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View Full Version : Adrian Gonzalez vs Mark Teixeira



Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 12:02 AM
Who is better?

Not just offensively, but defensively as well. All around

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 12:07 AM
Also consider the fact that Adrian plays in petco park and put up 36 HR and 120 RBI's in a pitchers park. On the road though he has 22 HR 70 RBi's and a 308 avg. Petco dealt damages a-gon's stats

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 12:11 AM
2008

Mark Teixeira

Average - .308
On Base Percentage - .410
Slugging Percentage - .552
OPS+ - 151
wOBA* - .464 (Adjusted to Turner and Angels stadium)
wOBA+ - 137
WAR - 3.3
Home Runs - 33
RBI - 121

Fielding Percentage - .997
UZR - 10.7

Adrian Gonzalez

Average - .279
On Base Percentage - .361
Slugging Percentage - .510
OPS+ - 138
wOBA* - .379 (Adjusted to Petco Park)
wOBA+ - 114
WAR - 5.1
Home Runs - 36
RBI - 119

Fielding Percentage - .996
UZR - 6.2

good spliff
02-19-2009, 12:54 AM
Uh, may I please have the switch-hitting and gold glove first baseman? Thank you.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 12:57 AM
Uh, may I please have the switch-hitting and gold glove first baseman? Thank you.

A-Gone's a GG 1B. Just stating that because most people don't know.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:03 AM
So its 2-0 since we cant count the biased votes

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 01:20 AM
So its 2-0 since we cant count the biased votes

So A-Gone's winning the poll and you claim his votes don't count? WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAK. I'm sure you'll get a dozen of you're Yankees friends to vote for Tex tomorrow so if A-Gone's within 10 votes at the end of this poll, I'll consider that a victory.

YankeeFan28
02-19-2009, 01:21 AM
Adrian Gonzalez's highest OPS in a season is barely better then Mark's career OPS. During the same age span (24-26), Teixeria was better as well.

It's left to be seen if Adrian makes the same jump Mark did around the age of 27. As of right now, it's Teixeira.

Edit: I voted for Adrian by mistake, but the count is accurate, my name just shows up in the wrong box.

JDIsMyGod23
02-19-2009, 01:22 AM
Where is the Lars Anderson option?

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:22 AM
Adrian Gonzalez's highest OPS in a season is barely better then Mark's career OPS. During the same age span (24-26), Teixeria was better as well.

It's left to be seen if Adrian makes the same jump Mark did around the age of 27. As of right now, it's Teixeira.

Your killing me YF, you say Teixeira, yet you vote Adrian.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:23 AM
Where is the Lars Anderson option?

Come on. Thats for another comparison...God vs Lars Anderson to be exact

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 01:23 AM
Adrian Gonzalez's highest OPS in a season is barely better then Mark's career OPS. During the same age span (24-26), Teixeria was better as well.

It's left to be seen if Adrian makes the same jump Mark did around the age of 27. As of right now, it's Teixeira.

Edit: I voted for Adrian by mistake, but the count is accurate, my name just shows up in the wrong box.

How could you possibly use OPS as a valid statistic when A-Gone hits in Petco Park? Come on now...

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:23 AM
So A-Gone's winning the poll and you claim his votes don't count? WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAK. I'm sure you'll get a dozen of you're Yankees friends to vote for Tex tomorrow so if A-Gone's within 10 votes at the end of this poll, I'll consider that a victory.

No, I dont need Yankee fans to win this. Stats do justice.

YankeeFan28
02-19-2009, 01:24 AM
Also consider the fact that Adrian plays in petco park and put up 36 HR and 120 RBI's in a pitchers park. On the road though he has 22 HR 70 RBi's and a 308 avg. Petco dealt damages a-gon's stats

yeah that career .336 OBP at home is all because of the ball park. I can understand the SLG difference, but ballparks really shouldn't affect plate discipline. Just the type of hit.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:25 AM
How could you possibly use OPS as a valid statistic when A-Gone hits in Petco Park? Come on now...

Teixeiras wOBA* >> Adrians wOBA*

That factors in Petco. So stop using the park as an excuse. If it was the park, then AG would have a higher wOBA than Teix

YankeeFan28
02-19-2009, 01:25 AM
How could you possibly use OPS as a valid statistic when A-Gone hits in Petco Park? Come on now...

Isn't OPS+ league and park adjusted?

Where's your argument instead of crying like a little girl and worrying about who's voting for who?

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:36 AM
Isn't OPS+ league and park adjusted?

Where's your argument instead of crying like a little girl and worrying about who's voting for who?

Because he wants to win..Every single one of the AGon voters are known PSD Yankee haters/Red Sox fans

I can see an arguement for Berkman, but for AGon?

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 01:36 AM
yeah that career .336 OBP at home is all because of the ball park. I can understand the SLG difference, but ballparks really shouldn't affect plate discipline. Just the type of hit.

Not true at all. Pitchers are much more likely to attack the hitters when they're pitching in the best pitcher's ballpark in the majors. Look at dead ball era vs. live ball era for confirmation if you need to.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 01:38 AM
Isn't OPS+ league and park adjusted?

Where's your argument instead of crying like a little girl and worrying about who's voting for who?

I never said a WORD about who's voting for who. I think you confused me with Run Gardner Run who complained that votes for A-Gone didn't count because of who voted for them. I simply stated you can't use non-park adjusted stats to judge these players when one of them plays in the most pitcher friendly park in the game.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:39 AM
So A-Gone's winning the poll and you claim his votes don't count? WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAK. I'm sure you'll get a dozen of you're Yankees friends to vote for Tex tomorrow so if A-Gone's within 10 votes at the end of this poll, I'll consider that a victory.


I never said a WORD about who's voting for who. I think you confused me with Run Gardner Run who complained that votes for A-Gone didn't count because of who voted for them. I simply stated you can't use non-park adjusted stats to judge these players when one of them plays in the most pitcher friendly park in the game.

:o

Oh and I posted park friendly stats, they still show Teixeira is better. IDK what more you could want

YankeeFan28
02-19-2009, 01:41 AM
Not true at all. Pitchers are much more likely to attack the hitters when they're pitching in the best pitcher's ballpark in the majors. Look at dead ball era vs. live ball era for confirmation if you need to.

So, what park adjusted stat shows Gonzalez as being the better offensive player?

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 01:48 AM
:o

Oh and I posted park friendly stats, they still show Teixeira is better. IDK what more you could want

You posted made up park friendly stats. Your wOBA* stats are wrong and you even posted two different ones in this thread than you did in the Berkman vs. Tex thread. Lying about stats doesn't make you right. Sorry, try again.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 01:49 AM
So, what park adjusted stat shows Gonzalez as being the better offensive player?

Park adjusted stats such as wOBA* show them almost identical offensively which means it would probably come down to the better defensive player and A-Gone's a reigning gold glove winner.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:50 AM
lol they are made up? They very much exist. I just didnt factor in Turner Field. Again I apologize.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 01:52 AM
Park adjusted stats such as wOBA* show them almost identical offensively which means it would probably come down to the better defensive player and A-Gone's a reigning gold glove winner.

his wOBA* is STILL about 40 points higher even with adding in Turner field.

So what if AGon won a gold glove? His STATS arent as good as Teixeiras defensive stats. Its like saying Derek Jeter is the best defensive SS in the game. Is that true?

Gigantes4Life
02-19-2009, 01:53 AM
Teixeira is the better player.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 01:56 AM
lol they are made up? They very much exist. I just didnt factor in Turner Field. Again I apologize.

You didn't factor in 2/3 of his season and you think the stats are legit? That's flat out lying. I use Fan Graphs too, it shows his Turner Field stats right next to his Angel stats.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 02:00 AM
Dude, just give it up. I made 1 mistake. I apologized. You act like I just committed a crime.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 02:01 AM
his wOBA* is STILL about 40 points higher even with adding in Turner field.

So what if AGon won a gold glove? His STATS arent as good as Teixeiras defensive stats. Its like saying Derek Jeter is the best defensive SS in the game. Is that true?

According to UZR (the stat you used) A-Gone's had a better UZR than Tex three of the last four years. In fact, Tex has been below average defensively half of his career. Care to skew any more stats or are you done?

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 02:02 AM
Dude, just give it up. I made 1 mistake. I apologized. You act like I just committed a crime.

Not only did you post a fake wOBA* in both this thread and the Berkman thread, but you posted two different ones in each thread. Then you misrepresented UZR stats on top of it, claiming the guy who had the worse UZR 3 of the last 4 years was the better defender.

Tragedy
02-19-2009, 02:08 AM
Teixeira is the better player.
x2

Gigantes4Life
02-19-2009, 02:08 AM
Not only did you post a fake wOBA* in both this thread and the Berkman thread, but you posted two different ones in each thread. Then you misrepresented UZR stats on top of it, claiming the guy who had the worse UZR 3 of the last 4 years was the better defender.

That would probably have something to do with the fact that Teixeira is the better defender, in several metrics.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 02:13 AM
That would probably have something to do with the fact that Teixeira is the better defender, in several metrics.

What metrics? UZR which is the most accurate has A-Gone as the better defender, that's why I tend to side with him. But if you have metrics that point to Tex being the better defender, by all means show them.

northsider
02-19-2009, 02:19 AM
So A-Gone's winning the poll and you claim his votes don't count? WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAK. I'm sure you'll get a dozen of you're Yankees friends to vote for Tex tomorrow so if A-Gone's within 10 votes at the end of this poll, I'll consider that a victory.

He def. doesn't need yankees fans to vote for Tex I think most knowledgable fans would take Tex.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 02:26 AM
Someone just asked everyone in the Yankees forum to vote for Tex so the poll is officially tainted. If you want to make an argument for Tex, go ahead but right now the look pretty even.

jmaest
02-19-2009, 02:31 AM
What metrics? UZR which is the most accurate has A-Gone as the better defender, that's why I tend to side with him. But if you have metrics that point to Tex being the better defender, by all means show them.

There are thread after thread after thread denouncing the use of UZR and how misrepresentative it actually is.

I prefer to focus on the fact that A Gon plays in the NL West, that his home/road splits are atrocious--Petco being a pitcher friendly park and all, how his OPS+ is 10 points lower than Teixeira's, how his BA is 8 points lower, how he can't hit lefties to save his life--career .248BA/.734OPS against lefties, or how his "clutch" stats simply don't measure up to Teixeira--AGon is .271BA/.839OPS with 2outs/RISP while Tex is a robust .291BA/1.070OPS.

I think it's nice to point to a guy who seems to have nice numbers and say he's better than Yankee Player 'X' but ultimately, when you actually look at all the numbers, you realize how far apart the two of them actually are. It's not even close.

jmaest
02-19-2009, 02:32 AM
Someone just asked everyone in the Yankees forum to vote for Tex so the poll is officially tainted. If you want to make an argument for Tex, go ahead but right now the look pretty even.

Where was that because I must have missed it?

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 02:35 AM
Where was that because I must have missed it?

Check the Yankees OT thread. A Yankees poster provided a direct link to this thread and asked Yankees fans to vote on it.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 02:36 AM
Someone just asked everyone in the Yankees forum to vote for Tex so the poll is officially tainted. If you want to make an argument for Tex, go ahead but right now the look pretty even.

Where? all I see it where I said "vote"

I didnt say for whom.

You really that upset that you may lose an arguement? It was tainted against Gonzalez when a Yankee hater in Wander, and 4 bitter RS fans voted for him.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 02:36 AM
Check the Yankees OT thread. A Yankees poster provided a direct link to this thread and asked Yankees fans to vote on it.

Can you provide me with where it says Vote for Teixeira?

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 02:39 AM
Heres the link btw

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328644&page=40

Its the last comment. It says plainly, VOTE. Not Vote Teixeira, or anything to rig the vote. I just wanted people to come and give their opinions

jmaest
02-19-2009, 02:39 AM
Check the Yankees OT thread. A Yankees poster provided a direct link to this thread and asked Yankees fans to vote on it.

All he did was link this thread and say "vote". He never said anything about who to vote for. Come on man, you're clearly misleading people with that nonsense.

I mean seriously, don't you have enough problems with your credibility without making things up now? Honestly man that comment just wasn't right. :pity:

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 02:38 PM
Since Berkman vs Teixeira was re opened after it was deleted, im going to re open this one since there are sig bet implications on it


EDIT: its supposed to be Adrian Gonzalez instead of Berkman in the poll

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 03:21 PM
keep in mind a-gon plays inpetco a pitchers park. if you see is away stats you will see how good he is

Padres Son
02-19-2009, 03:32 PM
Hard for me to be objective on this one. I went with Adrian (obviously) because he's younger and puts up big numbers is the biggest pitchers park in the league.

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 03:37 PM
Hard for me to be objective on this one. I went with Adrian (obviously) because he's younger and puts up big numbers is the biggest pitchers park in the league.

cant disagree at all

Kyle916
02-19-2009, 03:53 PM
Gonzalez.

Most underrated in the game.

Huge ballpark, huge numbers.

Excellent defensively.

Does his thing without the recognition...

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 03:56 PM
it should be 13-8

Joba Rules!!
02-19-2009, 04:08 PM
Career totals

Teixeira-

.389 wOBA, .919 OPS, 80.33 +WPA (In only one more season), 15.7 UZR


Year G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
6 Seasons 904 3414 566 989 223 13 203 676 13 3 442 694 .290 .378 .541 134 1847 0 22 60 53 79

Gonzalez-

.357 wOBA, .843 OPS, 47.58 +WPA, -3.9 UZR


Year G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
5 Seasons 538 2024 311 571 126 6 97 325 0 1 203 438 .282 .349 .494 124 1000 1 16 38 13 57

Am I missing something? I understand park factor has something to do with the relative substantial difference in numbers, but come on...

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 04:12 PM
Career totals

Teixeira-

.389 wOBA, .919 OPS, 80.33 +WPA (In only one more season), 15.7 UZR


Year G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
6 Seasons 904 3414 566 989 223 13 203 676 13 3 442 694 .290 .378 .541 134 1847 0 22 60 53 79

Gonzalez-

.357 wOBA, .843 OPS, 47.58 +WPA, -3.9 UZR


Year G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
5 Seasons 538 2024 311 571 126 6 97 325 0 1 203 438 .282 .349 .494 124 1000 1 16 38 13 57

Am I missing something? I understand park factor has something to do with the relative substantial difference in numbers, but come on...

if you've checked almost all padres have big changes in their numbers from when they play on the road to when they play at home. that is a big factor is a-gon's numbers

OSUGiants
02-19-2009, 04:38 PM
sportsfan, stop with the pitchers park bs, no one cares. If A-Gon really is better then Tex, then he should be able to put up allstar #'s in any ballpark.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 04:51 PM
.379 wOBA*

That number is adjusted to his home stats, which shows that hes not even close to as good as Teixeira even with the "Oh he plays in petco" excuse

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 04:52 PM
it should be 13-8

Why?

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 04:56 PM
because 5+7=dynasty and padres son both voted for a-gon in the thread before this got unlocked in the thread that you made today RGR. jdismygod and NYY NYJ NYK voted tex but their vote already counted in this. so did padres son. but not 5+7=dynasty

OSUGiants
02-19-2009, 05:00 PM
sportsfan told me that if I multiply A-Gon's road numbers by 2 that they would be better then Tex's. This is ********, that fact that I have to multiply them by 2 to make them better proves that Tex is a lot better. Now, I'm not saying that A-Gon blows, he is a solid 1B on offense and D, and he is extremely underated and gets no credit for what he does, but Tex is still a lot better.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 05:02 PM
because 5+7=dynasty and padres son both voted for a-gon in the thread before this got unlocked in the thread that you made today RGR. jdismygod and NYY NYJ NYK voted tex but their vote already counted in this. so did padres son. but not 5+7=dynasty

This is the same thread as yesterdays. Sorry, you lose

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 05:04 PM
sportsfan told me that if I multiply A-Gon's road numbers by 2 that they would be better then Tex's. This is ********, that fact that I have to multiply them by 2 to make them better proves that Tex is a lot better. Now, I'm not saying that A-Gon blows, he is a solid 1B on offense and D, and he is extremely underated and gets no credit for what he does, but Tex is still a lot better.

:laugh2:

I agree, hes underrated, but hes not better than Teixeira. Not to mention Gonzo plays in a worse league and division than Teixeira has over the years

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 05:09 PM
This is the same thread as yesterdays. Sorry, you lose

even ask him dude. you made a thread today at like 1:40 with a-gon vs tex and right before it got deleted and this got re-opened, i checked the voted jd and NYY NYK and NYJ voted for tex and padres son and 5+7 dynasty voted for a-gon. all of those people except 5+7 dynasty have a vote in this. so i should have 8 becasue it didnt get merged into this

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 05:12 PM
:laugh2:

I agree, hes underrated, but hes not better than Teixeira. Not to mention Gonzo plays in a worse league and division than Teixeira has over the years

what are you smoking? we're talking about a division with guys like Lincecum Webb Haren Cain Billingsley Lowe and Francis(was great in 07)
it is filled with great pitchers which basically helps my argument. thanks RGR.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 05:13 PM
even ask him dude. you made a thread today at like 1:40 with a-gon vs tex and right before it got deleted and this got re-opened, i checked the voted jd and NYY NYK and NYJ voted for tex and padres son and 5+7 dynasty voted for a-gon. all of those people except 5+7 dynasty have a vote in this. so i should have 8 becasue it didnt get merged into this

This is the exact same thread. Its not a new one. If 5+7 voted, then it would be on here. If he wants to vote again, then tell him to vote again, but dont make up excuses about the vote count since its not even close. Half of the people who voted for AGon are Red Sox fans, and/or blatent Yankee haters, so you wanna talk about ******** numbers? It should be like 16-2 then because we ALL know those people didnt look at the stats.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 05:14 PM
what are you smoking? we're talking about a division with guys like Lincecum Webb Haren Cain Billingsley Lowe and Francis(was great in 07)
it is filled with great pitchers which basically helps my argument. thanks RGR.

Lol. How long has Lincecum Haren Cain and Billingsley been in the league?

#27in2007
02-19-2009, 05:20 PM
numbers aside I think that the only real way to settle this arguement would be to ask John Henry which guy he would be willing to spend $170million on.... i have to admit the Red Sox know what they are doing... which makes getting Teixeira so much sweeter.... I am pretty sure that the John Henry wouldn't have tried to break the bank for A-Gone...

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 05:20 PM
If you doubled A-Gone's road numbers he would have hit .308/.368/.578 with 44 home runs and 140 RBI.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 05:22 PM
numbers aside I think that the only real way to settle this arguement would be to ask John Henry which guy he would be willing to spend $170million on.... i have to admit the Red Sox know what they are doing... which makes getting Teixeira so much sweeter.... I am pretty sure that the John Henry wouldn't have tried to break the bank for A-Gone...

I'm pretty sure the Red Sox weren't willing to break the bank for Tex either so I guess he must not be good.

Joba Rules!!
02-19-2009, 05:25 PM
if you've checked almost all padres have big changes in their numbers from when they play on the road to when they play at home. that is a big factor is a-gon's numbers

Since you refuse to stop using the same excuse look at the park-adjusted numbers like the 134 OPS+ to 124 OPS+ or the wOBA* that RGR posted.

Better offensively, better defensively, better track record...just give up man almost everyone thinks the same way.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 05:26 PM
I'm pretty sure the Red Sox weren't willing to break the bank for Tex either so I guess he must not be good.

lol, are you dellusional? The Red Sox MADE an offer. They just got caught when they tried to play Boras for a fool (not that he isnt one)

#27in2007
02-19-2009, 05:27 PM
I'm pretty sure the Red Sox weren't willing to break the bank for Tex either so I guess he must not be good.

you missed my point... the red sox were willing to go 7-8years and 170million dollars for Teix, but I am pretty sure they wouldn't do the same for A-Gone... so, please, take your time to read my post more clearly next time.

#27in2007
02-19-2009, 05:30 PM
If you doubled A-Gone's road numbers he would have hit .308/.368/.578 with 44 home runs and 140 RBI.

and if the queen had nuts she would be king...

you are creating hypothetical stats that don't exist... well, if you take Mark's numbers in which he was an angel, and prorated them over the course of a season, then he might have one of the best season's in modern history... can you see how uneffective creating hypothetical prorated stats is? its not reality....

nygiants242
02-19-2009, 05:42 PM
Gonzo for sure.. frankly Tex is just overrated to me

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 05:42 PM
lol, are you dellusional? The Red Sox MADE an offer. They just got caught when they tried to play Boras for a fool (not that he isnt one)

The Orioles made an offer too, does that mean they broke the bank? Obviously not. There's nothing delusional about saying the Red Sox didn't break the bank for Tex. They set a price on Tex and didn't go beyond it.

Adalbjorg
02-19-2009, 05:45 PM
and if the queen had nuts she would be king...

you are creating hypothetical stats that don't exist... well, if you take Mark's numbers in which he was an angel, and prorated them over the course of a season, then he might have one of the best season's in modern history... can you see how uneffective creating hypothetical prorated stats is? its not reality....

All I did was show how well he hits away from PETCO. Calm down there killer.

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 05:46 PM
Gonzo for sure.. frankly Tex is just overrated to me

In what sense?

And can you provide where Gonzo is better exactly?


The Orioles made an offer too, does that mean they broke the bank? Obviously not. There's nothing delusional about saying the Red Sox didn't break the bank for Tex. They set a price on Tex and didn't go beyond it.

you said the Red Sox werent WILLING to break the bank. And making an offer of 170M pretty much says they were WILLING to break the bank

Rylinkus
02-19-2009, 06:14 PM
This thread is as pointless as most :sigh:

Boston was willing to pay and arm and a leg for Tex. They obviously wanted him badly. There were incentives that would have made him more in Boston than in NY. :shrug:

And Teixeira is a better player than Gonzalez. Nothing against AG, Teixiera is just a tad better.

Dburch1102
02-19-2009, 06:15 PM
Teixeira to spite the homers

Dburch1102
02-19-2009, 06:18 PM
24-9.. hope you like your new sig

bloodhawk
02-19-2009, 06:19 PM
I'm pretty sure the Red Sox weren't willing to break the bank for Tex either so I guess he must not be good.

yeah they also gave up on a 1B in the 1999 draft...this guy fell to the 493 (i think) over all pick in the 14th round or so...he was def not that good in the eyes of Boston...

Pujols...I guess he is still a bit overrated since he doesn't play in Fenway...

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 06:28 PM
Not one person arguing for Gonzo has put up a LEGIT stat that proves he is better than Teixeira

Rylinkus
02-19-2009, 06:29 PM
I only argue with hearsay, conjecture, and lessons learned playing MLB 08: The Show

Padres Son
02-19-2009, 07:30 PM
Not one person arguing for Gonzo has put up a LEGIT stat that proves he is better than TeixeiraI guess it depends on specifically what the question is asking... if the question is "who's put up the better numbers in their career so far?" I'd choose Tex.

But if you're asking, "Who would you rather have on your team right now?" I'd choose Gonzo. Gonzo is two years younger and his numbers are still on an upward trend while Tex's have leveled off over the past four seasons.

nygiants242
02-19-2009, 07:31 PM
Great point

Sabres39
02-19-2009, 07:55 PM
Hmm, Mark Teixeira has a career 134 OPS+. Adrian Gonzalez's career year so far was 2008, and in that year, he posted a 138 OPS+. Then, if you look at career wOBA* and wOBA+, Gonzalez has a .346 wOBA* and a 118 wOBA+ in five seasons. Compare that to Teixeira's career .403 wOBA* and 118 wOBA+ in eight seasons. Both of these stats are adjusted mind you. Who is the best 1B again? That's not even including defensive ability, where Teixeira clearly wins over Gonzalez.

Sabres39
02-19-2009, 07:57 PM
I guess it depends on specifically what the question is asking... if the question is "who's put up the better numbers in their career so far?" I'd choose Tex.

But if you're asking, "Who would you rather have on your team right now?" I'd choose Gonzo. Gonzo is two years younger and his numbers are still on an upward trend while Tex's have leveled off over the past four seasons.

Teixeira is coming off the best season of his career, and just entered his prime last year at the age of 28. I think it is safe to say that he will have an even better year this year hitting ahead or behind of A-Rod this season. The guy hasn't leveled off at all, the way I see it, the best is still to come.

Padres Son
02-19-2009, 08:21 PM
Teixeira is coming off the best season of his career, and just entered his prime last year at the age of 28. I think it is safe to say that he will have an even better year this year hitting ahead or behind of A-Rod this season. The guy hasn't leveled off at all, the way I see it, the best is still to come.
Better than 2005? You sure about that?


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2005 25 TEX AL 162 644 112 194 41 3 43 144 4 0 72 124 .301 .379 .575 144 370 0 3 5 11 18 SS,MVP-7,AS
2008 28 TOT 157 574 102 177 41 0 33 121 2 0 97 93 .308 .410 .552 151 317 0 7 13 7 17


You don't see a more obvious upward trend in Adrian's numbers?

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
2006 24 SDP NL 156 570 83 173 38 1 24 82 0 1 52 113 .304 .362 .500 127 285 1 5 9 3 24
2007 25 SDP NL 161 646 101 182 46 3 30 100 0 0 65 140 .282 .347 .502 125 324 0 6 9 3 6 MVP-20
2008 26 SDP NL 162 616 103 172 32 1 36 119 0 0 74 142 .279 .361 .510 138 314 0 3 18 7 24 MVP-18,AS

Padres Son
02-19-2009, 08:24 PM
Hmm, Mark Teixeira has a career 134 OPS+. Adrian Gonzalez's career year so far was 2008, and in that year, he posted a 138 OPS+. Then, if you look at career wOBA* and wOBA+, Gonzalez has a .346 wOBA* and a 118 wOBA+ in five seasons. Compare that to Teixeira's career .403 wOBA* and 118 wOBA+ in eight seasons. Both of these stats are adjusted mind you. Who is the best 1B again? That's not even including defensive ability, where Teixeira clearly wins over Gonzalez.Oh, clearly. Gonzo won a Gold Glove because the voters liked the way he does his hair. Everyone knows that.

Sabres39
02-19-2009, 08:28 PM
Better than 2005? You sure about that?


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2005 25 TEX AL 162 644 112 194 41 3 43 144 4 0 72 124 .301 .379 .575 144 370 0 3 5 11 18 SS,MVP-7,AS
2008 28 TOT 157 574 102 177 41 0 33 121 2 0 97 93 .308 .410 .552 151 317 0 7 13 7 17


You don't see a more obvious upward trend in Adrian's numbers?

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
2006 24 SDP NL 156 570 83 173 38 1 24 82 0 1 52 113 .304 .362 .500 127 285 1 5 9 3 24
2007 25 SDP NL 161 646 101 182 46 3 30 100 0 0 65 140 .282 .347 .502 125 324 0 6 9 3 6 MVP-20
2008 26 SDP NL 162 616 103 172 32 1 36 119 0 0 74 142 .279 .361 .510 138 314 0 3 18 7 24 MVP-18,AS

Let's compare the seasons:

2005: .379 OBP 144 OPS+ .405 wOBA* 119 wOBA+
2008: .410 OBP 151 OPS+ .431 wOBA* 128 wOBA+

Yes, I will definitely take his 2007 and 2008 seasons over his 2005 any day of the week.

Sabres39
02-19-2009, 08:33 PM
Oh, clearly. Gonzo won a Gold Glove because the voters liked the way he does his hair. Everyone knows that.

Derek Jeter has won three career GG, does that make him a great fielder? Nate Mclouth was the worst fielding CF in the league last year, yet he won the GG. Don't tell me that a GG means anything nowadays.

According to the fielding bible, Mark Teixeira was the best fielding 1B in the league last year. Adrian Gonzalez wasn't even on the list. Even if you look at his fielding since 2006, Teix is still the sixth best fielding 1B in the league, where as Gonzalez is still no where to be found.

http://www.fieldingbible.com/

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 08:34 PM
Oh, clearly. Gonzo won a Gold Glove because the voters liked the way he does his hair. Everyone knows that.

Derek Jeter won a Gold Glove last year

/short rant

Padres Son
02-19-2009, 08:36 PM
Let's compare the seasons:

2005: .379 OBP 144 OPS+ .405 wOBA* 119 wOBA+
2008: .410 OBP 151 OPS+ .431 wOBA* 128 wOBA+

Yes, I will definitely take his 2007 and 2008 seasons over his 2005 any day of the week.Well, your cherry-picked stats have proven me wrong.

C'mon man, you honestly believe that Tex has more untapped potential than Gonzo? Tex has already put up 6 huge seasons. Gonzo has only played 3 seasons and has dramatically improved in each of them. Add to that the fact that Gonzo is two years younger and you're honestly going to tell me that you expect Tex to show more growth than Gonzalez in the coming years?

Joba Rules!!
02-19-2009, 08:37 PM
Better than 2005? You sure about that?


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2005 25 TEX AL 162 644 112 194 41 3 43 144 4 0 72 124 .301 .379 .575 144 370 0 3 5 11 18 SS,MVP-7,AS
2008 28 TOT 157 574 102 177 41 0 33 121 2 0 97 93 .308 .410 .552 151 317 0 7 13 7 17


You don't see a more obvious upward trend in Adrian's numbers?

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
2006 24 SDP NL 156 570 83 173 38 1 24 82 0 1 52 113 .304 .362 .500 127 285 1 5 9 3 24
2007 25 SDP NL 161 646 101 182 46 3 30 100 0 0 65 140 .282 .347 .502 125 324 0 6 9 3 6 MVP-20
2008 26 SDP NL 162 616 103 172 32 1 36 119 0 0 74 142 .279 .361 .510 138 314 0 3 18 7 24 MVP-18,AS

Classic example of someone just looking at RBI and home runs...

Tragedy
02-19-2009, 08:38 PM
If you doubled A-Gone's road numbers he would have hit .308/.368/.578 with 44 home runs and 140 RBI.
And if you multipled Tex's 6/22/08 numbers by 162, he would have had the greatest season ever. Could have, would have, should have. That's nonsense.

Sportfan
02-19-2009, 08:41 PM
And if you multipled Tex's 6/22/08 numbers by 162, he would have had the greatest season ever. Could have, would have, should have. That's nonsense.

yea but that is a much smaller sample size than a-gon's road stats which is 81 games

someone can close this though. a-gon lost already

Sabres39
02-19-2009, 08:43 PM
Well, your cherry-picked stats have proven me wrong.

C'mon man, you honestly believe that Tex has more untapped potential than Gonzo? Tex has already put up 6 huge seasons. Gonzo has only played 3 seasons and has dramatically improved in each of them. Add to that the fact that Gonzo is two years younger and you're honestly going to tell me that you expect Tex to show more growth than Gonzalez in the coming years?

Cherry picked stats? I only showed the stats that are important. Don't tell me you are going to base a season on HR and RBI's? Come on.

I don't care about untapped potential. Cano has more potential than Pedroia, yet is he the better 2B? The answer is no.

The fact is that Gonzalez has not improved in each of the past three seasons, in fact they have been remarkably similar. Another fact is that Teixeira's career averages are about the same as Gonzalez's best year so far, 2008.

Just face the facts, Teixeira is the better overall 1B right now. Will he be in a few years? Who knows. But right now Teixeira is the better overall 1B.

Padres Son
02-19-2009, 08:45 PM
Derek Jeter has won three career GG, does that make him a great fielder? Nate Mclouth was the worst fielding CF in the league last year, yet he won the GG. Don't tell me that a GG means anything nowadays.

According to the fielding bible, Mark Teixeira was the best fielding 1B in the league last year. Adrian Gonzalez wasn't even on the list. Even if you look at his fielding since 2006, Teix is still the sixth best fielding 1B in the league, where as Gonzalez is still no where to be found.

http://www.fieldingbible.com/The site doesn't work... so I'll take your word for it.

Jeter won the award because he was the most popular Yankee and was a pretty good fielder. Padres players don't get awards because of popularity and media attention. Sometimes it seems like the media isn't aware that San Diego has a team.

I know that Tex is a great fielder. I'm not even making the argument that Gonzalez is better than him. But you said, "That's not even including defensive ability, where Teixeira clearly wins over Gonzalez."

Texiera does NOT clearly win over Gonzalez. If you wanna argue that he's a better fielder, fine. But it's not by a wide margin. Gonzalez is a very, very good defensive 1B and he didn't win the Gold Glove for nothing, like you make it sound.

Padres Son
02-19-2009, 08:50 PM
Cherry picked stats? I only showed the stats that are important. Don't tell me you are going to base a season on HR and RBI's? Come on.

I don't care about untapped potential. Cano has more potential than Pedroia, yet is he the better 2B? The answer is no.

The fact is that Gonzalez has not improved in each of the past three seasons, in fact they have been remarkably similar. Another fact is that Teixeira's career averages are about the same as Gonzalez's best year so far, 2008.

Just face the facts, Teixeira is the better overall 1B right now. Will he be in a few years? Who knows. But right now Teixeira is the better overall 1B.Exactly. Like I said in my other post... if the question is "Who has been the better player so far?" -- I'd choose Texiera. But if the question is "Who would you rather have on your team right now?" -- I'd choose Gonzo.

Sabres39
02-19-2009, 08:53 PM
Exactly. Like I said in my other post... if the question is "Who has been the better player so far?" -- I'd choose Texiera. But if the question is "Who would you rather have on your team right now?" -- I'd choose Gonzo.

So why did you and the rest of the people vote for Gonzalez when you just clearly agreed with me that Teixeira is the better 1B right now?

Gigantes4Life
02-19-2009, 10:10 PM
Better than 2005? You sure about that?


Yes. This was Teixeira's best season by far - offensively and defensively (with the exception of 2003).

49.5 batting RAA as opposed to 40.4 in 2005, 9.4 UZR as opposed to -1.6 in 2005.

BLooDShoT_GrK
02-19-2009, 10:31 PM
Texeira not only for his offense but his defense

Dburch1102
02-19-2009, 11:07 PM
I got an idea... all Boston fans get off of Mark Teixeira's dick?

Run Gardner Run
02-19-2009, 11:14 PM
Heres where Teixeira ranks

On the Red Sox

Best 1st baseman in the league



On the Yankees

ehh, maybe top 5 first baseman

Dburch1102
02-19-2009, 11:18 PM
Pujols
Berkman
AGon
Youkilis
Teix/Lowell/Ortiz?

Padres Son
02-20-2009, 12:13 AM
So why did you and the rest of the people vote for Gonzalez when you just clearly agreed with me that Teixeira is the better 1B right now?Hey, I admitted in my first post that it was a homer vote. :)

I'm the wrong person to ask about this. I'm a lifelong Red Sox fan and an adopted Padres fan when I moved here 6 years ago. So, not only do I like the Padres, but I hate the Yankees... of course I'm voting for A-Gon.

MelkyNYY
02-20-2009, 09:53 PM
The last three Years Mark Teixeira had the second highest OPS+ of any 1B in the league....to Albert ****ing Pujols.

Tack on some Gold Glove defense and he clearly is the second best 1B in the league. Arguing otherwise is silly.

Sabres39
02-20-2009, 10:06 PM
Teixeira wouldn't be that high (or low) in either list. Stop crying, seriously.

It's clearly Pujols #1. Then I'd probably take Berkman only ahead of Tex.

Tex had the greatest season of his career last year, I doubt we see that type of production again.

The guy is going to be 29 this season, I think, so he is still in his prime. Then, when you add in the fact that he is batting in front of A-Rod and Matsui this year, I think we will see a career year from Teixeira.

Gigantes4Life
02-20-2009, 10:09 PM
The guy is going to be 29 this season, I think, so he is still in his prime. Then, when you add in the fact that he is batting in front of A-Rod and Matsui this year, I think we will see a career year from Teixeira.

I don't care if he's 29. When he was 26 and 27, he didn't produce like last year.

Sabres39
02-21-2009, 11:45 AM
I don't care if he's 29. When he was 26 and 27, he didn't produce like last year.

Way to ignore the rest of my post. You can't deny the fact that Teixeira has never hit in front of a hitter like A-Rod, let alone be on a team with one. The fact that he is 29 indicates to me that he is still well within his prime, and is going to have one of his best years, if not the best years of his career.

Gigantes4Life
02-21-2009, 01:00 PM
There's nothing to suggest that the hitters around you affect your offensive contributions.

Sabres39
02-22-2009, 10:17 PM
There's nothing to suggest that the hitters around you affect your offensive contributions.

While there may be no statistical evidence, to my knowledge, I do know of some evidence on the Yankees. Just look at A-Rod in 2005 and 2007, two of his best seasons. In both of those seasons, Matsui was healthy, and hitting behind him. In 2006 and 2008, Matsui was injured, and A-Rod had subpar seasons compared to his other seasons.

Gigantes4Life
02-23-2009, 11:05 PM
While there may be no statistical evidence, to my knowledge, I do know of some evidence on the Yankees. Just look at A-Rod in 2005 and 2007, two of his best seasons. In both of those seasons, Matsui was healthy, and hitting behind him. In 2006 and 2008, Matsui was injured, and A-Rod had subpar seasons compared to his other seasons.

That's not enough proof.

bcransom
02-24-2009, 12:15 AM
Aydreein Gunzoliz oveeusly...de baenkeez suk d00d. der n00bs!!

bcransom
02-24-2009, 12:16 AM
That's not enough proof.

Yeah, it's called Andre Ethier and Jeff Kent when hitting in front of Manny. Solid gold proof.

CY24
02-24-2009, 12:41 AM
Ethier was a league average player before Manny...and will go back to being one without him

iangallagher29
02-24-2009, 09:43 AM
i like tex.

metsbulls1025
02-25-2009, 04:39 AM
Why do people compare players when they are almost 5 full season of service apart.

Kyle916
02-25-2009, 06:43 AM
Why do people compare players when they are almost 5 full season of service apart.

Because they can...

metsbulls1025
02-25-2009, 07:08 PM
Because they can...

I hear ya but its so obvious. Especially when for 2 years Tex was blocking Gonzo in Texas. Tex and Berkman is a fair comparison. Not this.

bartoron
02-25-2009, 07:22 PM
There's nothing to suggest that the hitters around you affect your offensive contributions.

In some ways, they actually do. The more runners on base when you step up to the plate, the more RBIs you can get. Not only that, but if the team as a whole gets more hits, an individual player gets more at-bats. More at-bats means more opportunities to hit HRs.

Other than that, you are correct. :p

yankees65
02-26-2009, 01:01 AM
mark teixeira

cambovenzi
02-26-2009, 01:35 AM
In some ways, they actually do. The more runners on base when you step up to the plate, the more RBIs you can get. Not only that, but if the team as a whole gets more hits, an individual player gets more at-bats. More at-bats means more opportunities to hit HRs.

Other than that, you are correct. :p

adding on to that, more about situational hitting.
teams will often be forced to pitch to you if there are runners on, or if there is a massive power hitter/great hitter behind you. that can mean more easily hittable balls.

Grecs422
03-07-2009, 01:42 PM
Aydreein Gunzoliz oveeusly...de baenkeez suk d00d. der n00bs!!

is that English?

Old Sweater
03-07-2009, 03:56 PM
Mark Teixeira OPS+ - 151

Adrian Gonzalez OPS+ - 138

-----------------

Even though OPS+ is park adjusted you really can't take it as bible. OPS+ will give you a fair idea as most metrics but you can't really know how well Adrian would have done in the hitters paradise of the Ball Park at Arlington, unless he played there.

Then you got to consider the mental funk that PETCO can do to a hitter and wonder if Teixeira could have coped with it as well as Adrian.

This is your brian

This is your brian on PETCO(factor)

Seamhead
03-07-2009, 04:02 PM
Mark Teixeira OPS+ - 151

Adrian Gonzalez OPS+ - 138

-----------------

Even though OPS+ is park adjusted you really can't take it as bible. OPS+ will give you a fair idea as most metrics but you can't really know how well Adrian would have done in the hitters paradise of the Ball Park at Arlington, unless he played there.

Then you got to consider the mental funk that PETCO can do to a hitter and wonder if Teixeira could have coped with it as well as Adrian.

This is your brian

This is your brian on PETCO(factor)

That's not the point of park factors. It's not to try and say what a hitter would have done in X ball park. Park factors put a hitters performance in his own park into a neutral context.

Old Sweater
03-07-2009, 04:25 PM
That's not the point of park factors. It's not to try and say what a hitter would have done in X ball park. Park factors put a hitters performance in his own park into a neutral context.


Yeah but OPS+ don't show how Adrian actually would have done at Texas or how Teixeira would have done at PETCO. It just shows what you just stated.


PETCO can really put a mental funk on a individual hitter that OPS+ or any other metric can't account for. You always have to consider "human factor" to go with any stat you use for a gauge.

If Teixeira and Adrian played in exactly each others footsteps through out their careers it could very well be that Adrian would have a 13 point lead in OPS+ or any of the other metrics.

Twitchy
03-07-2009, 04:31 PM
If Teixeira and Adrian played in exactly each others footsteps through out their careers it could very well be that Adrian would have a 13 point lead in OPS+ or any of the other metrics.

That might explain the power, but it wouldn't explain the OBP. Tex has had better discipline over his career (88 point difference between OBP and BA) compared too Gonzo (67). If you think career isn't fair to Adrian, Gonzo had a 82 point difference last year, but Tex was 102.

Plus, Tex hit well when he was an Angel, he had a 658 slugging. Small sample size, but that's not exactly a hitters park either.

Adrian Gonzalez is a very underrated player, but Tex outclasses him.

Seamhead
03-07-2009, 06:01 PM
Yeah but OPS+ don't show how Adrian actually would have done at Texas or how Teixeira would have done at PETCO. It just shows what you just stated.

We don't care about that. We're simply trying to put their performances into context.



PETCO can really put a mental funk on a individual hitter that OPS+ or any other metric can't account for. You always have to consider "human factor" to go with any stat you use for a gauge.

If Teixeira and Adrian played in exactly each others footsteps through out their careers it could very well be that Adrian would have a 13 point lead in OPS+ or any of the other metrics.

I don't quite understand how park-adjusted metrics can't account for this mental funk if it does indeed affect the player's performance. If it does affect their numbers, then OPS+ does quantify it. If it affect everyone that plays at PETCO, then it's also taking into account with the park averages. Are you referring to something like the Coors effect?

vick27m
03-09-2009, 07:30 PM
it has to be gonzo hes in a pitchers park and he still put up 36 or 37 homers last year and hes younger

NJBASEBALL22
03-24-2009, 11:00 AM
Tex

NoQuarter
03-24-2009, 12:16 PM
I'll take Teixeira.

Big_T
03-24-2009, 03:15 PM
tex

Sportfan
10-22-2009, 07:04 AM
HA! So much for Tex being the better player. Look who called it here first in ST :cool:

Gonzalez OPS+ 168
Tex- OPS+ 146

Gonzalez HR (in petco) 40
Tex HR - 39

Gonzalez wOBA - 414
Tex wOBA 407

Gonzalez OPS - 958
Tex OPS 948

bagwell368
10-22-2009, 07:33 AM
Adrian had a breakout year. He's younger. Going forward for the next 8 years, I'll take Adrian.

Padres Son
10-22-2009, 11:47 AM
There are a couple things that Adrian doesn't do as well as Tex: have ridiculously talented teammates, and have his team on SportsCenter every night.

DieHardColtsfan
10-23-2009, 12:08 AM
Tex... Although Adrian's value is hidden in San Deigo.

Matt-the-great
10-23-2009, 05:21 AM
i take it contract doesn't come into play here....

did you guys know that A-Gon is only making around 10 million over the next 2 years...while Tex is around 40 million...

2009 stats:

Tex: .292/.383/.565 - .402 wOBA - 43 doubles, 39 homeruns

A-Gon: .277/.407/.551 - .402 wOBA - 27 doubles, 40 homeruns

- pretty damn close...except when you consider that Yankee Stadium was one of the 5 friendliest hitters parks (i am assuming that, i did not research it), while PETCO would be it's usual bottom 3 hitters park. (again, another assumption)

NCBoSoxfan21
10-23-2009, 10:53 AM
Adrian.

Kenny Krew
10-23-2009, 01:01 PM
i take it contract doesn't come into play here....

did you guys know that A-Gon is only making around 10 million over the next 2 years...while Tex is around 40 million...

2009 stats:

Tex: .292/.383/.565 - .402 wOBA - 43 doubles, 39 homeruns

A-Gon: .277/.407/.551 - .402 wOBA - 27 doubles, 40 homeruns

- pretty damn close...except when you consider that Yankee Stadium was one of the 5 friendliest hitters parks (i am assuming that, i did not research it), while PETCO would be it's usual bottom 3 hitters park. (again, another assumption)

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

Hm...

C1Bman88
10-23-2009, 01:53 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

Hm...

ESPN's park factors are kinda shady. When you're working with one-year park factors, it's better to regress it than to use it at face value.



pretty damn close...except when you consider that Yankee Stadium was one of the 5 friendliest hitters parks (i am assuming that, i did not research it), while PETCO would be it's usual bottom 3 hitters park. (again, another assumption)

One-year, regressed park factors-

SD
Runs: 0.85
HR: 0.84

NYY
Runs: 0.98
HR: 1.15

The new Yankee stadium didn't play as a hitter's park in terms of runs scored, but it did in terms of home runs. We can "estimate" that in a neutral park (remember, this is an estimate, not based on hit location data!) that Teixeira would have 34 HR and Gonzalez would have 47.

FriarFanatic
10-23-2009, 06:06 PM
Gonzo is better both offensively and defensively than Tex

Kenny Krew
10-23-2009, 06:54 PM
ESPN's park factors are kinda shady. When you're working with one-year park factors, it's better to regress it than to use it at face value.


For some reason I thought they did it for a 3 year period. My bad.

Kenny Krew
10-23-2009, 06:57 PM
Gonzo is better both offensively and defensively than Tex

This is wrong. Gonzalez besides this year hasn't been a great defender. Either he just didn't produce on D until this year, or it is a fluke. UZR also doesn't include scoops and overall catching throws at 1st base. Based on reputation only (I don't believe this stat exists), Tex is one of the best 1st basemen in this facet.

bagwell368
10-23-2009, 07:44 PM
This is wrong. Gonzalez besides this year hasn't been a great defender. Either he just didn't produce on D until this year, or it is a fluke. UZR also doesn't include scoops and overall catching throws at 1st base. Based on reputation only (I don't believe this stat exists), Tex is one of the best 1st basemen in this facet.

Not so fast, AG was a fine defender this year, and a better one in 2006 according to UZR. He won a GG in '08 which may not have been deserved. Overall he is a bit over average.

Tex had fine fielding years in '05 and '08, and somehow won a GG in '06 which he didn't deserve.

Overall according to Rate they are even and to UZR AG is slightly ahead.

Overall:

Adrian's WAR this year was 6.4 - Tex was 5.2

Adrian is 25 months younger, and much lower paid. He wins going forward at this point.

Kenny Krew
10-23-2009, 07:50 PM
Not so fast, AG was a fine defender this year, and a better one in 2006 according to UZR. He won a GG in '08 which may not have been deserved. Overall he is a bit over average.

Tex had fine fielding years in '05 and '08, and somehow won a GG in '06 which he didn't deserve.

Overall according to Rate they are even and to UZR AG is slightly ahead.

Overall:

Adrian's WAR this year was 6.4 - Tex was 5.2

Adrian is 25 months younger, and much lower paid. He wins going forward at this point.

UZR for 1st basemen isn't important as it is for other positions. It's hard to judge D based on a position where range isn't all too important.

C1Bman88
10-23-2009, 08:42 PM
For some reason I thought they did it for a 3 year period. My bad.

Even if they did, their factors aren't calculated as well as they could be. It's better to compare home context to league context, not home to road for the individual team.


This is wrong. Gonzalez besides this year hasn't been a great defender. Either he just didn't produce on D until this year, or it is a fluke. UZR also doesn't include scoops and overall catching throws at 1st base. Based on reputation only (I don't believe this stat exists), Tex is one of the best 1st basemen in this facet.

The Fans' Scouting Report (http://www.tangotiger.net/scout/index6.php?sortid=13&prim_fld_cd=3) likes Teixeria, but Gonzalez apparently is better at preventing errant throws.

I was in talks with BIS to purchase some data of theirs that would give me the information to track first baseman's glovework around the bag. Let's just say the price tag is far too high for a starving college student.


UZR for 1st basemen isn't important as it is for other positions. It's hard to judge D based on a position where range isn't all too important.

I agree with you in part- it's hard to judge first baseman defense because of the limited amount of opportunities they have. You don't judge a player based on 281 AB; so you shouldn't judge a first baseman on 281 chances afield. Anything can happen in that span of time. And when you introduce so many "buckets" like UZR or Plus/Minus does, you're looking at even more room for error.

I've been saying this a lot recently, and I'll say it again: defensive statistics measure value and not ability. Just because Gonzalez provided good value with the glove this year does not mean that he's a great defender. And just because Teixeira didn't provide as much value as the average first baseman this year does not mean that he's a poor defender.

The part of your post that I greatly disagree with is the premise that range isn't important at first base. Range is very important, no matter what position you play.

Zmaster52
10-23-2009, 08:48 PM
tex is better overall, gonzo might be better defensively

NCBoSoxfan21
10-23-2009, 09:45 PM
Put Gonzo is Fenway next year and a show will ensue. Gonzo still jams 40HRs in PETCO,Tex hit 40 in the new Yankee stadium which is now a hitter's paradise; Gonzalez is the superior player. Not to mention better because he makes crackerjacks compared to Tex.

bagwell368
10-23-2009, 10:30 PM
UZR for 1st basemen isn't important as it is for other positions. It's hard to judge D based on a position where range isn't all too important.

Which is why I brought up the "Rate" stat which can be found on Prospectus. According to that, they are both 102's - meaning they are 2% above average.

bagwell368
10-23-2009, 10:34 PM
Put Gonzo is Fenway next year and a show will ensue. Gonzo still jams 40HRs in PETCO,Tex hit 40 in the new Yankee stadium which is now a hitter's paradise; Gonzalez is the superior player. Not to mention better because he makes crackerjacks compared to Tex.

I want Gonzo as you know, and I like him over Tex going forward especially with money factored in.

However, unless he alters his swing in Fenway, he's going to hit a lot of deep balls to the 380 mark on the bullpen. His typical season should be 34-44 range, he could nail a 48-50 season at some point, but I see more years under 40 then over 40 - a nit to be sure.

Kenny Krew
10-23-2009, 11:04 PM
The part of your post that I greatly disagree with is the premise that range isn't important at first base. Range is very important, no matter what position you play.

I meant my statement in comparison to other positions in the infield. Tex has 1,222 putouts this year to 49 assists. Jeter has 206 putouts to 304 assists.

Kenny Krew
10-23-2009, 11:07 PM
Which is why I brought up the "Rate" stat which can be found on Prospectus. According to that, they are both 102's - meaning they are 2% above average.

Can you explain rate?

bagwell368
10-23-2009, 11:11 PM
Can you explain rate?

My bad, its "runs" above or below a norm, not percent.

From Prospectus glossary:

A way to look at the fielder's rate of production, equal to 100 plus the number of runs above or below average this fielder is per 100 games. A player with a rate of 110 is 10 runs above average per 100 games, a player with an 87 is 13 runs below average per 100 games, etc.

Kenny Krew
10-23-2009, 11:43 PM
My bad, its "runs" above or below a norm, not percent.

From Prospectus glossary:

A way to look at the fielder's rate of production, equal to 100 plus the number of runs above or below average this fielder is per 100 games. A player with a rate of 110 is 10 runs above average per 100 games, a player with an 87 is 13 runs below average per 100 games, etc.

I saw that but what stats go into it?

yanks19791024
10-24-2009, 09:45 AM
Mark Teixeira

C1Bman88
10-24-2009, 01:22 PM
I meant my statement in comparison to other positions in the infield. Tex has 1,222 putouts this year to 49 assists. Jeter has 206 putouts to 304 assists.

I know, but that still doesn't mean that range isn't incredibly important at any infield position. It most certainly is.


Which is why I brought up the "Rate" stat which can be found on Prospectus. According to that, they are both 102's - meaning they are 2% above average.

BP's RATE scores aren't very good. None of their stuff is when it comes to defense, aside from SFR, but that's not even being published. And SFR is the same thing as Sean Smith's TotalZone. Your best bet would be to use FRAA.


I saw that but what stats go into it?

Nobody knows entirely how it's formulated- all we know is that it's most likely based on traditional statistics like PO, A, etc. Baseball Prospectus has a bad habit of keeping a lot of their formulae proprietary. I understand it's a business, but it can be terribly misleading because nobody will know if they're doing it right or wrong.

VORP, for example, was used widely by fans because it seemed to be a good, advanced metric. Except nobody knew (until a while later) that BP was using the traditional Runs Created formula to quantify offense (AB*OBP*SLG), using a high replacement level and poor positional adjustments.

Kenny Krew
10-24-2009, 04:48 PM
Nobody knows entirely how it's formulated- all we know is that it's most likely based on traditional statistics like PO, A, etc. Baseball Prospectus has a bad habit of keeping a lot of their formulae proprietary. I understand it's a business, but it can be terribly misleading because nobody will know if they're doing it right or wrong.


Exactly. There is no stat to see who is a better receiving 1st baseman. All I know is that all the infielders say they love Tex at 1st.

C1Bman88
10-24-2009, 05:24 PM
Exactly. There is no stat to see who is a better receiving 1st baseman. All I know is that all the infielders say they love Tex at 1st.

Oh, sure there is- it's called WOWY (With Or Without You), and it tracks error rates made with one particular first baseman as compared to others. It's relatively simple, but some adjustments are made to it to make it more accurate. Here's an older study done on it from 1985-2007 (http://home.comcast.net/~briankaat/1bscoop.htm). The usual suspects are at the top of the list- Helton, Olerud, Hernandez, Snow- and the guys we'd expect to be at the bottom most certainly are- Thomas, Vaughn, Delgado, etc. Teixeira was a -1.0 per 1,000 throws.

Generally speaking, you're looking at a swing of -4 to +4 runs per season based on saving errant throws. That's not particularly big, but it is worth taking into consideration.

Doing a simple calculation of ((A 3b+A ss)/(A 3b+A ss+E 3b+E ss)) tells you that Tex was +3 throws saved, which translates to +2 runs. Gonzo was a -2.8. So if you want to use that BASIC interpretation, you can add that to "range."

Mark Teixeira: -0.7
Adrian Gonzalez: +1.5

Kenny Krew
10-24-2009, 06:34 PM
Oh, sure there is- it's called WOWY (With Or Without You), and it tracks error rates made with one particular first baseman as compared to others. It's relatively simple, but some adjustments are made to it to make it more accurate. Here's an older study done on it from 1985-2007 (http://home.comcast.net/~briankaat/1bscoop.htm). The usual suspects are at the top of the list- Helton, Olerud, Hernandez, Snow- and the guys we'd expect to be at the bottom most certainly are- Thomas, Vaughn, Delgado, etc. Teixeira was a -1.0 per 1,000 throws.

How is it adjusted? This stat wouldn't really make sense unless the ability of the fielders were taken into account.

C1Bman88
10-24-2009, 07:15 PM
How is it adjusted? This stat wouldn't really make sense unless the ability of the fielders were taken into account.

Defensive statistics rule #1: Defensive statistics measure VALUE, not ABILITY. Ability is something you can determine over time. In the matter of defensive statistics, we're looking at the season in a vacuum.

WOWY adjusts for ballpark effects and the like. When it comes to handling throws, it's a matter of matching the first baseman with the other infielders as compared to the infielders with another first baseman. It's the same pitching staff, the same group of infielders, etc., and the only thing that MAY differ are the amount of errant throws.

Studies have been done with matched throws over the years and you're usually looking at (as I said before) a swing of -4 to +4 runs by preventing throwing errors. It's not big, but it's noticeable. So if Teixeira saved the Yankees 4 runs over an average first baseman (remember, this is compared to AVERAGE), he'd be a +1.3 first baseman in 2009.

I hope that makes sense. Kenny, I hope you're open-minded to the notion that Teixeira wasn't a godsend at first compared to the league average. I do think I understand why Yankee fans consider Tex to be a godsend at first- it's because they're accustomed to Giambi, as Tex is a 9 (!) run upgrade to him.

Kenny Krew
10-24-2009, 11:05 PM
Defensive statistics rule #1: Defensive statistics measure VALUE, not ABILITY. Ability is something you can determine over time. In the matter of defensive statistics, we're looking at the season in a vacuum.

WOWY adjusts for ballpark effects and the like. When it comes to handling throws, it's a matter of matching the first baseman with the other infielders as compared to the infielders with another first baseman. It's the same pitching staff, the same group of infielders, etc., and the only thing that MAY differ are the amount of errant throws.

Studies have been done with matched throws over the years and you're usually looking at (as I said before) a swing of -4 to +4 runs by preventing throwing errors. It's not big, but it's noticeable. So if Teixeira saved the Yankees 4 runs over an average first baseman (remember, this is compared to AVERAGE), he'd be a +1.3 first baseman in 2009.

I hope that makes sense. Kenny, I hope you're open-minded to the notion that Teixeira wasn't a godsend at first compared to the league average. I do think I understand why Yankee fans consider Tex to be a godsend at first- it's because they're accustomed to Giambi, as Tex is a 9 (!) run upgrade to him.

Thanks for the explanation, really. I'm sorry for being so argumentative but I am stubborn unless I feel like I know what's going into the fomula. I didn't realize what was being compared in the link you showed me, I thought it was a direct representation of the 1st baseman and his infielders, not anything comparing others.

As for Giambi, :facepalm:.

Thanks for the help.

C1Bman88
10-24-2009, 11:29 PM
Thanks for the explanation, really. I'm sorry for being so argumentative but I am stubborn unless I feel like I know what's going into the fomula. I didn't realize what was being compared in the link you showed me, I thought it was a direct representation of the 1st baseman and his infielders, not anything comparing others.

As for Giambi, :facepalm:.

Thanks for the help.

You're very welcome! It's always good to ask questions and challenge things- it's the best way to learn, IMO.