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View Full Version : LeBron James is #1 in the "clutch" (facts in thread)



RaysFan
02-28-2009, 09:09 PM
http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

The part of LeBron's game that is the most underrated is his ability at "crunch time". LeBron is #1 in the NBA right now when it comes to clutch time statistics and game-winning shots.

I know that most will be shocked by this evidence, but it is right there for anyone to see.

madiaz3
02-28-2009, 09:10 PM
Why are we supposed to be shocked?

cambovenzi
02-28-2009, 09:14 PM
we are talking about a handful of games and shots here.
as well as the 1st one is pretty damn flawed.

he also doesnt have the highest FG% or any variant of that.

some of these shots are halfcourt bombs.
some are layups.
some are shots people had to jackup with no time left.

theuuord
02-28-2009, 09:16 PM
LeBron fans will love this and use it as ammo. Kobe fans will revolt and say that the stat doesn't matter. Unbiased fans will argue for either side. Flame war will result. Thread will get locked.


Congrats, I just saved you 200 posts of the same old arguments we've seen on this forum a thousand times.

In before the lock

marlinsfan24
02-28-2009, 09:17 PM
Please lock this, this is just a flame war waiting to begin

madiaz3
02-28-2009, 09:18 PM
Besides, these stats are only being tracked are only since Lebron entered the league. Pretty sure he's had his share of clutch moments during the three peat.

That is all, agreed with theuuord.

RaysFan
02-28-2009, 09:19 PM
Since TO's advance a ball to halfcourt in the NBA, you don't see a great deal of halfcourt heaves. And if you do, they probably have balanced out over the course of 4 seasons.

But do you think it is just dumb luck that LeBron leads the NBA in both game-winning shots over the last 4 years and also in "clutch-time" statistics over the last few years? I don't. LeBron is VASTLY underrated in that part of his game. For some reason the media feels he lacks in the clutch moment, even though he has hit more game-winning shots on less attempts than the perceived king of clutch, Kobe Bryant.

superkegger
02-28-2009, 09:20 PM
Melo seems to be probably the most clutch guy out there. Right there with LeBron and Kobe in terms of points, he shoots a phenomenal % both from the field and from 3, far better than both Kobe and LeBron, and is very unlikely to turn it over.

RaysFan
02-28-2009, 09:21 PM
BTW, I am not a Kobe or LeBron fan. I am a Magic fan. I actually have liked Kobe because I always used to side with him over Shaq because I hate Shaq (obvious reasons).

madiaz3
02-28-2009, 09:21 PM
Since TO's advance a ball to halfcourt in the NBA, you don't see a great deal of halfcourt heaves. And if you do, they probably have balanced out over the course of 4 seasons.

But do you think it is just dumb luck that LeBron leads the NBA in both game-winning shots over the last 4 years and also in "clutch-time" statistics over the last few years? I don't. LeBron is VASTLY underrated in that part of his game. For some reason the media feels he lacks in the clutch moment, even though he has hit more game-winning shots on less attempts than the perceived king of clutch, Kobe Bryant.

He's the "perceived king of clutch" because he already built that reputation in the years before Lebron came into the league.

RaysFan
02-28-2009, 09:22 PM
Melo seems to be probably the most clutch guy out there. Right there with LeBron and Kobe in terms of points, he shoots a phenomenal % both from the field and from 3, far better than both Kobe and LeBron, and is very unlikely to turn it over.

Agreed. I have always liked Ray Allen if I needed a last-second shot though...especially a 3.

cambovenzi
02-28-2009, 09:22 PM
Melo seems to be probably the most clutch guy out there. Right there with LeBron and Kobe in terms of points, he shoots a phenomenal % both from the field and from 3, far better than both Kobe and LeBron, and is very unlikely to turn it over.

well kobe is a shooting guard.
and lebron closer to a SG than melo IMO.
meaning they get the ball in more low percentage shots than melo.
who will get maybe an open 3 or something.

RaysFan
02-28-2009, 09:24 PM
He's the "perceived king of clutch" because he already built that reputation in the years before Lebron came into the league.

Maybe. I don't have those facts in front of me. I would like to see them before I buy into that notion. But that still doesn't mean he is better than LeBron right now. A 4 year period is pretty damning if you are Kobe Bryant...especially since the last 4 years have been when he was in his prime and Bron was 20, 21, 22, and 23.

Skin&Bones
02-28-2009, 09:26 PM
Hmmm...I guess almost all the GM's in the NBA are wrong. That includes head coaches such as Pop, Phil and so on and so forth. But don't worry I trust the guys who actually build team winners and actually knows the game for years rather than some stats....so no thanks.

RaysFan
02-28-2009, 09:30 PM
Hmmm...I guess almost all the GM's in the NBA are wrong. That includes head coaches such as Pop, Phil and so on and so forth. But don't worry I trust the guys who actually build team winners and actually knows the game for years rather than some stats....so no thanks.

What do you want me to say? Facts are facts. Kobe Bryant shoots more and makes less than LeBron has over the last 4 years.

JJ81
02-28-2009, 09:30 PM
Still, there's a bunch of guys I'd rather take the last shot.

ap18016
02-28-2009, 09:31 PM
Kobe is better. Kobe never gets the chance to prove he is clutch because his team dominates everyone. The Cavs play every game down to the wire so therefore resolving in LBJ getting opportunities.

Skin&Bones
02-28-2009, 09:33 PM
What do you want me to say? Facts are facts. Kobe Bryant shoots more and makes less than LeBron has over the last 4 years.

Yea probably I should start trusting the Bowl Championship Series:speechless:

superkegger
02-28-2009, 09:36 PM
well kobe is a shooting guard.
and lebron closer to a SG than melo IMO.
meaning they get the ball in more low percentage shots than melo.
who will get maybe an open 3 or something.

Maybe.

Though 57% of Melo's "clutch" buckets are assisted upon, but that's just part of him not being a primary ball handler.

Either which way, he's 13 for 27 on game winning shots, .481%, better percentage than anyone else in the top 10 in game winning shots made.

And what does the position they play matter when it comes to clutch? Coming through when your team needs it most is what melo does, and he does it with incredible efficiency.

Of the guys in the top 15 in FGA, only Melo, Paul and Lebron shoot .500 or better, and Melo is the only one who shoots over .600, same goes for those same 15 guys and their 3 point shooting. Only Rose and Melo shoot over .500 and only Melo shoots over .600

I dont know about you, but if among the top 15 shot attempting guys in the leauge in clutch situations, Melo scores with greater efficiency, and at the same rate as anyone else, I'd say that makes him my clutch go to guy.

superkegger
02-28-2009, 09:38 PM
Kobe is better. Kobe never gets the chance to prove he is clutch because his team dominates everyone. The Cavs play every game down to the wire so therefore resolving in LBJ getting opportunities.

Then you didn't look at the stats, because Kobe has 110 "clutch" minutes played this year, and LeBron has 62. So apparently the Lakers have played in a lot more close games.

And over the past 5 years, kobe has taken more game winning shot attempts than anyone else.

RaysFan
02-28-2009, 09:40 PM
Kobe is better. Kobe never gets the chance to prove he is clutch because his team dominates everyone. The Cavs play every game down to the wire so therefore resolving in LBJ getting opportunities.

Kobe has actually taken more game-winning shots over the last 4 years. :)

theuuord
02-28-2009, 10:15 PM
guys i'm pretty sure this video will solve everything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcOZ6xFxJqg

lorenz00
02-28-2009, 10:51 PM
o my this is BS how many game winning shots did LBJ did to his career? isnt just 1? and it came this year against Warriors? this is just bs man

RaysFan
02-28-2009, 10:59 PM
o my this is BS how many game winning shots did LBJ did to his career? isnt just 1? and it came this year against Warriors? this is just bs man

No, you are wrong.

lakers4sho
02-28-2009, 11:03 PM
Melo is the most clutch player in the league right now.

soundjunkies2
02-28-2009, 11:03 PM
o my this is BS how many game winning shots did LBJ did to his career? isnt just 1? and it came this year against Warriors? this is just bs man

If by game winning you mean buzzer beaters then yes just 1.

Kenny
02-28-2009, 11:15 PM
wtf is there to be shocked about he took a terrible team and carried them to the finals and last year scored 45 in game 7..

marlinsfan24
02-28-2009, 11:16 PM
Watch Sportscenter tonight, and you'll see the definition of clutch.

b_rad23
02-28-2009, 11:21 PM
It's really the percentages that count more than the fgs made. Then you can look at the fgm once you have the best in percentages.

ddaughtry
02-28-2009, 11:40 PM
Kobe is the most clutch player in the NBA. Most of the coaches in the league said they would want Kobe to take the last shot in a game. Enough said.

kswissdaf
02-28-2009, 11:46 PM
These stats are so misleading

NYMetros
02-28-2009, 11:51 PM
These stats are so misleading

How so? They are pretty straight forward and basic. Who does the best with last chance shots to win the game? That's what these stats tell us.

PackerGuru
02-28-2009, 11:53 PM
D-Wade is way more clutch then LBJ!!! People need to stop hating on Wade, I still don't know when LBJ passed him.

heatking
03-01-2009, 12:00 AM
have any of you guys ever seen dwade play. just stop it with the whole kobe lebron BS wade is up there and FAR more clutch than lebron. kobe is in the same league of wade clutchwise

Kohaku
03-01-2009, 01:07 AM
Melo for the last shot.

NYMetros
03-01-2009, 01:19 AM
have any of you guys ever seen dwade play. just stop it with the whole kobe lebron BS wade is up there and FAR more clutch than lebron. kobe is in the same league of wade clutchwise

Yes, I have indeed seen Wade play, and I enjoyed it very much.

Wade is MUCH clutcher than LeBron, huh?

Off of these stats, LeBron has the edge in FG%, 3 point%, FT%, and assists. Wade has the edge in Ast'd and turnovers. I fail to see how Wade is "far more" clutch than LeBron here.

And don't get me wrong. I love Wade and think he is a top 5 player in the NBA. But there is simply no way you can say he is much better than LeBron.

superkegger
03-01-2009, 01:20 AM
How so? They are pretty straight forward and basic. Who does the best with last chance shots to win the game? That's what these stats tell us.

Well, to be fair, on the game winning shots stats, 82games.com puts out this disclaimer:


Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.


Why use this definition?

With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

Obviously though this definition means a shot may not actually be a game winner -- it may only tie a game (if down two points) or it may allow enough time for the opponents to get a game winning shot of their own. Still it seems a reasonable compromise.

ntat
03-01-2009, 01:22 AM
i dont like KObe or Lebron all that much, which is what this thread is about. those two guys. and i just have one question, there's one game, one shot to win, who do u want taking it? Kobe, thats what I thought.

ntat
03-01-2009, 01:24 AM
Melo for the last shot.

then ur team is gonna lose a lot.

heatking
03-01-2009, 01:27 AM
Yes, I have indeed seen Wade play, and I enjoyed it very much.

Wade is MUCH clutcher than LeBron, huh?

Off of these stats, LeBron has the edge in FG%, 3 point%, FT%, and assists. Wade has the edge in Ast'd and turnovers. I fail to see how Wade is "far more" clutch than LeBron here.

And don't get me wrong. I love Wade and think he is a top 5 player in the NBA. But there is simply no way you can say he is much better than LeBron.

stats dont mean anything when it comes to clutch. u need to notice the hustle, the intencity. and the killer instinct wade has when it comes to clutch.

soundjunkies2
03-01-2009, 01:29 AM
then ur team is gonna lose a lot.

Hes 13 for 27 in game winning situations.Thats a better percentage than anyone else on the list above him.Id feel pretty confident with Melo taking the last shot.

superkegger
03-01-2009, 01:31 AM
stats dont mean anything when it comes to clutch. u need to notice the hustle, the intencity. and the killer instinct wade has when it comes to clutch.

So shot making in clutch situations means nothing? Field goal percentage in the last 5 minutes is not relevant? Any player can have all the intensity and hustle in the world, and want it more than anyone else, but if you don't make shots, it doesn't matter.

heatking
03-01-2009, 01:38 AM
So shot making in clutch situations means nothing? Field goal percentage in the last 5 minutes is not relevant? Any player can have all the intensity and hustle in the world, and want it more than anyone else, but if you don't make shots, it doesn't matter.

wade is no scrub at taking the last shot either. but you are just looking at the offensive side of things i would much rather have a dwyane wade that will for sure get me at least 2 steals during that stretch, and a block or 2. than player that will make .340 and not do anything on defensive side. this is like saying bruce bowen is not a good player because it doesnt show up on the sheet. or like saying zach randolph is the best pf in the league because he has great stats.

ntat
03-01-2009, 02:08 AM
wade is no scrub at taking the last shot either. but you are just looking at the offensive side of things i would much rather have a dwyane wade that will for sure get me at least 2 steals during that stretch, and a block or 2. than player that will make .340 and not do anything on defensive side. this is like saying bruce bowen is not a good player because it doesnt show up on the sheet. or like saying zach randolph is the best pf in the league because he has great stats.

wade did have 24 in the 4th today to lead his team back from like 17 down.

superkegger
03-01-2009, 02:21 AM
wade is no scrub at taking the last shot either. but you are just looking at the offensive side of things i would much rather have a dwyane wade that will for sure get me at least 2 steals during that stretch, and a block or 2. than player that will make .340 and not do anything on defensive side. this is like saying bruce bowen is not a good player because it doesnt show up on the sheet. or like saying zach randolph is the best pf in the league because he has great stats.

Alright, lets break this down.

In the clutch, LeBron compated to Wade has significantly higher rebounding, 3pt shooting %, and FT %. He has a minimally higher FG %, assists, and points.

In the clutch, Wade compared to LeBron turns it over less, steals minimally more, and blocks a significantly amount more.

These stats cover what you just talked about. LeBron, this year, has clearly delivered more in the clutch. Wade may have had to do it more often, but LeBron has clearly been superior this year.

RaysFan
03-01-2009, 02:49 AM
i dont like KObe or Lebron all that much, which is what this thread is about. those two guys. and i just have one question, there's one game, one shot to win, who do u want taking it? Kobe, thats what I thought.

Not me. I wouldn't take Bron or Kobe but if I had to pick between the 2 then clearly it is LeBron. Not only has LeBron made more of those shots over the last few years, but he has also assisted on many more of those plays.

superkegger
03-01-2009, 02:57 AM
Not me. I wouldn't take Bron or Kobe but if I had to pick between the 2 then clearly it is LeBron. Not only has LeBron made more of those shots over the last few years, but he has also assisted on many more of those plays.

Well, if you have one shot to win a game, the stats would tell you that you wouldn't want either Kobe or LeBron taking it. Melo would then clearly be the guy you'd want taking the shot, as he's made those shots with much higher succes than either.

J-Relo
03-01-2009, 03:07 AM
LEbron is da Man

tbron
03-01-2009, 03:11 AM
no just no be clutch when it matters most then we'll talk.

BayAreaLegend
03-01-2009, 03:12 AM
LMAO, this is made by some random guy this data is not factual or produced by the NBA...

FACT: Lebron has the worst 3pt percentage of bulk shooter (100 or more attempts) in the NBA... 27%

FACT: Lebron james is below average free throw shooter....

FACT: Lebron James has made two true game winning shots at the buzzer... Against Chicago in 2006 and against the Warriors this season...

FACT: Kobe Bryant has made a game tying three to go to overtime a game tying three to go to double overtime and a game-winning jumper to win the game at the buzzer in the same game...

There is no one in the world that would rather have Lebron taking a shot or Lebron taking a free throw with the game on the line over Kobe let's be real...

Lebron is the greatest dunker and driver of the basketball ever... However, he is below average at best at shooting and horrible 3% shooter...

Kobe is the Best, Lebron is Next...

superkegger
03-01-2009, 03:15 AM
LMAO, this is made by some random guy this data is not factual or produced by the NBA...

FACT: Lebron has the worst 3pt percentage of bulk shooter (100 or more attempts) in the NBA... 27%

FACT: Lebron james is below average free throw shooter....

FACT: Lebron James has made two true game winning shots at the buzzer... Against Chicago in 2006 and against the Warriors this season...

FACT: Kobe Bryant has made a game tying three to go to overtime a game tying three to go to double overtime and a game-winning jumper to win the game at the buzzer in the same game...

There is no one in the world that would rather have Lebron taking a shot or Lebron taking a free throw with the game on the line over Kobe let's be real...

Lebron is the greatest dunker and driver of the basketball ever... However, he is below average at best at shooting and horrible 3% shooter...

Kobe is the Best, Lebron is Next...

Fact: You don't know what you're talking about.

ARMIN12NBA
03-01-2009, 03:30 AM
Fact: You don't know what you're talking about.

Except for his opinion, all those were pretty much facts. :p

superkegger
03-01-2009, 03:33 AM
Except for his opinion, all those were pretty much facts. :p

Didn't say what he said wasn't fact , I was just adding to his list for him.

Well, not totally true, in crunch time, LeBron has actually been a superb FT shooter.

And the fact still remains that in close games, LeBron has been come through for his team. He's done what is necessary to win games.

skinsfan4life80
03-01-2009, 09:14 AM
Lebron James has one buzzer beater in his whole career and it came just this year. Kobe has way more buzzer beaters then that..and he has them in much bigger games.

superkegger
03-01-2009, 03:30 PM
Lebron James has one buzzer beater in his whole career and it came just this year. Kobe has way more buzzer beaters then that..and he has them in much bigger games.

Doesn't it suck when stats don't back up what you want, so then you have to rationalize it in other ways so that you don't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, when it comes to making big shots, LeBron is on a level with Kobe.

SteveNash
03-01-2009, 07:30 PM
LeBron is not a clutch player yet.

First, you should not being looking at regular season stats to see how clutch a person is.

Second, if you notice, LeBron never bounces back from a horrible start in the playoffs. You can tell that it eats at him, that he's too worried about his performance and never have a good game.

That's why he can have performances like game 5 against Detroit or game 7 against the Celtics. It's also why he can have abysmal games like the his second game against Washington or his first game against Boston.

Until he shows the ability to put bad performances behind him, he'll never be a great clutch player.

Sidious
03-01-2009, 09:11 PM
Kobe > Lebron