there were still major problems with the franchise when he took over. He had very little talent developing even though Babcock managed to bring in a few good players (Calderon, Ukic, Graham), and he had very few VALUABLE assets left to trade. We could fight back and forth forever on which GM should take most of the blame but it would be a complete waste of time. It was a combination of all of them, and Colangelo is in the unenviable position of trying to make a winner out of a loser franchise. That is the long and short of it.

Doesn't mean for a second that I stop cheering for them. This GM needs our support because we can't afford to have another complete collapse.. That's why I don't get why people can't see that we have made improvements. Holy ****! We are NOT going to change the losing culture and the terrible management culture in this franchise overnight. It takes time!

That's why to me it doesn't matter whether we "fly the white flag" or not. It's almost irrelevant to the process. This team is not a playoff team. It's a developing team. This year we get as far as we can and try to build again in the off-season. Then next year we get as far as we can and try to build again after that off-season. It's like climbing Everest and moving your camp incrementally up the mountain.

Frank Costanza
03-05-2009, 10:06 AM
great repsonses guys, didnt mean to bash anyone, but it did stir up quite a great thread for us all, and for that frank is thankful

GodsSon
03-05-2009, 12:37 PM
There were Ray Allen rumors in that summer as well...

And B Diddy and Magloire rumours, and Pau and Stro rumours...uhhh lol

Frank Costanza
03-05-2009, 01:15 PM
And B Diddy and Magloire rumours, and Pau and Stro rumours...uhhh lol

can u imagine if we got pau to play with bosh, and had jalen roses 17 mill expeiring to get a good guard , we coulda been miles ahead of now, but in retrospect, i wouldnt want a babcock on my team thats just staying afloat, it was almost wortth it to sink to where we did, bring in a winner in BC, and see what he can do other than this season (which is the players fault 1st then bcs for the early smitch firing with no replacement ready)