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EyeBelieve
02-27-2009, 02:33 PM
As the evolution of basketball continues, where big men get bigger and more athletic, the combo guards of the league are becoming less and less desireable. Is there a combo guard out there that is a legitimate star player? Remember the definition of a combo guard is someone who is too small for the shooting guard position, yet doesn't have the skills to play the point. Lets not confuse the "scoring" points to these combo guards. Tony Parker, Mike Bibby, and Gilbert Arenas are scoring point guards. Its not like a player like Iverson CAN'T play the point, because he has the skills and ballhandling ability to do so. He just chooses to score and still dishes out 6 assists per game. The guards in question are too many to list, but I'm going to give it a shot...

Eddie House, Leandhro Barbosa, Monta Ellis, Quincy Douby, Ben Gordon, Luther Head, Gab Pruitt, Ronald Murray, Daniel Gibson, Jason Terry, CJ Watson, Fred Jones, Eric Gordon, Smush Parker, Charlie Bell, Ramon Sessions, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Cuttino Mobley, Russell Westbrook, Louis Williams, Royal Ivey, Willie Green, Jerryd Bayless, Bobby Jackson, Rashad McCants, Marcus Banks, Antonio Daniels, Mike James, Juan Dixon, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher.....

The list can go on with the players that have disappeared out of the league like Dejuan Wager and AJ Guyton. In the end, most of these players are drafted in the latter half of the first round and all throughout the second round. There are guys that I think can make the transition like Louis Williams of the Sixers, who can handle the ball extremely well and can pass. The jury is still out on some of the young guys like Westbrook and Bayless, but Portland has already been rumored to be regretting the move and was trying to trade Bayless before the deadline. Ben Gordon wanted $10M a year but got no interest and had to return to Chicago for his $6M a year. He'll more than likely, not get $10M a year from anyone this Summer. So whats the big obession with Monta Ellis over at Golden State? The guy is 6'3, is quick and athletic. Half of the guys on that list above is 6'3, quick and athletic. What people seem to overlook is that Ellis IS 6'3, weak, plays horrible defense, can't pass the ball, can't go left, is a below average ball handler for his position. So why is he making $11M a year? Bad move on the Warriors and they'll be regretting it big time sooner than later.

oldenpolynice
02-27-2009, 03:12 PM
Interesting take on the combo guard. I agree with at least 70% of the guys you listed. With that said, I think Eric Gordon is the prototype of what a SG should be. Doesn't matter how tall he is, he is strong and can defend (when he doesn't sag off his man). He's going to be very good.

Russell Westbrook also stands out to me as a guy who can be a future All-Star. Though he doesn't have a true position, he's a great defender and one of the best penetrating guards in the league right now. Once he cuts down on his turnovers he'll be fine (and he's doing well in that dept lately).

The last guy I take issue with is Bobby Jackson. The guy is at the tail end of his career. What do you expect? In his prime, he was amazing off the bench. I think any team in the league would kill to have a guy like B-Jax in his prime as their 6th man.

superkegger
02-27-2009, 03:13 PM
Interesting topic.

I'm not really sure what you're asking, or trying to get at, but here's my take.

I think combo guards are hard for teams to deal with. Take Chauncey Billups as a the perfect example. He was a combo guard when he came into the leauge, didn't really have the PG skills, and didn't really have the size to play the 2. So he bounced around a bit, before he found a system and a team that utilized his skills right in Detroit. Now he is a PG, but because he made that transition because quite frankly for teams to be successful, truly successful, playing akward lineups and putting players out of position only works for so long.
Ben Gordon, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Iverson, Jason Terry, Aaron Brooks, Russel Westbrook, Leandro Barbosa, and Monta Ellis, you see a bunch of guys who play like 2 guards, spend time there, but in many cases are just simply too small to play there. Some of them play all or most of their time at the point, and those guys tend to be more successful.

In the NBA size ultimately does matter. It's hard to be successful when your starting backcourt consists of two guys under 6'3", because all too often, the opposing team can exploit that matchup at the 2.

Perhaps is a bad example, since Kobe is one of the best players in the league and the lakers are the best team record wise in the NBA, and the Timberwolves are pretty bad. But when I watched them play the other day, LA continually went to Kobe in the high post, and he hit several post up fadeaway jumpers on Foye, because Foye, while not a great defender to start with, simply couldn't matchup with Kobe's size, and they simply exploited that matchup to no end. Maybe a bad example because of the talent disparity, but you understand my point.

Basketball is a game of matchups, and when you consistently give up size at the 2 guard position, while many other teams have significant scorers there, it's going to hurt you.

But then what does that mean you do? Put them at the point? Well, in too many cases, those combo guards simply aren't skilled enough at running the offense to play the point. It leads to a less efficient, less smoothly run offense that isn't as productive as it should be.

So either teams need to be patient with combo guards while they make the transition to PG (like the magic were with Jameer, which obviously payed dividends) or you need to adapt a style of offense that allows for the team to function without a pure pg, like the Phil Jackson's triangle, which has run very smoothly (though it's quite arguable that because of the Kobe and Michael it's hard to know how the triangle would work without a true pg and no superstar SG) without a true pg.

John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher and Jordan Farmar (kinda) have all fulfilled the role of PG within the triangle even though they are not true pg's. (Though I don't think I would call any of them 'combo guards'.

Point is, it's hard to gameplan a combo guard into any kind of convential offense, and many times, unconvential offenses (outside of the triangle that is) that incorporate the combo guard to better utilization aren't incredibly successful.

sp1derm00
02-27-2009, 05:35 PM
Fisher is not a real PG, but Farmar is definitely a PG. He has great passing skills and is great overall offensively... but he just can't defend anyone.

td0tsfinest
02-27-2009, 10:00 PM
The thing is most combo guards probably played the SG position back in High School/College but probably had to learn some PG skils due to their size. Thats why most combo guards are relatively short guy. Usually these guys get the description: too small to play SG but not enough skills to play point.

A guy like Mo williams (IMO he's a combo guard) is effective in a system where he doesn't have to handle the ball. Sure he brings the ball up but lets be honest most of their plays start with Lebron with the ball.

SwaggaIke
02-28-2009, 12:07 AM
Mo Williams, Dwyane Wade, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Delonte West are all combo guards.

what54!?
02-28-2009, 12:10 AM
D-wade is a combo guard. He's a SG with a PG's skill abilities. I think Westbrook will become one too.

Rique
02-28-2009, 12:40 AM
westbrook is gonna be a superstar

Nets fan 93
02-28-2009, 02:49 AM
Devin Harris

sp1derm00
02-28-2009, 07:48 AM
Best Combo Guard: Dwade.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-28-2009, 08:10 AM
Mo Williams, Dwyane Wade, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Delonte West are all combo guards.

Mo Williams is definitely a scoring PG, remember not to get them confused. Delonte I would say doesn't quite fall in this list too. Yes, he is a SG who used to be a PG, but that is mainly because of the addition of Mo Williams. If Cleveland did not have Mo, he would be a legitimate PG. He would have similar stats that he has now, but more assists.

I do see where you are coming from though on West.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-28-2009, 08:23 AM
Interesting topic.

I'm not really sure what you're asking, or trying to get at, but here's my take.

I think combo guards are hard for teams to deal with. Take Chauncey Billups as a the perfect example. He was a combo guard when he came into the leauge, didn't really have the PG skills, and didn't really have the size to play the 2. So he bounced around a bit, before he found a system and a team that utilized his skills right in Detroit. Now he is a PG, but because he made that transition because quite frankly for teams to be successful, truly successful, playing akward lineups and putting players out of position only works for so long.
Ben Gordon, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Iverson, Jason Terry, Aaron Brooks, Russel Westbrook, Leandro Barbosa, and Monta Ellis, you see a bunch of guys who play like 2 guards, spend time there, but in many cases are just simply too small to play there. Some of them play all or most of their time at the point, and those guys tend to be more successful.

In the NBA size ultimately does matter. It's hard to be successful when your starting backcourt consists of two guys under 6'3", because all too often, the opposing team can exploit that matchup at the 2.

Perhaps is a bad example, since Kobe is one of the best players in the league and the lakers are the best team record wise in the NBA, and the Timberwolves are pretty bad. But when I watched them play the other day, LA continually went to Kobe in the high post, and he hit several post up fadeaway jumpers on Foye, because Foye, while not a great defender to start with, simply couldn't matchup with Kobe's size, and they simply exploited that matchup to no end. Maybe a bad example because of the talent disparity, but you understand my point.

Basketball is a game of matchups, and when you consistently give up size at the 2 guard position, while many other teams have significant scorers there, it's going to hurt you.

But then what does that mean you do? Put them at the point? Well, in too many cases, those combo guards simply aren't skilled enough at running the offense to play the point. It leads to a less efficient, less smoothly run offense that isn't as productive as it should be.

So either teams need to be patient with combo guards while they make the transition to PG (like the magic were with Jameer, which obviously payed dividends) or you need to adapt a style of offense that allows for the team to function without a pure pg, like the Phil Jackson's triangle, which has run very smoothly (though it's quite arguable that because of the Kobe and Michael it's hard to know how the triangle would work without a true pg and no superstar SG) without a true pg.

John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher and Jordan Farmar (kinda) have all fulfilled the role of PG within the triangle even though they are not true pg's. (Though I don't think I would call any of them 'combo guards'.

Point is, it's hard to gameplan a combo guard into any kind of convential offense, and many times, unconvential offenses (outside of the triangle that is) that incorporate the combo guard to better utilization aren't incredibly successful.

I like your take on this.

Like you looked at the Lakers as an example, I will look at the Cavaliers.

Cleveland has Gibson, who without a doubt is a combo guard. He struggles to make solid passes, and he struggles to stay under that PG control when being pressured.

Now like you said its very hard for a coach to work Combo guards in at times. For example playing your Lakers, Gibson stands ZERO chance against Kobe on the defensive side. At the same time so does Mo Williams. So you can't put the two out there at the same time. Really you rarely see them out there ever.

Now this is where Ferry (Cleveland GM) comes into play. He goes out and trades for Mo Williams during the offseason. Mo obviously starts over Delonte at PG. So there were some controversies on if Cleveland will resign West. It ends up we do, which soon becomes a brilliant move, because of this very "combo guard" topic.

Now that Cleveland has West playing SG instead of PG, it gives Brown that edge that some teams don't have with combo guards. He is versatile, he can play PG pretty well. A lot better then Gibson. So what happens is when Gibson comes in the game he doesn't have to be the SG on defense only on offense. I think both you and I will admit it has worked terrific for Cleveland as of now.

I think that is a really good way to utilize both Gibson on offense and defense, even though he is a "combo guard" without question.

thesparky33
02-28-2009, 12:56 PM
OJ Mayo is a combo guard IMO...

b_rad23
02-28-2009, 01:13 PM
Combo guards can be good or bad. The problem is the amount of players who can't defend both positions or can't pass or facilitate an offense.

There is no problem with Dwyane Wade, Delonte (they can defend both and play both effectively) etc. but with guys like Ben Gordon who are 2s in a PG's body you have issues. They aren't good defenders and they can't be PGs so they become liabilities. Height really does count. Versatility is one thing and being a tweener is another.

WestCoastSportz
02-28-2009, 02:07 PM
Mo Williams, Dwyane Wade, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Delonte West are all combo guards.

I've thought about D-Wade and even looked up his camp measurements where he measured 6'4 without shoes which basically makes him 6'5 in the NBA. Monta Ellis measured 6'1 3/4 at camp. Thats why I don't feel Wade is a combo guard. Even with Wade, IF he wanted to play the point, he could. He can handle and pass the ball just as well as many points out there.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-28-2009, 02:14 PM
Combo guards can be good or bad. The problem is the amount of players who can't defend both positions or can't pass or facilitate an offense.

There is no problem with Dwyane Wade, Delonte (they can defend both and play both effectively) etc. but with guys like Ben Gordon who are 2s in a PG's body you have issues. They aren't good defenders and they can't be PGs so they become liabilities. Height really does count. Versatility is one thing and being a tweener is another.

The problem is like you said when SG's are in PG bodies.

unwantedplayer
02-28-2009, 02:29 PM
Arena looks like a combo guard.

BranWingss
02-28-2009, 02:39 PM
Vince Carter! I see Vince taking the ball up alot,he leads the team in assits. This part in his carear hes a pass 1st type of player.

GCOOKIE7
02-28-2009, 03:12 PM
Lebron is a combo everything guard

THE MTL
02-28-2009, 03:19 PM
As the evolution of basketball continues, where big men get bigger and more athletic, the combo guards of the league are becoming less and less desireable. Is there a combo guard out there that is a legitimate star player? Remember the definition of a combo guard is someone who is too small for the shooting guard position, yet doesn't have the skills to play the point. Lets not confuse the "scoring" points to these combo guards. Tony Parker, Mike Bibby, and Gilbert Arenas are scoring point guards. Its not like a player like Iverson CAN'T play the point, because he has the skills and ballhandling ability to do so. He just chooses to score and still dishes out 6 assists per game. The guards in question are too many to list, but I'm going to give it a shot...

Eddie House, Leandhro Barbosa, Monta Ellis, Quincy Douby, Ben Gordon, Luther Head, Gab Pruitt, Ronald Murray, Daniel Gibson, Jason Terry, CJ Watson, Fred Jones, Eric Gordon, Smush Parker, Charlie Bell, Ramon Sessions, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Cuttino Mobley, Russell Westbrook, Louis Williams, Royal Ivey, Willie Green, Jerryd Bayless, Bobby Jackson, Rashad McCants, Marcus Banks, Antonio Daniels, Mike James, Juan Dixon, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher.....

The list can go on with the players that have disappeared out of the league like Dejuan Wager and AJ Guyton. In the end, most of these players are drafted in the latter half of the first round and all throughout the second round. There are guys that I think can make the transition like Louis Williams of the Sixers, who can handle the ball extremely well and can pass. The jury is still out on some of the young guys like Westbrook and Bayless, but Portland has already been rumored to be regretting the move and was trying to trade Bayless before the deadline. Ben Gordon wanted $10M a year but got no interest and had to return to Chicago for his $6M a year. He'll more than likely, not get $10M a year from anyone this Summer. So whats the big obession with Monta Ellis over at Golden State? The guy is 6'3, is quick and athletic. Half of the guys on that list above is 6'3, quick and athletic. What people seem to overlook is that Ellis IS 6'3, weak, plays horrible defense, can't pass the ball, can't go left, is a below average ball handler for his position. So why is he making $11M a year? Bad move on the Warriors and they'll be regretting it big time sooner than later.

I dont understand ur logic. A scoring point guard is one who chooses to score first. They shoot and penetrate, which technically is the SG's job to do anyway. Scoring point guard and Combo guard technically have the same job. And AI still gets more assists than all of those combo guards. Gilbert areanas barely gets enough assists for a small forward let alone a point guard.

SwaggaIke
02-28-2009, 06:11 PM
I've thought about D-Wade and even looked up his camp measurements where he measured 6'4 without shoes which basically makes him 6'5 in the NBA. Monta Ellis measured 6'1 3/4 at camp. Thats why I don't feel Wade is a combo guard. Even with Wade, IF he wanted to play the point, he could. He can handle and pass the ball just as well as many points out there.

Wade couldn't be a point guard because his turnover volume is too high. He's averaging at least 4 turnovers per game for his career to about 6 or 7 assists. Those are not point guard numbers. I'm not saying your height measurements are wrong, but i'd definitely like to see them for myself. No NBA player is the height they are listed as, most are an inch or 2 smaller. Wade benefits from having long arms and huge hands which allow him to play bigger than he actually is. He's still a combo guard IMO.

Nets fan 93
02-28-2009, 06:25 PM
Vince Carter! I see Vince taking the ball up alot,he leads the team in assits. This part in his carear hes a pass 1st type of player.
Devin leads the team in asts

VC: 4.8
DH: 6.6

Morgan
02-28-2009, 06:27 PM
As the evolution of basketball continues, where big men get bigger and more athletic, the combo guards of the league are becoming less and less desireable. Is there a combo guard out there that is a legitimate star player? Remember the definition of a combo guard is someone who is too small for the shooting guard position, yet doesn't have the skills to play the point. Lets not confuse the "scoring" points to these combo guards. Tony Parker, Mike Bibby, and Gilbert Arenas are scoring point guards. Its not like a player like Iverson CAN'T play the point, because he has the skills and ballhandling ability to do so. He just chooses to score and still dishes out 6 assists per game. The guards in question are too many to list, but I'm going to give it a shot...

Eddie House, Leandhro Barbosa, Monta Ellis, Quincy Douby, Ben Gordon, Luther Head, Gab Pruitt, Ronald Murray, Daniel Gibson, Jason Terry, CJ Watson, Fred Jones, Eric Gordon, Smush Parker, Charlie Bell, Ramon Sessions, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Cuttino Mobley, Russell Westbrook, Louis Williams, Royal Ivey, Willie Green, Jerryd Bayless, Bobby Jackson, Rashad McCants, Marcus Banks, Antonio Daniels, Mike James, Juan Dixon, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher.....

The list can go on with the players that have disappeared out of the league like Dejuan Wager and AJ Guyton. In the end, most of these players are drafted in the latter half of the first round and all throughout the second round. There are guys that I think can make the transition like Louis Williams of the Sixers, who can handle the ball extremely well and can pass. The jury is still out on some of the young guys like Westbrook and Bayless, but Portland has already been rumored to be regretting the move and was trying to trade Bayless before the deadline. Ben Gordon wanted $10M a year but got no interest and had to return to Chicago for his $6M a year. He'll more than likely, not get $10M a year from anyone this Summer. So whats the big obession with Monta Ellis over at Golden State? The guy is 6'3, is quick and athletic. Half of the guys on that list above is 6'3, quick and athletic. What people seem to overlook is that Ellis IS 6'3, weak, plays horrible defense, can't pass the ball, can't go left, is a below average ball handler for his position. So why is he making $11M a year? Bad move on the Warriors and they'll be regretting it big time sooner than later.



Big men definitely aren't getting bigger. There's isn't too many David Robinsons, Hakeem Olajuwons, Patrick Ewings, Shaquille O'Neals, and Alonzo Mournings in college or the NBA these days. The center position is more like power fowards these days.

rapswin98
02-28-2009, 06:54 PM
Vince Carter! I see Vince taking the ball up alot,he leads the team in assits. This part in his carear hes a pass 1st type of player.how is vc a combo guard, sometimes u see odom bringing up the ball but he aint a combo guard

philab
02-28-2009, 07:01 PM
D-wade is a combo guard. He's a SG with a PG's skill abilities. I think Westbrook will become one too.

That's not what a combo guard is and not what Wade is either.

A combo guard is usually a SG in a PG's body. As such, they are often forced to play PG despite the fact that they are not true PGs.

Wade doesn't quite have a PG's skills. I wouldn't quite call him a combo guard either -- he's at the edge of the definition if he is. Wade's just a bit of an undersized SG, but a really good one. He can handle the ball all right, but he's not a true PG by any means (too many TOs too, as SwaggaIke noted).

Delonte West is a combo guard, but he plays pretty solid defense so the Cavs do well with him at SG. Boobie Gibson is a combo guard and a pretty bad one too.

Mo Williams is more of a scoring PG to me.

Westbrook and Bayless need time before they're called combo guards. They might make the switch just fine. Westbrook plays great D too, so he should be okay wherever he plays.

Eddie House, Ben Gordon, Monta Ellis -- those are your classic combo guards.

philab
02-28-2009, 07:03 PM
Lebron is a combo everything guard

LeBron isn't a guard at all.

rapswin98
02-28-2009, 07:05 PM
LeBron isn't a guard at all.hes one of a kind:)

mrblisterdundee
02-28-2009, 07:28 PM
Combo guards are guards who play at shooting guards but also distribute the ball. There are plenty examples of combo guards that are legitimate star players.

Examples:

Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Leandro Barbosa, and many more

philab
02-28-2009, 07:38 PM
Combo guards are guards who play at shooting guards but also distribute the ball. There are plenty examples of combo guards that are legitimate star players.

Examples:

Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Leandro Barbosa, and many more

Yeah, that is what a combo guard is!

I got all caught up in the thread and the OP's definition and completely forgot what a combo guard really is.


So Wade is a combo guard -- my apologies to whomever above ^^.

This thread is just about tweener guards.

what54!?
02-28-2009, 07:41 PM
Yeah, that is what a combo guard is!

I got all caught up in the thread and the OP's definition and completely forgot what a combo guard really is.


So Wade is a combo guard -- my apologies to whomever above ^^.

This thread is just about tweener guards.lol it's ok I see the point you were making

Lakers09
02-28-2009, 07:44 PM
fisher is not a combo gaurd he is a pg its just that in the triangle offense the pg becomes a 3pt shooter

sasha would be a better example of a Laker thats a combo gaurd

FarOutIos
02-28-2009, 08:20 PM
List is full of OK players just to try and prove a point.

Mobley and McCants are 6-4, thats OK for a SG. As is Eric Gordan, who is becoming a great player.

And a few on that list, while they can shoot, are actually decent PGs. Just because they are not great PGs, doesn't make them a combo guard, just not very good as PGs.

The key is that a combo guard is basically a short SG who cannot dribble/pass good enough. Thus, a PG is still needed to keep the offense moving. Because you now have a short SG, this becomes a defensive liability. So the best way to circumvent this is to either have a great defensive Center to help block shots, or better yet, to have a TALL PG to play defense on the SG's.

D Roses Bulls
02-28-2009, 08:59 PM
Best combo guards is Dwayne Wade, but i think derrick rose is turning into one as well. i think he will be like dwayne wade in about three years

GCOOKIE7
03-01-2009, 12:52 AM
LeBron isn't a guard at all.

why not??? He gets more assists than you!

superkegger
03-01-2009, 01:41 AM
why not??? He gets more assists than you!

So because you get assists you're classified as a guard? Hmm. I guess Pau has been a guard for the last couple weeks then....

ntat
03-01-2009, 01:50 AM
As the evolution of basketball continues, where big men get bigger and more athletic, the combo guards of the league are becoming less and less desireable. Is there a combo guard out there that is a legitimate star player? Remember the definition of a combo guard is someone who is too small for the shooting guard position, yet doesn't have the skills to play the point. Lets not confuse the "scoring" points to these combo guards. Tony Parker, Mike Bibby, and Gilbert Arenas are scoring point guards. Its not like a player like Iverson CAN'T play the point, because he has the skills and ballhandling ability to do so. He just chooses to score and still dishes out 6 assists per game. The guards in question are too many to list, but I'm going to give it a shot...

Eddie House, Leandhro Barbosa, Monta Ellis, Quincy Douby, Ben Gordon, Luther Head, Gab Pruitt, Ronald Murray, Daniel Gibson, Jason Terry, CJ Watson, Fred Jones, Eric Gordon, Smush Parker, Charlie Bell, Ramon Sessions, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Cuttino Mobley, Russell Westbrook, Louis Williams, Royal Ivey, Willie Green, Jerryd Bayless, Bobby Jackson, Rashad McCants, Marcus Banks, Antonio Daniels, Mike James, Juan Dixon, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher.....

The list can go on with the players that have disappeared out of the league like Dejuan Wager and AJ Guyton. In the end, most of these players are drafted in the latter half of the first round and all throughout the second round. There are guys that I think can make the transition like Louis Williams of the Sixers, who can handle the ball extremely well and can pass. The jury is still out on some of the young guys like Westbrook and Bayless, but Portland has already been rumored to be regretting the move and was trying to trade Bayless before the deadline. Ben Gordon wanted $10M a year but got no interest and had to return to Chicago for his $6M a year. He'll more than likely, not get $10M a year from anyone this Summer. So whats the big obession with Monta Ellis over at Golden State? The guy is 6'3, is quick and athletic. Half of the guys on that list above is 6'3, quick and athletic. What people seem to overlook is that Ellis IS 6'3, weak, plays horrible defense, can't pass the ball, can't go left, is a below average ball handler for his position. So why is he making $11M a year? Bad move on the Warriors and they'll be regretting it big time sooner than later.ur list is WAY flawed. I saw at least 5 guys on there that r true PGs. in fact Fisher has played true pg For like 12 years. know ur stuff man.

ntat
03-01-2009, 01:54 AM
Vince Carter! I see Vince taking the ball up alot,he leads the team in assits. This part in his carear hes a pass 1st type of player.
no hes not.

ntat
03-01-2009, 01:56 AM
As the evolution of basketball continues, where big men get bigger and more athletic, the combo guards of the league are becoming less and less desireable. Is there a combo guard out there that is a legitimate star player? Remember the definition of a combo guard is someone who is too small for the shooting guard position, yet doesn't have the skills to play the point. Lets not confuse the "scoring" points to these combo guards. Tony Parker, Mike Bibby, and Gilbert Arenas are scoring point guards. Its not like a player like Iverson CAN'T play the point, because he has the skills and ballhandling ability to do so. He just chooses to score and still dishes out 6 assists per game. The guards in question are too many to list, but I'm going to give it a shot...

Eddie House, Leandhro Barbosa, Monta Ellis, Quincy Douby, Ben Gordon, Luther Head, Gab Pruitt, Ronald Murray, Daniel Gibson, Jason Terry, CJ Watson, Fred Jones, Eric Gordon, Smush Parker, Charlie Bell, Ramon Sessions, Randy Foye, Nate Robinson, Cuttino Mobley, Russell Westbrook, Louis Williams, Royal Ivey, Willie Green, Jerryd Bayless, Bobby Jackson, Rashad McCants, Marcus Banks, Antonio Daniels, Mike James, Juan Dixon, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher.....

The list can go on with the players that have disappeared out of the league like Dejuan Wager and AJ Guyton. In the end, most of these players are drafted in the latter half of the first round and all throughout the second round. There are guys that I think can make the transition like Louis Williams of the Sixers, who can handle the ball extremely well and can pass. The jury is still out on some of the young guys like Westbrook and Bayless, but Portland has already been rumored to be regretting the move and was trying to trade Bayless before the deadline. Ben Gordon wanted $10M a year but got no interest and had to return to Chicago for his $6M a year. He'll more than likely, not get $10M a year from anyone this Summer. So whats the big obession with Monta Ellis over at Golden State? The guy is 6'3, is quick and athletic. Half of the guys on that list above is 6'3, quick and athletic. What people seem to overlook is that Ellis IS 6'3, weak, plays horrible defense, can't pass the ball, can't go left, is a below average ball handler for his position. So why is he making $11M a year? Bad move on the Warriors and they'll be regretting it big time sooner than later.
he was never supposed to be their ball handler. Baron Davis was, then he screwed them over. again, KNOW UR STUFF.

BlondeBomber41
03-01-2009, 08:49 AM
I think some of you are a little confused on what a combo guard really is.
.
Like the guy said in the original post. Two small to be a SG, but not a pure PG either.

Obvious examples are Ben Gordon, Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa, Nate Robinson, Daniel Gibson, OJ Mayo, Monta Ellis, Sasha Vujacic, Louis Williams, Randy Foye, Mike James etc...

IMO players like Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Steve Francis (when he was good) Stephon Marbury and Gilbert Arenas are also combo guards, just with more talent and athleticism.

Dont confuse a player getting assists to mean he has PG skils. It can alot of the time just mean they dominate the ball alot on the offensive end.

GCOOKIE7
03-01-2009, 10:45 AM
So because you get assists you're classified as a guard? Hmm. I guess Pau has been a guard for the last couple weeks then....

Lebron can be whatever he wants to be.

WestCoastSportz
03-01-2009, 02:38 PM
Big men definitely aren't getting bigger. There's isn't too many David Robinsons, Hakeem Olajuwons, Patrick Ewings, Shaquille O'Neals, and Alonzo Mournings in college or the NBA these days. The center position is more like power fowards these days.

In the 80s, no one would of called Karl Malone who was 6'8, undersized for the power forward position. No one would of called Tim Hardaway or Kevin Johnson (6'0) undersized for the point guard position. The prototypical height for the PG now is 6'3. If you're not 7'0, then you're an undersized center. Thats the evolution I'm talking about.

WestCoastSportz
03-01-2009, 02:43 PM
he was never supposed to be their ball handler. Baron Davis was, then he screwed them over. again, KNOW UR STUFF.

You should KNOW YOUR stuff. Yes Baron Davis was the main ball handling guy and yes he screwed the Warriors up. But here what you're not getting. Baron Davis opted out on June 30. The Warrior's re-signed Monta Ellis on July 24th with Nellie saying that he was the future at the point guard position. You've just made yourself look stupid, showed a lack of basketball knowledge and deserve very little credibility on this forum.. THANKS.

montazingmvp
03-02-2009, 02:09 AM
In the 80s, no one would of called Karl Malone who was 6'8, undersized for the power forward position. No one would of called Tim Hardaway or Kevin Johnson (6'0) undersized for the point guard position. The prototypical height for the PG now is 6'3. If you're not 7'0, then you're an undersized center. Thats the evolution I'm talking about.

karl malone was 6ft9 255lbs. thats not small for a pf. nowadays that would be avg height, and big. he's the same exact size as carlos boozer. who says boozer is small...

kevin johnson was a point. he avg'd 10 ast for a few years. doing that put you in the category of a pg (or the best passing sg of all time, which he certainly isn't). he was 6'1" and weighed 190lbs. thats not abnormal at all in todays game.

tim hardaway was 6ft 180lbs. not unusual for todays game either. let me list a few...

aaron brooks, rafer alston, mike bibby, mike conley, tj ford, chris duhon, jameer nelson, tony parker, luke ridnour, rajon rondo, mo williams...not one of these player is taller than 6'2" or heavier than 190lbs...

i dont know where you got the idea that players are bigger now, but you are dead wrong

montazingmvp
03-02-2009, 02:38 AM
each teams starting center now and in the season of 1996...lets see if players really are smaller...

magic....shaq............ 7' .....300lbs....dwight howard...6'11" ....265lbs
knicks...ewing.......... 7' .....255lbs....jared jeffries..... 6'11" ...240lbs
heat.....mourning....... 6'10" .261lbs....j.o'neal............ 6'11" ...258lbs
wizards..muresan....... 7'7" ...303lbs...andray blatche ..6'11" ....248lbs
celtics...eric montross. 7' .....270lbs ..kendrick perkins .6'10" ...280lbs
nets .....shawn bradley.7'6"...275lbs...brooke lopez..... .7' ......260lbs
76ers....sharone wright.6'11"..260lbs..dalembert....... ...6'11"... 250lbs

and you said any center under 7' nowadays is undersized. dwight undersized? whatever you say dude

montazingmvp
03-02-2009, 03:06 AM
...

bulls.......luc longley........ 7'2" ....265lbs.....brad miller ........7' ........261lbs
pacers....rik smits ...........7'4" .....250lbs....jeff foster ........6'11" ....250lbs
cavs.......danny ferry .......6'10" ...230lbs....illguaskas .........7'3" .....260lbs
hawks.....andrew lang ......6'11" ...245lbs....zaza pachulia ....6'11" ....275lbs
pistons....otis thorpe ........6'9" ....225lbs....sheed wallace ...6'11" ....230lbs
hornets...matt geiger ........7' ......243lbs ...tyson chandler ...7'1" ....235lbs
bucks......benoit benjamin ..7' ......250lbs....andrew bogut .....7' ......260lbs
raptors....oliver miller ........6'9" ....280lbs....barnagni ............7' ......250lbs

Pat Thetic
03-02-2009, 03:12 AM
i dont know where you got the idea that players are bigger now, but you are dead wrong

Plain and simple, players are bigger.

The amount of 6'9", 6'10" Shooting Forwards in this league is growing every year. Donte Green and Anthony Randolph are two recent examples. You could also think about Lebron James, or hell Kevin Durant who is around 6'10" playing the 2.

Centers are bad examples to decide whether or not big men are getting shorter on average. Look at the forward spot and remember that the day of the 6'8" PF is dying. Thank Kevin Garnett.

George Mursean, Manute Bol, Shawn Bradley, Mark Eaton, Rik Smits, that type of player is, thankfully, a thing of the past (great shot blockers, but the game is way to open these days).

(and Hakeem was closer 6'10" but was always listed as 7', so he isn't a good example)

montazingmvp
03-02-2009, 03:25 AM
spurs........david robinson .......7'1" ....250lbs.....tim duncan ......6'11" ...260lbs
jazz..........greg ostertag ........7'2" ....285lbs.....mehmet okur ...6' 11" ...263lbs
rockets.....hakeem olajuwon ....7' ......255lbs.....yao ming .........7'6" .....310lbs
nuggets....dikembe mutombo ...7'2" ....260lbs.....Nene ..............6'11" ...250lbs
mavs........loren meyer ...........6'10" ..258lbs.....erick dampier ....6'11" ...265lbs
t'wolves....christian laettner ....6'11" ..235lbs.....al jefferson ......6'10" ...265lbs
grizzlies.....byrant reeves ........7' ......275lbs.....marc gasol .......7'1" ....265lbs

montazingmvp
03-02-2009, 03:43 AM
thunder...ervin johnson ......6'11" ....245lbs.....nenad krstic ......7' ........240lbs
lakers......vlade divac .........7'1" .....243lbs.....andrew bynum ...7' ........285lbs
blazers....arvydas sabonis ...7'3" .....279lbs.....greg oden .........7' ........285lbs
suns.......hot rod williams ....6'11" ....215lbs.....shaq ...............7'1" ......325lbs
kings......olden polynice ......6'11" ....220lbs.....spencer hawes ..7' ........245lbs
warriors ..rony seikaly .........6'11" ...230lbs.....andris biedrins ...6'11" .....240lbs
clippers...stanley robers .......7' ......280lbs.....marcus camby ...6'11" .....245lbs

montazingmvp
03-02-2009, 03:47 AM
Plain and simple, players are bigger.

The amount of 6'9", 6'10" Shooting Forwards in this league is growing every year. Donte Green and Anthony Randolph are two recent examples. You could also think about Lebron James, or hell Kevin Durant who is around 6'10" playing the 2.

Centers are bad examples to decide whether or not big men are getting shorter on average. Look at the forward spot and remember that the day of the 6'8" PF is dying. Thank Kevin Garnett.

George Mursean, Manute Bol, Shawn Bradley, Mark Eaton, Rik Smits, that type of player is, thankfully, a thing of the past (great shot blockers, but the game is way to open these days).

(and Hakeem was closer 6'10" but was always listed as 7', so he isn't a good example)

don't you have to have a shot to be considered a shooting forward. anthony randolph doesn't have a shot. anthony roberson was similar to him...players nowadays are no bigger then the were in the 90's. that is a myth. and my statistics are just a small sample of evidence

montazingmvp
03-02-2009, 03:49 AM
Plain and simple, players are bigger.

The amount of 6'9", 6'10" Shooting Forwards in this league is growing every year. Donte Green and Anthony Randolph are two recent examples. You could also think about Lebron James, or hell Kevin Durant who is around 6'10" playing the 2.

Centers are bad examples to decide whether or not big men are getting shorter on average. Look at the forward spot and remember that the day of the 6'8" PF is dying. Thank Kevin Garnett.

George Mursean, Manute Bol, Shawn Bradley, Mark Eaton, Rik Smits, that type of player is, thankfully, a thing of the past (great shot blockers, but the game is way to open these days).

(and Hakeem was closer 6'10" but was always listed as 7', so he isn't a good example)


there are several teams in the league that need a rik smits or muresan. those guys were great players

Pat Thetic
03-02-2009, 02:55 PM
don't you have to have a shot to be considered a shooting forward. anthony randolph doesn't have a shot. anthony roberson was similar to him...players nowadays are no bigger then the were in the 90's. that is a myth. and my statistics are just a small sample of evidence

Randolph might not have a jump shot, but at 205 lbs, he isn't a PF. Anthony Roberson was 6'2" wannabe three point shooter, so I don't know in what way they are similar.

I will give you this, the NBA no longer has a place for the big, clunky giant. So, if that is what you mean that the NBA is shorter, (what your "statistics" (which are actually just side-by-side comparisons) suggest) then you are right. If you want to look at all five players on the floor to determine how the NBA is changing, you will find that you are dead wrong.

The NBA is filled with 6'7", 6'8" SGs. You don't have a leg to stand on.

PS. George Mursean may have been a great human being, but Lebron James could box him out of the Earth.