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sp1derm00
02-26-2009, 05:33 PM
Looked up the PER of opposing players for some of the league's stars and came up with some interesting numbers.

PG:
Rose: 13.9
Westbrook: 15.3
Billups: 15.8
Rondo: 16.3
Calderon: 16.9
Chris Paul: 16.9
Deron Williams: 17.0
Nash: 17.7
Fisher: 17.9
Tony Parker: 18.0
Devon Harris: 18.0
Iverson(Piston): 18.5
Kidd: 20.7

Pretty amazing to me that Rose is at the top of the list by a fair margin even in his rookie season! The defense of CP3 and Deron is around the same level. What is amazing is that Nash's defense in terms of holding down his opponent's PER is better than Fisher, Parker, and Kidd's...


SG:
Ray Allen: 11.2
Johnson: 13.3
Kobe: 13.7
Ginobili: 13.8* (comes off the bench, plays a lot of minutes against opponent bench)
Ben Gordon: 14.3
Wade 15.3
Mayo: 16.1
VC: 17.6
Roy: 17.9

Ray Allen heads off the SG's... the low opponent PER is far better than Joe Johnson and Kobe's defense which are both excellent. Ginobili is very close to the top as well, but he plays a lot of minutes against bench players so his opponent PER numbers are a bit inflated. The most surprising thing is Ben Gordon's defense. He seems to be holding opposing SG's to a lower PER than Wade, Mayo, and Roy... and speaking of those three... isn't Wade supposed to be a nominee for a DPOY? Isn't Mayo supposed to be a good defender? And Roy, whom everyone likes because of his composure on the court... opposing SG's are on average, VERY close to his own PER.

SF:
AK47: 11.0
Iguodala: 11.8
Melo: 12.1
Artest: 12.3
Lebron: 13.5
Pierce: 13.6
Prince: 14.0
Granger: 14.7
Wallace: 14.9
Durant: 15.5
Butler: 18.1

AK47 and Iguodala have always been known for his defense, so there's no surprise there. However, MELO being a better defender than ARTEST this year?! Lebron and Pierce are where they're expected to be, very good defenders, both on very good defensive teams. Caron Butler dissapoints me.

PF:
Dirk: 13.7
Duncan: 14.0
Odom: 14.3* (Comes off the bench a lot also)
Garnett: 15.3
Bosh: 15.5
Scola: 15.5
Aldridge: 15.6
Amar'e: 15.9
West: 16.1
Gasol: 17.1

What amazes me most about this list is that Dirk holds opposing PF's to a lower PER than Duncan. Wow. Odom plays a lot of bench minutes, so his numbers are inflated.... and everything seems as it should be. Pau's opposing PF PER seems to be fairly accurate of his weak defense. I am however, very dissapointed in him. :mad:

C:
Big Z: 11.7
Bynum: 15.0
Chandler: 15.2
Nene: 15.2
Howard: 15.5
Yao: 15.7
Perkins: 15.8
Dampier: 15.8
O'neal: 16.7
Gasol: 16.8
Okafor: 18.7
Jefferson: 18.9

BIG Z!!!! 11.7?!?! Next closest being Bynum at 15.0.... a full 3.3 PER points BEHIND Big Z's. Great year for him. Dwight Howard's defense on opposing C's probably could be a lot better, however, he probably leaves his man wayyy more than any other C to get the BPG's than he has. Gasol's defense as a C is pretty much as bad as his defense as a PF.

The numbers are interesting to read and compare, but it should be noted that opposing player PER's don't always accurately present a player's defensive abilities. For example: Ray Allen was never known for his defensive capabilities, but after joining the Celtics, he seems to hold the best opposing position PER.... far ahead of Kobe, who is considered a better defender by most. Kobe however, plays for a worse defensive team than Allen does... the numbers are slightly skewed.

It would be interesting to compare these numbers to league average numbers by position... however, I don't know where to get these numbers.

cambovenzi
02-26-2009, 05:35 PM
eh, im not sure how much weight i would put into a stat like that.
bball is rarely a 1-on-1 matchup.
alot of the better perceived defenders except for like kidd seem to be near the top of the lists tho.

SteveNash
02-26-2009, 05:42 PM
Calderon, Carmelo, and Dirk being in the top 5 of their positions kind of negates these numbers.

Most interesting in Rose/Gordon. Rose has potential but is still a rookie making rookie mistakes, always thought Gordon was underrated as a defender, but no way is he top not even top 15 I'd say.

But I can't think of any explanation for why their numbers are so good right now.

J_B
02-26-2009, 05:52 PM
Calderon is suprising in my opinion

Cubs Win
02-26-2009, 05:56 PM
Rose being that far ahead really suprises me, because there are several times a game where I notice things he misses on defense. But with his combo of size/speed/strength he definitely has the potential to be the best defensive PG in the league someday. (and apparently now according to these numbers)

sp1derm00
02-26-2009, 05:56 PM
I don't think these numbers are negated by dirk, calderon, and melo being in the top 5 of their positions. Nor do i think Kidd being at the bottom negates these numbers.

The Mavs have gone from more of a run and gun team to a better defensive team now. I think this has a lot to do with Dirk. Dirk also is a different kind of PF... he is pretty agile for a 7 footer and probably wears down on opposing PF's by shooting over them and giving them a sense of helplessness. Definitely not the kind of PF they're used to defending.

Carmelo has stated many times that he has worked hard this year to become a better team player. He doesn't score as much as he used to, but he plays more hard nosed defense. It's reflected on his opponent PER.

As far as Kidd's PER being so high... Kidd is not the player he used to be. He still has great passing abilities, but he's lost a lot of quickness due to old age and is no longer the defender he used to be.

For the rest of the league, it's pretty obvious that these numbers, for the most part, reflect what the majority of coaches, media, fans say about player's defense. The better perceived defenders in the league are all at the top of the list.There are a few surprises, but that might either come from public misperception or just great team defense.

Cubs Win
02-26-2009, 06:02 PM
As far as Kidd's PER being so high... Kidd is not the player he used to be. He still has great passing abilities, but he's lost a lot of quickness due to old age and is no longer the defender he used to be.

Yeah, I think the newer rules on defense have really hurt him. A lot of the younger PGs can just blow right by him now because you can't even bump. With his older age, he's losing speed and thus can't keep people in front of him as well anymore.

Catfish1314
02-26-2009, 06:04 PM
PER isn't everything. I know I'd much rather have Tim Duncan guarding my opponent's best big than Dirk. Same with Artest and Anthony.

Interesting though.

sp1derm00
02-26-2009, 06:08 PM
From the 06-07 season:

Ray Allen's numbers are far worse than current season's at 15.3 opponent PER.

Kidd's surprisingly is 18.3... not too far from what it is now despite the team change.

In 06'-07' Wade's defense was publicly criticized by Pat Riley. His opponent PER was 19.8 that season.

Dirk's defense was a lot worse at 15.0.

Ben Gordon's defense in 06'-07' was a lot worse than it is currently... at 19.2. Playing with Rose seems to have energized his defense as well.

Melo's defense was at 17.3 which reflects his increased defensive effort.

Coonman21
02-26-2009, 06:09 PM
I dont put to much stock in PER. I watch every bulls game and you cant call Rose anything more than an average defender at best. He's young and will be good, but right now he gets it handed to him when playing defense. Just look at his last two games. TJ Ford and Devin Harris owned him. Great PG's, but he got owned. To be considered the best you have to slow down the best. He's not there yet. But offensively he's already top 10 point guard.

sp1derm00
02-26-2009, 06:23 PM
I dont put to much stock in PER. I watch every bulls game and you cant call Rose anything more than an average defender at best. He's young and will be good, but right now he gets it handed to him when playing defense. Just look at his last two games. TJ Ford and Devin Harris owned him. Great PG's, but he got owned. To be considered the best you have to slow down the best. He's not there yet. But offensively he's already top 10 point guard.

As a Laker fan, having Fish and Farmar guarding the other PG's in the game has really shown me that PG's in the NBA are impossible to stop. They are so much quicker than players in any other position... and with the current NBA rules, they can blow by ANYONE.

I've watched Rose play (one of my favorite players at this point) and he is worlds better than Fish or Farmar on defense. Being a good defender doesn't mean you're not going to get lit up. Look at Kobe lighting up Bowen or Artest.

Rose's combination of size and speed probably gives opposing PG's a lot more trouble to get by him than other PG's in the league.

ARMIN12NBA
02-26-2009, 06:24 PM
Take all these statistics with a grain of salt.

tonyd3b54
02-26-2009, 06:46 PM
u also gotta look at how these teams match their players with the other teams... like bigZ isnt guarding the other teams best post player every night.... and some one like pierce or kobe are always guarding the other teams best players... so i think that makes pierces per that much more impressive and kobes a little more understandable...

BALLER71
02-26-2009, 06:58 PM
Steals are overrated.. Chris Paul is not a good defender.

C_Mund
02-26-2009, 07:15 PM
Another shortcoming of this stat is that it can't account for defensive rotations. For example, watching the raptors is painful because their poor perimeter defense leads no TONS of switches and rotations. Half the time we have Kapono guarding somebody like Maxiel ten seconds into the shot clock, which would give Bosh's man a better PER although he's actually just beasted on JK.

alem0022
02-26-2009, 07:28 PM
I don't know if I can agree with any stat that has JKidd in the top 15 defensively. Whether due to newer rules or old age, he can't guard anyone in the NBA under the age of 30.

With regards to having defensive stats, there still isn't a definitive way to rank the defensive impact of a player. I feel like word of mouth is still the best way to rank the best defender. People who watch Battier more than 4 times a year understand how big of an asset he is. Watching Posey control LeBron last year was unbelievable; I've been watching Bowen dominate [legally or illegally] opposing players for years now and I would rather take a true fan's word when it comes to a player's defensive ability. That is, until I hear people telling me that Amar'e is a good defender. He's not.

sp1derm00
02-26-2009, 07:33 PM
I don't know if I can agree with any stat that has JKidd in the top 15 defensively. Whether due to newer rules or old age, he can't guard anyone in the NBA under the age of 30.

With regards to having defensive stats, there still isn't a definitive way to rank the defensive impact of a player. I feel like word of mouth is still the best way to rank the best defender. People who watch Battier more than 4 times a year understand how big of an asset he is. Watching Posey control LeBron last year was unbelievable; I've been watching Bowen dominate [legally or illegally] opposing players for years now and I would rather take a true fan's word when it comes to a player's defensive ability. That is, until I hear people telling me that Amar'e is a good defender. He's not.

BTW, these stats aren't the top 15....

I just picked random stars and found out their opponent PER to get an idea of how good a defender they are. I'm sure Kidd with an opponent PER that high is pretty low on the list in terms of defense.

Chronz
02-26-2009, 09:09 PM
Players crossmatch and you have to take into account the effectiveness of the player hes gaurding. Defending Bruce Bowen is alot easier than defending Manu the guy defending Bowen is going to have the lower PER by default, you have to know the teams defensive gameplan, also sometimes the Counterpart-PER of a player is due to a halo effect of a great help defender, like KG in his prime, his counterpart PER was pretty low but him being in the game lowered the PER of everyone else on the floor.

I look into the numbers, before giving my input but just wanted to clarify a few things.

alem0022
02-26-2009, 09:10 PM
In that case, I guess that PER against Kidd makes a lot of sense. Apologies all around; I assumed it was a "top ..." list.

Although I still think word of mouth is the best way to evaluate a defender.