PDA

View Full Version : For the 3rd year in a row, Kobe leads all players in scoring



Chronz
02-21-2009, 10:34 PM
VS GOOD TEAMS

Probably longer than that but Im only going by what I can remember 82games posting.

This years splits vs Good/Average/Bad teams:
http://www.82games.com/0809/COM1S11.HTM

Players who rise to the challenge when facing the best teams:
Kobe: 28.5PPG on .479FG% (.431 3PT%)
Pierce: 21.3PPG on .441FG% (.344 3PT%)
Durant: 26.1PPG on .492FG% (.479 3PT%)
KG: 16.4PPG on .545FG%
Al Jefferson: 25.6PPG on .502FG%
Iverson: 19.0PPG on .437FG%
JR Smith: 15.1PPG on .449FG% (.427 3PT%)
Grant Hill: 12.3PPG on .569FG%

Star Players who produce less PTS against the best:
Dwight: 17.0PPG on .494FG%
Vince Carter: 17.3PPG on .417FG% (.344 3PT%)
Joe Johnson: 18.9PPG on .426FG% (.262 3PT%)
Derrick Rose: 15.3PPG on .432FG%
LeBron: 27.2PPG on .466FG% (.236 3PT%)
Chauncey 15.9PPG on .395FG% (.334 3PT%)
Melo : 18.7PPG on .424FG% (.486 3PT%)
Artest: 14.9PPG on .360FG% (.394 3PT%)
Shaq: 15.4PPG on .547FG%
Bosh: 19.8PPG on .450FG%

Star Players who go NUTS on BAD TEAMS
Brandon Roy: 25.5PPG on .529FG% (.489 3PT%)
Wade: 30.0PPG on .488FG% (8.3AST)
Ray Allen: 18.1PPG on .534FG% (.461 3PT%)
LeBron: 27.8PPG on .533FG% (.338 3PT%)
Melo: 25.7PPG on .467FG% (.349 3PT%)
Granger: 27.4PPG on .442FG% (.366 3PT%)
Pau Gasol: 20.4PPG on .577FG% (10+Boards)
Dwight: 23.1PPG on .597FG%
Shaq: 18.3PPG on .626FG%
Bosh: 25.3PPG on .502FG%

Theres more but those were the ones who caught my eye, bigmen usually dominate the really crap teams the most.

I found it interesting that Dirk plays the same against everyone, of course PTS arent the sole measure of how well a player performs against the best, LeBron raises every other facet of his game against better competition, but struggles to get going himself offensively though keep in mind its all relative Bron is still awesome against the best, also these stats are prone to random variances due to the smallish sample size and how a player plays in the playoffs is much more telling of a players ability to step it up but I just wanted to throw these #'s out there.....

madiaz3
02-21-2009, 10:38 PM
The discrepancy between #1 and #2 is :speechless:

what54!?
02-21-2009, 10:38 PM
well kobe is still the best player in the leauge. That didn't change this year

G-Funk
02-21-2009, 10:40 PM
Kobe is still the best in the world

lakers4sho
02-21-2009, 10:43 PM
Kobe excels and proves that he's the best against the best teams, while LeBron and a few others "struggle" against the good teams and they "go nuts" against lesser competition.

Interesting stat.

Duncan = Donkey
02-21-2009, 10:46 PM
umm ok

marlinsfan24
02-21-2009, 10:56 PM
Wade beasts out vs every team!

Chronz
02-21-2009, 10:58 PM
Wade beasts out vs every team!

Agreed, especially the really bad ones

Kenny
02-21-2009, 10:59 PM
Kobe did great int eh finals last year didnt he.. all this is nonsense..

marlinsfan24
02-21-2009, 10:59 PM
Agreed, especially the really bad ones

27 vs good teams
27 vs avg teams
30 vs the bad teams

of course his numbers will be higher vs worse teams.

Chronz
02-21-2009, 11:01 PM
27 vs good teams
27 vs avg teams
30 vs the bad teams

of course his numbers will be higher vs worse teams.
Of course? You speak as if this holds true for every player in the league, that #24 guy down in LA rings a bell right about now.

But yes Wade is great against everyone stop being so defensive.

marlinsfan24
02-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Of course? You speak as if this holds true for every player in the league, that #24 guy down in LA doesnt.

Look at Kobe's supporting cast and look at Wade's. Against worse teams, Kobe has less to do, against lesser teams, Wade still has the same workload, but it's an easier task.

And not being defensive. I love Kobe and Wade both

Chronz
02-21-2009, 11:07 PM
Look at Kobe's supporting cast and look at Wade's. Against worse teams, Kobe has less to do, against lesser teams, Wade still has the same workload, but it's an easier task.
So your saying Wade has to do more for his team to win against the garbage teams? If your blaming the supporting cast then how do you explain Al Jefferson, he plays better against better competition and he does so with an even worse supporting cast than Wade.

And why does Kobes supporting cast do less against the better teams? Heres why, against the bad teams Kobe lets his teammates shine, he puts them in a position to succeed, but when they play the best teams he knows he has to be more agressive, also that supporting cast theory is a weak excuse, it only implies Wade is limited by who he has around him. We could look up Kobes numbers the years he had nobody but Im sure they hold true just the same.

marlinsfan24
02-21-2009, 11:09 PM
So your saying Wade has to do more for his team to win against the garbage teams? If your blaming the supporting cast then how do you explain Al Jefferson, he plays better against better competition and he does so with an even worse supporting cast than Wade.

And why does Kobes supporting cast do less against the better teams?

Idk why. I honestly don't care. I just enjoy watching Kobe and Wade both play. I expect Wade to play great vs the bad and good teams both. And he does. So does Kobe, Kobe's the best player in the league by far, no question about that

Chronz
02-21-2009, 11:14 PM
Idk why. I honestly don't care. I just enjoy watching Kobe and Wade both play. I expect Wade to play great vs the bad and good teams both. And he does. So does Kobe, Kobe's the best player in the league by far, no question about that
Thats the difference between you and I

Yes Wade dominates regardless, he just happens to play his best against the garbage teams while Kobe steps his game up against the better teams. Atleast as far as the regular season is concerned. We'll see how both perform in the playoffs when it matters most.

Though you could imply Kobe doesnt try his hardest against the lesser teams and that is abit of a fault. I just dont like people making excuses in either event. Take it for what it is.

kswissdaf
02-21-2009, 11:14 PM
What do they consider a good team?

SJSHARKIES
02-21-2009, 11:18 PM
Whether Kobe leads the league in scoring or not, doesn't really matter. The fact is he is the BEST player in the league, he can take over a game at any point he wants.

KB24PG16
02-21-2009, 11:22 PM
its funny because u guys are admitting that kobe is the best and in a another thread rate the top 15 players is durant among them u guys all put lebron at one

camador22
02-21-2009, 11:27 PM
Some people haven't opened the link these are the real stats.

Kobe 28.5pts, 5.1asts, 6.1rebs
Wade 27.7pts, 6.9asts, 5.5rebs
Lebron 27.2pts, 8.5asts, 8.7rebs

These stats prove that Lebron plays the best against the best teams by a slight edge. Wade and Kobe are almost identical in stats

Chronz
02-21-2009, 11:28 PM
What do they consider a good team?

Im guessing the top 10 in each tier record wise

Also not all of the top teams are great defensively so its not like these stats mean any 1 player sucks or doesnt, they are just stats. The entire body of work is what matters most, especially in the playoffs.

Chronz
02-21-2009, 11:31 PM
Some people haven't opened the link these are the real stats.

Kobe 28.5pts, 5.1asts, 6.1rebs
Wade 27.7pts, 6.9asts, 5.5rebs
Lebron 27.2pts, 8.5asts, 8.7rebs

These stats prove that Lebron plays the best against the best teams by a slight edge. Wade and Kobe are almost identical in stats

I didnt even bother checking, I was just responding to the excuses. Very good point, like I said in the beginning, PTS arent the sole measure. But for an indepth statistical analysis we would need to know the pace of the game both teams played at, Wade and Bron both play on slow paced teams so 25PTS on their team is more valuable than 25 on the Lakers, though I have a feeling the pace is pretty consistent with the rest of the other games, these are just fun glances, not full blown measures. Nobody should take offense to these stats, unless your player is really dogging it out against the best, like for instance Im abit worried about Chauncey's performance, and Vince has really sucked against the good teams.

Teeboy1487
02-21-2009, 11:39 PM
It's too bad that kobe can't play against himself on another team against the lakers. I wonder what he would do.:D However, wade averaged 31 points against the lakers in two games this year. A matter of fact, he kills us every year.

dwiduck
02-21-2009, 11:40 PM
VS GOOD TEAMS

Probably longer than that but Im only going by what I can remember 82games posting.

This years splits vs Good/Average/Bad teams:
http://www.82games.com/0809/COM1S11.HTM

Players who rise to the challenge when facing the best teams:
Kobe: 28.5PPG on .479FG% (.431 3PT%)
Pierce: 21.3PPG on .441FG% (.344 3PT%)
Durant: 26.1PPG on .492FG% (.479 3PT%)
KG: 16.4PPG on .545FG%
Al Jefferson: 25.6PPG on .502FG%
Iverson: 19.0PPG on .437FG%
JR Smith: 15.1PPG on .449FG% (.427 3PT%)
Grant Hill: 12.3PPG on .569FG%

Star Players who produce less PTS against the best:
Dwight: 17.0PPG on .494FG%
Vince Carter: 17.3PPG on .417FG% (.344 3PT%)
Joe Johnson: 18.9PPG on .426FG% (.262 3PT%)
Derrick Rose: 15.3PPG on .432FG%
LeBron: 27.2PPG on .466FG% (.236 3PT%)
Chauncey 15.9PPG on .395FG% (.334 3PT%)
Melo : 18.7PPG on .424FG% (.486 3PT%)
Artest: 14.9PPG on .360FG% (.394 3PT%)
Shaq: 15.4PPG on .547FG%
Bosh: 19.8PPG on .450FG%

Star Players who go NUTS on BAD TEAMS
Brandon Roy: 25.5PPG on .529FG% (.489 3PT%)
Wade: 30.0PPG on .488FG% (8.3AST)
Ray Allen: 18.1PPG on .534FG% (.461 3PT%)
LeBron: 27.8PPG on .533FG% (.338 3PT%)
Melo: 25.7PPG on .467FG% (.349 3PT%)
Granger: 27.4PPG on .442FG% (.366 3PT%)
Pau Gasol: 20.4PPG on .577FG% (10+Boards)
Dwight: 23.1PPG on .597FG%
Shaq: 18.3PPG on .626FG%
Bosh: 25.3PPG on .502FG%

Theres more but those were the ones who caught my eye, bigmen usually dominate the really crap teams the most.

I found it interesting that Dirk plays the same against everyone, of course PTS arent the sole measure of how well a player performs against the best, LeBron raises every other facet of his game against better competition, but struggles to get going himself offensively though keep in mind its all relative Bron is still awesome against the best, also these stats are prone to random variances due to the smallish sample size and how a player plays in the playoffs is much more telling of a players ability to step it up but I just wanted to throw these #'s out there.....

Thats an impressive stat, but it's not like LeBron really "struggles" against the good teams, the stats look pretty similar and like you said he steps it up in other facets. I'm not Kobe fan but this is impressive.

Draco
02-21-2009, 11:42 PM
The provided link organizes the data differently

NBA Player vs. GOOD Team Stats

Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
LAL Bryant 19 716 108 +6 22.2 .479 3.4 .431 6.9 83% 28.5 34% 6.1 5.1 2.9 0.5 1.1
MIA Wade 17 661 -57 -3 22.3 .472 3.2 .259 7.9 73% 27.7 26% 5.5 6.9 3.5 0.9 2.5
CLE James 13 513 101 +8 22.9 .466 4.2 .236 6.8 69% 27.2 31% 8.7 8.5 3.7 0.8 2.1

Great.. Kobe leads the league in scoring against Good teams by about a point more than Lebron or Wade (who's shots are less often off assists). Incidentally, Lebron collects more rebounds and averages more assists...

_Sn1P3r_
02-21-2009, 11:46 PM
Interesting stats, thanks for that. And I did notice that Bosh usually scores big against bad teams but against a Boston or something, he usually doesn't score that much.

Jaji
02-22-2009, 12:00 AM
James and Wade are in the top 3 for each category... for whatever its worth. It's a pretty dumb stat though to be honest. Who determines which teams are good, average, and bad? Is it good, average, and bad defenses? Some teams match up better against others. A lot of factors go into it which is why this is a made-up stat that wouldn't prove anything one way or the other if it wanted to.

Draco
02-22-2009, 12:03 AM
The discrepancy between #1 and #2 is :speechless:

No, there isn't.. There's a 1 point discrepancy between #1, and #2. And other variables to factor in.. such as what percentage of shots were assisted.

The OP hand picked a group of players... the complete list is located via the provided link.

Draco
02-22-2009, 12:05 AM
James and Wade are in the top 3 for each category... for whatever its worth. It's a pretty dumb stat though to be honest. Who determines which teams are good, average, and bad? Is it good, average, and bad defenses? Some teams match up better against others. A lot of factors go into it which is why this is a made-up stat that wouldn't prove anything one way or the other if it wanted to.

Agreed.

hotdogbun
02-22-2009, 12:09 AM
whats up with the "wade and lebron have more assists?" if you really know the triangle offense you wouldnt say that. put lebron and wade in the triangle and they wouldnt average that many assists. and lebron and wade sometimes play point guard for their team.

lakers4sho
02-22-2009, 12:13 AM
Some people haven't opened the link these are the real stats.

Kobe 28.5pts, 5.1asts, 6.1rebs
Wade 27.7pts, 6.9asts, 5.5rebs
Lebron 27.2pts, 8.5asts, 8.7rebs

These stats prove that Lebron plays the best against the best teams by a slight edge. Wade and Kobe are almost identical in stats


The provided link organizes the data differently

NBA Player vs. GOOD Team Stats

Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
LAL Bryant 19 716 108 +6 22.2 .479 3.4 .431 6.9 83% 28.5 34% 6.1 5.1 2.9 0.5 1.1
MIA Wade 17 661 -57 -3 22.3 .472 3.2 .259 7.9 73% 27.7 26% 5.5 6.9 3.5 0.9 2.5
CLE James 13 513 101 +8 22.9 .466 4.2 .236 6.8 69% 27.2 31% 8.7 8.5 3.7 0.8 2.1

Great.. Kobe leads the league in scoring against Good teams by about a point more than Lebron or Wade (who's shots are less often off assists). Incidentally, Lebron collects more rebounds and averages more assists...

The stats prove that LeBron and Wade doesn't play in a controlled offense and doesn't have 3 rebounding machines on their respective teams.

nd4T.O.
02-22-2009, 12:18 AM
who cares i still want kobe over lebron and wade and if its a game i got to win give me kobe then dwade

yankeesown69
02-22-2009, 12:19 AM
Lebrons difference is .6 ppg lol not much there

Chronz
02-22-2009, 12:27 AM
Lebrons difference is .6 ppg lol not much there

The difference in FG% is pretty staggering, and it makes sense when you watch how good teams play him.

Chronz
02-22-2009, 12:29 AM
The stats prove that LeBron and Wade doesn't play in a controlled offense and doesn't have 3 rebounding machines on their respective teams.

Bron plays with Big Z and Ben Wallace and Anderson V. does he not? Wade plays in a structured offense, I highly doubt Kobe would thrive in the same offense, can we please stop with the excuses.

Chronz
02-22-2009, 12:30 AM
whats up with the "wade and lebron have more assists?" if you really know the triangle offense you wouldnt say that. put lebron and wade in the triangle and they wouldnt average that many assists. and lebron and wade sometimes play point guard for their team.

Put Wade and Bron in the triangle and the triangle changes abit, whos to say they wouldnt be more efficient?

Chronz
02-22-2009, 12:33 AM
James and Wade are in the top 3 for each category... for whatever its worth. It's a pretty dumb stat though to be honest. Who determines which teams are good, average, and bad? Is it good, average, and bad defenses? Some teams match up better against others. A lot of factors go into it which is why this is a made-up stat that wouldn't prove anything one way or the other if it wanted to.

Its determined by how good the teams record is I would assume, but yes rating them by teams defense would make much more sense. The teams matching up against others is easy, certain teams are better at defending certain positions, it holds true for everyone. The difference is negligible, these stats arent all-telling but they arent meaningless. Unless you think its a coincidence that just about every bigman has trouble dominating compared to how easy it is to dominate the bad teams. And that the good teams can make LeBron take more jumpshots compared to the bad ones who let him get in the paint, thus reducing his overall effectiveness, considering only good teams make the playoffs it does make sense of the fact that Brons playoff performances against those very same teams results in diminishing returns.

I agree it doesnt prove anything, but it should play a part.

lakers4sho
02-22-2009, 12:41 AM
Bron plays with Big Z and Ben Wallace and Anderson V. does he not? Wade plays in a structured offense, I highly doubt Kobe would thrive in the same offense, can we please stop with the excuses.

And how many of them average at least 8 boards a game? Exactly.


Put Wade and Bron in the triangle and the triangle changes abit, whos to say they wouldnt be more efficient?

I wouldn't say they would be "less" efficient, but they wouldn't average that many rebounds and assists had they switched places with Kobe.

Some people are seriously underrating the effects of a P & R offense [ in the case of LeBron, I'm not sure what system Miami runs ]. In contrast to what you said, Kobe would not only thrive, but flourish in systems in which he is in control most of the time, mainly because he is effective from everywhere. He can pick the defense apart because they won't know how Kobe will try to get his points. On the other hand, everyone pretty much knows that LeBron and Wade will primarily seek to attack the rim.

Jaji
02-22-2009, 12:44 AM
Its determined by how good the teams record is I would assume, but yes rating them by teams defense would make much more sense. The teams matching up against others is easy, certain teams are better at defending certain positions, it holds true for everyone. The difference is negligible, these stats arent all-telling but they arent meaningless. Unless you think its a coincidence that just about every bigman has trouble dominating compared to how easy it is to dominate the bad teams. And that the good teams can make LeBron take more jumpshots compared to the bad ones who let him get in the paint, thus reducing his overall effectiveness, considering only good teams make the playoffs it does make sense of the fact that Brons playoff performances against those very same teams results in diminishing returns.

I agree it doesnt prove anything, but it should play a part.

Even it was important, LeBron's #s are still more impressive. Sure Kobe averages 1.3 more ppg according to the list, but LeBron averages 2.6 more rebounds and 3.4 more assists (which can be translated as at least 6.8 more points) per game. LeBron also averages 1 more steal per game.

So even if this list had any value, LeBron would still hold more weight.

Chronz
02-22-2009, 12:48 AM
And how many of them average at least 8 boards a game? Exactly.
Why would that matter? Rebounds per game is dependent on how many missed shots are available to rebound.



I wouldn't say they would be "less" efficient, but they wouldn't average that many rebounds and assists had they switched places with Kobe.

Then whats the point, efficiency is what wins games, if these guys were more efficient then their stats would be even greater.


Some people are seriously underrating the effects of a P & R offense [ in the case of LeBron, I'm not sure what system Miami runs ]. In contrast to what you said, Kobe would not only thrive, but flourish in systems in which he is in control most of the time, mainly because he is effective from everywhere. He can pick the defense apart because they won't know how Kobe will try to get his points. On the other hand, everyone pretty much knows that LeBron and Wade will primarily seek to attack the rim.

I highly doubt that, he doesnt have the ability to go full out every game the way Bron and Wade do. Kobe has been in this system before and has struggled, the moment he went back to the triangle he was back to his efficient self. Dont make excuses, you underrate how difficult it is to control every possession for your team. Kobe plays in a system beneficial to his strengths, as does Bron, thats all that matters.

Chronz
02-22-2009, 12:51 AM
Even it was important, LeBron's #s are still more impressive. Sure Kobe averages 1.3 more ppg according to the list, but LeBron averages 2.6 more rebounds and 3.4 more assists (which can be translated as at least 6.8 more points) per game. LeBron also averages 1 more steal per game.

So even if this list had any value, LeBron would still hold more weight.
Probably, hard to say with how little information they give us, but I wouldnt doubt it, Bron has been spectacular in the regular season. When I watch Kobe I sometimes get the feeling he coasts against bad teams.

Knowledge
02-22-2009, 01:13 AM
VS GOOD TEAMS

Probably longer than that but Im only going by what I can remember 82games posting.

This years splits vs Good/Average/Bad teams:
http://www.82games.com/0809/COM1S11.HTM

Players who rise to the challenge when facing the best teams:
Kobe: 28.5PPG on .479FG% (.431 3PT%)
Pierce: 21.3PPG on .441FG% (.344 3PT%)
Durant: 26.1PPG on .492FG% (.479 3PT%)
KG: 16.4PPG on .545FG%
Al Jefferson: 25.6PPG on .502FG%
Iverson: 19.0PPG on .437FG%
JR Smith: 15.1PPG on .449FG% (.427 3PT%)
Grant Hill: 12.3PPG on .569FG%

Star Players who produce less PTS against the best:
Dwight: 17.0PPG on .494FG%
Vince Carter: 17.3PPG on .417FG% (.344 3PT%)
Joe Johnson: 18.9PPG on .426FG% (.262 3PT%)
Derrick Rose: 15.3PPG on .432FG%
LeBron: 27.2PPG on .466FG% (.236 3PT%)
Chauncey 15.9PPG on .395FG% (.334 3PT%)
Melo : 18.7PPG on .424FG% (.486 3PT%)
Artest: 14.9PPG on .360FG% (.394 3PT%)
Shaq: 15.4PPG on .547FG%
Bosh: 19.8PPG on .450FG%

Star Players who go NUTS on BAD TEAMS
Brandon Roy: 25.5PPG on .529FG% (.489 3PT%)
Wade: 30.0PPG on .488FG% (8.3AST)
Ray Allen: 18.1PPG on .534FG% (.461 3PT%)
LeBron: 27.8PPG on .533FG% (.338 3PT%)
Melo: 25.7PPG on .467FG% (.349 3PT%)
Granger: 27.4PPG on .442FG% (.366 3PT%)
Pau Gasol: 20.4PPG on .577FG% (10+Boards)
Dwight: 23.1PPG on .597FG%
Shaq: 18.3PPG on .626FG%
Bosh: 25.3PPG on .502FG%

Theres more but those were the ones who caught my eye, bigmen usually dominate the really crap teams the most.

I found it interesting that Dirk plays the same against everyone, of course PTS arent the sole measure of how well a player performs against the best, LeBron raises every other facet of his game against better competition, but struggles to get going himself offensively though keep in mind its all relative Bron is still awesome against the best, also these stats are prone to random variances due to the smallish sample size and how a player plays in the playoffs is much more telling of a players ability to step it up but I just wanted to throw these #'s out there.....

Only thing that counts. You can make your name and legacy in the playoffs. Nobody will care that Kobe plays well against everybody if his team is ousted in the playoffs (not saying they will be). Wade's final performance is still talked about (sorry mavs fans :( ).

edit: there is a reason Billups is called "Mr Big shot", trust me as a Sixers fan I have a lot of first hand experience of seeing break a team in the final minutes/seconds.

ARMIN12NBA
02-22-2009, 01:18 AM
I have been saying this for years. The best player should play his best against the best and Bryant does exactly that. His FG% raises as well as his 3pt.%. He becomes more efficient and even distributes more. Bryant doesn't pad his stats against the bottom-feeders unlike other star players.

Knowledge
02-22-2009, 01:22 AM
I have been saying this for years. The best player should play his best against the best and Bryant does exactly that. His FG% raises as well as his 3pt.%. He becomes more efficient and even distributes more. Bryant doesn't pad his stats against the bottom-feeders unlike other star players.

He has no weakness, unlike all of his counter parts. He can attack the rim and shoot anywhere on the court. So no matter how people defend him he is bound to get his.

still1ballin
02-22-2009, 01:35 AM
Interesting stat, shows you who is still the best player in the world is.

SJSHARKIES
02-22-2009, 02:56 AM
people can make a legit argument about who is better Kobe or Lebron. Me personally give me Kobe.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 03:52 AM
[
QUOTE=Chronz;8464952]Why would that matter? Rebounds per game is dependent on how many missed shots are available to rebound.



Then whats the point, efficiency is what wins games, if these guys were more efficient then their stats would be even greater.


I highly doubt that, he doesnt have the ability to go full out every game the way Bron and Wade do. Kobe has been in this system before and has struggled, the moment he went back to the triangle he was back to his efficient self. Dont make excuses, you underrate how difficult it is to control every possession for your team. Kobe plays in a system beneficial to his strengths, as does Bron, thats all that matters.[/QUOTE]



I dont think you can make this assumption that Kobe could not operate in that type of system off the little time he spent playing in it. He only played in this type of system for 43 games out of his whole career. It was the first 43 games of a season, with a new coach, and a entirely different team from the previous year. I'm pretty sure you realize that a new coaches system does not really go into full effect until the second half of the season. Kobe never got that chance because Rudy T retired. Kobe was not efficient. But playing in that style of offense did have a direct impact on his assist numbers. He was averaging over 7 assist a game before they switched back to the triangle. Efficiency probably would have come with time and familiarity Players need time to adjust to a whole new system. Ask Steve Nash and Amare about that.

Now I cant say for sure, but I'm pretty sure Lebron would not work in the triangle. And he would definitely not have been as effective playing with Shaq, or Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum clogging up the paint. Kobe works because he can spread the floor. He does not need to be within 5 feet of the rim to be effective. You know the triangle puts a big man in the post and uses the post man to initiate the offense. If Lebron cant put his head down and get to the rim, we all have seen he becomes very inefficient. His shooting % of the last two years in the playoffs of 41% shows that. Now picture that throughout the whole season with big men not being able to step out and allow Lebron to drive to an open area near the rim. Lebrons shooting% goes drastically down as well as his assist numbers. As well as his rebound numbers because he would not be near the rim after he kicked it out to his teammates as much anymore. He would be forced to play out on the perimeter as opposed to always away from the rim like he is accustomed to

D Wade is a different story. I think he would be very effective in this offense. He does not shoot the 3 ball that well but does have much more range than Lebron.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 04:04 AM
The provided link organizes the data differently

NBA Player vs. GOOD Team Stats

Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
LAL Bryant 19 716 108 +6 22.2 .479 3.4 .431 6.9 83% 28.5 34% 6.1 5.1 2.9 0.5 1.1
MIA Wade 17 661 -57 -3 22.3 .472 3.2 .259 7.9 73% 27.7 26% 5.5 6.9 3.5 0.9 2.5
CLE James 13 513 101 +8 22.9 .466 4.2 .236 6.8 69% 27.2 31% 8.7 8.5 3.7 0.8 2.1

Great.. Kobe leads the league in scoring against Good teams by about a point more than Lebron or Wade (who's shots are less often off assists). Incidentally, Lebron collects more rebounds and averages more assists...

You also forgot to mention that Kobe averages 1.5 less turnovers than Wade and Lebron vs the better teams. Isn't that pretty important?

Teeboy1487
02-22-2009, 04:14 AM
You also forgot to mention that Kobe averages 1.5 less turnovers than Wade and Lebron vs the better teams. Isn't that pretty important?
Yep, that is important. Everyone here cares about rebounds and assists so much, you got to include turnovers too.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 04:27 AM
How the hell is Wade's +/- -57 against good teams? I thought his bench was awful? Looks like their team plays better without Wade vs good teams.

And how does an athletic freak like Lebron shoot 1 more three point shot than Kobe or Wade? We all know he cant hit them. Evidenced by him shooting them at a 23% clip. Why doesn't he just bulldoze his way to the rim like always?

ARMIN12NBA
02-22-2009, 04:44 AM
How the hell is Wade's +/- -57 against good teams? I thought his bench was awful? Looks like their team plays better without Wade vs good teams.

And how does an athletic freak like Lebron shoot 1 more three point shot than Kobe or Wade? We all know he cant hit them. Evidenced by him shooting them at a 23% clip. Why doesn't he just bulldoze his way to the rim like always?

I knows it's a rhetorical question as you have answered it in previous posts, but I shall reiterate. He can't bulldoze towards the rim because good defensive teams (good teams in general) pack/clog the paint, which causes Lebron to become inefficient. He is forced to take outside shots, which is obviously not his forte. Because of this, he has largely inefficient games against the "true" top dogs such as the Lakers, Magic, and Celtics (although he did have one great game against the Celtcs).

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 04:58 AM
I have been saying this for years. The best player should play his best against the best and Bryant does exactly that. His FG% raises as well as his 3pt.%. He becomes more efficient and even distributes more. Bryant doesn't pad his stats against the bottom-feeders unlike other star players.

:clap: Well said, it's clear that Kobe's numbers are considerably better when he faces the best teams in the NBA....

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 05:01 AM
I knows it's a rhetorical question as you have answered it in previous posts, but I shall reiterate. He can't bulldoze towards the rim because good defensive teams (good teams in general) pack/clog the paint, which causes Lebron to become inefficient. He is forced to take outside shots, which is obviously not his forte. Because of this, he has largely inefficient games against the "true" top dogs such as the Lakers, Magic, and Celtics (although he did have one great game against the Celtcs).

I concur and in order for him to beat those teams (Boston, LA) in a 7 game series and go to the next level, he's going to have to improve his ability to knock down a "consistent" jumper. His footwork and post game need a lot of work also.

fairandbalanced
02-22-2009, 05:02 AM
VS GOOD TEAMS

Probably longer than that but Im only going by what I can remember 82games posting.

This years splits vs Good/Average/Bad teams:
http://www.82games.com/0809/COM1S11.HTM

Players who rise to the challenge when facing the best teams:
Kobe: 28.5PPG on .479FG% (.431 3PT%)
Pierce: 21.3PPG on .441FG% (.344 3PT%)
Durant: 26.1PPG on .492FG% (.479 3PT%)
KG: 16.4PPG on .545FG%
Al Jefferson: 25.6PPG on .502FG%
Iverson: 19.0PPG on .437FG%
JR Smith: 15.1PPG on .449FG% (.427 3PT%)
Grant Hill: 12.3PPG on .569FG%

Star Players who produce less PTS against the best:
Dwight: 17.0PPG on .494FG%
Vince Carter: 17.3PPG on .417FG% (.344 3PT%)
Joe Johnson: 18.9PPG on .426FG% (.262 3PT%)
Derrick Rose: 15.3PPG on .432FG%
LeBron: 27.2PPG on .466FG% (.236 3PT%)
Chauncey 15.9PPG on .395FG% (.334 3PT%)
Melo : 18.7PPG on .424FG% (.486 3PT%)
Artest: 14.9PPG on .360FG% (.394 3PT%)
Shaq: 15.4PPG on .547FG%
Bosh: 19.8PPG on .450FG%

Star Players who go NUTS on BAD TEAMS
Brandon Roy: 25.5PPG on .529FG% (.489 3PT%)
Wade: 30.0PPG on .488FG% (8.3AST)
Ray Allen: 18.1PPG on .534FG% (.461 3PT%)
LeBron: 27.8PPG on .533FG% (.338 3PT%)
Melo: 25.7PPG on .467FG% (.349 3PT%)
Granger: 27.4PPG on .442FG% (.366 3PT%)
Pau Gasol: 20.4PPG on .577FG% (10+Boards)
Dwight: 23.1PPG on .597FG%
Shaq: 18.3PPG on .626FG%
Bosh: 25.3PPG on .502FG%

Theres more but those were the ones who caught my eye, bigmen usually dominate the really crap teams the most.

I found it interesting that Dirk plays the same against everyone, of course PTS arent the sole measure of how well a player performs against the best, LeBron raises every other facet of his game against better competition, but struggles to get going himself offensively though keep in mind its all relative Bron is still awesome against the best, also these stats are prone to random variances due to the smallish sample size and how a player plays in the playoffs is much more telling of a players ability to step it up but I just wanted to throw these #'s out there.....

Thanks for lecturing us, now can we see how Wade and Lebron did against the good teams? Wade had his season high against a good team, does that show on your stats? This is the most biased post ever, but whenever I post something, INK is all up on me telling me I am biased. This PSD is crap.

ARMIN12NBA
02-22-2009, 05:17 AM
Thanks for lecturing us, now can we see how Wade and Lebron did against the good teams? Wade had his season high against a good team, does that show on your stats? This is the most biased post ever, but whenever I post something, INK is all up on me telling me I am biased. This PSD is crap.

Telling it like it is, Fair and Balanced. Weren't you the same dude who said Michael Redd and Kobe Bryant were much much more comparable than Wade and Bryant since Kobe was out of Wade's league? :eyebrow: I think so. :rolleyes:

Faneik
02-22-2009, 06:09 AM
Idk why. I honestly don't care. I just enjoy watching Kobe and Wade both play. I expect Wade to play great vs the bad and good teams both. And he does. So does Kobe, Kobe's the best player in the league by far, no question about that

this made me laugh.

Faneik
02-22-2009, 06:17 AM
Whether Kobe leads the league in scoring or not, doesn't really matter. The fact is he is the BEST player in the league, he can take over a game at any point he wants.

lol... so why didn't he in the 2004 & 2008 Finals?...

Wasn't he in the mood for more rings?...

Hawkize31
02-22-2009, 06:54 AM
I am just reading this thread now, and actually Lebron leads the league in scoring, but Kobe may well end up leading it, so I will assume that Kobe does for argument's sake.

Kobe leading the league in scoring doesn't impress me as much because of the style of play Kobe has. Don't get me wrong, he is great, probably the best right now, and he is one of my favorite players to watch. But he takes more shots than anyone and thats why he gets so many points. His .471 FG% isn't that great, its barely in the top 40 among players with 500 fgs attempted. Howard's is .569 (yeah I know hes a center and takes easy shots), Lebron's is .493. I mean, Kobe has so many 30+ point nights where he shoots like 40%, and thats not really helping your team all that much.

In his last three 30+ point games he went 13-30 (.433), 9-22 (.409), and 14-33 (.424). Those are games that help you in scoring but don't particularly help your team.

I like LeBron James, and he and Kobe are pretty much the two best players right now, so I'd like to compare the two. Kobe averages 10.0 baskets a game and Lebron averages 10.1. Kobe, however, does it on 21.2 shots and Lebron does it on 20.4. Kobe averages 5.0 assists to James' 7.1. The point here is that if Kobe would dish it out more instead of his trademark "I-am-completely-defended-but-I-will-shoot-anyway" shots I think he would be a better player while scoring a little less. But hey, sometimes Kobe does make those ridiculous shots, especially in clutch situations. And thats cool, hes still great, and he gets more points that way, but maybe thats why Lebron scores the same amount (or higher) on less shots and has more assists.

Or in a shorter, more sarcastic way: If Paul Pierce took 30 shots a game, he'd lead the league in scoring too.

bloomerfan1
02-22-2009, 07:31 AM
well kobe is still the best player in the leauge. That didn't change this year


Best maybe but you should score some points when you shoot 45 times a game same with Lebron shoot shoot shoot heck they shoot so much their arms should be tired lol

Fear_GAS_OLDier
02-22-2009, 08:36 AM
isnt kobe averaging 27.5 and lebron 28.6?

Fear_GAS_OLDier
02-22-2009, 08:38 AM
lol... so why didn't he in the 2004 & 2008 Finals?...

Wasn't he in the mood for more rings?...

cuz his team collapsed, he can take over a game but sometimes superhero's need sidekicks......YOU SUCK IN THE FINALS LAMAR! QUIT BEING A BABY AND REALIZE YOUR A GOOD PLAYER! THATS WHY EVERYBODY WANTS TO TRADE YOU! BECAUSE WE THINK YOUR VALUABLE YET WE WON'T GET FAIR VALUE, BUT DANG IT DUDE QUIT BEING INCONSISTENT!

Faneik
02-22-2009, 08:44 AM
... he can take over a game at any point he wants.


cuz his team collapsed, he can take over a game but sometimes superhero's need sidekicks......YOU SUCK IN THE FINALS LAMAR! QUIT BEING A BABY AND REALIZE YOUR A GOOD PLAYER! THATS WHY EVERYBODY WANTS TO TRADE YOU! BECAUSE WE THINK YOUR VALUABLE YET WE WON'T GET FAIR VALUE, BUT DANG IT DUDE QUIT BEING INCONSISTENT!

1st you said Kobe could take over a game at any point he wants.

If Lakers don't win, it's Kobe's teammates fault (Odom).

What's your affiliate number of the Kobe's D**kRiders Bandwagon?

SJSHARKIES
02-22-2009, 02:14 PM
lol... so why didn't he in the 2004 & 2008 Finals?...

Wasn't he in the mood for more rings?...

Yes, Championships are important and at the end of the day they do define how great of a player you are. Lebron hasn't won one does that mean he isn't one of the best? No, of course not. Kobe is the best.

SJSHARKIES
02-22-2009, 02:17 PM
1st you said Kobe could take over a game at any point he wants.

If Lakers don't win, it's Kobe's teammates fault (Odom).

What's your affiliate number of the Kobe's D**kRiders Bandwagon?

First off, Kobe already has 3 championships. Secondly, it's my opinion you got a problem than go *** yourself. I'm a Kings fan by the way u dic, I hate the Lakers, but I have to give Kobe respect.

SJSHARKIES
02-22-2009, 02:17 PM
I can tell it's breaking your ballz you being a Boston fan and all.

Faneik
02-22-2009, 02:24 PM
your lack of logic breaks my balls.

1st kobe can take over a game at will.

i asked you so why didn't he when it mattered (finals).

you said it's kobe's teammates fault.

zero logic.

SJSHARKIES
02-22-2009, 02:26 PM
your lack of logic breaks my balls.

1st kobe can take over a game at will.

i asked you so why didn't he when it mattered (finals).

you said it's kobe's teammates fault.

zero logic.

When did I say it was his teammates fault? You loose as a whole team.

lakers4sho
02-22-2009, 02:26 PM
your lack of logic breaks my balls.

1st kobe can take over a game at will.

i asked you so why didn't he when it mattered (finals).

you said it's kobe's teammates fault.

zero logic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQaVvf2VOsc&fmt=18

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 02:30 PM
how many mpg does Kobe play against crappy teams? I would like to see that number.

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 02:31 PM
That's Kobe, doesn't show up for the finals. He was dominated by Paul Pierce. Kobe tried to take over but was completly shut down. Gasol was thrown around like a girl by Leon Powe HAHAHA.

SJSHARKIES
02-22-2009, 02:35 PM
That's Kobe, doesn't show up for the finals. He was dominated by Paul Pierce. Kobe tried to take over but was completly shut down. Gasol was thrown around like a girl by Leon Powe HAHAHA.

Seriously though u Boston fans crack me up, stopped by Pierce. Actually, Kobe was stopped by a great team effort by BOSTON. YOU hear the key word TEAM effort. Don't over exaggerate and say he was stopped by Pierce all by himself. That's what Boston is so good at they play as a team and pick up other defenders, they have each others back. Seriously don't make stupid remarks.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 02:38 PM
Seriously though u Boston fans crack me up, stopped by Pierce. Actually, Kobe was stopped by a great team effort by BOSTON. YOU hear the key word TEAM effort. Don't over exaggerate and say he was stopped by Pierce all by himself. That's what Boston is so good at they play as a team and pick up other defenders, they have each others back. Seriously don't make stupid remarks.

agreed, but you Laker fans need to remember that IF you win a title. I can't wait for the ridiculous stuff said about the messiah Kobe if they win it, it is already out of control.

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 02:39 PM
Dude I never said he was stopped by Pierce I said he was dominated. Yes it was a complete team effort by the Celtics. It was like Kobe didn;t even show up. The Lakers can not beat the Celtics in a 7 game series, they are not strong enough

dee279
02-22-2009, 02:40 PM
Well Kobe goes off on suck teams too!!! 81 on raptors, 61 on knicks so yeah u supposed to go hard on bad teams if u dont then i dont know what you are doin unless u puttin up 15 assist if u aint puttin up 30 points or more mine as well rest on the bench

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 02:42 PM
agreed, but you Laker fans need to remember that IF you win a title. I can't wait for the ridiculous stuff said about the messiah Kobe if they win it, it is already out of control.

They will say **** like Kobe is the best ever blah blah blah, if they lose it will be everyone's fault bit Kobe's. If Kobe didn't drive Shaq out of LA we wouldn't have this discussion because Kobe would have 7 or 8 rings. Without a player like Shaq Kobe's ring days are over.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 02:45 PM
They will say **** like Kobe is the best ever blah blah blah, if they lose it will be everyone's fault bit Kobe's. If Kobe didn't drive Shaq out of LA we wouldn't have this discussion because Kobe would have 7 or 8 rings. Without a player like Shaq Kobe's ring days are over.

I just get pissed when MJ comparisons come up. That's all. And if Kobe wins a ring, it will be nonstop. THere is no comparing them. There never will. MJ was 6-0 in the finals, as the best player on his team, beating hall of famers left and right. Kobe can't ever claim that, no matter how long he plays, no matter how many points he scores, no matter how many times he makes the defensive teams which are a disgrace. Look, I think Kobe is a great, great player, one of the top 20-30 all time. But the MJ thing has to stop

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 02:51 PM
I just get pissed when MJ comparisons come up. That's all. And if Kobe wins a ring, it will be nonstop. THere is no comparing them. There never will. MJ was 6-0 in the finals, as the best player on his team, beating hall of famers left and right. Kobe can't ever claim that, no matter how long he plays, no matter how many points he scores, no matter how many times he makes the defensive teams which are a disgrace. Look, I think Kobe is a great, great player, one of the top 20-30 all time. But the MJ thing has to stop

Agreed, Kobe is no where even near the same class as MJ and never will be. Kobe is in the top 20 or 30. Jordan top 2, I say the greatest ever. The defensive teams that Kobe makes it on is a disgrace that dude does not play that great of defense.Yes he is an amazing player but like Jordan no ****ing way

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 02:57 PM
Agreed, Kobe is no where even near the same class as MJ and never will be. Kobe is in the top 20 or 30. Jordan top 2, I say the greatest ever. The defensive teams that Kobe makes it on is a disgrace that dude does not play that great of defense.Yes he is an amazing player but like Jordan no ****ing way

Jordan is clear cut #1, unless you are biased, or 87 years old, and still claim Bill Sharman could be a lead guard today. Magic #2, then Bird #3. After that, it gets argumentative.

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 02:59 PM
Jordan #1 Bill Russell #2

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 03:03 PM
Jordan #1 Bill Russell #2

okay. Are you 87? I would never deny the achievements of those from the past, but the fact is, Russell would never have dominated the way he did had you put him in a game in 1998. That is how I pick them. And in 40 years, there will be players so much physically better and stronger, MJ, Magic, Bird, and even Kobe will not be looked at as the best players of all time. Sports evolve. The only sport that a dude from 50 years ago could still dominate is a skill sport, like baseball or golf

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 03:06 PM
Agreed but Bill Russell has like 11 rings, that doesn't evolve

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 03:18 PM
Agreed but Bill Russell has like 11 rings, that doesn't evolve

That was impressive. But when you win round 1 and then your in the finals, that does not tell me much.

Kakaroach
02-22-2009, 03:20 PM
MJ no doubt #1. I would say Bird #2 then its up for grabs.

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 03:23 PM
Does it matter how many rings they have???I think Malone should be top 5

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 03:29 PM
Does it matter how many rings they have???I think Malone should be top 5

rings aren't everything, but they do matter I think. KG moved into top 20 of all time, and that was because he finally won a ring. Malone was not top 5. For top 5, you were the best at your position most likely. Duncan is better than Malone, and in my opinion, so was McHale and Barkley. Hell, even KG may be with him

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 03:36 PM
KG I think is in the top 10, and I am not trying to bias he has one of the best all around games ever. Kareem is ahead of Bird and Magic.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 03:38 PM
KG I think is in the top 10, and I am not trying to bias he has one of the best all around games ever. Kareem is ahead of Bird and Magic.

I am from Minnesota, my KG bias knows no boundries, but I don't think he is top 10. Until surrounded by 2 hall of famers, he couldn't do it. Not even get to the finals. Now, his numbers, and the way he has played for 13 years, dictate that he is for sure top 20. Kareem played for more years than most posters are old, he is a top 5-10 player, but he is not better than Bird or Magic. Not in my book anyways.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 03:38 PM
KG I think is in the top 10, and I am not trying to bias he has one of the best all around games ever. Kareem is ahead of Bird and Magic.

:speechless:

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 03:41 PM
This is coming from a guy, whose favorite player of all time is KG. I am from Minnesota, and even when I moved south, the WOlves and KG were my life basketball wise. Kevin Garnett, as great as he is, was a supreme choker in almost every big situation, outside the Sacramento series in 2004. He didn't deliver in the clutch, he was way to loyal to his teammates and took it personal when management traded one of his boys away, even if that player sucked big time. He was not a winner, no matter how badly he wanted to be. Garnett may be the best player on the Celtics, but when the game is on the line, he does NOT want the ball. That is not a top 10 player. Now, his numbers, and the way he plays, and the desire he has almost outweighs it all, but I can never put him up there with Duncan, MJ, Magic, Bird, etc. Never.

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 03:43 PM
I am from Minnesota, my KG bias knows no boundries, but I don't think he is top 10. Until surrounded by 2 hall of famers, he couldn't do it. Not even get to the finals. Now, his numbers, and the way he has played for 13 years, dictate that he is for sure top 20. Kareem played for more years than most posters are old, he is a top 5-10 player, but he is not better than Bird or Magic. Not in my book anyways.

If Cassell wasn't injured for the WCF sota would have beat the Lakers

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 03:45 PM
If Cassell wasn't injured for the WCF sota would have beat the Lakers

the what if games are for losers man. Don't lower yourself to that. As soon as I see a Laker fan start crying what if Bynum would have played, or blah, blah, blah, those are the ones I tune out. Goes for any team

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 03:47 PM
If Cassell wasn't injured for the WCF sota would have beat the Lakers

And if Magic and Byron Scott did not get injured right before the finals started, the Lakers would have beat the Pistons in 1989. If Malone did not get hurt in game 1 vs the Pistons in 2004, they would have won that series too. If Bynum and Ariza were not hurt last year, they would have won that too. So whats the count now? Lakers 17 championships, Celtics 16?

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 03:53 PM
You think Bynum and Ariza would have made the difference???? you you ****ing kidding me???

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 03:55 PM
You think Bynum and Ariza would have made the difference???? you you ****ing kidding me???

Its much more feasable than Sam ****ing Cassel being the reason why the Wolves lost to the Lakers.

DitchDat
02-22-2009, 03:57 PM
In the beginning of the season, I thought D-Wade was gonna average 30+ points.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 03:58 PM
Its much more feasable than Sam ****ing Cassel being the reason why the Wolves lost to the Lakers.

dude, Cassell was an all star that year, and saved the Wolves in the Sacramento series, so yes, he would have helped the Wolves more than Bynum and Azaria would have helped the Lakers last season. KG was the point guard in game 6, the Lakers at least had an all star in the frontcourt to replace him off that gift trade from Memphis. My whole point is, why get into the what if stuff. It is all hypothetical, and filled with bias

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 03:58 PM
This is coming from a guy, whose favorite player of all time is KG. I am from Minnesota, and even when I moved south, the WOlves and KG were my life basketball wise. Kevin Garnett, as great as he is, was a supreme choker in almost every big situation, outside the Sacramento series in 2004. He didn't deliver in the clutch, he was way to loyal to his teammates and took it personal when management traded one of his boys away, even if that player sucked big time. He was not a winner, no matter how badly he wanted to be. Garnett may be the best player on the Celtics, but when the game is on the line, he does NOT want the ball. That is not a top 10 player. Now, his numbers, and the way he plays, and the desire he has almost outweighs it all, but I can never put him up there with Duncan, MJ, Magic, Bird, etc. Never.

Agreed, all of those things you mentioned above are clear cut reasons why he's not a top 15 player of all time. He's a top 25 player, but nowhere near top ten or even 15.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 04:02 PM
dude, Cassell was an all star that year, and saved the Wolves in the Sacramento series, so yes, he would have helped the Wolves more than Bynum and Azaria would have helped the Lakers last season. KG was the point guard in game 6, the Lakers at least had an all star in the frontcourt to replace him off that gift trade from Memphis. My whole point is, why get into the what if stuff. It is all hypothetical, and filled with bias

I agree. What ifs are pointless. That is why I made the post at the top of this page. Saying all kinds of what ifs for the Lakers. He said as if it was a fact that Cassell would have made the Wolves beat the Lakers. So I was being sarcastic saying if Magic, Scott, Malone, Bynum, Ariza, did not miss the finals, the Lakers would have 17 rings right now. But we all know that did not happen. Saying if Cassell was healthy is the same thing as me saying "ifs" for all the Lakers that have missed the finals.

luckynumber_752
02-22-2009, 04:03 PM
LeBron is better than Kobe. Everybody seems to think that whoever leads the league in scoring, is the best player in the world. It's pretty ********.

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 04:05 PM
That was impressive. But when you win round 1 and then your in the finals, that does not tell me much.

:laugh2:

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 04:07 PM
I agree. What ifs are pointless. That is why I made the post at the top of this page. Saying all kinds of what ifs for the Lakers. He said as if it was a fact that Cassell would have made the Wolves beat the Lakers. So I was being sarcastic saying if Magic, Scott, Malone, Bynum, Ariza, did not miss the finals, the Lakers would have 17 rings right now. But we all know that did not happen. Saying if Cassell was healthy is the same thing as me saying "ifs" for all the Lakers that have missed the finals.

uh, dude, that series killed me. Cassell played the first game, I think the Lakers won by like 10. He didn't play the second game, Wolves won by almost 20. He played the third game, close loss, but was just limping around. He was basically out from then on, and the WOlves lost by 5, won a game, then were beat again. Cassell was playing so well that playoffs, and I personally think the WOlves matched up very well with Detroit, better than the Lakers did in fact. But, whatever. Is what it is.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 04:08 PM
LeBron is better than Kobe. Everybody seems to think that whoever leads the league in scoring, is the best player in the world. It's pretty ********.

but isn't LeBron leading the NBA in scoring?

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 04:10 PM
but isn't LeBron leading the NBA in scoring?

He just put his own foot in his mouth because Lebron won the scoring title last season is leading the league in scoring right now.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 04:12 PM
LeBron is better than Kobe. Everybody seems to think that whoever leads the league in scoring, is the best player in the world. It's pretty ********.

:confused:. So is Kobe better than Lebron because Kobe does not lead the league in scoring.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 04:14 PM
but isn't LeBron leading the NBA in scoring?


He just put his own foot in his mouth because Lebron won the scoring title last season is leading the league in scoring right now.

You guys beat me to it. I bet he is going to come back and say, "well, Lebron scores more points so of course he is better than Bryant"

ARMIN12NBA
02-22-2009, 04:17 PM
I just get pissed when MJ comparisons come up. That's all. And if Kobe wins a ring, it will be nonstop. THere is no comparing them. There never will. MJ was 6-0 in the finals, as the best player on his team, beating hall of famers left and right. Kobe can't ever claim that, no matter how long he plays, no matter how many points he scores, no matter how many times he makes the defensive teams which are a disgrace. Look, I think Kobe is a great, great player, one of the top 20-30 all time. But the MJ thing has to stop

They can be compared. Don't fool yourself. Many players can easily be compared to greats. Easily. You see players out of college get compared to greats all the time and I don't see you whining. Not to mention that Bryant is closer to Jordan than those players are compared to their respective greats. Is he as good? No, but who cares. Why can't he be compared anyways? They are both shooting guards with similar builds and are both great two way players.

Kobe can never be undefeated in the Finals, but he can definitely win more championships. He has already won while beating other HOFs like Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, and Jason Kidd. If he wins the next few years as the best then you can easily add Lebron or Allen or Pierce to the list of wing players Bryant has defeated in the Finals. His career isn't over yet so don't make sweeping statements like "never" especially because he can easily accomplish two of those things on that list this year. :eyebrow:'

Kobe deserves and deserved to be on those defensive teams. He was an especially great defender from 99-04. Although he hasn't been on that level, he is still better than most wing players because of the fact that he has to carry a team on both ends of the floor; not just one. Bryant is still a very good defender and has locked up James twice as well as Wade and other top wing players. Bryant is still a great defender and it is by no means a disgrace. That word is too over the top. Maybe you can say 1st team is unjustified, but not a disgrace. If anything, he would still make 2nd team.

The MJ thing does not have to stop. Comparisons do not mean they are equal. Just similar...And they are very similar in their style of play and even leadership abilities. Alright? :eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 04:24 PM
They can be compared. Don't fool yourself. Many players can easily be compared to greats. Easily. You see players out of college get compared to greats all the time and I don't see you whining. Not to mention that Bryant is closer to Jordan than those players are compared to their respective greats. Is he as good? No, but who cares. Why can't he be compared anyways? They are both shooting guards with similar builds and are both great two way players.

Kobe can never be undefeated in the Finals, but he can definitely win more championships. He has already won while beating other HOFs like Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, and Jason Kidd. If he wins the next few years as the best then you can easily add Lebron or Allen or Pierce to the list of wing players Bryant has defeated in the Finals. His career isn't over yet so don't make sweeping statements like "never" especially because he can easily accomplish two of those things on that list this year. :eyebrow:'

Kobe deserves and deserved to be on those defensive teams. He was an especially great defender from 99-04. Although he hasn't been on that level, he is still better than most wing players because of the fact that he has to carry a team on both ends of the floor; not just one. Bryant is still a very good defender and has locked up James twice as well as Wade and other top wing players. Bryant is still a great defender and it is by no means a disgrace. That word is too over the top. Maybe you can say 1st team is unjustified, but not a disgrace. If anything, he would still make 2nd team.

The MJ thing does not have to stop. Comparisons do not mean they are equal. Just similar...And they are very similar in their style of play and even leadership abilities. Alright? :eyebrow:

You can compare anything to anything, this is true. I personally think the MJ is far superior to Bryant. I can not be convinced otherwise. MJ was the best player in the world year after year, and was the ultimate winner. Along with that, the most riduclous stats in modern basketball by a landslide. So to me, comparing MJ to anyone, is ridiculous. Maybe if Kobe wins 3 rings, as the clear cut best player on his team (to date, he has 0 of those), I will at least listen to the comparison before I laugh it off. Sound fair?

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 04:25 PM
They can be compared. Don't fool yourself. Many players can easily be compared to greats. Easily. You see players out of college get compared to greats all the time and I don't see you whining. Not to mention that Bryant is closer to Jordan than those players are compared to their respective greats. Is he as good? No, but who cares. Why can't he be compared anyways? They are both shooting guards with similar builds and are both great two way players.

Kobe can never be undefeated in the Finals, but he can definitely win more championships. He has already won while beating other HOFs like Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, and Jason Kidd. If he wins the next few years as the best then you can easily add Lebron or Allen or Pierce to the list of wing players Bryant has defeated in the Finals. His career isn't over yet so don't make sweeping statements like "never" especially because he can easily accomplish two of those things on that list this year. :eyebrow:'

Kobe deserves and deserved to be on those defensive teams. He was an especially great defender from 99-04. Although he hasn't been on that level, he is still better than most wing players because of the fact that he has to carry a team on both ends of the floor; not just one. Bryant is still a very good defender and has locked up James twice as well as Wade and other top wing players. Bryant is still a great defender and it is by no means a disgrace. That word is too over the top. Maybe you can say 1st team is unjustified, but not a disgrace. If anything, he would still make 2nd team.

The MJ thing does not have to stop. Comparisons do not mean they are equal. Just similar...And they are very similar in their style of play and even leadership abilities. Alright? :eyebrow:

Agree, people compare Lebron to Magic and MJ. But nobody gets all up in arms about that. And Lebron has not accomplished 1/8 of what Magic or MJ did. People always say Kobe cant be compared with MJ because he does not have enough rings. How many does Lebron have again? People say Kobe struggled in the last 2 finals. How did Lebron do in his appearance in the finals? How did Lebron play against the Celtics last year?

But nobody would dare say that Lebron and Magic and Jordan should not be even mentioned in the same breath. And as of right now, they shouldn't

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 04:28 PM
Agree, people compare Lebron to Magic and MJ. But nobody gets all up in arms about that. And Lebron has not accomplished 1/8 of what Magic or MJ did. People always say Kobe cant be compared with MJ because he does not have enough rings. How many does Lebron have again? People say Kobe struggled in the last 2 finals. How did Lebron do in his appearance in the finals? How did Lebron play against the Celtics last year?

But nobody would dare say that Lebron and Magic and Jordan should not be even mentioned in the same breath. And as of right now, they shouldn't

and I will call out people for saying that as well, or that Dirk is like Bird, etc, etc. Look, I can see the MJ/Kobe thing, only because they are close in size, and use that fadeaway, and the fact that they are big market SG's, but I don't think Kobe is on the level of Michael Jordan, never has been, and never will be. That is my opinion. LeBron's game resembles Magic's I guess, but you can't say that LeBron has had the same career to this point, no way. If he continues to put up unreal numbers, (remember, Magic was a poor shooter and defender, the same criticism James gets), then I am fine with putting LeBron up there with those guys, but there was only one Magic. THere was only one Bird. And there is certainly only one MJ.

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 04:36 PM
and I will call out people for saying that as well, or that Dirk is like Bird, etc, etc. Look, I can see the MJ/Kobe thing, only because they are close in size, and use that fadeaway, and the fact that they are big market SG's, but I don't think Kobe is on the level of Michael Jordan, never has been, and never will be. That is my opinion. LeBron's game resembles Magic's I guess, but you can't say that LeBron has had the same career to this point, no way. If he continues to put up unreal numbers, (remember, Magic was a poor shooter and defender, the same criticism James gets), then I am fine with putting LeBron up there with those guys, but there was only one Magic. THere was only one Bird. And there is certainly only one MJ.

Kobe's as skilled and as competitive as Michael, but Jordan was a lot quicker and more gifted athletically. Jordan's first step was unbelievable, especially in his prime.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 04:37 PM
Kobe's as skilled and as competitive as Michael, but Jordan was a lot quicker and more gifted athletically. Jordan's first step was unbelievable, especially in his prime.

and he had huge hands, compared to Kobe's average sized hands, which makes an unreal difference when finishing after contact

ARMIN12NBA
02-22-2009, 04:43 PM
and he had huge hands, compared to Kobe's average sized hands, which makes an unreal difference when finishing after contact

I would even go as far to say they are pretty small. He makes the most out of what he's got though.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 04:46 PM
I would even go as far to say they are pretty small. He makes the most out of what he's got though.

true, for not even being able to palm the ball, he does a good job of finishing. If you go to the basketball HOF, they have a print of Dr J's hands. OMG, I can palm a ball, and my fingers end about where his knuckle is.

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 04:47 PM
and he had huge hands, compared to Kobe's average sized hands, which makes an unreal difference when finishing after contact

True, Phil Jackson often times has cited that as one of the major differences between the two guys. He also said Jordan was a better in the post, which I agree with. I think Kobe is very similar, but it's obvious Jordan was better and a lot of had to do with his various athletic gifts and his supreme basketball IQ, the man was just unbelievable in the clutch and just had an understanding of the game that most guys never had.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-22-2009, 04:48 PM
You can compare anything to anything, this is true. I personally think the MJ is far superior to Bryant. I can not be convinced otherwise. MJ was the best player in the world year after year, and was the ultimate winner. Along with that, the most riduclous stats in modern basketball by a landslide. So to me, comparing MJ to anyone, is ridiculous. Maybe if Kobe wins 3 rings, as the clear cut best player on his team (to date, he has 0 of those), I will at least listen to the comparison before I laugh it off. Sound fair?

I dont understand how you say MJ'S stat line is the most ridiculous in modern day basketball by a landslide. If you adjust for the pace factor, and the averages of their counterparts, Kobe and MJ'S stats are very comparable. And if you judge them at a 36 min clip, they become even closer. Add to the fact that Kobe missed out on his prime years of statistical dominance because he had to take a back seat to Shaq, and they are even more comparable.

Kobe and Jordan, from age 26 to age 30, have pretty identical stats. These years are the fairest to compare the two players. Because they were the same age and they were both put in the same offense. They are also the no doubt number one options on their teams. Kobe has averaged 30.45 points, 5.79 rebounds, 5.25 assist since he has been without Shaq. MJ, from the same age averaged 31.91 pts 6.49 rebounds and 5.86 assist.

I'm sure you know that MJ'S Bulls played at a much faster pace than Kobe's Lakers so of course Jordan's numbers are going to be skewed in his favor. But without adjusting for pace, you can already see they were very comparable statistically. Where Jordan was able to get his biggest stat years were from ages 23 to 26. We never got to see what Kobe would have been able to do from that age because he had to defer to Shaq. So if your going to take away Kobe's credit for winning the rings, you have to admit he might have a stat line comparable with MJ'S

Keep in mind, I am not saying Kobe is better than MJ. He is not. But its a lot closer than some people give him credit for. Kobe has no weakness in his game and is exceptional at some aspects of it.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:00 PM
I dont understand how you say MJ'S stat line is the most ridiculous in modern day basketball by a landslide. If you adjust for the pace factor, and the averages of their counterparts, Kobe and MJ'S stats are very comparable. And if you judge them at a 36 min clip, they become even closer. Add to the fact that Kobe missed out on his prime years of statistical dominance because he had to take a back seat to Shaq, and they are even more comparable.

Kobe and Jordan, from age 26 to age 30, have pretty identical stats. These years are the fairest to compare the two players. Because they were the same age and they were both put in the same offense. They are also the no doubt number one options on their teams. Kobe has averaged 30.45 points, 5.79 rebounds, 5.25 assist since he has been without Shaq. MJ, from the same age averaged 31.91 pts 6.49 rebounds and 5.86 assist.

I'm sure you know that MJ'S Bulls played at a much faster pace than Kobe's Lakers so of course Jordan's numbers are going to be skewed in his favor. But without adjusting for pace, you can already see they were very comparable statistically. Where Jordan was able to get his biggest stat years were from ages 23 to 26. We never got to see what Kobe would have been able to do from that age because he had to defer to Shaq. So if your going to take away Kobe's credit for winning the rings, you have to admit he might have a stat line comparable with MJ'S

you are playing what if on Kobe's early career. It is what it is. Jordan's FG% was far better, MJ average a full steal more, and many more blocks. And saying the early stuff is garbage. Kobe came in at 18, MJ 21. Kobe should have gone to school if he was going to come in and dominate.

Kobe playoff career:
24.3 ppg, 5 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 44.5% fg, 79.8% ft, 152 games

MJ playoffs
33.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.4 spg, 0.8 bpg, 48.7% fg, 82.5& ft, 179 games.

Finals results
Kobe- 3-2
MJ- 6-0

There is your statistical difference, and blame Shaq all you want. MJ would have been the Lakers #1 option as well. Kobe is not on the same level as Michael Jordan. ANd I understand you are not saying Kobe is better, in fact, the opposite, I am simply saying the comparisons are really not very close

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 05:01 PM
Jordan is Jordan, Kobe is Kobe, Lebron is Lebron. Nobody will ever be as good as Jordan we all know that, Jordan is a household name, he will always be a legend he will always be the most popular athlete ever, Kobe will never be that popular

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 05:10 PM
you are playing what if on Kobe's early career. It is what it is. Jordan's FG% was far better, MJ average a full steal more, and many more blocks. And saying the early stuff is garbage. Kobe came in at 18, MJ 21. Kobe should have gone to school if he was going to come in and dominate.

Kobe playoff career:
24.3 ppg, 5 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 44.5% fg, 79.8% ft, 152 games

MJ playoffs
33.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.4 spg, 0.8 bpg, 48.7% fg, 82.5& ft, 179 games.

Finals results
Kobe- 3-2
MJ- 6-0

There is your statistical difference, and blame Shaq all you want. MJ would have been the Lakers #1 option as well. Kobe is not on the same level as Michael Jordan. ANd I understand you are not saying Kobe is better, in fact, the opposite, I am simply saying the comparisons are really not very close

Kobe's numbers are down in the playoffs his first 2 or 3 yrs because he was only 18, 19 yrs. old, and didn't start back in those days. It's better to examine both guys numbers during their primes. Obviously, Jordan would win out, but Bryant's playoff numbers are lower because of those couple of yrs. (Michael came in the league more polished and had played 3 yrs of college basketball)

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:14 PM
Kobe's numbers are down in the playoffs his first 2 or 3 yrs because he was only 18, 19 yrs. old, and didn't start back in those days. It's better to examine both guys numbers during their primes. Obviously, Jordan would win out, but Bryant's numbers are lower because of those couple of yrs. (Michael came in the league more polished and had played 3 yrs of college basketball)

I don't care why MJ's numbers are better, they were. That's the point. THe what if bs is just that, bs. Does this factor in MJ taking a year and a half off in the middle of his prime? Yep. And he still never lost a finals series. It can not be justified in any way that Kobe is on the level of Michael Jordan. You can run it thru any stat program you wish, it won't matter. Lets see Kobe take the next year and a half off, remember, MJ was exactly Kobe's age when he left, and see what he does when he gets back.

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 05:17 PM
Why are Laker fans so desperate to compare Kobe to Jordan????

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:19 PM
see, this **** is why some get called a Kobe hater. I don't hate Kobe. I think he is an unreal player. But I am not gonna sit idle and watch people try and say he is on the level of the greatest player of all time, the ultimate winner, with no weaknesses. Until Kobe wins 3 rings, as the best player on his team, stop it. It doesn't make sense. There is no comparison

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:20 PM
you should be comparing him to Laker greats of the past. Try Jerry West, and he had better numbers even, although I would say Bryant is the better player I think.

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 05:22 PM
I don't care why MJ's numbers are better, they were. That's the point. THe what if bs is just that, bs. Does this factor in MJ taking a year and a half off in the middle of his prime? Yep. And he still never lost a finals series. It can not be justified in any way that Kobe is on the level of Michael Jordan. You can run it thru any stat program you wish, it won't matter. Lets see Kobe take the next year and a half off, remember, MJ was exactly Kobe's age when he left, and see what he does when he gets back.

I didn't say Kobe was better, I was just pointing out why his playoff numbers are lower. Obviously, Jordan is better, but Kobe is comprable.

*The year Jordan came back was great, but they were also beaten by Orlando that year, he won the title the following year.

GspLAL
02-22-2009, 05:25 PM
I don't care why MJ's numbers are better, they were. That's the point. THe what if bs is just that, bs. Does this factor in MJ taking a year and a half off in the middle of his prime? Yep. And he still never lost a finals series. It can not be justified in any way that Kobe is on the level of Michael Jordan. You can run it thru any stat program you wish, it won't matter. Lets see Kobe take the next year and a half off, remember, MJ was exactly Kobe's age when he left, and see what he does when he gets back.

From what I've read in your posts you don't care about "why" something happened, wtf kind of way is that to think? You keep saying I dont care how this and that happened. If people thought like that in the world they would be pretty screwed..

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 05:25 PM
They are no where near comparable, and you do not have one good reason to support that they are

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:26 PM
I didn't say Kobe was better, I was just pointing out why his playoff numbers are lower. Obviously, Jordan is better, but Kobe is comprable.

*The year Jordan came back was great, but they were also beaten by Orlando that year, he won the title the following year.

I know they lost to Orlando, Nick Anderson made a crucial block on MJ to seal it. That was conference finals, and MJ played 17 games before playoffs. SO pardon my ability to excuse him on that one. And didnt Kobe just break the MSG record MJ set during his 12th game back from a 19 month layoff? Against a Knick team that plays with the 7 second rule, vs the Knicks squad that just came off a finals appearance, and had, Starks, Jackson, Ewing, and many other great players?

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 05:27 PM
If it wasn't for Shaq Kobe wouldn't be ****

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 05:27 PM
see, this **** is why some get called a Kobe hater. I don't hate Kobe. I think he is an unreal player. But I am not gonna sit idle and watch people try and say he is on the level of the greatest player of all time, the ultimate winner, with no weaknesses. Until Kobe wins 3 rings, as the best player on his team, stop it. It doesn't make sense. There is no comparison

I don't believe you are a quote, "Kobe hater," I just simply believe that Kobe's game and mentality is very similar to MJ's.... Like I said earlier, Jordan is better (GOAT), but Kobe is the player closest to him.

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 05:29 PM
I know they lost to Orlando, Nick Anderson made a crucial block on MJ to seal it. That was conference finals, and MJ played 17 games before playoffs. SO pardon my ability to excuse him on that one. And didnt Kobe just break the MSG record MJ set during his 12th game back from a 19 month layoff? Against a Knick team that plays with the 7 second rule, vs the Knicks squad that just came off a finals appearance, and had, Starks, Jackson, Ewing, and many other great players?

Kobe's 61 this year was impressive UNTIL Lebron came in and did the same thing but with 10 assists not 2

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:30 PM
From what I've read in your posts you don't care about "why" something happened, wtf kind of way is that to think? You keep saying I dont care how this and that happened. If people thought like that in the world they would be pretty screwed..

no, if why means you can learn from it, that is up to the individual to learn. When something happens, it just does. It can not be changed. And we are already screwed in this country. Why? Because a person is smart, people are stupid. If a team loses, it is their responsibility to figure out why and learn from it. It doesn't change the fact that they lost. Or that MJ's numbers are far better than Kobe's in the playoffs. They just are. I don't care why. Becuase at the end of the day, they are better. Why couldnt I make it to the NBA??? Well, I am 6'. Not 6'7". Does that intrigue you? I didn't think so

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:30 PM
I don't believe you are a quote, "Kobe hater," I just simply believe that Kobe's game and mentality is very similar to MJ's.... Like I said earlier, Jordan is better (GOAT), but Kobe is the player closest to him.

alright, I can live with that dude.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:31 PM
Kobe's 61 this year was impressive UNTIL Lebron came in and did the same thing but with 10 assists not 2

its still impressive, I was just trying to make a point on the MJ/Kobe thing. Kobe is beyond impressive, but he aint Mr. Jordan

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 05:31 PM
I don't believe you are a quote, "Kobe hater," I just simply believe that Kobe's game and mentality is very similar to MJ's.... Like I said earlier, Jordan is better (GOAT), but Kobe is the player closest to him.

their mentality was no where near, Jordan was so competitive he would get in fist fights during practice. Opponents feared Jordan, I don't think they fear Kobe

GspLAL
02-22-2009, 05:34 PM
no, if why means you can learn from it, that is up to the individual to learn. When something happens, it just does. It can not be changed. And we are already screwed in this country. Why? Because a person is smart, people are stupid. If a team loses, it is their responsibility to figure out why and learn from it. It doesn't change the fact that they lost. Or that MJ's numbers are far better than Kobe's in the playoffs. They just are. I don't care why. Becuase at the end of the day, they are better. Why couldnt I make it to the NBA??? Well, I am 6'. Not 6'7". Does that intrigue you? I didn't think so

All I'm saying there's a reason why things happen and you can't ignore it. I'm not saying Kobes numbers are better because of this and that or that he is the better player because clearly he's not, BUT those reasons do matter.

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 05:39 PM
their mentality was no where near, Jordan was so competitive he would get in fist fights during practice. Opponents feared Jordan, I don't think they fear Kobe

Based on what, where are you getting the idea that people don't fear Kobe?? Kobe's resume speaks for itself, the year he finally got some help (post Shaq) he led his team to the NBA Finals while averaging 30ppg, 6apg, 6rpg (last person to do that was Michael Jordan by the way). He most certainly has the team around him to win a title this year. So, what else do you have to say?


*Like I said, Jordan was the best of all time, I am not saying Kobe is better, just comprable in terms of the current and or past players.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:40 PM
All I'm saying there's a reason why things happen and you can't ignore it. I'm not saying Kobes numbers are better because of this and that or that he is the better player because clearly he's not, BUT those reasons do matter.

well,I will agree that why matters in some arguments. I think Jordan developed earlier anyways, and sure, did playing with Shaq limit Kobes stats? Most definately. But it doesn't matter, is what I am saying. Why does Kobe have 3 rings??? Because he played with Shaq. If he had 0 rings, which is the obvious alternative, and is what he would have had he not forced his way onto the Lakers most likely, then the comparison would be even more laughable.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 05:42 PM
Based on what, where are you getting the idea that people don't fear Kobe?? Kobe's resume speaks for itself, the year he finally got some help (post Shaq) he led his team to the NBA Finals while averaging 30ppg, 6apg, 6rpg (last person to do that was Michael Jordan by the way). He most certainly has the team around him to win a title this year. So, what else do you have to say?


*Like I said, Jordan was the best of all time, I am not saying Kobe is better, just comprable in terms of the current and or past players.

If you polled all NBA players and asked them who they feared the most with the game on the line, I would guess Kobe wins in a complete landslide. I have no justification or documentation for that, but I would think the results would be eyepopping. Now, when MJ played, players would tell their wives and family to stay at home so they wouldn't be embarrased. Kobe doesn't quite bring that to the table.

Lakersfan2483
02-22-2009, 05:49 PM
If it wasn't for Shaq Kobe wouldn't be ****

So, all of the other seasons that Shaq led teams were getting knocked out in the playoffs don't need to be taken into consideration (92-99). Shaq was the clear cut no. 1 guy, but don't dismiss what Kobe brought to the table. How many titles did O'neal have prior to Bryant's development? You can't just make statements and not have any facts to backup your bad arguments. During the title runs, Bryant was no slouch himself, he avg. 21, 26 and 28ppg during their playoff runs, not to mention him being the teams "closer" and best perimeter defender. He was also responsible for guarding the oppositions best wing player. My whole point is, both Shaq and Kobe made eachother better, although O'neal was the main option. Kobe definitely can hold his own without Shaq and it takes more than one good player to win a title, so you can stop with that argument. The 3peat Lakers' teams would not beat the Spurs, Blazers, Kings, without Shaq, but they also would not have won without Kobe. They definitely would not have beaten Robinson and Duncan without the likes of Kobe, the twin towers were able to contain Shaq for the most part and Kobe was the main guy to lift them past those teams. His numbers against the Spurs during that time were amazing considering the Spurs had the best defense in the NBA. (obviously O'neal was the main guy, not disputing that or his impact on the game)

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 06:10 PM
So, all of the other seasons that Shaq led teams were getting knocked out in the playoffs don't need to be taken into consideration (92-99). Shaq was the clear cut no. 1 guy, but don't dismiss what Kobe brought to the table. How many titles did O'neal have prior to Bryant's development? You can't just make statements and not have any facts to backup your bad arguments. During the title runs, Bryant was no slouch himself, he avg. 21, 26 and 28ppg during their playoff runs, not to mention him being the teams "closer" and best perimeter defender. He was also responsible for guarding the oppositions best wing player. My whole point is, both Shaq and Kobe made eachother better, although O'neal was the main option. Kobe definitely can hold his own without Shaq and it takes more than one good player to win a title, so you can stop with that argument. The 3peat Lakers' teams would not beat the Spurs, Blazers, Kings, without Shaq, but they also would not have won without Kobe. They definitely would not have beaten Robinson and Duncan without the likes of Kobe, the twin towers were able to contain Shaq for the most part and Kobe was the main guy to lift them past those teams. His numbers against the Spurs during that time were amazing considering the Spurs had the best defense in the NBA. (obviously O'neal was the main guy, not disputing that or his impact on the game)


delicate response. I don't think I would have been as nice as a Lakers fan. Yeah, the year Kobe went for 35-5-5, and Nash stole MVP, and he led a bunch of women into the playoffs, he sucked then. I laugh at the MJ thing, but Kobe is nasty

Leafsleeve
02-22-2009, 06:45 PM
I hope Kobe goes to Greece and then all the Laker fans will become bandwagon lebron James fans

Chronz
02-22-2009, 07:30 PM
I dont think you can make this assumption that Kobe could not operate in that type of system off the little time he spent playing in it.
Believe me Im not, its just one of the examples, combined with how he saves his body now and how he doesnt go full bore even if its just a set play for someone else leaves me with the impression he wouldnt do as well.


He only played in this type of system for 43 games out of his whole career. It was the first 43 games of a season, with a new coach, and a entirely different team from the previous year. I'm pretty sure you realize that a new coaches system does not really go into full effect until the second half of the season. Kobe never got that chance because Rudy T retired.
Star players arent impacted much by changes unless its not suited to their abilities, the minute they went back to the triangle with those very same players who you just used as an excuse he was back to his efficient self. Even though the team was learning the triangle on the fly. The way he was playing I dont see how he would improve. He had all the necessary spacing, and its not like the team was learning an intricate offense, it was very simple with Kobe primarily at the top of the key, everyone else finding the open space.


Kobe was not efficient. But playing in that style of offense did have a direct impact on his assist numbers. He was averaging over 7 assist a game before they switched back to the triangle. Efficiency probably would have come with time and familiarity Players need time to adjust to a whole new system. Ask Steve Nash and Amare about that.

His passing efficiency was horrible, thats another reason why I feel he wouldnt be as effective. The more you look to pass or create the higher your turnover rate would be, to me Kobes at his best when he can read and react to how the defense plays him from a triple threat stance, Im not saying hes bad at PnR just that hes no where near as good as Bron and Wade as far as continuously working it.


Now I cant say for sure, but I'm pretty sure Lebron would not work in the triangle. And he would definitely not have been as effective playing with Shaq, or Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum clogging up the paint. Kobe works because he can spread the floor. He does not need to be within 5 feet of the rim to be effective.
He has no problem when its been Ben Wallace and Anderson Varejao, those 2 clog the paint up much more than Shaq ever did, you dont need to be a great shooter to work with Shaq. Look at D-Wade or Penny in his youth, you just need to be able to find the open lanes Shaq provides when they double team him. Bron is lethal when the defense is collapsing.


You know the triangle puts a big man in the post and uses the post man to initiate the offense.
The triangle can be altered to fit the supporting cast, it happened when Shaq got to LA and it would happen with Bron now, I imagine he would operate primarily from the pinch post area basically he would be the bigman and with all the spacing the Lakers bigs provide he could easily thrive in that situation, he wouldnt have to create for everyone as much as he does now. There are advantages to any offense, people just look at PTS/REB/AST and think thats all there is to it. Early in the season before Delonte got hurt Cleveland would run triangle sets with Bron as the 4 man behind Wally, Delonte, and Mo/Boobie out on the floor with him. Theyve gotten away from that of late, probably due to Big Z being out for awhile.


If Lebron cant put his head down and get to the rim, we all have seen he becomes very inefficient. His shooting % of the last two years in the playoffs of 41% shows that. Now picture that throughout the whole season with big men not being able to step out and allow Lebron to drive to an open area near the rim. Lebrons shooting% goes drastically down as well as his assist numbers. As well as his rebound numbers because he would not be near the rim after he kicked it out to his teammates as much anymore. He would be forced to play out on the perimeter as opposed to always away from the rim like he is accustomed to

I highly doubt that


D Wade is a different story. I think he would be very effective in this offense. He does not shoot the 3 ball that well but does have much more range than Lebron.
Bron has more range, Wade is more consistent from midrange. That wasnt true before this year, Wade has never really been an elite mid range shooter prior but in the triangle I dont know how well he would fair, his post game is underrated but its rarely used so I cant imagine how effective he would be in post heavy offense. Either way I dont think much would change, even when Kobe was turnover heavy and shooting a ridiculously low% his overall PER was nearly identical the year prior because he was creating so many more plays.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 07:32 PM
Believe me Im not, its just one of the examples, combined with how he saves his body now and how he doesnt go full bore even if its just a set play for someone else leaves me with the impression he wouldnt do as well.


Star players arent impacted much by changes unless its not suited to their abilities, the minute they went back to the triangle with those very same players who you just used as an excuse he was back to his efficient self. Even though the team was learning the triangle on the fly. The way he was playing I dont see how he would improve. He had all the necessary spacing, and its not like the team was learning an intricate offense, it was very simple with Kobe primarily at the top of the key, everyone else finding the open space.


His passing efficiency was horrible, thats another reason why I feel he wouldnt be as effective. The more you look to pass or create the higher your turnover rate would be, to me Kobes at his best when he can read and react to how the defense plays him from a triple stance threat, Im not saying hes bad at PnR just that hes no where near as good as Bron and Wade.


He has no problem when its been Ben Wallace and Anderson Varejao, those 2 clog the paint up much more than Shaq ever did, you dont need to be a great shooter to work with Shaq. Look at D-Wade or Penny in his youth, you just need to be able to find the open lanes Shaq provides when they double team him.


The triangle can be altered to fit the supporting cast, it happened when Shaq got to LA and it would happen with Bron now, I imagine he would operate primarily from the pinch post area basically he would be the bigman and with all the spacing the Lakers bigs provide he could easily thrive in that situation, he wouldnt have to create for everyone as much as he does now. There are advantages to any offense, people just look at PTS/REB/AST and think thats all there is to it. Early in the season before Delonte got hurt Cleveland would run triangle sets with Bron as the 4 man behind Wally, Delonte, and Mo/Boobie out on the floor with him. Theyve gotten away from that of late, probably due to Big Z being out for awhile.


I highly doubt that


Bron has more range, Wade is more consistent from midrange. That wasnt true before this year, Wade has never really been an elite mid range shooter prior but in the triangle I dont know how well he would fair, his post game is underrated but its rarely used so I cant imagine how effective he would be in post heavy offense. Either way I dont think much would change, even when Kobe was turnover heavy and shooting a ridiculously low% his overall PER was nearly identical the year prior because he was creating so many more plays.


my head hurts from reading all that.

Chronz
02-22-2009, 07:36 PM
Thanks for lecturing us, now can we see how Wade and Lebron did against the good teams? Wade had his season high against a good team, does that show on your stats? This is the most biased post ever, but whenever I post something, INK is all up on me telling me I am biased. This PSD is crap.
Lecturing/BIASED? Towards whom? I dont think you read too many of my posts.

Chronz
02-22-2009, 07:40 PM
how many mpg does Kobe play against crappy teams? I would like to see that number.
Ill look into it, weird how they dont show that number

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 07:41 PM
Ill look into it, weird how they dont show that number

let me know, not that I am calling him out, just curious.

Chronz
02-22-2009, 07:44 PM
my head hurts from reading all that.

I tend to do that to people, I dont know what to do sometimes, according to some I post too many one liners, then you ask the next guy and he thinks I stay up all night writing them out. Someone always has an opinion but I tried to keep it as long as whoever Im responding to did.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 07:46 PM
I tend to do that to people, I dont know what to do sometimes, according to some I post too many one liners, then you ask the next guy and he thinks I stay up all night writing them out. Someone always has an opinion but I tried to keep it as long as whoever Im responding to did.

hahahaha! You are that dude who stays up all night researching the subject on 35 different websites that show how Kobe shoots when he takes 2 dribbles left from 17'. I am just giving you crap, I enjoy most of what you post, unless you are calling me out:)

chicagowhitesox
02-22-2009, 07:49 PM
lol i'm pretty sure these are wrong, because lebron's numbers are lower against good teams and bad teams than his season average. makes no sense.

ARMIN12NBA
02-22-2009, 08:13 PM
lol i'm pretty sure these are wrong, because lebron's numbers are lower against good teams and bad teams than his season average. makes no sense.

:confused:

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 08:38 PM
:confused:

he is right. It shows, at least on the first post, that LeBron gets around 27.8 ppg against good teams, and bad teams. He averages 29 ppg. The info is either bad, or something is not being shown

Chronz
02-22-2009, 08:42 PM
Wade is destroying the Magic right now so his should go up drastically after a 40+PT outburst with the 3rd quarter barely ending.

Chronz
02-22-2009, 08:45 PM
he is right. It shows, at least on the first post, that LeBron gets around 27.8 ppg against good teams, and bad teams. He averages 29 ppg. The info is either bad, or something is not being shown

They update it every 5 days I think

Brons averaging 27 against good and bad teams but averaging 29.5 against average teams, on the season hes averaging 28.9, and hes played the majority of his games against those average teams, sounds about right doesnt it?

Hawkeye15
02-22-2009, 08:48 PM
They update it every 5 days I think

Brons averaging 27 against good and bad teams but averaging 29.5 against average teams, on the season hes averaging 28.4, and hes played the majority of his games against those average teams, sounds about right doesnt it?

I guess. I don't really fall in love with stats all that much. Every team in the NBA has very good players, so looking at the 82 game picture is more in my mind, than breaking it down like that. So, whatever. I judge a player on what I watch, not stats.

Bring The Heat
02-22-2009, 09:06 PM
same way kobe can score whenever he wants so can wade....wade has proven time in and time out he can take over whenever he wants but people here never acknowlege that...its always kobe vs. lebron....u guys need to wake up alittle...this guy can attack the rim dash in his way in and out of the defense better than anyone and he has a ring...if u tell me kobe is SLIGHTLY better than wade ill take it even though i disagree...but to say they are way better is ridiculous...

SJSHARKIES
02-24-2009, 01:27 AM
same way kobe can score whenever he wants so can wade....wade has proven time in and time out he can take over whenever he wants but people here never acknowlege that...its always kobe vs. lebron....u guys need to wake up alittle...this guy can attack the rim dash in his way in and out of the defense better than anyone and he has a ring...if u tell me kobe is SLIGHTLY better than wade ill take it even though i disagree...but to say they are way better is ridiculous...

Wade is great too, his performance in the playoffs a couple years back STILL seems to amaze me. One of the greatest playoff performances of all time somewhere in the TOP 10 of ALL TIME that's for sure.