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reevanson
02-15-2009, 10:54 PM
I was curious of you all were starting a franchise would you rather have Bosh or Bargs?

Personally I think I would have Bargs, I know he does not have the experience that Bosh has but I really think that even though Bosh is young it seems like his game has plateaued. But I really see a lot more upside to Bargs, he grown a ton of mental toughness from the sometimes harsh T.O. fans, and we have seen Bosh's lack of ability in dealing with criticism lately. Don't get me wrong I am a huge Bosh fan, but I see Bargs a little more as a cornerstone than Bosh.

DaoudS
02-15-2009, 10:59 PM
Bosh hands down no question no doubt no nothing. Bosh. Bargs will never be remotely close to being a franchise player.

Ragun
02-15-2009, 11:03 PM
Bosh hands down no question no doubt no nothing. Bosh. Bargs will never be remotely close to being a franchise player.

i dont agree. i think Bargnani has what it takes to be a franchise player.

Seriously there has never been a player like Bargnani in the NBA. People say Dirk Nowitzki, but what 7 footer is as fast,strong, good shooting and athletic as bargnani? I really can't think of anyone.

ramz.n
02-15-2009, 11:23 PM
i dont agree. i think Bargnani has what it takes to be a franchise player.

Seriously there has never been a player like Bargnani in the NBA. People say Dirk Nowitzki, but what 7 footer is as fast,strong, good shooting and athletic as bargnani? I really can't think of anyone.

i have to agree..people think that Bosh still has potential to grow and how hes not in his prime yet..but can you really see chris bosh as more than a 24/10 guy ever?..Bargnani has so many assets, he can shot 3's, he has a midrange game on the dribble, his post up looks alot better, and he has been getting on the glass, great free throw shooter, thats hard to find in a big man..and on the defensive end.. i think i would give the edge to Bargnani not only is he bigger and as fast as any big, he block shots and he can seem to hold his own agaisnt some of the best such as Shaq, howard, sheed and Yao as opposed to bosh who would just get pushed down low.

dirtybird
02-15-2009, 11:33 PM
My pick would be Bosh and it wouldn't really be close.

dtmagnet
02-15-2009, 11:57 PM
They say Greg Oden can be a franchise player, so why not Bargnani?

DaoudS
02-16-2009, 12:02 AM
They say Greg Oden can be a franchise player, so why not Bargnani?

are you really going to compare the two?

LanceUpperCut
02-16-2009, 12:03 AM
I was curious of you all were starting a franchise would you rather have Bosh or Bargs?

Personally I think I would have Bargs, I know he does not have the experience that Bosh has but I really think that even though Bosh is young it seems like his game has plateaued. But I really see a lot more upside to Bargs, he grown a ton of mental toughness from the sometimes harsh T.O. fans, and we have seen Bosh's lack of ability in dealing with criticism lately. Don't get me wrong I am a huge Bosh fan, but I see Bargs a little more as a cornerstone than Bosh.

I love Bargn's but does everyone forget the start of the year really.I find it crazy how raptor fans have lost all faith in Bosh cause of what a slow stretch.Bosh had the best start of his career in the first 20 games then Smitch got fired and he's slowed down.Really if his teamates played better he would be better and no one would even ponder the thought.People say he is a jump shooter like it's a bad thing even if he hit's 50% of them he get's to FT way more than anyone on our team and most of the league but some how never take's it to the net.I love AB but he has a long way to go before he is even close to Bosh.

Bricklayer
02-16-2009, 12:03 AM
Bosh by a landslide, I think some people are wearing rose coloured glasses with Andrea.

LanceUpperCut
02-16-2009, 12:05 AM
are you really going to compare the two?

No I'd rather have Bargn's for sure.

dgilbert
02-16-2009, 12:06 AM
Bosh hands down. I've always said Bargs has amazing upside, and have stuck by him through his year long slump. But I still have questions about if he has finally turned the corner towards reaching that promise.

LanceUpperCut
02-16-2009, 12:08 AM
I think with Bargn's the people who hated him early on will never admit he could be great cause then of course they would be wrong.It's funny how people can't just try to look for the best in both our young studs.

DaoudS
02-16-2009, 12:16 AM
No I'd rather have Bargn's for sure.

you're serious? You wouldn't trade Bargs for Oden straight up? What is the reasoning behind that?

reevanson
02-16-2009, 12:24 AM
I love Bargn's but does everyone forget the start of the year really.I find it crazy how raptor fans have lost all faith in Bosh cause of what a slow stretch.Bosh had the best start of his career in the first 20 games then Smitch got fired and he's slowed down.Really if his teamates played better he would be better and no one would even ponder the thought.People say he is a jump shooter like it's a bad thing even if he hit's 50% of them he get's to FT way more than anyone on our team and most of the league but some how never take's it to the net.I love AB but he has a long way to go before he is even close to Bosh.

I didn't say I lost faith in Bosh, I love him, I just see much more upside to Barg's game. I don't for get how Bargs started the season but how he improved his game is one of the reasons I like him, I have not seen any improvement in Bosh's game this year and that scares me a little.

koreancabbage
02-16-2009, 12:34 AM
you're serious? You wouldn't trade Bargs for Oden straight up? What is the reasoning behind that?

well considering Oden has been injured, he is a very one dimensional player. HE IS NO WHERE CLOSE TO BEING DWIGHT HOWARD. or as dominant.

he may have been labeled as a once in a lifetime type of player, but this game is changing and you need to be multi-faceted to stay with this game.

NOW if Oden is healthy, he is very good at what he asked to do- block shots, rebound.

Bargnani is given the free will to balance the all-round game which Oden DOES not have. Bargnani has to play defense, asked to score in many ways and plays, set picks, pass the ball etc etc. Oden doesn't have/ is not asked to do, all that.

It's hard for a young player to balance the all-round game but once you figure it out, Bargnani is a helluva player, even though its painful to watch the first couple of years.

Ragun
02-16-2009, 12:34 AM
i love bosh. i know what he can do but Bargnani is such a rare mix. more than CB. you are starting to see a lot of guys with a body and intangibles like CB. No one like Bargnani.

LanceUpperCut
02-16-2009, 12:36 AM
I didn't say I lost faith in Bosh, I love him, I just see much more upside to Barg's game. I don't for get how Bargs started the season but how he improved his game is one of the reasons I like him, I have not seen any improvement in Bosh's game this year and that scares me a little.

From last year to the first 20 games for Bosh you did'nt see any improvement,I have.I truly think there's just been no one else to take the load off Bosh during their free fall so his confidence was shot and everyone jumped on him about everything.At the first of the year we were all talking about how Bosh is now with Lebron and Wade among the best,and now the same people think he's not even a franchise guy.

DaoudS
02-16-2009, 12:38 AM
well considering Oden has been injured, he is a very one dimensional player. HE IS NO WHERE CLOSE TO BEING DWIGHT HOWARD. or as dominant.

he may have been labeled as a once in a lifetime type of player, but this game is changing and you need to be multi-faceted to stay with this game.

NOW if Oden is healthy, he is very good at what he asked to do- block shots, rebound.

Bargnani is given the free will to balance the all-round game which Oden DOES not have. Bargnani has to play defense, asked to score in many ways and plays, set picks, pass the ball etc etc. Oden doesn't have/ is not asked to do, all that.

It's hard for a young player to balance the all-round game but once you figure it out, Bargnani is a helluva player, even though its painful to watch the first couple of years.

I am sorry, are you referring to Bargniani as anything but one dimensional? Anyone playing 40 minutes and jacking up 20 shots can get 20 points a night. Bargniani has an extremely weak defense and his rebounding skills are way below par.

Oden is a classic center. His low post moves, rebounding, defense all point towards the old school centers of the league. There isn't anyone like him in the game. Howard does not have the low post moves of Oden - he is just hella strong and can dominate because of his size.

I love Oden because he reminds me Ewing and was my one last hope of seeing another guy like Shaq.

ramz.n
02-16-2009, 12:39 AM
From last year to the first 20 games for Bosh you did'nt see any improvement,I have.I truly think there's just been no one else to take the load off Bosh during their free fall so his confidence was shot and everyone jumped on him about everything.At the first of the year we were all talking about how Bosh is now with Lebron and Wade among the best,and now the same people think he's not even a franchise guy.

noone is saying hes not a franchise guy..the person who started this thread pretty much was asking which would people take..its just asking for everyones opinion ..not another hate thread for bosh :p

ramz.n
02-16-2009, 12:41 AM
you're serious? You wouldn't trade Bargs for Oden straight up? What is the reasoning behind that?

i wouldn't..why on earth would you trade a player with that mix of talent for someone who is injury prone and is very raw on the offensive end, from what i've heard last Oden is again INJURED.

DaoudS
02-16-2009, 12:42 AM
i wouldn't..why on earth would you trade a player with that mix of talent for someone who is injury prone and is very raw on the offensive end, from what i've heard last Oden is again INJURED.

Oden is often injured, I know that - but I would do that trade in a heartbeat. Oden will have 5-7 solid years in the league where he will DOMINATE. Bargs might have 12 years where he is good, but he won't ever be on the level of Oden.

ramz.n
02-16-2009, 12:43 AM
Oden is often injured, I know that - but I would do that trade in a heartbeat. Oden will have 5-7 solid years in the league where he will DOMINATE. Bargs might have 12 years where he is good, but he won't ever be on the level of Oden.

maybe not on the defensive end..but you can go the other way and say..Greg Oden will not have an offensive game like Bargnani ..if ever.

clutchski
02-16-2009, 12:43 AM
As much as I love Bargs, I would go with Bosh for sure. I mean...plateaued?!?! Did you see him at the beginning of this season? That wasn't just a B. Roy, every-so-often hit 30+ points in a game, that was consistent best player in the league calibur play Bosh was giving us.

Sure, the atmosphere has changed..the situation has changed in Toronto since what we were at near the beginning of the season. But don't judge therefore that Bosh has "plateaued" and all the potential has dissipated. Do you think Lebron is plateauing at this age? What about Wade? Wade was doubted SO much last season...now look at him. Look at how he played in the Olympics.

Don't doubt Bosh. Bosh for sure.

LanceUpperCut
02-16-2009, 12:44 AM
I am sorry, are you referring to Bargniani as anything but one dimensional? Anyone playing 40 minutes and jacking up 20 shots can get 20 points a night. Bargniani has an extremely weak defense and his rebounding skills are way below par.

Oden is a classic center. His low post moves, rebounding, defense all point towards the old school centers of the league. There isn't anyone like him in the game. Howard does not have the low post moves of Oden - he is just hella strong and can dominate because of his size.

I love Oden because he reminds me Ewing and was my one last hope of seeing another guy like Shaq.

I hear that same stuff all the time and I watch the games and Bargn's is getting better defensive every game,And rebound is getting way better ,plus he has been getting better rebounds most guy's get uncontested boards raps are more of a team rebounding team maybe not great rebounding team but still.

DaoudS
02-16-2009, 12:45 AM
I fundamentally disagree that Bargniani is any where close to a franchise player of Bosh or on the level of Oden.

More shats!
02-16-2009, 12:47 AM
I say Bosh...he can get his own shat and you can throw the ball to him and he can get you a basket.Bargs has not shown me you can give him the ball and score on a iso situation and i think that is a key par of a franchise player, he dosent get double teams so he relly dosent make teamates better in that regard(But he is a great passer i think we see him make guys better once he gets better on the post).Andrea is a better Defensive player(Not by a lot in my opinion)but he is better, Bosh is relly bad on defence and all the hype after his play in the olimpics got lost on his way back from china(where he play terific defence).They are about the same age so i got to go with Bosh.

B2B
02-16-2009, 12:50 AM
If Bargnani is making 8mil & Bosh is making 20+ - I choose Bargnani

If the money factor was even - I choose Bosh

Forget Bargnani for a min. If Bosh is going to get 20mil+ I rather trade him.

ramz.n
02-16-2009, 12:52 AM
I fundamentally disagree that Bargniani is any where close to a franchise player of Bosh or on the level of Oden.

and thats your opinion..but imo i think Oden is below Bargnani..from a standpoint where health is concern and offensively, there is no doubt Oden is an elite defender...but he's very similar to Marcus Camby if not identical to Camby, he will be an excellent defender, rebounder and shot blocker but he wont be complete on the offensive end...Bargnani on the other team already has the offensive game...and he has been working on the defensive end, he has the potential to be a lights out offensive player as well as a good defensive player.

ramz.n
02-16-2009, 12:53 AM
If Bargnani is making 8mil & Bosh is making 20+ - I choose Bargnani

If the money factor was even - I choose Bosh

Forget Bargnani for a min. If Bosh is going to get 20mil+ I rather trade him.

cost shouldn't be an issue when your going to spend it on a franchise player.

LanceUpperCut
02-16-2009, 12:54 AM
I fundamentally disagree that Bargniani is any where close to a franchise player of Bosh or on the level of Oden.

I don't think he is on Bosh's level .Really with Oden and Bargn's they are so diffrent but I'm a hommer so gotta say Bargn's,and really health wise Bargn's is far and above which is really one main thing for a lengthy career as the main guy.

LanceUpperCut
02-16-2009, 01:00 AM
If Bargnani is making 8mil & Bosh is making 20+ - I choose Bargnani

If the money factor was even - I choose Bosh

Forget Bargnani for a min. If Bosh is going to get 20mil+ I rather trade him.

Trade for what ,name a better player to built around who is a possiblity.Unless you think we just have all good players but no all stars.Which I don't see any good team built like that.Find the right guy to compliment Bosh and if he does'nt produce then I would agree

The Wise 1
02-16-2009, 01:07 AM
Bosh because Andrea would struggle being a number 1 guy. I still havent seen anything to make me think he could be relied upon to carry a offense.


They say Greg Oden can be a franchise player, so why not Bargnani?

Because Andrea has no where near the athleticism that Oden has, not to mention his grasp for the game. I cant wait till next year when hes been healthy for a full year and starts to figure out the game. I really cant believe you are making a case for Andrea over Oden.

The Wise 1
02-16-2009, 01:15 AM
he may have been labeled as a once in a lifetime type of player, but this game is changing and you need to be multi-faceted to stay with this game.

NOW if Oden is healthy, he is very good at what he asked to do- block shots, rebound.

Bargnani is given the free will to balance the all-round game which Oden DOES not have. Bargnani has to play defense, asked to score in many ways and plays, set picks, pass the ball etc etc. Oden doesn't have/ is not asked to do, all that.

It's hard for a young player to balance the all-round game but once you figure it out, Bargnani is a helluva player, even though its painful to watch the first couple of years.

Saying Andrea has been asked to play defense is on the same level as you saying Oden isnt asked to score. Oden also has to set picks and is a million times better than him at that and also has to pass.


maybe not on the defensive end..but you can go the other way and say..Greg Oden will not have an offensive game like Bargnani ..if ever.

Maybe its just me but I dont want my bigmen shooting in the low 40 percent range and struggling to finish in traffic :confused: I also wouldnt be so sure about Oden on the offensive end. I think he can still be dominant on the offensive end. Just because Andrea can shoot doesnt mean he is a better offensive player than someone who does 1 thing really well.


I fundamentally disagree that Bargniani is any where close to a franchise player of Bosh or on the level of Oden.

I agree.

ink
02-16-2009, 01:16 AM
Bosh because Andrea would struggle being a number 1 guy. I still havent seen anything to make me think he could be relied upon to carry a offense.



Because Andrea has no where near the athleticism that Oden has, not to mention his grasp for the game. I cant wait till next year when hes been healthy for a full year and starts to figure out the game. I really cant believe you are making a case for Andrea over Oden.

Admit it. You secretly realize that Bargs will be MVP one day. ;)

The Wise 1
02-16-2009, 01:20 AM
Admit it. You secretly realize that Bargs will be MVP one day. ;)

I realized that in January, I am only now starting to realize his potential for multiple MVP's and his potential to go down as 1 of the top 50 because he is asked to score in a variety of ways, is asked to play defense, is asked to pass and set screens and because he can shoot 3's, drive and post up. And because hes 7 feet tall and theres no one like him also.

I guess the people who said those things dont realize that Bosh does all those things better than Andrea except for shooting 3's.

Minnellz
02-16-2009, 01:22 AM
I ADMIRE EVERY ASPECT OF BOSH'S AND BARGNANI'S SKILL SETS..BUT ALL IN ALL I THINK BARGNANI HAS THE POTENTIAL TO OUTWIT BOSH DEFENSIVELY BY THE END O' HIS CAREER:clap:

B2B
02-16-2009, 01:44 AM
cost shouldn't be an issue when your going to spend it on a franchise player.

Cost is a factor, when the player isn't worth the price.

KG, Duncan r fanchise players. Bosh is not, neither is Bargnani but Bosh is the better of the 2 at this point.

ModusOperandi
02-16-2009, 01:59 AM
cost shouldn't be an issue when your going to spend it on a franchise player.

Cost is an issue when you're in a league with a salary cap.

I would rather have 5 good players than 1 superstar and 4 average to mediocre guys; plus, you still have to worry about your bench.

B2B
02-16-2009, 02:10 AM
Trade for what ,name a better player to built around who is a possiblity.Unless you think we just have all good players but no all stars.Which I don't see any good team built like that.Find the right guy to compliment Bosh and if he does'nt produce then I would agree

If Sacremento was interested I would trade him for:

Thompson,(Griffin/Harden/Aminu),Moore,(expiring for Kapono who would be included in the deal)

Last time I checked a basketball team consist of 5 players. I'm a firm believer that the team is only as good as it's weakest link.

If a team can find holes in your team it doesn't make a difference how good your best player (Bosh) is.

ie. Kapono, from the moment he steps on the court apposing teams automatically attack him on the offensive & if he can't hold his own it doesn't make a difference how good Bosh is. (weak link)

ie. Bostons game plan is to have Rondo attack Calderon & break him down because they know he can't stay in front of his man. (weak link)

Unless you think we just have all good players but no all stars

yes

When Detroit got their first championship none considered anyone on that team a star until they actually won.

ramansingh3
02-16-2009, 02:11 AM
Bosh hands down no question no doubt no nothing. Bosh. Bargs will never be remotely close to being a franchise player.

Watch, you'll regret saying that, especially if Bosh leaves.

B2B
02-16-2009, 02:19 AM
Watch, you'll regret saying that, especially if Bosh leaves.

Why?

KingCanada
02-16-2009, 03:44 AM
Bosh never really liked Bargs

SukMyKi$$
02-16-2009, 05:44 AM
Its amazing what 30 games can do for a guy. Raptor fans thought they had a dud on their hands deep down inside. The smart ones played it cool, while the rest got impatient and blasted the guy as a huge waste of a #1.

As a Knick fan, I happen to think he's the goods, and has the skill set to be a franchise player, but Bosh is only scrathing the surface on his game as well, so please kill all the "Bargs has more upside" talk. Bosh's upside is he's gonna be a huge part of a championship team, especially if he and Lebron team up sometime soon. I also think some Raptor fans are convinced he has one foot out the door and are eating their sour grapes by suggesting Bargs can be more of a franchise type player.

kantarok
02-16-2009, 06:12 AM
Bosh Hands Down
Bargnani does not have as much potential as Bosh, thats a joke
Bargani at best is a lesser version of Dirk and (Bosh in prime>Dirk)
What cant Bosh do he gets to the line, drives, shoots, crashes boards and runs the floor and at least he tries to play defence.
Admit it Bargnani only plays good because he is playing with Bosh, it has
nothing to do with Bargnani improving. The only thing he improved is his mindset

RAPS424
02-16-2009, 06:49 AM
are u ppl insane? Bosh is a 3-4 time all star.. arguably top 3 pf in the league.. max out contract guy.. been improving his stats every single year...double double guy... teams set up defences around Bosh and he still puts up 23/9.5 ... plays his heart out every game.. loyal ..vocal.. leader...winner...inside outside game... (tho maybe a little more inside would be nice)....great foul shooter gets to the line.... is this really a question??.. i like Bargs a lot.. but he isnt even close to franchise player... he has had a stretch of good games. .. since JO went down..been playing great.. no doubt.. but Bosh has been doing it for years..consistantly... come on guys..smarten up.. this isnt even a real question...Bargs maybe one day.. but right now.. there isnt one GM in the league that would take Bargs over Bosh.. NOT ONE!!!! .. give ur heads a shake

Kaptain Kanada
02-16-2009, 09:05 AM
are u ppl insane? Bosh is a 3-4 time all star.. arguably top 3 pf in the league.. max out contract guy.. been improving his stats every single year...double double guy... teams set up defences around Bosh and he still puts up 23/9.5 ... plays his heart out every game.. loyal ..vocal.. leader...winner...inside outside game... (tho maybe a little more inside would be nice)....great foul shooter gets to the line.... is this really a question??.. i like Bargs a lot.. but he isnt even close to franchise player... he has had a stretch of good games. .. since JO went down..been playing great.. no doubt.. but Bosh has been doing it for years..consistantly... come on guys..smarten up.. this isnt even a real question...Bargs maybe one day.. but right now.. there isnt one GM in the league that would take Bargs over Bosh.. NOT ONE!!!! .. give ur heads a shake

BC might.

ramz.n
02-16-2009, 09:56 AM
are u ppl insane? Bosh is a 3-4 time all star.. arguably top 3 pf in the league.. max out contract guy.. been improving his stats every single year...double double guy... teams set up defences around Bosh and he still puts up 23/9.5 ... plays his heart out every game.. loyal ..vocal.. leader...winner...inside outside game... (tho maybe a little more inside would be nice)....great foul shooter gets to the line.... is this really a question??.. i like Bargs a lot.. but he isnt even close to franchise player... he has had a stretch of good games. .. since JO went down..been playing great.. no doubt.. but Bosh has been doing it for years..consistantly... come on guys..smarten up.. this isnt even a real question...Bargs maybe one day.. but right now.. there isnt one GM in the league that would take Bargs over Bosh.. NOT ONE!!!! .. give ur heads a shake

i believe thats what people are arguing about.

ramz.n
02-16-2009, 10:05 AM
Cost is an issue when you're in a league with a salary cap.

I would rather have 5 good players than 1 superstar and 4 average to mediocre guys; plus, you still have to worry about your bench.

yes i know that..but i meant be reasonable..no one is going to be making 30m in the NBA, similar to the season like Jordan back in the day when he signed a 1 year deal with the bulls.

reevanson
02-16-2009, 11:16 AM
I really don't think either side of this is "insane". Bosh and Bargs are both good players, each has their own skill set. As I have stated I would take Bargs because I really see a great player in the makin, one that can be almost undefendable. When Bosh matches up with a good defender they can shut his game down. I didnt start this thread for insults to be thrown out, I just want peoples opinion. As of right now I think Bosh is a better player than Bargs and as has been said defenses focus on him waaaaay more than Bargs. But the reasons I take him over Bosh is his skill set and mental toughness......Bosh has been coddled (sound like someone else that used to be a rap) Bargs has had to fight for it! Give him another season and he will be putting up all star numbers and you can quote me on that!

con_artist
02-16-2009, 12:13 PM
I'd like to see the team attempt to rebuild around Bargnani. It's likely that Bosh will leave in a few years and Bargs has shown that he can be the go-to scorer for this team

B2B
02-16-2009, 12:45 PM
yes i know that..but i meant be reasonable..no one is going to be making 30m in the NBA, similar to the season like Jordan back in the day when he signed a 1 year deal with the bulls.

That's the point though. The cap is a limit on the amount teams can spend on player contracts, which helps to maintain a competitive balance in the league. Without a salary cap, teams with deeper pockets can simply outspend the remaining teams for the better free agents. The basic idea is that a team can only sign a free agent if the total payroll for the team will not exceed the salary cap. So a team with deep pockets is playing on a level playing field with every other team.

If your not smart on how you spend your cap (like our JO experiment this year) we could end up like the Knicks over these past few years.

Is Bosh really worth 20mil? is he that game changing player like Lebron, Kobe, Garnett?.

Or is he a really good player that has room for improvement?.

I'm not ready to hand Bosh the Keys to my BMW.

Simply put would you pay Bargnani 20mil?. Why?

Some of us feel the same way about Bosh. (He's really good just not great).

dtmagnet
02-16-2009, 08:43 PM
Hey I only said that if Oden could be a franchise player so could Bargnani, I never said I would prefer Bargnani over Bosh. Hell the two of them together make a great frontcourt so we should be glad we have them both.

LD V2.0
02-16-2009, 09:05 PM
Ideally, you don't start team with either. I'm not sure if I know which to select. Bargnani can do a lot of the things Bosh can, just not on as high a level. Bargnani is the better defender and physically, he's far more imposing. Tough choice if we're not deciding based on merit alone.

pants
02-16-2009, 09:55 PM
Straight up basketball talent I go with Bosh. I love Barg's but don't think he has the inner drive to be a number 1 guy when every other team is focussed on him. Bosh can bring his game to the next level against the top defenders (except maybe KG).

If I'm building a team for Toronto though, I have to go with Bargs. Given the nature of the City, I think there is a much better chance of keeping him long term than a guy like Bosh who could be more easily drawn to large market US city. I think it is important to consider this when trying to build a franchise around a player. Look at how many times the Rap's have had to rebuild because their franchise guy left at the first chance.

Jacob K.
02-16-2009, 10:24 PM
Bosh Hands Down
Bargnani does not have as much potential as Bosh, thats a joke
Bargani at best is a lesser version of Dirk and (Bosh in prime>Dirk)
What cant Bosh do he gets to the line, drives, shoots, crashes boards and runs the floor and at least he tries to play defence.
Admit it Bargnani only plays good because he is playing with Bosh, it has
nothing to do with Bargnani improving. The only thing he improved is his mindset

see i just dont agree with that. do people rember that dirk won MVP? i just dont see bosh winning an mvp to be honest

ramz.n
02-16-2009, 10:58 PM
see i just dont agree with that. do people rember that dirk won MVP? i just dont see bosh winning an mvp to be honest

i agree with him not winning an mvp in toronto..on a high caliber team with a superstar and the load is off his back, he could possibly.

BALLER R
02-16-2009, 11:05 PM
why don't we just have both and rebuild around the two big men..get rid of everyone else if anything

The Wise 1
02-16-2009, 11:24 PM
I'd like to see the team attempt to rebuild around Bargnani. It's likely that Bosh will leave in a few years and Bargs has shown that he can be the go-to scorer for this team

No he hasnt

BALLER R
02-16-2009, 11:29 PM
its not consistent but yes he can there has been a few times when he came up with big buckets

C_Mund
02-17-2009, 12:33 AM
I agree that Bosh is a better player right now, but the difference is that Bargs will soon be impossible to defend. Bosh can score like crazy now, but he's not a good enough player to pass out of doubles which severely hurts his high post game. Soon, opposing coaches won't be able to draw up a plan to stop Bargs because he won't catch the ball at the free throw line and stand there for 17 seconds waiting for the shot clock to expire. Bosh is incredible, but I think when Andrea's skills are honed (which is coming, believe it or not) he'll be impossible to draw up a defense against. Bosh succumbs to a simple double team at the end of every close game (or one-on-one defense from Joakim Noah).

ChongInc.
02-17-2009, 01:45 AM
maybe not on the defensive end..but you can go the other way and say..Greg Oden will not have an offensive game like Bargnani ..if ever.

agreed.
when Oden makes a perfect no-look pass, makes the 3 on a regular basis, or even shows the athleticism to fake a 3 and get to the basket for a dunk so quickly that no one on the opposing team has time to get there... then ill be an Oden believer.
something tells me I'm never going to be an Oden believer

ramansingh3
02-17-2009, 02:09 AM
Why?

People keep doubting this kid. He has already showed that he can play in this league and is a better defender than Bosh. The other thing is Bargnani still has that determination to try hard, sometimes it just looks like Bosh is out of it and is in another place. Maybe its the feeling that he still has something to prove. All great players always think to themselves they have something to prove thats how they try to out perform themselves night in and night out. There is a difference between a loyal franchise player and a player out their trying to just bolt to already to a team already built and make the big bucks. Their is only a handful of players that fall into the first category and one of them is Dirk Nowitzki already stating that he would take a pay cut to add another talented player. These are the players that should be kept they are team first players and are loyal to the organization and would rather help build something, rather than going somewhere where everything is already done. Bill Russell is the number 1 team player and as a result he was rewarded with something that no individual achievement can match in the NBA, bringing that championship home over and over again into a program that you helped build. I believe Bargnani is a team player much like Dirk Nowitzki and is far more loyal than Bosh. I am not comparing Bargnani or Nowitzki to Bill Russell. I just wanted to mention what the most successful team player achieved. I expect sum disagreements with my thoughts and my opinions.

ramz.n
02-17-2009, 10:54 AM
People keep doubting this kid. He has already showed that he can play in this league and is a better defender than Bosh. The other thing is Bargnani still has that determination to try hard, sometimes it just looks like Bosh is out of it and is in another place. Maybe its the feeling that he still has something to prove. All great players always think to themselves they have something to prove thats how they try to out perform themselves night in and night out. There is a difference between a loyal franchise player and a player out their trying to just bolt to already to a team already built and make the big bucks. Their is only a handful of players that fall into the first category and one of them is Dirk Nowitzki already stating that he would take a pay cut to add another talented player. These are the players that should be kept they are team first players and are loyal to the organization and would rather help build something, rather than going somewhere where everything is already done. Bill Russell is the number 1 team player and as a result he was rewarded with something that no individual achievement can match in the NBA, bringing that championship home over and over again into a program that you helped build. I believe Bargnani is a team player much like Dirk Nowitzki and is far more loyal than Bosh. I am not comparing Bargnani or Nowitzki to Bill Russell. I just wanted to mention what the most successful team player achieved. I expect sum disagreements with my thoughts and my opinions.

i agree...When Bosh came into the league...he wasn't bashed for being such a high pick.he wasn't told to play multiple positions..he wasn't yelled at by the franchise about his play..he wasn't told to bulk up and than told to play at the sf position..he wasn't benched for Rasho and J'O...with all the criticism hes still playing through it which shows you the mental toughness he has.

The Wise 1
02-17-2009, 03:15 PM
This thread keeps getting better and better.


I agree that Bosh is a better player right now, but the difference is that Bargs will soon be impossible to defend. Bosh can score like crazy now, but he's not a good enough player to pass out of doubles which severely hurts his high post game. Soon, opposing coaches won't be able to draw up a plan to stop Bargs because he won't catch the ball at the free throw line and stand there for 17 seconds waiting for the shot clock to expire. Bosh is incredible, but I think when Andrea's skills are honed (which is coming, believe it or not) he'll be impossible to draw up a defense against. Bosh succumbs to a simple double team at the end of every close game (or one-on-one defense from Joakim Noah).


agreed.
when Oden makes a perfect no-look pass, makes the 3 on a regular basis, or even shows the athleticism to fake a 3 and get to the basket for a dunk so quickly that no one on the opposing team has time to get there... then ill be an Oden believer.
something tells me I'm never going to be an Oden believer

Do you realize Oden's athleticism ***** all over Andrea's?

The Wise 1
02-17-2009, 03:17 PM
i agree...When Bosh came into the league...he wasn't bashed for being such a high pick.he wasn't told to play multiple positions..he wasn't yelled at by the franchise about his play..he wasn't told to bulk up and than told to play at the sf position..he wasn't benched for Rasho and J'O...with all the criticism hes still playing through it which shows you the mental toughness he has.

He was forced to play C at 210 pounds, he was told to bulk up, and the only reason why he wasnt benched for players like Rasho or JO is because he didnt give management a reason to.

reevanson
02-17-2009, 03:27 PM
Do you realize Oden's athleticism ***** all over Andrea's?

That may be true but Oden being a 42 year old man he may not have to many years left in him

LanceUpperCut
02-17-2009, 03:32 PM
I didn't say I lost faith in Bosh, I love him, I just see much more upside to Barg's game. I don't for get how Bargs started the season but how he improved his game is one of the reasons I like him, I have not seen any improvement in Bosh's game this year and that scares me a little.

I messed that up I really meant does everyone forget about Bosh's start of the year.

ramz.n
02-17-2009, 03:35 PM
That may be true but Oden being a 42 year old man he may not have to many years left in him

:p

ChongInc.
02-17-2009, 08:46 PM
He was forced to play C at 210 pounds, he was told to bulk up, and the only reason why he wasnt benched for players like Rasho or JO is because he didnt give management a reason to.

he didnt bulk up at all
i see no difference in his thickness for the last 3 years

ChongInc.
02-17-2009, 08:47 PM
That may be true but Oden being a 42 year old man he may not have to many years left in him

lmao

abbazabba
02-17-2009, 09:11 PM
He was forced to play C at 210 pounds, he was told to bulk up, and the only reason why he wasnt benched for players like Rasho or JO is because he didnt give management a reason to.

I wonder if toronto not being a contender and therefore being able to allow him to play through his mistakes had anything to do with bosh not ever being benched during his early years?

Brian35
02-17-2009, 09:16 PM
Trade Bargnani to Golden State, along with Kapano and Graham for Biedrins and Monta Ellis.......

Life'sABrees
02-17-2009, 10:05 PM
No question for me it would be Bosh... Bargs has a whole world of potential but I'd like to start my franchise with someone who's young and proven... I know Bosh will give me 20/9... I hope Bargs will give me something close to that and therein lies the distinction

Kyben36
02-17-2009, 10:07 PM
I think Bosh could bulk up and may end up being an even biger threat down low. you have to admit it, Bosh is pretty scrawny for a PF. I think if he bulks up he could be a Little more Dinamic. He is still young, and I think he could be a franchise player. He has so much skill. He could be a 25-28 PPG player in his prime. Bargs could still probably be better though. If he could develop like Dirk, he could be unstopable.

Kyben36
02-17-2009, 10:13 PM
agreed.
when Oden makes a perfect no-look pass, makes the 3 on a regular basis, or even shows the athleticism to fake a 3 and get to the basket for a dunk so quickly that no one on the opposing team has time to get there... then ill be an Oden believer.
something tells me I'm never going to be an Oden believer

He is a jump shooter. Thats like Comparing Al Harrington to Kevin Garnet. There games are totaly oposite. Plus, last time I checked, Oden is a Rok. Bargs is a 3rd year man. Oden has all the Skills needed to be a dominate Center in the League, and Id Take a Shaq over Dirk Any day. But lets see how they develop. Bargs is a better offensive player. Oden is a better True C. Bargs I dont even consider a C. He is an exact clone of Dirk.

kantarok
02-17-2009, 11:10 PM
Stop with the Andrea Bargnani is going to be the next Dirk until it actually happens. Like if you didnt notice it is his 3rd year now in the league and he is now breaking out of his `rookie slump`
Second of all who ever said Dirk is better than Bosh at that stage in their career. Dirk is unique BUT he is not better than classic power forwards like tim duncan or as good as an athlete like Garnett. To me Bosh is right inbetween those two with his quickness so just know that in about 2 or 3 years Bosh will be the best power forward in the league

ramz.n
02-17-2009, 11:48 PM
Stop with the Andrea Bargnani is going to be the next Dirk until it actually happens. Like if you didnt notice it is his 3rd year now in the league and he is now breaking out of his `rookie slump`
Second of all who ever said Dirk is better than Bosh at that stage in their career. Dirk is unique BUT he is not better than classic power forwards like tim duncan or as good as an athlete like Garnett. To me Bosh is right inbetween those two with his quickness so just know that in about 2 or 3 years Bosh will be the best power forward in the league

doubt that...Tim Duncan has been a double double guy every single year since hes been in the league...hes average more than 2+ blocks every season...Garnett came straight out of highschool and has had the most intensity until today in the NBA..to me Bosh is good ..but hes nowhere close on the defensive end as Duncan and Garnett..i would put them on an even plane on the offensive end..and Bosh from the free throw line...But bosh doesn't seem to be able to lead a team..Duncan leads by doing things that aren't on the score sheet as well as defend..and Garnett does the total opposite by getting in your grill and bringing intensity.

The Wise 1
02-18-2009, 12:10 AM
he didnt bulk up at all
i see no difference in his thickness for the last 3 years

I didnt say he did, I said that he was asked to bulk up. Someone made that point as to why Andrea struggled and I used the exact same point for Bosh. I also see a little difference in his thickness.


I wonder if toronto not being a contender and therefore being able to allow him to play through his mistakes had anything to do with bosh not ever being benched during his early years?

That did have something to do with it, the point I made was that even if he was on the team of last year as a rookie, he wouldnt of been benched because he wasnt that bad and didnt give management a reason to be benched. Your post has nothing to do with my point.

rapsfan11
02-18-2009, 12:11 AM
doubt that...Tim Duncan has been a double double guy every single year since hes been in the league...hes average more than 2+ blocks every season...Garnett came straight out of highschool and has had the most intensity until today in the NBA..to me Bosh is good ..but hes nowhere close on the defensive end as Duncan and Garnett..i would put them on an even plane on the offensive end..and Bosh from the free throw line...But bosh doesn't seem to be able to lead a team..Duncan leads by doing things that aren't on the score sheet as well as defend..and Garnett does the total opposite by getting in your grill and bringing intensity.

the most points garnett ever avg. was 24/game, and that wasn't until his 10 yr. he didn't avg double digits in reb until his 4th yr. he's only had two seasons where he avg. more than 2 blocks a game.. Granted Tim Duncan is a great player and a leader, but he had a great team and has had the same system and coach his whole career. the only reason san antonio got him is cause they had one bad yr.. Bosh at 24 is already at 20 and 9+ a game, and we're ready to get rid of him because supposedly he can't lead a team... Garnett's team only became good when he had sam cassell and latrell sprewell, before that i'm pretty sure he didn't come out of the first round.. and that was about his 8th or 9thyear.. Bargs hasn't proven anything except that one month of january... I believe bargs if he keeps working at his game can be good, but i don't believe that he' is more capable of leading a team or bringing more intensity than bosh... by the way, bosh in his third yr, was an allstar... and he has put on tons of muscle since his first year, also garnett was pretty skinny his first few yrs in the league... ppl need to check their memory banks

rapsfan11
02-18-2009, 12:17 AM
sorry i meant to say muscle instead of weight

ramz.n
02-18-2009, 12:56 AM
the most points garnett ever avg. was 24/game, and that wasn't until his 10 yr. he didn't avg double digits in reb until his 4th yr. he's only had two seasons where he avg. more than 2 blocks a game.. Granted Tim Duncan is a great player and a leader, but he had a great team and has had the same system and coach his whole career. the only reason san antonio got him is cause they had one bad yr.. Bosh at 24 is already at 20 and 9+ a game, and we're ready to get rid of him because supposedly he can't lead a team... Garnett's team only became good when he had sam cassell and latrell sprewell, before that i'm pretty sure he didn't come out of the first round.. and that was about his 8th or 9thyear.. Bargs hasn't proven anything except that one month of january... I believe bargs if he keeps working at his game can be good, but i don't believe that he' is more capable of leading a team or bringing more intensity than bosh... by the way, bosh in his third yr, was an allstar... and he has put on tons of muscle since his first year, also garnett was pretty skinny his first few yrs in the league... ppl need to check their memory banks

edit*...Garnett averaged 24 pts in his 9th season...and a major difference between the 3 was Duncan averaged 3.2 apg in his career and Garnett averaged 4.3..imo bosh will never be that good of a distributor..and you said Garnett didn;t average double digit rebounds until his 4th year in the league, thats the same with chris bosh who averaged a career high with 10.7 rpg..ever since 06-07 and up, Garnett has continued to average double digit rebounds while bosh declined to 8.7 and is averaging 9.5 this year.

canzano55
02-18-2009, 02:09 AM
Bottom line neither are good enough to be franchise players. Bargnani is still learning things from scratch and is already 23 years old while Bosh is likely never going to be a serviceable defensive player.

If I had to pick between the two a year from now its obviously Bargs because Bosh isn't worth 20 million especially when our second best player (undetermined) is either unavailable or underdeveloped.

Unless something miraculous happens and we become contenders in a years time, there's no logic in giving a power forward 20 million when the rest of the team is hovering in uncertainty.

The Wise 1
02-18-2009, 02:31 PM
At first it was really only B2B saying it but now I have heard other people say it to. Do people really think Bosh will get 20 mill a season? Maybe in his last year of the deal he will, but he will not get something like 6 years, 120 mill.

ink
02-18-2009, 02:38 PM
^ With the recent talk that the salary cap may have to be lowered because of the bad economy, it's possible that 2010 may be a buyer's market and the big contracts just may not happen. I was reading on ESPN today that's why the trade deadline action is so depressed this year.